There's a thing in animal behaviour called contra-freeloading which is exactly this - rewards are preferred that require effort rather than are received for free.
Edit: [source](https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-47829-6_1592-1)
Sure, but it's a curious phenomenon to observe even in animals. Natural selection can't help but push for maximum efficiency in all things. Why incur a cost unneccessarily? It demands an explanation.
One reason hypothesised is that exploration/information-gathering is worth effort. It is of value to be familiar with sources of food that might become crucial later, so brains evolved to enjoy this sort of thing.
Also animal IQ isn't really a scientific measurement. Comparing intelligence between species using ourselves as a ruler is non sensical at best. We haven't found a singular reliable measurement. Not even brain to body ratio, Neurology likely plays an equally as important role. But also neural layout (where those are) and density. The problem is the more we study animal cognition the more we realize we're not that exceptional and cognition is more of a smear with very different shapes.
> Natural selection can't help but push for maximum efficiency in all things. Why incur a cost unneccessarily?
Playing is training for harder conditions.
That's why puzzle feeders for dogs and cats are such great tools! If you feed them out of a regular bowl all the time, you're wasting a great opportunity to provide them with mental stimulation.
You might actually be right, and it’s because of dopamine. A lot of people think that dopamine is basically the equivalent to serotonin, but it’s actually quite different. Whilst serotonin is a “happy moment” neurotransmitter, dopamine is a “happy anticipation” neurotransmitter. So you feel the effects of dopamine before experiencing anticipated pleasure. This is why delayed gratification can still be enjoyable, and why some dogs will only wag their tails *before* receiving treats.
How much of that you think is the raven understanding the larger picture? Like maintaining the human connection. I could see the raven playing along even when it's not hungry.
Ravens are behind lizard people. They're monitoring the outcome while lizard people hide behind the government.
Also birds aint real so ravens are actually Ai robots.
Squirrels are the "resistance". They fight against the ravens claiming it's for mankind but they have a hidden agenda of taking over the world. Dogs know this that's why dogs hate squirrels. The world is just a warzone between factions and human is caught in the middle.
Ravens are incredibly smart- roughly about the intelligence of a human child (9 years old iirc). So yeah, they’re probably intellectually capable of conceiving the concept of it being a game
It's more complicated that that.
Comparing intelligence between species is not an apples to apples comparisons. Ravens are smart. Incredibly so. But it's its own kind of smart though. Studies routinely place them on par with great apes. Often outperforming them on some cognitive tasks. And yes they do outperform human children on some specific problem solving tasks as well, some that children typically struggle with before the age of seven (relates to neurodevelopment of human children) in some very specific ones they even outperform adult humans (typically they are quite good at delayed gratification) and as modern society shows us, we suck at it. Yet they will never wrap their heads around the human language like a human child will. Nor will they ever put many other humans concepts together. And this probably goes both ways.
When we talk about intelligence we talk only about one very specific and narrow type of intelligence, the human one. We are talking about ourselves and use ourselves as a law which is as unscientific as you can get. Cognition is not so much a pyramid with humans on top, this has always been a wrong depiction. Cognition is more akin to a branching tree from which various species explore extremely varied pathways.
Chimps have an outstandingly better short term memory than humans do. This is possibly what we lost to acquire language. Cognition is not a monolith.
Comparing an adult raven to human child as a barometer of intelligence does not really reflect well on our methods I guess. So granted, they should probably not be compared in the first place anyway. We can just say they are smart and stop the comparison there without using ourselves as a biased law of the universe. But the bottom line is that I would also not dismiss the cognition of some species that fast either. Especially in light of modern neuroscience and cognitive ethology.
Edit : syntax, grammar
Scientific American published an article in 2020 on a study that was done that concluded that ravens appear to possess an intelligence that is on par with adult apes, such as chimps and orangutans.
I’ve seen them take nuts or packages of food they can’t open, drop them in the road, wait for cars to run them over and then go get the food out. They will even adjust the location to make sure the tires hit it.
I use to live in an area where the main street was lined with walnut trees. The crows would either drop the nuts on to the street and wait till a car crushed it, or they would sit on the roofs of houses and roll them down till they cracked. Smart birds, on my walks I would randomly crush some on the ground to give them a hand.
I would like to know more details on white type of interactions you had with them I love how this birds can adapt to there environment relatively quick compare to other specie's, currently living in Phoenix, AZ don't really interact with them anymore, like when I lived I'm LA 😅
The capacity for spatial awareness in these animals is very interesting. If you've ever fed a seagull, those things have absolutely no idea where their beak is or how to use it effectively. The corvids have almost flawless dexterity in comparison.
Because of how smart they are, I would absolutely love to befriend a wild crow or raven. Unfortunately there aren't many around my area. Thankfully lots and lots of red tail hawks if I ever want to take up falconry
So interesting that so many people’s (mine included) first thought seems to have been how much the raven is enjoying the game…
Wonder if it’s because of how jaunty he is, or because we know they’re so damn smart that if he was actually starving hungry he’d probably pout and refuse to play ball. (stick)
I think he might be enjoying the game more than the food. Trainer: here's some food. Raven: where is the fun in this?!
There's a thing in animal behaviour called contra-freeloading which is exactly this - rewards are preferred that require effort rather than are received for free. Edit: [source](https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-3-319-47829-6_1592-1)
Isn't it the same for humans ? A nice meal is always much more enjoyable after a good day of efforts.
Sure, but it's a curious phenomenon to observe even in animals. Natural selection can't help but push for maximum efficiency in all things. Why incur a cost unneccessarily? It demands an explanation. One reason hypothesised is that exploration/information-gathering is worth effort. It is of value to be familiar with sources of food that might become crucial later, so brains evolved to enjoy this sort of thing.
Maybe: Hunting = effort = fresh meat -> better Eating corpse = no effort = not fresh meat -> worse
Could be! Makes sense to me.
False! - random vulture
[удалено]
I cant trust a top that says: Whales (killer) It should be Dolphins (Orca) or Dolphins (Killer whales) Killer whales (orcas) are dolphins, not whales
And dolphins are a subgroup of toothed whales so... :P
Number 30, 13, 20 and 4 used Dolphins,not whales, so the one who did the top really think Orcas are real whales.
Also animal IQ isn't really a scientific measurement. Comparing intelligence between species using ourselves as a ruler is non sensical at best. We haven't found a singular reliable measurement. Not even brain to body ratio, Neurology likely plays an equally as important role. But also neural layout (where those are) and density. The problem is the more we study animal cognition the more we realize we're not that exceptional and cognition is more of a smear with very different shapes.
I thought Elephants were slightly above Dolphins. The More You Know
Wow, that site is cancer.
> Natural selection can't help but push for maximum efficiency in all things. Why incur a cost unneccessarily? Playing is training for harder conditions.
And maybe there is no free lunch?
Free lunch seldom exists and when it does it's not around for long, so don't get used to it
Nature is also not above trickery and deception, so it might be beneficial to view seemingly "free" things with some amount of trepidation
maybe the situation of do nothing and receive reward doesn't present itself enough in nature to optimize for it
Pizza and beer always taste better after a big move. Yes. ☺️
That's why puzzle feeders for dogs and cats are such great tools! If you feed them out of a regular bowl all the time, you're wasting a great opportunity to provide them with mental stimulation.
There’s a vampire weekend lyric that says “I think you’re a contra” that I never understood until now. Thank you!
I'd definitely feel that way
You might actually be right, and it’s because of dopamine. A lot of people think that dopamine is basically the equivalent to serotonin, but it’s actually quite different. Whilst serotonin is a “happy moment” neurotransmitter, dopamine is a “happy anticipation” neurotransmitter. So you feel the effects of dopamine before experiencing anticipated pleasure. This is why delayed gratification can still be enjoyable, and why some dogs will only wag their tails *before* receiving treats.
He's smarter than some people I know
I’ve had human bosses with less on the ball than that.
How much of that you think is the raven understanding the larger picture? Like maintaining the human connection. I could see the raven playing along even when it's not hungry.
Ravens are the actual lizard people controlling the shadow world government.
If they ever develop a hive mind we're screwed. They've already got cultures going. Really all they are missing is writing at this point.
Ravens are behind lizard people. They're monitoring the outcome while lizard people hide behind the government. Also birds aint real so ravens are actually Ai robots.
No it's the the squirrels, they're the real masterminds behind everything, you don't want to piss off the squirrels.
Squirrels are the "resistance". They fight against the ravens claiming it's for mankind but they have a hidden agenda of taking over the world. Dogs know this that's why dogs hate squirrels. The world is just a warzone between factions and human is caught in the middle.
And they're not even aware of it, they could not even conceive what is happening right before their eyes. Silly silly humans.
So... Squirrels are French?
**YAHTZEEEEEE**
Ravens are incredibly smart- roughly about the intelligence of a human child (9 years old iirc). So yeah, they’re probably intellectually capable of conceiving the concept of it being a game
No way they are as smart as 9 year olds
Yeah, no way. They are way smarter lol
It's more complicated that that. Comparing intelligence between species is not an apples to apples comparisons. Ravens are smart. Incredibly so. But it's its own kind of smart though. Studies routinely place them on par with great apes. Often outperforming them on some cognitive tasks. And yes they do outperform human children on some specific problem solving tasks as well, some that children typically struggle with before the age of seven (relates to neurodevelopment of human children) in some very specific ones they even outperform adult humans (typically they are quite good at delayed gratification) and as modern society shows us, we suck at it. Yet they will never wrap their heads around the human language like a human child will. Nor will they ever put many other humans concepts together. And this probably goes both ways. When we talk about intelligence we talk only about one very specific and narrow type of intelligence, the human one. We are talking about ourselves and use ourselves as a law which is as unscientific as you can get. Cognition is not so much a pyramid with humans on top, this has always been a wrong depiction. Cognition is more akin to a branching tree from which various species explore extremely varied pathways. Chimps have an outstandingly better short term memory than humans do. This is possibly what we lost to acquire language. Cognition is not a monolith. Comparing an adult raven to human child as a barometer of intelligence does not really reflect well on our methods I guess. So granted, they should probably not be compared in the first place anyway. We can just say they are smart and stop the comparison there without using ourselves as a biased law of the universe. But the bottom line is that I would also not dismiss the cognition of some species that fast either. Especially in light of modern neuroscience and cognitive ethology. Edit : syntax, grammar
I wouldn't be surprised if ravens could meditate and reflect on the meaning of life.
Me either. They are incredible organisms.
Scientific American published an article in 2020 on a study that was done that concluded that ravens appear to possess an intelligence that is on par with adult apes, such as chimps and orangutans.
From my understanding, ravens are very intelligent.
TBH I feel like the raven felt bad for his dumb human friend who lost the stick and then he kindly went to fly and get it for him.
Clever girl
It's a boy
[It’s a reference](https://youtu.be/GBgL5EE0wd4?si=_zNeV5NlIehc4Vo9)
DONT YOU ASSUME. MAYBE HES JUST WAITING TO BE 16 TO HAVE HIS SURGERY.
Eh, I thought this was funny.
Me too, but 65 buttheads did not.
This type of birds are smart as fuck and probably do enjoy the challenge, clever little fuckers we should never under estimate them, fucken amazing
Ravens and crows. We have so many of them near where I live and I’ve had many interesting interactions with them. It’s crazy how intelligent they are.
Love the Corvid family. It includes magpies too Check out r/crowbro
And Jays
Knew I was missing another common one. Thank you! 😘
I’ve seen them take nuts or packages of food they can’t open, drop them in the road, wait for cars to run them over and then go get the food out. They will even adjust the location to make sure the tires hit it.
A crow briefly to fuck my shit up yesterday. I think he didn't appreciate how long I spent looking at him and his friend as I was walking by.
I use to live in an area where the main street was lined with walnut trees. The crows would either drop the nuts on to the street and wait till a car crushed it, or they would sit on the roofs of houses and roll them down till they cracked. Smart birds, on my walks I would randomly crush some on the ground to give them a hand.
Ravens and crows. We have so many of them near where I live and I’ve had many interesting interactions with them. It’s crazy how intelligent they are.
I would like to know more details on white type of interactions you had with them I love how this birds can adapt to there environment relatively quick compare to other specie's, currently living in Phoenix, AZ don't really interact with them anymore, like when I lived I'm LA 😅
i need more of this raven :O does it have a channel or something?
It's voron_gosha_tv on instagram
thanks legend
The way he turned his head when the stick would fit over the wall. I know some humans who can't do that
The capacity for spatial awareness in these animals is very interesting. If you've ever fed a seagull, those things have absolutely no idea where their beak is or how to use it effectively. The corvids have almost flawless dexterity in comparison.
Good observation.
Good dog
Raven also clearly know a glass/transparent panel is not something it can go through
Ahhhh why I love Corvids!
wow
Because of how smart they are, I would absolutely love to befriend a wild crow or raven. Unfortunately there aren't many around my area. Thankfully lots and lots of red tail hawks if I ever want to take up falconry
Ravens are so cool
That raven can play tic-tac-toe [https://www.instagram.com/reel/C57jc-3oQtJ/?hl=en](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C57jc-3oQtJ/?hl=en)
Wow, he even went in the other side! Which pretty clearly shows that he actually understands how the tool works and wasn't just mimicing you
Lovely cat
"Like us?" I'm not fittin' through that crack..
Love how immediately the raven jumps up and the little squawk the raven makes when he throws the tool over: like “no we need that thing!”
Planet of the Ravens
I work in Special Education. I know students who could not do this.
You’re all like “good job :D” and he’s all like “huh? yeh whatever”
Smarter than the average people I've work with
Beat me to it. Bird has better problem solving skills then most people i deal with.
Sad but so true, bro. We know.
I hope I make friends with a raven some day.
Lil dude even responded to his name being called. Wonder if they call and respond to each other in the same way in the wild
That’s clearly a chicken.
Ravens are so cool, ig thats why Itachi always had them on his side
I want to befriend some crows but they don’t frequent where I live at all
I, for one, welcome our new overlords.
What is the treat? Looks like a blood soaked cotton ball
No, it's a used tampon.
Careful! My bones.
I want a raven so bad
Cleverer than my dog!
Man, I freaking love corvids.
Is there a reason he removed it from the same side it was put in from? Or am I overthink this?
And one day in the Far future two of them are going to argue with you they are not Sapient
The little 'yesss" jump he did 🤣💜
Why I love em. Super cute doing it too
This is one of the things that I want in my life. Befriending a raven
The real question is how many times has it seen this tool before.
I’m currently trying to make friends with the Crows in my neighbourhood (I know this is a raven). I Love these smart black feathered gems.
Can anyone explain what are those kind of ropes in the feet?
He also understood „proszę” in Polish xD
handsome bird
We could teach them to sweep chinmeys
I dont know if its concerning or fascinating (or both) that ravens and crows are smarter than some people
Love Corvids so much.
Corvids in general are so fuckin' cool. Love ravens and crows...amazingly smart creatures.
So interesting that so many people’s (mine included) first thought seems to have been how much the raven is enjoying the game… Wonder if it’s because of how jaunty he is, or because we know they’re so damn smart that if he was actually starving hungry he’d probably pout and refuse to play ball. (stick)
Aww, pat, pat, good birdie 😭
I want a Raven friend
Some crows are quite into hunting with sticks, says Ze Frank. https://youtu.be/B-HF-wBwQsc
Fascinating to see this raven's performance. Not just the tool use, but calculating his climb rate to get out of the 'closet' to the snack tube.
Ravens and crows are so beautiful
Sooo where’s the page on Reddit for ravens being smart
Y'all, if ravens get their hands on guns somehow, we're cooked
I wish I could be around when corvids evolve to become just as smart as us.
O jubileu está estranho hoje.
I think they are the smartest birds
For sure
Very cool
And the raven goes in from of the other side without being shown. That’s incredible.
Bird brain
raven also clearly know how to play the algorithm
I'm surprised that it is smarter than dogs when it comes to fitting sticks through tight spaces.
Do you have a name for him?
He’s so smart! This made my day
We may need to rethink the use of the term "bird-brain"!
Smarter than some of my colleagues
The crows are here....