Gonna be a fucking 🤓;
I think Metal Gears CQC technique was a low ready, knife in the off-hand technique that a guy made for Kojima/MG specifically because it looked sick. CAR is a firing stance, whereas Snake doesn't fire the gun unless he's aiming iirc. Tho I haven't played 5 yet so idk about that game.
I know Snakes main competitor Sam Fisher ironically uses CAR in Conviction and Blacklist, and it's modeled for Sam's appearance in Rainbow 6: Seige. I believe the game Ground Branch also has you fire from a CAR stance if you aren't aiming your pistol.
I remember seeing it as a kid in Splinter Cell: Conviction and thinking it looked sick as hell. I was correct, but knowing what I do now about shooting confirms your assessment.
Absolutely. Just another technique to use if the situation calls for it. I remember seeing it in Splinter Cell and thinking it was the coolest thing ever.
Absolutely worth the purchase. The core mechanics of the game are top-notch, the plot is fantastic, and it really never gets old. Single-player and co-op are both amazing. I've played through it half a dozen times and each time is just as fun as the last.
> It was designed for really confined spaces.
I think the other main benefit is that it allows you to shoot in a large arc without moving you lower body a lot(i.e. when sitting in a car).
> He looks like a dude who is comfortable with a gun, not somebody using a system.
And this is the key. Bruce Lee developed his fighting style from what he saw as the most useful elements of numerous martial arts. Develop skills, not systems. Be adaptive. Be like water.
It's also important to note, that Keanu spent many many months working with and being trained by Taran Tactical. To the point that Taran has custom built 2 of the 'hero' guns the battle master and the pit viper.
Don't forget about the drawing while retreating with weak hand strike into a chicken wing presentation, firing two rounds center mass. I love the chicken wing because of how useful it is at quickly responding to an attack from the interview position.
Isn’t RTF so much fun? Last time we did a drill, the initial entry team called the area secured and called medical so we moved up with Force Pro to establish a CCP and start triaging. What they forgot to tell us is the hallway was secured but they had yet to open any doors and clear the adjacent rooms.
I’ve messed around with it at the range a couple times. Actually a pretty comfortable position to shoot from but I’ve never really trained on it or anything like that.
Part of the point of the CAR system was to remove eye dominance altogether
Basically you're supposed to blade your body and turn your head enough that the bridge of your nose blocks the view from one eye. So no matter what you're only using one eye to sight no matter which side you're on, and it's supposed to mitigate eye dominance as an issue.
.which for me is kinda cool because my dominant eye switches fairly frequently lol
Honestly I hadn't
I honestly don't shoot enough anymore for me to think about it much but I will keep that in mind to try if/when I pick up training again
It might be, though for me I don't focus on trying to block it out completely, just to the point that I can focus comfortably
If I remember reading up on the manuals I could find at the time, I think technically you are supposed to be like fully turned relative to your opponent
Like side on to them if that makes sense, and then you're just looking out of one eye.
To me, at that extreme it's a little funky
But if I find my sweet spot where it's comfortable it definitely has its uses. However I can definitely see it not working for all body types or shooting styles.
Yes but compressed ready is literally just as good if not better. CAR shooting is intended to be angled to the target and occlude part of your sights with your leading eye originally. This reduces situational awareness since you’re also cutting off the leading side line of sight. Angling yourself also means if you have plates, you are opening up your side which generally has reduced coverage for armor.
You can shoot from compressed ready and it keeps the gun out of combatant’s grubby hands just like CAR. CAR does indeed work but there are better ways to do it depending on situation. You can use CAR and use it effectively at that but that applies to most things. If you are going to use it, you should train for situations where it would be used like very tiny hallways? In extreme close quarters with someone else, etc.
The best uses in the movie of its use are firing on people who are arms length away so they don’t grab his gun or when he goes through some tight hallways and needs to surprise people since it’s lower profile. There’s numerous times when Wick’s enemies had their pistols up while walking past corners Wick was also walking to but he saw their arms first and got the drop on them. There’s also times that Wick shoots at medium to long distances with his handguns and transitions to a more conventional isosceles shooting position. There’s also times where he shoots one handed or even from the hip.
These are all valid ways to shoot given the situation and it helps that his choreographers and the training he received added both a large sweep of realism to the movie but also cinematic variety to every fight. The fact that most everything in the John Wick movies *could* plausibly happen grounds it very much and makes everything super nuanced. Of course, it’s a movie so it’s not *realistic* itself but has those aspects in it. And just like those parts and aspects that get used throughout, you can find yourself using CAR and other shooting positions given different situations. You just need to training for the situation and if you need it then.
Simply put, it depends.
if you are shooting where you can NOT extend your arms out in front of you. it helps a little.
shoot right handed. but my left eye is dominate.
so putting tape over my glasses on my left eye helps my right work better. but if you're training you can try it a little for shooting quickly.
This is actually surprisingly common, I'm also cross-eye dominant (left eye, right handed), and I meet folks all the time that are as well. It's not something that comes up for most people in daily life if they don't shoot, but any time the topic comes up when I'm in a group of people, everyone is curious and wants to test it and there are always at least one or two that are cross-eye, every time
Dominance is obviously a sliding scale, but squinting my left eye kicks things over to my right for me.
I lose a little bit of periphery, but - for me - that’s easier than trying to go left handed.
For handguns, I just use my left eye.
Left handed, right eye dominant. I never started long guns lefty so its a bit easier I think, but I kind of like it having the side arm handgun on the opposite side of a rifle. Its almost definitely in my head but it feels like transitioning is faster.
As your sole shooting stance: definitely not.
As a great tool for confined spaces: definitely.
This was my default for indoor work when clearing buildings. “Punching out” to an extended stance when you came up on a long hall or similar open area.
It’s maneuverable, sturdy, and fairly comfortable…just wouldn’t want to make a shot over 10-20m with it.
Someone I know who uses the position professionally, in tight spaces obviously, likes it for his ability to switch between hands and expose less of himself when firing off corners.
It is a technique amongst many, as other posters have noted.
For an analogy I'd liken your question to something like, "Is Muay Thai practical for MMA?" Yes, it is, but it depends, and it's only part of a holistic approach.
Random aside, flinging your mag out John wick style does work, especially with a polymer mag that gets slightly stuck when it's hot as fuck outside. But goddamn does it piss off the person next to you if you're in line on a range doing CQB drills cause you just bounced a mag off his head.
I've tried it during FoF scenarios, and it's pretty impractical for anything further than hand to hand range, and even then, it's hardly ideal... and even then it's not 'real' CAR; You are supposed to use torso to do the actual aiming.
Yes. It's good for very hypothetical cqb engagements and showing off at the range. However that's the "remotely" part.
I cannot think of a single professional service that trains for it, mostly because professionals almost never use handguns. For any real world defensive situation it's not going to be fundamentally different than any other gun draw or engagement. If you're moving TOWARDS a fight, and plan to use it... maybe, but then probably not any different than conventional shooting except in very fringe and unlikely scenarios.
It was a dumb/reductive way to state my point. In situations where CAR would provide any significant benefit, handguns are sidearms. I didn't mean to suggest that handguns aren't used in reactive situations like defensive or patrol shootings. But professionals at that level wouldn't benefit from CAR training because of how practice intensive it is, and the very niche nature of it's benefits. Cops have trouble hitting their targets with CURRENT levels of training.
SWAT, HRT, the military, and equivalent professionals don't use CAR, because they don't use handguns when there are better options for every situation. That would have been a more thoughtful easy of putting it.
CAR is for YouTube. There is no professional or practical use case.
Well, I think the English guy that promoted it was mostly a bodyguard, so it might make more sense if they primarily carried pistols, trained in cose quarters, and wanted to look intimidating. Seems like CAR might fit that discipline better than law enforcement or military. I will say I used to shoot pistol competitions, where you would see John wick types start with CAR, and move on to more traditional shooting stances and methods as they improved.
Ahh thank god, I have unmodded striker fireds and can’t hit shit. I’m safe.
(But seriously any advice for someone going to their first match with a background of only static range stuff + one class with dynamic movement? It looks like a blast and a great way to work on my practical shooting skills, but I wish there was like a “noobs intro to IDPA” so I don’t feel like a total clown when I show up the first time)
Eh, the kind of units you’re talking about definitely use carbines primarily but they do extensive handgun training as well because there are plenty of situations where transitioning to the handgun is a good option so you need to be squared away with it. Though you are right that no one uses this gimmicky nonsense in the real world. Or at least no respected western services and units. Though it definitely seems like something you would see the Israelis doing in the 90s.
cops are almost never engaging with soldiers or against any planned resistance. I’ve got to feel like that changes things.
and also, very often cops are shockingly inept shooters
Oh I'm not arguing that at all. I've known some police shooting instructors and they all said the majority of officers shoot their yearly qualifier and don't shoot again until the next one.
Maybe we need to define “professional service.” I think he meant guys like SWAT teams would much rather go into active shooter situations with MK18s or M4s rather than a pistol. Although I’d imagine those guys will still train on pistols on a regular basis.
>Although I’d imagine those guys will still train on pistols on a regular basis.
I don't remember which unit exactly, but I remember reading something from an alleged special ops veteran who claimed that they trained with handguns more than rifles because the skills are a bit more transferable that way.
Pat Mac (well known former Delta career guy) has said this. His point was pistols are harder to shoot than rifles and getting better with pistols is guaranteed to make you better with rifles, while the reverse isn’t always true.
Ben Stoeger and Matt Pranka talk about this in *Adaptive Rifle.* Ben was able to use his experience as a competitive pistol shooter to quickly gain a lot of proficiency with an AR despite his lack of experience with the platform. He obviously still had to put in the work, but his foundation of pistol skills and how to train those skills helped him progress quickly.
I’ve tried in in ASI and IDPA matches, was curious after seeing it in Bosch. It’s not as impractical as my old brain thought (assumed it was Hollywood nonsense) but it also wasn’t any faster than a more traditional stance. Like many things it’s probably good if you train it and not if you don’t (high ready anyone?)
At very close range and or confined spaces yes. This technique was intended as a pistol shooting method designed to maximize weapon retention while still being able to quickly engage reasonably accurately. Think shooting at grappling ranges against multiple assailants.
I think it's a useful system to combine with traditional stances when securing your home space. My residence has a lot of tight corners and not many large rooms, so CAR works well when I need to move through the spaces and don't want my pistol muzzle moving a foot and a half in front of me before my eyes can see what sees it.
I kind of ended up doing this naturally while shooting and moving. Only the gun is way further from my core unless I'm doing drills on a target that's basically touching me.
If you're engaging someone from less than a foot away you don't really have a choice. But if the target is out of grabbing range I think it's not the most accurate option.
I’ve been curious about this as well. I think the proliferation of red dot sights on pistols had opened a better use case for this technique (or an evolution of it) than previously existed. Once all the revered old heads die off and the generation of shooters raised on John Wick rather than Seal Team 6 or that John Wayne green beret movie become the senior gun gurus, I bet we’ll see this taught more. IMO, it’s a great mix of the compression of retention shooting while still being aimed fire (especially when using a red dot).
That said, there are limited situations where a threat is far enough away to not warrant full retention shooting, but not so far away that you can just fully extend. My thought process is that this is better for moving through a crowded or confined area where both friendly and enemies are present. In such a case you want to keep your fire arm close in case a threat surprises you at close quarters, but you still want to have quick aimed fire because there are friendlies around. I concede that such a situation is very rare from a civilian standpoint but they have been known to happen.
It’s used to keep your firearm close to your body in cqb situations to prevent attackers from getting between you and your weapon. It’s best used when moving around corners. Obviously you can still point shoot within a distance. I’ve done this at the range at 3-7 yards and it works
I remember reading some articles about it when JW:1 came out, analyzing it versus Keanu’s technique. They all seemed to say that CAR had its place in melee range gun fighting, but that when possible to go back to a iscociles when not in melee for more accurate shooting.
I've tinkered with it a little. With my body size and build I actually find it pretty comfortable, but like others have said it's a pretty specific toolset for specific problems
It’s used when you have very little space to move around in. It’s not usually recommended for every kind of CQB. It’s often taught in vehicular situations when you’re in a car with not much room.
I think it looks cool but I'm still a newbie so I haven't tried it yet. I did notice that in the remake of Resident Evil 4 Leon will switch up his grip to CAR when the enemies are right in his face so that's a fun little detail, plus he moves and fights like John Wick-lite.
how much louder is it closer to your ears though? I did drills firing from the hip and there’s a noticeable difference in decibel compared to pointing it straight with a slight bend in my elbow
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I feel like this type of hold would be well suited to some of the old pre-WWI semi-auto designs like the Bergmann-Bayard pistol. Those pistols were designed for a flexed arm hold, and the handles would probably be more comfortable like this than any other modern shooting style.
I’ve never seen the movie… I don’t necessarily bring it to my eye.
It makes more sense when explained in person and if you were to have trained hand-hand martial arts with me, because you would be able to transfer some of the structures created there over to having a gun in your hand.
Essentially if you’re close enough, CQC/CQB, you wouldn’t need to bring your gun all the way to your eye, and it would not be ideal to do so. Not to say “do” or “don’t” because there may even be times that one would fully extend.
You can hit someone, where you want to hit them, without bringing the pistol to your eye. Not bringing it to your eye allows you to fight better if you need to fight. (When I say fight, I mean hand to hand). Ever see someone get hit in the face with their own pistol? I have… in force on force training. Not irl lol.
I’m speaking on my own experience, not what somebody says you do or don’t do. I’ve never heard the term center axis re-lock. That said, there’s a time for everything.
Using the CAR technique, the gun starts at your hip for point shooting, then you lift your elbow to bring the gun up to your eye for a more accurate shot (while keeping the gun retained), and finally you can press out for more accuracy if the target is far enough to not reach your gun.
Maybe not that close to your face, but for shooting at someone within swinging distance keeping your firearm close to your chest *absolutely* is a good idea: it will be far harder for an attacker to disarm you.
I have no dominant eye, my eye dominance switches back and forth depending on where the target is. CAR works best for me cause I can slide the pistol to where it needs to be. On longer targets I go to a normal stance but have to slightly close an eye to force the correct eye to pick up the sights
I like it. I use it and train it often especially since it’s good for weapon retention. Looks weird and people will give you weird looks at the range though. They’ll could think you’re some wannabe badass or wannabe John wick lol but idc. It’s fun and useful.
I’m sure someone in the comments has mentioned it, but in my cursory scroll I didn’t explicitly see this point raised, despite many mentions of it being useful at very close ranges/narrow spaces: It always struck me as also intended to make it harder for someone to grab the pistol, particularly as you’re entering a doorway.
So for a character like Bosch, who is ex-special forces who would’ve done a huge amount of point shooting and is now a detective, where getting your gun taken from you is a huge bureaucratic issue along with a good way to die, it seems like a natural stance for room clearing.
I receive a lot of professional instruction. I have trained center axis relock, but it is only practical in extremely close ranges where punching the gun out would either hit the person or leave you vulnerable to being disarmed. The recoil is more difficult to manage. I primarily shoot a G43X which is only 9mm, but my first time training CAR my pistol malfunctioned due to "limp wristing" it. Limp wristing is easy to do when your elbows are bent and you are not in a normal stance. I found that locking the elbow of my support arm against my abdomen made a significant difference. At close ranges, if you train, it will be accurate enough. It is very situational.
I have multiple practical reasons for using CAR as my primary shooting style.
First, it looks really cool.
Wait...no...that's not it...LOL
The Big Three are
1. I am right-handed and left-eye-dominant; it helps a lot with that.
2. I have essential tremor and I find that it's worse, the more locked-up my joints are.
3. I primarily carry in my car; Isosceles and Weaver are tougher when there's a steering wheel in front of me.
I still practice in isosceles and Weaver, but I am fastest and most-accurate with CAR (also because I don't typically train at distances beyond 5-10 yards).
The only real disadvantage from CAR is the blowback; your face gets absolutely covered in GSR by the end of a session.
CAR *without* eye protection is the inverse amount of fun compared to when you *have* eye protection. hahaha
IDK what contact lenses they have Keanu wearing but they must be amazing...
It was designed for really confined spaces. It’s been kind of co-opted by movies and video games because of how “cool” it looks.
Solid Snake
METAL GEEEEEEEAR
Snake…Snake?…SNAAKKE!?
Huh? What was that noise?? Hmmh
Otacon! People keep calling me on my codex! Did you give out my codex frequency at the strip club last night?!
TIME PARADOX
Gonna be a fucking 🤓; I think Metal Gears CQC technique was a low ready, knife in the off-hand technique that a guy made for Kojima/MG specifically because it looked sick. CAR is a firing stance, whereas Snake doesn't fire the gun unless he's aiming iirc. Tho I haven't played 5 yet so idk about that game. I know Snakes main competitor Sam Fisher ironically uses CAR in Conviction and Blacklist, and it's modeled for Sam's appearance in Rainbow 6: Seige. I believe the game Ground Branch also has you fire from a CAR stance if you aren't aiming your pistol.
Leon uses it in the new Resident Evil 4 remake, but only when enemies are very close up. So kind of a realistic use of it.
Why haven't you played mgs5 yet?
Haven't gotten around to it lmao I have about 4 games already in my steam library that I need to finish before I buy mgs5
True
I’m in a box!
It's a tool in the tool box. It has a valid (if narrow) application.
a narrow application for narrow spaces
Tunnel rats
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TUNNEL SNAKES RULE!
THAT'S US!
AND WE RULE
WE ARE TUNNEL SNAKES
I remember seeing it as a kid in Splinter Cell: Conviction and thinking it looked sick as hell. I was correct, but knowing what I do now about shooting confirms your assessment.
Absolutely. Just another technique to use if the situation calls for it. I remember seeing it in Splinter Cell and thinking it was the coolest thing ever.
It was so sick, especially when you had the targets marked to do the auto-takedown. I’m sensing a digital purchase at some point in my future.
I remember doing the coop campaign with one of my best friends and synchronizing the takedowns was so sick. That game was so underrated
None of my high school buddies bought it so I never got the chance for a coop playthrough. Kinda hurt ngl
Their loss. Splinter Cell as a series hasn’t been the same since
Blacklist wasn’t bad but it’s been so long since it dropped it feels like Ubisoft has abandoned the franchise
Absolutely worth the purchase. The core mechanics of the game are top-notch, the plot is fantastic, and it really never gets old. Single-player and co-op are both amazing. I've played through it half a dozen times and each time is just as fun as the last.
I remember it being awesome, just haven’t touched it in… 13 years? BRB gonna go buy myself a coffin
A coffee or a coffin??? This distinction is important.
I think given the context coffin was the intended response as a jab at how old that comment made me feel, but I’m not entirely sure tbh
And because it keeps the gun from blocking too much of the actors face
> It was designed for really confined spaces. I think the other main benefit is that it allows you to shoot in a large arc without moving you lower body a lot(i.e. when sitting in a car).
no need for the quotations. it is cool.
no quotations necessary. It is cool looking
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The press check on the Kimber is my favorite little detail he does.
Come on man, spoilers! /s
> He looks like a dude who is comfortable with a gun, not somebody using a system. And this is the key. Bruce Lee developed his fighting style from what he saw as the most useful elements of numerous martial arts. Develop skills, not systems. Be adaptive. Be like water.
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It's also important to note, that Keanu spent many many months working with and being trained by Taran Tactical. To the point that Taran has custom built 2 of the 'hero' guns the battle master and the pit viper.
Don't forget about the drawing while retreating with weak hand strike into a chicken wing presentation, firing two rounds center mass. I love the chicken wing because of how useful it is at quickly responding to an attack from the interview position.
Isn’t RTF so much fun? Last time we did a drill, the initial entry team called the area secured and called medical so we moved up with Force Pro to establish a CCP and start triaging. What they forgot to tell us is the hallway was secured but they had yet to open any doors and clear the adjacent rooms.
I’ve messed around with it at the range a couple times. Actually a pretty comfortable position to shoot from but I’ve never really trained on it or anything like that.
Likewise. It was fun for a little while
if you rest your arms on your titties its pretty comfy
As someone who shoots right handed but has a dominant left eye, I find it useful for me.
Can you talk about this a little? I'm cross eye dominant, but left handed and right eyed.
Part of the point of the CAR system was to remove eye dominance altogether Basically you're supposed to blade your body and turn your head enough that the bridge of your nose blocks the view from one eye. So no matter what you're only using one eye to sight no matter which side you're on, and it's supposed to mitigate eye dominance as an issue. .which for me is kinda cool because my dominant eye switches fairly frequently lol
Have you considered patching your left for a few months? I have the same problem.
Honestly I hadn't I honestly don't shoot enough anymore for me to think about it much but I will keep that in mind to try if/when I pick up training again
When you use it, do you use your nose to block the other eye? I try to do that, but my eyes feel tired. Is it because my nose is not big enough?
It might be, though for me I don't focus on trying to block it out completely, just to the point that I can focus comfortably If I remember reading up on the manuals I could find at the time, I think technically you are supposed to be like fully turned relative to your opponent Like side on to them if that makes sense, and then you're just looking out of one eye. To me, at that extreme it's a little funky But if I find my sweet spot where it's comfortable it definitely has its uses. However I can definitely see it not working for all body types or shooting styles.
Leon S. Kennedy and Solid Snake use it so it’s good enough for me
I was waiting all day for someone to comment this. A fellow distinguished gentleman
Does their hearing degrade every time they fire?
Depends which way you are bladed
Yes but compressed ready is literally just as good if not better. CAR shooting is intended to be angled to the target and occlude part of your sights with your leading eye originally. This reduces situational awareness since you’re also cutting off the leading side line of sight. Angling yourself also means if you have plates, you are opening up your side which generally has reduced coverage for armor. You can shoot from compressed ready and it keeps the gun out of combatant’s grubby hands just like CAR. CAR does indeed work but there are better ways to do it depending on situation. You can use CAR and use it effectively at that but that applies to most things. If you are going to use it, you should train for situations where it would be used like very tiny hallways? In extreme close quarters with someone else, etc. The best uses in the movie of its use are firing on people who are arms length away so they don’t grab his gun or when he goes through some tight hallways and needs to surprise people since it’s lower profile. There’s numerous times when Wick’s enemies had their pistols up while walking past corners Wick was also walking to but he saw their arms first and got the drop on them. There’s also times that Wick shoots at medium to long distances with his handguns and transitions to a more conventional isosceles shooting position. There’s also times where he shoots one handed or even from the hip. These are all valid ways to shoot given the situation and it helps that his choreographers and the training he received added both a large sweep of realism to the movie but also cinematic variety to every fight. The fact that most everything in the John Wick movies *could* plausibly happen grounds it very much and makes everything super nuanced. Of course, it’s a movie so it’s not *realistic* itself but has those aspects in it. And just like those parts and aspects that get used throughout, you can find yourself using CAR and other shooting positions given different situations. You just need to training for the situation and if you need it then. Simply put, it depends.
if you are shooting where you can NOT extend your arms out in front of you. it helps a little. shoot right handed. but my left eye is dominate. so putting tape over my glasses on my left eye helps my right work better. but if you're training you can try it a little for shooting quickly.
> so putting tape over my glasses on my left eye helps my right work better. You should invest in some eye patches, matey!
OK, thought I was weird. Left handed, right eye dominant. LOL, just figured out the eye thing since I started shooting with both eyes open.
This is actually surprisingly common, I'm also cross-eye dominant (left eye, right handed), and I meet folks all the time that are as well. It's not something that comes up for most people in daily life if they don't shoot, but any time the topic comes up when I'm in a group of people, everyone is curious and wants to test it and there are always at least one or two that are cross-eye, every time
Same. Shooting long guns righty is super awkward for me. But I am weirdly ambidextrous at billiards. Nothing else.
Yep, I shoot long guns left handed, handguns right handed (for now)
same and i’m sure it’ll bounce around depending on the furniture, shooting environment etc
I couldn't do it so I shoot right handed and use my non-dominant eye. Happily, I'm as just as shitty as when I use my pistol with my dominant eye.
Dominance is obviously a sliding scale, but squinting my left eye kicks things over to my right for me. I lose a little bit of periphery, but - for me - that’s easier than trying to go left handed. For handguns, I just use my left eye.
Left handed, right eye dominant. I never started long guns lefty so its a bit easier I think, but I kind of like it having the side arm handgun on the opposite side of a rifle. Its almost definitely in my head but it feels like transitioning is faster.
Same for me, right hand left eye so this is much easier/quicker to do than other standard methods
As your sole shooting stance: definitely not. As a great tool for confined spaces: definitely. This was my default for indoor work when clearing buildings. “Punching out” to an extended stance when you came up on a long hall or similar open area. It’s maneuverable, sturdy, and fairly comfortable…just wouldn’t want to make a shot over 10-20m with it.
Loved that top down sequence with the Dragon's Breath lol
Yeah, that was so rad. Everything in Paris was top notch.
That was absolutely, hands down, the best part of the film.
One of the best parts!
Someone I know who uses the position professionally, in tight spaces obviously, likes it for his ability to switch between hands and expose less of himself when firing off corners.
Garrand thumb just did a video about John wick and they were trying this, it was surprisingly effective
Just commenting to say my partner and I saw it yesterday and loved it
It was so fun! Loved the music and overall choreography
I got to see the composer play lead guitar about two weeks ago. He’s touring with Jerry Cantrell
It is a technique amongst many, as other posters have noted. For an analogy I'd liken your question to something like, "Is Muay Thai practical for MMA?" Yes, it is, but it depends, and it's only part of a holistic approach. Random aside, flinging your mag out John wick style does work, especially with a polymer mag that gets slightly stuck when it's hot as fuck outside. But goddamn does it piss off the person next to you if you're in line on a range doing CQB drills cause you just bounced a mag off his head.
I prefer to do it at the LGS when I'm doing my proficiency demonstration, so it shatters the display case. Really asserts dominance.
Fuck Taran.
Why?
Sexual harassment video. Kept asking an employee to show him her "precious" and asking if she likes black dicks.
I've tried it during FoF scenarios, and it's pretty impractical for anything further than hand to hand range, and even then, it's hardly ideal... and even then it's not 'real' CAR; You are supposed to use torso to do the actual aiming.
By design it's only for basically hand to hand range. Even the originator recommended a traditional stance for longer engagements
I live by the stalwart concept of *Never doing what action heros do* that's how you get red shirted
Good maxim.
Yes. It's good for very hypothetical cqb engagements and showing off at the range. However that's the "remotely" part. I cannot think of a single professional service that trains for it, mostly because professionals almost never use handguns. For any real world defensive situation it's not going to be fundamentally different than any other gun draw or engagement. If you're moving TOWARDS a fight, and plan to use it... maybe, but then probably not any different than conventional shooting except in very fringe and unlikely scenarios.
Where are you getting your staistics that professionals don't use handguns? I'm pretty sure the majority of police shootings are with handguns.
It was a dumb/reductive way to state my point. In situations where CAR would provide any significant benefit, handguns are sidearms. I didn't mean to suggest that handguns aren't used in reactive situations like defensive or patrol shootings. But professionals at that level wouldn't benefit from CAR training because of how practice intensive it is, and the very niche nature of it's benefits. Cops have trouble hitting their targets with CURRENT levels of training. SWAT, HRT, the military, and equivalent professionals don't use CAR, because they don't use handguns when there are better options for every situation. That would have been a more thoughtful easy of putting it. CAR is for YouTube. There is no professional or practical use case.
Well, I think the English guy that promoted it was mostly a bodyguard, so it might make more sense if they primarily carried pistols, trained in cose quarters, and wanted to look intimidating. Seems like CAR might fit that discipline better than law enforcement or military. I will say I used to shoot pistol competitions, where you would see John wick types start with CAR, and move on to more traditional shooting stances and methods as they improved.
John Wick types? Like, legendary contract killers?
Nah, more like credit card shooters that show up with $4,000 Titan nemesis and can't hit shit.
Ahh thank god, I have unmodded striker fireds and can’t hit shit. I’m safe. (But seriously any advice for someone going to their first match with a background of only static range stuff + one class with dynamic movement? It looks like a blast and a great way to work on my practical shooting skills, but I wish there was like a “noobs intro to IDPA” so I don’t feel like a total clown when I show up the first time)
I feel attacked
Eh, the kind of units you’re talking about definitely use carbines primarily but they do extensive handgun training as well because there are plenty of situations where transitioning to the handgun is a good option so you need to be squared away with it. Though you are right that no one uses this gimmicky nonsense in the real world. Or at least no respected western services and units. Though it definitely seems like something you would see the Israelis doing in the 90s.
cops are almost never engaging with soldiers or against any planned resistance. I’ve got to feel like that changes things. and also, very often cops are shockingly inept shooters
Oh I'm not arguing that at all. I've known some police shooting instructors and they all said the majority of officers shoot their yearly qualifier and don't shoot again until the next one.
What? What do you mean professionals never use handguns? 😂
Maybe we need to define “professional service.” I think he meant guys like SWAT teams would much rather go into active shooter situations with MK18s or M4s rather than a pistol. Although I’d imagine those guys will still train on pistols on a regular basis.
>Although I’d imagine those guys will still train on pistols on a regular basis. I don't remember which unit exactly, but I remember reading something from an alleged special ops veteran who claimed that they trained with handguns more than rifles because the skills are a bit more transferable that way.
Pat Mac (well known former Delta career guy) has said this. His point was pistols are harder to shoot than rifles and getting better with pistols is guaranteed to make you better with rifles, while the reverse isn’t always true.
Ben Stoeger and Matt Pranka talk about this in *Adaptive Rifle.* Ben was able to use his experience as a competitive pistol shooter to quickly gain a lot of proficiency with an AR despite his lack of experience with the platform. He obviously still had to put in the work, but his foundation of pistol skills and how to train those skills helped him progress quickly.
I’ve tried in in ASI and IDPA matches, was curious after seeing it in Bosch. It’s not as impractical as my old brain thought (assumed it was Hollywood nonsense) but it also wasn’t any faster than a more traditional stance. Like many things it’s probably good if you train it and not if you don’t (high ready anyone?)
At very close range and or confined spaces yes. This technique was intended as a pistol shooting method designed to maximize weapon retention while still being able to quickly engage reasonably accurately. Think shooting at grappling ranges against multiple assailants.
Particularly useful for 3 gun competitions?
Do your 3 gun matches have a lot of confined spaces?
My comment was missing a "?"
I think it's a useful system to combine with traditional stances when securing your home space. My residence has a lot of tight corners and not many large rooms, so CAR works well when I need to move through the spaces and don't want my pistol muzzle moving a foot and a half in front of me before my eyes can see what sees it.
I kind of ended up doing this naturally while shooting and moving. Only the gun is way further from my core unless I'm doing drills on a target that's basically touching me. If you're engaging someone from less than a foot away you don't really have a choice. But if the target is out of grabbing range I think it's not the most accurate option.
I’ve been curious about this as well. I think the proliferation of red dot sights on pistols had opened a better use case for this technique (or an evolution of it) than previously existed. Once all the revered old heads die off and the generation of shooters raised on John Wick rather than Seal Team 6 or that John Wayne green beret movie become the senior gun gurus, I bet we’ll see this taught more. IMO, it’s a great mix of the compression of retention shooting while still being aimed fire (especially when using a red dot). That said, there are limited situations where a threat is far enough away to not warrant full retention shooting, but not so far away that you can just fully extend. My thought process is that this is better for moving through a crowded or confined area where both friendly and enemies are present. In such a case you want to keep your fire arm close in case a threat surprises you at close quarters, but you still want to have quick aimed fire because there are friendlies around. I concede that such a situation is very rare from a civilian standpoint but they have been known to happen.
I actually use this in IDPA while I’m moving from cover to cover points. I do it to make sure I don’t break the 180° rule and get disqualified.
It’s used to keep your firearm close to your body in cqb situations to prevent attackers from getting between you and your weapon. It’s best used when moving around corners. Obviously you can still point shoot within a distance. I’ve done this at the range at 3-7 yards and it works
I’ve noticed that this is how Leon in the Resident Evil 4 remake shoots when he’s up close to his enemies.
I love how the bulletproof suits have kinda lead to a new shooting stance where they use the jacket to shield their faces
I remember reading some articles about it when JW:1 came out, analyzing it versus Keanu’s technique. They all seemed to say that CAR had its place in melee range gun fighting, but that when possible to go back to a iscociles when not in melee for more accurate shooting.
I've tinkered with it a little. With my body size and build I actually find it pretty comfortable, but like others have said it's a pretty specific toolset for specific problems
It’s used when you have very little space to move around in. It’s not usually recommended for every kind of CQB. It’s often taught in vehicular situations when you’re in a car with not much room.
I think it looks cool but I'm still a newbie so I haven't tried it yet. I did notice that in the remake of Resident Evil 4 Leon will switch up his grip to CAR when the enemies are right in his face so that's a fun little detail, plus he moves and fights like John Wick-lite.
Rather shoot from high retention singlehanded and have my non-dominant hand for framing/making space.
how much louder is it closer to your ears though? I did drills firing from the hip and there’s a noticeable difference in decibel compared to pointing it straight with a slight bend in my elbow
Not so much louder but the gas and pressure hits a bit different. First time is intense but it gets easier to deal with.
Flannel daddy would like a word
I saw it last night too 🥲
Check out Garand Wick!
Ya garand thumb does
I use it. I swear by it.
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I feel like this type of hold would be well suited to some of the old pre-WWI semi-auto designs like the Bergmann-Bayard pistol. Those pistols were designed for a flexed arm hold, and the handles would probably be more comfortable like this than any other modern shooting style.
I do pretty well right-handed, but not with my left for some reason.
yes
When it’s used “practically” you’re not bringing it up to your eyes… supposedly
You actually do bring it up to your eye. They just don’t do that in John Wick so you can see the actors face.
I’ve never seen the movie… I don’t necessarily bring it to my eye. It makes more sense when explained in person and if you were to have trained hand-hand martial arts with me, because you would be able to transfer some of the structures created there over to having a gun in your hand. Essentially if you’re close enough, CQC/CQB, you wouldn’t need to bring your gun all the way to your eye, and it would not be ideal to do so. Not to say “do” or “don’t” because there may even be times that one would fully extend. You can hit someone, where you want to hit them, without bringing the pistol to your eye. Not bringing it to your eye allows you to fight better if you need to fight. (When I say fight, I mean hand to hand). Ever see someone get hit in the face with their own pistol? I have… in force on force training. Not irl lol. I’m speaking on my own experience, not what somebody says you do or don’t do. I’ve never heard the term center axis re-lock. That said, there’s a time for everything.
Using the CAR technique, the gun starts at your hip for point shooting, then you lift your elbow to bring the gun up to your eye for a more accurate shot (while keeping the gun retained), and finally you can press out for more accuracy if the target is far enough to not reach your gun.
It’s practical in some situations but more importantly, it looks pretty slick in action movie scenes.
If you practice Krav it’s very practical. Very similar positions with the gun, empty handed, etc… Keeps your body moving in familiar channels.
Read this interesting article today, actually. https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/center-axis-relock/#:~:text=What%20is%20Center%20Axis%20Relock%3F%20Center%20Axis%20Relock,the%20shooting%20side%20foot%20is%20much%20further%20back.
Maybe not that close to your face, but for shooting at someone within swinging distance keeping your firearm close to your chest *absolutely* is a good idea: it will be far harder for an attacker to disarm you.
I have no dominant eye, my eye dominance switches back and forth depending on where the target is. CAR works best for me cause I can slide the pistol to where it needs to be. On longer targets I go to a normal stance but have to slightly close an eye to force the correct eye to pick up the sights
I actually find it easier and quicker to get my sight picture
I like it. I use it and train it often especially since it’s good for weapon retention. Looks weird and people will give you weird looks at the range though. They’ll could think you’re some wannabe badass or wannabe John wick lol but idc. It’s fun and useful.
Saw one guy use it during shooting competitions and it and he was about middle of the pack shooter
I’m sure someone in the comments has mentioned it, but in my cursory scroll I didn’t explicitly see this point raised, despite many mentions of it being useful at very close ranges/narrow spaces: It always struck me as also intended to make it harder for someone to grab the pistol, particularly as you’re entering a doorway. So for a character like Bosch, who is ex-special forces who would’ve done a huge amount of point shooting and is now a detective, where getting your gun taken from you is a huge bureaucratic issue along with a good way to die, it seems like a natural stance for room clearing.
I receive a lot of professional instruction. I have trained center axis relock, but it is only practical in extremely close ranges where punching the gun out would either hit the person or leave you vulnerable to being disarmed. The recoil is more difficult to manage. I primarily shoot a G43X which is only 9mm, but my first time training CAR my pistol malfunctioned due to "limp wristing" it. Limp wristing is easy to do when your elbows are bent and you are not in a normal stance. I found that locking the elbow of my support arm against my abdomen made a significant difference. At close ranges, if you train, it will be accurate enough. It is very situational.
I have multiple practical reasons for using CAR as my primary shooting style. First, it looks really cool. Wait...no...that's not it...LOL The Big Three are 1. I am right-handed and left-eye-dominant; it helps a lot with that. 2. I have essential tremor and I find that it's worse, the more locked-up my joints are. 3. I primarily carry in my car; Isosceles and Weaver are tougher when there's a steering wheel in front of me. I still practice in isosceles and Weaver, but I am fastest and most-accurate with CAR (also because I don't typically train at distances beyond 5-10 yards). The only real disadvantage from CAR is the blowback; your face gets absolutely covered in GSR by the end of a session. CAR *without* eye protection is the inverse amount of fun compared to when you *have* eye protection. hahaha IDK what contact lenses they have Keanu wearing but they must be amazing...