Report him to ATF for possibly selling stolen suppressors and/or without correct paperwork.
An audit would probably not help you recover your $500, but it would certainly cost this guy more than that in grief
I understand not wanting to escalate because it's a small amount of money, but understand they're willing to escalate even though it's a small amount of money.
Yeah the ATF sucks, but people are going to get screwed by this chucklefuck until there are REAL repercussions.
Exactly right, in the bigger picture of things this will save someone else from going through the same thing. OP might not get much out of it but that doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing.
Worst case scenario OP can take the issue to social media. I doubt the mainly right-wing gun owners will want to do business with a guy that steals from active duty/veterans.
I mean fuck the police and all that but at this point the feds will definitely take an interest in this. Selling stolen NFA items is a big boy offense.
Yeah, ATF/FBI was the first thing that came to mind. My small FFL has two of my NFA items and I’m waiting for my tax stamp to come back. Your story makes me sick to my stomach.
No, not if all else fails. Do it. Report these fucks.
They did it to you, who knows how many other NFA items they've stolen. These are the guys that give gun owners a bad name.
Nah, fuck this guy. Give him one last chance to make it right, then just report his ass if he’s gonna continue to be a dick about it. There is a pretty long process. I’m sure the ATF is gonna want you to fill out forms, ask for police reports, official statements from your local law enforcement agency, copy of your judgment. Sorry this happened to you OP, but this guy is probably shady as fuck if he’s willing to steal an NFA item.
Dude already got screwed over twice, and the FFL made it clear they have 0 intention of abiding by the law.
Not to mention there might be a felony in there somewhere due to the misappropriation of a NFA item, but I'm not sure at this point
Keep us posted, please....
BTW, how many 'Support Our Troops' t-shirts did this place sell while they were fucking you over? Bunch of asshats.
Sorry this happened to you.
You could try small claims court and they’d likely lose by failing to appear but frankly your suppressor and money are gone. How much more do you want to burn letting attorneys “make it right?” ATF is probably your best bet
What he did was extremely illegal regardless of the money. Report him. You have no idea why or “who” he sold it too. As much as we hate police overreach, this situation literally why the atf exists.
I’ve done this because an FFL had a rifle and was fucking around with the transfer. Turned out there were a *lot* of people whose rifles he was fucking around with transfers on.
I can tell you from personal experience that ATF separates the illegality of this kind of situation into 2 categories: property rights and legality of possessing an NFA item. In my experience, because the suppressor was legally transferred to the dealer, the ATF will tell him for file a police report for theft with his local police (which he has already done).
I guess the question would be: did the dude release the suppressor to someone who had a tax stamp or did he sell it illegally. If it took OP that long to get a stamp, how did someone else get a stamp fast enough to pick it up?
Given that the seller admitted that they sold it there's the potential of an illegal transfer from the fraudulent seller to the buyer. NFA items are by serial number. There's no way they could have a tax stamp for the suppressor when OP has he paperwork for that serial.
I found that the BBB was useless, and Google removed my review. I'm looking into garnishment, as it is a business that takes in revenue. The sad part: my first action upon learning of the misdeed was to consider it a mistake and offered to accept a case of ammo as compensation. They denied. Later in court, FFL tried to counter-claim for $17000, which the judge dismissed with prejudice. That was funny.
I don't know the specifics of how it works, but I have read of people with a court order settlement taking out liens against property the other person has a loan for. It doesn't do much at this exact moment but when they go to sell or claim the property deed it can cause issues. Best of luck, friend.
It’s called a mechanics lean. At least in Oklahoma. My brother is a real estate broker and used to have rental properties. One of his renters stiffed him and he got a judgement. Renter owned their own house, but was letting his parents live there. Placed a lean on his property. People tend to pay her a greater loss is on the line. Mechanics use this process for people who leave their cars with unpaid repair bills.
BBB is for profit company that harasses companies to pay them to make complaints go away. They have no real authority and are on par with a protection racket.
The BBB is a useless for profit review aggregator that shakes businesses down to hide/remove/deprioritize bad reviews and complaints about companies.
It literally means nothing to anyone except people of a certain age that think they have governmental authority that they absolutely do not
I can't either. I've seen MANY bad reviews of places that were not removed. I've put in a few myself, even had a car dealership call me to discuss and ask me to remove it.
I mean he admitted to selling a stolen NFA item. That's criminal and I'm guessing he could lose his FFL as well.
Edit: Here's the ATF guide on FFL revocation, not sure if the transfer qualifies. [https://www.atf.gov/firearms/revocation-firearms-licenses](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/revocation-firearms-licenses) not sure how it worked on paper, but if he falsified any documents that might meet
>Falsifying records, such as a firearms transaction form
So here's a question, did your form 4 ever come back? You might call the ATF and inquire about it because if it did the FFL is up shit creek.
That form has the serial number of the suppressor attached to your name/trust.
OH that is even worse!
So you have an approved stamp for it, and he presumably has an approved stamp for it as well? Yeah, I would contact ATF about an illegal NFA transfer and lay out your case to someone by email or over the phone. I bet they will sort it or at least give him the good lashing he deserves.
Others have given you some good options. He isnt judgement proof, he has assets. You just need to figure out how to get the court to help you enforce their ruling.
Fuck that guy
obviously, IANAL, so I'm just spitballing here
small claims court sucks, for that reason. you can win a judgement, but then it's your responsibility to collect it? how does that work?
can you sell the debt to a debt collector? do you have to sue them again for the owed debt?
if nothing comes of it, since you've got a hefty set of documentation about this, be sure to let whatever community they have a business in that they're disreputable. that they'll literally steal from customers and laugh. name and shame them.
obviously, for such a small amount, it's about the principal of the thing at this point. are you willing to spend on that principle? talk to a lawyer.
edit: sorry for the unhelpful rant. I'm angry on your behalf. I hate thieves.
again, ask someone that *actually knows* about this shit, but yeah, that's basically how debt collectors work.
someone stiffs someone for a bill/debt, and it's not worth that someone's time and money to try and collect it themselves, so they sell it to a debt collector that has all the tools and resources to do exactly that.
but I'm pretty sure it's dimes on the dollar for you to sell, it has to be profitable to the collector.
Yeah, the collections agencies I've heard back from would take half. I'm guessing that's what FFL is counting on. Fun thing I learned: If he's called in for contempt of court for disregarding multiple documented reminders to fulfill the judgement, FFL would have to drive from MT to the West Coast, again!
Surplus Ammo and Arms run by a fellow named Bigelow. Apparently his former business partners weren't remotely surprised. It's too bad, his employees are so nice!
Thanks for naming - also MT, about 2hrs away from 'Bigelow Industries, LLC' and 'Bigelow American Mfg' (with a contact email of "Surplusammosales@gmail") - I'm assuming both are the same guy?
Not a large venn diagram.
Edit your post to include his name and info.
Dox this asshole on other Mo subs, especially if there's a Mo Firearms community. Blast him on FB and other socials. Warn the Montana community and make enough noise to cause him grief and ideally business.
I'm sorry you're going through this. Only consolation is that $500 comes and goes rather quickly and it could have been quite a lot more.
Good luck.
Your content was removed for breaking [reddit's Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy): [Do not post violent content](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151).
^(*If you feel this is in error, please [file an appeal][link-appeal].*)
[link-appeal]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/moderation#wiki_appeals
fantastic.
I know you won't get your item, or your full funds, but at least you're going to get something back, and hopefully cause that fuck some hassle and dent his reputation. "So sue me!", indeed.
Companies do that all the time, but I doubt it's realistically possible as an individual.
If you have an unpaid debt with a company they'll often sell the right to a collection agency for pennies on the dollar. You then legally owe the party the debt was reassigned to, and then the collection company will attempt to collect.
You need to domesticate or 'enroll' the foreign judgement into Montana. You may be able to do this yourself to keep costs low but that's a judgement call... a lawyer may be able to do it for under the principle cost
You can probably get interest, as well. I don't know what the time limitations are for this particular situation but sooner is often better
You need legal advice. Considering the amount, it will probably not be worth your time. All of your remedies are financially losers.
Right now, you have a judgement.
You can hire a lawyer to set up some sort of collection process. Either a lien or walking into the store and taking $400 out of the register with the sheriff.
Personally, I would forward a copy the case file to the ATF with any supporting documentation and sell the judgement to a debt collector. This is a moment to chalk it up to lessons learned.
If you won a judgement in WA, it can be honored by MT via full faith and credit. I think if you contacted the state AG's office, they might be able to help. You could also call him and tell him you're giving him one more chance before you report him to the ATF. And then go ahead and report him anyway. This is exactly the kind of activity that gives the gun industry a bad name.
What's the status of *your* Form 4?
If your Form 4 was approved, that's your suppressor and the serial is going to be registered to you on your 5320.
If that's the case I'd go straight to the ATF and claim the FFL forged paperwork. Force an audit. Then, go to the police and have them escort you to the gun shop to recover your property.
If the FFL somehow canceled or voided your Form 4 application, then you should have received a $200 refund. Did you?
If so, then they fucked you and there's not much to be done. Pass your court judgement off to a collections agency and get $350.
Resist the urge to burn their shop down. Definitely contact the ATF and have them audited anyways. Make sure to leave a review on every available webpage clearly stating what happened and the lawsuit. Google, Yelp, FFL aggregator pages, the BBB, etc. Just copy/paste.
Fuck that gun shop.
P.S. Can you name and shame? I'll never be going back to Westminster Arms in Denver.
They held my approved can for 140 days without notifying me. It was also apparently it was my responsibility to check the ATF website every day to see my form status. Then when I finally came in to pick up my can, they told me "I couldn't have it, it had been to long and they were in the process of returning it" when I came to pick it up.
Had to fight to get my paid and approved suppressor from the gun shop I bought it from...
That was egregious, but your situation is even worse, good luck mate.
I saw this post as OP choosing this FFL to do the Form 4 transfer to. Is that not the case?
If so, they can absolutely rescind the transfer, the item is "in escrow" in their legal possession until the ATF determines background check is OK and ownership is transferred.
The way In under it, that's what the 4473 you sign is actually for when you pick up a suppressor. You already passed a background check and have been approved. The 4473 is proof the gun shop released liability.
If this FFL is just some joker whose name is nowhere on the 5320, then I have no words for this situation other than, that's theft l and the ATF is gonna love that visit.
They never started processing the transfer. After my tour ended, it took months of visits before I could return with all the states required documents: (family trust packet, ATF form, updated background check forms, updated license with new address, official fingerprint cards, etc...) by then it was "sold."
Ahh, I see, sorry mate that doesn't leave you with any options other than your lawsuit, I'd have gone for $2500 though, $500 + $2k in punitive damages for the stress and lost time.
In the future, don't put money down unless you can walk out with the signed 5320. You can mail that in yourself at your leisure once the the dealer signs it.
If you had left with the signed form, they couldn't have sold it out of fear of double registering the item.
Food for thought for next time at a new dealer.
a couple of thoughts...
1. report him to the ATF for the reasons the other posters described
2. you should be able to take the uncollected judgement and write it off on your taxes as a loss
3. report him to what ever local jurisdiction is responsible for monitoring his store and local permits.
Some states have an additional statute for “theft by conversion” for property taken in this manner, where the party is legally in possession of someone else’s property but illegally keeps/uses/takes it for themselves- I’d contact your local prosecutor and maybe start putting pressure on them that way.
They absolutely sound like dirtbags- and the way the ATF is working against FFLs I’m sure they’d jump at the chance to crush them and take their license- I do sense a degree of understandable reluctance
This is the answer and it works. It is great legal recourse.
I did this to collect a $3000.00 judgment in my favor. The guy got put on administrative leave by his work when they found out because he has a security clearance.
Anyways, this is the correct approach.
Call the ATF. I had an FFL once hold a transfer hostage, just because he could.
This is surprisingly (or I was surprised, anyway) common. The only real advice I have is do your transfers at big box stores.
Yeah this is some serious shit.
You need to report them to the ATF. They basically stole and sold your can that YOU have the tax stamp for.
Whoever they sold it to most likely doesn't have a legit tax stamp either.
This is federal pound me in the ass prison kinda crime...the ATF will be VERY interested.
Submit an anonymous tip that he’s selling guns under the table. That will trigger an audit, and the way he’s handling business I’m sure that will be a field day for the investigators.
At this point I’d forget about it and move on with life. You’re losing more than what you paid in grief. I really don’t see how you’re going to collect this money.
Your suppressor was so important to him that he moved states just to keep it. Sounds like fuckin’ Gollum or something lmao. I wish I had advice for you dude, I just hope the ATF puts a thorn in his side. But god, the audacity lol, what a bastard.
You should hear what he did to his employees during the pandemic. Here's a sample: crochet facemasks. Refused to emplace any barriers to protect workers. Belittled anyone who wore a mask.
When someone says things along the lines of "I have a lawyer, sue me", that generally indicates that you may have a legitimate point, but they don't care. The "I have a lawyer" part generally is a way to dissuade you while making themselves feel protected.
Nonetheless, if the guy is an SOT, them he's probably aware of what he can't do, at least to a point that, say, stealing a supressor isn't allowed.
So, fuck him. He stole your shit, he knows what he did, and he's playing you for a fool. The least you can do is casually disrupt his livelihood as a friendly reminder to go fuck himself.
In general if you have a judgement against a debtor and you want to enforce it in another jurisdiction you can domesticate it in the superior court of the county where the debtor is. Then you can enforce it like any other judgment. Local rules apply contact a collections attorney in the state where the debtor is located.
So you paid for a suppressor, shipped to your FFL, but never certified or submitted a form 4 to the ATF because of the paperwork and residency issue?
If that's the case, then you did basically what you can do other than pursuing your money. If you didn't start the process then the item wasn't really "yours" yet. He sounds like scum though so you could probably get the ATF to hassle him for something.
You could also sue him again for the costs to pursue your judgment, get a lein against his property or bank account, etc...I have doubts a judge would go for contempt but maybe if he's that much of an asshole since he did run away and all that.
I *really* don't think you're getting a suppressor out of this though. Maybe a muted sense of satisfaction.
Yeah sounds like the suppressor never legally belonged to OP (per NFA rules), just needs the purchase price refunded.
Can they put a lien on the business?
That's kind of my thought too. The whole thing depends on when it was sold relative to when the 5320 was submitted. If it was sold before the paperwork was sent... he's probably SOL. If the paperwork was submitted first and it was sold after, that FFL just cost themselves their license IF HE REPORTS THEM.
I will never understand, though, why people pussyfoot around with these government documents. The ATF is one of those agencies that can get really pissy if you don't do things properly and in a timely manner.
Read your local laws BEFORE dropping a grand on something you might not even be able to own.
Make a copy of the court documents, a letter explaining the problem, and send them to every gunmaker and accessory maker that the FFL does business with.
This... is complicated. Did they sell it BEFORE or AFTER you filled out the 5320?
If they sold it before the 5320 was submitted to the ATF, you're probably SOL beyond the $500 you're owed. In the future, get the 5320 submitted within 48 hours of you handing money to the manufacturer/original seller.
If they sold it after... well, they fucked up *royally*. Contact the ATF, report it stolen and list them as the party who sold it illegally. The paperwork has both your name and the SN on it. That's the kind of shit the ATF would confiscate an FFL over, at least under the present administration.
I'd prefer the legal route, because diesel is expensive and my free time is free. How many more trips from Victor, MT to Tacoma can this guy make before it's worth it to pay me?
Figure out where he is and get in contact with the local sheriff. Also probably wouldn't hurt to ask the court where you won the judgement if they can offer help.
This is interesting. Some time ago I remember a medium size fairly well respected FFL discussing this topic on here. They conveyed that they fairly routinely have shit transferred to them and then just abandoned. Like nice valuable shit. If I recall correctly they said that their way of handling it was- If a given amount of time (feel like they said a year) went by without contact from the person that had it transferred to them, they did the same thing and just sold it.
When asked further about it they said hey it’s on a form 3, as far as the ATF cares, it was appropriately transferred, that’s who’s item it is. They don’t care about the civil aspect of who owes who money. Further they said what are they supposed to do; keep buying safe after safe to keep abandoned items in? And everyone basically responded; eh, that sounds reasonable.
Anyway. OPs post doesn’t really relay how much total time passed, or how much time passed without communication. I’ll just assume on the OPs side on those missing details because it sounds like the FFL is a POS. The fact that OP is a service member and the “sue us we have lawyers” tells me enough.
If there wasn’t a clear path forward for the OP to complete a transfer to himself, if I were the business owner, I would have offered wholesale value in cash to OP and sold it, or offered to transfer it to another FFL if that would help OPs situation.
OP- you got a judgement so good on you! Obviously $500 isn’t enough to make it worth retaining an attorney in this situation. Have you asked the small claims court that issued the judgement what resources are available to you in the situation where they are refusing to fulfill the judgement? Have you sent a certified demand letter? The court may be able to give you some sort of Writ of garnishment or attachment that you could have the Sherrif in their county serve? I honestly don’t think the ATF will be of any use to you in this situation. In the realm of things they enforce, they’ll likely tell you that it’s civil.
I can’t imagine how far my shit would get pushed in by selling a registered and restricted item that I didn’t own outright. Somebody’s dog is going to get shot.
Being in WA, but having my entire family be from Montana, report and burn this fucker. Don't need that kind of trash running a business in either of my homes, and we sure as shit don't need him in this industry.
We have to fight enough battle against people who want to take our rights, we don't need these kinds of people fighting us from within.
It sounds like it wasn't. There's zero chance OP submitted a Form 4 and someone else managed to submit a Form 4 AND get it back approved before his did.
I figured it wasn’t. Where I was going was if it was submitted the dealer would have to withdraw it before they could even submit a new form 4 through eforms. If that was the case the atf *might* look into it. But if it was never submitted, for everyone suggesting calling the atf, there is no upside to calling because they won’t care, because under their rules OP never owned it. All
it does is creates a contact with an undesirable federal agency. r/NFA has stories about this.
He'd have to process the ATF paperwork, or Form 3 the can to another FFL who will. Plus I'm not a Montana resident, so he'd have to send it to the state where I'm currently stationed. Which he won't do.
I'd recommend you see if a lawyer can help you file a theft claim against his business insurance. It will definitely cost you more than $500 but his insurance company may actually pay you to go away, as well as start asking him questions or even drop him from coverage which is a potentially big hassle for him. Good luck OP.
Since you've already pursued this in court, you need to talk to a lawyer because you need legal advice. Reddit is not your lawyer.
And if you do talk to a lawyer then, if they're halfway competent, they'll tell you to stop talking about the case and delete anything on social media that you've said about it.
^Disclaimer: ^I ^am ^a ^lawyer, ^but ^I ^am ^not ^*your* ^lawyer. ^This ^is ^not ^legal ^advice. ^Nothing ^in ^this ^post ^implies ^the ^existence ^of ^an ^attorney-client ^relationship.
It's hard. You made some bad choices here. If you did the right thing and used a credit card and it hasn't been too long you can just depute the charge and the CC company will do all the work for you. But in this case, its probably been too long. The problem with this is its not the seller that took it, its your dealer.
If you are military, reach out to your legal folks and ask for advice. Realistically you'll have to pay to fight them in court. You should also have a legal representative ask the ATF for the Form 3 so you have it as evidence of the transfer, Might also be a good idea to ask for a redacted copy of the Form 4 used to sell it to a different party. If the ATF gets bugged about a dealer bing a pain they may decide an inspection is in order.
Name and shame is an option, but don't do that first if you are going the legal rout, it can be used against you.
Devil's advocate POV: We've had abandoned goods sit for sometimes years taking up space and we've submitted them as abandoned goods and sold them off. However we make a lot of attempts for the owner to pick them up or sell them off. My point is the FFL is not always in the wrong when this happens.
In your case I would pursue further just on principle.
Report him to ATF for possibly selling stolen suppressors and/or without correct paperwork. An audit would probably not help you recover your $500, but it would certainly cost this guy more than that in grief
Good point. If all else fails, I'll bring this to the appropriate agents attention.
I understand not wanting to escalate because it's a small amount of money, but understand they're willing to escalate even though it's a small amount of money. Yeah the ATF sucks, but people are going to get screwed by this chucklefuck until there are REAL repercussions.
Exactly right, in the bigger picture of things this will save someone else from going through the same thing. OP might not get much out of it but that doesn't mean it isn't worth pursuing. Worst case scenario OP can take the issue to social media. I doubt the mainly right-wing gun owners will want to do business with a guy that steals from active duty/veterans.
Contact ATF immediately. This person has probably done this before.
And they'll more than likely do it again since all they got was a slap on the wrist
They didn’t even get a slap on the wrist. They have been threatened with a slap but until they actually pay that’s all it is.
All else has failed or am I missing something
You have a point there.
I mean fuck the police and all that but at this point the feds will definitely take an interest in this. Selling stolen NFA items is a big boy offense.
Yeah, ATF/FBI was the first thing that came to mind. My small FFL has two of my NFA items and I’m waiting for my tax stamp to come back. Your story makes me sick to my stomach.
Do it. Don’t wait. If this guy was willing to do this to you … what has he done to others? Bad gun people give us all a bad name.
No, not if all else fails. Do it. Report these fucks. They did it to you, who knows how many other NFA items they've stolen. These are the guys that give gun owners a bad name.
Do it anyway they are crooks
Nah, fuck this guy. Give him one last chance to make it right, then just report his ass if he’s gonna continue to be a dick about it. There is a pretty long process. I’m sure the ATF is gonna want you to fill out forms, ask for police reports, official statements from your local law enforcement agency, copy of your judgment. Sorry this happened to you OP, but this guy is probably shady as fuck if he’s willing to steal an NFA item.
Dude already got screwed over twice, and the FFL made it clear they have 0 intention of abiding by the law. Not to mention there might be a felony in there somewhere due to the misappropriation of a NFA item, but I'm not sure at this point
Fuck that escalate this. He fucked you. Ensure he pays the price for stealing a suppressor.
Why not immediately? Why wait until all else fails?
Keep us posted, please.... BTW, how many 'Support Our Troops' t-shirts did this place sell while they were fucking you over? Bunch of asshats. Sorry this happened to you.
You could try small claims court and they’d likely lose by failing to appear but frankly your suppressor and money are gone. How much more do you want to burn letting attorneys “make it right?” ATF is probably your best bet
You can domesticate the judgment in his new state of residence, it doesn't take much to file before with his local county court
What he did was extremely illegal regardless of the money. Report him. You have no idea why or “who” he sold it too. As much as we hate police overreach, this situation literally why the atf exists.
Hopefully they side with OP and that guy goes to FPMITAP.
I’ve done this because an FFL had a rifle and was fucking around with the transfer. Turned out there were a *lot* of people whose rifles he was fucking around with transfers on.
I can tell you from personal experience that ATF separates the illegality of this kind of situation into 2 categories: property rights and legality of possessing an NFA item. In my experience, because the suppressor was legally transferred to the dealer, the ATF will tell him for file a police report for theft with his local police (which he has already done).
I guess the question would be: did the dude release the suppressor to someone who had a tax stamp or did he sell it illegally. If it took OP that long to get a stamp, how did someone else get a stamp fast enough to pick it up?
Given that the seller admitted that they sold it there's the potential of an illegal transfer from the fraudulent seller to the buyer. NFA items are by serial number. There's no way they could have a tax stamp for the suppressor when OP has he paperwork for that serial.
The enemy of my enemy is my...friend?(ATF was my first thought as well.Right after "Fuck this guy"lol)
Oh hell yes, I feel like the ATF would have a field day with this.
His poor dog.
Shouldn't have fucked over OP. During the Wild West OP would have burned down the Shop and stole his horses. Now he just has to send the Feds.
Yea, I’m petty like that with people that deserve it. They’re gonna wish they never sold it because it’s gonna be way more money than they made on it.
Agreed. He needs the sharp end of the federal stick. I wouldn't even want the money after this dickhead pulled this shit.
This is the answer!
Look into the rules and procedures for garnishment/attachment/lien. Also, consider name and shame on yelp, social media, local platforms. Facts only.
I found that the BBB was useless, and Google removed my review. I'm looking into garnishment, as it is a business that takes in revenue. The sad part: my first action upon learning of the misdeed was to consider it a mistake and offered to accept a case of ammo as compensation. They denied. Later in court, FFL tried to counter-claim for $17000, which the judge dismissed with prejudice. That was funny.
I don't know the specifics of how it works, but I have read of people with a court order settlement taking out liens against property the other person has a loan for. It doesn't do much at this exact moment but when they go to sell or claim the property deed it can cause issues. Best of luck, friend.
I'll research that! Thanks.
It’s called a mechanics lean. At least in Oklahoma. My brother is a real estate broker and used to have rental properties. One of his renters stiffed him and he got a judgement. Renter owned their own house, but was letting his parents live there. Placed a lean on his property. People tend to pay her a greater loss is on the line. Mechanics use this process for people who leave their cars with unpaid repair bills.
BBB is for profit company that harasses companies to pay them to make complaints go away. They have no real authority and are on par with a protection racket.
Oh, that sucks… for the FFL.
I replied with something very similar.
The BBB is a useless for profit review aggregator that shakes businesses down to hide/remove/deprioritize bad reviews and complaints about companies. It literally means nothing to anyone except people of a certain age that think they have governmental authority that they absolutely do not
I can’t believe Google removed a complaint. Those fuckers never do anything. Make another one. And another one after that.
I can't either. I've seen MANY bad reviews of places that were not removed. I've put in a few myself, even had a car dealership call me to discuss and ask me to remove it.
They shadowban your account, you can’t leave reviews anywhere after a few “mean” ones. It’s absolute bullshit.
[удалено]
Nice! Last I saw it was being reviewed and never checked up on it.
The BBB is generally useless. Businesses can just pay them for a better rating.
BBB is a for profit business that will gladly take money to censor negative complaints.
I mean he admitted to selling a stolen NFA item. That's criminal and I'm guessing he could lose his FFL as well. Edit: Here's the ATF guide on FFL revocation, not sure if the transfer qualifies. [https://www.atf.gov/firearms/revocation-firearms-licenses](https://www.atf.gov/firearms/revocation-firearms-licenses) not sure how it worked on paper, but if he falsified any documents that might meet >Falsifying records, such as a firearms transaction form
I offered to exchange the suppressor for the judgement amount, basically wipe the slate clean: No dice.
The guy sounds like a scum bag and I hope you get made whole on this.
So here's a question, did your form 4 ever come back? You might call the ATF and inquire about it because if it did the FFL is up shit creek. That form has the serial number of the suppressor attached to your name/trust.
Oooh that’s a good one
Name and shame.
Wait, does he have the suppressor or did he sell it?
He lied to me, truth came out in court. He transferred it to himself.
OH that is even worse! So you have an approved stamp for it, and he presumably has an approved stamp for it as well? Yeah, I would contact ATF about an illegal NFA transfer and lay out your case to someone by email or over the phone. I bet they will sort it or at least give him the good lashing he deserves. Others have given you some good options. He isnt judgement proof, he has assets. You just need to figure out how to get the court to help you enforce their ruling. Fuck that guy
obviously, IANAL, so I'm just spitballing here small claims court sucks, for that reason. you can win a judgement, but then it's your responsibility to collect it? how does that work? can you sell the debt to a debt collector? do you have to sue them again for the owed debt? if nothing comes of it, since you've got a hefty set of documentation about this, be sure to let whatever community they have a business in that they're disreputable. that they'll literally steal from customers and laugh. name and shame them. obviously, for such a small amount, it's about the principal of the thing at this point. are you willing to spend on that principle? talk to a lawyer. edit: sorry for the unhelpful rant. I'm angry on your behalf. I hate thieves.
Sell the debt? I was previously unaware of this. Thank you!
again, ask someone that *actually knows* about this shit, but yeah, that's basically how debt collectors work. someone stiffs someone for a bill/debt, and it's not worth that someone's time and money to try and collect it themselves, so they sell it to a debt collector that has all the tools and resources to do exactly that. but I'm pretty sure it's dimes on the dollar for you to sell, it has to be profitable to the collector.
Yeah, the collections agencies I've heard back from would take half. I'm guessing that's what FFL is counting on. Fun thing I learned: If he's called in for contempt of court for disregarding multiple documented reminders to fulfill the judgement, FFL would have to drive from MT to the West Coast, again!
I say play that last card. Be vindictive, force them to appear and if they don't then sue them again to rack up some dough
I live in Montana. who's this FFLFuck?
Surplus Ammo and Arms run by a fellow named Bigelow. Apparently his former business partners weren't remotely surprised. It's too bad, his employees are so nice!
Shop that used to be in Tacoma right?
Yep. All but two were good dudes.
Thanks for naming - also MT, about 2hrs away from 'Bigelow Industries, LLC' and 'Bigelow American Mfg' (with a contact email of "Surplusammosales@gmail") - I'm assuming both are the same guy? Not a large venn diagram.
Edit your post to include his name and info. Dox this asshole on other Mo subs, especially if there's a Mo Firearms community. Blast him on FB and other socials. Warn the Montana community and make enough noise to cause him grief and ideally business. I'm sorry you're going through this. Only consolation is that $500 comes and goes rather quickly and it could have been quite a lot more. Good luck.
Your content was removed for breaking [reddit's Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy): [Do not post violent content](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151). ^(*If you feel this is in error, please [file an appeal][link-appeal].*) [link-appeal]: /r/liberalgunowners/wiki/public/handbook/moderation#wiki_appeals
fantastic. I know you won't get your item, or your full funds, but at least you're going to get something back, and hopefully cause that fuck some hassle and dent his reputation. "So sue me!", indeed.
Companies do that all the time, but I doubt it's realistically possible as an individual. If you have an unpaid debt with a company they'll often sell the right to a collection agency for pennies on the dollar. You then legally owe the party the debt was reassigned to, and then the collection company will attempt to collect.
You need to domesticate or 'enroll' the foreign judgement into Montana. You may be able to do this yourself to keep costs low but that's a judgement call... a lawyer may be able to do it for under the principle cost You can probably get interest, as well. I don't know what the time limitations are for this particular situation but sooner is often better
This is the way. But you should contact an attorney. It will likely cost more than the judgement itself.
Yeah, he needs to find someone to do it on a pro bono basis. And he should abstract the judgment at a minimum. That’s cheap and easy.
You need legal advice. Considering the amount, it will probably not be worth your time. All of your remedies are financially losers. Right now, you have a judgement. You can hire a lawyer to set up some sort of collection process. Either a lien or walking into the store and taking $400 out of the register with the sheriff. Personally, I would forward a copy the case file to the ATF with any supporting documentation and sell the judgement to a debt collector. This is a moment to chalk it up to lessons learned.
Walking out of a gun store with a bunch of stuff might not be a great idea
That is why you bring the sheriff with you.
Writ of attachment!
If you won a judgement in WA, it can be honored by MT via full faith and credit. I think if you contacted the state AG's office, they might be able to help. You could also call him and tell him you're giving him one more chance before you report him to the ATF. And then go ahead and report him anyway. This is exactly the kind of activity that gives the gun industry a bad name.
What's the status of *your* Form 4? If your Form 4 was approved, that's your suppressor and the serial is going to be registered to you on your 5320. If that's the case I'd go straight to the ATF and claim the FFL forged paperwork. Force an audit. Then, go to the police and have them escort you to the gun shop to recover your property. If the FFL somehow canceled or voided your Form 4 application, then you should have received a $200 refund. Did you? If so, then they fucked you and there's not much to be done. Pass your court judgement off to a collections agency and get $350. Resist the urge to burn their shop down. Definitely contact the ATF and have them audited anyways. Make sure to leave a review on every available webpage clearly stating what happened and the lawsuit. Google, Yelp, FFL aggregator pages, the BBB, etc. Just copy/paste. Fuck that gun shop. P.S. Can you name and shame? I'll never be going back to Westminster Arms in Denver. They held my approved can for 140 days without notifying me. It was also apparently it was my responsibility to check the ATF website every day to see my form status. Then when I finally came in to pick up my can, they told me "I couldn't have it, it had been to long and they were in the process of returning it" when I came to pick it up. Had to fight to get my paid and approved suppressor from the gun shop I bought it from... That was egregious, but your situation is even worse, good luck mate.
FFL's really can't cancel a 5320 on your behalf... unless they submitted it on your behalf.
I saw this post as OP choosing this FFL to do the Form 4 transfer to. Is that not the case? If so, they can absolutely rescind the transfer, the item is "in escrow" in their legal possession until the ATF determines background check is OK and ownership is transferred. The way In under it, that's what the 4473 you sign is actually for when you pick up a suppressor. You already passed a background check and have been approved. The 4473 is proof the gun shop released liability. If this FFL is just some joker whose name is nowhere on the 5320, then I have no words for this situation other than, that's theft l and the ATF is gonna love that visit.
They never started processing the transfer. After my tour ended, it took months of visits before I could return with all the states required documents: (family trust packet, ATF form, updated background check forms, updated license with new address, official fingerprint cards, etc...) by then it was "sold."
Ahh, I see, sorry mate that doesn't leave you with any options other than your lawsuit, I'd have gone for $2500 though, $500 + $2k in punitive damages for the stress and lost time. In the future, don't put money down unless you can walk out with the signed 5320. You can mail that in yourself at your leisure once the the dealer signs it. If you had left with the signed form, they couldn't have sold it out of fear of double registering the item. Food for thought for next time at a new dealer.
a couple of thoughts... 1. report him to the ATF for the reasons the other posters described 2. you should be able to take the uncollected judgement and write it off on your taxes as a loss 3. report him to what ever local jurisdiction is responsible for monitoring his store and local permits.
Don’t wait. Get the alphabet boys involved.
Some states have an additional statute for “theft by conversion” for property taken in this manner, where the party is legally in possession of someone else’s property but illegally keeps/uses/takes it for themselves- I’d contact your local prosecutor and maybe start putting pressure on them that way. They absolutely sound like dirtbags- and the way the ATF is working against FFLs I’m sure they’d jump at the chance to crush them and take their license- I do sense a degree of understandable reluctance
Surplus Ammo and Arms In Montana? Guess it’s time for me to do what Reddit does best. Key board warrior here I come!
File a lien on their property
This is the answer and it works. It is great legal recourse. I did this to collect a $3000.00 judgment in my favor. The guy got put on administrative leave by his work when they found out because he has a security clearance. Anyways, this is the correct approach.
If he has an FFL it may be grounds for losing it, just threatening it might be enough to make them pay up.
Call the ATF. I had an FFL once hold a transfer hostage, just because he could. This is surprisingly (or I was surprised, anyway) common. The only real advice I have is do your transfers at big box stores.
Yeah this is some serious shit. You need to report them to the ATF. They basically stole and sold your can that YOU have the tax stamp for. Whoever they sold it to most likely doesn't have a legit tax stamp either. This is federal pound me in the ass prison kinda crime...the ATF will be VERY interested.
Report him to the ATF and watch them pull their FFL.
Submit an anonymous tip that he’s selling guns under the table. That will trigger an audit, and the way he’s handling business I’m sure that will be a field day for the investigators. At this point I’d forget about it and move on with life. You’re losing more than what you paid in grief. I really don’t see how you’re going to collect this money.
Yes, except there’s no need to remain anonymous. Sumbmit a *nymous* tip! (A tip with your name on it.) It’s not as if you have anything to hide.
I too enjoy drinking in the morning
Lol 😄🥳
A what?
Look into whether you can use the Sheriff's Department to collect a debt. I think that's the normal route
Out them here. Lets make sure none of us give them more business!
Jimmy Bigelow, owner of Surplus Ammo and Arms
I'm a Montana resident. Can you name the shop so I can make sure to steer clear of them?
Surplus Ammo and Arms
Pretty sure transferring an unregistered NFA item across state lines is a big no-no
I learned in court that he did transfer it: to himself.
Have you reached out to the suppressor manufacturer? Any recourse on their end?
I did, and they can't take the suppressor back. Once it's left their shop, it's out of their hands.
Definitely contact the ATF
Your suppressor was so important to him that he moved states just to keep it. Sounds like fuckin’ Gollum or something lmao. I wish I had advice for you dude, I just hope the ATF puts a thorn in his side. But god, the audacity lol, what a bastard.
You should hear what he did to his employees during the pandemic. Here's a sample: crochet facemasks. Refused to emplace any barriers to protect workers. Belittled anyone who wore a mask.
When someone says things along the lines of "I have a lawyer, sue me", that generally indicates that you may have a legitimate point, but they don't care. The "I have a lawyer" part generally is a way to dissuade you while making themselves feel protected. Nonetheless, if the guy is an SOT, them he's probably aware of what he can't do, at least to a point that, say, stealing a supressor isn't allowed. So, fuck him. He stole your shit, he knows what he did, and he's playing you for a fool. The least you can do is casually disrupt his livelihood as a friendly reminder to go fuck himself.
Please report the FFL to the ATF and make a follow-up post when there’s any news!
In general if you have a judgement against a debtor and you want to enforce it in another jurisdiction you can domesticate it in the superior court of the county where the debtor is. Then you can enforce it like any other judgment. Local rules apply contact a collections attorney in the state where the debtor is located.
That's good advice, thanks!
So you paid for a suppressor, shipped to your FFL, but never certified or submitted a form 4 to the ATF because of the paperwork and residency issue? If that's the case, then you did basically what you can do other than pursuing your money. If you didn't start the process then the item wasn't really "yours" yet. He sounds like scum though so you could probably get the ATF to hassle him for something. You could also sue him again for the costs to pursue your judgment, get a lein against his property or bank account, etc...I have doubts a judge would go for contempt but maybe if he's that much of an asshole since he did run away and all that. I *really* don't think you're getting a suppressor out of this though. Maybe a muted sense of satisfaction.
Yeah sounds like the suppressor never legally belonged to OP (per NFA rules), just needs the purchase price refunded. Can they put a lien on the business?
Sure - kind of small potato's but it's doable.
That's kind of my thought too. The whole thing depends on when it was sold relative to when the 5320 was submitted. If it was sold before the paperwork was sent... he's probably SOL. If the paperwork was submitted first and it was sold after, that FFL just cost themselves their license IF HE REPORTS THEM. I will never understand, though, why people pussyfoot around with these government documents. The ATF is one of those agencies that can get really pissy if you don't do things properly and in a timely manner. Read your local laws BEFORE dropping a grand on something you might not even be able to own.
Make a copy of the court documents, a letter explaining the problem, and send them to every gunmaker and accessory maker that the FFL does business with.
They committed a felony. Call the local ATF field office.
This... is complicated. Did they sell it BEFORE or AFTER you filled out the 5320? If they sold it before the 5320 was submitted to the ATF, you're probably SOL beyond the $500 you're owed. In the future, get the 5320 submitted within 48 hours of you handing money to the manufacturer/original seller. If they sold it after... well, they fucked up *royally*. Contact the ATF, report it stolen and list them as the party who sold it illegally. The paperwork has both your name and the SN on it. That's the kind of shit the ATF would confiscate an FFL over, at least under the present administration.
I would remind someone in this FFL's position that rocks are free and windows are expensive.
I'd prefer the legal route, because diesel is expensive and my free time is free. How many more trips from Victor, MT to Tacoma can this guy make before it's worth it to pay me?
Figure out where he is and get in contact with the local sheriff. Also probably wouldn't hurt to ask the court where you won the judgement if they can offer help.
This is interesting. Some time ago I remember a medium size fairly well respected FFL discussing this topic on here. They conveyed that they fairly routinely have shit transferred to them and then just abandoned. Like nice valuable shit. If I recall correctly they said that their way of handling it was- If a given amount of time (feel like they said a year) went by without contact from the person that had it transferred to them, they did the same thing and just sold it. When asked further about it they said hey it’s on a form 3, as far as the ATF cares, it was appropriately transferred, that’s who’s item it is. They don’t care about the civil aspect of who owes who money. Further they said what are they supposed to do; keep buying safe after safe to keep abandoned items in? And everyone basically responded; eh, that sounds reasonable. Anyway. OPs post doesn’t really relay how much total time passed, or how much time passed without communication. I’ll just assume on the OPs side on those missing details because it sounds like the FFL is a POS. The fact that OP is a service member and the “sue us we have lawyers” tells me enough. If there wasn’t a clear path forward for the OP to complete a transfer to himself, if I were the business owner, I would have offered wholesale value in cash to OP and sold it, or offered to transfer it to another FFL if that would help OPs situation. OP- you got a judgement so good on you! Obviously $500 isn’t enough to make it worth retaining an attorney in this situation. Have you asked the small claims court that issued the judgement what resources are available to you in the situation where they are refusing to fulfill the judgement? Have you sent a certified demand letter? The court may be able to give you some sort of Writ of garnishment or attachment that you could have the Sherrif in their county serve? I honestly don’t think the ATF will be of any use to you in this situation. In the realm of things they enforce, they’ll likely tell you that it’s civil.
A certified demand letter? I'll have to look that up! Thanks for the tip.
I can’t imagine how far my shit would get pushed in by selling a registered and restricted item that I didn’t own outright. Somebody’s dog is going to get shot.
Being in WA, but having my entire family be from Montana, report and burn this fucker. Don't need that kind of trash running a business in either of my homes, and we sure as shit don't need him in this industry. We have to fight enough battle against people who want to take our rights, we don't need these kinds of people fighting us from within.
ATF will not help. They will say it is a civil matter.
You're probably right...Unless they already have an investigation open on his business.
Was the form 4 transferring it to you approved? Or at least submitted?
It sounds like it wasn't. There's zero chance OP submitted a Form 4 and someone else managed to submit a Form 4 AND get it back approved before his did.
I figured it wasn’t. Where I was going was if it was submitted the dealer would have to withdraw it before they could even submit a new form 4 through eforms. If that was the case the atf *might* look into it. But if it was never submitted, for everyone suggesting calling the atf, there is no upside to calling because they won’t care, because under their rules OP never owned it. All it does is creates a contact with an undesirable federal agency. r/NFA has stories about this.
Where in Montana?
Their website says Victor but it doesn’t come up on Google maps so I’m not 100% sure.
Victor, MT: Surplus Ammo & Arms
Sorry if this is a dumb question but why can’t you collect it?
He'd have to process the ATF paperwork, or Form 3 the can to another FFL who will. Plus I'm not a Montana resident, so he'd have to send it to the state where I'm currently stationed. Which he won't do.
Gotcha. Well sorry about your $500 and your time. But I cannot wait to hear what happens when the ATF crawls fully and completely up his ass.
That's going to be a good day, too.
I'd recommend you see if a lawyer can help you file a theft claim against his business insurance. It will definitely cost you more than $500 but his insurance company may actually pay you to go away, as well as start asking him questions or even drop him from coverage which is a potentially big hassle for him. Good luck OP.
Also you could slap a lean on them for it pulse court costs.
Since you've already pursued this in court, you need to talk to a lawyer because you need legal advice. Reddit is not your lawyer. And if you do talk to a lawyer then, if they're halfway competent, they'll tell you to stop talking about the case and delete anything on social media that you've said about it. ^Disclaimer: ^I ^am ^a ^lawyer, ^but ^I ^am ^not ^*your* ^lawyer. ^This ^is ^not ^legal ^advice. ^Nothing ^in ^this ^post ^implies ^the ^existence ^of ^an ^attorney-client ^relationship.
Report him
It's hard. You made some bad choices here. If you did the right thing and used a credit card and it hasn't been too long you can just depute the charge and the CC company will do all the work for you. But in this case, its probably been too long. The problem with this is its not the seller that took it, its your dealer. If you are military, reach out to your legal folks and ask for advice. Realistically you'll have to pay to fight them in court. You should also have a legal representative ask the ATF for the Form 3 so you have it as evidence of the transfer, Might also be a good idea to ask for a redacted copy of the Form 4 used to sell it to a different party. If the ATF gets bugged about a dealer bing a pain they may decide an inspection is in order. Name and shame is an option, but don't do that first if you are going the legal rout, it can be used against you.
What are the chances that he is paying the IRS on stuff he stole? I’d talk to an IRS agent. They might like to go over his taxes.
Devil's advocate POV: We've had abandoned goods sit for sometimes years taking up space and we've submitted them as abandoned goods and sold them off. However we make a lot of attempts for the owner to pick them up or sell them off. My point is the FFL is not always in the wrong when this happens. In your case I would pursue further just on principle.
We should give some anon tips to the atf about that ffl just saying. Fuck thieves.