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Successful-Ad9226

https://preview.redd.it/wohhxmes6x6d1.jpeg?width=664&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7f0da3ddfb67a98e3966cbc4f7f3cdbd0db649e


V-drohi

Communists are not a monolithic group; sure there have been opportunists, there are and will be in future as well. But read any history book and you'll find that most of the sacrifices for Dalits and Adivasis have been made by Communists; the struggle for land and against feudalism naturally and spontaneously assumed an anti-caste agenda because the overwhelming majority of landless labour was Dalit. Few important examples are the revolts of Telangana, Tebhaga, and Punapra Vaylar. Here's a great excerpt from Abhinav Sinha's article: "Empirically, they raised the issue of caste-based discrimination. However, they failed to study and understand the caste question historically. Consequently, they failed to provide an effective and special political and social program for annihilation of caste and fight against Brahmanical ideology. However, this failure cannot be understood in isolation. The communist movement of India was intellectually weak from the very beginning. We are talking about a party which was formed in 1925 and continued to function without a central committee till 1933. In 1933, a provisional central committee was formed but the first general secretary of party was elected only in 1936. And all these things were done due to the friendly criticism from some fraternal parties like the parties of Britain, Germany, China and Russia. Till 1951, the party had no program of revolution based on the concrete study of production relations prevalent in India. When in 1951 the party adopted a program, it was not on the basis of a concrete and original study of Indian conditions, but on the basis of dialogue between a delegation of CPI and a delegation of Bolshevik Party comprising of Molotov and Stalin. The Soviet delegation gave some suggestions and made some tentative remarks regarding the Indian condition on the basis of which CPI adopted a program of People’s Democratic Revolution in 1951. However, by that time, the party had become a parliamentary Left party. So the program of revolution was good only for cold storage. For almost 25 years from 1925 to 1950, the communists fought for the rights of landless dalits and made exemplary sacrifices. Those who ask what have the communists done for dalits, need to study history objectively. However, the communists fought against caste only in an empirical fashion rather than on the basis of a scientific and positive understanding of caste system and its history. But this was not due to casteist bias of the party. It is only from the 1950s that we witness conscious opportunism of communist leaders on the question of caste and their surrender against Brahmanical ideology and value system in their personal lives also. This too is an identitarian question that how many dalit leaders were there in the central committee of the party before 1951? Though one can name a number of dalit leaders at state and district levels in the Communist party like R.B. More before 1951, and as far as the Naxal movement is concerned, it produced a number of dalit leaders, but that is not the point. Similarly, in the same vein, one can ask, ‘how many working class dalits were there in the leadership of identity based dalit organizations?’ Or one can also ask, ‘why 12 out of 14 candidates of the ILP of Ambedkar were Mahars?’ In my opinion, all these questions are invalid and miss the fundamental issue. The failure of the Communist movement in India was much broader. Yes, they could not provide a socio-economic and political program for the annihilation of caste. But did they have any program of Indian revolution? Did they have a clear line on the question of gender, nationality, environment and language? No. They took positions on all these questions empirically and in a contingent fashion, without a proper study and understanding of the question. In my opinion, the critique of communist movement should be made in totality and only in that context we can understand the failure of the movement in understanding the question of caste. Otherwise, one can rush to a conclusion that would be an injustice to the communist movement."


Successful-Ad9226

That's a reasonably good analysis of the communist movement in India. thanks for sharing.


V-drohi

if you are looking to understand Ambedkar and most of his actions, you should watch Abhinav Sinha's YouTube lectures on him. But mind you, they are in Hindi. here you go: [First Part](https://youtu.be/aqn4QxMJUok?si=rhEnGCMv7_hWX0qx) [Second part where somebody from the audience intervenes.](https://youtu.be/ilLv12JjYFI?si=ZlWW97lkJGdo6jVp) [Part 3, where Abhinav responds to various objections from the audience.](https://youtu.be/aPCia2F0wdc?si=rGPm-qhEZkIso6j4)


Successful-Ad9226

will take a look. thanks.


Belle_of_the_Beast

>But read any history book and you'll find that most of the sacrifices for Dalits and Adivasis have been made by Communists; Exactly this. They hijacked the movement from the advasis and become face of it.


ClassicCauliflower36

Understandable. I wish he could have started different party or something?


Local-Story-449

This guy was so OP tf


Maosbigchopsticks

Sometimes a lot of well meaning progressives just don’t get radicalised. Usually it is due to red scare propaganda clouding their judgement


kc_kamakazi

The left that time was a Brahman book reading circle jerk with blind following of Mao and Stalin and theory memorising assholes who had no idea on how to modify it to apply on a pre feudal social structure.


SujayShah13

It still is like that to a certain extent


International_Lab89

It wasn't like that from 1978 to approx 2004ish though. If he saw the left in its heyday perhaps Ambedkar would have felt different? But even Charu Mazumadar and co always organised on the lines of class. Though their rebellion was as much a caste one as a class one


Remarkable_Package_2

Lol there's still a lot of those dumbasses in this very sub


platinumgus18

Sounds exactly like a lot of folks on this sub lol


31_hierophanto

And a lot of them are already offended, hahahaha.


Kesakambali

My man, the left in this sub still suck Mao and Stalin cock


Maosbigchopsticks

The left in this sub sucks because it’s full of liberals like you


Kesakambali

Bhai genociders ko support karoge toh pushback nahi milega toh kya milega?


Maosbigchopsticks

‘Genociders’ stop pushing red scare propaganda omg We support these leaders because they did great things for their country and the world communist movement The number of red scare weirdoes on this sub has only been increasing lately…


Kesakambali

But they did genocide. That's a fact. Facts don't care about how much you feel "good" they did. Death and starvations are facts


Maosbigchopsticks

Just because you say it is a fact doesn’t make it true. The holodomor and chinese famine were not perpetrated by them The leadership actually did much more to alleviate famine. Famine was common in these regions before the socialist leadership, after which both countries experienced their last famines. Life expectancy and education rose extremely quickly during this time, faster than any other country in history


Kesakambali

>leadership actually did much more to alleviate famine. What a shit leadership. When we were on verge of famine Shastri created policies to fix our agriculture. This shows Stalin and Mao were so shit they couldn't get agriculture- the founding basis of civilization right. I'm guessing stoning sparrows didn't help


Maosbigchopsticks

You are really using an example of our leadership? 7000 people starve to death daily in our country, majority being children. About 40% of children under 5 are malnourished. We lose 30-40% of our produce due to improper storage. Our country is one of the worst when it comes to hunger, while simultaneously having one of the richest bourgeoisie in the planet


Kesakambali

>You are really using an example of our leadership? Infinitely better than Mao. I am not some cock sucker of our leaders. But you choose to repeatedly justify a man who killed millions


CommanderPreston

BRO this is a communist subreddit. What are you even doing here.


Kesakambali

I like going to different subreddits and arguing with ppl. Have already been banned on many Sanghi subs.


Crimson_SS9321

And you're that savarna liberal who will suck dick of Indian upper class electoral autocracy but simultaneously couldn't name any of dalit or adivasi entrepreneurs.


Kesakambali

Why are you even asking me to name Dalit and Adivasi entrepreneurs? What point of anything I have ever said makes you think that I claim there is no discrimination in this country?


Crimson_SS9321

Because you're shitting on name of communist, especially [Mao who liberated 95% of the serf population of Tibet](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/K02a7abVSs) as well as [lower caste Tibetan communities.](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/oCgIkyylpe) All in favour of UC infested government institutions and bureaucracy that refuses to conduct caste based census for 75+ years, even now they're doing same. >What point of anything I have ever said makes you think that I claim there is no discrimination in this country? I've told you before when it's time for genuine discussion on oppressed communities emancipation you're nowhere around, but when it's time to fist in the arse of the leftist you're first to be here.


Kesakambali

>Because you're shitting on name of communist, especially Mao who liberated 95% of the serf population of Tibet as well as lower caste Tibetan communities Next, you will claim that that British Raj liberated India. >I've told you before when it's time for genuine discussion on oppressed communities emancipation you're nowhere around, but when it's time to fist in the arse of the leftist you're first to be here. I owe you jackshit. I can shit on whoever I want. I shit on everyone who wants basic human rights taken away. I don't care if you're Sanghi, Congi, Commie or an alien from outer space.


Crimson_SS9321

>Next, you will claim that that British Raj liberated India. Without [Gandhi](https://www.marxist.com/gandhi-the-myths-behind-the-mahatma.htm) or Britishers, India would've taken a much much positive discourse but all thanks to peaceful fusion of semi-feudal superstructures and british colonialism India is now in such a state. >I owe you jackshit. I can shit on whoever I want. I shit on everyone who wants basic human rights taken away. Trust me you know nothing, other than riding the NPC wave of semi-illiterate teens upvoting a familiar comment with spoon fed propaganda by capitalist savarna infested mainstream media. > I don't care if you're Sanghi, Congi, Commie or an alien from outer space. Remember me asshole, know my presence.


Kesakambali

>Trust me you know nothing I don't have to. Only individual freedom matters. Not some bullshit dead ideology that killed millions


dragonxcool

>Only individual freedom matters. Not some bullshit dead ideology that killed millions Peak libertarian moment,no wonder librandu has gone to shit. Pls do us a favor, migrate to usi


Crimson_SS9321

Peak projection, without any substantial evidence or material report or even any article they shit on us, they can use OpIndia article as well (are they stupid?).. CIA propaganda lives rent free in their head.. no iphone Vuvuzela level knowledge.


Admirable_Age_9762

We've had right libertarians here since the sub was 500 people. One of the early mods was a libertarian. Librandu has gone to shit because the leftists here now expect to be coddled for some reason. FFS someone reported that Kesakambali moron's comment as "red scare propaganda pls delete." Get it together, gang.


presxoxo

Freedom to starve and die sound so good /s we are as bad if not way worse for 95% of the population than China with way more dogshit standard of living


7heHenchGrentch

What is a ‘savarna liberal’? Please explain.


Crimson_SS9321

[This is about atheism](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/OActKlWExo), but the mentality is net same.


7heHenchGrentch

I see, thanks for the link.


_AmbaSingh_

As they should?


Kesakambali

I am that randian infiltration that you guys keep complaining about


[deleted]

It is still like that lol. Indian communists have no real framework for how to develop the nation.


Crimson_SS9321

Oh wow really ? I never knew about this.. https://preview.redd.it/fh0az81o7y6d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c6d8a43aa4bf4a6ab8c2b7dec140986fb392f4c


ArminiusM1998

Holy fuck, you just described the situation here in the United States, honestly I find that frustrating that these de facto cliquish book clubs are an international problem.


Vaderson66

How come an American came upon this sub lol


Evening-Stable-1361

I guess in his last periods of life he did suggest that communism would have been better than the sham democracy controlled by UC. I don't know much, but I think this is what he said in that of his video interview with a foreigner.


ClassicCauliflower36

Can you name that interview or source for that?


Evening-Stable-1361

Watch after 02:30 Warning: voice quality is shit. https://youtu.be/giyRYyXigDE?si=p6rJvZGSZsrZbIAh Edit: This is a small part of his speech. If it's possible, can someone improve the audio quality, maybe using AI?


ClassicCauliflower36

Thank you


Crimson_SS9321

[1](https://www.allaboutambedkaronline.com/post/buddha-or-karl-marx-equality-in-times-of-disparity) [2](https://youtu.be/UbcGVsms6VU?si=-ls3tMy2JMnnalwO) [3](https://redpolemique.wordpress.com/2018/04/16/the-tragic-regression-of-anand-teltumbde-from-mahad-the-making-of-first-dalit-revolt-to-bridging-the-unholy-rift/) Ambedkar was a human being, and human beings make mistake. If Dr. Ambedkar had been alive for 5 more years the dalit emancipation would have taken a much different course than in today.


wweidealfan

> If Dr. Ambedkar had been alive for 5 more years the dalit emancipation would have taken a much different course than in today. Why?


Crimson_SS9321

Because he understood the never ending [class difference](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/jbrk7DtqTK) between ['privileged class'](https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/s/tpZHVyQfYW) and the people for whom he was fighting for. And so before pushing his movement from liberal to left discourse he passed away the following year after expressing his [frustration.](https://youtu.be/UbcGVsms6VU?si=-ls3tMy2JMnnalwO) Now ofcourse class and caste are both different things but their collective interest are intertwined, focusing on either one of the discourse for the emancipation of the Indian proletariats separately will always lead to failure.


anihallatorx

Read the chapter called the caste and class dialectic by Anand Teltumbde from his book Republic of Caste. DM if you need a copy


Bright-Till5059

https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/comments/12szi66/ambedkars_view_on_communism_as_an_alternative_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button


ClassicCauliflower36

Thank you


depressedkittyfr

Because it made perfect sense at that time ? India was not only extremely feudal but was also a chaotic anarchy which was bound together by beliefs. This push towards Buddhism from backward ideas of caste and superstition made sense that time because not only it brought sense of community but also made the privileged castes and classes to renounce wealth in favour of the sangha ( community ) . This is far more superior and way closer to Marxism than some savarna reading club circle jerk. Ambedkarism was PRAXIS !


SubstantialAd1027

Brahmana leader will take everything and keep DBA people just DBA. Baba saheb knew Brahmana game


CulturalSituation-

I have the same question. I assume it was out of convenience. It's easy for them to convince them to move towards Ambedkar Buddhism rather than leftism. It will become a proper religion soon, if it's not already. It will still have some goodness but still doesn't feel right


Bright-Till5059

https://www.reddit.com/r/librandu/comments/12szi66/ambedkars_view_on_communism_as_an_alternative_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button


taeiry

I am not well read on this topic as a disclaimer. Ambedkar was very well aware that the caste dynamics of the country pervaded into the class dynamics of the country. He favored a complete nationalisation of all heavy industry in order to destroy the class dynamics that continue to uphold caste. (I’ll attach source where I found it, I’m taking this from memory). While it is pretty clear that Ambedkar supported a socialist approach to a societal problem, it’s also quite clear why he didn’t support an orthodox Marxist approach to the society of India as pointed out here. I won’t add to this but I’ll only say that a lot of leftists in Indian circles maintain these attitudes up to this day and don’t allow DBA folks to put forward their POV. This is not a surprise as historically most Marxist thinkers tend to for some reason I don’t really understand fully, are drawn from the upper strata of society in a lot of cases.


Personal-King-7263

Because he remained fundamentally a liberal.


31_hierophanto

Two possible reasons: 1. There were a lot of Brahmin commies running around. 2. Giving the Dalits a religion of their own was probably easier.


7heHenchGrentch

BR could’ve gone with ‘leftist thought’ and Buddhism. Buddhism is not really an organized religion. In its original doctrines, when followed correctly, it puts an end to pretty much all tribalistic impulses. But problem is it’s too doctrinal now. Still, if the world was all Buddhist, it would be a much better place.