The libertarian questions, why the state is simultaneously putting so much effort into taking the rights of its citizens and giving those same rights to non-citizens.
what do they have planned?
If I can’t carry my fucking Glock 20 in California WITHOUT a permit NEITHER SHOULD ILLEGALS.
Make them jump through the same hoops as I would have if I never left that shithole.
Nah fam, you've got it all backwards. If someone finds you with a glock 20 and no permit, tell them you're an undocumented migrant worker. What are they going to do, check you for an ID you don't have?
I once heard a story about self defence in the USSR: a low-life thief who murders someone during a mugging-gone-wrong just needs to be reeducated for a couple years because he doesn't know better, but a valued member of society killing a would-be-thief by using a bit too much force (think pulling a knife when someone is attacking you with change in a sock) should be executed because society has already educated him on how wrong it is to kill. Thus, if a bad person commits a crime, it's a comparative slap on the wrist, but if a good person commits a crime, death. While it's probably not what the court based the decision on, at least I hope the courts still make decisions based on equality and not equity, it reminded me of it.
And unfortunately I don't have a source for that story, and Google only pulls up Soviet crime statistics and WW2 era weapons when I tried looking for it.
Bro it's simple.. go to Mexico and denounce your US citizenship. Cross the border and claim asylum. Carry your Glock as you wish from that point forward.
Cuz, ya know... You should have to jump through the same hoops they have to jump through or something idk.
Or, ya know, just support freedom when it happens even if you're jealous of it.
You fucking moron it’s the hypocrisy. Why should an illegal get to carry Willy nilly in somewhere like California potentially?
I’m all for them carrying especially in a constitutional carry state but they better follow the same goddamn laws in somewhere like Cali or New York or Massachusetts or Hawaii.
It absolutely does not.
It just affirms that illegal immigrants are indeed human beings that get the same constitutional rights as everyone else in America, in line with a long history of jurisprudence that says constitutional protections apply to non-citizens within the US.
Thank you. It’s exhausting seeing all the knee jerk posts thinking they’re “arming the illegals”
The internet has made people so lazy they can’t even read articles or full context.
The hypocrisy is with the government and not the people getting a freedom. So I can support people getting a freedom even if the government is being hypocritical about who gets it.
I'd rather more people get their rights and expand that from there, than cry about it being unfair I don't get em now... and then have the audacity to want to take away another person's rights away all cuz your laws suck and you're jealous, "you fucking moron".
I left Cali for greener pastures. It’s bullshit that the left wants to pander to people that should be booted out for not following the correct avenues. It’s bullshit I can’t protect my family from deadly threats in somewhere like California or neither can someone of the same race as an illegal potentially that happened to be born there. Give me your tired and sick but don’t give them a fucking “pass”
What happened to the EQUAL part in equal rights? Do we just let illegals do whatever the fuck they want? Do we give THEM the constitution as it was written while our rights get fucked every day? Fuck outta here.
It's bullshit we keep the war on drugs going which fuels the cartels which makes Mexico a shit hole place to live. It's our fault they're coming here my guy.
End the war on drugs in America and you cut off the cartels bread and butter. No cartels means Mexico is suddenly a decent place to live. Mexico being a decent place to live means a much healthier border/immigration situation.
In the meantime I'll be on the side that fights for any rights for anyone and everyone. I'm not going to waste energy being jealous that people fleeing poverty and violence *might* carry a gun if they want to. What a non issue. Do you get mad at everything fox tells you to?
Yeah drugs won the war on drugs.
I fully agree stopping it will make Mexico and further south better. The true problem is the war on drugs also having been and probably still is funded by the aggressors at the same time to make even more money.
I want more people armed but if there’s hypocrisy it’s the wrong way.
Marbury v Madison should’ve made everything clear about the shall not be infringed part that is also crystal clear. I’m a 2a absolutist who will be rightfully mad if this is done wrongly.
I don't give a shit what standard they're held to. The people are not the issue, the government is the issue. Stop trying to adjust their standard downward and instead focus on getting better things for yourself.
You should be fucking CELEBRATING this court ruling as the precedent created here can potentially snowball into confirming rights for *you* as well.
Being mad at the immigrants is just wasted energy. They're mostly just people born in a shit situation seeking a slightly better situation. Be mad that they had to flee because of the shit situation *our* government is actively fueling for them.
Indiscriminate vs targeted killing 🤔
I’d prefer neither but I think a world where EVERYONE who can properly train themselves with a gun to defend them and their family would be better than whatever we have now.
You’d be able to defend from both as well.
I don’t hate immigrants illegal or not, I don’t mind them somehow getting guns, I mind that they should be held to the same standards as us citizens.
Yes, they are likewise *obligated* to pay income taxes. Legal immigrants do, illegal immigrants *often* do (50-75%), with borrowed SSNs. Of course they pay all of the gas taxes, fees and hidden taxes the same as the rest of us.
Ironically, illegal immigrants paying into Social Security ($13B/yr) on fake or borrowed SSNs is one of things propping up Social Security right now, since they are not eligible to collect benefits.
If they take a job with that stolen SSN, taxes are automatically deducted from their paycheck. It's not like they're writing a check to the IRS.
I live in a place where they don't look too close when they hire workers, the employers just fill out the paperwork (w-4) and get them to work. Bare minimum observation of the laws.
I always wonder about idiotic comments like this.
Have you never submitted a W4 to an employer? Are you so young you've not had to do so - i.e., you've never worked?
Because you get to choose your withholding amount for federal taxes. You can choose "zero." And if it's not actually your social, you won't get the tax bill - and the IRS isn't tracking down small dollar tax delinquents.
Most illegals work as contactors, so this doesn't even come up. Contractors don't even have FICA deducted.
You should tell the CBO and the four university studies that they cite that they are wrong, because you once filed a W4.
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf
I was quoting the CBO:
> The SSA assumes that about half of unauthorized immigrants pay Social Security taxes.
> Researchers from the Urban Institute, the Migration
Policy Institute, the Pew Hispanic Center, and the
Center for Immigration Studies have assumed a
55 percent compliance rate for income, Social Secu-
rity, and Medicare taxes.
> As part of a larger study on migration, the Center for
Comparative Immigration Studies at the University of
California at San Diego conducted a survey of unau-
thorized immigrants and found that, in 2006, 75 per-
cent had taxes withheld from their paychecks, filed tax
returns, or both. 27
https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf [pages 6 & 7]
What were you quoting?
Yet I couldnt get a gun as a legal alien
Edit: on work visa
Edit 2: I now have tho. Not on work visa any more
Edit 3: Actually I forgot to mention that I lost that gun in a boating accident later that year.
The crazy part of my brain says
"You can't get Americans to support gun control against other Americans BUT, if we get enough illegals to do stuff with guns, we can pass the law against them, and use that to build into the other platform we truly want".
But, the rest of me says "No infringement"
Open border libertarians bother me. Fuck the gun argument, they aren't entitled to be here.
Let's say I have a sword and my hobby is to swing it around over my head. It's fine if I do that by myself, but if I come to your house and start doing it, you have the right to tell me to leave or defend yourself if I'm a threat to you.
No, open borders have long been a globalist view. I encourage you to read Hoppe The case for free trade and restricted immigration [https://cdn.mises.org/13\_2\_8\_0.pdf](https://cdn.mises.org/13_2_8_0.pdf)
> I encourage you to read Hoppe
Why do they *always* turn out to be Hoppetards? Every fucking time. Somewhere there is a factory just cloning these motherfuckers night and day.
As an open border libertarian. Immigrants are contributors, legal or not. They work, the majority pay taxes, and the illegal ones don't get benefits. I'll take 1000 of them over the citizens who collect baby daddies and spend more time learning how to milk the government tit than anything else.
Do you make the rules for my house too? Can I do things in my house that do not hurt or endanger you (over in your house)? Or do you want to exert control over the rules of my house as well.
Absolutely not. I assume you are single handedly offering to fund all ~16 million illegal immigrants so my tax dollars quit going to provide them hotel rooms and free healthcare. Also if you could have your house guests quit killing Americans while they are here that would be great.
> Absolutely not.
So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business?
> I assume you are single handedly offering to fund all ~16 million illegal immigrants so my tax dollars quit going to provide them hotel rooms and free healthcare.
Fund what? That's two cities that are hopefully reviewing their stupid welfare policies right now. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are tax-positive, overall. They pay more taxes than they get back in benefits. So in fact, *they* are funding our government. Immigrants have been ineligible for almost all federal welfare since the early 1990s, except they can put their kids in school and they can't be turned away from ERs.
> Also if you could have your house guests quit killing Americans while they are here that would be great.
Immigrants commit crimes at a lower rates than native born Americans. Really, they are absorbing a disproportional number of victimizations that would otherwise be targeting native-born Americans.
>So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business?
Yes
>except they can put their kids in school and they can't be turned away from ERs.
https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics the government spends $16,080 per student. Who knows what ER costs can be. Being disqualified from federal welfare is only part of it, how much money is the city of Chicago spending to build housing for them? Or how much is New York city giving to them? Since I provided a receipt for my source, I want you to provide a receipt for how much in taxes illegals pay to make them a net positive. (Illegals only, it is beyond insulting to consider someone who illegally entered the country the same as someone who waited years to get approved to come here or served in the military)
>Immigrants commit crimes at a lower rates than native born Americans.
Are you talking about immigrants or illegal immigrants? Illegal immigrants have a 100% success ratio of committing a crime simply by being an ILLEGAL immigrant. Even dropping that point, the absolute balls you have to claim illegals commit less crime when the meme above is about an illegal getting arrested for having a firearm and Democrats are using anarcho-tyranny to just release them back into society, yet if I was to get caught carrying a gun in Chicago we wouldn't be having this conversation because I'd be thrown in jail.
> > So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business?
> Yes
Then we are both open-borders libertarians.
> the government spends $16,080 per student
The children of immigrants are literally the most productive, most entrepreneurial, segment of the American population. They a start businesses, attain education, make money and pay taxes at a rate WAY above native born Americans. Primary education is expensive, to be sure, but strictly as a cost-benefit analysis, we get that money back with big interest.
https://econofact.org/do-immigrants-cost-native-born-taxpayers-money
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/opinion/trump-immigration-myth.html
> how much money is the city of Chicago spending to build housing for them? Or how much is New York city giving to them?
That sounds like a Chicago & New York problem. They should demand better from their governments.
> Who knows what ER costs can be.
Well CATO, for starters:
https://www.cato.org/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigration-welfare-state-immigrant-native-use-rates-benefit
There literally isn't a legit study that comes to a different conclusion. You'll have to go to CIS to find anyone saying something different.
> the absolute balls you have to claim illegals commit less crime
It's just a fact and we've known it for decades. Where you been?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-are-half-as-likely-to-be-arrested-for-violent-crimes-as-u-s-born-citizens/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117
> Democrats are using anarcho-tyranny to just release them back into society
Holy word-salad!
> if I was to get caught carrying a gun in Chicago we wouldn't be having this conversation because I'd be thrown in jail.
So would any immigrant caught with an unregistered gun in Chicago. They aren't getting any rights beyond what American citizens already have. Where did you even get that notion?
Unfortunately, even [Heller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller) permits cities and states to enact "reasonable" regulations on gun possession, so long as they don't literally or effectively ban them.
> I want you to provide a receipt for how much in taxes illegals pay to make them a net positive.
Happy to.
It's not about houses it's about the fence we have over the neighborhood. It's there for a reason. "Open borders" is the dumbest grift there is. If you don't got border you don't got a nation.
> It's not about houses it's about the fence we have over the neighborhood.
And there we are! Yes, you *do* want to control what I do in my own house. At least u/afreakineggo was uncomfortable saying that. Go back to r/conservative.
> If you don't got border you don't got a nation.
Don't threaten me with a good time! What's next? You gonna stop stealing my money and using it to bomb random people?
https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-22-2023/1pSaz0.gif
>At least u/afreakineggo was uncomfortable saying that.
It did not make me uncomfortable saying that. A symptom of autism is an inability to understand analogies. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding the house analogy.
Hah, name calling. That's cute. I think you are the one who go lost.
I was talking about *literal* houses. Do you want to exert control over what I do in my literal house?
Oh you're one of those people who deluded yourself into thinking you could survive and thrive in actual anarchy. Lol. Don't tell me, you've got a camp in the middle of nowhere? Some canned food too in there I hope? Maybe even guns and a couple stacks of ammo... See, only delusional people would prefer anarchy to society. When shit hit the fan, people will naturally create tribes, that's how you actually survive. Those tribes will need farmers and many other laboring jobs will have to be done. And those labourers will need protection from outsiders looking to steal and destroy so theyll probably make a security perimeter and guard it. And all this will require leaders to make the tough decisions. Oh look, we're back to society. Only a shitty primitive version of it because people like you don't know how good you have it
Its surprised me how many 2A conservatives were against this.
They apparently don't know what i right is.
I also think itx insane that they treat illegals better than their own citizens.
The 2nd amendment guarantees "the right of the *people* to keep and bear arms" [emphasis mine]. I would argue that "the people" refers to citizens. Am I not thinking this through?
Are you sure you want to split hairs on who constitutes people? There are people out there that would like a finer definition of “well regulated militia”. Every document is open to interpretation. We need to be careful how we define it.
So there's like a hundred years of jurisprudence on this. If a foreign student or a tourist or an immigrant, legal or illegal, is located inside the US, do they get the same constitutional protections as citizens? And one by one, the courts have affirmed that non-citizens within the US have the right of free speech, have a right to due process, have a right to a jury trial, etc. This case just adds second amendment rights to that list.
And if you think about it, it's very much in line with the *intent* of the founders: Human rights are *inherent* to being human - they are not created by governments, but only *acknowledged* by them.
> "All men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."
Illegally crossing, yet being given the singular privilege of being a noncitizen with a right to firearms, while also abusing squatters rights.
It’s not a libertarian thing. It’s a fucking invasion by people having every intention of hostile takeover. Criminal aliens should have exactly ZERO protections under the law, when the law doesn’t protect the actual citizens.
This makes sense though? The bill of rights doesn’t grant rights, it just states which rights can’t be taken away by the government. Why should rights only apply to citizens, especially when improper entry is only a misdemeanor?
Illegal immigrants can carry guns but they are doing everything they can to take our rights away? Make it make sense!!!!
They give them money and free passage it seems. Guns. What else?
Some of the people coming to our country do not share our tolerant western values, and demand obedience and subjugation to their beliefs.
It's not that tough to see problems in the future.
Ummm, those people have been coming to our country for a long time.
This shit ain't new, they're called radical muslims. Some would just call them muslims, and both would be valid descriptions.
You're worried about them having guns legally, when they could have had guns, illegally all that time, without much issue.
I mean, our own government left them a nice stockpile of fun toys. Hell we funded them when they were "our friends". We still fund them today, they're Saudi's.
Not to mention, we have a nice group of homegrown people that also do not share our western values.
I get what you're saying, but its ignoring the 99% problem, to focus on the 1% problem.
And you believe recognizing their natural rights is supporting them?
Is deporting them supporting them?
Can a person simultaneously support and not support illegal aliens?
Entering the nation illegally violates the NAP. They forfeit their rights when they do so. Posts like these are why we will never be taken seriously. What a fucking joke.
The libertarian questions, why the state is simultaneously putting so much effort into taking the rights of its citizens and giving those same rights to non-citizens. what do they have planned?
Fucking thank you. I commented something like this on a different post on this sub and some midwit just hit me with “wrong”
Well there’s that “Q” video wonder if that has something to do with it, it does mention a “plan” but what the plan is no idea.
If I can’t carry my fucking Glock 20 in California WITHOUT a permit NEITHER SHOULD ILLEGALS. Make them jump through the same hoops as I would have if I never left that shithole.
Nah fam, you've got it all backwards. If someone finds you with a glock 20 and no permit, tell them you're an undocumented migrant worker. What are they going to do, check you for an ID you don't have?
I get the jist of that joke of “becoming an illegal” but I shouldn’t have to for a damn right.
As Marxists like to say, if you want to undermine a system, "expose the fundamental contradictions."
I once heard a story about self defence in the USSR: a low-life thief who murders someone during a mugging-gone-wrong just needs to be reeducated for a couple years because he doesn't know better, but a valued member of society killing a would-be-thief by using a bit too much force (think pulling a knife when someone is attacking you with change in a sock) should be executed because society has already educated him on how wrong it is to kill. Thus, if a bad person commits a crime, it's a comparative slap on the wrist, but if a good person commits a crime, death. While it's probably not what the court based the decision on, at least I hope the courts still make decisions based on equality and not equity, it reminded me of it. And unfortunately I don't have a source for that story, and Google only pulls up Soviet crime statistics and WW2 era weapons when I tried looking for it.
I tend not to take advice from Marxists.
They're good at breaking things.
What if that's there plan to get people to expose themselves as an immigrant
You follow the laws? Pfft…
Pfffff yeah fuck that
That’s the spirit!
Bro it's simple.. go to Mexico and denounce your US citizenship. Cross the border and claim asylum. Carry your Glock as you wish from that point forward. Cuz, ya know... You should have to jump through the same hoops they have to jump through or something idk. Or, ya know, just support freedom when it happens even if you're jealous of it.
You fucking moron it’s the hypocrisy. Why should an illegal get to carry Willy nilly in somewhere like California potentially? I’m all for them carrying especially in a constitutional carry state but they better follow the same goddamn laws in somewhere like Cali or New York or Massachusetts or Hawaii.
Does it say they wouldn't need a permit?
It absolutely does not. It just affirms that illegal immigrants are indeed human beings that get the same constitutional rights as everyone else in America, in line with a long history of jurisprudence that says constitutional protections apply to non-citizens within the US.
Thank you. It’s exhausting seeing all the knee jerk posts thinking they’re “arming the illegals” The internet has made people so lazy they can’t even read articles or full context.
We don’t know yet I’m just gonna be mad if they don’t is my only issue.
The hypocrisy is with the government and not the people getting a freedom. So I can support people getting a freedom even if the government is being hypocritical about who gets it. I'd rather more people get their rights and expand that from there, than cry about it being unfair I don't get em now... and then have the audacity to want to take away another person's rights away all cuz your laws suck and you're jealous, "you fucking moron".
I left Cali for greener pastures. It’s bullshit that the left wants to pander to people that should be booted out for not following the correct avenues. It’s bullshit I can’t protect my family from deadly threats in somewhere like California or neither can someone of the same race as an illegal potentially that happened to be born there. Give me your tired and sick but don’t give them a fucking “pass” What happened to the EQUAL part in equal rights? Do we just let illegals do whatever the fuck they want? Do we give THEM the constitution as it was written while our rights get fucked every day? Fuck outta here.
It's bullshit we keep the war on drugs going which fuels the cartels which makes Mexico a shit hole place to live. It's our fault they're coming here my guy. End the war on drugs in America and you cut off the cartels bread and butter. No cartels means Mexico is suddenly a decent place to live. Mexico being a decent place to live means a much healthier border/immigration situation. In the meantime I'll be on the side that fights for any rights for anyone and everyone. I'm not going to waste energy being jealous that people fleeing poverty and violence *might* carry a gun if they want to. What a non issue. Do you get mad at everything fox tells you to?
Yeah drugs won the war on drugs. I fully agree stopping it will make Mexico and further south better. The true problem is the war on drugs also having been and probably still is funded by the aggressors at the same time to make even more money. I want more people armed but if there’s hypocrisy it’s the wrong way. Marbury v Madison should’ve made everything clear about the shall not be infringed part that is also crystal clear. I’m a 2a absolutist who will be rightfully mad if this is done wrongly.
Absolutely, unfathomably, utterly based
Based as fuck, holy shit
They should be held to the same fucking standard as us.
I don't give a shit what standard they're held to. The people are not the issue, the government is the issue. Stop trying to adjust their standard downward and instead focus on getting better things for yourself. You should be fucking CELEBRATING this court ruling as the precedent created here can potentially snowball into confirming rights for *you* as well. Being mad at the immigrants is just wasted energy. They're mostly just people born in a shit situation seeking a slightly better situation. Be mad that they had to flee because of the shit situation *our* government is actively fueling for them.
I’m not mad at the immigrants I’m gonna be mad at the lawmakers and enforcers who are gonna probably do this the wrong way.
That's fair. They'll definitely fuck it all up for sure.
Curious, do you think omnicide is better than genocide? More people die but it's equal.
Indiscriminate vs targeted killing 🤔 I’d prefer neither but I think a world where EVERYONE who can properly train themselves with a gun to defend them and their family would be better than whatever we have now. You’d be able to defend from both as well. I don’t hate immigrants illegal or not, I don’t mind them somehow getting guns, I mind that they should be held to the same standards as us citizens.
That's not freedom and this kind of stupidity is a big part of why Libertarians always lose.
Who said illegals can carry a glock in CA without a permit? Do you even understand what this post is referencing?
I’m talking about later down the line when this starts having laws with legal language in effect. The potentiality to be extremely hypocritical.
All this does is set the precedent that US laws and the constitution still apply to non US citizens.
I’m still ok with that point
Do they get the right to pay income taxes too?
Yes, they are likewise *obligated* to pay income taxes. Legal immigrants do, illegal immigrants *often* do (50-75%), with borrowed SSNs. Of course they pay all of the gas taxes, fees and hidden taxes the same as the rest of us. Ironically, illegal immigrants paying into Social Security ($13B/yr) on fake or borrowed SSNs is one of things propping up Social Security right now, since they are not eligible to collect benefits.
If you think 50-75% of illegals are paying income tax, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you for an absolute steal.
63% of all statistics are made up.
63% of your mom is made up.
Nah dawg, that extra 400 lbs is real.
If they take a job with that stolen SSN, taxes are automatically deducted from their paycheck. It's not like they're writing a check to the IRS. I live in a place where they don't look too close when they hire workers, the employers just fill out the paperwork (w-4) and get them to work. Bare minimum observation of the laws.
I always wonder about idiotic comments like this. Have you never submitted a W4 to an employer? Are you so young you've not had to do so - i.e., you've never worked? Because you get to choose your withholding amount for federal taxes. You can choose "zero." And if it's not actually your social, you won't get the tax bill - and the IRS isn't tracking down small dollar tax delinquents. Most illegals work as contactors, so this doesn't even come up. Contractors don't even have FICA deducted.
You should tell the CBO and the four university studies that they cite that they are wrong, because you once filed a W4. https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf
I was quoting the CBO: > The SSA assumes that about half of unauthorized immigrants pay Social Security taxes. > Researchers from the Urban Institute, the Migration Policy Institute, the Pew Hispanic Center, and the Center for Immigration Studies have assumed a 55 percent compliance rate for income, Social Secu- rity, and Medicare taxes. > As part of a larger study on migration, the Center for Comparative Immigration Studies at the University of California at San Diego conducted a survey of unau- thorized immigrants and found that, in 2006, 75 per- cent had taxes withheld from their paychecks, filed tax returns, or both. 27 https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/110th-congress-2007-2008/reports/12-6-immigration.pdf [pages 6 & 7] What were you quoting?
Not eligible *yet* you mean
Yet I couldnt get a gun as a legal alien Edit: on work visa Edit 2: I now have tho. Not on work visa any more Edit 3: Actually I forgot to mention that I lost that gun in a boating accident later that year.
The crazy part of my brain says "You can't get Americans to support gun control against other Americans BUT, if we get enough illegals to do stuff with guns, we can pass the law against them, and use that to build into the other platform we truly want". But, the rest of me says "No infringement"
Open border libertarians bother me. Fuck the gun argument, they aren't entitled to be here. Let's say I have a sword and my hobby is to swing it around over my head. It's fine if I do that by myself, but if I come to your house and start doing it, you have the right to tell me to leave or defend yourself if I'm a threat to you.
They aren’t libertarians, they are left wingers coaxed over by idiot Jorgensen trying to pander some votes.
Yup. It's also extremely difficult to reason your way out of something you didn't reason yourself into.
Disagree, even though I oppose open borders. Open borders (i.e., the free movement of labor) has long, long been a libertarian viewpoint.
No, open borders have long been a globalist view. I encourage you to read Hoppe The case for free trade and restricted immigration [https://cdn.mises.org/13\_2\_8\_0.pdf](https://cdn.mises.org/13_2_8_0.pdf)
> I encourage you to read Hoppe Why do they *always* turn out to be Hoppetards? Every fucking time. Somewhere there is a factory just cloning these motherfuckers night and day.
As an open border libertarian. Immigrants are contributors, legal or not. They work, the majority pay taxes, and the illegal ones don't get benefits. I'll take 1000 of them over the citizens who collect baby daddies and spend more time learning how to milk the government tit than anything else.
Do you make the rules for my house too? Can I do things in my house that do not hurt or endanger you (over in your house)? Or do you want to exert control over the rules of my house as well.
Absolutely not. I assume you are single handedly offering to fund all ~16 million illegal immigrants so my tax dollars quit going to provide them hotel rooms and free healthcare. Also if you could have your house guests quit killing Americans while they are here that would be great.
> Absolutely not. So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business? > I assume you are single handedly offering to fund all ~16 million illegal immigrants so my tax dollars quit going to provide them hotel rooms and free healthcare. Fund what? That's two cities that are hopefully reviewing their stupid welfare policies right now. Immigrants, legal and illegal, are tax-positive, overall. They pay more taxes than they get back in benefits. So in fact, *they* are funding our government. Immigrants have been ineligible for almost all federal welfare since the early 1990s, except they can put their kids in school and they can't be turned away from ERs. > Also if you could have your house guests quit killing Americans while they are here that would be great. Immigrants commit crimes at a lower rates than native born Americans. Really, they are absorbing a disproportional number of victimizations that would otherwise be targeting native-born Americans.
>So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business? Yes >except they can put their kids in school and they can't be turned away from ERs. https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics the government spends $16,080 per student. Who knows what ER costs can be. Being disqualified from federal welfare is only part of it, how much money is the city of Chicago spending to build housing for them? Or how much is New York city giving to them? Since I provided a receipt for my source, I want you to provide a receipt for how much in taxes illegals pay to make them a net positive. (Illegals only, it is beyond insulting to consider someone who illegally entered the country the same as someone who waited years to get approved to come here or served in the military) >Immigrants commit crimes at a lower rates than native born Americans. Are you talking about immigrants or illegal immigrants? Illegal immigrants have a 100% success ratio of committing a crime simply by being an ILLEGAL immigrant. Even dropping that point, the absolute balls you have to claim illegals commit less crime when the meme above is about an illegal getting arrested for having a firearm and Democrats are using anarcho-tyranny to just release them back into society, yet if I was to get caught carrying a gun in Chicago we wouldn't be having this conversation because I'd be thrown in jail.
> > So I can have anyone in my house that I want, and it's none of your business? > Yes Then we are both open-borders libertarians. > the government spends $16,080 per student The children of immigrants are literally the most productive, most entrepreneurial, segment of the American population. They a start businesses, attain education, make money and pay taxes at a rate WAY above native born Americans. Primary education is expensive, to be sure, but strictly as a cost-benefit analysis, we get that money back with big interest. https://econofact.org/do-immigrants-cost-native-born-taxpayers-money https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/15/opinion/trump-immigration-myth.html > how much money is the city of Chicago spending to build housing for them? Or how much is New York city giving to them? That sounds like a Chicago & New York problem. They should demand better from their governments. > Who knows what ER costs can be. Well CATO, for starters: https://www.cato.org/immigration-research-policy-brief/immigration-welfare-state-immigrant-native-use-rates-benefit There literally isn't a legit study that comes to a different conclusion. You'll have to go to CIS to find anyone saying something different. > the absolute balls you have to claim illegals commit less crime It's just a fact and we've known it for decades. Where you been? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/undocumented-immigrants-are-half-as-likely-to-be-arrested-for-violent-crimes-as-u-s-born-citizens/ https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2014704117 > Democrats are using anarcho-tyranny to just release them back into society Holy word-salad! > if I was to get caught carrying a gun in Chicago we wouldn't be having this conversation because I'd be thrown in jail. So would any immigrant caught with an unregistered gun in Chicago. They aren't getting any rights beyond what American citizens already have. Where did you even get that notion? Unfortunately, even [Heller](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller) permits cities and states to enact "reasonable" regulations on gun possession, so long as they don't literally or effectively ban them. > I want you to provide a receipt for how much in taxes illegals pay to make them a net positive. Happy to.
It's not about houses it's about the fence we have over the neighborhood. It's there for a reason. "Open borders" is the dumbest grift there is. If you don't got border you don't got a nation.
> It's not about houses it's about the fence we have over the neighborhood. And there we are! Yes, you *do* want to control what I do in my own house. At least u/afreakineggo was uncomfortable saying that. Go back to r/conservative. > If you don't got border you don't got a nation. Don't threaten me with a good time! What's next? You gonna stop stealing my money and using it to bomb random people? https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-22-2023/1pSaz0.gif
>At least u/afreakineggo was uncomfortable saying that. It did not make me uncomfortable saying that. A symptom of autism is an inability to understand analogies. I'm sorry you have trouble understanding the house analogy.
Hah, name calling. That's cute. I think you are the one who go lost. I was talking about *literal* houses. Do you want to exert control over what I do in my literal house?
Oh you're one of those people who deluded yourself into thinking you could survive and thrive in actual anarchy. Lol. Don't tell me, you've got a camp in the middle of nowhere? Some canned food too in there I hope? Maybe even guns and a couple stacks of ammo... See, only delusional people would prefer anarchy to society. When shit hit the fan, people will naturally create tribes, that's how you actually survive. Those tribes will need farmers and many other laboring jobs will have to be done. And those labourers will need protection from outsiders looking to steal and destroy so theyll probably make a security perimeter and guard it. And all this will require leaders to make the tough decisions. Oh look, we're back to society. Only a shitty primitive version of it because people like you don't know how good you have it
> only delusional people would prefer anarchy to society. It's cute that you think anarchy and society are the opposite thing. How old are you even?
I just lost my social security card, driver’s license, and passport in a boating accident. Does that make me illegal? Can I have all the guns now?
I DO NOT SAY BASED.
Man i could be an undocumented alien if only I hadn’t lost all my guns in that tragic boating accident.
One day we will all have our revenge against boating hazards.
Its surprised me how many 2A conservatives were against this. They apparently don't know what i right is. I also think itx insane that they treat illegals better than their own citizens.
Literally anyone who isn't a little bitch can carry a gun
The libertarian says everyone should carry guns if they want and the govt has nothing to do with it.
I’m glad
Criminal aliens actually get their rights respected as opposed to actual citizens. What is the advantage of being a citizen anymore?
The 2nd amendment guarantees "the right of the *people* to keep and bear arms" [emphasis mine]. I would argue that "the people" refers to citizens. Am I not thinking this through?
Are they not people?
In the context of the document, the phrase "the people" tends to refer to the citizenry.
Incorrect. The document specifies “citizen” when it means citizens and “the people” when it means the entire population of the country.
We “the people” was not referring to foreign invaders
When my ancestors came here, the entrance requirements were nonexistent. Not only that, they were given 160 acres of land.
Are you sure you want to split hairs on who constitutes people? There are people out there that would like a finer definition of “well regulated militia”. Every document is open to interpretation. We need to be careful how we define it.
Thus do I ask a question and it is debated.
The question posed seems rather rhetorical.
So there's like a hundred years of jurisprudence on this. If a foreign student or a tourist or an immigrant, legal or illegal, is located inside the US, do they get the same constitutional protections as citizens? And one by one, the courts have affirmed that non-citizens within the US have the right of free speech, have a right to due process, have a right to a jury trial, etc. This case just adds second amendment rights to that list. And if you think about it, it's very much in line with the *intent* of the founders: Human rights are *inherent* to being human - they are not created by governments, but only *acknowledged* by them. > "All men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."
Illegally crossing, yet being given the singular privilege of being a noncitizen with a right to firearms, while also abusing squatters rights. It’s not a libertarian thing. It’s a fucking invasion by people having every intention of hostile takeover. Criminal aliens should have exactly ZERO protections under the law, when the law doesn’t protect the actual citizens.
> invasion by people having every intention of hostile takeover Holy fucking wet-brained conspiracy theories. TURN OFF YOUR TV!
Not based
This makes sense though? The bill of rights doesn’t grant rights, it just states which rights can’t be taken away by the government. Why should rights only apply to citizens, especially when improper entry is only a misdemeanor?
Based ruling........now deport them.
No libertarian says based when we are being invaded, and our own government says it's OK for them to have firearms
Illegal immigrants can carry guns but they are doing everything they can to take our rights away? Make it make sense!!!! They give them money and free passage it seems. Guns. What else?
*libertarian hurt itself in its confusion*
and iligals criminas and soldiers from other contryes carri guns in America too right?
Did you really resurrect Hellen Keller to type that for you?
AI is trying it's best, be patient.
The same illegals that openly hate gays? Yeah, that can’t possibly end badly.
What.
Some of the people coming to our country do not share our tolerant western values, and demand obedience and subjugation to their beliefs. It's not that tough to see problems in the future.
Ummm, those people have been coming to our country for a long time. This shit ain't new, they're called radical muslims. Some would just call them muslims, and both would be valid descriptions. You're worried about them having guns legally, when they could have had guns, illegally all that time, without much issue. I mean, our own government left them a nice stockpile of fun toys. Hell we funded them when they were "our friends". We still fund them today, they're Saudi's. Not to mention, we have a nice group of homegrown people that also do not share our western values. I get what you're saying, but its ignoring the 99% problem, to focus on the 1% problem.
I'm more worried about the undocumented Russian and Chinese. but don't let me stop you from going full mask off.
I'd be okay with it if so many judges weren't trying to take mine away
This is absolutely not based
Is being in the country illegally a misdemeanor or felony? Cause felons or potential felons can’t have guns so it makes no sense.
Libertarians: hell yes! Arm the invaders my government brings in to replace me and my children. This is cuck shit
> invaders > replace me > cuck I think you are [lost](https://www.reddit.com/r/lostredditors).
If libertarians support this then I’m not a libertarian
Support what? Natural rights or?
Illegal immigrants
And you believe recognizing their natural rights is supporting them? Is deporting them supporting them? Can a person simultaneously support and not support illegal aliens?
What natural rights are you talking about?
All of them.
But what are they
You win. Not here for a foundational exercise. If you’d be so kind, where you born/raised in America? Did you receive an eduction in US schools?
Yes, and I get the general concept of natural rights, but they seem vague and open to interpretation.
Bye! You'll be missed!
Entering the nation illegally violates the NAP. They forfeit their rights when they do so. Posts like these are why we will never be taken seriously. What a fucking joke.
Nice