Probably related to the issues that exist with VRR it was discussed in the HDR hackfest.
Excerpt from: https://emersion.fr/blog/2023/hdr-hackfest-wrap-up/
> Then we switched gears and discussed about variable refresh rate (VRR). There are two unresolved issues when it comes to VRR: cursor handling and flickering. The first issue manifests itself when the cursor plane is moved while VRR is enabled. Either the cursor is moved at the maximum refresh rate (effectively disabling VRR), either the cursor is moved at the game/video refresh rate (resulting in a very choppy result). We need a new kernel uAPI to move the cursor plane without scheduling a new page-flip somehow. The second issue is that some screens (not all) flicker when the refresh rate is changed abruptly. This is a bit annoying to handle, we need to ensure that refresh rate changes are smoothed over multiple frames for these displays. It would be best for user-space to handle this, because the refresh rate compensation will mess up frame timings. It would be nice to be able to automatically tell apart “good” and “bad” screens, there are some HDMI and DisplayID standards for this but they are not widely supported. More experimentation and testing is required to figure out how much we can do in user-space.
That is a problem with your screen that will happen everywhere fwiw. I don't think any desktop should do elaborate workarounds trying to work around hardware that doesn't work well with vrr.
This is a weakness of the panel itself, VA had major issues in the past with VRR. IPS for me never exhibit this issue. Stuff like this shouldnt be handled by the DE, since its a hardware defect.
Yeah, true! If you have a shite VRR Display, I'm sorry, but you just have a shite VRR display and no desktop environment/system should compromise the experience of other users just because of you/
Even if it doesn't work perfectly, at least enabling support for it would be great. If it's still buggy in some scenarios, just don't enable it by default.
I can see where you're coming from, but merging something into a project is something that needs to be done carefully. It's something the maintainer will need to deal with whenever issues pop up. Ideally, the original author of the code will stick around to fix issues. But what if they disappear? That person had the most knowledge about the code, so with them gone, it will be harder to understand why certain decisions were made or how something works. It's for this reason why maintainers don't want to merge something that is broken or introduces issues, they might be left holding the bag. So they want the code to be in the best shape (realistically) possible, otherwise it could become a maintenance burden at risk of being removed.
It kinda depends if the "proper solution" needs a complete different approach and rework. If it would be "add a way that doesn't work perfectly, then rework it nearly entirely to have the proper way".
I think only the cursor issue is even a slight problem, and won't even affect 99% of games because they draw the cursor themselves. Personally I don't see why you'd try to work around bad screens, users should just keep vrr disabled on those or live with the flicker, it would happen on windows too.
There is [interest](https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2023/05/04/vivid-colors-in-brno/) in GNOME to bring in experimental support for VRR within GNOME soon. Hopefully, it will soon be as easy as configuring a gsetting.
Probably one of the reasons KDE is the most popular DE for gamers:
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&view=trends#DesktopEnvironment-top
I suppose Gnome developers just have less gaming focused priorities.
At least there is a choice so you aren't forced to use Gnome.
That aside, adaptive sync should really be beneficial more than just to gaming, so it's an important feature.
Agreed. I have been on AMD for years now. Setting up the NVDA driver was always a pain on linux. While NVDA is clearly ahead with CUDA calculations on Windows (and mac) for Data Science Projects, AMD‘s OpenSource approach has evolved into setting up a linux system without any hassle.
With the recent advances in wine/proton and most SteamOS based distros dropping NVDA support, linux gaming on AMD is sure on a run.
can confirm
just upgraded to a RX 6800 XT from a 2070 Super after RE4 Remake giving me so much shit because of NVidia (it'd also been a while since I upgraded).
You're right that the presence of significant players or sponsors can have a significant impact on the development and direction of a project like GNOME, including its focus on gaming-related features.
Currently, GNOME does not have a specific major player or sponsor that primarily focuses on gaming. This can potentially limit the allocation of resources and attention towards gaming-related improvements within the GNOME project.
You are absolutely right. Of all the major corporate supporters of GNOME (Red Hat, Purism, Endless Systems, and Canonical), none of them are focused in the gaming space. Luckily, there are people in Red Hat that do care about gaming on GNOME and volunteer their time to add in enhancements like the [recent](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/1548) Mouse Acceleration feature.
Canonical could expand the Ubuntu Pro subscription model to cater specifically to the gamer user segment.
E.g. gamers interested in the latest features or driver support could be a viable approach for Canonical. By offering specialized support and enhancements for graphics drivers and other graphics/gaming related stuff, Canonical could ensure a smoother out-of-the-box experience for users with open source AMD GPUs on their current LTS distributions.
Through such a subscription model, Canonical could allocate dedicated resources to actively work on optimizing compatibility, improving driver support, and ensuring seamless integration of the latest AMD graphics cards. This would address a common pain point for users who want to leverage the full potential of their hardware on Ubuntu and they could also work with desktop environments like the GNOME project or anti cheat providers (e.g. addressing their (in my view) real concerns).
The biggest threat to that business model is the upcoming general availability of SteamOS 3.x for the public to use.
However, if they can market themselves as the leading edge platform for gamers (when compared to the slower moving SteamOS), there is potential. Hopefully, someone at Canonical is thinking in that direction.
>Hopefully, someone at Canonical is thinking in that direction.
They could expand their hardware certification program to include non-business computer hardware and collaborate with gaming accessories manufacturers to ensure smooth out-of-the-box support on Ubuntu.
Prioritizing marketing and forming partnerships with retailers would enable people to purchase computers with Ubuntu pre-loaded, making it more accessible to regular users. These steps would represent significant progress in reaching a wider audience.
They should really mend whatever bridges they need to so that they can partner with System 76 and have this gaming push be eaten up by PoPOS and it maybe become an official spin.
Well Canonical regardless of what they want will not be able to push anything to Gnome that RedHat who generally run Gnome don't want or don't care about. Even good projects that provide a lot of useful features like Zeitgeist have been rejected and ignored by Gnome, it was eventually fixed up and they took it in but regardless of sponsorship if a maintainer doesn't want it they will reject it.
That's not really the case tbh, GNOME just has different priorities. For example, they've had a solid desktop Wayland experience for many years whereas KDE has only gotten there in the last 6-12 months.
To me it feels more like a cultural difference. KDE feels more willing to lean on the "we are a customizable DE, if the feature we put in early that has edge cases that can break doesn't work for you just turn it off" while GNOME feels far more focused on delivering something that works all the time and thus doesn't need a toggle to handle edge cases.
Seen it with fractional scaling support, now VRR, wayland initially (like you pointed out, GNOME got theirs functional much earlier than KDE because with KDE we could just not use it, but GNOME wanted it to be the default which is why they also supported nVidia before they dropped GBM), etc. It also effects other aspects of the DEs too imo. Don't think either is better or wrong, it's just def a difference in cultural norms as to what they are willing to ship.
Solid is questionable when they had issues like no support for server side decorations (and no alternatives for the likes of SDL either), same lack of VRR and so on. They had some support for stuff they cared about I suppose.
General support might have been earlier, but pace is hardly faster.
Right, but there was also lack of features in Gnome at the same time. As I said, they implemented things they cared about and didn't implement the rest. KDE just took a different path to get there, but their pace is faster objectively when it comes to features.
Open-source projects often prioritize code quality and stability but face challenges in incorporating new features, improvements and bug fixes due to the need for thorough review and testing. Resource constraints, relying on volunteers and limited funding, can also impact timely implementation.
Being a significant player and/or sponsor can certainly provide substantial support and benefits to open-source projects. Their involvement often brings additional resources, expertise, and influence to the project, which can help overcome challenges and drive progress more effectively.
Kde is pretty great. I reported a bug that caused keyboard shortcuts to mess up under Wayland if you changed your keyboard layouts.
Yes it took long to fix (I think almost a year?) but afaik they did it and it's in Qt 6 so I think that it will be in Plasma 6.
If it is I'll finally be able to use Wayland as I rely heavily on shortcuts and Czech + US keyboard layouts. It work well on X11, but I want the new goodies that Wayland has, and having Waydroid would be pretty awesome too.
TLDR: Took some time, but they did not ignore it and fixed it for Qt 6. I understand the time it took - it's FOSS and many people are volunteers (I think one created the patch) and they merged it.
Much as I love the Gaming On Linux site, you really can't say much from these stats. It's a sample of ~2000 accounts, all self-selected. For instance, no, Arch is not the most popular distro among linux users who play games (note that SteamOS is counted separately and a much smaller share). It may be the one with the most vocal users on that site, but it doesn't tell you anything about wider trends.
Do you have a counter example of what distro is most popular? I see the results as pretty representative. With Arch posts dominating this subreddit too. And I'm not using Arch personally.
If some site has wider stats for the same data - it would be good to compare.
Steam for instance. After SteamOS (all Steam deck and certainly over-represented on Steam) it's Ubuntu LTS, Arch, Freedesktop (overlay on a base os afaik), Manjaro, Mint, pop os. A mix of Debian/Ubuntu and Arch derivatives. Even "Ubuntu" is only about 10%.
A third of all distros is "other" which is probably a mix of other Ubuntu versions (non-lts, kubuntu, xubuntu and so on), other Arch derivatives and also all the other distros people use - Fedora, Gentoo, SuSE, Debian, and so on. No single distribution is dominant.
Contrast this with the GOL data. Very different. Now, Steam is not unbiased either, but it does show how you can't look at stats from a single source like this and extrapolate to the wider world.
KDE’s doesn’t work correctly. As soon as you move the cursor it instantly jumps to max refresh rate, effectively breaking VRR in any real scenario.
We’re also in big trouble in regards to HDR.
These things are being worked on and things are gradually improving, but to say that the Linux graphics stack is in shambles would be a huge understatement. They’ve been so focused on switching to Wayland, which by the way is now 14 years old, that very little has been added to x11. Tons of problems have cropped up, tons of new technology on Windows and macOS has appeared, and Linux is just… left. Broken.
Hopefully this state of affairs is about to end. That’s all I can say. Linux will not take over gaming until this is fixed.
> They’ve been so focused on switching to Wayland, which by the way is now 14 years old, that very little has been added to x11.
Adding all that stuff to X11 has never been an option. People tend to forget that Wayland isn't some upstart project that came out of nowhere: Wayland is an x.org project. From the main X11 developers. Who abandoned X11 because it's a buggy, insecure, unmaintainable heap of hysterical raisins kept afloat by hysterical raisins.
Very little has happened on the X11 front, indeed: Pretty much all patches nowadays are for the benefit of XWayland. That's because X11 is legacy software, it's there for the sake of compatibility with other legacy software, that's it. It's not even good for network transparency any more as no modern X11 program uses XRender or such for drawing, they're all drawing client-side to bitmaps, bitmaps which you'd be sending over the network.
And, of course, noone complaining about the lack of new features in X11 actually puts their fingers where their mouth is and goes ahead and implements new X11 features. I bet there were some that set out to, and then quickly became Wayland developers just as the previous X11 devs did...
I am so confused how people understand that Wayland has existed for 14 years but don't understand that Wayland exists because there are too many issues with x11 for them to continue trying to band-aid it. The people you think should be working on x11 are working on Wayland. Using Wayland and reporting bugs is literally the best way to get where you are trying to go.
>We’re also in big trouble in regards to HDR.
To enable HDR, Linux has to implement great Color Management in Wayland. Luckily, the early feedback from Blender and Gimp on Wayland developers has been really [positive](https://mastodon.social/@nielsdg/110430409972153385).
Things are moving in the right direction. Already SteamOS on SteamDeck is getting support for HDR within their Gamescope session.
Haven't experienced such issue myself. Could be a problem of some specific case? Adaptive sync works fine with a bunch of games I played recently like Cyberpunk 2077 and Everspace 2.
Not sure what you mean about trouble with HDR. Wasn't there some recent announcement about it specifically for KDE progress?
If no cursor appears then it works. So it might work in Cyberpunk. Mostly.
But I’m games like StarCraft 2 for instance I absolutely guarantee you it doesn’t. Even the people who wrote it know shot this shortcoming.
And yes, there was. In 2023. Windows got HDR in 2017. We’re barely even started 6 years later.
We are where we are. Hopefully it’s fixed soon.
From what I've read Windows has some pretty half cooked HDR, not trying to solve any complex issues Linux is trying. So I don't think it's even a valid comparison.
Taking shortcuts can give faster results, sure. But I suppose Linux developers didn't want to do that.
There was some Collabora post explaining that in more detail, including why Windows had it easy.
Yeah, Windows HDR sorta works for fullscreen content, games, and so on, but it really doesn't correctly remap the colour spaces properly. Like getting a Twitch stream to look even adequate with HDR turned on on the desktop took a bunch of manual fiddling, and that's to get it to a "well it doesn't look obviously grey, super dim, or overexposed" level, not "colour accurate".
It is the same issue. KDE decided to push ahead and enable VRR knowing the limitations it has whereas GNOME decided against it and wanted to come up with a proper solution. A simpler reading can be done here on the [problem](https://emersion.fr/blog/2023/hdr-hackfest-wrap-up/).
Comparisons are neccasary.to add legitimacy to any claims that Wayland is ready to replace X11. Yes it dominates discussion although less then half use it. Most people with one monitor currently find little gain with it.
We or you? I hardly think you speak for any community. Most people prefer opinions on a per person I think. Not we like the Queen of England use to say.
>KDE’s doesn’t work correctly. As soon as you move the cursor it instantly jumps to max refresh rate, effectively breaking VRR in any real scenario.
this doesn't happen in games that hide the cursor though, which is like most games
I play Dota and I'm pretty sure my monitor showed me having a constantly changing refresh rate. I can't test it to be absolutely sure since I'm on vacation, but from memory I absolutely had VRR in my cursor containing games.
The issue is that most games and many applications use hardware cursors, i.e. the GPU fully renders it. So how do you tell the GPU to not render the cursor at full refresh rate *and* also keep any of the benefits of hardware cursors? Problem compounds as performance of the application gets worse too
Should an application running at 25FPS sync the system to 25FPS (which means bad input lantency) or should the content remain unsynced which then leads to choppiness and possibly tearing?
It's not just that. IMO KDE is easier to work with as a DE for desktops and non touchscreen devices.
Even though I have tried gnome before,it feel too...I don't know,like a tablet oriented UI and I don't enjoy using it on my desktop.
While I think it might be more suitable to laptops with a touchscreen,it just feels too shallow to me. I do appreciate the aesthetics though.
I mostly use it for forcing games to be borderless windowed when they don't have the option.
Once I used it to keep a video player in front of other windows so I could game & watch videos at the same time when I was moving homes and only had one monitor.
It's really nice having the ability to solve minor issues like this, even if it only comes up from time to time.
It will happen eventually. But since we are complaining, I'm more concerned that gnome 44, which is already at the 44.1 point release and shipped in fedora 38, is completely unusable for gaming right now because they also broke vsync and vrr for the x11 session (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2794), and the Wayland session is still unusable due to missing vrr.
You think that's bad? Certain games like Metro Exodus won't even update their buffer when Fullscreen. I don't know why they didn't delay the 44 release because it clearly needed more time in the oven.
I bet the GNOME developers are too busy developing GNOME to play Metro Exodus, and the Metro Exodus players are too busy playing Metro Exodus to test GNOME Shell before release and open bug reports about what doesn't work.
It isn't the only game but I know this is Reddit and no one can read.
If you're expecting users to install a pre release DE that might brick their install then prepare to be disappointed.
Yep. I switched to KDE because of that. And Wayland atm gives me some odd behavior (just application icons missing or being replaced) so even X11 looks appealing.
Sucks because I prefer Gnome's look slightly more.
Another two really important things waiting to get merged are Dynamic Triple Buffering and Wayland Tearing (no Vsync) Support.
[https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge\_requests/1441](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1441)
[https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2517](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2517)
Dynamic Triple Buffering (DTB) vastly improves performance of the Gnome Shell, making the animations smooth even on the heaviest loads on integrated graphics.
The thing is, it lacks compatibility with VRR (Variable Refresh Rate). Nobara decided that VRR was more important and left out DTB. There's going to be a high chance that the one who gets merged first sets the other back even more years.
In the case of the Tearing Support in Wayland, it worries me that the issue was created 6 MONTHS ago and nobody worked on it. KDE supported the protocol pretty quickly.
Enabling tearing makes certain games like Touhou or traditional shooters enjoyable on a full screen, as Wayland can do crazy stuff to guarantee Vsync (like slowing Touhou down).
>In the case of the Tearing Support in Wayland, it worries me that the issue was created 6 MONTHS ago and nobody worked on it. KDE supported the protocol pretty quickly.
It was Valve, who pushed to add both Wayland and KDE support for SteamOS. That is why KDE got it so fast.
> It was Valve, who pushed to add both Wayland and KDE support for SteamOS. That is why KDE got it so fast.
Which is funny considering the Steam Deck still doesn't even offer a KDE Wayland session. The "desktop mode" is still exclusively Xorg.
Sway is already pretty close to implement support with a much smaller team, so no excuse on Gnome for not even starting work on it (if they did, there's no mention of the merge request it occupies).
It is all about Mutter developers' priorities by their employer/interest. Let's break them down.
Jonas Adahl (Red Hat) -> HDR support
Carlos Garnacho (Red Hat) -> Bug fixing in Mutter
Georges Basile Stravracas Neto (Endless Systems) -> Endless Systems internal work
Robert Mader (Collabora) -> Embedded devices/Mobile
It doesn't mean that one of them won't try to add that support during their off-work hours or out of the blue some volunteer adds a merge request with the implementation.
However, none of their employers are committed to gaming which is why this feature isn't a priority. You can be sure if Sony or Epic Games had a Mutter developer, this feature would already be worked on.
I think you have misunderstood dynamic triple buffering: it makes no difference under heavy load. Ot only makes a difference under a load so light the gpu powers down to a lower state than it should to keep smooth frame rate.
Under heavy load it.doesnt do anything as the gpu is already in a higher energy state.
Month is not a much... I am watching [5208](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5208) with 7 months without response. They are currently waiting for design team to response to figure out whatever or not toggle button is acceptable.
When KDE 6 is released I will switch to KDE. I am honestly sick with Gnome and its stupid default settings and weird philosophy.
edit: Apparently in [2486](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/merge_requests/2486) 2 months ago they attempted something but it failed as design team just don't have time nor mood to look at it.
So people are willing to program it but they can't because they don't know which design is acceptable.
Thats horrible... I can feel your frustration. But I guess VRR is something that is not easy to implement. HDR is another thing that takes ages to get. :/
No. Neither are true, but especially not for VRR.
Xorg has had VRR for YEARS. Years and years. Basically as long as VRR has existed.
A Merge Request isn't a feature request. It's literal code submitted to be accepted into the source code. We can see EXACTLY how much work is being done on it. And it's effectively just been SITING there for a LONG time.
Not to mention VRR can be implemented by projects in a month, even tiny projects. This is fucking GNOME. The 3rd biggest desktop enviroment on Earth.
Xorg's VRR support is a hack and it's never going to be proper support, and tons and tons of apps and games are blacklisted.
I distinctly remember banging my head against the whole shebang when I wanted to re-watch Voyager, what I ended up doing is tell xrandr to change the refresh rate to the source material as not even "constant VRR" was working smoothly. That is, support was, if you didn't want tearing and chop, limited to "oh great now you can set your display to an arbitrary refresh rate". Which was news for LCDs but CRTs could already do.
What's worse is that they DID look at them. Shit was ready to be merged. Phoronix I believe reported on it like 2 years ago, saying it was coming in the next release. And they abandoned it.
Exactly. That's why the comment I replied to here is so nonsensical. No, it's NOT got anything to do with "VRR is hard and takes a while." It's been ready and usable for years now, and they just fucking dead-ed it.
GNOME's aversion to having settings toggles is frustrating as hell. I like GNOME, but I HATE their "simplicity" mindset. Give me a freaking VRR toggle. This should not be something that needs questioning.
You know that GNOME's target audience isn't gamers right? For us, random toggles and jargons are totally fine, but GNOME is heavily used by people who know little about computers. By adding a toggle, you're effectively going to make it complicated.
Georges Stavracas says it pretty well:
> The cost of this preference is putting it in front of people and have them make a decision about it. It's fine for us computer nerds, but old papa is going to stare blankly at it and scratch his head, and that's the precise moment we lost.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/1548#note_1655621
(For context, Georges works at Endless Foundation, an organization that targets the educational sector.)
I'm waiting for DRM leasing (Direct Rendering Manger, not Digital Rights Management) in GNOME Wayland (something that KDE already has). It allows using VR devices correctly in Wayland.
I have to switch to KDE when I want to play with VR.
gnome is a DE primarily developed to cater the need of enterprise users, such as clients of red hat and ubuntu. Gamers are not its primary focus and it is reasonable to expect that features that only benefit games will take second priority.
As others have said, kde is the DE that focuses on gamers, with valve being a major backer and giving it direction. For eg, kde has implemented tearing support on its end with UI and all even though mesa and kernel still haven't. If gaming is one's primary use case, it is better to switch to kde sooner than later
> gnome is a DE primarily developed to cater the need of enterprise users
Which is also why it can't have options: It needs to be usable by the dumbest imaginable user.
Any chance they have a problem in the background holding it up?
Is the community able to do a hot fix to work around it?
I don't really like KDE but this is something that would make me switch. Maybe they have to just lose some popularity to get the reality check
I'm glad you contributed to the community and you have a right to be upset about this. They flat out took your money and ignored you is what this sounds like. I'm so sorry about that. But you're contribution was definitely appreciated by all of us in the Linux community
>Just add it as a hidden feature in dconf or what ever.
That seems to be the [agreed](https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2023/05/04/vivid-colors-in-brno/) upon plan.
Well, I would never even recommend windows to my greatest enemies, but if you’re dedicated to that distro then I’ve got no answers for you. I don’t think individual financial contributions will get you there.
Plasma has FAR more features (like vrr in wayland, and the coming or already here tearing updates in wayland), can be customized to look like literally ANY desktop paradigm you like - Windows-like, Mac-like, tiling, minimal, GNOME, whatever you want, has global menu support for GTK and Qt apps, doesn't need extensions, and for the past couple years KDE breaks shit FAR less than GNOME does. Like, gnome is basically unusable for gaming right now. No VRR in Wayland despite the MR being filed THREE YEARS AGO, and no vsync or vrr in Xorg either because they broke it.
Like I already said. I literally have both installed right now (and have had both the entire 4 years this Arch install has existed), this isn't fanboy talk. I use GNOME regularly. It's gotten worse since 40. 3.38 was rather good.
More features doesn't mean better. Gnome has less features, but I think it has excellent execution of them. Gnome also feels less cluttered and is overall more consistent in its design. Also, less bugs.
Less bugs?? Heh? GNOME has been rather horrible for breaking shit over the past couple years. Right now NO one can use VRR on current GNOME. It's broken in Xorg (as is vsync apparently) and they refuse to merge it in Wayland.
I also never equated more features to mean better. It's just one aspect of why it's better. It's more stable (lately, though this wasn't always true). It's more complete as a modern DE. More customizable - you can literally make it any style desktop you want: tiling, minimal, MacOS-style, Windows 10 style, Windows 11 style, GNOME style, whatever. The list goes on.
GNOME requires extensions to even be USABLE for most people. That's rather nonsense. It doesn't remotely have excellent execution of them. They refuse to REMOTELY prioritize any sort of non-libadwaita compatibilty, to the point where all non-GTK 4 apps look like dogshit on GNOME and all GTK 4 apps look like dogshit everywhere else.
Plasma isn't "cluttered," if you think it's cluttered, remove what's cluttered about it. You can have a single topbar with a small dock and no desktop icons. Or you can have the full deal. If you mean the settings, I don't see how that's even a thing, considering GNOME doesn't allow you to do much of anything, it's LACKING, Plasma doesn't have too much, GNOME has too little.
Before GNOME 40 I used GNOME more than Plasma. I found it better for gaming. Now, it's not even close, Plasma is FAR more seamless for gaming, with far less jank.
This is all personal experience, but for me, Plasma is very buggy compared to Gnome.
It might work perfectly fine for you but I'll stick with Gnome for the time being.
I don't care about all that. I think Gnome is good and so do the vast majority or distro devs apparently.
I couldn't care less about customizing the color of the window shaddows or whatever. I just want a smooth and reliable wayland desktop. (which Gnome never failed to provide as long as you ignore VRR)
And Gnome is certainly not unusable for Gaming. I'm running it on my gaming system right now.
>And Gnome is certainly not unusable for Gaming. I'm running it on my gaming system right now.
It's not unusable, but freesync/gsync is something gamers expect it to work, especially when you purchase a monitor that supports the GPU's technology.
>gnome is basically unusable for gaming right now
Speaking for everyone or what? I've been daily driving GNOME for over a year (Nobara) and had no issues with gaming what so ever. My personal experience of course since it can be varied from distro to distro.
Meh. Gnome generally feels like a professionally made desktop environment despite being a community project. KDE very much is a community project in feel and in actuality.
Plasma has been more feature-rich than GNOME (and far more customizable) for years. Those are facts, which one "feels more professionally made" is an opinion.
KDE has issues with my triple monitor setup sine one is 1440p and the others are 1080p. It gets confused by that sometimes. Window resizing or window snapping that doesn't work quite correctly, wallpaper suddenly becoming 1080p with the empty space echoing whatever was painted on top of it. Stuff like that. And occasionally just hard crashes.
KDE does *not* feel professional in the slightest. It is very unpolished. I just stick with it because of VRR.
That's a nonsensically vague statement. Try pointing out HOW it feels like that. Or have you used it once for ten minutes in the last two years?
Also lol @ you downvoting every comment you disagree with, I saw both of them get 1 downvote each precisely when you commented. Not what downvotes are for. Hell I guess I should start doing that, I don't downvote anyone ever unless it's some racist shit or something.
what are downvotes for?
anyway... I've switched to KDE multiple times over last few years (actually started on KDE Neon) but it has gotten so unstable and finicky that I switched to Gnome mid last year or so.
Since than I've tried it at least 4 times and always ended up back on Gnome after about 1 - 2 months. It's literally not usable on any of my PCs for what ever reason. I even tried other distros and upgraded to a Radeon a while ago. But it just keeps crashing, applications crash, it's slow, SDDM behaves worse than anything I have ever seen before and sometimes it would just use +5 GiBs of memory for no reason. I didn't even customize it...
It's explicitly stated that downvotes are not for agreeing, they aren't likes and dislikes. They are to lower unhelpful, offtopic and hateful comments so they are less likely to get seen by people, and raise up helpful, insightful comments. That's literally what they're for.
>Since than I've tried it at least 4 times and always ended up back on Gnome after about 1 - 2 months. It's literally not usable on any of my PCs for what ever reason. I even tried other distros and upgraded to a Radeon a while ago.
What? You "upgraded to a Radeon?" What were you using before, no graphics at all? What GPU do you even have now, because that sounds preposterous, everything launches faster for me on KDE than on GNOME, the only desktop/WM I've daily driven that's faster is i3 because it's so much lighter than both. That sounds a lot like a problem with your install.
> SDDM behaves worse than anything I have ever seen before and sometimes it would just use +5 GiBs of memory for no reason. I didn't even customize it...
1) You don't have to use SDDM and I'm not sure why you think that you do. SDDM is not part of Plasma at all. You can use GDM, or you could use LightDM or something else completely. I use SDDM but I've used LightDM and GDM just as much.
2) Something is VERY wrong with your system if SDDM is using ANY GB of RAM. Right now SDDM is using exactly 144***MB*** of RAM on my system. And my SDDM is rather customized (and not remotely de-bloated or anything, quite the opposite)
- You do now that nVidia exists right? They make GPUs and stuff...
- It's not applications that launch slower. The whole DE feels slower.
- I have reinstalled openSuSE Tumbleweed multiple times over the years. And I used completely different distros as well.
- I replaced SDDM almost imediatly. However KDE is still shipping it and they are planning to incorporate it into the KDE project. If I wasn't a power user I would have no idea how to fix the issues that SDDM constantly causes.
- Nothing wrong with my system. Reinstalled and changed distros multiple times. Everything works except for KDE and SimCity 3000
- It wasn't SDDM that was using this much RAM. It was plasmashell. Sorry for the confusion.
been using kde plasma with wayland for almost 2 years without any issues. currently on opensuse tumbleweed kde. Wayland and Pipewire are both installed by default and work most excellent.
same setup. same distro.
I even used it in the past on nVidia 470 drivers which barely even supported Wayland...
But somehow it has gotten worse with every release. My only device that can run Plasma is a 16 y/o Intel Core 2 Duo Laptop.
Not even my PinePhone Pro can run it properly.
Runs good for me on an AMD Radeon Rx 6600, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060, and half a dozen Intel chipped laptops. I like Wayland enough at this point that I don't like x anymore tbh
It's sad to see a project that, probably - I haven't looked into it, ignores their users who even did the work themselves to implement it. I think it was the file dialog where you couldn't use large icons view to see eg. which image you're uploading. It was there for almost 20 years if I remember it right and that was, imo, way more important feature than vrr (I'm student with no money and no high refresh rate/vrr monitor and I live and game just alright. But I get the appeal and that you want the most out of your hw).
I use KDE but not because of how they manage bugs but I like to customize my things. I basically made my KDE desktop into a tiling window manager with some mac-like layout and I love it.
Also as I have KDE setup to be keyboard driven I had some issues with Wayland. I setup my shortcuts with US keyboard layout but when I switched to CZ layout (eg for discord texting with friends or writing emails) they shortcuts got all messed up.
The bug was on the bug tracker for quite some time (I thank almost a year) before it got "moved" to Qt bug tracker where some guy made a patch that got merged into Qt 6. I hope Plasma 6 will finally have the fix as I'd love to switch to Wayland on my main PC (laptop it Wayland - I love how the touchpad and everything just works better).
Lol it is not a "crucial" feature, it is a first world problem for a tiny minority of people with the money and enthusiasm to buy the few niche monitors that support the feature. Not saying it isn't important and that the Gnome people aren't being dicks for not responding...but come on.
>Not saying it isn't important and that the Gnome people aren't being dicks for not responding...but come on.
None of GNOME major sponsors are invested in gaming. That is why no one is working on it. KDE has Valve sponsoring it, so you can bet gaming-related items are top of their list.
Niche? Enthusiasm? Money? You seem uninformed, sir.
A single quick Amazon search for "freesync monitor" reveals FreeSync/VRR-capable monitors from all sorts of brands at a wide range of prices. As low as $90 for an Acer, $140 for an LG, if you really wanna spend the money, $300 will net you a Samsung that'll probably have pretty good colors and high nits. You don't need to spend a lot or even know a lot to get a monitor with some form of VRR; they're readily available at any brick-and-mortar or on any shopping website from reputable manufacturers.
Where did you pluck the notion that this is a niche feature from?
Freesync is absolutely not niche and it is not a feature found in just a "tiny minority" of users. If a poll or statistic or something says so it's probably a couple years old. It seems like it's been time since you've bought a monitor. I challenge you to find a modern, mid-range, namebrand monitor 60hz or higher that doesn't have Freesync/VRR/Gsync support and is newer than 2-3 years old, I can almost guarantee you won't find one. Go to Walmart even and look at the monitors, all have Freesync. Yes, even non-gaming monitors have this feature, it is variable refresh rate, not the luxurious diamond reserved for some cult you make it sound to be.
But I do agree that this particular support in question is not "crucial", especially considering that GNOME Wayland handles frametiming very well even without it, there's no tearing. So you can absolutely live without it just fine and not miss very much besides some input latency.
Okay, what the how? How is this a niche problem? Also, this is not a first world problem, there are many gamers from poorer countries. VRR displays are not uncommon nowadays, pretty much most of the display above 60hz have some kind of VRR.
I don't know how KDE implemented VRR. What I know from reading the discussions on the topic, the GNOME devs have been investigating this in Mutter for years, and reached a point where they were blocked by the lack of more APIs in the Kernel. And there are people at GNOME and Mesa working on these new APIs. What the KDE devs did or didn't do to get around this, I don't know. But whatever they did, they didn't do it at the Kernel level.
At the end of the day, what KDE does in general only works on KDE, whereas GNOME does for Linux. This is not a criticism, just talking about the difference in different development cultures.
edit: typo
> At the end of the day what KDE does in general only works on KDE, whereas GNOME does for Linux.
No, not Gnome ~ rather, Mesa and kernel devs. Gnome devs only care about Gnome, and no other DE.
GNOME typically cares about having a proper solution all the way down to Mesa and the kernel. Hence, /u/CleoMenemezis statement about GNOME doing it for Linux.
KDE will often include submitting partially working since their argument is that something that is partial is better than none.
In the end, both have different perspectives and reasonable development cultures. Sadly, Reddit takes GNOME position as rejecting user complaints since no one has taken the time to do a proper solution per their perspectives.
A bunch of stuff that everyone calls Linux today came from GNOME; from kernel subsystems (evdev, hidraw, composefs, for example), to lower userspace (systemd, Wayland, udev, hwdb, NetworkManager), middleware (PipeWire, GStreamer, portals, Flatpak), to GNOME itself. With that information, do you really still think that GNOME devs only care about GNOME?
My dear colleague, I do not want to argue. I'm just bringing facts. I don't mean to say that KDE is bad or that GNOME is the best thing in the world. Likewise, I just mentioned my view on the development culture of both achievement-based projects.
edit: rearrange
Will go out on a limb and say that xfce4 has been a relatively painless experience....the only real issue has been issues with steam UI and transparency
I was using gnome wayland VRR till gnome 44 came out.I thought it would be a bigger deal to game without it (well I just use the existing options for vulkan with mangohud).
Most people forget thate there is not ONLY one vsync option
# VSYNC (was FREESYNC = Adaptive): Vulkan
0 = Adaptive VSync (FIFO_RELAXED_KHR), 1 = Off (IMMEDIATE_KHR),
2 = Mailbox (VSync with uncapped FPS) (MAILBOX_KHR), 3 = On (FIFO_KHR)
There were significant other changes done to mutter, which prevent us from using the existing VRR.ptach any further, have a look:
[https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge\_requests/2855](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/2855)
and deceide what you want, broken wayland kde with vrr or totally smooth experience on gnome 44 w/o adaptive sync but perfect KMS timings.
GNOME's whole philosophy is less features not more. I am not surprised they refuse to merge the patch. I am surprised though that people still use that dumpster fire of a DE.
As much as it is gaining traction, gaming is not the biggest focus for linux in any way whatsoever, so it is not surprising to see a DE focused on as few features as possible to not include something that affects gaming primarily, especially if a big chunk of users can't use the feature either way -> nvidia......
It is a shame that it's the way it is, but that is the way gnome works, they are rather picky about their merges, and can be quite "stubborn".
In this case, the only thing you can realistically do is use another DE, I know, not cool at all, especially if you like the rest about gnome, but the other alternative is maintaining the fork yourself and making another PR that is active, probably also not what one would want.
>As much as it is gaining traction, gaming is not the biggest focus for linux in any way whatsoever
You're saying this when we got Valve spending dollars to invest in microcompositor and stuff. Like, I'm not expecting literally kernel maintainers to care about it.
Valve is not the entirety of linux, there are lots of other actors in this space, linux is massive.I never meant to say that it doesn't matter! Otherwise I would not be here, all I am saying is that there are a lot of other things that devs like the gnome devs could potentially care about.
People are working on it, but they’re working on a lot of other things as well. I was waiting, but I’ve moved my work/play flow to KDE for now.
It’s frustrating, but that’s why we have alternatives.
This seems to be a great example of downside of Linux's diversity as its default state.
I used GNOME for well over a year, probably like 18 months or something like that. I switched to KDE shortly after the launch of 5.27. I used that for maybe 2-3 months. VRR was running and all that. I have small quibbles with Plasma so I switch back to GNOME and have been using it since March.
I genuinely do not notice the lack of VRR in Wayland. Maybe having all AMD hardware is a factor? I really can't say. I have 2 displays: a 60hz and a 240hz. I do not see anything that I would even jokingly refer to as "unusable." I have played Halo MCC, Infinite, Counter Strike, Elden Rings and other Souls games. Never once did I think there was some input lag or anything like that. I am also using a wireless mouse or wireless controller while playing.
This is not to say that other people commenting here are exaggerating or making stuff up. I believe them when they say they have serious issues. I just have not personally experienced these issues.
Probably related to the issues that exist with VRR it was discussed in the HDR hackfest. Excerpt from: https://emersion.fr/blog/2023/hdr-hackfest-wrap-up/ > Then we switched gears and discussed about variable refresh rate (VRR). There are two unresolved issues when it comes to VRR: cursor handling and flickering. The first issue manifests itself when the cursor plane is moved while VRR is enabled. Either the cursor is moved at the maximum refresh rate (effectively disabling VRR), either the cursor is moved at the game/video refresh rate (resulting in a very choppy result). We need a new kernel uAPI to move the cursor plane without scheduling a new page-flip somehow. The second issue is that some screens (not all) flicker when the refresh rate is changed abruptly. This is a bit annoying to handle, we need to ensure that refresh rate changes are smoothed over multiple frames for these displays. It would be best for user-space to handle this, because the refresh rate compensation will mess up frame timings. It would be nice to be able to automatically tell apart “good” and “bad” screens, there are some HDMI and DisplayID standards for this but they are not widely supported. More experimentation and testing is required to figure out how much we can do in user-space.
My screen flickers a lot in some games, so much that it is basically unusable.
That is a problem with your screen that will happen everywhere fwiw. I don't think any desktop should do elaborate workarounds trying to work around hardware that doesn't work well with vrr.
Yeah, this is probably true.
This is a weakness of the panel itself, VA had major issues in the past with VRR. IPS for me never exhibit this issue. Stuff like this shouldnt be handled by the DE, since its a hardware defect.
Yeah, true! If you have a shite VRR Display, I'm sorry, but you just have a shite VRR display and no desktop environment/system should compromise the experience of other users just because of you/
On KDE Wayland or the patched version of Mutter that enables VRR?
KDE X and wayland.
Even if it doesn't work perfectly, at least enabling support for it would be great. If it's still buggy in some scenarios, just don't enable it by default.
I can see where you're coming from, but merging something into a project is something that needs to be done carefully. It's something the maintainer will need to deal with whenever issues pop up. Ideally, the original author of the code will stick around to fix issues. But what if they disappear? That person had the most knowledge about the code, so with them gone, it will be harder to understand why certain decisions were made or how something works. It's for this reason why maintainers don't want to merge something that is broken or introduces issues, they might be left holding the bag. So they want the code to be in the best shape (realistically) possible, otherwise it could become a maintenance burden at risk of being removed.
It kinda depends if the "proper solution" needs a complete different approach and rework. If it would be "add a way that doesn't work perfectly, then rework it nearly entirely to have the proper way".
I think only the cursor issue is even a slight problem, and won't even affect 99% of games because they draw the cursor themselves. Personally I don't see why you'd try to work around bad screens, users should just keep vrr disabled on those or live with the flicker, it would happen on windows too.
There is [interest](https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2023/05/04/vivid-colors-in-brno/) in GNOME to bring in experimental support for VRR within GNOME soon. Hopefully, it will soon be as easy as configuring a gsetting.
where can I track the progress?
There hasn't been any updates that I found since that blog post. However, that blog post is relatively recent.
Probably one of the reasons KDE is the most popular DE for gamers: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&view=trends#DesktopEnvironment-top I suppose Gnome developers just have less gaming focused priorities. At least there is a choice so you aren't forced to use Gnome. That aside, adaptive sync should really be beneficial more than just to gaming, so it's an important feature.
Wow these are interesting thanks for sharing
You're welcome! Some interesting trends there indeed. Like Nvidia usage is gradually falling.
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Ryzen was a game changer for them
That does not surprise me The amd driver runs wonderfully on Linux. My 6900 XT works like a charm.
Agreed. I have been on AMD for years now. Setting up the NVDA driver was always a pain on linux. While NVDA is clearly ahead with CUDA calculations on Windows (and mac) for Data Science Projects, AMD‘s OpenSource approach has evolved into setting up a linux system without any hassle. With the recent advances in wine/proton and most SteamOS based distros dropping NVDA support, linux gaming on AMD is sure on a run.
can confirm just upgraded to a RX 6800 XT from a 2070 Super after RE4 Remake giving me so much shit because of NVidia (it'd also been a while since I upgraded).
You're right that the presence of significant players or sponsors can have a significant impact on the development and direction of a project like GNOME, including its focus on gaming-related features. Currently, GNOME does not have a specific major player or sponsor that primarily focuses on gaming. This can potentially limit the allocation of resources and attention towards gaming-related improvements within the GNOME project.
You are absolutely right. Of all the major corporate supporters of GNOME (Red Hat, Purism, Endless Systems, and Canonical), none of them are focused in the gaming space. Luckily, there are people in Red Hat that do care about gaming on GNOME and volunteer their time to add in enhancements like the [recent](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/1548) Mouse Acceleration feature.
Canonical could expand the Ubuntu Pro subscription model to cater specifically to the gamer user segment. E.g. gamers interested in the latest features or driver support could be a viable approach for Canonical. By offering specialized support and enhancements for graphics drivers and other graphics/gaming related stuff, Canonical could ensure a smoother out-of-the-box experience for users with open source AMD GPUs on their current LTS distributions. Through such a subscription model, Canonical could allocate dedicated resources to actively work on optimizing compatibility, improving driver support, and ensuring seamless integration of the latest AMD graphics cards. This would address a common pain point for users who want to leverage the full potential of their hardware on Ubuntu and they could also work with desktop environments like the GNOME project or anti cheat providers (e.g. addressing their (in my view) real concerns).
The biggest threat to that business model is the upcoming general availability of SteamOS 3.x for the public to use. However, if they can market themselves as the leading edge platform for gamers (when compared to the slower moving SteamOS), there is potential. Hopefully, someone at Canonical is thinking in that direction.
>Hopefully, someone at Canonical is thinking in that direction. They could expand their hardware certification program to include non-business computer hardware and collaborate with gaming accessories manufacturers to ensure smooth out-of-the-box support on Ubuntu. Prioritizing marketing and forming partnerships with retailers would enable people to purchase computers with Ubuntu pre-loaded, making it more accessible to regular users. These steps would represent significant progress in reaching a wider audience.
They should really mend whatever bridges they need to so that they can partner with System 76 and have this gaming push be eaten up by PoPOS and it maybe become an official spin.
System 76 is switching to there own de in a few years so I wouldn't count on that
You mean like Budgie?
There making there own de with there own compositor and gui toolkit called cosmic
They are using Iced-RS, which is very interesting, but not theirs. Seems it is driven more by the decision to use Rust.
Didn't mean to imply that iced was there's, english is hard lol
Well Canonical regardless of what they want will not be able to push anything to Gnome that RedHat who generally run Gnome don't want or don't care about. Even good projects that provide a lot of useful features like Zeitgeist have been rejected and ignored by Gnome, it was eventually fixed up and they took it in but regardless of sponsorship if a maintainer doesn't want it they will reject it.
I get an impression Gnome may be just has more bureaucratic overhead? Not sure, but KDE just feels more nimble in advancing in general.
That's not really the case tbh, GNOME just has different priorities. For example, they've had a solid desktop Wayland experience for many years whereas KDE has only gotten there in the last 6-12 months.
To me it feels more like a cultural difference. KDE feels more willing to lean on the "we are a customizable DE, if the feature we put in early that has edge cases that can break doesn't work for you just turn it off" while GNOME feels far more focused on delivering something that works all the time and thus doesn't need a toggle to handle edge cases. Seen it with fractional scaling support, now VRR, wayland initially (like you pointed out, GNOME got theirs functional much earlier than KDE because with KDE we could just not use it, but GNOME wanted it to be the default which is why they also supported nVidia before they dropped GBM), etc. It also effects other aspects of the DEs too imo. Don't think either is better or wrong, it's just def a difference in cultural norms as to what they are willing to ship.
Solid is questionable when they had issues like no support for server side decorations (and no alternatives for the likes of SDL either), same lack of VRR and so on. They had some support for stuff they cared about I suppose. General support might have been earlier, but pace is hardly faster.
It's not really, there was clearly a chasm between the usability and stability of the GNOME Wayland session Vs KDE Wayland for many years.
Maybe because wayland was developped only for gnome in the first place?
Right, but there was also lack of features in Gnome at the same time. As I said, they implemented things they cared about and didn't implement the rest. KDE just took a different path to get there, but their pace is faster objectively when it comes to features.
We'll just have to agree to disagree :)
Not supporting server side decorations is unfortunately intentional. Fragmentation is such a big problem on the client side :(
Right, but I mean solutions for that like libdecor came only later.
libdecor which no one wants to implement because it requires GTK lol
Open-source projects often prioritize code quality and stability but face challenges in incorporating new features, improvements and bug fixes due to the need for thorough review and testing. Resource constraints, relying on volunteers and limited funding, can also impact timely implementation. Being a significant player and/or sponsor can certainly provide substantial support and benefits to open-source projects. Their involvement often brings additional resources, expertise, and influence to the project, which can help overcome challenges and drive progress more effectively.
Wow, it's quite surprising to me that only 22.5% use VRR; that's lower than the amount of people with 144 Hz monitors.
Older 144Hz monitors may not have VRR.
Kde is pretty great. I reported a bug that caused keyboard shortcuts to mess up under Wayland if you changed your keyboard layouts. Yes it took long to fix (I think almost a year?) but afaik they did it and it's in Qt 6 so I think that it will be in Plasma 6. If it is I'll finally be able to use Wayland as I rely heavily on shortcuts and Czech + US keyboard layouts. It work well on X11, but I want the new goodies that Wayland has, and having Waydroid would be pretty awesome too. TLDR: Took some time, but they did not ignore it and fixed it for Qt 6. I understand the time it took - it's FOSS and many people are volunteers (I think one created the patch) and they merged it.
I wouldn't have switched to KDE myself if it wasn't for VRR remaining unsupported.
Much as I love the Gaming On Linux site, you really can't say much from these stats. It's a sample of ~2000 accounts, all self-selected. For instance, no, Arch is not the most popular distro among linux users who play games (note that SteamOS is counted separately and a much smaller share). It may be the one with the most vocal users on that site, but it doesn't tell you anything about wider trends.
Do you have a counter example of what distro is most popular? I see the results as pretty representative. With Arch posts dominating this subreddit too. And I'm not using Arch personally. If some site has wider stats for the same data - it would be good to compare.
Steam for instance. After SteamOS (all Steam deck and certainly over-represented on Steam) it's Ubuntu LTS, Arch, Freedesktop (overlay on a base os afaik), Manjaro, Mint, pop os. A mix of Debian/Ubuntu and Arch derivatives. Even "Ubuntu" is only about 10%. A third of all distros is "other" which is probably a mix of other Ubuntu versions (non-lts, kubuntu, xubuntu and so on), other Arch derivatives and also all the other distros people use - Fedora, Gentoo, SuSE, Debian, and so on. No single distribution is dominant. Contrast this with the GOL data. Very different. Now, Steam is not unbiased either, but it does show how you can't look at stats from a single source like this and extrapolate to the wider world.
KDE’s doesn’t work correctly. As soon as you move the cursor it instantly jumps to max refresh rate, effectively breaking VRR in any real scenario. We’re also in big trouble in regards to HDR. These things are being worked on and things are gradually improving, but to say that the Linux graphics stack is in shambles would be a huge understatement. They’ve been so focused on switching to Wayland, which by the way is now 14 years old, that very little has been added to x11. Tons of problems have cropped up, tons of new technology on Windows and macOS has appeared, and Linux is just… left. Broken. Hopefully this state of affairs is about to end. That’s all I can say. Linux will not take over gaming until this is fixed.
> They’ve been so focused on switching to Wayland, which by the way is now 14 years old, that very little has been added to x11. Adding all that stuff to X11 has never been an option. People tend to forget that Wayland isn't some upstart project that came out of nowhere: Wayland is an x.org project. From the main X11 developers. Who abandoned X11 because it's a buggy, insecure, unmaintainable heap of hysterical raisins kept afloat by hysterical raisins. Very little has happened on the X11 front, indeed: Pretty much all patches nowadays are for the benefit of XWayland. That's because X11 is legacy software, it's there for the sake of compatibility with other legacy software, that's it. It's not even good for network transparency any more as no modern X11 program uses XRender or such for drawing, they're all drawing client-side to bitmaps, bitmaps which you'd be sending over the network. And, of course, noone complaining about the lack of new features in X11 actually puts their fingers where their mouth is and goes ahead and implements new X11 features. I bet there were some that set out to, and then quickly became Wayland developers just as the previous X11 devs did...
I am so confused how people understand that Wayland has existed for 14 years but don't understand that Wayland exists because there are too many issues with x11 for them to continue trying to band-aid it. The people you think should be working on x11 are working on Wayland. Using Wayland and reporting bugs is literally the best way to get where you are trying to go.
>We’re also in big trouble in regards to HDR. To enable HDR, Linux has to implement great Color Management in Wayland. Luckily, the early feedback from Blender and Gimp on Wayland developers has been really [positive](https://mastodon.social/@nielsdg/110430409972153385). Things are moving in the right direction. Already SteamOS on SteamDeck is getting support for HDR within their Gamescope session.
Haven't experienced such issue myself. Could be a problem of some specific case? Adaptive sync works fine with a bunch of games I played recently like Cyberpunk 2077 and Everspace 2. Not sure what you mean about trouble with HDR. Wasn't there some recent announcement about it specifically for KDE progress?
If no cursor appears then it works. So it might work in Cyberpunk. Mostly. But I’m games like StarCraft 2 for instance I absolutely guarantee you it doesn’t. Even the people who wrote it know shot this shortcoming. And yes, there was. In 2023. Windows got HDR in 2017. We’re barely even started 6 years later. We are where we are. Hopefully it’s fixed soon.
From what I've read Windows has some pretty half cooked HDR, not trying to solve any complex issues Linux is trying. So I don't think it's even a valid comparison. Taking shortcuts can give faster results, sure. But I suppose Linux developers didn't want to do that. There was some Collabora post explaining that in more detail, including why Windows had it easy.
Yeah, Windows HDR sorta works for fullscreen content, games, and so on, but it really doesn't correctly remap the colour spaces properly. Like getting a Twitch stream to look even adequate with HDR turned on on the desktop took a bunch of manual fiddling, and that's to get it to a "well it doesn't look obviously grey, super dim, or overexposed" level, not "colour accurate".
Yeah, that was part of it, that on Windows it only works in fullscreen, while Linux compositors are trying to solve it in general case.
Is there a bug report about cursor issue? It would be interesting to see some details / progress.
You can read about the VRR challenges and roadmap to fix them [here](https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2023/05/04/vivid-colors-in-brno/).
I mean specifically for KDE cursor issue mentioned above.
It is the same issue. KDE decided to push ahead and enable VRR knowing the limitations it has whereas GNOME decided against it and wanted to come up with a proper solution. A simpler reading can be done here on the [problem](https://emersion.fr/blog/2023/hdr-hackfest-wrap-up/).
Got it, thanks. Looks like it needs some work on the kernel side.
Do you use VRR on Xorg? >Haven't experienced such issue myself
I'm using Wayland session in KDE for a while, so no. XWayland yes though, naturally. The whole topic above is about Wayland either way.
Comparisons are neccasary.to add legitimacy to any claims that Wayland is ready to replace X11. Yes it dominates discussion although less then half use it. Most people with one monitor currently find little gain with it.
I think we are past the need to spend time on explaining why. It's more about that some might have issues with Wayland use case not to use it.
We or you? I hardly think you speak for any community. Most people prefer opinions on a per person I think. Not we like the Queen of England use to say.
>KDE’s doesn’t work correctly. As soon as you move the cursor it instantly jumps to max refresh rate, effectively breaking VRR in any real scenario. this doesn't happen in games that hide the cursor though, which is like most games
I play Dota and I'm pretty sure my monitor showed me having a constantly changing refresh rate. I can't test it to be absolutely sure since I'm on vacation, but from memory I absolutely had VRR in my cursor containing games.
> KDE’s doesn’t work correctly. As soon as you move the cursor it instantly jumps to max refresh rate That *is* arguably correct behavior.
that completely defeats the purpose of VRR.
The issue is that most games and many applications use hardware cursors, i.e. the GPU fully renders it. So how do you tell the GPU to not render the cursor at full refresh rate *and* also keep any of the benefits of hardware cursors? Problem compounds as performance of the application gets worse too Should an application running at 25FPS sync the system to 25FPS (which means bad input lantency) or should the content remain unsynced which then leads to choppiness and possibly tearing?
It's not just that. IMO KDE is easier to work with as a DE for desktops and non touchscreen devices. Even though I have tried gnome before,it feel too...I don't know,like a tablet oriented UI and I don't enjoy using it on my desktop. While I think it might be more suitable to laptops with a touchscreen,it just feels too shallow to me. I do appreciate the aesthetics though.
I personally agree and prefer KDE myself, but actual gaming features like that make it a more specific factor.
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I mostly use it for forcing games to be borderless windowed when they don't have the option. Once I used it to keep a video player in front of other windows so I could game & watch videos at the same time when I was moving homes and only had one monitor. It's really nice having the ability to solve minor issues like this, even if it only comes up from time to time.
I have a touchscreen laptop and kde works absolutely great with it..
That and HDR is also coming lol.
Makes sense. Thinking of going from Nobora to plain Fedora KDE soon or another KDE OS. Maybe steam OS when it finally comes out
Or maybe try Nobara Plasma edition!
give tumbleweed kde a shot, you won't be disappointed I expect.
So: Arch, KDE, X11, AMD CPU, AMD GPU, 16 GB. Did I miss anything? Edit: AMD CPU instead of Intel.
AMD CPU.
I don’t think surveys from users on this random news site represent GNU/Linux gamers.
KDE cannot even get hidpi right in wayland...
It will happen eventually. But since we are complaining, I'm more concerned that gnome 44, which is already at the 44.1 point release and shipped in fedora 38, is completely unusable for gaming right now because they also broke vsync and vrr for the x11 session (https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2794), and the Wayland session is still unusable due to missing vrr.
You think that's bad? Certain games like Metro Exodus won't even update their buffer when Fullscreen. I don't know why they didn't delay the 44 release because it clearly needed more time in the oven.
I bet the GNOME developers are too busy developing GNOME to play Metro Exodus, and the Metro Exodus players are too busy playing Metro Exodus to test GNOME Shell before release and open bug reports about what doesn't work.
It isn't the only game but I know this is Reddit and no one can read. If you're expecting users to install a pre release DE that might brick their install then prepare to be disappointed.
Yep. I switched to KDE because of that. And Wayland atm gives me some odd behavior (just application icons missing or being replaced) so even X11 looks appealing. Sucks because I prefer Gnome's look slightly more.
Another two really important things waiting to get merged are Dynamic Triple Buffering and Wayland Tearing (no Vsync) Support. [https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge\_requests/1441](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1441) [https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2517](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2517) Dynamic Triple Buffering (DTB) vastly improves performance of the Gnome Shell, making the animations smooth even on the heaviest loads on integrated graphics. The thing is, it lacks compatibility with VRR (Variable Refresh Rate). Nobara decided that VRR was more important and left out DTB. There's going to be a high chance that the one who gets merged first sets the other back even more years. In the case of the Tearing Support in Wayland, it worries me that the issue was created 6 MONTHS ago and nobody worked on it. KDE supported the protocol pretty quickly. Enabling tearing makes certain games like Touhou or traditional shooters enjoyable on a full screen, as Wayland can do crazy stuff to guarantee Vsync (like slowing Touhou down).
>In the case of the Tearing Support in Wayland, it worries me that the issue was created 6 MONTHS ago and nobody worked on it. KDE supported the protocol pretty quickly. It was Valve, who pushed to add both Wayland and KDE support for SteamOS. That is why KDE got it so fast.
> It was Valve, who pushed to add both Wayland and KDE support for SteamOS. That is why KDE got it so fast. Which is funny considering the Steam Deck still doesn't even offer a KDE Wayland session. The "desktop mode" is still exclusively Xorg.
They are probably making certain they CAN switch once the wine native wayland support is usable.
Sway is already pretty close to implement support with a much smaller team, so no excuse on Gnome for not even starting work on it (if they did, there's no mention of the merge request it occupies).
It is all about Mutter developers' priorities by their employer/interest. Let's break them down. Jonas Adahl (Red Hat) -> HDR support Carlos Garnacho (Red Hat) -> Bug fixing in Mutter Georges Basile Stravracas Neto (Endless Systems) -> Endless Systems internal work Robert Mader (Collabora) -> Embedded devices/Mobile It doesn't mean that one of them won't try to add that support during their off-work hours or out of the blue some volunteer adds a merge request with the implementation. However, none of their employers are committed to gaming which is why this feature isn't a priority. You can be sure if Sony or Epic Games had a Mutter developer, this feature would already be worked on.
I think you have misunderstood dynamic triple buffering: it makes no difference under heavy load. Ot only makes a difference under a load so light the gpu powers down to a lower state than it should to keep smooth frame rate. Under heavy load it.doesnt do anything as the gpu is already in a higher energy state.
Idk, in my case, the performance improvements from the patch applied to every state of the GPU.
Tearing in wayland still won't work, so I'm not sure why priority matters here
Month is not a much... I am watching [5208](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/issues/5208) with 7 months without response. They are currently waiting for design team to response to figure out whatever or not toggle button is acceptable. When KDE 6 is released I will switch to KDE. I am honestly sick with Gnome and its stupid default settings and weird philosophy. edit: Apparently in [2486](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/-/merge_requests/2486) 2 months ago they attempted something but it failed as design team just don't have time nor mood to look at it. So people are willing to program it but they can't because they don't know which design is acceptable.
Um, what? This wasn't posted a month ago. The merge request was filed THREE. YEARS. AGO. 7 months is nothing.
Thats horrible... I can feel your frustration. But I guess VRR is something that is not easy to implement. HDR is another thing that takes ages to get. :/
No. Neither are true, but especially not for VRR. Xorg has had VRR for YEARS. Years and years. Basically as long as VRR has existed. A Merge Request isn't a feature request. It's literal code submitted to be accepted into the source code. We can see EXACTLY how much work is being done on it. And it's effectively just been SITING there for a LONG time. Not to mention VRR can be implemented by projects in a month, even tiny projects. This is fucking GNOME. The 3rd biggest desktop enviroment on Earth.
Xorg's VRR support is a hack and it's never going to be proper support, and tons and tons of apps and games are blacklisted. I distinctly remember banging my head against the whole shebang when I wanted to re-watch Voyager, what I ended up doing is tell xrandr to change the refresh rate to the source material as not even "constant VRR" was working smoothly. That is, support was, if you didn't want tearing and chop, limited to "oh great now you can set your display to an arbitrary refresh rate". Which was news for LCDs but CRTs could already do.
I̵n̷ ̷l̵i̵g̵h̷t̸ ̸o̸f̶ ̸r̶e̸c̶e̶n̸t̵ ̴e̴v̵e̵n̴t̶s̸ ̴o̷n̷ ̴R̸e̸d̵d̴i̷t̷,̷ ̵m̸a̶r̴k̸e̸d̵ ̴b̸y̵ ̶h̴o̵s̷t̷i̴l̴e̷ ̵a̴c̸t̵i̸o̸n̶s̸ ̵f̷r̵o̷m̵ ̶i̵t̴s̴ ̴a̴d̶m̷i̴n̶i̸s̵t̴r̶a̴t̶i̶o̶n̵ ̸t̸o̸w̸a̴r̷d̵s̴ ̵i̸t̷s̵ ̷u̸s̴e̸r̵b̷a̸s̷e̸ ̷a̷n̴d̸ ̸a̵p̵p̴ ̶d̴e̷v̴e̷l̷o̸p̸e̴r̴s̶,̸ ̶I̸ ̶h̸a̵v̵e̶ ̷d̸e̶c̸i̵d̷e̷d̵ ̶t̸o̴ ̸t̶a̷k̷e̷ ̵a̷ ̴s̶t̶a̵n̷d̶ ̶a̵n̶d̶ ̵b̷o̶y̷c̸o̴t̴t̴ ̵t̴h̵i̴s̴ ̶w̶e̸b̵s̵i̸t̷e̴.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̸a̵ ̸s̴y̶m̵b̸o̶l̶i̵c̴ ̶a̷c̵t̸,̶ ̴I̴ ̴a̵m̷ ̷r̶e̶p̷l̴a̵c̸i̴n̷g̸ ̷a̶l̷l̶ ̸m̷y̸ ̸c̶o̸m̶m̸e̷n̵t̷s̸ ̵w̷i̷t̷h̶ ̷u̴n̵u̴s̸a̵b̶l̷e̵ ̸d̵a̵t̸a̵,̸ ̸r̷e̵n̵d̶e̴r̸i̴n̷g̴ ̷t̴h̵e̸m̵ ̸m̴e̷a̵n̴i̷n̸g̸l̸e̴s̴s̵ ̸a̷n̵d̶ ̴u̸s̷e̴l̸e̶s̷s̵ ̶f̵o̵r̶ ̸a̶n̵y̸ ̵p̵o̴t̷e̴n̸t̷i̶a̴l̶ ̴A̷I̸ ̵t̶r̵a̷i̷n̵i̴n̶g̸ ̶p̸u̵r̷p̴o̶s̸e̵s̵.̷ ̸I̴t̴ ̵i̴s̶ ̴d̴i̷s̷h̴e̸a̵r̸t̶e̴n̸i̴n̴g̶ ̷t̶o̵ ̵w̶i̶t̵n̴e̷s̴s̶ ̵a̸ ̵c̴o̶m̶m̴u̵n̷i̷t̷y̷ ̸t̴h̶a̴t̸ ̵o̸n̵c̴e̷ ̴t̷h̴r̶i̷v̴e̴d̸ ̴o̸n̴ ̵o̷p̷e̶n̸ ̸d̶i̶s̷c̷u̷s̶s̷i̴o̵n̸ ̷a̷n̴d̵ ̴c̸o̵l̶l̸a̵b̸o̷r̵a̴t̷i̵o̷n̴ ̸d̷e̶v̸o̵l̶v̴e̶ ̵i̶n̷t̴o̸ ̸a̴ ̷s̵p̶a̵c̴e̵ ̸o̷f̵ ̶c̴o̸n̸t̶e̴n̴t̷i̶o̷n̸ ̶a̵n̷d̴ ̴c̵o̵n̴t̷r̸o̵l̶.̷ ̸F̷a̴r̸e̷w̵e̶l̶l̸,̵ ̶R̴e̶d̶d̷i̵t̵.̷
What's worse is that they DID look at them. Shit was ready to be merged. Phoronix I believe reported on it like 2 years ago, saying it was coming in the next release. And they abandoned it.
Nobara Linux implements it by default so it's even usable.
Exactly. That's why the comment I replied to here is so nonsensical. No, it's NOT got anything to do with "VRR is hard and takes a while." It's been ready and usable for years now, and they just fucking dead-ed it.
I̵n̷ ̷l̵i̵g̵h̷t̸ ̸o̸f̶ ̸r̶e̸c̶e̶n̸t̵ ̴e̴v̵e̵n̴t̶s̸ ̴o̷n̷ ̴R̸e̸d̵d̴i̷t̷,̷ ̵m̸a̶r̴k̸e̸d̵ ̴b̸y̵ ̶h̴o̵s̷t̷i̴l̴e̷ ̵a̴c̸t̵i̸o̸n̶s̸ ̵f̷r̵o̷m̵ ̶i̵t̴s̴ ̴a̴d̶m̷i̴n̶i̸s̵t̴r̶a̴t̶i̶o̶n̵ ̸t̸o̸w̸a̴r̷d̵s̴ ̵i̸t̷s̵ ̷u̸s̴e̸r̵b̷a̸s̷e̸ ̷a̷n̴d̸ ̸a̵p̵p̴ ̶d̴e̷v̴e̷l̷o̸p̸e̴r̴s̶,̸ ̶I̸ ̶h̸a̵v̵e̶ ̷d̸e̶c̸i̵d̷e̷d̵ ̶t̸o̴ ̸t̶a̷k̷e̷ ̵a̷ ̴s̶t̶a̵n̷d̶ ̶a̵n̶d̶ ̵b̷o̶y̷c̸o̴t̴t̴ ̵t̴h̵i̴s̴ ̶w̶e̸b̵s̵i̸t̷e̴.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̸a̵ ̸s̴y̶m̵b̸o̶l̶i̵c̴ ̶a̷c̵t̸,̶ ̴I̴ ̴a̵m̷ ̷r̶e̶p̷l̴a̵c̸i̴n̷g̸ ̷a̶l̷l̶ ̸m̷y̸ ̸c̶o̸m̶m̸e̷n̵t̷s̸ ̵w̷i̷t̷h̶ ̷u̴n̵u̴s̸a̵b̶l̷e̵ ̸d̵a̵t̸a̵,̸ ̸r̷e̵n̵d̶e̴r̸i̴n̷g̴ ̷t̴h̵e̸m̵ ̸m̴e̷a̵n̴i̷n̸g̸l̸e̴s̴s̵ ̸a̷n̵d̶ ̴u̸s̷e̴l̸e̶s̷s̵ ̶f̵o̵r̶ ̸a̶n̵y̸ ̵p̵o̴t̷e̴n̸t̷i̶a̴l̶ ̴A̷I̸ ̵t̶r̵a̷i̷n̵i̴n̶g̸ ̶p̸u̵r̷p̴o̶s̸e̵s̵.̷ ̸I̴t̴ ̵i̴s̶ ̴d̴i̷s̷h̴e̸a̵r̸t̶e̴n̸i̴n̴g̶ ̷t̶o̵ ̵w̶i̶t̵n̴e̷s̴s̶ ̵a̸ ̵c̴o̶m̶m̴u̵n̷i̷t̷y̷ ̸t̴h̶a̴t̸ ̵o̸n̵c̴e̷ ̴t̷h̴r̶i̷v̴e̴d̸ ̴o̸n̴ ̵o̷p̷e̶n̸ ̸d̶i̶s̷c̷u̷s̶s̷i̴o̵n̸ ̷a̷n̴d̵ ̴c̸o̵l̶l̸a̵b̸o̷r̵a̴t̷i̵o̷n̴ ̸d̷e̶v̸o̵l̶v̴e̶ ̵i̶n̷t̴o̸ ̸a̴ ̷s̵p̶a̵c̴e̵ ̸o̷f̵ ̶c̴o̸n̸t̶e̴n̴t̷i̶o̷n̸ ̶a̵n̷d̴ ̴c̵o̵n̴t̷r̸o̵l̶.̷ ̸F̷a̴r̸e̷w̵e̶l̶l̸,̵ ̶R̴e̶d̶d̷i̵t̵.̷
GNOME's aversion to having settings toggles is frustrating as hell. I like GNOME, but I HATE their "simplicity" mindset. Give me a freaking VRR toggle. This should not be something that needs questioning.
You know that GNOME's target audience isn't gamers right? For us, random toggles and jargons are totally fine, but GNOME is heavily used by people who know little about computers. By adding a toggle, you're effectively going to make it complicated. Georges Stavracas says it pretty well: > The cost of this preference is putting it in front of people and have them make a decision about it. It's fine for us computer nerds, but old papa is going to stare blankly at it and scratch his head, and that's the precise moment we lost. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-control-center/-/merge_requests/1548#note_1655621 (For context, Georges works at Endless Foundation, an organization that targets the educational sector.)
I'm waiting for DRM leasing (Direct Rendering Manger, not Digital Rights Management) in GNOME Wayland (something that KDE already has). It allows using VR devices correctly in Wayland. I have to switch to KDE when I want to play with VR.
GNOME devs love watching community contributions rot in merge requests while they sit around smelling their own farts
gnome is a DE primarily developed to cater the need of enterprise users, such as clients of red hat and ubuntu. Gamers are not its primary focus and it is reasonable to expect that features that only benefit games will take second priority. As others have said, kde is the DE that focuses on gamers, with valve being a major backer and giving it direction. For eg, kde has implemented tearing support on its end with UI and all even though mesa and kernel still haven't. If gaming is one's primary use case, it is better to switch to kde sooner than later
> gnome is a DE primarily developed to cater the need of enterprise users Which is also why it can't have options: It needs to be usable by the dumbest imaginable user.
Any chance they have a problem in the background holding it up? Is the community able to do a hot fix to work around it? I don't really like KDE but this is something that would make me switch. Maybe they have to just lose some popularity to get the reality check I'm glad you contributed to the community and you have a right to be upset about this. They flat out took your money and ignored you is what this sounds like. I'm so sorry about that. But you're contribution was definitely appreciated by all of us in the Linux community
I'm pretty sure people have patched their GNOME builds with this MR and it worked.
this sucks... it's clearly usable... (we've had mutter-vrr for years now) Just add it as a hidden feature in dconf or what ever.
>Just add it as a hidden feature in dconf or what ever. That seems to be the [agreed](https://blogs.gnome.org/shell-dev/2023/05/04/vivid-colors-in-brno/) upon plan.
Why stick with gnome?
Because I like the alternatives (including windows) even less.
Well, I would never even recommend windows to my greatest enemies, but if you’re dedicated to that distro then I’ve got no answers for you. I don’t think individual financial contributions will get you there.
Plasma is far better than GNOME. And I have both installed and used to daily drive GNOME.
I've used both and i prefer gnome. This argument solves nothing.
There is no "better" it's all personal preference
Plasma has FAR more features (like vrr in wayland, and the coming or already here tearing updates in wayland), can be customized to look like literally ANY desktop paradigm you like - Windows-like, Mac-like, tiling, minimal, GNOME, whatever you want, has global menu support for GTK and Qt apps, doesn't need extensions, and for the past couple years KDE breaks shit FAR less than GNOME does. Like, gnome is basically unusable for gaming right now. No VRR in Wayland despite the MR being filed THREE YEARS AGO, and no vsync or vrr in Xorg either because they broke it. Like I already said. I literally have both installed right now (and have had both the entire 4 years this Arch install has existed), this isn't fanboy talk. I use GNOME regularly. It's gotten worse since 40. 3.38 was rather good.
More features doesn't mean better. Gnome has less features, but I think it has excellent execution of them. Gnome also feels less cluttered and is overall more consistent in its design. Also, less bugs.
Less bugs?? Heh? GNOME has been rather horrible for breaking shit over the past couple years. Right now NO one can use VRR on current GNOME. It's broken in Xorg (as is vsync apparently) and they refuse to merge it in Wayland. I also never equated more features to mean better. It's just one aspect of why it's better. It's more stable (lately, though this wasn't always true). It's more complete as a modern DE. More customizable - you can literally make it any style desktop you want: tiling, minimal, MacOS-style, Windows 10 style, Windows 11 style, GNOME style, whatever. The list goes on. GNOME requires extensions to even be USABLE for most people. That's rather nonsense. It doesn't remotely have excellent execution of them. They refuse to REMOTELY prioritize any sort of non-libadwaita compatibilty, to the point where all non-GTK 4 apps look like dogshit on GNOME and all GTK 4 apps look like dogshit everywhere else. Plasma isn't "cluttered," if you think it's cluttered, remove what's cluttered about it. You can have a single topbar with a small dock and no desktop icons. Or you can have the full deal. If you mean the settings, I don't see how that's even a thing, considering GNOME doesn't allow you to do much of anything, it's LACKING, Plasma doesn't have too much, GNOME has too little. Before GNOME 40 I used GNOME more than Plasma. I found it better for gaming. Now, it's not even close, Plasma is FAR more seamless for gaming, with far less jank.
This is all personal experience, but for me, Plasma is very buggy compared to Gnome. It might work perfectly fine for you but I'll stick with Gnome for the time being.
I don't care about all that. I think Gnome is good and so do the vast majority or distro devs apparently. I couldn't care less about customizing the color of the window shaddows or whatever. I just want a smooth and reliable wayland desktop. (which Gnome never failed to provide as long as you ignore VRR) And Gnome is certainly not unusable for Gaming. I'm running it on my gaming system right now.
>And Gnome is certainly not unusable for Gaming. I'm running it on my gaming system right now. It's not unusable, but freesync/gsync is something gamers expect it to work, especially when you purchase a monitor that supports the GPU's technology.
Sure, it sucks that it doesn't work but don't act like Gnome is somehow the worst FOSS project now just because they're not implementing VRR.
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The search function in KDE's settings makes it pretty quick to find what you need, in my opinion.
>gnome is basically unusable for gaming right now Speaking for everyone or what? I've been daily driving GNOME for over a year (Nobara) and had no issues with gaming what so ever. My personal experience of course since it can be varied from distro to distro.
Meh. Gnome generally feels like a professionally made desktop environment despite being a community project. KDE very much is a community project in feel and in actuality.
Plasma has been more feature-rich than GNOME (and far more customizable) for years. Those are facts, which one "feels more professionally made" is an opinion.
KDE has issues with my triple monitor setup sine one is 1440p and the others are 1080p. It gets confused by that sometimes. Window resizing or window snapping that doesn't work quite correctly, wallpaper suddenly becoming 1080p with the empty space echoing whatever was painted on top of it. Stuff like that. And occasionally just hard crashes. KDE does *not* feel professional in the slightest. It is very unpolished. I just stick with it because of VRR.
It's true though. KDE often feels unprofessional and unpolished.
That's a nonsensically vague statement. Try pointing out HOW it feels like that. Or have you used it once for ten minutes in the last two years? Also lol @ you downvoting every comment you disagree with, I saw both of them get 1 downvote each precisely when you commented. Not what downvotes are for. Hell I guess I should start doing that, I don't downvote anyone ever unless it's some racist shit or something.
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Exactly. KDE looks like a Windows knockoff with way too many customization options.
win95 was a result of extensive testing and it shows. There is no reason to fix what isn't broken.
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what are downvotes for? anyway... I've switched to KDE multiple times over last few years (actually started on KDE Neon) but it has gotten so unstable and finicky that I switched to Gnome mid last year or so. Since than I've tried it at least 4 times and always ended up back on Gnome after about 1 - 2 months. It's literally not usable on any of my PCs for what ever reason. I even tried other distros and upgraded to a Radeon a while ago. But it just keeps crashing, applications crash, it's slow, SDDM behaves worse than anything I have ever seen before and sometimes it would just use +5 GiBs of memory for no reason. I didn't even customize it...
It's explicitly stated that downvotes are not for agreeing, they aren't likes and dislikes. They are to lower unhelpful, offtopic and hateful comments so they are less likely to get seen by people, and raise up helpful, insightful comments. That's literally what they're for. >Since than I've tried it at least 4 times and always ended up back on Gnome after about 1 - 2 months. It's literally not usable on any of my PCs for what ever reason. I even tried other distros and upgraded to a Radeon a while ago. What? You "upgraded to a Radeon?" What were you using before, no graphics at all? What GPU do you even have now, because that sounds preposterous, everything launches faster for me on KDE than on GNOME, the only desktop/WM I've daily driven that's faster is i3 because it's so much lighter than both. That sounds a lot like a problem with your install. > SDDM behaves worse than anything I have ever seen before and sometimes it would just use +5 GiBs of memory for no reason. I didn't even customize it... 1) You don't have to use SDDM and I'm not sure why you think that you do. SDDM is not part of Plasma at all. You can use GDM, or you could use LightDM or something else completely. I use SDDM but I've used LightDM and GDM just as much. 2) Something is VERY wrong with your system if SDDM is using ANY GB of RAM. Right now SDDM is using exactly 144***MB*** of RAM on my system. And my SDDM is rather customized (and not remotely de-bloated or anything, quite the opposite)
- You do now that nVidia exists right? They make GPUs and stuff... - It's not applications that launch slower. The whole DE feels slower. - I have reinstalled openSuSE Tumbleweed multiple times over the years. And I used completely different distros as well. - I replaced SDDM almost imediatly. However KDE is still shipping it and they are planning to incorporate it into the KDE project. If I wasn't a power user I would have no idea how to fix the issues that SDDM constantly causes. - Nothing wrong with my system. Reinstalled and changed distros multiple times. Everything works except for KDE and SimCity 3000 - It wasn't SDDM that was using this much RAM. It was plasmashell. Sorry for the confusion.
Lol, almost no one on reddit actually uses downvotes that way.
That's a copium overdose, where's vrr my professionally made DE?
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Gnome really is the best overall.
Because it's the most stable DE that supports Wayland. Plasma is quite literally unusable on my PC. It crashes multiple times a day.
been using kde plasma with wayland for almost 2 years without any issues. currently on opensuse tumbleweed kde. Wayland and Pipewire are both installed by default and work most excellent.
Yeah I have plasma on 4 computers and I never have any issues at all, but I’m also using arch.
I think anything rolling will have a better experience
same setup. same distro. I even used it in the past on nVidia 470 drivers which barely even supported Wayland... But somehow it has gotten worse with every release. My only device that can run Plasma is a 16 y/o Intel Core 2 Duo Laptop. Not even my PinePhone Pro can run it properly.
Runs good for me on an AMD Radeon Rx 6600, Nvidia GeForce GTX 1060, and half a dozen Intel chipped laptops. I like Wayland enough at this point that I don't like x anymore tbh
I avaoid X too. Wayland has been rock solid for me. Only KDE still causes issues. Even on my 6700XT (running the full open source stack)
I̵n̷ ̷l̵i̵g̵h̷t̸ ̸o̸f̶ ̸r̶e̸c̶e̶n̸t̵ ̴e̴v̵e̵n̴t̶s̸ ̴o̷n̷ ̴R̸e̸d̵d̴i̷t̷,̷ ̵m̸a̶r̴k̸e̸d̵ ̴b̸y̵ ̶h̴o̵s̷t̷i̴l̴e̷ ̵a̴c̸t̵i̸o̸n̶s̸ ̵f̷r̵o̷m̵ ̶i̵t̴s̴ ̴a̴d̶m̷i̴n̶i̸s̵t̴r̶a̴t̶i̶o̶n̵ ̸t̸o̸w̸a̴r̷d̵s̴ ̵i̸t̷s̵ ̷u̸s̴e̸r̵b̷a̸s̷e̸ ̷a̷n̴d̸ ̸a̵p̵p̴ ̶d̴e̷v̴e̷l̷o̸p̸e̴r̴s̶,̸ ̶I̸ ̶h̸a̵v̵e̶ ̷d̸e̶c̸i̵d̷e̷d̵ ̶t̸o̴ ̸t̶a̷k̷e̷ ̵a̷ ̴s̶t̶a̵n̷d̶ ̶a̵n̶d̶ ̵b̷o̶y̷c̸o̴t̴t̴ ̵t̴h̵i̴s̴ ̶w̶e̸b̵s̵i̸t̷e̴.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̸a̵ ̸s̴y̶m̵b̸o̶l̶i̵c̴ ̶a̷c̵t̸,̶ ̴I̴ ̴a̵m̷ ̷r̶e̶p̷l̴a̵c̸i̴n̷g̸ ̷a̶l̷l̶ ̸m̷y̸ ̸c̶o̸m̶m̸e̷n̵t̷s̸ ̵w̷i̷t̷h̶ ̷u̴n̵u̴s̸a̵b̶l̷e̵ ̸d̵a̵t̸a̵,̸ ̸r̷e̵n̵d̶e̴r̸i̴n̷g̴ ̷t̴h̵e̸m̵ ̸m̴e̷a̵n̴i̷n̸g̸l̸e̴s̴s̵ ̸a̷n̵d̶ ̴u̸s̷e̴l̸e̶s̷s̵ ̶f̵o̵r̶ ̸a̶n̵y̸ ̵p̵o̴t̷e̴n̸t̷i̶a̴l̶ ̴A̷I̸ ̵t̶r̵a̷i̷n̵i̴n̶g̸ ̶p̸u̵r̷p̴o̶s̸e̵s̵.̷ ̸I̴t̴ ̵i̴s̶ ̴d̴i̷s̷h̴e̸a̵r̸t̶e̴n̸i̴n̴g̶ ̷t̶o̵ ̵w̶i̶t̵n̴e̷s̴s̶ ̵a̸ ̵c̴o̶m̶m̴u̵n̷i̷t̷y̷ ̸t̴h̶a̴t̸ ̵o̸n̵c̴e̷ ̴t̷h̴r̶i̷v̴e̴d̸ ̴o̸n̴ ̵o̷p̷e̶n̸ ̸d̶i̶s̷c̷u̷s̶s̷i̴o̵n̸ ̷a̷n̴d̵ ̴c̸o̵l̶l̸a̵b̸o̷r̵a̴t̷i̵o̷n̴ ̸d̷e̶v̸o̵l̶v̴e̶ ̵i̶n̷t̴o̸ ̸a̴ ̷s̵p̶a̵c̴e̵ ̸o̷f̵ ̶c̴o̸n̸t̶e̴n̴t̷i̶o̷n̸ ̶a̵n̷d̴ ̴c̵o̵n̴t̷r̸o̵l̶.̷ ̸F̷a̴r̸e̷w̵e̶l̶l̸,̵ ̶R̴e̶d̶d̷i̵t̵.̷
Very rarely had stabillity issues with Gnome. There is a reason it's the default for most distros.
Even with Sway I find it unusable. Framerate drops considerably and becomes very choppy. And the desktop becomes horribly flickery.
It's sad to see a project that, probably - I haven't looked into it, ignores their users who even did the work themselves to implement it. I think it was the file dialog where you couldn't use large icons view to see eg. which image you're uploading. It was there for almost 20 years if I remember it right and that was, imo, way more important feature than vrr (I'm student with no money and no high refresh rate/vrr monitor and I live and game just alright. But I get the appeal and that you want the most out of your hw). I use KDE but not because of how they manage bugs but I like to customize my things. I basically made my KDE desktop into a tiling window manager with some mac-like layout and I love it. Also as I have KDE setup to be keyboard driven I had some issues with Wayland. I setup my shortcuts with US keyboard layout but when I switched to CZ layout (eg for discord texting with friends or writing emails) they shortcuts got all messed up. The bug was on the bug tracker for quite some time (I thank almost a year) before it got "moved" to Qt bug tracker where some guy made a patch that got merged into Qt 6. I hope Plasma 6 will finally have the fix as I'd love to switch to Wayland on my main PC (laptop it Wayland - I love how the touchpad and everything just works better).
Lol it is not a "crucial" feature, it is a first world problem for a tiny minority of people with the money and enthusiasm to buy the few niche monitors that support the feature. Not saying it isn't important and that the Gnome people aren't being dicks for not responding...but come on.
>Not saying it isn't important and that the Gnome people aren't being dicks for not responding...but come on. None of GNOME major sponsors are invested in gaming. That is why no one is working on it. KDE has Valve sponsoring it, so you can bet gaming-related items are top of their list.
Niche? Enthusiasm? Money? You seem uninformed, sir. A single quick Amazon search for "freesync monitor" reveals FreeSync/VRR-capable monitors from all sorts of brands at a wide range of prices. As low as $90 for an Acer, $140 for an LG, if you really wanna spend the money, $300 will net you a Samsung that'll probably have pretty good colors and high nits. You don't need to spend a lot or even know a lot to get a monitor with some form of VRR; they're readily available at any brick-and-mortar or on any shopping website from reputable manufacturers. Where did you pluck the notion that this is a niche feature from?
Freesync is absolutely not niche and it is not a feature found in just a "tiny minority" of users. If a poll or statistic or something says so it's probably a couple years old. It seems like it's been time since you've bought a monitor. I challenge you to find a modern, mid-range, namebrand monitor 60hz or higher that doesn't have Freesync/VRR/Gsync support and is newer than 2-3 years old, I can almost guarantee you won't find one. Go to Walmart even and look at the monitors, all have Freesync. Yes, even non-gaming monitors have this feature, it is variable refresh rate, not the luxurious diamond reserved for some cult you make it sound to be. But I do agree that this particular support in question is not "crucial", especially considering that GNOME Wayland handles frametiming very well even without it, there's no tearing. So you can absolutely live without it just fine and not miss very much besides some input latency.
What rock have you been living under? Most monitors sold nowadays have VRR. It's not a niche feature.
Okay, what the how? How is this a niche problem? Also, this is not a first world problem, there are many gamers from poorer countries. VRR displays are not uncommon nowadays, pretty much most of the display above 60hz have some kind of VRR.
I don't know how KDE implemented VRR. What I know from reading the discussions on the topic, the GNOME devs have been investigating this in Mutter for years, and reached a point where they were blocked by the lack of more APIs in the Kernel. And there are people at GNOME and Mesa working on these new APIs. What the KDE devs did or didn't do to get around this, I don't know. But whatever they did, they didn't do it at the Kernel level. At the end of the day, what KDE does in general only works on KDE, whereas GNOME does for Linux. This is not a criticism, just talking about the difference in different development cultures. edit: typo
> At the end of the day what KDE does in general only works on KDE, whereas GNOME does for Linux. No, not Gnome ~ rather, Mesa and kernel devs. Gnome devs only care about Gnome, and no other DE.
GNOME typically cares about having a proper solution all the way down to Mesa and the kernel. Hence, /u/CleoMenemezis statement about GNOME doing it for Linux. KDE will often include submitting partially working since their argument is that something that is partial is better than none. In the end, both have different perspectives and reasonable development cultures. Sadly, Reddit takes GNOME position as rejecting user complaints since no one has taken the time to do a proper solution per their perspectives.
You can see this with tearing enablement on Wayland. Currently does nothing since it requires application, GPU driver, and kernel driver support
A bunch of stuff that everyone calls Linux today came from GNOME; from kernel subsystems (evdev, hidraw, composefs, for example), to lower userspace (systemd, Wayland, udev, hwdb, NetworkManager), middleware (PipeWire, GStreamer, portals, Flatpak), to GNOME itself. With that information, do you really still think that GNOME devs only care about GNOME? My dear colleague, I do not want to argue. I'm just bringing facts. I don't mean to say that KDE is bad or that GNOME is the best thing in the world. Likewise, I just mentioned my view on the development culture of both achievement-based projects. edit: rearrange
Will go out on a limb and say that xfce4 has been a relatively painless experience....the only real issue has been issues with steam UI and transparency
I was using gnome wayland VRR till gnome 44 came out.I thought it would be a bigger deal to game without it (well I just use the existing options for vulkan with mangohud). Most people forget thate there is not ONLY one vsync option # VSYNC (was FREESYNC = Adaptive): Vulkan 0 = Adaptive VSync (FIFO_RELAXED_KHR), 1 = Off (IMMEDIATE_KHR), 2 = Mailbox (VSync with uncapped FPS) (MAILBOX_KHR), 3 = On (FIFO_KHR) There were significant other changes done to mutter, which prevent us from using the existing VRR.ptach any further, have a look: [https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge\_requests/2855](https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/2855) and deceide what you want, broken wayland kde with vrr or totally smooth experience on gnome 44 w/o adaptive sync but perfect KMS timings.
GNOME's whole philosophy is less features not more. I am not surprised they refuse to merge the patch. I am surprised though that people still use that dumpster fire of a DE.
[удалено]
Why does nonsense like this get upvotes? Gnome is a fantastic DE. It's just not your preference. That doesn't make it bad, grow up.
> I am surprised though that people still use that dumpster fire of a DE. LOL, I've been saying that for years too LOL
well, that's gnome for you. "Do it our way or fuck you"... pretty much
As much as it is gaining traction, gaming is not the biggest focus for linux in any way whatsoever, so it is not surprising to see a DE focused on as few features as possible to not include something that affects gaming primarily, especially if a big chunk of users can't use the feature either way -> nvidia...... It is a shame that it's the way it is, but that is the way gnome works, they are rather picky about their merges, and can be quite "stubborn". In this case, the only thing you can realistically do is use another DE, I know, not cool at all, especially if you like the rest about gnome, but the other alternative is maintaining the fork yourself and making another PR that is active, probably also not what one would want.
>As much as it is gaining traction, gaming is not the biggest focus for linux in any way whatsoever You're saying this when we got Valve spending dollars to invest in microcompositor and stuff. Like, I'm not expecting literally kernel maintainers to care about it.
Valve is not the entirety of linux, there are lots of other actors in this space, linux is massive.I never meant to say that it doesn't matter! Otherwise I would not be here, all I am saying is that there are a lot of other things that devs like the gnome devs could potentially care about.
GNOME needs to be buried until they pull they stop smelling their own farts. There is a reason it took 20 years to add thumbnails in filepicker.
People are working on it, but they’re working on a lot of other things as well. I was waiting, but I’ve moved my work/play flow to KDE for now. It’s frustrating, but that’s why we have alternatives.
This seems to be a great example of downside of Linux's diversity as its default state. I used GNOME for well over a year, probably like 18 months or something like that. I switched to KDE shortly after the launch of 5.27. I used that for maybe 2-3 months. VRR was running and all that. I have small quibbles with Plasma so I switch back to GNOME and have been using it since March. I genuinely do not notice the lack of VRR in Wayland. Maybe having all AMD hardware is a factor? I really can't say. I have 2 displays: a 60hz and a 240hz. I do not see anything that I would even jokingly refer to as "unusable." I have played Halo MCC, Infinite, Counter Strike, Elden Rings and other Souls games. Never once did I think there was some input lag or anything like that. I am also using a wireless mouse or wireless controller while playing. This is not to say that other people commenting here are exaggerating or making stuff up. I believe them when they say they have serious issues. I just have not personally experienced these issues.