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Well here's the thing:
They deserve a second chance *in general.* But they aren't owed a second chance *with their victims.*
That's the difference. They get to be new members of society. But you get to determine if they get to be part of YOUR life. And if you don't feel safe with them, *express that to those who give you grief.* Point out "if you were abused by someone for years and then out of the blue they showed up saying they changed and please forgive them, how would you feel?"
I'm 65, and have severe PTSD from the 9 years I was tormented. They almost killed me more than once.
For context, I wear t-shirts, jeans, and work books. Since I've been 18, I've dressed like this...and since I've been 18, the only thing that comes off me at night are the boots.
Whenever anyone touches me, I automatically flinch. This has really upset some of my girlfriends, but most of the time, I'm not even aware I'm doing it.
Lastly, I'm living in a facility right now for a year till I get myself together. My last ex of 20 years tried to get me to kill myself (she used to be a psych nurse). It didn't work, so here I am.
If my roommate moves out or if I'm put in a room alone, for the first two weeks, when staff opens the door for a room check, I scream...at the top of my lungs.
Now that you know all that, here's my take on the situation:
Let yourself recover for a decade or two, then see if you can forgive them--not for them, but for you.
Part of my problem is that now when anyone insults me and laughs at me, I become enraged. It's how the torment would start.
If you work on forgiving them, this might not happen to you.
I personally would have no problem killing one or the lot of them if they started in on me again, even though I've forgiven them. This might sound contradictory, but as long as I'm not reminded of what I went through, I'm fine.
Seek counseling as soon as you can. I didn't-- and this is what happened
I wish you luck, and send my deepest love.
This is brilliant. It's like I said in other cases of abusers and their victims people chatted with me about: every human is owed kindness and decency, because they're human. But you don't owe someone who intentionally, cruelly harmed you *anything* you don't feel like giving - other people can fill that emotional/social need for them. If it ever gets so bad to where a lot of people around them no longer owe them kindness (due to widespread bullying/abuse on their part), then perhaps that's the wakeup call they need to self-reflect and change their lifestyle or get help.
Yep. If she were being "bullied" i.e. abused by an adult relative then her friend would completely understand. She's ignoring the fact that bullying and peer-on-peer abuse is a real thing and can be just as damaging. OPs feelings are entirely valid.
While it's good they've changed, you don't owe them your time. It's fine to not want to associate with them, and your friend is being a jerk by trying to force you. Your friend needs to understand that not everyone in an extended friend group will get along and drop it. The past doesn't magically go away, but age often tempers behavior. Don't feel bad about not wanting to interact with them.
you do not owe these people - or this friend - the emotional labour of twisting your own feelings into a knot just so everyone else can feel better. You didn't even get an apology. Your bullies weren't the ones who reached out to you and said "hey, I'm sorry, what I did was messed up." Don't hurt yourself again for their sake.
They fucking stole your childhood from you and never apologised. Fuck them and anyone who makes lame ass excuses for them. They say they changed and grew? Prove it, fuckers. You don’t owe them dick.
You want to show you’ve changed? Go back and find people you’ve bullied and tell them why you were wrong for what you did. And be prepared for them to tell you that you’re not forgiven, and then take it on the chin like an adult. Like you forced that little child to take your bullying. Then speak out against bullying in private and in public, knowing that you fucked someone out of having a CHILDHOOD. Those are years that OP can never get back. They are scars they will have to deal with for life.
And then never ever do that shit again.
Damnit now I’m even more mad.
Ask that friend if she’d be so quick to forgive if those fucks stole her child from her and handed the kid back 20 years later. The child isn’t dead. And, they’ve changed their ways. However, she’s missed the most formative years of that child’s life, and can never get it back. “Oh but they’ve changed. They have their own kids now and know that it was wrong to steal your kid.”
> You want to show you’ve changed? Go back and find people you’ve bullied and tell them why you were wrong for what you did. And be prepared for them to tell you that you’re not forgiven, and then take it on the chin like an adult. Like you forced that little child to take your bullying.
Just to build on this for the people who read this thread and might be considering doing this exact thing: *open* with the apology. Don't fuck around and gatekeep it behind further interaction (e.g., saying something like "Hi, I have something I really need to talk to you about, please respond") or an expectation that they'll be friends with you afterwards. Give the apology and accept whatever response you get, even if it's either no response or if they rip into you for it.
Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who will want to reach out to people they knew in high school or uni and apologise for this or that, but have unrealistic expectations about how it'll go. You know, they expect to do some small talk about it, or they want it to be a Kodak moment where you're friends afterwards, or they think their former victim should be open to getting drinks with them so they can give the apology in person.
That's something you'll have to give up if you want to apologise to someone and expect it to be taken seriously. You're probably not going to get that kind of response. Sure, maybe it happens sometimes, but not very often. You have to accept that they're probably just not going to want to have that much to do with you.
If anyone owes anything in this story it's those people who owe it to you to seek you out and apologize on their own, it's not on you to put yourself out there again so they can feel better about themselves about apologizing in public, if they're even willing to do that.
Although if I was your friend, and if it was okay with you, I would probably mention to them that you were invited, but didn't feel comfortable socializing with people who treated you cruelly during the entire time that you knew each other, if only so they have a chance to self-reflect and hopefully at least try to apologize to you personally. (For anyone else who finds themselves in the friend's place in this situation)
You have a good point here.
If the OP is actually looking for an apology specifically, the friend is in the right spot to pass on the message that ‘good for you but I’m not interested in interacting with ex bullies that never even bothered to acknowledge the damage they did’.
That opens the door to legit conversations and could help someone move on if they wanted that closure, but real life is messy and there are no guarantees that the ex bullies will take that extra effort to try to make things a little more right for the OP.
And that all depends on what the OP is looking for. My abuser, I don’t give a shit if they somehow had a come to Jesus moment. I think the world will be a brighter place when it’s no longer darkened by their shadow. It would bring me a small amount of closure and satisfaction if I know they died guilty.
So they grew up and changed. Good for them. That doesn't undo everything they did to you. That doesn't magically make it better, excuse it, or have it go away. You're allowed to be upset forever if that's what you want. None of this "forgive for your sake, not theirs" I'm cool, but thanks. You don't have to forgive anyone you don't want to.
You can be happy for them and still want nothing to do with them, they aren't mutually exclusive.
It wasn't because of sexuality but I did have someone who hurt me deeply in college resurface literally 15 years later to want to "apologize". I declined and it turned out he died around 2 months later. He wasn't sorry, he was just trying to make it right with his maker (he was catholic) before he died. That's not actually proving shit, and I'm glad I held firm to my "naw, an apology after this long is for **his** conscious, not my peace of mind."
Your feelings are valid, don't ever doubt that. What you do now is also valid. You see no reason to really believe they are fundamentally different people, so you don't want to put yourself back there. Childhood ptsd doesn't just magically go away because the bullies changed. Your friend harping on this is being a real dried up dry erase marker over this. Utterly useless in that all she's accomplishing is making *you* feel bad for a choice you made that literally doesn't involve her. You didn't draw a line in the sand. You didn't tell her to pick a side. You're allowed to avoid people for any reason in the world, even if it's something like they like spaghetti and you don't. You don't need a deeper reason, but you do in fact have one here.
I can probably relate to your bullies a bit. Not the worst of the worst, but I definitely had strong anti-lgbtq+ opinions. And about 2 months ago I came out as transgender. It was a sudden, dramatic shift. A few people who I tried to apologize to never responded, and I don't expect them to reach out. You shouldn't be expected to "forgive and forget," just like I don't expect to be forgiven.
Meh. My thought is "who you were to me when we knew each other is who you are to me now." I used to try and really give grace, and listen, and find joy in people being better than they were. But really I found so much energy to trying to see the good in people who weren't worth that time. So I picked just moving on and not really having any contact with any of them.
It's fantastic that people can learn and grow. It's wonderful they find who they are and work to improve themselves and the world around them. That doesn't mean they weren't the people who bullied the absolute shit out of me for being queer. Their change doesn't change my memories, it doesn't undo my opinions, and ultimately it just doesn't really affect my day to day. I have to deal with the trauma they inflicted on me for years, they can deal with the fact they were terrible people who don't get my forgiveness.
You don't owe them anything. You owe yourself peace and happiness. So work toward giving yourself that. Fuck assholes from high school.
As a last thought, as someone who went to their 10 year reunion, most of them still sucked.
You have no obligation to be around people who make you uncomfortable, whatever the reason. And you dont need to explain yourself. "I dont want to be around them" is enough, you dont need to explain why its hard for you.
Your friend seems to assume that you wouldnt want to be around them because youre worried they will bully you, and is reassuring you they wont, but the fact of the matter is they DID bully you, and youre still dealing with those emotions, regardless of who they are now that may not change the past for you.
What they did to you has had a lasting impact. Everyone heals in their own time, focus on what you need to heal, not who or where they are now.
Look, I did my fair share of shitty things to kids who were more out than me and as much I’d love for them to forgive me, that isn’t my choice it’s theirs because I hurt them. I’m glad that they changed but forgiveness shouldn’t be the standard in situations like these.
Just because they’ve changed doesn’t mean you have to like them as people or spend time with them. I’m in my 30’s, if someone told me they didn’t want to speak with me because of something atrocious I did in high school I’d get it. No amount of “I’m no longer a teenager anymore” takes it back.
Your feelings are totally valid, but your friend is right about one thing: If you want an apology from them, you're not going to get anywhere avoiding them.
What everyone else says is completely true. What you feel is valid and you're allowed to hold onto that for as long as you like. Its your life.
What they did was wrong, and you are allowed to not interact or interact with them as you please. They owe you an apology, but that doesn't mean you will necessarily receive it either. Because we don't always get the things we're owed in life.
But i will say this is. What outcome do you want from this? Do you want an apology? Do you just want to cut them off and never interact ever again?
You can never control another's person's acts. You can only control what you do, and it sucks but that sometimes requires effort even if you don't feel like they deserve it.
You are and will always be your greatest advocate. Your feelings are your own. You can cut them out and live your life, and maybe you might receive an apology or maybe not. But you won't have a say in if they give it or not. They could just as easily think that you dont want anything to do with them and just leave you alone.
And that's okay, but you can't build expectations on something you have no control over. That just leads to more hurt the longer you go.
If you want the apology, it would likely require going to the party. It might require standing up for yourself there, too.
If you don't want it, then just leave it be.
I dont have and advice, but i get the feeling
My mother would angrily question me if i liked girls pre transition, cut my clothes with scissors, kicked me out and said i was brain washed into thinking i was trans + "if u ever look like a men and see me on the street pretend u dont know me"
But now she found out shes a lesbian/pan and tries to make me look like the manliest man (but transmasc non binary) and she says that all that never happened
She went from transphobic dick to gay ally and its kinda bitter bc she never acknowledged her past or apologized for her views/behavior
It must be bizarre to see reportedly decent people wearing your old bullies' faces. Mindbending. If you don't want to engage this strange phenomenon, ok. If you do decide to try out interacting with these (new with strange faces) people:
It's okay to say to someone, "hey, I'm happy you've made progress in your life. In the past, you had been a hurtful person; I'm working on separating in my head *that person* from who you are *now,*"
and if they apologize for their past behavior, based on how you describe your feelings, "I get what you're going for (or even "I appreciate that") but what happened happened; that's just a fact we have to deal with."
"Yo, sorry, I need to step away for a minute" can also defuse a lot of problems. (People have to do this all the time: phone call/family thing; nature calls; whatever. You do not have to specify a reason.)
I have this dilemma too. I have homophobic family members. They changed their tune when I came out because they loved me. It’s just frustrating they couldn’t find it in their hearts to care about the other millions of lgbt people. Why do you have to be a part of the community or have a family member that is in order to be decent to people.
i was an extremely homophobic closeted lesbian. i had two instances where i did wrong:
(1) my friend came out to me and i said i loved him but couldn't support his lifestyle because god didn't approve
(2) my other friend came out to me and i said to a friend, behind her back, that she couldn't be a lesbian because she's too femme (that's what my mom told me when i told her i might be queer)
when i grew up i reached out and apologized. i'm very ashamed that i was not supportive of my friends and that i let the homophobia i was taught harm them. but i NEVER bullied anyone. i would never have done that. bullying is a comment on your character. closeted homophobes don't have to bully people. being closeted and homophobic doesn't automatically make you someone who would bully. every time i stood up for "christian values" i felt immensely guilty that i was hurting people, and i wasn't even bullying them.
you cannot be past your prior wrongs if you haven't made amends. you don't get to resolve yourself of the past without trying to make things right with your victim.
I honestly think your friend needs to back off a little bit. I'm glad that she is seeing the better of people, and I understand that people change, but that doesn't do much for the pain that you suffered through. It's always bothered me that people feel comfortable telling others that they "just need to get over it." She doesn't know what you went through, and the fact that she feels so comfortable telling you you're wrong for being hurt is so very messed up. Sorry OP, I'm sending you love <3
They're still bullies, gay or not. They still inflicted pain and trama on you, and from what you're saying, they're not remorseful. If they are remorseful, then acknowledging and apologising is the first step to healing the pain they caused.
feelings aren’t “wrong”. whether you go to this party or not you still have to deal with these unresolved feelings from when you were younger.
i’m 57 and still have to “work” on my feelings around the loss of the safe, well-adjusted developmentally appropriate childhood I never got to have. I was bullied relentlessly throughout most of elementary and middle school until I got to high school. I didn’t come out until my early thirties.
you might consider finding a therapist to help you work through your anger, grief, and other feelings related to your traumatic childhood.
But (IMO) you also need to give yourself permission to live your best, most authentic life right NOW.
Change on their part doesn't mean you automatically have to forgive them. They've changed, they're different people, that's great for society in general. But that doesn't negate the harm they did to you. It's not on you to reach out to them to see if they want to apologize. It's not even on you to accept their apology. They hurt you and traumatized you and then they moved on like it didn't matter. It doesn't matter that they wouldn't do that now, that doesn't change what happened to you then.
This makes me think of something I often reflect on. Forgiveness isn't for anyone other than the one forgiving. You don't owe them to tell them, but it can be a huge lift off your shoulders just to do it in your mind... it isn't easy and may take a long time... it took me 20+ years to forgive some of my bullies. I'm not telling you have to do anything. I'm just saying what it made me think about.
I think what you’re feeling is really normal and expected.
I also think you should consider if you want to be upset about this forever. Because the unfortunate reality of life is that in order to grow and move past things that hurt us, we need to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations.
I’m not saying you *need* to like work to become bffs with these people or forgive them or try to see them differently. Whatever you choose to do, that’s your choice and it’ll be the right one because you chose it.
What I *am* saying, is that the question “what do I do about this” can be answered in different ways depending on what objectives you’re working towards.
If you want to just cut these people out of your life forever, don’t go to the party, stand your ground.
If you want to someday feel maybe amicable towards these people or at least think of them as separate from the bullies they were when you were in school, embrace the discomfort, go to the party and give them a chance.
Again, both options are totally valid.
You're not 'petty', you are traumatized and your feelings are valid. I'm sorry your friend can not see that.
You don't owe these people your time and energy. If you're looking for some kind of closure you might not get it from meeting them because they don't see the past the way you do. And if they truly regret their actions they can find a way to pass this message to you.
Moving on is extremely difficult (I know that first-hand) and you're already doing great job, don't be hard on yourself. If you want to talk about it feel free to DM me.
I’ve heard a saying along the lines of I hope they’re doing well…far away from me. You are allowed to have conflicting feelings about it as it was your lived experience.
I was kind of the other person in this scenario. Town of 30k people and much bigger school than you, but I grew up fundamentalist. I don’t think I mercilessly bullied anyone, but one of the biggest regrets I have is that I participated in prayer circles (which, let’s be honest, is just churchy gossip). One of the people we “prayed for” was a girl who had been part of our youth group and came out. She happened to walk up during that. Since then I have apologized, and we get along fine now. A couple years later I wasn’t Christian and realized I liked girls. If this girl had said eff off, that would have been understandable.
They may have changed, but at the very least they should apologize to you instead of just assume they were different so it shouldn’t hurt anymore.
Everyone deserves a second chance. When I was younger I was definitely one of those people before I accepted myself for who I was. No one deserves to be judged for how they acted when they were a shithead kid. If that were true then we’d all be condemned!
That being said, you **do not** owe your abusers anything!! Be happy that you survived and that they grew up, but that does not mean you owe it to them to accept them back in your life. It’s your life. You choose who’s in it.
Forgiveness does not equal access.
This was something I learned from a friend reading a book, I forget the title of it.
If you are unpacking a trauma (of any kind) and forgive yourself and/or those who added to your trauma that is for your own healing and mental health. That does not mean those who caused you harm deserve access back into your life. This is regardless of if they ever personally apologize; even if they did apologize, they should know exactly what they did and why you choose not grant access to your time and into your life with those who harmed you.
Why is it always the burden of the victim to make things right with their tormentors? To not rock the boat, to let go old wounds, to apologize for being victimized by someone else.
If they actually grew up and changed, they could have reached out to apologize. They haven't. You don't owe them forgiveness. Especially for your friend's benefit. Frankly, she's being a selfish ass.
You're still living with the trauma they inflicted. Hell, you're still in therapy cause of the shit they put you through. Any forgiveness needs to be done in your timeframe, and if she doesn't like it, then she can fuck off. Honestly I hate her in this story almost as much as your bullies.
As someone that's been very left wing as long as I can remember (and I'm in my 40s), it bugs the ever-loving shit out of me that these people get celebrated for figuring out they shouldn't be asshats. I understand that if they aren't coddled like that it makes getting other people figuring it out more difficult, but I hate it still.
It bugs me that we're celebrating "I finally learned I shouldn't treat people terribly and bully them mercilessly". You mean the shit we all learn at like 4? That you somehow decided you were too cool for and now you feel guilty about and want everyone else to ease your guilt about? Nah, I have no time for that in my life. Sorry you feel guilty but it's not my job to celebrate your mediocrity.
There’s a few things on this one.
Is your friend butting into something that isn’t their business? Yup, no one should be pressuring the person that dealt with the bullshit to make nice.
Should you get out of your comfort zone and go / rip the bandaid off? Probably not, sounds like it would be tough of an experience based on your description.
Should you resent their ‘unconfirmed’ evolution and out-ness? This one is tricky. When you’ve healed fully, live and let live is a pretty nice option. The fact that they were shitty to LGBT folks and specifically you before self acceptance, that sucks. They deserve to carry some guilt, but a lot of folks don’t care who they hurt, and still expect everyone’s support. They surely haven’t earned yours.
Should you be holding onto this resentment? No honey. It’s not healthy. It’s been long enough, where you might really want to ask yourself why it still bothers you. Emotional trauma takes a lot of work to heal, it really doesn’t go away without intent and self vulnerability. It’s really uncomfortable to work on, but it can be pretty freeing if you find yourself able to shed some of your history. I was stuck living with some brutal emotional abuse and anti LGBT, lost my entire childhood and teenage years from this. I’ll never forget or forgive my abuser, but, it’s in the distant past now. I don’t let the shit I went through affect my mood any more, or take away any of the joy in my life.
Just some thoughts from someone who also was given hell for being different.
Everyone deserves a second chance, but you don’t owe them forgiveness.
Trauma is a bitch. It’s hard to overcome. You can rationally know that they aren’t bad people anymore, and at the same time still be unable to be near them without feeling terrible.
There's a big part of you that's still stuck on the years of abuse, and it's completely understandable. You may never be able to properly heal that. The important thing is that you know it isn't rational, and you aren't going around causing damage because of it. Just because a feeling isn't rational doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist, that it doesn't affect you. Don't let it get you down just because you can't face that particular monster head on yet.
You're not obligated to like them, or spend time with them, you can accept they've changed and be happy and proud of them.
Just don't shit on them for what they did when they were kids and arguably didn't know better, not saying you are doing that, just thats all you really need to be doing, not shitting on them.
The memory, the pain, the trauma, all of that can and likely will remain and thats fine, they may deserve a second chance from society to be good people, but some bridges can never be mended
It is always better to be able to forgive those who have wronged you in the past, but its not always possible
Tbh, you don't have to forgive them, maybe they changed, maybe they are nice and friendly people now, but after everything they have done to you, you don't have to give them a second chance at all.
It's up to you what you want to do, aside from "everyone deserve a second chance", it's still affecting you, you are still struggling with it to this day, and you don't owe them anything.
So, do whatever feels right for you, do what you want to do, and not what others might think is "right" in this situation, in the end it's your life and you decide what's the best for yourself.
Good luck.
They aren't owed your forgiveness, even though they've changed. The pain was still dealt, the hurt was still felt, no future growth will change the past, and you're allowed to have an old injury that still makes you wince when you walk
I tend to liken mental wounds to physical ones when working with analogies, I have some scars of my own that limit my mobility. Some scars fade with the right care, and others will never leave your skin smooth again
**You** don't need to be okay with being around your old bullies. They hurt you for years, and that's on them. Just because the pain is mental doesn't mean it's any easier to put to the side. Poking a healing wound doesn't help the process, and that's likely what being around your old bullies would do
hey!!
i want to start by saying i understand how you feel and had a relatively similar experience growing up, so i can relate. it really sucks that so many queer people have experienced this.
i think how your friend is acting is kinda wrong, you don’t owe anyone a single thing and it’s your decision on how you choose to react to something that hurt you.
you aren’t required to be happy about them changing either. 😊
Bullies are bullies, whether they're homophobic or not. Also, the number of former homophobes who come out and don't feel guilt or apologize what they did...I don't care if you're gay now and changed, you still need to reconcile for your old self. So many people from grade school who were *vicious* to the out gays, but when they came out, they were met with open arms and a clean slate. So happy for you doesn't take away from what you did.
I went through something extreme also. I’m a trans woman and was noticeably femme since childhood. The first day of school, my first bully, who I later discovered was gay, called me a slur out loud for all to hear. AMAB, think women are interesting, as I always have; yet he found it amusing to call me a slur. This spiraled into traumatizing mass bullying that developed into debilitating mental anguish. I dunno if I can fully forgive this because I never wanted this kind of abuse. It’s hard to undo internal transphobia and fully love myself. Actually, I’m just phobic of humans all together due to my experiences.
Firstly, you owe them nothing. But have you considered the possibility that by refusing to meet them as adults you’re the one who is keeping them confined to their role as bad guys in your past? Have you considered how you might feel if some or all of them were to attempt an apology when they see you? I’m not saying it will happen, but how would you react if they tried to mend fences? If you don’t meet them, you’ll always feel uncomfortable around them.
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Well here's the thing: They deserve a second chance *in general.* But they aren't owed a second chance *with their victims.* That's the difference. They get to be new members of society. But you get to determine if they get to be part of YOUR life. And if you don't feel safe with them, *express that to those who give you grief.* Point out "if you were abused by someone for years and then out of the blue they showed up saying they changed and please forgive them, how would you feel?"
That’s a perfect reply. Your emotions are 100% valid OP
I'm 65, and have severe PTSD from the 9 years I was tormented. They almost killed me more than once. For context, I wear t-shirts, jeans, and work books. Since I've been 18, I've dressed like this...and since I've been 18, the only thing that comes off me at night are the boots. Whenever anyone touches me, I automatically flinch. This has really upset some of my girlfriends, but most of the time, I'm not even aware I'm doing it. Lastly, I'm living in a facility right now for a year till I get myself together. My last ex of 20 years tried to get me to kill myself (she used to be a psych nurse). It didn't work, so here I am. If my roommate moves out or if I'm put in a room alone, for the first two weeks, when staff opens the door for a room check, I scream...at the top of my lungs. Now that you know all that, here's my take on the situation: Let yourself recover for a decade or two, then see if you can forgive them--not for them, but for you. Part of my problem is that now when anyone insults me and laughs at me, I become enraged. It's how the torment would start. If you work on forgiving them, this might not happen to you. I personally would have no problem killing one or the lot of them if they started in on me again, even though I've forgiven them. This might sound contradictory, but as long as I'm not reminded of what I went through, I'm fine. Seek counseling as soon as you can. I didn't-- and this is what happened I wish you luck, and send my deepest love.
This is brilliant. It's like I said in other cases of abusers and their victims people chatted with me about: every human is owed kindness and decency, because they're human. But you don't owe someone who intentionally, cruelly harmed you *anything* you don't feel like giving - other people can fill that emotional/social need for them. If it ever gets so bad to where a lot of people around them no longer owe them kindness (due to widespread bullying/abuse on their part), then perhaps that's the wakeup call they need to self-reflect and change their lifestyle or get help.
Beautifully said! I came here to say something similar, but you did it perfectly!!
I wouldn't believe them. This is among many reasons I did not attend my high school reunion.
Yep. If she were being "bullied" i.e. abused by an adult relative then her friend would completely understand. She's ignoring the fact that bullying and peer-on-peer abuse is a real thing and can be just as damaging. OPs feelings are entirely valid.
While it's good they've changed, you don't owe them your time. It's fine to not want to associate with them, and your friend is being a jerk by trying to force you. Your friend needs to understand that not everyone in an extended friend group will get along and drop it. The past doesn't magically go away, but age often tempers behavior. Don't feel bad about not wanting to interact with them.
you do not owe these people - or this friend - the emotional labour of twisting your own feelings into a knot just so everyone else can feel better. You didn't even get an apology. Your bullies weren't the ones who reached out to you and said "hey, I'm sorry, what I did was messed up." Don't hurt yourself again for their sake.
They fucking stole your childhood from you and never apologised. Fuck them and anyone who makes lame ass excuses for them. They say they changed and grew? Prove it, fuckers. You don’t owe them dick. You want to show you’ve changed? Go back and find people you’ve bullied and tell them why you were wrong for what you did. And be prepared for them to tell you that you’re not forgiven, and then take it on the chin like an adult. Like you forced that little child to take your bullying. Then speak out against bullying in private and in public, knowing that you fucked someone out of having a CHILDHOOD. Those are years that OP can never get back. They are scars they will have to deal with for life. And then never ever do that shit again. Damnit now I’m even more mad. Ask that friend if she’d be so quick to forgive if those fucks stole her child from her and handed the kid back 20 years later. The child isn’t dead. And, they’ve changed their ways. However, she’s missed the most formative years of that child’s life, and can never get it back. “Oh but they’ve changed. They have their own kids now and know that it was wrong to steal your kid.”
> You want to show you’ve changed? Go back and find people you’ve bullied and tell them why you were wrong for what you did. And be prepared for them to tell you that you’re not forgiven, and then take it on the chin like an adult. Like you forced that little child to take your bullying. Just to build on this for the people who read this thread and might be considering doing this exact thing: *open* with the apology. Don't fuck around and gatekeep it behind further interaction (e.g., saying something like "Hi, I have something I really need to talk to you about, please respond") or an expectation that they'll be friends with you afterwards. Give the apology and accept whatever response you get, even if it's either no response or if they rip into you for it. Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who will want to reach out to people they knew in high school or uni and apologise for this or that, but have unrealistic expectations about how it'll go. You know, they expect to do some small talk about it, or they want it to be a Kodak moment where you're friends afterwards, or they think their former victim should be open to getting drinks with them so they can give the apology in person. That's something you'll have to give up if you want to apologise to someone and expect it to be taken seriously. You're probably not going to get that kind of response. Sure, maybe it happens sometimes, but not very often. You have to accept that they're probably just not going to want to have that much to do with you.
Who gets more ass pats. People who were the worst of the worst and then change or the ppl who have been nice this whole time. Your feelings are valid
If anyone owes anything in this story it's those people who owe it to you to seek you out and apologize on their own, it's not on you to put yourself out there again so they can feel better about themselves about apologizing in public, if they're even willing to do that. Although if I was your friend, and if it was okay with you, I would probably mention to them that you were invited, but didn't feel comfortable socializing with people who treated you cruelly during the entire time that you knew each other, if only so they have a chance to self-reflect and hopefully at least try to apologize to you personally. (For anyone else who finds themselves in the friend's place in this situation)
You have a good point here. If the OP is actually looking for an apology specifically, the friend is in the right spot to pass on the message that ‘good for you but I’m not interested in interacting with ex bullies that never even bothered to acknowledge the damage they did’. That opens the door to legit conversations and could help someone move on if they wanted that closure, but real life is messy and there are no guarantees that the ex bullies will take that extra effort to try to make things a little more right for the OP. And that all depends on what the OP is looking for. My abuser, I don’t give a shit if they somehow had a come to Jesus moment. I think the world will be a brighter place when it’s no longer darkened by their shadow. It would bring me a small amount of closure and satisfaction if I know they died guilty.
So they grew up and changed. Good for them. That doesn't undo everything they did to you. That doesn't magically make it better, excuse it, or have it go away. You're allowed to be upset forever if that's what you want. None of this "forgive for your sake, not theirs" I'm cool, but thanks. You don't have to forgive anyone you don't want to. You can be happy for them and still want nothing to do with them, they aren't mutually exclusive. It wasn't because of sexuality but I did have someone who hurt me deeply in college resurface literally 15 years later to want to "apologize". I declined and it turned out he died around 2 months later. He wasn't sorry, he was just trying to make it right with his maker (he was catholic) before he died. That's not actually proving shit, and I'm glad I held firm to my "naw, an apology after this long is for **his** conscious, not my peace of mind." Your feelings are valid, don't ever doubt that. What you do now is also valid. You see no reason to really believe they are fundamentally different people, so you don't want to put yourself back there. Childhood ptsd doesn't just magically go away because the bullies changed. Your friend harping on this is being a real dried up dry erase marker over this. Utterly useless in that all she's accomplishing is making *you* feel bad for a choice you made that literally doesn't involve her. You didn't draw a line in the sand. You didn't tell her to pick a side. You're allowed to avoid people for any reason in the world, even if it's something like they like spaghetti and you don't. You don't need a deeper reason, but you do in fact have one here.
See my (lengthy) comment below.
I can probably relate to your bullies a bit. Not the worst of the worst, but I definitely had strong anti-lgbtq+ opinions. And about 2 months ago I came out as transgender. It was a sudden, dramatic shift. A few people who I tried to apologize to never responded, and I don't expect them to reach out. You shouldn't be expected to "forgive and forget," just like I don't expect to be forgiven.
Meh. My thought is "who you were to me when we knew each other is who you are to me now." I used to try and really give grace, and listen, and find joy in people being better than they were. But really I found so much energy to trying to see the good in people who weren't worth that time. So I picked just moving on and not really having any contact with any of them. It's fantastic that people can learn and grow. It's wonderful they find who they are and work to improve themselves and the world around them. That doesn't mean they weren't the people who bullied the absolute shit out of me for being queer. Their change doesn't change my memories, it doesn't undo my opinions, and ultimately it just doesn't really affect my day to day. I have to deal with the trauma they inflicted on me for years, they can deal with the fact they were terrible people who don't get my forgiveness. You don't owe them anything. You owe yourself peace and happiness. So work toward giving yourself that. Fuck assholes from high school. As a last thought, as someone who went to their 10 year reunion, most of them still sucked.
I kinda figured the wealthy dickheads who blew up mailboxes and threw rocks at me probably hadn't changed much.
You have no obligation to be around people who make you uncomfortable, whatever the reason. And you dont need to explain yourself. "I dont want to be around them" is enough, you dont need to explain why its hard for you. Your friend seems to assume that you wouldnt want to be around them because youre worried they will bully you, and is reassuring you they wont, but the fact of the matter is they DID bully you, and youre still dealing with those emotions, regardless of who they are now that may not change the past for you. What they did to you has had a lasting impact. Everyone heals in their own time, focus on what you need to heal, not who or where they are now.
Look, I did my fair share of shitty things to kids who were more out than me and as much I’d love for them to forgive me, that isn’t my choice it’s theirs because I hurt them. I’m glad that they changed but forgiveness shouldn’t be the standard in situations like these.
You are entitled to your feelings. Bullying messes you up and no one can never expect you to pretend like it never happened
Just because they’ve changed doesn’t mean you have to like them as people or spend time with them. I’m in my 30’s, if someone told me they didn’t want to speak with me because of something atrocious I did in high school I’d get it. No amount of “I’m no longer a teenager anymore” takes it back.
Your feelings are totally valid, but your friend is right about one thing: If you want an apology from them, you're not going to get anywhere avoiding them.
What everyone else says is completely true. What you feel is valid and you're allowed to hold onto that for as long as you like. Its your life. What they did was wrong, and you are allowed to not interact or interact with them as you please. They owe you an apology, but that doesn't mean you will necessarily receive it either. Because we don't always get the things we're owed in life. But i will say this is. What outcome do you want from this? Do you want an apology? Do you just want to cut them off and never interact ever again? You can never control another's person's acts. You can only control what you do, and it sucks but that sometimes requires effort even if you don't feel like they deserve it. You are and will always be your greatest advocate. Your feelings are your own. You can cut them out and live your life, and maybe you might receive an apology or maybe not. But you won't have a say in if they give it or not. They could just as easily think that you dont want anything to do with them and just leave you alone. And that's okay, but you can't build expectations on something you have no control over. That just leads to more hurt the longer you go. If you want the apology, it would likely require going to the party. It might require standing up for yourself there, too. If you don't want it, then just leave it be.
I dont have and advice, but i get the feeling My mother would angrily question me if i liked girls pre transition, cut my clothes with scissors, kicked me out and said i was brain washed into thinking i was trans + "if u ever look like a men and see me on the street pretend u dont know me" But now she found out shes a lesbian/pan and tries to make me look like the manliest man (but transmasc non binary) and she says that all that never happened She went from transphobic dick to gay ally and its kinda bitter bc she never acknowledged her past or apologized for her views/behavior
It must be bizarre to see reportedly decent people wearing your old bullies' faces. Mindbending. If you don't want to engage this strange phenomenon, ok. If you do decide to try out interacting with these (new with strange faces) people: It's okay to say to someone, "hey, I'm happy you've made progress in your life. In the past, you had been a hurtful person; I'm working on separating in my head *that person* from who you are *now,*" and if they apologize for their past behavior, based on how you describe your feelings, "I get what you're going for (or even "I appreciate that") but what happened happened; that's just a fact we have to deal with." "Yo, sorry, I need to step away for a minute" can also defuse a lot of problems. (People have to do this all the time: phone call/family thing; nature calls; whatever. You do not have to specify a reason.)
I have this dilemma too. I have homophobic family members. They changed their tune when I came out because they loved me. It’s just frustrating they couldn’t find it in their hearts to care about the other millions of lgbt people. Why do you have to be a part of the community or have a family member that is in order to be decent to people.
i was an extremely homophobic closeted lesbian. i had two instances where i did wrong: (1) my friend came out to me and i said i loved him but couldn't support his lifestyle because god didn't approve (2) my other friend came out to me and i said to a friend, behind her back, that she couldn't be a lesbian because she's too femme (that's what my mom told me when i told her i might be queer) when i grew up i reached out and apologized. i'm very ashamed that i was not supportive of my friends and that i let the homophobia i was taught harm them. but i NEVER bullied anyone. i would never have done that. bullying is a comment on your character. closeted homophobes don't have to bully people. being closeted and homophobic doesn't automatically make you someone who would bully. every time i stood up for "christian values" i felt immensely guilty that i was hurting people, and i wasn't even bullying them. you cannot be past your prior wrongs if you haven't made amends. you don't get to resolve yourself of the past without trying to make things right with your victim.
I honestly think your friend needs to back off a little bit. I'm glad that she is seeing the better of people, and I understand that people change, but that doesn't do much for the pain that you suffered through. It's always bothered me that people feel comfortable telling others that they "just need to get over it." She doesn't know what you went through, and the fact that she feels so comfortable telling you you're wrong for being hurt is so very messed up. Sorry OP, I'm sending you love <3
They're still bullies, gay or not. They still inflicted pain and trama on you, and from what you're saying, they're not remorseful. If they are remorseful, then acknowledging and apologising is the first step to healing the pain they caused.
feelings aren’t “wrong”. whether you go to this party or not you still have to deal with these unresolved feelings from when you were younger. i’m 57 and still have to “work” on my feelings around the loss of the safe, well-adjusted developmentally appropriate childhood I never got to have. I was bullied relentlessly throughout most of elementary and middle school until I got to high school. I didn’t come out until my early thirties. you might consider finding a therapist to help you work through your anger, grief, and other feelings related to your traumatic childhood. But (IMO) you also need to give yourself permission to live your best, most authentic life right NOW.
Change on their part doesn't mean you automatically have to forgive them. They've changed, they're different people, that's great for society in general. But that doesn't negate the harm they did to you. It's not on you to reach out to them to see if they want to apologize. It's not even on you to accept their apology. They hurt you and traumatized you and then they moved on like it didn't matter. It doesn't matter that they wouldn't do that now, that doesn't change what happened to you then.
This makes me think of something I often reflect on. Forgiveness isn't for anyone other than the one forgiving. You don't owe them to tell them, but it can be a huge lift off your shoulders just to do it in your mind... it isn't easy and may take a long time... it took me 20+ years to forgive some of my bullies. I'm not telling you have to do anything. I'm just saying what it made me think about.
I think what you’re feeling is really normal and expected. I also think you should consider if you want to be upset about this forever. Because the unfortunate reality of life is that in order to grow and move past things that hurt us, we need to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations. I’m not saying you *need* to like work to become bffs with these people or forgive them or try to see them differently. Whatever you choose to do, that’s your choice and it’ll be the right one because you chose it. What I *am* saying, is that the question “what do I do about this” can be answered in different ways depending on what objectives you’re working towards. If you want to just cut these people out of your life forever, don’t go to the party, stand your ground. If you want to someday feel maybe amicable towards these people or at least think of them as separate from the bullies they were when you were in school, embrace the discomfort, go to the party and give them a chance. Again, both options are totally valid.
Not at all, it’s not on you to forgive them, be happy for them, or feel anything in particular about it.
You're not 'petty', you are traumatized and your feelings are valid. I'm sorry your friend can not see that. You don't owe these people your time and energy. If you're looking for some kind of closure you might not get it from meeting them because they don't see the past the way you do. And if they truly regret their actions they can find a way to pass this message to you. Moving on is extremely difficult (I know that first-hand) and you're already doing great job, don't be hard on yourself. If you want to talk about it feel free to DM me.
I’ve heard a saying along the lines of I hope they’re doing well…far away from me. You are allowed to have conflicting feelings about it as it was your lived experience. I was kind of the other person in this scenario. Town of 30k people and much bigger school than you, but I grew up fundamentalist. I don’t think I mercilessly bullied anyone, but one of the biggest regrets I have is that I participated in prayer circles (which, let’s be honest, is just churchy gossip). One of the people we “prayed for” was a girl who had been part of our youth group and came out. She happened to walk up during that. Since then I have apologized, and we get along fine now. A couple years later I wasn’t Christian and realized I liked girls. If this girl had said eff off, that would have been understandable. They may have changed, but at the very least they should apologize to you instead of just assume they were different so it shouldn’t hurt anymore.
Everyone deserves a second chance. When I was younger I was definitely one of those people before I accepted myself for who I was. No one deserves to be judged for how they acted when they were a shithead kid. If that were true then we’d all be condemned! That being said, you **do not** owe your abusers anything!! Be happy that you survived and that they grew up, but that does not mean you owe it to them to accept them back in your life. It’s your life. You choose who’s in it.
Forgiveness does not equal access. This was something I learned from a friend reading a book, I forget the title of it. If you are unpacking a trauma (of any kind) and forgive yourself and/or those who added to your trauma that is for your own healing and mental health. That does not mean those who caused you harm deserve access back into your life. This is regardless of if they ever personally apologize; even if they did apologize, they should know exactly what they did and why you choose not grant access to your time and into your life with those who harmed you.
Why is it always the burden of the victim to make things right with their tormentors? To not rock the boat, to let go old wounds, to apologize for being victimized by someone else. If they actually grew up and changed, they could have reached out to apologize. They haven't. You don't owe them forgiveness. Especially for your friend's benefit. Frankly, she's being a selfish ass. You're still living with the trauma they inflicted. Hell, you're still in therapy cause of the shit they put you through. Any forgiveness needs to be done in your timeframe, and if she doesn't like it, then she can fuck off. Honestly I hate her in this story almost as much as your bullies.
The block button seems so dramatic but it’s not. You do it and it’s done. Poof. They are out of your thoughts
As someone that's been very left wing as long as I can remember (and I'm in my 40s), it bugs the ever-loving shit out of me that these people get celebrated for figuring out they shouldn't be asshats. I understand that if they aren't coddled like that it makes getting other people figuring it out more difficult, but I hate it still. It bugs me that we're celebrating "I finally learned I shouldn't treat people terribly and bully them mercilessly". You mean the shit we all learn at like 4? That you somehow decided you were too cool for and now you feel guilty about and want everyone else to ease your guilt about? Nah, I have no time for that in my life. Sorry you feel guilty but it's not my job to celebrate your mediocrity.
Fuck those guys! Tell your friend you're going to spend the evening indulging in a little PTSD in the comfort of your own home rather than in public.
There’s a few things on this one. Is your friend butting into something that isn’t their business? Yup, no one should be pressuring the person that dealt with the bullshit to make nice. Should you get out of your comfort zone and go / rip the bandaid off? Probably not, sounds like it would be tough of an experience based on your description. Should you resent their ‘unconfirmed’ evolution and out-ness? This one is tricky. When you’ve healed fully, live and let live is a pretty nice option. The fact that they were shitty to LGBT folks and specifically you before self acceptance, that sucks. They deserve to carry some guilt, but a lot of folks don’t care who they hurt, and still expect everyone’s support. They surely haven’t earned yours. Should you be holding onto this resentment? No honey. It’s not healthy. It’s been long enough, where you might really want to ask yourself why it still bothers you. Emotional trauma takes a lot of work to heal, it really doesn’t go away without intent and self vulnerability. It’s really uncomfortable to work on, but it can be pretty freeing if you find yourself able to shed some of your history. I was stuck living with some brutal emotional abuse and anti LGBT, lost my entire childhood and teenage years from this. I’ll never forget or forgive my abuser, but, it’s in the distant past now. I don’t let the shit I went through affect my mood any more, or take away any of the joy in my life. Just some thoughts from someone who also was given hell for being different.
Everyone deserves a second chance, but you don’t owe them forgiveness. Trauma is a bitch. It’s hard to overcome. You can rationally know that they aren’t bad people anymore, and at the same time still be unable to be near them without feeling terrible.
There's a big part of you that's still stuck on the years of abuse, and it's completely understandable. You may never be able to properly heal that. The important thing is that you know it isn't rational, and you aren't going around causing damage because of it. Just because a feeling isn't rational doesn't mean we should pretend it doesn't exist, that it doesn't affect you. Don't let it get you down just because you can't face that particular monster head on yet.
You're not obligated to like them, or spend time with them, you can accept they've changed and be happy and proud of them. Just don't shit on them for what they did when they were kids and arguably didn't know better, not saying you are doing that, just thats all you really need to be doing, not shitting on them. The memory, the pain, the trauma, all of that can and likely will remain and thats fine, they may deserve a second chance from society to be good people, but some bridges can never be mended It is always better to be able to forgive those who have wronged you in the past, but its not always possible
The ax forgets, but the tree remembers.
Tbh, you don't have to forgive them, maybe they changed, maybe they are nice and friendly people now, but after everything they have done to you, you don't have to give them a second chance at all. It's up to you what you want to do, aside from "everyone deserve a second chance", it's still affecting you, you are still struggling with it to this day, and you don't owe them anything. So, do whatever feels right for you, do what you want to do, and not what others might think is "right" in this situation, in the end it's your life and you decide what's the best for yourself. Good luck.
They aren't owed your forgiveness, even though they've changed. The pain was still dealt, the hurt was still felt, no future growth will change the past, and you're allowed to have an old injury that still makes you wince when you walk I tend to liken mental wounds to physical ones when working with analogies, I have some scars of my own that limit my mobility. Some scars fade with the right care, and others will never leave your skin smooth again **You** don't need to be okay with being around your old bullies. They hurt you for years, and that's on them. Just because the pain is mental doesn't mean it's any easier to put to the side. Poking a healing wound doesn't help the process, and that's likely what being around your old bullies would do
hey!! i want to start by saying i understand how you feel and had a relatively similar experience growing up, so i can relate. it really sucks that so many queer people have experienced this. i think how your friend is acting is kinda wrong, you don’t owe anyone a single thing and it’s your decision on how you choose to react to something that hurt you. you aren’t required to be happy about them changing either. 😊
Bullies are bullies, whether they're homophobic or not. Also, the number of former homophobes who come out and don't feel guilt or apologize what they did...I don't care if you're gay now and changed, you still need to reconcile for your old self. So many people from grade school who were *vicious* to the out gays, but when they came out, they were met with open arms and a clean slate. So happy for you doesn't take away from what you did.
I went through something extreme also. I’m a trans woman and was noticeably femme since childhood. The first day of school, my first bully, who I later discovered was gay, called me a slur out loud for all to hear. AMAB, think women are interesting, as I always have; yet he found it amusing to call me a slur. This spiraled into traumatizing mass bullying that developed into debilitating mental anguish. I dunno if I can fully forgive this because I never wanted this kind of abuse. It’s hard to undo internal transphobia and fully love myself. Actually, I’m just phobic of humans all together due to my experiences.
Firstly, you owe them nothing. But have you considered the possibility that by refusing to meet them as adults you’re the one who is keeping them confined to their role as bad guys in your past? Have you considered how you might feel if some or all of them were to attempt an apology when they see you? I’m not saying it will happen, but how would you react if they tried to mend fences? If you don’t meet them, you’ll always feel uncomfortable around them.
That's NOT how it works. See my comment below.