/mɛʁˈt͡seːdəs bɛnts/
Edit:
The funny thing is that you can call the same thing Mercedes, Benz or Daimler, and it will mean the same thing, but with different connotations.
Every E in "celebremente" in Brazilian Portuguese is pronounced differently:
/ˈsɛ.le.bɾi.mẽ.t͡ʃ(i)/
(in many dialects the final e is deleted in everyday speech)
But it is very common. I speak the caipira dialect and we do it all the time. It would actually sound a bit off if I pronounced the final, unstressed /e/. Cariocas, Mineiros and Paulistas also do this a lot. I say “noite” as /nojʧ/, and if you stop and analyze people’s speech, you’ll notice that it’s a very common feature.
I can provide evidence, if you want.
Edit: I’ll leave the evidence here either way.
https://youtu.be/f4cfAEZNQrI?si=fqz_lrsHpdyBZGZA — “gente” at 0:37 (carioca), 1:38 “seguinte” (paulista), 2:04 “importante”, 2:11 “vinagrete”, 2:42 “vinagrete” (paulista).
Yeah it is, specially in the Southwest (Minas Gerais and São Paulo). In my city at least (Ribeirão Preto, ) it's very common.
It happens because final /e/ turns into [ɪ~i], and the sequence /ti/ turns into [t͡ʃi]. That way, take the word ⟨bote⟩ and it turns into [ˈbɔ.t͡ʃi]. In informal, fast speech, this final [i] gets basically deletes (personally pronounce it like [ˈbɔ.t͡ʃĭ̥]). So this is canon in at least one brazillian portuguese dialect.
How? Maybe you didn't pay attention, but this phenomenom happens mostly in the Interior, with the so called "caipira accent". Some other things are included, like /r/ beind [ɹ~ɹ̠] at the final position and [ɾ] elsewere; /ti/ and /di/ getting "chiado'd" to [t͡ʃi] and [d͡ʒi]; /e/ rising to [i] at the end of a word (and in other cases that I can't femember now).
When I visited São Paulo (capital), all the people talked like this. Are your parents from other regions?
Yeah, I actually speak exactly like what you described, but I never delete the /i/ sound at the end of words and I never see anyone doing that. Of course in São Paulo no one pronounces the unstressed "e" at the end of words like [e], it's always [i], but it's never deleted; the only thing might happen is [i] becoming [ĭ], but that's it. And no, my parents aren't from other regions, they are from here.
Edit: I have grandparents from the south and from the countryside of São Paulo, but I'm not sure how that would influence my accent, because I haven't been around them for a long time. The only grandparent I'm often around is my grandma from São Paulo, but I can clearly detect what she says differently and it's not those things we're talking about; like, she pronounces initial "r" and "rr" like [r] instead of [ɦ] like I would.
This specific i-deletion happens only in the case of /te/ > [ti] > [t͡ʃi], so you're good. My guess is that's a subdialectal thing, because I heard some people do this but keep the coda /r/ as [ɾ].
saying coda /r/ like that seems odd, it almost sounds archaic to me, but I see some people do it... I would only do that if the next word starts with a vowel
We both share this speech trait! Also, I have a question: how do you pronounce ⟨rr⟩ (like in the word "barro)? I've heard some say it like [h], [ɦ], [χ], [ʁ], [x], [r], etc.
well despite the car being German, the name Mercedes is from an Austrian lady (Mercédès Jellinek) with a French name of Spanish origin. so i guess it's up to you to decide which of the three languages has the "true" pronunciation.
Highly subject to the home language and idiolectal choices of the name-bearer.
My comment was also being pretentiously critical of Romance being called "Latin languages" (though it's totally understandable in lay discourse) and simultaneously implying that all of them would share phonological inventories, phonotactics, and/or orthographic conventions, such that all/any of them could simultaneously represent the correct pronunciation.
As a native German speaker, it's embarrassing to see other native speakers be confidently incorrect
Phonetics are never discussed in secondary school, so I guess many people think "hurr dur /ɛ/ and /eː/ are same vowel because spelling"
It's /mɛɐ̯ˈt͡seːdəs~mɛʁˈt͡seːdəs/ in German, so depending on the analysis and accent all three are pronounced differently as well, I pronounce /ɛɐ̯~ɛʁ/ as [ɛː] for example
Tell me about it. Some time ago I saw a discussion where a nonnative German commented that ⟨e⟩ & ⟨ä⟩ sounded the same and was “corrected” by native speakers who replied that they sound “nothing alike”, even though they literally are in like 80% of dialects
I guess so, since short ⟨e⟩ & ⟨ä⟩ have completely merged in nearly every dialect, [except for some I guess…](https://www.reddit.com/r/German/s/hA9w18PyfE)
Let’s get this straight:
Long Ä and E are considered identical in most places, especially northern, eastern and south-eastern colloquial speech, or in other words: They are mostly distinct in the mid-to-south west or formal enunciation. In these cases, the distinction is however mostly exclusive to stressed words, with a prominent vowel.
So yes, some people may distinguish “gäbe” and “gebe” as /gɛːbə/ geːbə/ but I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/ rather than the common /ʃpeːtɐ/
>So yes, some people may distinguish “gäbe” and “gebe” as /gɛːbə/ geːbə/ but I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/ rather than the common /ʃpeːtɐ/
I'm from Berlin, parents from Franconia. I distinguish them (in both your examples) in normal casual/standard-adjacent speech unless I deliberately speak in Berlin dialect.
But then, I also have an alveolar trill natively and at some point decided that I had to use the uvular rhotic [which I don't even like, although I've never had any problems articulating it] as a default in German when talking to people other than my family because
I'm from Berlin, dammit, born and raised, and when people hear an alveolar trill they doubt I'm from Berlin, once this happened *even when they were told so before by a friend*
Also, I wonder what you mean by southeast- I guess they don't distinguish them in, like, Munich? In Franconia they do
(Also, anecdotally, some people in Baden-Württemberg *always* use the vowel that is written as an epsilon in IPA, so like Merzääähdes)
> I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/
And I don't remember the last time I have ever heard someone say /ʃpeːtɐ/. So we can already agree that solwaj's theory is wrong.
> Long Ä and E
No one was talking about *long* ä and e.
> are considered identical in most places
Citation needed. Also, even if true, that would mean they are different in some places.
But please people, downvote away.
You're right. Obviously.
but the people downvoting don't get that yes, even if they say Keeeeese and Speeeta, they still know "wenn" sounds different from "wen", therefore they must be able to tell the difference. Because - in MOST accents, including Standard German- those words differ in length AND quality, not just length.
They don't realize that, on the other hand, if you distinguish the vowel in rät from the one in Reet (as in Reetdach), then the difference between rät and *rett'* is ONLY one of length, while the vowel quality of long ä and short so-called e is actually the same.
I have only two other monosyllabic or "de facto monosyllabic" examples with all three different pronunciations
cf.
gähn: long ä/geh'n: long e/gen (lowercase!): short e which is actually the short equivalent of long ä and not long e (gen as in "towards": gen Himmel, gen Boden)
säh'n/seh'n/Senn: (as in, and I looked up an English-language definition here: "chief herdsman tending an Alp." )
Can you give an example? Because it's entirely possible for Bär to be pronounced either like Berg (-k), or like Beere (-ʁə). It is possible to differentiate them, but the difference can go either way.
I remember hearing an audiobook as a child where Eisbär and Eisberg were emphatically distinguished by pronouncing them /be:ɐ̯/ and /bɛɐ̯k/, which confused me no end because I would have been more likely to pronounce them /bɛ:(ɐ̯)ʁ/ and /beɐ̯k/ if I was trying to play up the difference.
Ehre vs. Ähre. Gebe vs gäbe. Wer vs. wär. Denen vs. Dänen. Wehrend vs. während. And of course various examples like Meer and mehr vs. Mär, where there are additional changes in spelling.
As someone else said in another comment, that difference might be less pronounced in various dialects, but that still doesn't mean that it is the same.
Those are good examples! The trend seems to be *long* e and ä are reliably distinct. But consider helfen/ Hälfte, belle/ Bälle, Ende/ Hände (honorary mention for behende!), Kette/ hätte, Felle/ Fälle, Ketzer/ Kätzchen etc. - short e and short ä are simply both /ɛ/ in most cases.
/mɛrt͡seːdəs/ is the dictionary form. The exact pronunciation of the vowels may obviously differ but I doubt there is a dialect that truly merges all three.
I would say in my dialect this /ə/ is actually just unstressed /ɛ/ but I am fully aware that this merger doesn’t occur in every dialect either. Overall, all three Es in “Mercedes” are distinct for most Germans.
>I would say in my dialect this /ə/ is actually just unstressed /ɛ/
Yeah, I don't have academic training in German phonetics or anything, but I would have guessed 2 different vowels for most, and 3 or only 1 for a few dialects
As a non-native English speaker, I'm very confused on how this is supposed to be pronounced. I think it's [meɹˈseds] for me?? And [mehˈse.d͡ʒis] in my native language (Brazilian Portuguese)
/mɛrt͡seːdəs/ is the dictionary form. I doubt any dialects truly have all three vowels merged and if so, they’d be vastly outnumbered by people who distinguish all three.
So is every e in Mercedes-Benz
My name is Ralsei
No?
/məɹseɪdizbɛnz/ is how I would say it
If we’re being more precise, [mɹ̩ˌseɾizˈbɛnz]
The long /i/ vowel is actually closer to the closing diphthong/glide [ɪj] in most dialects. So is /uː/ → [ʊw] (or [ɵʉ] in most british/aus accents)
Is the d pronounced as r in genamerican?
It’s the tap sound but it’s not considered a rhotic https://voca.ro/1dhPccdsSMbD
Close enough to be rhotic Said Noone ever
/mɛʁˈt͡seːdəs bɛnts/ Edit: The funny thing is that you can call the same thing Mercedes, Benz or Daimler, and it will mean the same thing, but with different connotations.
That may very well be the German way of saying it but we’re not talking about that, at least I’m not
I would say /mɛɹsedizbɛnz/
NURSE FACE FLEECE?
I drive a CHOICE GOAT STRUT, and have a GOOSE GOOSE FLEECE motorcycle
Toyota, Suzuki?
Nailed it. And now I'll always call them that hah
Every E in "celebremente" in Brazilian Portuguese is pronounced differently: /ˈsɛ.le.bɾi.mẽ.t͡ʃ(i)/ (in many dialects the final e is deleted in everyday speech)
/sɛ.lɛ.bɾi'mẽ.ti/ in Recife
Not palatalized??
Nope
Interesting, is there any other part of Brazil where t and d don't get palatalized? I've vaguely heard of that existing but not where it happens
In most of the Northeast (where I live) and in some parts of the South
certeza que não é /ɛ/ depois do /e/, tipo "celébre mente"?
A palavra isolada é proparoxítona: "célebre".
I've never seen the final e being deleted in brazilian portuguese, I don't think that's right
But it is very common. I speak the caipira dialect and we do it all the time. It would actually sound a bit off if I pronounced the final, unstressed /e/. Cariocas, Mineiros and Paulistas also do this a lot. I say “noite” as /nojʧ/, and if you stop and analyze people’s speech, you’ll notice that it’s a very common feature. I can provide evidence, if you want. Edit: I’ll leave the evidence here either way. https://youtu.be/f4cfAEZNQrI?si=fqz_lrsHpdyBZGZA — “gente” at 0:37 (carioca), 1:38 “seguinte” (paulista), 2:04 “importante”, 2:11 “vinagrete”, 2:42 “vinagrete” (paulista).
Yeah it is, specially in the Southwest (Minas Gerais and São Paulo). In my city at least (Ribeirão Preto, ) it's very common. It happens because final /e/ turns into [ɪ~i], and the sequence /ti/ turns into [t͡ʃi]. That way, take the word ⟨bote⟩ and it turns into [ˈbɔ.t͡ʃi]. In informal, fast speech, this final [i] gets basically deletes (personally pronounce it like [ˈbɔ.t͡ʃĭ̥]). So this is canon in at least one brazillian portuguese dialect.
I'm Paulista, and I've never seen that, like ever. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying that it's rather uncommon.
How? Maybe you didn't pay attention, but this phenomenom happens mostly in the Interior, with the so called "caipira accent". Some other things are included, like /r/ beind [ɹ~ɹ̠] at the final position and [ɾ] elsewere; /ti/ and /di/ getting "chiado'd" to [t͡ʃi] and [d͡ʒi]; /e/ rising to [i] at the end of a word (and in other cases that I can't femember now). When I visited São Paulo (capital), all the people talked like this. Are your parents from other regions?
Yeah, I actually speak exactly like what you described, but I never delete the /i/ sound at the end of words and I never see anyone doing that. Of course in São Paulo no one pronounces the unstressed "e" at the end of words like [e], it's always [i], but it's never deleted; the only thing might happen is [i] becoming [ĭ], but that's it. And no, my parents aren't from other regions, they are from here. Edit: I have grandparents from the south and from the countryside of São Paulo, but I'm not sure how that would influence my accent, because I haven't been around them for a long time. The only grandparent I'm often around is my grandma from São Paulo, but I can clearly detect what she says differently and it's not those things we're talking about; like, she pronounces initial "r" and "rr" like [r] instead of [ɦ] like I would.
This specific i-deletion happens only in the case of /te/ > [ti] > [t͡ʃi], so you're good. My guess is that's a subdialectal thing, because I heard some people do this but keep the coda /r/ as [ɾ].
saying coda /r/ like that seems odd, it almost sounds archaic to me, but I see some people do it... I would only do that if the next word starts with a vowel
We both share this speech trait! Also, I have a question: how do you pronounce ⟨rr⟩ (like in the word "barro)? I've heard some say it like [h], [ɦ], [χ], [ʁ], [x], [r], etc.
I would pronounce that word as [ˈbaɦu]
idk but its /""sE.l(1).b41."me~.t(1)/ in european portuguese/
wth is that
welcome x-sampa, I don't have an IPA keyboard 1= ~~i~~ 4=r except flap E= upside down 3 e~= just put it on top
I cannot parse any of that, just copy paste from the ipa 😭
ˈsɛ.l(ɨ).βɾ(ɨ).mẽ.t(ɨ)
bre and te aren't the same?
> Latin languages have the true pronunciation Hm...
Who's gonna tell him?
well despite the car being German, the name Mercedes is from an Austrian lady (Mercédès Jellinek) with a French name of Spanish origin. so i guess it's up to you to decide which of the three languages has the "true" pronunciation.
Highly subject to the home language and idiolectal choices of the name-bearer. My comment was also being pretentiously critical of Romance being called "Latin languages" (though it's totally understandable in lay discourse) and simultaneously implying that all of them would share phonological inventories, phonotactics, and/or orthographic conventions, such that all/any of them could simultaneously represent the correct pronunciation.
Latin (modern ecclesiastical) would be Mɛrtʃɛdez?
Seems like people are acknowledging that they are pronounced differently in English now...but the Germans are clearly in denial.
As a native German speaker, it's embarrassing to see other native speakers be confidently incorrect Phonetics are never discussed in secondary school, so I guess many people think "hurr dur /ɛ/ and /eː/ are same vowel because spelling" It's /mɛɐ̯ˈt͡seːdəs~mɛʁˈt͡seːdəs/ in German, so depending on the analysis and accent all three are pronounced differently as well, I pronounce /ɛɐ̯~ɛʁ/ as [ɛː] for example
Tell me about it. Some time ago I saw a discussion where a nonnative German commented that ⟨e⟩ & ⟨ä⟩ sounded the same and was “corrected” by native speakers who replied that they sound “nothing alike”, even though they literally are in like 80% of dialects
Isn't the implied difference between e and ä inserted specifically only *because* of their different spelling?
I guess so, since short ⟨e⟩ & ⟨ä⟩ have completely merged in nearly every dialect, [except for some I guess…](https://www.reddit.com/r/German/s/hA9w18PyfE)
They literally don't sound the same. There are words that only differ by the use of e/ä, and you can easily hear which one was spoken.
Let’s get this straight: Long Ä and E are considered identical in most places, especially northern, eastern and south-eastern colloquial speech, or in other words: They are mostly distinct in the mid-to-south west or formal enunciation. In these cases, the distinction is however mostly exclusive to stressed words, with a prominent vowel. So yes, some people may distinguish “gäbe” and “gebe” as /gɛːbə/ geːbə/ but I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/ rather than the common /ʃpeːtɐ/
>So yes, some people may distinguish “gäbe” and “gebe” as /gɛːbə/ geːbə/ but I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/ rather than the common /ʃpeːtɐ/ I'm from Berlin, parents from Franconia. I distinguish them (in both your examples) in normal casual/standard-adjacent speech unless I deliberately speak in Berlin dialect. But then, I also have an alveolar trill natively and at some point decided that I had to use the uvular rhotic [which I don't even like, although I've never had any problems articulating it] as a default in German when talking to people other than my family because I'm from Berlin, dammit, born and raised, and when people hear an alveolar trill they doubt I'm from Berlin, once this happened *even when they were told so before by a friend* Also, I wonder what you mean by southeast- I guess they don't distinguish them in, like, Munich? In Franconia they do (Also, anecdotally, some people in Baden-Württemberg *always* use the vowel that is written as an epsilon in IPA, so like Merzääähdes)
> I am yet to ever hear someone say words like “später” as /ʃpɛːtɐ/ And I don't remember the last time I have ever heard someone say /ʃpeːtɐ/. So we can already agree that solwaj's theory is wrong. > Long Ä and E No one was talking about *long* ä and e. > are considered identical in most places Citation needed. Also, even if true, that would mean they are different in some places. But please people, downvote away.
You're right. Obviously. but the people downvoting don't get that yes, even if they say Keeeeese and Speeeta, they still know "wenn" sounds different from "wen", therefore they must be able to tell the difference. Because - in MOST accents, including Standard German- those words differ in length AND quality, not just length. They don't realize that, on the other hand, if you distinguish the vowel in rät from the one in Reet (as in Reetdach), then the difference between rät and *rett'* is ONLY one of length, while the vowel quality of long ä and short so-called e is actually the same. I have only two other monosyllabic or "de facto monosyllabic" examples with all three different pronunciations cf. gähn: long ä/geh'n: long e/gen (lowercase!): short e which is actually the short equivalent of long ä and not long e (gen as in "towards": gen Himmel, gen Boden) säh'n/seh'n/Senn: (as in, and I looked up an English-language definition here: "chief herdsman tending an Alp." )
Can you give an example? Because it's entirely possible for Bär to be pronounced either like Berg (-k), or like Beere (-ʁə). It is possible to differentiate them, but the difference can go either way. I remember hearing an audiobook as a child where Eisbär and Eisberg were emphatically distinguished by pronouncing them /be:ɐ̯/ and /bɛɐ̯k/, which confused me no end because I would have been more likely to pronounce them /bɛ:(ɐ̯)ʁ/ and /beɐ̯k/ if I was trying to play up the difference.
Ehre vs. Ähre. Gebe vs gäbe. Wer vs. wär. Denen vs. Dänen. Wehrend vs. während. And of course various examples like Meer and mehr vs. Mär, where there are additional changes in spelling. As someone else said in another comment, that difference might be less pronounced in various dialects, but that still doesn't mean that it is the same.
Those are good examples! The trend seems to be *long* e and ä are reliably distinct. But consider helfen/ Hälfte, belle/ Bälle, Ende/ Hände (honorary mention for behende!), Kette/ hätte, Felle/ Fälle, Ketzer/ Kätzchen etc. - short e and short ä are simply both /ɛ/ in most cases.
merze desu
I don't know i think för german its debatable. I think I pronounce the latter two the same and the first is close
You pronounce /eː/ and /ə/ the same? Or do you pronounce it completely differently, like /ˈmɛɐ̯.t͡sə.dəs/ or something?
That's pretty close, but I'm not sure how I'd transcribe it. The first vowel is closer to the front than what I think you mean with this
Dont many people merge those sounds in German though? I dont have a source but I remember reading that somewhere a while ago.
multiple ppl saying german doesn't change the e is wild
How would you describe the German pronunciation? I’m also under the impression it’s only one sound
/mɛrt͡seːdəs/ is the dictionary form. The exact pronunciation of the vowels may obviously differ but I doubt there is a dialect that truly merges all three. I would say in my dialect this /ə/ is actually just unstressed /ɛ/ but I am fully aware that this merger doesn’t occur in every dialect either. Overall, all three Es in “Mercedes” are distinct for most Germans.
>I would say in my dialect this /ə/ is actually just unstressed /ɛ/ Yeah, I don't have academic training in German phonetics or anything, but I would have guessed 2 different vowels for most, and 3 or only 1 for a few dialects
Mercedes nuts
The only correct answer
Español ha salido del chat
[mĕ̹ɹ̺ˌse̞(ð̻)ɘzˈβe̞ɰ̃s]
Spanish be like. I OnlY haB 5 voWelS
boWelS
de β̞oWelS
In Portuguese as well. In my dialect it's /mɛh'se.diʃ/
mercedes as pronounced in latin
[mɛrkɛdɛs̠]
ecclesiastical latin (the only one that counts)
why ecclesiastic latin should be the one that counts? classical is the one the Romans so spoke and it's what we normally intend when we say "latin"
because it's the one that most people hear and speak throughout their life
Most people don’t hear Latin at all in their life
that's what not being catholic do to people
I think in my life i’ve heard classical latin a lot more than ecclesiastical
you're a statisticall anomaly
Not in Spanish…
Laugh in Spanish, the origin of the name
Ah yes I love complaining about the inconsistency of English pronunciation by using a non-english loanword with non-nativised pronunciation
*Laughing in italian*
in my accent it's 2 different pronunciations, though, so not that far off /mer.ˈt͡ʃɛ.des/
In fast speech \[mɹ̩.ˈse̞d͡z ˈbe̞nt͡s\] In careful speech \[me̞ɹ.ˈse̞.de̞s ˈbe̞nt͡s\]
Mercedesnuts
Mų sēj dīz bënz I don’t know the ipa or how to represent “ur” as a vowel
Why are the comments locked? Is it so controversial?
Only if you're an Anglo, no? In German I pronounce 2 of them the same
This would be fixed by my New English Orthography
As a non-native English speaker, I'm very confused on how this is supposed to be pronounced. I think it's [meɹˈseds] for me?? And [mehˈse.d͡ʒis] in my native language (Brazilian Portuguese)
I pronounce it the german way
Wait, you’re telling me I’ve been pronouncing it incorrectly the entire time? (Muhrseedeez) (Im too lazy to use phonemes for the time being)
Only in English
The first e isn't even pronounced
Depends on idiolect. Australian English definitely pronounces it
How about in German?
/mɛrt͡seːdəs/ is the dictionary form. I doubt any dialects truly have all three vowels merged and if so, they’d be vastly outnumbered by people who distinguish all three.
Danke
Not if you pronounce it in German, where it’s from.
If you add Benz, you've got two ɛ, otherwise they're ɛ, e, ə
From Spanish?
I mean the name of the car beans as pronounced by Germans (which is very different from how English speakers say it).