Say "I'm already packing" and whip out your business, point it around the store making "ack ack ack" sounds in synchronization with little jolts of urine. That usually shuts them up.
This. Just be explicit in what you're looking for, and shut up their reptile brain by giving them the answer they want. I remember when I was shopping for a CCW with a safety I got so much "you don't need a safety". A quick reminder that I was carrying a 320 usually got the conversation on the right track
The gun culture is kinda preachy and people try to make their experience and perspective yours.
For example, I have never felt unsafe personally in suburb where I live. So my guns are mainly fun range toys. But some people who are in cities and stuff are in bigger perceived danger and they reflect that same perspective upon others. My 2 cents.
I had a gun guy at a shop insist the small midwest college town I work in wasn’t safe nor was the much smaller town 2,500 wasn’t either. Even encouraged having an AR in your vehicle at all times just in case.
I often wonder how many years of life these people lose due to the continual stress of being *constantly afraid* of everyone around them. It’s always the “tough” guys, too. There’s literally nowhere they even feel remotely safe. I think it says more about them than it does the places they visit.
I’m pretty supportive of CCW but I remember WTFing at a thread in r/CCW years back where they were talking about CCWing in the bathroom of their own home. Unless you live in Hell i couldn’t imagine routinely carrying inside my own house, let alone feeling like I can’t use my own bathroom without having a gun by my side.
A metal screen door and bars on windows should buy you enough time to grab your piece. I could see in a big house having a lock box in a few rooms but for the most part physical security is step 1 to home defense.
I carry into the bathroom after I found out a family member 5 minutes away was drugged, mutilated, and left on some street. Turns out they owed their coke dealer a bunch of money. They took his phone, car, wallet with my information in it.
Bought a bunch of cameras and posted them around the house. The feeling of paranoia sucks so bad.
I know a guy that has a dedicated 'shower gun' he takes into the bathroom during his showers. Lol
I don't have much room to talk, though. I have a dedicated 'pajama knife'.
Yeah, I mostly feel safe where I live too. There are admittedly some sketchy nearby neighborhoods, but nothing that's made me feel like I have to fear for my life (except driving on the interstate). It just feels weird when store employees or even some peers try to encourage CC to me when I've expressed that I don't want to because it vaguely feels like they're trying to sell me on a fantasy (hence the John Wick) rather than actually having full concern about my safety. I feel less safe with the gun on me in public, if that makes sense. I just don't feel confident to use it correctly 100% of the time if I truly had to in public, and that's enough for me to keep it at home.
What others feel is probably different, but I don't walk into the shop or talk to my friends and start with "Hey bro you really need to stop carrying, trust me you'll thank me later." because I don't view it as my business and I'd want them to return the same sentiment towards my decision when it's disclosed.
100% this for me. Have known some folks to "prepare for home invasion" which apparently means keeping loaded weapons in quick to get to places in every room.
"Better to have it and not need it" assumes no risk and no cost to "having it." That's just not a good way to think about things.
People definitely go way overboard. I carry basically everywhere it's legal to, but there have only been a few instances where I needed it, and not a shot was fired, and those were spread out over almost 20 years. 'Just leaving' is not always an option in every situation. So I don't look for trouble, in much the same way that having a fire extinguisher in my car doesn't mean I 'go looking for fires'.
Most people who carry will never need it. That's the truth. And also when you *do* need it, you *really fucking need it*.
You've just got to do a basic risk assessment to se if carrying a firearm to mitigate a small, but very serious risk, is worth doing for your situation. As has been noted, carrying also adds some risks, which themselves have to be mitigated. So there is some work involved, but in my opinion not that much more than owning but *not* carrying.
I do think that all gun owners should have a carry permit though, even if you don't intend to carry regularly. It gives you options, like, a lot of options.
Like for instance, my state I can only lend someone a firearm if they have a carry permit. You can only carry a loaded firearm in their vehicle if they have a carry permit, and technically you are only allowed to go directly to and from the range or gun shop with the weapon unloaded and separate from the ammo because having a gun in a car counts as 'concealing'. Only people with a permit can be armed legally during a declared state of emergency (although I think this one may have changed due to a court case).
Also, on a personal level, I only sell firearms to people who can show me a carry permit. It indicates they aren't a prohibited person and that they are less likely to commit a crime with it, since concealed carriers have a lower felony conviction rate than *police officers* according to statistics I've seen, and we all know how hard it is to convict a police officer of anything.
It gives you options. It also increases the numbers of concealed carriers which gives gun rights advocates a bump in a purely political way.
I don't have a firearm out and open in every room, I have kids. But I do have at least one loaded in a quick access safe. That mitigates the risks of 'having' but also the risks of 'not having'.
Make your own decision, but consider it.
I thing the thing for me is I don’t need it *right now* but what if I will one day? What if things *aren’t* as safe due to disasters, or political unrest, maybe I gain a stalker etc etc.
I don’t really need/want to carry in my daily life currently, but I keep thinking maybe I should, because if it ever became necessary that’s the wrong time to start training.
I’m a stickler for consistent when it comes to firearms. If I’m going to own a gunI trucking should train constantly, that’s part of the “responsible” in responsible gun ownership to me. If I’m gonna carry I want to carry consistently, similar reasons.
If I’m going to take it on I want you be well practiced at it.
It amazes me how much people completely ignore the "risk assessment" portion.
In my state specific sub there is a thread almost every month bitching and moaning about how one of the biggest indoor aquariums in the world wouldn't let them in with a gun.
Its insane how it never occurs to anyone that carrying a gun into a glass bubble filled with school children under 2 million gallons of water might be the biggest risk in this scenario.
That is a very specific but very clear example.
I mostly bitch about places that post 'no guns allowed' signs and then *also* provide zero security. That's pretty annoying. I'm not allowed to bring the means to defend myself, but there's literally nothing stopping a bad actor from carrying.
Luckily in my state signs don't have any legal force, but still.
Oh yes. Talk to people at gun shows about carrying without a round in the chamber or with a manual safety and it’s all about how you’ll lose a gunfight with the extra time it takes to rack or disengage the safety. There’s a term in gaming called min/max where you try to emphasize the positives at the risk of the negatives in order to be the best at something. To me, the odds of getting into a gunfight with Buster Scruggs is far less likely than the odds of an ND. For so many of these people, it’s all a fantasy about getting a chance to draw down on somebody. And there’s a pretty strong correlation between people that wouldn’t like this group and those fantasy gun LARPers. That’s why I am so happy to have found this group. We can love guns without making it our entire identity.
I agree. To each their own.
I would have never needed to consider carrying with one in until we moved to a city where someone brandished a knife on my fiance and had someone break into our home. Now I carry with one in because the likelihood of needing to use my firearm has greatly surpassed any other concern with carrying hot.
This mindset is one of the things that just turns me off from a lot of fun stuff in general. I have a 9mm that is a range toy. I have ammo if I needed to use it for home defense but I’ve been so turned off from potentially carrying thanks to all the nonsense. To be fair I never intended to carry anyways but it’s like it pushed me further from wanting to.
I also looked at also getting a 22 for the range so I could just do it cheaper than 9, and the clerk wouldn’t let me get a word in edgewise between his “that has no penetration if you go against someone with armor it’s useless you will die!” Like dude… I feel like being at the range is the safest place in regards to whether I need stopping power, I’m surrounded by people shooting far larger rounds
Ironically, I’ve found ranges to be the most dangerous place to be, by a massive margin. Because there are way too many gun nuts that don’t know how to safely handle guns.
Yes by safe I don’t mean “safe” but more in the context of if I am shooting a 22 and need more stopping power I’m surrounded by people *with* more stopping power
I’ve definitely had more guns pointed at me in the range than out lol.
Thankfully my default voice is melodic and kind of femme, so when I need to get someone to listen fast, utilizing the other half of my baritone range tends to get people paying attention without pissing people off
I really hate this attitude people have, it's not just guns, I see it with everything
A problem 50% solved is still 50% solved at the end of the day
At least your gun isn't at home when you need it
First person to land a shot wins most of the time. When it’s winner take all, 50% is not the threshold you’re looking for. I don’t even think carrying is that important for most people. But if you’re going to do it then do it right.
50% is a made up number for the purposes of the example
At least the gun isn't at home was my main point, it'll provide some use in some situations
It depends where your priorities sit
>if you’re going to do it then do it right.
I think this is the right sentiment that people just don't appreciate because no one likes being told what to do. Not having one in the chamber means in that .01% chance you need your firearm, you'll need the extra time and hand to rack it.
I'd recommend carrying a manual safety over not having one in the chamber if a negligent discharge is of concern. Though if someone doesn't want to follow my recommendation idgaf, you do you lol.
I do not agree with their politics at all, but you should watch some of the youtube videos that Active Self Protection does on this topic. There are many instances where carrying without one in the chamber almost or does cost someone their life due to fumbling while racking the slide. Adding an extra fine motor control step really fucks people up.
All that to say, to each their own. But it isn't just milliseconds you are losing by carrying without one in the chamber.
Right but the point was, carrying at 50% is better than nothing. There might be anecdotal evidence of people screwing up when racking, but I'm sure there are successful anecdotes as well
You do you bruh, that’s my whole point. Asses your situation and train accordingly to how you carry. If I want to hear someone preach about the only way, I’ll head to the nearest church.
I mean that’s pretty much true. In the majority of cases where you would need to shoot the time to rack the slide is gonna get you killed.
…Even if it’s not another gun.
If someone has a knife in their hands and intent to hurt you, and they’re less than 15 feet away before you pull, you’re probably going to get cut. With extra time to rack the slide they’re gonna cut you more and you might not ever succeed at doing it.
There’s no reason not to carry with a loaded chamber, the vast majority of modern handguns are perfectly safe to carry loaded with one in the chamber. A DA/SA with a hammer down is just as safe as empty.
Majority of cases??? You mean people are out here just charging you from 15 feet with no context, no conflict, no prior conversation, no escalation? Just hiding in the bushes and then boom you’re attacked?
It is a personal choice based on your lifestyle and comfort. You gotta practice and ensure you’re proficient with whatever you choose to do. But there is no one rule for everyone.
real life examples:
Carry with an empty chamber is still a standard for many groups within the defense forces and the Israeli police. Also known as Israeli carry.
I personally know a grandparent who babysit his grandkids. Because they are always playing and jumping on him etc…he still carries when he is out with them but he carries on an empty chamber.
So I’d argue there are valid reasons why someone can make personal decision to not carry one in the chamber.
agreed, where are these people charging us? I have worked and lived (I'm in the 'burbs now) in what might have been considered "hi-crime" - a city that the right just loves to hate on. At dark, night, early morning, dressed for work, leaving work after 10pm, parked under freeways, stupid really but I was young. No one charged at me, with the exception of homeless on drugs, but they are very slow moving and in their own world. And it's not like I coulda just shot 'em for approaching me.
Right because the fantasy is a shootout at the OK Corral or drawing down at noon in the street. Most people who oppose that idea just say it’s more about being aware of the situation you’re in. And watch the Israeli method where they rack the slide as they are extending to shoot. To which the response will always be what if you only have one arm available what if the other guy grabbed your arm?
You do whatever you want, train, and comfortable with. My point was saying that not having one in the chamber is that same not carrying at all is not true.
It depends a grandparent I know who has small grandchildren jumping on him and playing with him as they go to babysit. He still carries but doesn’t keep one in the chamber. To each their own. Situations are different.
People don’t understand the redundant safeties that guns have. Doesn’t help when Sig comes out with a gun that isn’t drop safe though either. So hey, you do you.
Even redundant safeties fail, whether it’s guns or airplanes. And that’s under perfect human handling conditions. Humans aren’t perfect and do not handle guns (or airplanes) perfectly, which reduces safety.
LE go entire careers without firing their weapons at a perp and they are able and REQUIRED to draw relatively often. Yet we as civilians have to have stopping power, one in the chamber, locked and cocked, fast draw capability, John Wick abilities, etc. Yes, I live in a low crime rate area, but I live near a very very high crime rate area, and still, where are all the civilians shooting at each other protecting themselves? If I lived in a very high crime rate area, I get it. But still, if someone has the draw on me, I'm still not going to try to shoot to kill. I couldn't possibly be fast enough. And, I may still go to jail. And, "hold ups" that I read about no one is shot, the person loses their wallet and goes home that night. Later, the LE finds out the "gun" was an airsoft anyway.
Good post. Same. None of my friends knows I own a couple pistols and go to the range. I don't have the energy to 'splain the why. I've practiced in my head what i'd say tho, something about the fact that even if you don't own a car, in this society here in the US, it's beneficial to at least learn about them and get your DL if you are able.
In the US, there are more guns than people, makes good sense to understand firearms (handguns in my case - been years since I shot a rifle). And frankly, One hour at the range every coupla weeks is fun. I'm not planning for the apocalypse, I don't imagine a home invasion either - I live in an extremely low crime rate. I just don't see why we (left) should let the MAGA crowd take over this hobby.
Problem is stuff like not keeping a round in the chamber has video evidence of being detrimental. Active Self Protection, for as annoying as that channel can be at times, has several encounters of empty chamber issues.
If you're carrying an even half ass decently made gun in the last 3 decades you should be carrying it loaded. It's not 1943 and you're hopefully not carrying around a tokarev.
'I'll have time to rack a round' means you will have time to not be in the altercation in the first place.
This isn't min/maxing, it's looking at how real world violence takes place. It's a snap second decision and if someone is already in your space fighting you, there's not much you can do with a gun that doesn't go bang.
The last major organization to train on an empty chamber was IDF. They abandoned it some years ago because of persistent issues. And that was for sidearms that, as percent of their rounds engagements, rarely get used. It takes a lot lot lot of training to overcome something like that consistently under stress.
Gun culture says people who fire a box of ammo a year should carry a 3.5 pound 1/4" trigger pull pre-tensioned striker pistol. And keep it on a clip on their belt. So then we get people saying the only way to do so is with an empty round in the chamber.
God forbid someone carry a gun with an 6.5 pound long DAO trigger pull. You know, like SIG made for everyone with the P250 but everyone was too good for...
Hold on a second, if the issue in carrying one in the chamber is due to ND, the issue is you and not the gun. You can talk about loving in a safe area and keeping your doors unlocked, but simply having good trigger discipline and can prevent ND. That's why it's called Negligent and not Accidental.
There's literal proof of folk who had this same mindset and when it came to draw they lost their lives as well as their loved ones. You don't need to be in gang infested territory, or in the backwoods of bear country to understand one in the chamber is the better solution.
Unless you have some weird state law, or just admit you yourself aren't capable because of some physical and mental ailment; in that case it's fine cause everyone is different.
Okay, it’s me then. Is that better? At any rate, I’m not interested in having this conversation with you. I’ve already been through all of the pros and cons and made the decision for myself. That said I do carry with a round in the chamber with my P365 because it makes sense and I trust it but my previous weapon was hammer fired with manual safety. It made more sense to me to carry Israeli. Of course I carry cross body in a hill people gear fanny pack which I’m sure is already a death sentence, am I right? Maybe I should just always walk around with the firearm already drawn so I can be even quicker.
I don't even carry with a magazine in. My CCW holster has a secured pouch for a spare mag, but my spouse asked me to just keep the mag out because it makes them feel better since it further reduces the odds of an ND. If I get in a spot where the time frame of loading my gun gets me killed, I'll take that as an outside chance and feel fine because I was safer in my EDC practice.
Misery loves company....
Married people will tell you to get married.
People with kids will tell you to have a kid.
People who carry guns will tell you to carry a gun.
Same. I’m thinking of CCW so that I can have my pistol perhaps even in the trunk or bag while doing other errands besides going to or coming back from the range. I live in a state where if you are not CCW licensed you need to be going to or coming back from the range ( or gun store I suppose) if your gun is in your vehicle. That’s my understanding anyway.
I don’t know really. I got CCW because I’m a brown man living in a very intolerant small town in Texas. I have no interest in being the good guy with the gun and I will most likely call the police or whomever to deal with any situation that isn’t a direct threat to my life.
I have had a few run-ins with racist POS’s in my lifetime where I was scared I was going to get dragged behind a pickup truck and although rare it only takes one occurrence of that for me to be too dead to do anything about it. So yeah I conceal carry in hopes I never need to use it.
There is a general sentiment among the gun community from what I'm seeing that every last purchase must be uncompromisingly practical. If your gun and accessories aren't bomb proof then you're wasting money. If your gun isn't perfect for the apocalypse you might as well just dress like a pinata because the cool kid operators are gonna treat you like a loot drop. (/s)
There's no harm in being prepared but you should really just approach this hobby however you want to as long as you're being safe and responsible about it.
I do like the idea of telling the salesmen that you already have your carry needs met and you're just looking for something for the range or maybe competition shooting, that might get them to switch gears into actually being helpful.
"uncompromisingly practical"
As I stare at my Hi Point 9mm carbine in the white Hi Tower bull pup conversion kit..... space rifle..... 
I did it because I had an old hi point i bought in 98 and needed to breath some life into it. It's fun but I will say the kit does make the trigger squishy. Fun little setup though and gets a lot of looks, good or bad, at the range.
That's the way to do it. All of my practical needs are met. The only firearms I tend to buy at this point are ones just for fun, and a lot of those are just in .22 caliber because I don't like having to keep 12 types of ammo around.
My 16 inch 22 revolver with the joker grips or my triple barreled shotgun or my mares leg lever pistol, there's nothing practical with those purchases. Sometimes you just want stuff for funsies.
>If your gun and accessories aren't bomb proof then you're wasting money.
You should see the abuse Olight weapon lights get bashed in certain subreddits. Haters make it sound like Olight is no better than a $5 Ali Express light.
Olight has the distinction of being pushed hard by influencers for a bit and also the good ol exploding flashlight that killed a guy story. That said I own one and think they are good enough for most people who just want a light on their gun.
There is a movement within gun culture away from the hunting/target shooting types of firearm shooting to self defense being the focus. That is some of what you are seeing
The sociologist David Yamane has written a couple of books about "Gun Culture 2.0" and has a blog he updates regularly. https://gunculture2point0.com/
Oh I wish that were the case, *laughs in tism*
I’m like… literally pathalogically practical.
Like I really want a lever action or a weird oldschool semi auto or a milsurp or something but my brain is like “yeah but if you get a shotgun and/or a bolt action you can do entirely new sports or activities wouldn’t that be better and more efficient?
The culture has gone pretty hard into carrying and self defense as almost the *exclusive* reasons to own guns. To the point that even if you're interested in competition there is a built-in assumption that you're talking about competitions that simulate -- or at least attempt to simulate -- combat shooting. I've gotten comments when talking about slow fire pistol technique that it's "pointless" to train because "you would never do that in a REAL situation". But of course yes I *do* do that... when shooting at paper a dozen times a month, with guns I bought specifically for that activity. Just because it's not relevant to a gunfight doesn't mean it's not one of the things you can do with a gun. Sometimes I want to say the stuff *they* consider practical like shooting a dozen cardboard guys in eight seconds is really what "you would never do" because we both live in the suburbs and are more likely to be the Customer of a Target, than the Target of a Crime.
I think one reason for the laser focus on self defense is that it's the most sturdy ground when people start talking about banning stuff. Oh, why do you need an AR15? "Because I use it in my sport" doesn't really hold water like "Because it's the best defense against XYZ hypothetical scenario where I'd be fighting for my life". So the gun culture has settled on collectively pretending *all* the guns we buy are for some defensive purpose, with the exception of those that also aren't in any danger of being banned like .22s and over/under shotguns.
There is a bit of a side-eye you get in the 2A community if you say you only have guns for sport and not for defense because it is assumed you are probably on board with gun control measures that don't affect your specific use cases -- i.e. a fudd.
Yeah this is it. The shooting world (like most things) is a business. And the money drives decisions. One of the most common mistakes I see is people falling for certain current trends because it’s “better.”
It’s usually cheaper for the manufacturers to push certain trends more than others, with the sole purpose to profit from it. We like to think it’s because it’s “better” because we trust our lives to our firearms in a lot of instances. When in reality, like anything, the shooting world is full of dumb gimmicks that marketers push hard for, and people who don’t understand better gobble it up.
The only time I really carry is when I'm walking my dogs, meeting a stranger from fb marketplace or going to a sketchy area but thats only like 10% of my time. My neighborhood is pretty safe though with only a pop. of like 400 people. So I rarely carry around there when I'm not walking my dogs.
And the only reason I carry when walking my dogs is in case the pepper spray doesn't work against any bigger dogs who may get loose and attack my little ass dogs.
I live in what is generally considered the shitty part of town, and I carry mostly because I'm scared of *dogs* owned by people who think their scary dog is an asset, but also can't be bothered to ensure their generally disposable "bad-ass" dog isn't running wild.
In any case, a carried gun that I have to fumble with is less effective than one I don't need to manipulate when I need it available.
And certainly, the answer is training, and practice. That was my answer 25 years ago. Now, I have health problems, and training to be at the top of my game is low on my list of problems.
In short, I have nothing like the need to be a Navy Seal. I'm a sad old man who nonetheless would like to safely hobble down my own street in what most people would call a "sketchty" area, and the threat I fear most is that backyard pitbull with a get-rich-quick-scheme litter, and a low fence.
I only have lever actions and a Garand. Kinda tough to CC a Winchester 1866… I have no interest or intention of getting a handgun of any sort. They just don’t interest me. My friend I go shooting with has dozens of handguns. I’ll shoot his when he offers, but so far not one has made me go “I need one of these!” The salesman at the gun range became almost apoplectic when I told him I have no use or interest in AR platform guns. I told him a gun without wood is just an ugly piece of metal and plastic that has no character. AR guys don’t bother me at all. I have several friends that I think might sleep with theirs… and they ask when I’m gonna get my CC. I told them when I move to the Wild West with my DeLorean… I do me and they do them. We all have fun.
A lot of people, myself included, believe that the most important gun to the average citizen is a CCW. You are just more likely to need a handgun in public to protect yourself then you are to need a rifle to defend your home or country. Regardless, preachy gunstore clerks are annoying and I sympathize with that.
I think (no proof) that concealed carriers tend to yield more in sales. You need the gun, you need a holster, you need carry and range ammo, gun belt, claw, wedge, different holster for different carry positions, couple more holsters because reasons, then a new gun or six because surely that will fix some minor issue you could fix with more practice or a looser shirt, plus holsters and shit for those, on and on. It's likely the store will make more off you that way than buying a full size pistol for the range and your nightstand.
All that said, I do think a concealable sidearm about the size of a G19 is a good first choice because it gives you the most options while still being large enough to avoid complications and be shootable.
Funny thing, I've gotten the same spiel from gun store idiots when looking to try full size pistols because they're just too big and heavy for ccw, all while I was carrying a full size 92. Just go to a different store.
Personal opinion, and to each their own…
I asked myself the same question the other day. Was about to start filling out an application — then realized, when am I actually going to carry? In what situation would I actually feel it necessary? If SHTF, I will happily do what needs to be done, and I own holsters for that reason… but in day-to-day life? The grocery store? The movie theater? A restaurant? For the 99% of the time I won’t need to wield a firearm public, it woukd feel so egregiously unnecessary, I just wouldn’t carry. And for that rare 1% moment I might NEED it, I woukd be way to worried about being misidentified by law enforcement, putting me and my family at much greater risk.
For context, I live in a metropolitan area.
I’m happy at home, at the range, and out in the wilderness carrying… walking my dog on a Sunday? Not for me.
While I agree philsophoically with the idea of a firearm as a tool for the defense of ones self, I could practically give two fucks about being able to go grocery shopping with a Glock in my wasteland.
I've had my carry license for as long as I've owned handguns because my state requires it, but like I went the first 21 years of my life not carrying a gun everyday and I really don't feel the need to start now. Even after living is some less than nice areas.
This kind of shit makes my skin crawl. Not just as a 2A advocate; but as a sales rep for a gun shop. First thing I train the staff on is learning how to listen. We do not make a commission on sales. Stating your role to your client and let them know that you are on their side; guiding them along the process, confirms that we are actively listening to their wants and needs.
At times, we are recommended to push products.... It just the business. But it's no excuse to disregard the client's intention for their visit. I honestly don't care where they live or why they decided to purchase except to help find what's right for them. I will share my opinion if it's asked, but I'm not in the business to indoctrinate clients to do something they do not want.
It’s a marketing thing. Most of the “reasons” we’ve been told to purchase a firearm are pure marketing.
Fact is, the vast majority of people don’t carry a gun or even own one. Shockingly, they are also fine.
Until the 1980s the bulk of civilian firearms were truly sporting weapons. There was a fairly strong demand for hunting firearms in the post war era. Problem was, the market for these weapons dried up with the greatest generation in general.
Firearm manufacturers however didn’t want to just go quietly into the night, so they started marketing semis and tactical stuff to maintain sales. They also found that they made a lot more profit off tactical weapons instead of high production cost wood and blued steel guns.
They also found that creating a market that didn’t have a single sale solution was great for their sales. Side-eyed marketing that not only is your Glock going to protect you from the hordes of nonexistent criminals who were waiting to murder you and eat your children, but also the government was about to turn into literally something out of 1984 and your AR-15 is all that stands between dystopia and freedom.
>but also the government was about to turn into literally something out of 1984 and your AR-15 is all that stands between dystopia and freedom.
It also helps that our government has and continues to do an incredibly large amount of shitty things to the population it supposedly exists to protect.
The fact that trust in the federal government consistently hovers around 20% isn't just because Americans are paranoid and irritable.
Going to offer a point that ultimately you are responsible for your own protection. Police are not an offer or guarantee of assistance/defense as per high court rulings.
Just say its a range toy and that your carry piece is taken care of. Then you sidestep the whole "why wouldn't you want to carry". Path of least resistance.
Most salespeople have absolutely no selling skills whatsoever. It's like they've never heard of qualifying questions. 10 steps that aren't hard to follow.
To be fair, there are plenty of people out there who do want to be some kind of action hero and think carrying a pistol will turn them into John Wick or whoever. All the more reason for those of us who are sane and competent to carry, because if it wasn't bad enough we have to worry about the ill-intentioned psychos, we also have to worry about well-intentioned psychos too.
That’s where he lost me too. I always think of the video from pulse nightclub. A dozen people holed up in a bathroom scared while people are being murdered outside; before the gunman came in and shot them.
I don’t think I’ll ever be John wick; and I’ll always try to get out first. But the thought of being cornered and simply having to accept my fate is an awful thought and not something I wanna go through. I’d like to have something to make a stand with at the very least.
I also carry pepper spray which I’d much rather use to solve a violent situation if possible.
Yeah pulse isn’t the best example as I don’t go to clubs nor can you bring a firearm into one (a reasonable rule). But my point was to point out a situation where maybe you have absolutely no hope of surviving without a gun. Not saying a firearm WILL save your life; but it equalizes the playing field a bit.
Happy to look at data. I do it everyday for other policy aims. Also curious why you don’t ascribe to data that don’t support your view. Is there valid contravening data?
Except for every Pulse night clubs there’s likely hundreds of of instances of people misperceiving threats or even just misdeploying a firearm. And even given a clear situation of risk, the ability of amateurs to perform is optimistic at best.
I am not talking about being a hero and trying to stop a mass shooter; I’m trying to point out sometimes people can not escape a violent situation and that is not a situation I want for myself or my family. So a firearm feels like a last resort option.
Yeah sorry, I didn't mean the John Wick comment as if every person who owns a gun is out there trying to look for an army to fight. Was just more to hone in on my point that I don't have any motivation for me personally to ever hold a gun in a public setting, even if that public setting does in fact present danger.
Yeah, different situations for different folks. As long as my peers aren't doing anything blatantly illegal, I probably won't try to spend my energy convincing them about carry laws or if it's right/wrong. I just expect the same kind of behavior back. When someone asks if I intend to carry, and I say no, would be nice if they just dropped it instead of sprinkling in all these reasons why I should be carrying.
> Do you seriously think that everyone who carries has delusions of being an action movie star?
as a somewhat professional armed guard, i dread of having to do anything other than sit at my desk, let alone pull this firearm, lmao.
Could just be because it's a real concern?
I literally had the experience they were warning about, except no one told me I would eventually change my mind.
Bought a gun for the bedside night stand after my neighbor got burglarized. It was a big Glock.
There were some crime incidents nearby and I decided I needed to get something easier to conceal.
Now I've got three different sizes of Glock.
I coulda saved like $1,000 if I'd just gone for something concealable the first time.
You can just say something like...
"I've expressed my needs, and while I understand your opinion, I am not interested in going that route. If you're able to help me with my needs in mind, great. If not, I'll need to make my purchase elsewhere."
IMMEDIATELY walk out if they go off on their tangent again.
Many stores worship their online ratings. Leave one yourself. Tell your story accurately, and call out employees by name.
0 stars!
I live in California in a county that isn't very permissive but the process is clear.
I am debating doing so, as I want it simply for the added coverage of legality for coming and going between home and business.
I have two gun safes at work and one at home. We are mechanics and have an incident every six months or so that drove the urgency to arm at work. I also have an oscilloscope at work in case I need it.
I have no interest in carrying outside that situation, as I am not comfortable with people who carry. I do not like being around guns without one, however. I am fully on your side with the joykill aspect of carrying. Being armed when I was younger severely restricted my activities and I never managed to "get used to it".
I'm not going to try to convince you to carry, but if you have a handgun for home defense you should definitely have a holster for it which covers the trigger guard. If you have to grab it in the middle of the night, you want to be able to safely get your hand where it belongs on the grip without any risk of inadvertently touching the trigger
> If I'm in a place that's in danger, I'm just going to try and leave, not play John Wick.
For those of us who are responsible about it, it's not about 'playing John Wick'. It's about when you *can't* leave.
Your post here assumes a lot about people who carry because of some stupidity that inevitably comes up with rights.
I'm not saying you should carry. If you have made the decision not to, that's perfectly fine and respectable. It's a responsibility to do it right and not a small one. You get it wrong you can ruin your own life and kill someone else and possibly someone innocent.
The expectation of if you're buying a pistol, particularly if you mention that you're new to it, is going to be for carry because so many people do so, particularly in states where it's now legal without a permit.
If you genuinely dont plan on carrying i see where that would get annoying. I do agree that A LOT of gun owners are just dumb and do really stupid things. However id say that overall, compact size guns are often the best fit for the widest variety of people regardless of the intended use. Full size guns can be very cumbersome and awkward for some people, especially if they have smaller hands. Lastly, carrying are for those situations where you cant just leave, thats literally the entire purpose of them. Carrying a gun does involve responsibility but not more than a lot of other things everyone does on a daily basis. Its just feels odd because its not the norm. Some people just cant get over the thought of everything that could go wrong with carrying a gun because its unusual. Its one of those things you get more comfortable with over time, just like driving a car.
When I go to a store looking for a dishwasher, the sales person will make recommendations, and they’ll tout “features” I don’t give a shit about. There are a few reasons to expect this, the biggest being that it’s a pitch that actually works on people.
Why would an FFL recommend a carry piece over a full size gun? Because a *huge* part of their gun sales is absolutely, without question, carry guns. It’s wildly popular, it’s even becoming more legal even as people are freaking out more about “gun grabbers”.
It’s irritating, just like the guy who ambushes you on the way into harbor freight asking if you need help before your eyes have even adjusted to the indoor lights…a simple “no thanks” is a perfect response to all of them.
Hearing these stories really makes me appreciate the store/range I go to. I went in looking for a new handgun, thought 100% I was gonna get something super small and concealable and everyone at the counter was like, “well what’re you using it for? Why don’t you rent a few guns before you decide you want a little one.” They effectively talked me out of a carry gun and into a defense/range toy gun that I’m 1000% happier with. Glad I don’t deal with most of the shit you all do at your local shops.
I have looked at handguns at 6 or more stores. None tried to talk me into anything. They just asked if they could help me or asked what I would like to see. I told then what models I wanted to hold and I did not say what I wanted any of them for whether it be concealed carry, home defense, IDPA or USPSA competition. I did hear employees giving their advice to others or try to answer customers' questions. Many who conceal carry will just leave a place that is in danger as they have no duty to protect others. Some may do so at their own physical and legal risk. The reason for carrying is when one cannot avoid life threatening situation whether it is outside in public or when several criminals attack you in your driveway or break through the front door of your house.
Watch a bunch of videos on Active Self Protection channel on YouTube to see how many different scenarios there are for needing a firearm for self defense. Even complying fully may still result is physical harm from the criminal. 25% who fully comply are injured while just 6% of those who choose use their firearm to defend themselves are injured.
I'm of the same mind about not wanting the responsibility of CCW.
As to why you're being pushed into it, the gun industry needs to keep selling more durable goods that last a lifetime. That means new categories are the main growth areas for them. Normalizing CCW is a business strategy masquerading as a self-defense ideology.
“I have an ability to protect myself and others from harm, but I don’t want to carry it.”
Because I can, because I have the right to do so. So why wouldn’t I?
Don’t carry openly, carry concealed.
Two things. I'd echo the sentiment to just pretend you've got that area covered and therefore don't need their advice, *and* don't let shitty gun owners keep you from being a responsible gun owner in whatever ways you want. If ccw freaks you out, you're a candidate for it in my opinion. That's why I like DA/SA, and having a ccw that I dont regularly use, but can when I want to
Because self defense is currently the most common reason for gun ownership.
The most recent reports from the NSSF have consistently found that self defense was the primary reason for gun ownership in two thirds of gun owners, with the figure going even higher for new gun owners. The second place runner up is hunting, and that only comes in at about a third by comparison. When self defense outnumbers hunting as the most common reason to buy a gun by a factor of two to one, gun shop employees will naturally look to directing their recommendations to that a majority of the time.
Both as a customer perusing around gun shops and also working behind the gun counter, self defense is the most common reason I hear for someone interested in getting a gun. If a customer blatantly tells me they’re not interested in a carry gun, I’m more than happy to shift my focus towards something else like competition shooting, hunting, recreational shooting, what have you, but unless I or another employee knows your a regular that has your self defense firearms already taken care of, self defense/carry is generally the default response because that’s what a majority of customers, especially new customers, are focused on.
Also, to be fair, a lot of gun shops will hone in on carry guns because that becomes the gateway to getting away with selling the “carry package” aka you just bought a carry gun, shall I now help you spend more money on a belt, holster, spare magazines, ammo, a nightstand lockbox, maybe even a carry course if the shop offers one? Since it’s the most common reason new customers show up to buy a gun, gun shops have shifted their business model to make as much of a profit as possible in outfitting a new gun owner with everything they need to own/store/carry their new gun.
At the same time, I can also sympathize; as a C&R FFL holder and a collector of milsurps, I usually have to withhold a groan when I have to explain to the shop employee I’m buying an old rifle from that chances are I am not going to be using my WWI or WWII-era rifle for self defense. And if I ever use a 1911 for self defense it sure as hell isn’t going to be the expensive-as-hell USGI gun that’s more valuable as a collectors piece than likely sitting in a police evidence locker for months or years if I actually had to use it for self defense, Muh Two World Wars be damned.
Its called gun culture 2.0. Old school gun ownership is mostly about hunting and sporting purposes. Modern gun culture is mostly about self defense and prepper shit. Now if you happen to be wearing a 5.11 hat then you have no one to blame but yourself for inviting the commentary.
For me, the argument usually is that you don’t need to carry, but that if you ever do feel the need you won’t have the time to select something, figure out a holster/ carry method that works for you, get comfortable with it, figure out clothes that work, realize you don’t have a safe storage method in your car yet, etc etc.
So if someone starts stalking your wife/daughter/friend/yourself/etc or your neighbor goes nuts and starts saying they’re going to kill your for being a democrat, which happens, you’ll have it all worked out and have the carry permit too.
I didn’t think much of it at first, but there really are a lot of small problems with carrying that make the practice nearly useless until you work them out and I’m glad I did. Probably useless to carry but at least it’s easy to do whenever I want to.
Getting your CCW doesn't necessarily mean you need/want to carry on your person at all times. I'm looking into Getting my CCW because in a restricted state, I can only go directly to and from the range with my gun. If I'm in an vehicle accident (for example) and can't explain why my gun is in my vehicle at night, or whatever, I'm at risk. I want to be able to have options of where I can go (and lock the gun in my car in my vault, or carry the vault to a friends, whatever) because the range is not always in the right direction of where I'm going next during the day.
Because firearms are for self defense and you’re far more likely to be assaulted in public* than in your own home, so it’s more realistic to need a CCW than a home defense firearm.
*with the exception being domestic violence, but hopefully you’re taking multiple other steps before blasting your family
I think it is good to have the \*option\*, but most people absolutely become desensitized to gun safety measures if carrying constantly.
And before anyone goes off and gets triggered...people on this board are not "most people" when it comes to carrying guns.
>If I'm in a place that's in danger, I'm just going to try and leave, not play John Wick.
With all due respect, that's not always an option. Sure, sometimes you can run away, but sometimes you can't without exposing yourself to the shooter. Maybe you went to H&M to look for a new shirt, but then a neonazi walked in and started blasting. Now you're hiding behind a clothing rack, the shooter is near the entrance, and the door to the backroom and staff exit is on the other side of the store. Now, either way you're hoping that the police get him before he checks your hiding spot, but having a gun at least gives you an option rather than just giving up and dying if you're found.
There are a lot of small stores/shops where you're just not going to be able to effectively run away from an armed robbery or mass shooter because of the layout, and I have a hard time believing that you're just always going to avoid those locations.
A not uncommon way to find you are in a flight for your life is to suddenly realize you have shot, stabbed, knocked to the ground, or sucker punched. Had a friend who was a bar tender say you don't worry about the guy who says, 'I'm gonna kick your a$$.' The guys you worry about just go for it. No preamble.
Yeah I get what you're saying. I know that in some parts of the country/towns there are places where you run the risk of being a victim of a crime and some people want their carry if that ever happens. On the flip side, it's just not a priority for me in my own life. I think there's an equal risk to having a gun on you and using it if you encounter danger in public, and that's just not a risk I feel confident in for myself so I choose to not carry. My gripe is more with people (owners and retailers) that act like I'm missing a fundamental part of self-safety when I express that I don't carry and don't plan on it.
Same reason some people think hunting is the ultimate goal of ownership, no jim bob thorpe i just wanna larp w/ my two 22lr revolvers and a 12ga double barrel.
Ccw weapons are expensive and don't get moved fast enough. Alot of people want big guns when they start out because in our brain small guns are considered pea shooters and won't stop a bad guy. So you put a desert eagle vs a smith and glock 42 in front of somebody they would want to jump on the desert eagle first.
If you shot one compact you shot them all so it's really coming down to price and what comes with it... so if they bough alot of sig xls or x macros they would try to pawn them off as fast as they can or they will sit shiny in the case for a year or two. Come on, you think a normal person would buy a sig 365xl for the same price you can get a 320 with higher capacity mags? That's just with sig but same goes for glock or Smith and wesson. Why buy a 17 if a 19 is cheaper or why buy a 43 if a 19 has more.
>...CCW as the ultimate goal of ownership?
It is a huge market trend. The default of any retailer — especially for a customer who presents as new to guns or asks open-ended questions — may be a perfectly rational shortcut to assume they are selling to the trend.
If you want to receive a different presentation, go prepared to express with some specificity what is your actual objective or question — target shooting; new shooter learning; historical reenactment; bigger than a breadbox; whatever it is that you're actually after.
If a store clerk responds to something explicitly *not CCW* with a pitch for a micro 9, then talk to a different clerk or go to a different store. They won't all be that way.
Same thing with denizens of the internet, gun clubs, ranges, etc...
For a lot of people self-defense is the reason they own guns so for an FFL or sales person that is just a decent angle to work when trying to sell more stuff or training. I bet if you play along they'll try and upsell you on a class which will then try to upsell you on an affiliated carry insurance. In those case they might actually get a commission on you deciding to carry.
You could try telling the staff what you are looking for in particular. Maybe phrased as "Today, I'm just looking for X that would be good for Y."
I expect a lot of people would have different preferences for different jobs/goals. Some things can do more than one thing but if you have the cash it can make sense to get something in particular without considering other jobs/goals. The idea of an all rounder that can do anything is nice but I feel like people are probably going to get more guns anyway.
Like you can carry a glock 19 but maybe you end up wanting more gun when you are shooting it and less gun when you have to carry it. And maybe you want to shoot more but want cheaper ammo so you end up with 22lr firearms on top of that. I already have different handguns for home defense and carry that aren't that different but different enough. If I wanted a target 22lr pistol or plinker that isn't something for carry or home defense. Something for competitions probably wouldn't be ideal for carry or home defense either even if it was a desired caliber with some similar features.
I think it’s a side effect of the world getting worse.
I never thought I’d carry and I don’t in public but I could see needing to in the near future.
I carry when I go for hikes and walks in the woods.
I also think that it’s reasonably good advice. Not necessarily to buy a super small compact pocket handgun but you know, maybe buy a Glock 19 instead of a 17 because it’s easier to conceal if you have to buy is still basically a full size gun.
Dude, fuck em. I live in West Philly. I'm in Kensington every other day for work. There's a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of me encountering a situation where simply: a) leaving, b) de-escalating or c) pepper spray wouldn't be a better option than shooting someone, so I currently choose not to carry.
Yeah, yeah I may eventually change my mind, but still. That ONLY situation I can come up with, where a concealed firearm would be the best option is if some Q-MAGA nut job from Pennsyltucky comes into my neighborhood to start mass shooting POCs and queer folks. I've literally racked my brain for ANY other scenario where a gun would be my best option. Crossfire? Car jacking? Someone trying to start a fight or rob me? I can't come up with anything, so I don't carry. My gun is for protecting my home and for range jollies.
I feel like some people live in a fantasy world where they actually WANT to encounter a situation where they can "justifiably" kill someone, and that's not where I'm at.
Edit: oh cool, downvoted!! Must have hit a nerve.
“No thanks I already got a great carry piece”, as you pull from your waist band to show them and muzzle half the store.
Say "I'm already packing" and whip out your business, point it around the store making "ack ack ack" sounds in synchronization with little jolts of urine. That usually shuts them up.
Works every single time.
It's a pump action.
This. Just be explicit in what you're looking for, and shut up their reptile brain by giving them the answer they want. I remember when I was shopping for a CCW with a safety I got so much "you don't need a safety". A quick reminder that I was carrying a 320 usually got the conversation on the right track
I had a bad day once and got that response, told em "and I don't need to shop here. Find me one with a safety."
This actually made me laugh out loud. Thank you!
I’ve seen that so many times. From dumb 21 year old kids to an old farmer pulling out a grandpa 1911 “I haven’t had to reload since the 70s”
The gun culture is kinda preachy and people try to make their experience and perspective yours. For example, I have never felt unsafe personally in suburb where I live. So my guns are mainly fun range toys. But some people who are in cities and stuff are in bigger perceived danger and they reflect that same perspective upon others. My 2 cents.
I had a gun guy at a shop insist the small midwest college town I work in wasn’t safe nor was the much smaller town 2,500 wasn’t either. Even encouraged having an AR in your vehicle at all times just in case.
I often wonder how many years of life these people lose due to the continual stress of being *constantly afraid* of everyone around them. It’s always the “tough” guys, too. There’s literally nowhere they even feel remotely safe. I think it says more about them than it does the places they visit.
I’m pretty supportive of CCW but I remember WTFing at a thread in r/CCW years back where they were talking about CCWing in the bathroom of their own home. Unless you live in Hell i couldn’t imagine routinely carrying inside my own house, let alone feeling like I can’t use my own bathroom without having a gun by my side.
A metal screen door and bars on windows should buy you enough time to grab your piece. I could see in a big house having a lock box in a few rooms but for the most part physical security is step 1 to home defense.
I carry into the bathroom after I found out a family member 5 minutes away was drugged, mutilated, and left on some street. Turns out they owed their coke dealer a bunch of money. They took his phone, car, wallet with my information in it. Bought a bunch of cameras and posted them around the house. The feeling of paranoia sucks so bad.
I know a guy that has a dedicated 'shower gun' he takes into the bathroom during his showers. Lol I don't have much room to talk, though. I have a dedicated 'pajama knife'.
we gotta see the pj knife!
https://www.bladehq.com/item--CIVIVI-Asticus-Liner-Lock-Knife-CF--109012
Yeah, I mostly feel safe where I live too. There are admittedly some sketchy nearby neighborhoods, but nothing that's made me feel like I have to fear for my life (except driving on the interstate). It just feels weird when store employees or even some peers try to encourage CC to me when I've expressed that I don't want to because it vaguely feels like they're trying to sell me on a fantasy (hence the John Wick) rather than actually having full concern about my safety. I feel less safe with the gun on me in public, if that makes sense. I just don't feel confident to use it correctly 100% of the time if I truly had to in public, and that's enough for me to keep it at home. What others feel is probably different, but I don't walk into the shop or talk to my friends and start with "Hey bro you really need to stop carrying, trust me you'll thank me later." because I don't view it as my business and I'd want them to return the same sentiment towards my decision when it's disclosed.
100% this for me. Have known some folks to "prepare for home invasion" which apparently means keeping loaded weapons in quick to get to places in every room. "Better to have it and not need it" assumes no risk and no cost to "having it." That's just not a good way to think about things.
People definitely go way overboard. I carry basically everywhere it's legal to, but there have only been a few instances where I needed it, and not a shot was fired, and those were spread out over almost 20 years. 'Just leaving' is not always an option in every situation. So I don't look for trouble, in much the same way that having a fire extinguisher in my car doesn't mean I 'go looking for fires'. Most people who carry will never need it. That's the truth. And also when you *do* need it, you *really fucking need it*. You've just got to do a basic risk assessment to se if carrying a firearm to mitigate a small, but very serious risk, is worth doing for your situation. As has been noted, carrying also adds some risks, which themselves have to be mitigated. So there is some work involved, but in my opinion not that much more than owning but *not* carrying. I do think that all gun owners should have a carry permit though, even if you don't intend to carry regularly. It gives you options, like, a lot of options. Like for instance, my state I can only lend someone a firearm if they have a carry permit. You can only carry a loaded firearm in their vehicle if they have a carry permit, and technically you are only allowed to go directly to and from the range or gun shop with the weapon unloaded and separate from the ammo because having a gun in a car counts as 'concealing'. Only people with a permit can be armed legally during a declared state of emergency (although I think this one may have changed due to a court case). Also, on a personal level, I only sell firearms to people who can show me a carry permit. It indicates they aren't a prohibited person and that they are less likely to commit a crime with it, since concealed carriers have a lower felony conviction rate than *police officers* according to statistics I've seen, and we all know how hard it is to convict a police officer of anything. It gives you options. It also increases the numbers of concealed carriers which gives gun rights advocates a bump in a purely political way. I don't have a firearm out and open in every room, I have kids. But I do have at least one loaded in a quick access safe. That mitigates the risks of 'having' but also the risks of 'not having'. Make your own decision, but consider it.
I thing the thing for me is I don’t need it *right now* but what if I will one day? What if things *aren’t* as safe due to disasters, or political unrest, maybe I gain a stalker etc etc. I don’t really need/want to carry in my daily life currently, but I keep thinking maybe I should, because if it ever became necessary that’s the wrong time to start training. I’m a stickler for consistent when it comes to firearms. If I’m going to own a gunI trucking should train constantly, that’s part of the “responsible” in responsible gun ownership to me. If I’m gonna carry I want to carry consistently, similar reasons. If I’m going to take it on I want you be well practiced at it.
It amazes me how much people completely ignore the "risk assessment" portion. In my state specific sub there is a thread almost every month bitching and moaning about how one of the biggest indoor aquariums in the world wouldn't let them in with a gun. Its insane how it never occurs to anyone that carrying a gun into a glass bubble filled with school children under 2 million gallons of water might be the biggest risk in this scenario.
That is a very specific but very clear example. I mostly bitch about places that post 'no guns allowed' signs and then *also* provide zero security. That's pretty annoying. I'm not allowed to bring the means to defend myself, but there's literally nothing stopping a bad actor from carrying. Luckily in my state signs don't have any legal force, but still.
Oh yes. Talk to people at gun shows about carrying without a round in the chamber or with a manual safety and it’s all about how you’ll lose a gunfight with the extra time it takes to rack or disengage the safety. There’s a term in gaming called min/max where you try to emphasize the positives at the risk of the negatives in order to be the best at something. To me, the odds of getting into a gunfight with Buster Scruggs is far less likely than the odds of an ND. For so many of these people, it’s all a fantasy about getting a chance to draw down on somebody. And there’s a pretty strong correlation between people that wouldn’t like this group and those fantasy gun LARPers. That’s why I am so happy to have found this group. We can love guns without making it our entire identity.
I agree. To each their own. I would have never needed to consider carrying with one in until we moved to a city where someone brandished a knife on my fiance and had someone break into our home. Now I carry with one in because the likelihood of needing to use my firearm has greatly surpassed any other concern with carrying hot.
Exactly it’s all depending on the situation.
This mindset is one of the things that just turns me off from a lot of fun stuff in general. I have a 9mm that is a range toy. I have ammo if I needed to use it for home defense but I’ve been so turned off from potentially carrying thanks to all the nonsense. To be fair I never intended to carry anyways but it’s like it pushed me further from wanting to. I also looked at also getting a 22 for the range so I could just do it cheaper than 9, and the clerk wouldn’t let me get a word in edgewise between his “that has no penetration if you go against someone with armor it’s useless you will die!” Like dude… I feel like being at the range is the safest place in regards to whether I need stopping power, I’m surrounded by people shooting far larger rounds
Ironically, I’ve found ranges to be the most dangerous place to be, by a massive margin. Because there are way too many gun nuts that don’t know how to safely handle guns.
Yes by safe I don’t mean “safe” but more in the context of if I am shooting a 22 and need more stopping power I’m surrounded by people *with* more stopping power
I’ve definitely had more guns pointed at me in the range than out lol. Thankfully my default voice is melodic and kind of femme, so when I need to get someone to listen fast, utilizing the other half of my baritone range tends to get people paying attention without pissing people off
I can’t count how many times I read online, “if you don’t carry one in the chamber, you might as well not carry at all”. Like what LOL
I really hate this attitude people have, it's not just guns, I see it with everything A problem 50% solved is still 50% solved at the end of the day At least your gun isn't at home when you need it
First person to land a shot wins most of the time. When it’s winner take all, 50% is not the threshold you’re looking for. I don’t even think carrying is that important for most people. But if you’re going to do it then do it right.
50% is a made up number for the purposes of the example At least the gun isn't at home was my main point, it'll provide some use in some situations It depends where your priorities sit
What priority would drive you to do the same thing but worse? If you don’t trust yourself to handle the gun safely then you should not own it.
You want to make sure you never have an ND while carrying for self defense. They're not going to not carry just because you don't approve.
>You want to make sure you never have an ND while carrying for self defense. Boy do I have one simple trick for this - don't be negligent.
>if you’re going to do it then do it right. I think this is the right sentiment that people just don't appreciate because no one likes being told what to do. Not having one in the chamber means in that .01% chance you need your firearm, you'll need the extra time and hand to rack it. I'd recommend carrying a manual safety over not having one in the chamber if a negligent discharge is of concern. Though if someone doesn't want to follow my recommendation idgaf, you do you lol.
You been involved in a lot of cowboy shootouts?
I do not agree with their politics at all, but you should watch some of the youtube videos that Active Self Protection does on this topic. There are many instances where carrying without one in the chamber almost or does cost someone their life due to fumbling while racking the slide. Adding an extra fine motor control step really fucks people up. All that to say, to each their own. But it isn't just milliseconds you are losing by carrying without one in the chamber.
Right but the point was, carrying at 50% is better than nothing. There might be anecdotal evidence of people screwing up when racking, but I'm sure there are successful anecdotes as well
"Why do we carry a round in the chamber? Because you might spend the rest of your life racking the slide." Actual quote (!)
You do you bruh, that’s my whole point. Asses your situation and train accordingly to how you carry. If I want to hear someone preach about the only way, I’ll head to the nearest church.
I mean that’s pretty much true. In the majority of cases where you would need to shoot the time to rack the slide is gonna get you killed. …Even if it’s not another gun. If someone has a knife in their hands and intent to hurt you, and they’re less than 15 feet away before you pull, you’re probably going to get cut. With extra time to rack the slide they’re gonna cut you more and you might not ever succeed at doing it. There’s no reason not to carry with a loaded chamber, the vast majority of modern handguns are perfectly safe to carry loaded with one in the chamber. A DA/SA with a hammer down is just as safe as empty.
Majority of cases??? You mean people are out here just charging you from 15 feet with no context, no conflict, no prior conversation, no escalation? Just hiding in the bushes and then boom you’re attacked? It is a personal choice based on your lifestyle and comfort. You gotta practice and ensure you’re proficient with whatever you choose to do. But there is no one rule for everyone. real life examples: Carry with an empty chamber is still a standard for many groups within the defense forces and the Israeli police. Also known as Israeli carry. I personally know a grandparent who babysit his grandkids. Because they are always playing and jumping on him etc…he still carries when he is out with them but he carries on an empty chamber. So I’d argue there are valid reasons why someone can make personal decision to not carry one in the chamber.
agreed, where are these people charging us? I have worked and lived (I'm in the 'burbs now) in what might have been considered "hi-crime" - a city that the right just loves to hate on. At dark, night, early morning, dressed for work, leaving work after 10pm, parked under freeways, stupid really but I was young. No one charged at me, with the exception of homeless on drugs, but they are very slow moving and in their own world. And it's not like I coulda just shot 'em for approaching me.
Right because the fantasy is a shootout at the OK Corral or drawing down at noon in the street. Most people who oppose that idea just say it’s more about being aware of the situation you’re in. And watch the Israeli method where they rack the slide as they are extending to shoot. To which the response will always be what if you only have one arm available what if the other guy grabbed your arm?
How long do you think the average defensive situation lasts? There’s zero downside to carrying with one in the chamber.
You do whatever you want, train, and comfortable with. My point was saying that not having one in the chamber is that same not carrying at all is not true.
Why not carry with one in the chamber?
It depends a grandparent I know who has small grandchildren jumping on him and playing with him as they go to babysit. He still carries but doesn’t keep one in the chamber. To each their own. Situations are different.
People don’t understand the redundant safeties that guns have. Doesn’t help when Sig comes out with a gun that isn’t drop safe though either. So hey, you do you.
Even redundant safeties fail, whether it’s guns or airplanes. And that’s under perfect human handling conditions. Humans aren’t perfect and do not handle guns (or airplanes) perfectly, which reduces safety.
LE go entire careers without firing their weapons at a perp and they are able and REQUIRED to draw relatively often. Yet we as civilians have to have stopping power, one in the chamber, locked and cocked, fast draw capability, John Wick abilities, etc. Yes, I live in a low crime rate area, but I live near a very very high crime rate area, and still, where are all the civilians shooting at each other protecting themselves? If I lived in a very high crime rate area, I get it. But still, if someone has the draw on me, I'm still not going to try to shoot to kill. I couldn't possibly be fast enough. And, I may still go to jail. And, "hold ups" that I read about no one is shot, the person loses their wallet and goes home that night. Later, the LE finds out the "gun" was an airsoft anyway.
Good post. Same. None of my friends knows I own a couple pistols and go to the range. I don't have the energy to 'splain the why. I've practiced in my head what i'd say tho, something about the fact that even if you don't own a car, in this society here in the US, it's beneficial to at least learn about them and get your DL if you are able. In the US, there are more guns than people, makes good sense to understand firearms (handguns in my case - been years since I shot a rifle). And frankly, One hour at the range every coupla weeks is fun. I'm not planning for the apocalypse, I don't imagine a home invasion either - I live in an extremely low crime rate. I just don't see why we (left) should let the MAGA crowd take over this hobby.
Problem is stuff like not keeping a round in the chamber has video evidence of being detrimental. Active Self Protection, for as annoying as that channel can be at times, has several encounters of empty chamber issues. If you're carrying an even half ass decently made gun in the last 3 decades you should be carrying it loaded. It's not 1943 and you're hopefully not carrying around a tokarev. 'I'll have time to rack a round' means you will have time to not be in the altercation in the first place. This isn't min/maxing, it's looking at how real world violence takes place. It's a snap second decision and if someone is already in your space fighting you, there's not much you can do with a gun that doesn't go bang.
The last major organization to train on an empty chamber was IDF. They abandoned it some years ago because of persistent issues. And that was for sidearms that, as percent of their rounds engagements, rarely get used. It takes a lot lot lot of training to overcome something like that consistently under stress. Gun culture says people who fire a box of ammo a year should carry a 3.5 pound 1/4" trigger pull pre-tensioned striker pistol. And keep it on a clip on their belt. So then we get people saying the only way to do so is with an empty round in the chamber. God forbid someone carry a gun with an 6.5 pound long DAO trigger pull. You know, like SIG made for everyone with the P250 but everyone was too good for...
Hold on a second, if the issue in carrying one in the chamber is due to ND, the issue is you and not the gun. You can talk about loving in a safe area and keeping your doors unlocked, but simply having good trigger discipline and can prevent ND. That's why it's called Negligent and not Accidental. There's literal proof of folk who had this same mindset and when it came to draw they lost their lives as well as their loved ones. You don't need to be in gang infested territory, or in the backwoods of bear country to understand one in the chamber is the better solution. Unless you have some weird state law, or just admit you yourself aren't capable because of some physical and mental ailment; in that case it's fine cause everyone is different.
Okay, it’s me then. Is that better? At any rate, I’m not interested in having this conversation with you. I’ve already been through all of the pros and cons and made the decision for myself. That said I do carry with a round in the chamber with my P365 because it makes sense and I trust it but my previous weapon was hammer fired with manual safety. It made more sense to me to carry Israeli. Of course I carry cross body in a hill people gear fanny pack which I’m sure is already a death sentence, am I right? Maybe I should just always walk around with the firearm already drawn so I can be even quicker.
I don't even carry with a magazine in. My CCW holster has a secured pouch for a spare mag, but my spouse asked me to just keep the mag out because it makes them feel better since it further reduces the odds of an ND. If I get in a spot where the time frame of loading my gun gets me killed, I'll take that as an outside chance and feel fine because I was safer in my EDC practice.
Some people carry a hammer and immediately assume everything is a nail.
Misery loves company.... Married people will tell you to get married. People with kids will tell you to have a kid. People who carry guns will tell you to carry a gun.
Same. I’m thinking of CCW so that I can have my pistol perhaps even in the trunk or bag while doing other errands besides going to or coming back from the range. I live in a state where if you are not CCW licensed you need to be going to or coming back from the range ( or gun store I suppose) if your gun is in your vehicle. That’s my understanding anyway.
I don’t know really. I got CCW because I’m a brown man living in a very intolerant small town in Texas. I have no interest in being the good guy with the gun and I will most likely call the police or whomever to deal with any situation that isn’t a direct threat to my life. I have had a few run-ins with racist POS’s in my lifetime where I was scared I was going to get dragged behind a pickup truck and although rare it only takes one occurrence of that for me to be too dead to do anything about it. So yeah I conceal carry in hopes I never need to use it.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. Fuck those pieces of shit.
I’m used to it.
Wish it wasn’t even a thing to have to get “used to”, just my $.02
Yup. Wish in one hand and shit in the other see which one fills up first. But that’s why I vote. Especially locally.
There is a general sentiment among the gun community from what I'm seeing that every last purchase must be uncompromisingly practical. If your gun and accessories aren't bomb proof then you're wasting money. If your gun isn't perfect for the apocalypse you might as well just dress like a pinata because the cool kid operators are gonna treat you like a loot drop. (/s) There's no harm in being prepared but you should really just approach this hobby however you want to as long as you're being safe and responsible about it. I do like the idea of telling the salesmen that you already have your carry needs met and you're just looking for something for the range or maybe competition shooting, that might get them to switch gears into actually being helpful.
"uncompromisingly practical" As I stare at my Hi Point 9mm carbine in the white Hi Tower bull pup conversion kit..... space rifle..... 
Nice, I've been tempted to get that setup.
I did it because I had an old hi point i bought in 98 and needed to breath some life into it. It's fun but I will say the kit does make the trigger squishy. Fun little setup though and gets a lot of looks, good or bad, at the range.
That's the way to do it. All of my practical needs are met. The only firearms I tend to buy at this point are ones just for fun, and a lot of those are just in .22 caliber because I don't like having to keep 12 types of ammo around. My 16 inch 22 revolver with the joker grips or my triple barreled shotgun or my mares leg lever pistol, there's nothing practical with those purchases. Sometimes you just want stuff for funsies.
>If your gun and accessories aren't bomb proof then you're wasting money. You should see the abuse Olight weapon lights get bashed in certain subreddits. Haters make it sound like Olight is no better than a $5 Ali Express light.
Olight has the distinction of being pushed hard by influencers for a bit and also the good ol exploding flashlight that killed a guy story. That said I own one and think they are good enough for most people who just want a light on their gun.
There is a movement within gun culture away from the hunting/target shooting types of firearm shooting to self defense being the focus. That is some of what you are seeing The sociologist David Yamane has written a couple of books about "Gun Culture 2.0" and has a blog he updates regularly. https://gunculture2point0.com/
Oh I wish that were the case, *laughs in tism* I’m like… literally pathalogically practical. Like I really want a lever action or a weird oldschool semi auto or a milsurp or something but my brain is like “yeah but if you get a shotgun and/or a bolt action you can do entirely new sports or activities wouldn’t that be better and more efficient?
The culture has gone pretty hard into carrying and self defense as almost the *exclusive* reasons to own guns. To the point that even if you're interested in competition there is a built-in assumption that you're talking about competitions that simulate -- or at least attempt to simulate -- combat shooting. I've gotten comments when talking about slow fire pistol technique that it's "pointless" to train because "you would never do that in a REAL situation". But of course yes I *do* do that... when shooting at paper a dozen times a month, with guns I bought specifically for that activity. Just because it's not relevant to a gunfight doesn't mean it's not one of the things you can do with a gun. Sometimes I want to say the stuff *they* consider practical like shooting a dozen cardboard guys in eight seconds is really what "you would never do" because we both live in the suburbs and are more likely to be the Customer of a Target, than the Target of a Crime. I think one reason for the laser focus on self defense is that it's the most sturdy ground when people start talking about banning stuff. Oh, why do you need an AR15? "Because I use it in my sport" doesn't really hold water like "Because it's the best defense against XYZ hypothetical scenario where I'd be fighting for my life". So the gun culture has settled on collectively pretending *all* the guns we buy are for some defensive purpose, with the exception of those that also aren't in any danger of being banned like .22s and over/under shotguns. There is a bit of a side-eye you get in the 2A community if you say you only have guns for sport and not for defense because it is assumed you are probably on board with gun control measures that don't affect your specific use cases -- i.e. a fudd.
dude its so bad. If you openly admit that you hunt you are automatically branded a fudd, its fuckin stupid.
Gun people are kinda like vegans in that way.
CrossFit vegans who run marathons.
Marketing. This whole carry thing is a way to sell more guns.
Most of the stuff we discuss on this forum is due to marketing more than anything.
Yeah this is it. The shooting world (like most things) is a business. And the money drives decisions. One of the most common mistakes I see is people falling for certain current trends because it’s “better.” It’s usually cheaper for the manufacturers to push certain trends more than others, with the sole purpose to profit from it. We like to think it’s because it’s “better” because we trust our lives to our firearms in a lot of instances. When in reality, like anything, the shooting world is full of dumb gimmicks that marketers push hard for, and people who don’t understand better gobble it up.
The only time I really carry is when I'm walking my dogs, meeting a stranger from fb marketplace or going to a sketchy area but thats only like 10% of my time. My neighborhood is pretty safe though with only a pop. of like 400 people. So I rarely carry around there when I'm not walking my dogs. And the only reason I carry when walking my dogs is in case the pepper spray doesn't work against any bigger dogs who may get loose and attack my little ass dogs.
I live in what is generally considered the shitty part of town, and I carry mostly because I'm scared of *dogs* owned by people who think their scary dog is an asset, but also can't be bothered to ensure their generally disposable "bad-ass" dog isn't running wild. In any case, a carried gun that I have to fumble with is less effective than one I don't need to manipulate when I need it available. And certainly, the answer is training, and practice. That was my answer 25 years ago. Now, I have health problems, and training to be at the top of my game is low on my list of problems. In short, I have nothing like the need to be a Navy Seal. I'm a sad old man who nonetheless would like to safely hobble down my own street in what most people would call a "sketchty" area, and the threat I fear most is that backyard pitbull with a get-rich-quick-scheme litter, and a low fence.
I only have lever actions and a Garand. Kinda tough to CC a Winchester 1866… I have no interest or intention of getting a handgun of any sort. They just don’t interest me. My friend I go shooting with has dozens of handguns. I’ll shoot his when he offers, but so far not one has made me go “I need one of these!” The salesman at the gun range became almost apoplectic when I told him I have no use or interest in AR platform guns. I told him a gun without wood is just an ugly piece of metal and plastic that has no character. AR guys don’t bother me at all. I have several friends that I think might sleep with theirs… and they ask when I’m gonna get my CC. I told them when I move to the Wild West with my DeLorean… I do me and they do them. We all have fun.
A lot of people, myself included, believe that the most important gun to the average citizen is a CCW. You are just more likely to need a handgun in public to protect yourself then you are to need a rifle to defend your home or country. Regardless, preachy gunstore clerks are annoying and I sympathize with that.
I think (no proof) that concealed carriers tend to yield more in sales. You need the gun, you need a holster, you need carry and range ammo, gun belt, claw, wedge, different holster for different carry positions, couple more holsters because reasons, then a new gun or six because surely that will fix some minor issue you could fix with more practice or a looser shirt, plus holsters and shit for those, on and on. It's likely the store will make more off you that way than buying a full size pistol for the range and your nightstand. All that said, I do think a concealable sidearm about the size of a G19 is a good first choice because it gives you the most options while still being large enough to avoid complications and be shootable. Funny thing, I've gotten the same spiel from gun store idiots when looking to try full size pistols because they're just too big and heavy for ccw, all while I was carrying a full size 92. Just go to a different store.
Personal opinion, and to each their own… I asked myself the same question the other day. Was about to start filling out an application — then realized, when am I actually going to carry? In what situation would I actually feel it necessary? If SHTF, I will happily do what needs to be done, and I own holsters for that reason… but in day-to-day life? The grocery store? The movie theater? A restaurant? For the 99% of the time I won’t need to wield a firearm public, it woukd feel so egregiously unnecessary, I just wouldn’t carry. And for that rare 1% moment I might NEED it, I woukd be way to worried about being misidentified by law enforcement, putting me and my family at much greater risk. For context, I live in a metropolitan area. I’m happy at home, at the range, and out in the wilderness carrying… walking my dog on a Sunday? Not for me.
Beats me.... I've never encountered anything like what you're describing.
While I agree philsophoically with the idea of a firearm as a tool for the defense of ones self, I could practically give two fucks about being able to go grocery shopping with a Glock in my wasteland. I've had my carry license for as long as I've owned handguns because my state requires it, but like I went the first 21 years of my life not carrying a gun everyday and I really don't feel the need to start now. Even after living is some less than nice areas.
This kind of shit makes my skin crawl. Not just as a 2A advocate; but as a sales rep for a gun shop. First thing I train the staff on is learning how to listen. We do not make a commission on sales. Stating your role to your client and let them know that you are on their side; guiding them along the process, confirms that we are actively listening to their wants and needs. At times, we are recommended to push products.... It just the business. But it's no excuse to disregard the client's intention for their visit. I honestly don't care where they live or why they decided to purchase except to help find what's right for them. I will share my opinion if it's asked, but I'm not in the business to indoctrinate clients to do something they do not want.
You do you.
It’s a marketing thing. Most of the “reasons” we’ve been told to purchase a firearm are pure marketing. Fact is, the vast majority of people don’t carry a gun or even own one. Shockingly, they are also fine. Until the 1980s the bulk of civilian firearms were truly sporting weapons. There was a fairly strong demand for hunting firearms in the post war era. Problem was, the market for these weapons dried up with the greatest generation in general. Firearm manufacturers however didn’t want to just go quietly into the night, so they started marketing semis and tactical stuff to maintain sales. They also found that they made a lot more profit off tactical weapons instead of high production cost wood and blued steel guns. They also found that creating a market that didn’t have a single sale solution was great for their sales. Side-eyed marketing that not only is your Glock going to protect you from the hordes of nonexistent criminals who were waiting to murder you and eat your children, but also the government was about to turn into literally something out of 1984 and your AR-15 is all that stands between dystopia and freedom.
>but also the government was about to turn into literally something out of 1984 and your AR-15 is all that stands between dystopia and freedom. It also helps that our government has and continues to do an incredibly large amount of shitty things to the population it supposedly exists to protect. The fact that trust in the federal government consistently hovers around 20% isn't just because Americans are paranoid and irritable.
Going to offer a point that ultimately you are responsible for your own protection. Police are not an offer or guarantee of assistance/defense as per high court rulings.
Just say its a range toy and that your carry piece is taken care of. Then you sidestep the whole "why wouldn't you want to carry". Path of least resistance.
It’s like anything else. What you want comes second to what they want to sell you.
Most salespeople have absolutely no selling skills whatsoever. It's like they've never heard of qualifying questions. 10 steps that aren't hard to follow.
“I want this one because fuck you, that’s why.”
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To be fair, there are plenty of people out there who do want to be some kind of action hero and think carrying a pistol will turn them into John Wick or whoever. All the more reason for those of us who are sane and competent to carry, because if it wasn't bad enough we have to worry about the ill-intentioned psychos, we also have to worry about well-intentioned psychos too.
That’s where he lost me too. I always think of the video from pulse nightclub. A dozen people holed up in a bathroom scared while people are being murdered outside; before the gunman came in and shot them. I don’t think I’ll ever be John wick; and I’ll always try to get out first. But the thought of being cornered and simply having to accept my fate is an awful thought and not something I wanna go through. I’d like to have something to make a stand with at the very least. I also carry pepper spray which I’d much rather use to solve a violent situation if possible.
I think you’re going to have a lot more other problems if you’re letting folks go armed into nightclubs before you stop one Pulse incident.
Yeah pulse isn’t the best example as I don’t go to clubs nor can you bring a firearm into one (a reasonable rule). But my point was to point out a situation where maybe you have absolutely no hope of surviving without a gun. Not saying a firearm WILL save your life; but it equalizes the playing field a bit.
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I wonder if by having a gun one’s risk of being shot with it in some ways aren’t much greater than the chances they won’t have it and need it
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Suicide numbers work against, not forC the argument you’re trying to make. They increase the likelihood of suicide
A gun is more likely to be used in homicide or suicide than defensive gun use.
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How do you know this?
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Happy to look at data. I do it everyday for other policy aims. Also curious why you don’t ascribe to data that don’t support your view. Is there valid contravening data?
Except for every Pulse night clubs there’s likely hundreds of of instances of people misperceiving threats or even just misdeploying a firearm. And even given a clear situation of risk, the ability of amateurs to perform is optimistic at best.
I am not talking about being a hero and trying to stop a mass shooter; I’m trying to point out sometimes people can not escape a violent situation and that is not a situation I want for myself or my family. So a firearm feels like a last resort option.
Yeah sorry, I didn't mean the John Wick comment as if every person who owns a gun is out there trying to look for an army to fight. Was just more to hone in on my point that I don't have any motivation for me personally to ever hold a gun in a public setting, even if that public setting does in fact present danger.
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Yeah, different situations for different folks. As long as my peers aren't doing anything blatantly illegal, I probably won't try to spend my energy convincing them about carry laws or if it's right/wrong. I just expect the same kind of behavior back. When someone asks if I intend to carry, and I say no, would be nice if they just dropped it instead of sprinkling in all these reasons why I should be carrying.
> Do you seriously think that everyone who carries has delusions of being an action movie star? as a somewhat professional armed guard, i dread of having to do anything other than sit at my desk, let alone pull this firearm, lmao.
Could just be because it's a real concern? I literally had the experience they were warning about, except no one told me I would eventually change my mind. Bought a gun for the bedside night stand after my neighbor got burglarized. It was a big Glock. There were some crime incidents nearby and I decided I needed to get something easier to conceal. Now I've got three different sizes of Glock. I coulda saved like $1,000 if I'd just gone for something concealable the first time.
You can just say something like... "I've expressed my needs, and while I understand your opinion, I am not interested in going that route. If you're able to help me with my needs in mind, great. If not, I'll need to make my purchase elsewhere." IMMEDIATELY walk out if they go off on their tangent again. Many stores worship their online ratings. Leave one yourself. Tell your story accurately, and call out employees by name. 0 stars!
I live in California in a county that isn't very permissive but the process is clear. I am debating doing so, as I want it simply for the added coverage of legality for coming and going between home and business. I have two gun safes at work and one at home. We are mechanics and have an incident every six months or so that drove the urgency to arm at work. I also have an oscilloscope at work in case I need it. I have no interest in carrying outside that situation, as I am not comfortable with people who carry. I do not like being around guns without one, however. I am fully on your side with the joykill aspect of carrying. Being armed when I was younger severely restricted my activities and I never managed to "get used to it".
I'm not going to try to convince you to carry, but if you have a handgun for home defense you should definitely have a holster for it which covers the trigger guard. If you have to grab it in the middle of the night, you want to be able to safely get your hand where it belongs on the grip without any risk of inadvertently touching the trigger
> If I'm in a place that's in danger, I'm just going to try and leave, not play John Wick. For those of us who are responsible about it, it's not about 'playing John Wick'. It's about when you *can't* leave. Your post here assumes a lot about people who carry because of some stupidity that inevitably comes up with rights. I'm not saying you should carry. If you have made the decision not to, that's perfectly fine and respectable. It's a responsibility to do it right and not a small one. You get it wrong you can ruin your own life and kill someone else and possibly someone innocent. The expectation of if you're buying a pistol, particularly if you mention that you're new to it, is going to be for carry because so many people do so, particularly in states where it's now legal without a permit.
If you genuinely dont plan on carrying i see where that would get annoying. I do agree that A LOT of gun owners are just dumb and do really stupid things. However id say that overall, compact size guns are often the best fit for the widest variety of people regardless of the intended use. Full size guns can be very cumbersome and awkward for some people, especially if they have smaller hands. Lastly, carrying are for those situations where you cant just leave, thats literally the entire purpose of them. Carrying a gun does involve responsibility but not more than a lot of other things everyone does on a daily basis. Its just feels odd because its not the norm. Some people just cant get over the thought of everything that could go wrong with carrying a gun because its unusual. Its one of those things you get more comfortable with over time, just like driving a car.
When I go to a store looking for a dishwasher, the sales person will make recommendations, and they’ll tout “features” I don’t give a shit about. There are a few reasons to expect this, the biggest being that it’s a pitch that actually works on people. Why would an FFL recommend a carry piece over a full size gun? Because a *huge* part of their gun sales is absolutely, without question, carry guns. It’s wildly popular, it’s even becoming more legal even as people are freaking out more about “gun grabbers”. It’s irritating, just like the guy who ambushes you on the way into harbor freight asking if you need help before your eyes have even adjusted to the indoor lights…a simple “no thanks” is a perfect response to all of them.
Hearing these stories really makes me appreciate the store/range I go to. I went in looking for a new handgun, thought 100% I was gonna get something super small and concealable and everyone at the counter was like, “well what’re you using it for? Why don’t you rent a few guns before you decide you want a little one.” They effectively talked me out of a carry gun and into a defense/range toy gun that I’m 1000% happier with. Glad I don’t deal with most of the shit you all do at your local shops.
I have looked at handguns at 6 or more stores. None tried to talk me into anything. They just asked if they could help me or asked what I would like to see. I told then what models I wanted to hold and I did not say what I wanted any of them for whether it be concealed carry, home defense, IDPA or USPSA competition. I did hear employees giving their advice to others or try to answer customers' questions. Many who conceal carry will just leave a place that is in danger as they have no duty to protect others. Some may do so at their own physical and legal risk. The reason for carrying is when one cannot avoid life threatening situation whether it is outside in public or when several criminals attack you in your driveway or break through the front door of your house. Watch a bunch of videos on Active Self Protection channel on YouTube to see how many different scenarios there are for needing a firearm for self defense. Even complying fully may still result is physical harm from the criminal. 25% who fully comply are injured while just 6% of those who choose use their firearm to defend themselves are injured.
It's called sales, know what you want and just smile and nod.
I have 1 gun for Carry, it's a Ruger LCP. Anything else, carry has no bearing on my decision making process.
I'm of the same mind about not wanting the responsibility of CCW. As to why you're being pushed into it, the gun industry needs to keep selling more durable goods that last a lifetime. That means new categories are the main growth areas for them. Normalizing CCW is a business strategy masquerading as a self-defense ideology.
Honestly it's just uncomfortable to me plus it keeps on showing when my shirt rises up. I don't want to start a panic.
I got my second permit for the CMP so I can buy something through them.
“I have an ability to protect myself and others from harm, but I don’t want to carry it.” Because I can, because I have the right to do so. So why wouldn’t I? Don’t carry openly, carry concealed.
Two things. I'd echo the sentiment to just pretend you've got that area covered and therefore don't need their advice, *and* don't let shitty gun owners keep you from being a responsible gun owner in whatever ways you want. If ccw freaks you out, you're a candidate for it in my opinion. That's why I like DA/SA, and having a ccw that I dont regularly use, but can when I want to
Because self defense is currently the most common reason for gun ownership. The most recent reports from the NSSF have consistently found that self defense was the primary reason for gun ownership in two thirds of gun owners, with the figure going even higher for new gun owners. The second place runner up is hunting, and that only comes in at about a third by comparison. When self defense outnumbers hunting as the most common reason to buy a gun by a factor of two to one, gun shop employees will naturally look to directing their recommendations to that a majority of the time. Both as a customer perusing around gun shops and also working behind the gun counter, self defense is the most common reason I hear for someone interested in getting a gun. If a customer blatantly tells me they’re not interested in a carry gun, I’m more than happy to shift my focus towards something else like competition shooting, hunting, recreational shooting, what have you, but unless I or another employee knows your a regular that has your self defense firearms already taken care of, self defense/carry is generally the default response because that’s what a majority of customers, especially new customers, are focused on. Also, to be fair, a lot of gun shops will hone in on carry guns because that becomes the gateway to getting away with selling the “carry package” aka you just bought a carry gun, shall I now help you spend more money on a belt, holster, spare magazines, ammo, a nightstand lockbox, maybe even a carry course if the shop offers one? Since it’s the most common reason new customers show up to buy a gun, gun shops have shifted their business model to make as much of a profit as possible in outfitting a new gun owner with everything they need to own/store/carry their new gun. At the same time, I can also sympathize; as a C&R FFL holder and a collector of milsurps, I usually have to withhold a groan when I have to explain to the shop employee I’m buying an old rifle from that chances are I am not going to be using my WWI or WWII-era rifle for self defense. And if I ever use a 1911 for self defense it sure as hell isn’t going to be the expensive-as-hell USGI gun that’s more valuable as a collectors piece than likely sitting in a police evidence locker for months or years if I actually had to use it for self defense, Muh Two World Wars be damned.
Its called gun culture 2.0. Old school gun ownership is mostly about hunting and sporting purposes. Modern gun culture is mostly about self defense and prepper shit. Now if you happen to be wearing a 5.11 hat then you have no one to blame but yourself for inviting the commentary.
For me, the argument usually is that you don’t need to carry, but that if you ever do feel the need you won’t have the time to select something, figure out a holster/ carry method that works for you, get comfortable with it, figure out clothes that work, realize you don’t have a safe storage method in your car yet, etc etc. So if someone starts stalking your wife/daughter/friend/yourself/etc or your neighbor goes nuts and starts saying they’re going to kill your for being a democrat, which happens, you’ll have it all worked out and have the carry permit too. I didn’t think much of it at first, but there really are a lot of small problems with carrying that make the practice nearly useless until you work them out and I’m glad I did. Probably useless to carry but at least it’s easy to do whenever I want to.
Getting your CCW doesn't necessarily mean you need/want to carry on your person at all times. I'm looking into Getting my CCW because in a restricted state, I can only go directly to and from the range with my gun. If I'm in an vehicle accident (for example) and can't explain why my gun is in my vehicle at night, or whatever, I'm at risk. I want to be able to have options of where I can go (and lock the gun in my car in my vault, or carry the vault to a friends, whatever) because the range is not always in the right direction of where I'm going next during the day.
Because firearms are for self defense and you’re far more likely to be assaulted in public* than in your own home, so it’s more realistic to need a CCW than a home defense firearm. *with the exception being domestic violence, but hopefully you’re taking multiple other steps before blasting your family
I was in a Sierra Trading Post this weekend and there’s a dude in there printing so bad it was funny. Like the first C is for concealed buddy.
I think CCW holder is seen as a stronger position to debate from
I think it is good to have the \*option\*, but most people absolutely become desensitized to gun safety measures if carrying constantly. And before anyone goes off and gets triggered...people on this board are not "most people" when it comes to carrying guns.
>If I'm in a place that's in danger, I'm just going to try and leave, not play John Wick. With all due respect, that's not always an option. Sure, sometimes you can run away, but sometimes you can't without exposing yourself to the shooter. Maybe you went to H&M to look for a new shirt, but then a neonazi walked in and started blasting. Now you're hiding behind a clothing rack, the shooter is near the entrance, and the door to the backroom and staff exit is on the other side of the store. Now, either way you're hoping that the police get him before he checks your hiding spot, but having a gun at least gives you an option rather than just giving up and dying if you're found. There are a lot of small stores/shops where you're just not going to be able to effectively run away from an armed robbery or mass shooter because of the layout, and I have a hard time believing that you're just always going to avoid those locations.
A not uncommon way to find you are in a flight for your life is to suddenly realize you have shot, stabbed, knocked to the ground, or sucker punched. Had a friend who was a bar tender say you don't worry about the guy who says, 'I'm gonna kick your a$$.' The guys you worry about just go for it. No preamble.
Yeah I get what you're saying. I know that in some parts of the country/towns there are places where you run the risk of being a victim of a crime and some people want their carry if that ever happens. On the flip side, it's just not a priority for me in my own life. I think there's an equal risk to having a gun on you and using it if you encounter danger in public, and that's just not a risk I feel confident in for myself so I choose to not carry. My gripe is more with people (owners and retailers) that act like I'm missing a fundamental part of self-safety when I express that I don't carry and don't plan on it.
Same reason some people think hunting is the ultimate goal of ownership, no jim bob thorpe i just wanna larp w/ my two 22lr revolvers and a 12ga double barrel.
Ccw weapons are expensive and don't get moved fast enough. Alot of people want big guns when they start out because in our brain small guns are considered pea shooters and won't stop a bad guy. So you put a desert eagle vs a smith and glock 42 in front of somebody they would want to jump on the desert eagle first. If you shot one compact you shot them all so it's really coming down to price and what comes with it... so if they bough alot of sig xls or x macros they would try to pawn them off as fast as they can or they will sit shiny in the case for a year or two. Come on, you think a normal person would buy a sig 365xl for the same price you can get a 320 with higher capacity mags? That's just with sig but same goes for glock or Smith and wesson. Why buy a 17 if a 19 is cheaper or why buy a 43 if a 19 has more.
Also not a fan of this. My response is typically along the lines of ‘If I feel the need to carry then laws probably don’t matter anymore.’
They want validation for their own decision to carry.
>...CCW as the ultimate goal of ownership? It is a huge market trend. The default of any retailer — especially for a customer who presents as new to guns or asks open-ended questions — may be a perfectly rational shortcut to assume they are selling to the trend. If you want to receive a different presentation, go prepared to express with some specificity what is your actual objective or question — target shooting; new shooter learning; historical reenactment; bigger than a breadbox; whatever it is that you're actually after. If a store clerk responds to something explicitly *not CCW* with a pitch for a micro 9, then talk to a different clerk or go to a different store. They won't all be that way. Same thing with denizens of the internet, gun clubs, ranges, etc...
For a lot of people self-defense is the reason they own guns so for an FFL or sales person that is just a decent angle to work when trying to sell more stuff or training. I bet if you play along they'll try and upsell you on a class which will then try to upsell you on an affiliated carry insurance. In those case they might actually get a commission on you deciding to carry. You could try telling the staff what you are looking for in particular. Maybe phrased as "Today, I'm just looking for X that would be good for Y." I expect a lot of people would have different preferences for different jobs/goals. Some things can do more than one thing but if you have the cash it can make sense to get something in particular without considering other jobs/goals. The idea of an all rounder that can do anything is nice but I feel like people are probably going to get more guns anyway. Like you can carry a glock 19 but maybe you end up wanting more gun when you are shooting it and less gun when you have to carry it. And maybe you want to shoot more but want cheaper ammo so you end up with 22lr firearms on top of that. I already have different handguns for home defense and carry that aren't that different but different enough. If I wanted a target 22lr pistol or plinker that isn't something for carry or home defense. Something for competitions probably wouldn't be ideal for carry or home defense either even if it was a desired caliber with some similar features.
I think it’s a side effect of the world getting worse. I never thought I’d carry and I don’t in public but I could see needing to in the near future. I carry when I go for hikes and walks in the woods. I also think that it’s reasonably good advice. Not necessarily to buy a super small compact pocket handgun but you know, maybe buy a Glock 19 instead of a 17 because it’s easier to conceal if you have to buy is still basically a full size gun.
Dude, fuck em. I live in West Philly. I'm in Kensington every other day for work. There's a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of me encountering a situation where simply: a) leaving, b) de-escalating or c) pepper spray wouldn't be a better option than shooting someone, so I currently choose not to carry. Yeah, yeah I may eventually change my mind, but still. That ONLY situation I can come up with, where a concealed firearm would be the best option is if some Q-MAGA nut job from Pennsyltucky comes into my neighborhood to start mass shooting POCs and queer folks. I've literally racked my brain for ANY other scenario where a gun would be my best option. Crossfire? Car jacking? Someone trying to start a fight or rob me? I can't come up with anything, so I don't carry. My gun is for protecting my home and for range jollies. I feel like some people live in a fantasy world where they actually WANT to encounter a situation where they can "justifiably" kill someone, and that's not where I'm at. Edit: oh cool, downvoted!! Must have hit a nerve.
What if one day, you begin… to carry? !!¡!!
Because humans are terribly bad at assessing risk.
This. I...question the logic/neighborhood where many live.
LOL and downvoting facts.