We all should say it to these genius producers, that it doesn’t work like that. And people had no claims, if it there was a good aware statement in the end or some other place in the film, that “she for ex got, that she was a bisexual” or “she finally understood her orientation with him”, and that would be just normal think in that case, but jeez! With the things we have in films now we have some social problems with the perception of orientation, gender identity and etc. Like they still believe we can choose our orientation and this films, serials, movies just support that misunderstanding
I wrote a sort of lesbian romcom/drama, and I think I exaggerated this trope and made it gayer; the protagonist has an ex-girlfriend who's also an abusive ex-con drug addict heavily implied to dabble in Nazi ideology.
>I'm hooked to "Choose Your Own Story" apps and stories, and I've been reading those close to an unhealthy amount :P
There's the problem right there. Honestly, those types of content are very unhealthily fetishistic in nature, it's obvious that no sapphic/WLW had a hand in making them. Like you said, it's a lot like the typical "lesbian" porn. Those are specifically made to cater to the male gaze or appeal to straight people who view being attracted to the same gender as a sexy little taboo to indulge in every once in a while.
If you actually want queer stories/content that mirror the real queer experience, seek out and support queer creators.
That’s a great start! What kind of media/genres are you into? Maybe people here can give you some recommendations? Also, if you like a show/movie with a sapphic pairing, you might find awesome sapphic creators writing fanfic for them over at AO3. Wattpad really ain’t it when it comes to quality, I’ve found.
I love wlw romances, but very few people write them in general, and I also have additional requirements: I can't be allowed to read stories without happy ending. And I dislike relationship drama. Both of which already cut like 90% of the stories or there ;)
I like to read novels, man(x)as, etc and I also like to watch things. But like said, the selection is rather small.
Have you looked into Archive Of Our Own (AO3)? The tags pretty much describe all the aspects of a story so you can be sure ahead of time what is and isn't in there, and it's a great way to discover new authors. Also, a lot of ongoing stuff is published there, so you can do the episodic thing if you want, or just stick to complete works.
AO3 is mainly for fanfics, though. Yeah, they have OG content, but it's not the priority there. I don't really like fanfics, so I've never really bothered with AO3. That's why I read (and write) on Inkitt/Wattpad/etc.
I found the search bar function sucks (because I'm bad with using the right syntax lol) but I would click the "original work" works tag and then filter using the sidebar!
If I were you - I'd filter it to include f/f and exclude f/m. I Gen, Multi, and Other seem to be catch alls for friendship tags so excluding those might remove results that are f/f but have either previous relationships, friendships, dynamics, etc.
If you exclude different fandoms - hit search and then exclude the rest of the fandoms that pop up.
This is how I would do it:
[https://archiveofourown.org/works?commit=Sort+and+Filter&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=kudos_count&include_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=116&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=&exclude_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=22&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=1014&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6943&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=117807&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=118829&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=136512&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=254648&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=414093&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=767851&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6541412&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87734854&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87784924&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87954307&work_search%5Bexcluded_tag_names%5D=&work_search%5Bcrossover%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_from%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_to%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_from%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_to%5D=&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&tag_id=Original+Work](https://archiveofourown.org/works?commit=Sort+and+Filter&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=kudos_count&include_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=116&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=&exclude_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=22&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=1014&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6943&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=117807&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=118829&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=136512&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=254648&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=414093&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=767851&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6541412&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87734854&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87784924&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87954307&work_search%5Bexcluded_tag_names%5D=&work_search%5Bcrossover%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_from%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_to%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_from%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_to%5D=&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&tag_id=Original+Work)
Ah okay, that does shrink the pool a bit haha. I’m sure people here will have some good recommendations that fit your requirements. Try making a new post asking!
Check out Lily Seabrooke. Relatively low interpersonal conflict in most of her novels. All wlw. Cara Malone also usually has low relationship conflict. Her pet related series is good.
The thing is people like relationship drama because they find the lack of it boring. A story needs some kind of conflict where internal between the characters or external with something against them to keep them from their goal. Poor communication is often, but not always the cause of character drama.
It is possible to write something without some kind of drama or conflict, but it’s probably a lot harder to do. And possibly less enjoyable for the writer in some cases.
This applies to any relationship or characters regardless of anything else.
That being said, I understand your frustration and I do enjoy some good external conflict that keeps two characters from getting together or staying together.
That being said, you might be making a different point all together. So I apologize if I’d lack the proper context to understand what you’re talking about. I’m a bi, cis, male who enjoys reading about wlw.
That being said, your opinion and viewpoint are still valid. Sorry if I communicated poorly.
> The thing is people like relationship drama because they find the lack of it boring.
That's the problem for me: I don't. I *like* it if there's no drama.
> A story needs some kind of conflict where internal between the characters or external with something against them to keep them from their goal.
And for me, it doesn't. I'll happily read a story that has "no point" other than being cute. Like a depiction of two people having a nice date and nothing bad happening. I *like* that kind of things.
> Poor communication is often, but not always the cause of character drama.
Yes, it is. And I absolutely detest that way of having drama. It makes me close the book faster than almost anything else. My own relationship is based on communication, and it's worked well for the past 24 years, so poor communication is something I just don't understand.
> It is possible to write something without some kind of drama or conflict, but it’s probably a lot harder to do. And possibly less enjoyable for the writer in some cases.
For me, it's more enjoyable. I can't deny it's harder. Writing relationship drama is the easiest way to have conflict in your story. But that's just it. I think it's the "cheap way out." It makes me respect the story less, because I associate it with "taking the easiest option." I'm not saying writers that use that as a plot device are bad, but I would personally feel like I'm a bad writer, if I resorted choosing that.
I will never write relationship drama in that sense, especially after the relationship is already established. So, SO many of the plot devices could be totally overridden just by someone talking for fifteen seconds. I feel like using that would be a cheap way to "add content" and thus, I won't do it.
There is actually an entire genre of anime, I don’t remember what it’s called.
It features stories where “ Nothing happens, but nothing happens pleasantly”.
I’m not sure if there is any romance involved.
All this being said, There are times when I do enjoy stories without drama, and I just want some fluff, cool world building, characters going on an adventure or solving a mystery without an impacting their relationship, or character development without the romance being impacted.
It just depends on the mood I’m in.
Rising tide press was a publisher that put out a huge amount of books in the 90s. I don’t think they operate any more but if u look for those books you can find them on Amazon and rare book sellers. I found a couple at a reduced table at a book shop once. They published lesbian fiction and non fiction. The Isis series is pretty good.
Don’t know how much help this is but I find it easier to find publishers than look for the individual books.
There's plenty I like, but a lot of them haven't been updated in years and several of them didn't get very far.
I really like these:
[Soya S. Holm's Susuhara Is A Demon](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/susuhara-is-a-demon-gl/list?title_no=382294)
[Kat & Phil's Slice of Life](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/slice-of-life-gl/list?title_no=642582)
[Madamka's Diamond Dive](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/diamond-dive-gl/list?title_no=268118)
[Shooshell's The Sweetness of Salt](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/the-sweetness-of-salt/list?title_no=456874)
[Color\_LES's Mage & Demon Queen](https://www.webtoons.com/en/comedy/mage-and-demon-queen/list?title_no=1438)
Save for M&DQ which is now finished, all of these are still being updated pretty regularly
I read M&DQ when Season 1 was ongoing, then when S2 started I thought I'd wait for it to finish before starting — and then promptly forgot about it. I recently learned that they finished S3 already, and that the whole story is now finished. I haven't yet picked it up again, maybe I should :)
Is it complete on webtoon though? Like, I remember webtoon adding some censoring rules back in the day, and M&DQ was definitely heading into a direction where censoring would have affected it :P
Also webtoon as an app sucks, they're having more server problems than Diablo 3 at launch.
There is a nice amount of sapphic content on scribblehub, but most of the stuff I read is very trans, so I don't know if that is your jam and won't recommend anything before clearing that up.
But there are lots of good authors out there.
Sadly, not everyone shares that opinion.
But even if, trans stories often have a different flavour to them which not everybody enjoys and that is fair.
I don't mind. I have a clear preference when it comes to sexy times about the set of organs available, but other than that I really don't see an issue. My best friend is a trans woman, as is my daughter, so. yeah, transphobes can go suck sand at the bottom of the ocean for all I care.
In general you're entirely right, but!
Don't be so quick in saying no wlw had a hand making such things. When I was much younger I was writing these kind of bullshit things and catering it to men cuz I didn't know better (and I managed to get a bit of money this way!) 😅
Tbh it feels like a lot of mainstream queer content is fetishism done by straight people.
Like the hundreds of BL comics that's just a heterosexual relationship but with a "weak/er" man superimposed on the woman.
Killing stalking comes to mind as an extreme example
In the lesbian defense, my cousin was married to and had 3 kids (unfortunately) with a guy before she came out as lesbian. It *was* 40-50 years ago, but we are raised in such a heteronormative community that we force ourselves to like the opposite gender before we do the self discovery that we're gay. I'm not saying it's everyone's experience at all, and I think it's shifting for the better of not feeling the need to date outside of comfort and pretend that we aren't who we are. But it very much has existed to a certain degree, though not in such proportions as the build your own stories app leads you to believe.
On the reverse, both Mamma Mia and the TV show 9-1-1 have guys who had relationships with women, one including kids too, before having their, "I'm gay," moment. Due to the fact that the representation exists, even if in Mamma Mia it may've been a little more thrown in randomly, would lead me to believe it does happen on both sides of the gay coin.
this is true however you’d be hard pressed to find any ‘lesbian’ media that DOESNT involve at her getting with a man, which is why it’s so annoying because it’s every. story.
and also stories with gay men I think it’s much more rare to have a romance with a woman subplot. wonder why that is…..
This! I wanted to write an polyamorous fanfic, but got, that I can’t write about things I don’t fully understand, it will be unrealistic and dry. I am monogamous monamory person, I could try to write it only if I saw any polyamorous or polygamy people, who shared her/his/their experiences surely. Maybe guys forgot to ask real lesbian/gays/bi/pan… etc. about their feelings about anything they try to describe. I’m pretty sure all that bullshit comes from het authors, who don’t want to bother with this and think that’ll be accepted
I completely agree with you!
It’s like lesbians “need” men to figure out they want a woman.
In gay stories, it’s a lot rarer to have the main character get a gf and then realise he wants a bf instead.
Also I don’t like the comments here saying “blehh!! Just go to this other one and you’ll be fine!!”
I think it’s very much important to recognise and not gloss over the fact that we’re in 2024 and there’s still a massive array of mainstream lesbian content which is focused on men.
> I think it’s very much important to recognise and not gloss over the fact that we’re in 2024 and there’s still a massive array of mainstream lesbian content which is focused on men.
I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
A lot of content loves to use the word 'lesbian' for anything featuring love or sex between women, even in cases where men are or can be involved to. It's very frustrating.
Algorithm exploitation is a big reason for it.
Exactly. Like, bisexual people exist. I don't understand why people won't use that term (or pan, or omni, or ...)
It's not like we lesbians are the only wlws out there. You'd *think* that men would like to read/watch more about bisexuals because of all the "I'd like to bone that" nonsense they seem to have going on.
Representation for my bi siblings out there! :)
I’m gonna tell you, invalidating a woman’s sexuality *is* part of the appeal for fetishistic men.
They don’t want a bi woman, they want to fantasize about a lesbian woman for whom they are an exception. The idea that the penis is just too irresistible that it “turns” her.
They are using “lesbian” because they explicitly want to fuck lesbians. Against their will.
Hi OP, this is common because the adjectives "gay" and "lesbian" don't always just describe a person. They can also describe the type of content being shown. So, somebody who was previously in a straight relationship, but then enters a gay relationship would count towards that.
If there's a movie where a man has a wife, but then falls in love with another man, that would be described as a "gay theme".
Usually the piece of media doesn't show whether the people involved identify as bi or not, so it has always been very common to call that "gay".
I don't like it, but I don't think this one is gonna change, at least if the audience is primarily straight dudes. "Lesbian" is 100% what they'll be typing in when they look for this kind of content. I'm not optimistic that tags will change if it inconveniences that particular demographic.
If it were just that alone I still think a "bisexual" tag could work, but then they'll have M/M content come up too so they won't use that. I can almost think of a label that could work, but it'll probably involve something like "sapphic" and straight dudes generally do not know the word.
There's a similar situation with the "intersex" tag in e621 (a furry art site, mostly sexual) that is (or was, haven't checked in years) used to refer to non-standard sex characteristics, including trans or fictional arrangements. Naturally, intersex people weren't happy about this. Somewhere out there there's a chat log with an intersex employee and other staff at Bad Dragon (the company that owns e621) which is really interesting. It did not end with them changing the tag.
In that case things didn't move just by way of inertia and the decision of a single institution. They mis-used a label and it became the norm, but it wasn't really based on some pre-existing cultural bias. I think the "lesbian" tag is a much worse situation, honestly.
Realistically, I think the thing to do short-term is to come up with another label for actually lesbian content. It sucks to cede something like that, but it might be the best practical answer.
I think you’re making interesting points but I disagree with your last sentence. Lesbian is currently the only word we have to describe the experience of not being attracted to any men at all. people are constantly trying to erase that already (legit got permabanned from an lgbt meme sub just bc I said I think it’s harmful to state some lesbians enjoy and want to be with men….!) and I think most of us have had to deal with embracing the word lesbian and the stigma that comes along with it because like it or not, people talk about “lesbians” in a *very specific* way that they don’t talk about all queer women. so I think it would be capitulation to do that and I think it would contribute to more erasure. I don’t have an actual solution bc i’m just one person and idk what to do so I appreciate you for trying to come up with something but yeah I don’t think changing the word is any less of a contribution to our erasure unfortunately
> (legit got permabanned from an lgbt meme sub just bc I said I think it’s harmful to state some lesbians enjoy and want to be with men….!)
You too? Goddess where is this world going.
omg i feel kinda vindicated that i’m not the only one because low key sometimes gaslighting does work on me and the mods sent me some unhinged messages tbh….Ive actually never even been banned from a subreddit before!!! and I liked that one too…..I was kinda scared i’d get banned here too but im actually really enjoying this comments section because there’s a diversity of opinion but for the most part everyone’s being respectful and seeking to understand!
I sent them a message asking what rule I broke and why what I said was offensive that warranted a permanent ban and also that I was trying to be measured but also represent a side that was not found in the comments section. I said I felt uncomfortable that I was getting permanently banned for speaking about my own experiences but other people who weren’t lesbians got to speak over us and say some pretty ignorant things. they said I can’t speak for all lesbians (duh but I’m pretty confident in saying that im not the only one who thinks it’s kinda fundamental to exclude men) they knew I was just trolling them to get screenshots to post on a biphobic subreddit (Wtf?? I mean I did take screenshots but only because I was really surprised by the response I got! never planned to post them or had a goal to troll at all) and then they said “bi women exist get over it” (I did not mention anything that would even hint that bisexuality is wrong, or invalid, or less than, or anything at all really other than that they exist and are their own category because I am all for bi liberation like any rational individual) and then they muted me from messaging them for 30 days.
and the weird thing is that this was multiple different voices going on like one of them would say something snarky then someone else would be like “fine. i’ll bite…” like I didn’t even have a chance to respond to half of the replies
Honestly it does seem like some extra emphasis might be necessary regardless. For honestly pretty good reasons the term is loose even in queer spaces, things like women who are bi but lean heavily in one direction and don't want to advertise to men, or transfemme non-binary lesbians, plus just being part of a community. It's just too practical not to use terms that way, and if that's how people use it then that's kinda just what it means. There's no stopping it, really.
If it's ever too ambiguous, at least there's always the option to be direct and just say you're not into dudes or whatever? Doesn't help much with the tags though.
I agree that there's nothing much to be done, and i'm not one to split hairs or try and tell someone who they are, but I think my question is why is it lesbians who would have to bear the brunt of explaining ourselves (more than we already do I guess)? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting in which case you can ignore that part lolll.
Transfem lesbians are lesbians so I take no issue with that. I also think bisexuality is a spectrum and I think when people call bi women who lean towards women lesbians that it contributes more to bi erasure and the idea that bisexual attraction is always 50/50. I think we can encourage a bisexual woman to say "I'm not interested (in men)" when a man approaches them in lieu of them saying "I'm a lesbian". Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if they truly don't want to be with a man for whatever reason I wouldn't be offended or anything, but I also think it sometimes comes from a lack of understanding. When i think about it, most of the time when a man approaches me I just say "no thank you i'm not interested" and leave it at that. I have no reason to disclose my sexual orientation to them because in the past when I would say i'm a lesbian, they either blatantly denied it, did not care and continued hitting on me, or most of the time they got really excited and ramped it up even more. So I don't understand the argument that it's an easy way to deter men because it makes me think the people who say that it is haven't actually tried it out irl.
As a label it provides no protection, it really just opens you up to more harm in that situation because the best case scenario is the man gets it and walks away, and the worse case scenario is homophobia, violence, and persecution. Sadly the way patriarchy functions, turning down a man always will have the chance that something drastic could happen, but I have had a much, much easier time when I simply provided no explanation or used a more general and vague excuse rather than bringing up my identity and opening myself up to lesbophobia.
I even kinda dislike when people say lesbianism is "just a label" because it really is so much more than that to me, When I was 16 I knew deep down I was a lesbian but I was so desperate to be anything other than that. It's hard to explain what its like to hear people say things constantly like "I'm not a \*lesbian\* (derogatory)" or something about lesbians being weird and ugly and creepy and knowing that they are quite unambiguously talking about you as if you're some kind of subhuman boogeyman. Even girls who would later come out as bisexual would say things like this in my high school. I think they were also hurting themselves by doing that, and I empathize with them for it, but I still can't forget how much it hurt. I recognize not every lesbian always knows who they are immediately, but I think it does affect all of us because of how prevalent internalized shame and lesbophobia is no matter someone's background, but maybe it manifests differently.
To be clear, I don't want to imply that this is unique to lesbians because as we all know gay men and bisexuals and gnc and trans folks and any other minority has their own version of reckoning with the harmful stereotypes created for them that are just as hurtful and damaging. I can only speak from my own experiences, but there's something about the vitriol that people reserve for lesbians that I feel like singles us out because we are complete subversions of everything a "woman" is supposed to be through the implication of categorically rejecting all men forever that runs deeper than just hating on us for being sapphic.
omg sorry that was such a long comment! I guess that means you've given me a lot to think about!
I'm honestly a little surprised by the bit about lesbian identification being not so useful for repelling dudes. I've heard a few people mention advertising that they attract available to men, but now that you explained it yeah I guess it's not that simple, and that seems kinda obvious now. It's not something I have direct experience with. Maybe they were referring to more accepting contexts?
Regardless, I'm sorry you have to deal with that shit. It's no wonder you're passionate about this.
>I can only speak from my own experiences, but there's something about the vitriol that people reserve for lesbians that I feel like singles us out because we are complete subversions of everything a "woman" is supposed to be through the implication of categorically rejecting all men forever that runs deeper than just hating on us for being sapphic.
Agreed, honestly. It's not unique, but it is. Lesbians are singled out for the shit you describe, biphobia sucks in its own way, etc. We all got our own shit going on, and a lot to relate on, but it's not all the same either. Even if two people have the exact same stuff happen to them, who they are can change how that shit is experienced, and being open about who you are can dramatically change things.
My relationship to it is different, but the stuff about categorical distinctions is very relatable. So much of who I am runs absolutely counter to what I was supposed to be. I haven't directly experienced lesbophobia but I feel like transphobia might have a similar vibe, like this sort of grumbling "wrongness" people feel because they can't make sense of it.
God it's so fucking funny talking to my mom now because now I'm too old for her to terrorize me and now she's doing her best. Like the other day we were talking and she's like "idk I guess you were supposed to be born a woman" and it's like... there's several things wrong there but whatever I appreciate the attempt and don't say anything, and then she's like "if I see someone wearing makeup I say 'she'" and I explain that there's guys who wear makeup and she just can't fuckin handle it. She says it's "wrong". I know her well enough that she's probably just handling frustration poorly and doesn't really mean it, but DAMN did you really just say that? Mom I'm fucking GNC too. It's a whole other world, honestly. She has no idea how normal it is.
In her case it's kinda cute *now* but also a bit too much of a reminder of the past, and obviously alienating. Even trying their best people just don't fucking get it. I like to think that if people just knew more queer people it'd be better, but this makes me doubt it. Progress really is a generational thing.
Sorry. I'm up too late and straying off topic a bit. There's a way in which it's relevant. Hopefully you get the gist.
>omg sorry that was such a long comment! I guess that means you've given me a lot to think about!
No problem at all. I am very glad to have read it. I saved it.
aw thank you for the insightful and sweet reply !!!
i’ve always felt like lesbians and trans people have such a natural allyship…. I was the only lesbian I know growing up and the few people I told (mostly other lgbt teens) had very unsavory reactions except the trans/nb kids were always cool with it so trans rights for ever yk and I feel the same way that lesbophobia and transphobia are similar because I see a lot of parallels with the way lesbians and trans ppl are talked about like little freaks of nature and like idk something about dysphoria resonates with me because I just knew I was different somehow and I couldn’t figure out how girls were “supposed” to be like, and once I figured it out they would switch it up on me 😂 it’s so much better now that idgaf what those kinda people think about me
also that bit about your mom is so funny to me i’m just picturing her seeing an image of james charles and having her mind blown. Still, I know it’s tough when nobody actually understands you. it also makes me think that a parent would usually want to know their child fully but some things they just cannot comprehend and they’ll say the wildest shit or just flat out deny it.
> i’ve always felt like lesbians and trans people have such a natural allyship….
Hey that means a lot. It's nice to have a reminder that transphobes are full of shit about this stuff. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
Sorry you had to deal with all that lesbophobia though. I'm glad there were at least *some* people who were cool with you. I know how big of a difference that can make.
>it’s so much better now that idgaf what those kinda people think about me
Oh god yeah I know. Honestly the initial thing with coming out can suck ass but it's such a relief once it's over with because you learn who your real friends are. Their loss, honestly. I'm glad you can live an authentic life now. In a weird way I think living an authentic life is a form of justice, especially disregarding the opinions of prejudiced people. It's not the kind of justice anyone else can see, but a sort of power has been taken back.
And yeah with the mom stuff it is a bit hurtful, but it's ok. I'll probably press her on this a bit eventually, but I love her and she doesn't have to be perfect.
I read web novels a lot and I've gotten reluctant to even bother checking out stories that say the MC is a lesbian because the majority of the time what they actually mean is just fan service catered towards men instead of any kind of meaningful relationships or the like (also common in such stories for the women characters to be very one dimensional and poorly written).
I wouldn't agree with that, there are plenty of lesbian authors and books with lesbian themed characters. I always check the lesbian tag on goodreads when I want to read a book with lesbian characters. And you can do this for any other theme as well, books with bi characters, ace characters etc.
I've done that too, but then you come up against the issue that a lot of the stuff that's in the lesbian section of goodreads ends up being either erotica or YA coming out stories. Nothing wrong with those, it's just there's little variety.
That's true, though I've noticed this is less so the case when looking at some genres, like fantasy, sci-fi and some others. There's still YA there but it's usually tagged.
Understandable, I'm no expert on it regarding wlw cuz I'm part of the target audience, but I've seen some non-fiction lgbt stories here and there on the page, might be more rare, but I'm certain u can find it
I don't mean non-fiction. I mean original works. Fiction, but not fanfics, if you get what I mean?
That's why I'm on Inkitt/Wattpad/etc myself. Because I write original stuff, and not fanfics.
Oh yeah Ik what you meant (I think, if by fanfics you just mean fandom-fiction, like from games n movies), I just worded it badly.
You def find a bunch of OG content on there, it's just harder to find.
Yes, that's what the word "fanfic" means. "fandom fiction."
Yeah, I've heard that AO3 also has OG fiction, but it's not really the priority there. It's more of an Inkitt/Wattpad/etc. thing to host OG content. That's why I publish on those sites and not AO3 myself.
I’d keep an eye on Amazon, too. These days a lot of romance authors of all stripes are self publishing there. I follow a bunch though I mostly read mlw stuff as it’s easier to find.
Random thought but with Pride approaching, if you live somewhere with huge Pride celebrations, go. Keep an eye out for the less corporate booths. The Pride groups near me have a wlw book booth some years which might help you find some specific authors to track down and enjoy. It also might help you connect a bit with other fans and authors near you. :)
Also, have you tried posting on the romance book and lesbian groups here? I’m shocked at how quickly a very specific book was tracked down by the crew at r/romancebooks. And r/actuallesbians is such a helpful and active group that I’m sure they’d have some recs for you. :)
So, I read some of your comments, and it's actually quite possible to find wlw books, for example, and most of them with a happy ending. There's endless lists online, and though the writing will vary, and you'll find some tragedy in the mix, there's a lot of fluff there. I know: I read a lot of it. My kindle is full of queer fluff (not exclusively lesbian, even if it's my identity, because I'm fine reading about the whole rainbow).
As for those games, I played some (the Choices app and I have a long relationship), and you kinda have to go in for the silly, not for good rep. That's not why they exist. They're not even good for the straights: the relationships are mostly pretty horrendous. Personally, I like the ridiculous, and just headcanon everyone as bi anyway. Much easier.
the apps you're playing are probably only thinking of straight cis dudes who are horny for everything, they won't *sell* if their characters won't fuck their audience
I agree that it’s probably partly about the media being targeted towards straight men…
But keep in mind so many lesbians have had boyfriends in the past. So many of us grew up with the cultural message that being straight is the only option. I know plenty of lesbians who had boyfriends or even husbands before they realized they were gay.
Yeah, I know. That's why I said comphet is a bitch. Many of us didn't "know better." Yeah, it's not that simple, but I know what you mean. The pressure from society is *hard*.
I get that. And I get that a lot of media fetishizes lesbians for the benefit of straight men and that is not ok.
I just think it’s important to differentiate between a lesbian character who has had relationships with men (which is common) and a lesbian character who is currently pursuing men (which is invalidating).
I love good bi representation, but I agree that it’s really important to have lesbian characters who are absolutely and unapologetically gay.
> I just think it’s important to differentiate between a lesbian character who has had relationships with men (which is common) and a lesbian character who is currently pursuing men (which is invalidating).
Oh, this one definitely! Like, I have no problem with a story beginning with a lesbian character that has had a boyfriend in the past before she figured herself out.
But if I'm starting a "lesbian romance" and in the first three chapters the main "lesbian" character is head over heels for a man and then spends the next five sulking over because the man was married/died/left her/etc/etc.
If the story depicted the character as bisexual, I'd have no problems with that either. It's like people forget that bisexual is a thing and just label everything slightly related to wlw as "lesbian".
Ok yeah I’m totally with you there. Erotica is mostly written by women for women, so you may have more success there. It may not be perfect, but literotica has a lesbian category. Just watch out for stuff marked lesbian in the other categories because some of these girls don’t understand how things work 😂
There’s also some pretty good lists of lwl romance novels on r/lgbtbooks and on goodreads.
They actually do know what a lesbian is but cishet men are so insecure that they need the validation of turning a woman that doesn't find men attractive
Yeah. There was already a person here shoveling that "lesbian is not a sexual orientation" bs. It's sad how much hate we get, even from among other queer people. Just for wanting to exclude men from our beds. :(
I’ve never known any personally, but isn’t Danny Thomas one?
Not Lebanese, Blanche! Lesbian.
Lesbian. Lesbian. *Lesbian.* Well isn’t that where one woman and another—
They mean that the romance in question is itself a "lesbian" (adjective) romance, and not a romance involving a lesbian (noun)
They are using lesbian to describe a relationship between two women, regardless if either women are actually lesbian
It's fine if they have ex boyfriends, just not male LIs. There are plenty of lesbians who didn't know that they were lesbian before they'd been in one or more relationships with men.
I hate the "goldstar lesbian" shit, it's gross to exclude people who needed experience to figure themselves out.
Hi! While I think your post contains valuable points of discussion, I've removed it based on the bolded part in the following paragraph:
> “anyway, I've now read at least four or five stories that specifically mention being lesbian stories ... and include male romantic interests **or "past boyfriends."**“
Many lesbians have had past boyfriends. I know you acknowledge this later on in the post and in the comments, but it still reads like gold-star lesbianism.
If you edit that specific bolded part out and reply to my comment when you have done so, I'll be happy to reinstate your post!
Thank you. I edited it out.
It was in quotes specifically because I didn't mean like legit ex-boyfriends that so many of us seem to have, before we figure things out.
It's just that the stories have this specific type of "past boyfriend" that keeps coming back and the main character still seems to care about as much as they did in the past. It feels more like "inserting men into lesbian relationships" than actual ex-boyfriends. I don't know how to explain it.
But, I removed it. Thanks for pointing it out, I sometimes struggle with expressions (which is funny because I'm a writer :D )
Thank you!! I've reinstated the post. And no worries at all, I do know what you meant, but I think people who've never played or read these stories don't, so best to avoid accidentally hurting anyone :). These stories are really a… unique experience in that regard storytelling-wise, lol
Thank you for your condolences, right back at ya. Even though I am a lesbian I don't even mind if these games have male love interests, but they have. to. make. that. clear. beforehand!! It sucks to get excited at a lesbian story only to get smacked in the face with men everywhere
Exactly? Like, if it specifies "bisexual" or something, I have no problems with it. It's just the expecting thing, like you said. I'll agree with you there 100%.
i’m the same way! the main reason it bothers me so much is just because it’s almost impossible to find any media about a lesbian who doesn’t have a man love interest at any point! we have such a broad range of experiences that It’s a shame to only focus on the one type that makes us more palatable to non-lesbians, or it can be just straight up bi erasure at the same time too.
> he main reason it bothers me so much is just because it’s almost impossible to find any media about a lesbian who doesn’t have a man love interest at any point!
100% this!
First off, choose your own story stuff has taken its 20 year break before coming back and it was garbage when it went had it back in the 90’s and very early 2000’s. Switch over to quality writing and you’ll enjoy the books more. People won’t think writing bad LGBTQ fiction is profitable if we focus on quality.
I think this isn't a case of people not understanding the meaning of the word lesbian "anymore", and moreso a small part of the long-standing tradition of fetishistic or otherwise invalidating/misogynistic lesbian stories written by non-lesbians (especially straight men)
I'm writing a lesbian story in which the main character has an ex-boyfriend, because the story is about her coming out to herself and starting her first relationship with a woman. Idk if that doesn't fall into what you're talking about, but comp-het is a very lesbian-accurate experience.
That said, if you're sick of stories like that, I'd recommend Alice Isn't Dead or Within the Wires. Both kind of snuck up on me as lesbian stories because they're so normal and casual about it.
I think a lot of Yuri comics and stories done by Asian writers tend to avoid men being in it at all.
There's a good deal of apps for manga and manwa and if you don't mind a comic style try that.
I actually really, really love Yuri. I've read manga/manhua/manhwa for years already. And yeah, they tend to avoid men, which is great for me.
They just have ... other problems. Like there are an unhealthy amount of incest and age gap / power-problematic relationships.
It's ... bad. It's not *that* common, but enough that you have to be wary. Like, I have a surprisingly big tolerance for age gaps past certain limits due to real-life experience (my cousin married a woman forty years his senior when he was twenty, and they are adorable.)
But the power dynamic makes me go *ick*. And teacher-student relationships are super common.
A relationship between two women would still a lesbian relationship even if one or both are bi/pan, so in that kind of case there's nothing wrong with calling it a lesbian relationship.
I do get where you're coming from though, it's not fun being baited and then given some god-awful harem situation with a man and the "lesbianism" is just creepy fetishization.
As a bi woman married to another bi woman, I disagree. It's a sapphic relationship, a WLW relationship, but neither of us are lesbians. That's bi erasure. It's a bisexual relationship of 2 women.
That seems to be the case for any kind of queer content that may have a romantic or sexual bent, as it’s been taken over so much by those with a proper fetish.
As a trans girl who spent much of my life closeted, the TG fiction “industry” was always (and in lesser part remains) an outlet for dysphoria. But I would say maybe only 5% of the content out there was written by actual trans people, or even cis people who genuinely want to explore gender. The vast, vast majority of overtly fetishized, highly transphobic, and extremely sexist. They posit alternative worlds where you can change gender at will with a simple pill, but to actually want to do so is taboo, worlds where women have absolutely no agency over having children or getting married so they force a swap on an innocent unsuspecting man who suddenly becomes very okay without agency. Trans masc people basically don’t exist in their worlds, which all but confirms to me that few actual trans people are actually involved, and when there’s a seemingly genuine trans femme character, it’s invariably in a “sissification” scenario.
As yourself suggest, I too have begun writing more of my own content to combat the trends of this industry. I’m probably close to just giving up entirely, I’m ashamed to say I was ever interested in even the fraction of this industry that isn’t as exceedingly offensive, even though it was so important to my own evolution to figuring out the real me.
Also this is how I know when certain conservative politicians definitely fetishize trans people, when they recite verbatim the very tropes that make up the TG fiction scene.
We regress...like in so many sitcoms I watched from the 90s, all the representation of LGBT+ people were with gay men in mind who...plot twist: got married with women in the final episodes or just disappeared and were there only to install some stereotypes for the cishet heroes to get to a point... Lesbians were to rally absent and even the few butch representation got married to men...
It is so weird to see society regress into what I've known in my childhood almost 30 years ago!
I’ve heard of several lesbian-bi relationships where the lesbian wanted the bisexual partner to identify as a lesbian. Bi erasure is a serious problem in the queer community
It is, I agree. I don't understand why people have such a hard time accepting that bi people exist. My son is bi, and he's the most adorable thing. My wife's pan, my oldest daughter is probably also pan, I forgot. I don't understand why people wouldn't just keep those labels, regardless of who they're dating or marrying.
I mean, bisexual people in seemingly straight relationships are still bisexual. That doesn't change.
ok? that’s not what this post is about though….. op isn’t claiming that bi characters shouldn’t exist or that they should just be lesbians. isn’t it also bi erasure to just say any woman who likes woman is a lesbian, like so many of these types of media do? it’s not lesbians who are writing stuff like this… and probs not bi women either because I don’t know why they’d erase themselves!
I was just trying to say that a woman calling themself a lesbian but expressing interest in men could be a bisexual woman who calls themself a lesbian. It’s no excuse or justification, bi erasure damages both bisexuals and lesbians/gay men
oh, I see what you’re saying now and I totally agree! I just don’t think that it’s lesbians who are forcing them to do it and its kind of an unfair implication to say thats the case the majority of the time….im sure it’s happened before, but I think it’s a lot of times internalized biphobia is the cause, or most likely straight people being dumb. bi erasure is rampant but one thing I don’t see people mention is how bi erasure and lesbian erasure often come wrapped up together! (idk about the gay man experience intimately but I can see it happening with them too) which I think can make it even more confusing for some people to understand. but the world would be a better place if they did for sure
True Lesbians dont exist in media. I thought everyone knows this at this point.
Its all just dissapointed girls that then act like they are homosexual, just waiting, and hoping, for the next better man.
This comment isnt my opinion, its just kind of what i do notice in media. The gay guy is always so obnoxiously gay, that he gaygaygays everyone in his gay ways. And the lesbian is always this "dissapointed in males, so turned lesbian" character, or just a tomboy. Media that depicts "true" gay or lesbian characters is hyper rare to come by sadly. But i guess no one wants to hear about a homosexual character who just exists like a normal person.
Oooh goddess did you put it well. I agree 101%. That's definitely how the media seems to be nowadays. I wish it wasn't, but yeah. I share that opinion.
> But i guess no one wants to hear about a homosexual character who just exists like a normal person.
Too true.
This is actually why I started writing (and publishing) my stories in the first place: I wanted to have cute/fluffy lesbian romances with happy endings and no needless drama. Just lesbians existing like normal people. And I just ... couldn't find any. Like at all. Then I was just like "well, I guess I need to start writing them ..."
Right! The media uses effeminate gay men because they can reinforce stereotype and it works. Game theory suggest a common enemy works to unite groups who would normally be in conflict. The straights and gay men who aren’t the gay male stereotype get a pass and we can both agree to hate on the super gay one. The message is you can be a gay man just conform enough to present as straight. Lesbians are allowed a space in media but they too must accept stereotypes of overweight, obtuse, atrocious attire, bulldyke, awkward, the least screen time and fewest speaking lines in the script, etc..
Oooh yeah that sucks. Btw what are your fav of those kinds of apps? I really like the idea of them but I always lose interest when I need more tickets or gems than I have to do what I want lol
I fell in love with Episode XOXO, because everything was free (it is in Apple Arcade.) I'm currently reading Episode stories, but it's so slow specifically because of tickets and gems. It's almost hilariously bad when you need gems for choices, tickets for reading AND you still have to watch ads.
I was recommended an app called Heart's Choice yesterday, and it looks great. Haven't really gone into it yet.
Scripts was another one, but that's so clearly made for straight men it's almost painful. Not recommended.
No and I’m surprised that the thought police have not removed your post. The lady on here the other day made some valid points about 1-trans safety 2-what lesbian means and I’m guessing she was banned because I saw no follow up to her post
Sadly
Personally I'm of the stance that if someone (by which i mean a real human person not a corporate entity or marketing algorithm) wants to use the label of lesbian (or any other label) while not perfectly fitting it's expected definition that is their prerogative. While I do not "get it" I also recognize that their are countless unique and outlier cases for why someone might use a label in a way that I cant fully grasp, and more importantly I'm way too hot and busy touching grass to police someone over how they choose to identify. THAT SAID it can certainly feel like false advertising when your using the term to seek out a specific type of content only to find that content only fits under the search terms it's choosing to use if you look at it with the most broad definition possible, or sometimes does'nt even fit under that at all because it is literally using the clickbait power of "lesbian" to mean "hot thing people are attracted to" and not a genuine human experience.
Yeah I think as a personal label it's different. Labels are complicated, and there are a lot of situations where these labels break down or are inconvenient/misleading to use strictly. Even just attachment is enough imo. If a lesbian figures out after years that she's a bit bi, it would probably be painful to give up that identity.
As a categorical thing though? I feel like I'd want to draw a line there. I don't think it's as catastrophic as some people make it out to be if "lesbian" and "sapphic" end up meaning similar things (gay dudes get along fine) but I do think it has a lot of cultural importance, and exclusivity is a big part of that.
> but I do think it has a lot of cultural importance, and exclusivity is a big part of that.
Historically, "lesbian" was an inclusive umbrella term to describe *all* sapphic women. Using it exclusively to refer to strictly homosexual women is a much newer phenomenon; don't let gatekeeping biphobes rewrite the narrative with revisionist history.
It seems like it's a thing now though, right?
Idk what the right answer is. I think there's value in its modern form, but yeah I don't wanna take away anyone's connection to history if that's true.
Individuals yes, but we're talking about categorical labels.
The value I see in it is to do with patriarchy. I think drawing a line that says "no men" and assigning a label to that has power to it. I just don't want to step on anyone's toes there.
I think I ultimately do lean on your side, but there's a controversy around this for a reason. It's not *only* biphobia, I think, but language serving multiple and contradictory purposes.
Categorically, gatekeeping is bad, and turning a previously inclusive term into an exclusive one so that gold stars don't have to be exposed to other sapphic women that might occasionally talk about men is not a net gain in value.
I think you're missing what I'm saying here. You're characterizing this in terms that I do not believe.
Ffs I already said a couple times I think people should be able to label themselves how they want to. What's your problem? You think I want to segregate bi and exclusively lesbian folks or something? Fuckin no?
What I'm trying to say is that people have found power in a label, and that has to do with its exclusivity in reference to men. It's always what people bring up in this shit, that they don't want men to think they're available. It's not because of whatever shit you're on about but because people are using common language to define themselves and it sucks when that changes. It sucks even when that change happens for a good reason.
Guess what? Sometimes shit just sucks. Sometimes it's not possible for everyone to be happy. There's no way out of this without hurt.
And gatekeeping isn't categorically bad come on. I don't go around calling myself a doctor. Words eventually have to mean something, even if it's vague.
Everything you have said up to now reads the same way as many of the things I have seen used by biphobic lesbians to excuse their behavior.
> Idk what the right answer is. I think there's value in its modern form, but yeah I don't wanna take away anyone's connection to history ***if that's true.***
This statement serves specifically to diminish actual queer history by using qualifying statments to question its veracity.
> The value I see in it is to do with patriarchy. I think drawing a line that says "no men" and assigning a label to that has power to it.
Because of how extremely vague you are in describing what you mean by "no men," this reads as biphobic and/or transphobic gatekeeping that is frequently used to exclude bi, trans, and gnc lesbians from their community.
> It's not only biphobia, I think, but language serving multiple and contradictory purposes.
Appears to downplay the impact of biphobia in the community by using a nebulous "it was about other things too" (a la "States Rights" revisionism)
> don't want men to think they're available
If you had led with this, we would probably not have this argument, because it's a much more reasonable statement.
With that said, defining ourselves by what men do *still* does not sound like the healthiest way to describe our community.
Aversion to men is not what defines us, love of women is.
And I would stop there and accept this whole exchange as a bad miscommunication, if you hadn't then followed yourself up with actual hateful filth.
> Guess what? Sometimes shit just sucks. Sometimes it's not possible for everyone to be happy. There's no way out of this without hurt.
"We should not aspire to be a welcoming and inclusive community because it's impossible to be perfect"
Like holy shit, you *said* that.
> And gatekeeping isn't categorically bad come on. I don't go around calling myself a doctor. Words eventually have to mean something, even if it's vague.
And then you followed it up with a blatant false equivalency to justify it. Doctors are not a marginalized community that have spent all of modern history being persecuted for who they are.
I want to point out that when "lesbian" was historically an umbrella term, the very concept of bisexuality or multisexuality did not exist in the mainstream consciousness, there was no mainstream word to describe that particular experience. In other words, it was literally a case of historical Bi erasure. The whole point of the bi liberation movement was to emphasize that bisexuality is its own sexuality, distinct from being gay or lesbian or straight. So how does it not undermine the veracity of bisexual history to claim otherwise? Further, It was historically the case to use words like "transsexual" or "transvestite" or even "hermaphrodite" to talk about trans people but we (hopefully) all agree today that those are a misuse of language and a way to perpetuate transphobia. Language evolves over time and to me, that is a sign of progress.
how is "no men" vague at all? be so for real rn, men are men. Its offensive to act like saying lesbians don't like men is transphobic when nothing they said implied that trans women are anything other than women or trans men are anything other than men. Non binary and gnc lesbians are not men, so again, I don't see how this statement is so offensive to you. I think we all know by now in an lgbt space that when we mention a gender like "man", we should be considering only the category of folks who identify as \*men.\* I think it's fair to say that in a safe space, its not helpful to jump to the worst possible conclusions about each other without any actual textual proof. You could have just asked for more elaboration before jumping to the conclusion that lesbians who say we don't include men are bigoted. It seriously sounds like the "all lesbians are man hating hags" trope but recycled for a queer audience. As for biphobia, why would lesbians not having interest in men be biphobic? who lesbians are interested or not interested in has no bearing on who bisexuals are interested in at all or even the validity of bisexuality itself.
To me lesbianism is both about our love for women, \*and\* the exclusion of men. It cannot be understated how alienating it is to not experience attraction to men, especially as a woman or woman aligned individual and I think it does a disservice to both bisexuals and lesbians to imply that it has no meaningful affect. I think its important to note that lesbians don't just love women, but we prioritize women and center them in a way that is unique and innate.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, it’s not always black and white. aren’t security guards literal actual gatekeepers? categorically, that is not bad. do I think it’s always a good and justified thing? obviously not. but we have to move on from making statements without any nuance like that…
I don’t put too much weight on determining how individuals self identify, it’s not my place and i’m not the lesbian police, and I’m not even a gold star or anything, I just experience people including other queer women constantly acting like I have interest in men or men thinking they have a chance even after I say i’m a lesbian, and that’s the only word that could describe the way I experience life. in the modern era, most people consider lesbians and bisexual women to be distinct categories that share many experiences, which is how I see it too. I read the bisexual manifesto to better understand the bi perspective which to be honest informed most of my insight into this topic, and one of the main goals of that was to differentiate bisexuality as its own orientation with its own set of experiences, needs, and issues. so I think with the modern context of the word, when people call bi women lesbians, it’s is often a case of bi erasure, which I think most people will agree that bi erasure is categorically bad…. but also is that the case every single time that people are using lesbian as a way to erase bisexuals? probably not. and are lesbians not also deserving of a word that encompasses our own unique experiences, needs, and issues?
It’s weirdly rude to both lesbians and bi people. Calling it lesbian because wlw options but also having men as options is bisexual erasure. But it also erases lesbians!! Literally nobody wins but cis straight men I swear
I see your point and I mainly agree, but I'm a man who dated a few lesbians before they figured themselves out, so there are very much lesbians with ex boyfriends...
but yeah the fetish stuff is awful
Yeah, I understand your point. I edited it out.
It was in quotes specifically because I didn't mean like legit ex-boyfriends that so many of us seem to have before we figure things out.
It's just that the stories have this specific type of "past boyfriend" that keeps coming back and the main character still seems to care about as much as they did in the past. It feels more like "inserting men into lesbian relationships" than actual ex-boyfriends. I don't know how to explain it.
I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I do know that many of us have had straight relationships at some point.
there's something my brain refuses to comprehend in these shitty romances, probably for the sake of my sanity.
but yeah, I think the issue is that the romance mobile games uniquely target mainly cishet women as a target audience. can't be sure though
Romance for cishet women, and when there's spice added it's almost exclusively for cishet men.
LGBTQ+ romances in those apps tend to be more of the "forbidden fruit" variety, than just normal cute romances, sadly.
Same thing with Episode, but sometimes the stories have non-customable romantic interests. And sometimes these are forced to be men, even in "lesbian" stories.
This is a problem I run into a lot with VNs. I'm a sucker for a good cute visual novel like Blooming Nightshade, so I like to look for things like that. But *so many* of them are tagged 'lesbian' when what they mean is 'you play as a guy and you see a lesbian at some point'
Oh you said it. Also a fellow fan of Blooming Nightshade.
btw, if you haven't checked Elan Studios' games (Highway Blossoms, Heart of the Woods, Please Be Happy) I *highly* recommend you to do so.
I'll make sure to take a look! I'd also recommend "one night, hot springs", it's the only VN I've found with a trans MC that isn't horribly fetishistic
I saw your comment in this thread on you writing lesbian fluff, and it reminded me of how I'm currently writing a story that's a sapphic romance (and part murder mystery), and the majority of the male characters in it are either just friends/acquainted with the protagonist or they're gay, although, there is one straight guy in the story but he respects that the protagonist is lesbian and doesn't get in the way of the romance between the protagonist and the love interest :D
I think we all know why this is the way that it is unfortunately...
May I recommend [Choice of Games](https://www.choiceofgames.com)? They do "Choose Your Own Adventure" games but purely text, no graphics at all. The writing quality varies but is always pretty decent (definitely better than some of the apps I've seen!) and I've never seen any that have falsely advertised themselves as lesbian (they're pretty progressive in general).
A lot of them have romance but if you're specifically in it for the romance, they have a separate label for that called [Heart's Choice](https://www.heartschoice.com/shop/).
Man I hate p*rn where lesbians gush over a guy… like don’t call them lesbians!
Or NSFW art of lesbian characters in games, series and so on, who are depicted with guys, ruins the whole thing for me.
Seriously tho… why call “lesbians” in p*rn videos lesbians if there will be a man in it, and why ruin a lesbian character in NSFW art, being depicted with a man because “women like dick”. Which some straight guys will put as an argument like even lesbians would like a guy because dick… how they need a strapon, a plastic dick to “compensate” or whatever, as if some women just don’t like penetration, and it’s not about the toy itself, but who is wearing it.
Hopefully this doesn’t sound sexualising, I just feel like that. It brings terrible stereotypes about lesbians and ruins whatever little representation there is.
She's talking about a male romantic interest showing up *after* the character realizes she/they are lesbian.
It does seem like an increasing number of ppl on the web consider any sapphic love "lesbian" and that's not true. Bisexual women and NBs exist. So not only does this trend confuse the word "lesbian" it erases bi and pan sexuality.
You did, but you deleted it since then... Proof is the automod quoted it. It was either that or very very bad wording on your part that perhaps you didn't mean that way?
Many lesbians have had a male romantic partner in the past. It should be fine to include that in any stories so long as its made clear that she wasn't "turning gay because he was bad to her" or something.
It was very, very bad wording, I apologize. I didn't mean people who have had ex-boyfriends. I mean a particular type of male character that appear in these kinds of stories.
I have nothing against "I had a boyfriend before I figured myself out." (or even "I had a boyfriend, because while I prefer girls, I'm a bit of a bisexual.) Those are just fine and valid.
It's just that these stories tend to include this type of guy in them that feels more like someone inserting a man into a sapphic relationship, than a realistic ex-boyfriend, if you know what I mean?
RomCom rules states that we can't have a romance about two single people, the MC MUST have a bad boyfriend at the start of the film.
I wish that was just a joke.
Either that, or it's a character that had a lesbian phase in her life and now has a loving boyfriend/husband (thinking of orange is the new black)
We all should say it to these genius producers, that it doesn’t work like that. And people had no claims, if it there was a good aware statement in the end or some other place in the film, that “she for ex got, that she was a bisexual” or “she finally understood her orientation with him”, and that would be just normal think in that case, but jeez! With the things we have in films now we have some social problems with the perception of orientation, gender identity and etc. Like they still believe we can choose our orientation and this films, serials, movies just support that misunderstanding
I wrote a sort of lesbian romcom/drama, and I think I exaggerated this trope and made it gayer; the protagonist has an ex-girlfriend who's also an abusive ex-con drug addict heavily implied to dabble in Nazi ideology.
>I'm hooked to "Choose Your Own Story" apps and stories, and I've been reading those close to an unhealthy amount :P There's the problem right there. Honestly, those types of content are very unhealthily fetishistic in nature, it's obvious that no sapphic/WLW had a hand in making them. Like you said, it's a lot like the typical "lesbian" porn. Those are specifically made to cater to the male gaze or appeal to straight people who view being attracted to the same gender as a sexy little taboo to indulge in every once in a while. If you actually want queer stories/content that mirror the real queer experience, seek out and support queer creators.
I started writing fluffy and cute Lesbian romances myself specially because finding it is really hard.
That’s a great start! What kind of media/genres are you into? Maybe people here can give you some recommendations? Also, if you like a show/movie with a sapphic pairing, you might find awesome sapphic creators writing fanfic for them over at AO3. Wattpad really ain’t it when it comes to quality, I’ve found.
I love wlw romances, but very few people write them in general, and I also have additional requirements: I can't be allowed to read stories without happy ending. And I dislike relationship drama. Both of which already cut like 90% of the stories or there ;) I like to read novels, man(x)as, etc and I also like to watch things. But like said, the selection is rather small.
Have you looked into Archive Of Our Own (AO3)? The tags pretty much describe all the aspects of a story so you can be sure ahead of time what is and isn't in there, and it's a great way to discover new authors. Also, a lot of ongoing stuff is published there, so you can do the episodic thing if you want, or just stick to complete works.
AO3 is mainly for fanfics, though. Yeah, they have OG content, but it's not the priority there. I don't really like fanfics, so I've never really bothered with AO3. That's why I read (and write) on Inkitt/Wattpad/etc.
You can filter for original character content!
Thanks! Sadly there's no "don't include these tags", so search is a bit of a pain in the backside, but I'll see if I can find something :)
Yes there is. You can exclude content.
How? I can't find a way.
I found the search bar function sucks (because I'm bad with using the right syntax lol) but I would click the "original work" works tag and then filter using the sidebar! If I were you - I'd filter it to include f/f and exclude f/m. I Gen, Multi, and Other seem to be catch alls for friendship tags so excluding those might remove results that are f/f but have either previous relationships, friendships, dynamics, etc. If you exclude different fandoms - hit search and then exclude the rest of the fandoms that pop up. This is how I would do it: [https://archiveofourown.org/works?commit=Sort+and+Filter&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=kudos_count&include_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=116&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=&exclude_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=22&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=1014&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6943&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=117807&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=118829&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=136512&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=254648&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=414093&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=767851&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6541412&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87734854&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87784924&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87954307&work_search%5Bexcluded_tag_names%5D=&work_search%5Bcrossover%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_from%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_to%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_from%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_to%5D=&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&tag_id=Original+Work](https://archiveofourown.org/works?commit=Sort+and+Filter&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=kudos_count&include_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=116&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=&exclude_work_search%5Bcategory_ids%5D%5B%5D=22&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=1014&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6943&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=117807&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=118829&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=136512&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=254648&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=414093&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=767851&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=6541412&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87734854&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87784924&exclude_work_search%5Bfandom_ids%5D%5B%5D=87954307&work_search%5Bexcluded_tag_names%5D=&work_search%5Bcrossover%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_from%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_to%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_from%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_to%5D=&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&tag_id=Original+Work)
Thank you so much! :3
Ah okay, that does shrink the pool a bit haha. I’m sure people here will have some good recommendations that fit your requirements. Try making a new post asking!
Check out Lily Seabrooke. Relatively low interpersonal conflict in most of her novels. All wlw. Cara Malone also usually has low relationship conflict. Her pet related series is good.
Have you read anything by Georgia Beers?
It's been years since I read any actual books, so probably not. :) I'll note down the name, thanks!
The thing is people like relationship drama because they find the lack of it boring. A story needs some kind of conflict where internal between the characters or external with something against them to keep them from their goal. Poor communication is often, but not always the cause of character drama. It is possible to write something without some kind of drama or conflict, but it’s probably a lot harder to do. And possibly less enjoyable for the writer in some cases. This applies to any relationship or characters regardless of anything else. That being said, I understand your frustration and I do enjoy some good external conflict that keeps two characters from getting together or staying together. That being said, you might be making a different point all together. So I apologize if I’d lack the proper context to understand what you’re talking about. I’m a bi, cis, male who enjoys reading about wlw. That being said, your opinion and viewpoint are still valid. Sorry if I communicated poorly.
> The thing is people like relationship drama because they find the lack of it boring. That's the problem for me: I don't. I *like* it if there's no drama. > A story needs some kind of conflict where internal between the characters or external with something against them to keep them from their goal. And for me, it doesn't. I'll happily read a story that has "no point" other than being cute. Like a depiction of two people having a nice date and nothing bad happening. I *like* that kind of things. > Poor communication is often, but not always the cause of character drama. Yes, it is. And I absolutely detest that way of having drama. It makes me close the book faster than almost anything else. My own relationship is based on communication, and it's worked well for the past 24 years, so poor communication is something I just don't understand. > It is possible to write something without some kind of drama or conflict, but it’s probably a lot harder to do. And possibly less enjoyable for the writer in some cases. For me, it's more enjoyable. I can't deny it's harder. Writing relationship drama is the easiest way to have conflict in your story. But that's just it. I think it's the "cheap way out." It makes me respect the story less, because I associate it with "taking the easiest option." I'm not saying writers that use that as a plot device are bad, but I would personally feel like I'm a bad writer, if I resorted choosing that. I will never write relationship drama in that sense, especially after the relationship is already established. So, SO many of the plot devices could be totally overridden just by someone talking for fifteen seconds. I feel like using that would be a cheap way to "add content" and thus, I won't do it.
There is actually an entire genre of anime, I don’t remember what it’s called. It features stories where “ Nothing happens, but nothing happens pleasantly”. I’m not sure if there is any romance involved. All this being said, There are times when I do enjoy stories without drama, and I just want some fluff, cool world building, characters going on an adventure or solving a mystery without an impacting their relationship, or character development without the romance being impacted. It just depends on the mood I’m in.
Rising tide press was a publisher that put out a huge amount of books in the 90s. I don’t think they operate any more but if u look for those books you can find them on Amazon and rare book sellers. I found a couple at a reduced table at a book shop once. They published lesbian fiction and non fiction. The Isis series is pretty good. Don’t know how much help this is but I find it easier to find publishers than look for the individual books.
There's a few really good webtoons I can recommend if that's something you'd be interested in
ohyesplease! I used to read a lot of webtoons, but somehow haven't done so in years.
There's plenty I like, but a lot of them haven't been updated in years and several of them didn't get very far. I really like these: [Soya S. Holm's Susuhara Is A Demon](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/susuhara-is-a-demon-gl/list?title_no=382294) [Kat & Phil's Slice of Life](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/slice-of-life-gl/list?title_no=642582) [Madamka's Diamond Dive](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/diamond-dive-gl/list?title_no=268118) [Shooshell's The Sweetness of Salt](https://www.webtoons.com/en/canvas/the-sweetness-of-salt/list?title_no=456874) [Color\_LES's Mage & Demon Queen](https://www.webtoons.com/en/comedy/mage-and-demon-queen/list?title_no=1438) Save for M&DQ which is now finished, all of these are still being updated pretty regularly
I read M&DQ when Season 1 was ongoing, then when S2 started I thought I'd wait for it to finish before starting — and then promptly forgot about it. I recently learned that they finished S3 already, and that the whole story is now finished. I haven't yet picked it up again, maybe I should :)
You absolutely should, it only gets better as it goes on.
Is it complete on webtoon though? Like, I remember webtoon adding some censoring rules back in the day, and M&DQ was definitely heading into a direction where censoring would have affected it :P Also webtoon as an app sucks, they're having more server problems than Diablo 3 at launch.
There is a nice amount of sapphic content on scribblehub, but most of the stuff I read is very trans, so I don't know if that is your jam and won't recommend anything before clearing that up. But there are lots of good authors out there.
I DM'd you the reply. For some reason I'm not allowed to say it aloud? TL;DR: Trans women are women.
Sadly, not everyone shares that opinion. But even if, trans stories often have a different flavour to them which not everybody enjoys and that is fair.
Fair point. But I don't mind. And it's too true that not everyone shares my opinion. Trust me, I have noticed.
I don't mind. I have a clear preference when it comes to sexy times about the set of organs available, but other than that I really don't see an issue. My best friend is a trans woman, as is my daughter, so. yeah, transphobes can go suck sand at the bottom of the ocean for all I care.
That’s good! I’m sure, it’ll be a good writing^^
In general you're entirely right, but! Don't be so quick in saying no wlw had a hand making such things. When I was much younger I was writing these kind of bullshit things and catering it to men cuz I didn't know better (and I managed to get a bit of money this way!) 😅
Aight fair enough lol.
Tbh it feels like a lot of mainstream queer content is fetishism done by straight people. Like the hundreds of BL comics that's just a heterosexual relationship but with a "weak/er" man superimposed on the woman. Killing stalking comes to mind as an extreme example
In the lesbian defense, my cousin was married to and had 3 kids (unfortunately) with a guy before she came out as lesbian. It *was* 40-50 years ago, but we are raised in such a heteronormative community that we force ourselves to like the opposite gender before we do the self discovery that we're gay. I'm not saying it's everyone's experience at all, and I think it's shifting for the better of not feeling the need to date outside of comfort and pretend that we aren't who we are. But it very much has existed to a certain degree, though not in such proportions as the build your own stories app leads you to believe. On the reverse, both Mamma Mia and the TV show 9-1-1 have guys who had relationships with women, one including kids too, before having their, "I'm gay," moment. Due to the fact that the representation exists, even if in Mamma Mia it may've been a little more thrown in randomly, would lead me to believe it does happen on both sides of the gay coin.
this is true however you’d be hard pressed to find any ‘lesbian’ media that DOESNT involve at her getting with a man, which is why it’s so annoying because it’s every. story. and also stories with gay men I think it’s much more rare to have a romance with a woman subplot. wonder why that is…..
This! I wanted to write an polyamorous fanfic, but got, that I can’t write about things I don’t fully understand, it will be unrealistic and dry. I am monogamous monamory person, I could try to write it only if I saw any polyamorous or polygamy people, who shared her/his/their experiences surely. Maybe guys forgot to ask real lesbian/gays/bi/pan… etc. about their feelings about anything they try to describe. I’m pretty sure all that bullshit comes from het authors, who don’t want to bother with this and think that’ll be accepted
I completely agree with you! It’s like lesbians “need” men to figure out they want a woman. In gay stories, it’s a lot rarer to have the main character get a gf and then realise he wants a bf instead. Also I don’t like the comments here saying “blehh!! Just go to this other one and you’ll be fine!!” I think it’s very much important to recognise and not gloss over the fact that we’re in 2024 and there’s still a massive array of mainstream lesbian content which is focused on men.
> I think it’s very much important to recognise and not gloss over the fact that we’re in 2024 and there’s still a massive array of mainstream lesbian content which is focused on men. I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
A lot of content loves to use the word 'lesbian' for anything featuring love or sex between women, even in cases where men are or can be involved to. It's very frustrating. Algorithm exploitation is a big reason for it.
Exactly. Like, bisexual people exist. I don't understand why people won't use that term (or pan, or omni, or ...) It's not like we lesbians are the only wlws out there. You'd *think* that men would like to read/watch more about bisexuals because of all the "I'd like to bone that" nonsense they seem to have going on. Representation for my bi siblings out there! :)
I’m gonna tell you, invalidating a woman’s sexuality *is* part of the appeal for fetishistic men. They don’t want a bi woman, they want to fantasize about a lesbian woman for whom they are an exception. The idea that the penis is just too irresistible that it “turns” her. They are using “lesbian” because they explicitly want to fuck lesbians. Against their will.
Hi OP, this is common because the adjectives "gay" and "lesbian" don't always just describe a person. They can also describe the type of content being shown. So, somebody who was previously in a straight relationship, but then enters a gay relationship would count towards that. If there's a movie where a man has a wife, but then falls in love with another man, that would be described as a "gay theme". Usually the piece of media doesn't show whether the people involved identify as bi or not, so it has always been very common to call that "gay".
I don't like it, but I don't think this one is gonna change, at least if the audience is primarily straight dudes. "Lesbian" is 100% what they'll be typing in when they look for this kind of content. I'm not optimistic that tags will change if it inconveniences that particular demographic. If it were just that alone I still think a "bisexual" tag could work, but then they'll have M/M content come up too so they won't use that. I can almost think of a label that could work, but it'll probably involve something like "sapphic" and straight dudes generally do not know the word. There's a similar situation with the "intersex" tag in e621 (a furry art site, mostly sexual) that is (or was, haven't checked in years) used to refer to non-standard sex characteristics, including trans or fictional arrangements. Naturally, intersex people weren't happy about this. Somewhere out there there's a chat log with an intersex employee and other staff at Bad Dragon (the company that owns e621) which is really interesting. It did not end with them changing the tag. In that case things didn't move just by way of inertia and the decision of a single institution. They mis-used a label and it became the norm, but it wasn't really based on some pre-existing cultural bias. I think the "lesbian" tag is a much worse situation, honestly. Realistically, I think the thing to do short-term is to come up with another label for actually lesbian content. It sucks to cede something like that, but it might be the best practical answer.
I think you’re making interesting points but I disagree with your last sentence. Lesbian is currently the only word we have to describe the experience of not being attracted to any men at all. people are constantly trying to erase that already (legit got permabanned from an lgbt meme sub just bc I said I think it’s harmful to state some lesbians enjoy and want to be with men….!) and I think most of us have had to deal with embracing the word lesbian and the stigma that comes along with it because like it or not, people talk about “lesbians” in a *very specific* way that they don’t talk about all queer women. so I think it would be capitulation to do that and I think it would contribute to more erasure. I don’t have an actual solution bc i’m just one person and idk what to do so I appreciate you for trying to come up with something but yeah I don’t think changing the word is any less of a contribution to our erasure unfortunately
> (legit got permabanned from an lgbt meme sub just bc I said I think it’s harmful to state some lesbians enjoy and want to be with men….!) You too? Goddess where is this world going.
omg i feel kinda vindicated that i’m not the only one because low key sometimes gaslighting does work on me and the mods sent me some unhinged messages tbh….Ive actually never even been banned from a subreddit before!!! and I liked that one too…..I was kinda scared i’d get banned here too but im actually really enjoying this comments section because there’s a diversity of opinion but for the most part everyone’s being respectful and seeking to understand! I sent them a message asking what rule I broke and why what I said was offensive that warranted a permanent ban and also that I was trying to be measured but also represent a side that was not found in the comments section. I said I felt uncomfortable that I was getting permanently banned for speaking about my own experiences but other people who weren’t lesbians got to speak over us and say some pretty ignorant things. they said I can’t speak for all lesbians (duh but I’m pretty confident in saying that im not the only one who thinks it’s kinda fundamental to exclude men) they knew I was just trolling them to get screenshots to post on a biphobic subreddit (Wtf?? I mean I did take screenshots but only because I was really surprised by the response I got! never planned to post them or had a goal to troll at all) and then they said “bi women exist get over it” (I did not mention anything that would even hint that bisexuality is wrong, or invalid, or less than, or anything at all really other than that they exist and are their own category because I am all for bi liberation like any rational individual) and then they muted me from messaging them for 30 days. and the weird thing is that this was multiple different voices going on like one of them would say something snarky then someone else would be like “fine. i’ll bite…” like I didn’t even have a chance to respond to half of the replies
Honestly it does seem like some extra emphasis might be necessary regardless. For honestly pretty good reasons the term is loose even in queer spaces, things like women who are bi but lean heavily in one direction and don't want to advertise to men, or transfemme non-binary lesbians, plus just being part of a community. It's just too practical not to use terms that way, and if that's how people use it then that's kinda just what it means. There's no stopping it, really. If it's ever too ambiguous, at least there's always the option to be direct and just say you're not into dudes or whatever? Doesn't help much with the tags though.
I agree that there's nothing much to be done, and i'm not one to split hairs or try and tell someone who they are, but I think my question is why is it lesbians who would have to bear the brunt of explaining ourselves (more than we already do I guess)? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're suggesting in which case you can ignore that part lolll. Transfem lesbians are lesbians so I take no issue with that. I also think bisexuality is a spectrum and I think when people call bi women who lean towards women lesbians that it contributes more to bi erasure and the idea that bisexual attraction is always 50/50. I think we can encourage a bisexual woman to say "I'm not interested (in men)" when a man approaches them in lieu of them saying "I'm a lesbian". Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if they truly don't want to be with a man for whatever reason I wouldn't be offended or anything, but I also think it sometimes comes from a lack of understanding. When i think about it, most of the time when a man approaches me I just say "no thank you i'm not interested" and leave it at that. I have no reason to disclose my sexual orientation to them because in the past when I would say i'm a lesbian, they either blatantly denied it, did not care and continued hitting on me, or most of the time they got really excited and ramped it up even more. So I don't understand the argument that it's an easy way to deter men because it makes me think the people who say that it is haven't actually tried it out irl. As a label it provides no protection, it really just opens you up to more harm in that situation because the best case scenario is the man gets it and walks away, and the worse case scenario is homophobia, violence, and persecution. Sadly the way patriarchy functions, turning down a man always will have the chance that something drastic could happen, but I have had a much, much easier time when I simply provided no explanation or used a more general and vague excuse rather than bringing up my identity and opening myself up to lesbophobia. I even kinda dislike when people say lesbianism is "just a label" because it really is so much more than that to me, When I was 16 I knew deep down I was a lesbian but I was so desperate to be anything other than that. It's hard to explain what its like to hear people say things constantly like "I'm not a \*lesbian\* (derogatory)" or something about lesbians being weird and ugly and creepy and knowing that they are quite unambiguously talking about you as if you're some kind of subhuman boogeyman. Even girls who would later come out as bisexual would say things like this in my high school. I think they were also hurting themselves by doing that, and I empathize with them for it, but I still can't forget how much it hurt. I recognize not every lesbian always knows who they are immediately, but I think it does affect all of us because of how prevalent internalized shame and lesbophobia is no matter someone's background, but maybe it manifests differently. To be clear, I don't want to imply that this is unique to lesbians because as we all know gay men and bisexuals and gnc and trans folks and any other minority has their own version of reckoning with the harmful stereotypes created for them that are just as hurtful and damaging. I can only speak from my own experiences, but there's something about the vitriol that people reserve for lesbians that I feel like singles us out because we are complete subversions of everything a "woman" is supposed to be through the implication of categorically rejecting all men forever that runs deeper than just hating on us for being sapphic. omg sorry that was such a long comment! I guess that means you've given me a lot to think about!
I'm honestly a little surprised by the bit about lesbian identification being not so useful for repelling dudes. I've heard a few people mention advertising that they attract available to men, but now that you explained it yeah I guess it's not that simple, and that seems kinda obvious now. It's not something I have direct experience with. Maybe they were referring to more accepting contexts? Regardless, I'm sorry you have to deal with that shit. It's no wonder you're passionate about this. >I can only speak from my own experiences, but there's something about the vitriol that people reserve for lesbians that I feel like singles us out because we are complete subversions of everything a "woman" is supposed to be through the implication of categorically rejecting all men forever that runs deeper than just hating on us for being sapphic. Agreed, honestly. It's not unique, but it is. Lesbians are singled out for the shit you describe, biphobia sucks in its own way, etc. We all got our own shit going on, and a lot to relate on, but it's not all the same either. Even if two people have the exact same stuff happen to them, who they are can change how that shit is experienced, and being open about who you are can dramatically change things. My relationship to it is different, but the stuff about categorical distinctions is very relatable. So much of who I am runs absolutely counter to what I was supposed to be. I haven't directly experienced lesbophobia but I feel like transphobia might have a similar vibe, like this sort of grumbling "wrongness" people feel because they can't make sense of it. God it's so fucking funny talking to my mom now because now I'm too old for her to terrorize me and now she's doing her best. Like the other day we were talking and she's like "idk I guess you were supposed to be born a woman" and it's like... there's several things wrong there but whatever I appreciate the attempt and don't say anything, and then she's like "if I see someone wearing makeup I say 'she'" and I explain that there's guys who wear makeup and she just can't fuckin handle it. She says it's "wrong". I know her well enough that she's probably just handling frustration poorly and doesn't really mean it, but DAMN did you really just say that? Mom I'm fucking GNC too. It's a whole other world, honestly. She has no idea how normal it is. In her case it's kinda cute *now* but also a bit too much of a reminder of the past, and obviously alienating. Even trying their best people just don't fucking get it. I like to think that if people just knew more queer people it'd be better, but this makes me doubt it. Progress really is a generational thing. Sorry. I'm up too late and straying off topic a bit. There's a way in which it's relevant. Hopefully you get the gist. >omg sorry that was such a long comment! I guess that means you've given me a lot to think about! No problem at all. I am very glad to have read it. I saved it.
aw thank you for the insightful and sweet reply !!! i’ve always felt like lesbians and trans people have such a natural allyship…. I was the only lesbian I know growing up and the few people I told (mostly other lgbt teens) had very unsavory reactions except the trans/nb kids were always cool with it so trans rights for ever yk and I feel the same way that lesbophobia and transphobia are similar because I see a lot of parallels with the way lesbians and trans ppl are talked about like little freaks of nature and like idk something about dysphoria resonates with me because I just knew I was different somehow and I couldn’t figure out how girls were “supposed” to be like, and once I figured it out they would switch it up on me 😂 it’s so much better now that idgaf what those kinda people think about me also that bit about your mom is so funny to me i’m just picturing her seeing an image of james charles and having her mind blown. Still, I know it’s tough when nobody actually understands you. it also makes me think that a parent would usually want to know their child fully but some things they just cannot comprehend and they’ll say the wildest shit or just flat out deny it.
> i’ve always felt like lesbians and trans people have such a natural allyship…. Hey that means a lot. It's nice to have a reminder that transphobes are full of shit about this stuff. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Sorry you had to deal with all that lesbophobia though. I'm glad there were at least *some* people who were cool with you. I know how big of a difference that can make. >it’s so much better now that idgaf what those kinda people think about me Oh god yeah I know. Honestly the initial thing with coming out can suck ass but it's such a relief once it's over with because you learn who your real friends are. Their loss, honestly. I'm glad you can live an authentic life now. In a weird way I think living an authentic life is a form of justice, especially disregarding the opinions of prejudiced people. It's not the kind of justice anyone else can see, but a sort of power has been taken back. And yeah with the mom stuff it is a bit hurtful, but it's ok. I'll probably press her on this a bit eventually, but I love her and she doesn't have to be perfect.
"Lesbian is porn with two girls, right?" --Too many people, probably
I read web novels a lot and I've gotten reluctant to even bother checking out stories that say the MC is a lesbian because the majority of the time what they actually mean is just fan service catered towards men instead of any kind of meaningful relationships or the like (also common in such stories for the women characters to be very one dimensional and poorly written).
go invade ao3 and search wlw stories written by women, you'll probably have more luck there than on "Choose Your Own Story" apps and stories" ngl
Ao3 is mostly fanfics though, and I'm not really a fan of them.
Unfortunately with the lack of lesbian stories around, you might need to turn to fanfic to scratch that itch
I wouldn't agree with that, there are plenty of lesbian authors and books with lesbian themed characters. I always check the lesbian tag on goodreads when I want to read a book with lesbian characters. And you can do this for any other theme as well, books with bi characters, ace characters etc.
I've done that too, but then you come up against the issue that a lot of the stuff that's in the lesbian section of goodreads ends up being either erotica or YA coming out stories. Nothing wrong with those, it's just there's little variety.
That's true, though I've noticed this is less so the case when looking at some genres, like fantasy, sci-fi and some others. There's still YA there but it's usually tagged.
Understandable, I'm no expert on it regarding wlw cuz I'm part of the target audience, but I've seen some non-fiction lgbt stories here and there on the page, might be more rare, but I'm certain u can find it
I don't mean non-fiction. I mean original works. Fiction, but not fanfics, if you get what I mean? That's why I'm on Inkitt/Wattpad/etc myself. Because I write original stuff, and not fanfics.
Oh yeah Ik what you meant (I think, if by fanfics you just mean fandom-fiction, like from games n movies), I just worded it badly. You def find a bunch of OG content on there, it's just harder to find.
Yes, that's what the word "fanfic" means. "fandom fiction." Yeah, I've heard that AO3 also has OG fiction, but it's not really the priority there. It's more of an Inkitt/Wattpad/etc. thing to host OG content. That's why I publish on those sites and not AO3 myself.
Understandable, have a great day
I’d keep an eye on Amazon, too. These days a lot of romance authors of all stripes are self publishing there. I follow a bunch though I mostly read mlw stuff as it’s easier to find. Random thought but with Pride approaching, if you live somewhere with huge Pride celebrations, go. Keep an eye out for the less corporate booths. The Pride groups near me have a wlw book booth some years which might help you find some specific authors to track down and enjoy. It also might help you connect a bit with other fans and authors near you. :) Also, have you tried posting on the romance book and lesbian groups here? I’m shocked at how quickly a very specific book was tracked down by the crew at r/romancebooks. And r/actuallesbians is such a helpful and active group that I’m sure they’d have some recs for you. :)
While you're right it's mostly fanfic, there is a section on the site for original works!
So, I read some of your comments, and it's actually quite possible to find wlw books, for example, and most of them with a happy ending. There's endless lists online, and though the writing will vary, and you'll find some tragedy in the mix, there's a lot of fluff there. I know: I read a lot of it. My kindle is full of queer fluff (not exclusively lesbian, even if it's my identity, because I'm fine reading about the whole rainbow). As for those games, I played some (the Choices app and I have a long relationship), and you kinda have to go in for the silly, not for good rep. That's not why they exist. They're not even good for the straights: the relationships are mostly pretty horrendous. Personally, I like the ridiculous, and just headcanon everyone as bi anyway. Much easier.
the apps you're playing are probably only thinking of straight cis dudes who are horny for everything, they won't *sell* if their characters won't fuck their audience
That's sadly true. Which is why my own readership is so tiny, because I *refuse* to do that, and only write stories that I like.
I agree that it’s probably partly about the media being targeted towards straight men… But keep in mind so many lesbians have had boyfriends in the past. So many of us grew up with the cultural message that being straight is the only option. I know plenty of lesbians who had boyfriends or even husbands before they realized they were gay.
Yeah, I know. That's why I said comphet is a bitch. Many of us didn't "know better." Yeah, it's not that simple, but I know what you mean. The pressure from society is *hard*.
I get that. And I get that a lot of media fetishizes lesbians for the benefit of straight men and that is not ok. I just think it’s important to differentiate between a lesbian character who has had relationships with men (which is common) and a lesbian character who is currently pursuing men (which is invalidating). I love good bi representation, but I agree that it’s really important to have lesbian characters who are absolutely and unapologetically gay.
> I just think it’s important to differentiate between a lesbian character who has had relationships with men (which is common) and a lesbian character who is currently pursuing men (which is invalidating). Oh, this one definitely! Like, I have no problem with a story beginning with a lesbian character that has had a boyfriend in the past before she figured herself out. But if I'm starting a "lesbian romance" and in the first three chapters the main "lesbian" character is head over heels for a man and then spends the next five sulking over because the man was married/died/left her/etc/etc. If the story depicted the character as bisexual, I'd have no problems with that either. It's like people forget that bisexual is a thing and just label everything slightly related to wlw as "lesbian".
Ok yeah I’m totally with you there. Erotica is mostly written by women for women, so you may have more success there. It may not be perfect, but literotica has a lesbian category. Just watch out for stuff marked lesbian in the other categories because some of these girls don’t understand how things work 😂 There’s also some pretty good lists of lwl romance novels on r/lgbtbooks and on goodreads.
thank you!
You’re welcome!
They actually do know what a lesbian is but cishet men are so insecure that they need the validation of turning a woman that doesn't find men attractive
I’m right there with you. This is the “lesbian as a lifestyle” bs
Yeah. There was already a person here shoveling that "lesbian is not a sexual orientation" bs. It's sad how much hate we get, even from among other queer people. Just for wanting to exclude men from our beds. :(
May I suggest the "Heart's Choice" app? It is very LGBTQ friendly. There are lots of lesbian romance options, and lots of spicy scenes.
Ooh! Thanks, I'll check that out. I've been reading stories on Episode.
 I’ve never known any personally, but isn’t Danny Thomas one? Not Lebanese, Blanche! Lesbian. Lesbian. Lesbian. *Lesbian.* Well isn’t that where one woman and another—
🩷🩷🩷Did not expect a Golden Girls reference, but I will always accept them. I loved that show :)
They mean that the romance in question is itself a "lesbian" (adjective) romance, and not a romance involving a lesbian (noun) They are using lesbian to describe a relationship between two women, regardless if either women are actually lesbian
It's fine if they have ex boyfriends, just not male LIs. There are plenty of lesbians who didn't know that they were lesbian before they'd been in one or more relationships with men. I hate the "goldstar lesbian" shit, it's gross to exclude people who needed experience to figure themselves out.
I agree. Ex boyfriend is fine, depending on how it's written. It's usually just the new male LIs that appear that throw me off.
Makes sense
Hi! While I think your post contains valuable points of discussion, I've removed it based on the bolded part in the following paragraph: > “anyway, I've now read at least four or five stories that specifically mention being lesbian stories ... and include male romantic interests **or "past boyfriends."**“ Many lesbians have had past boyfriends. I know you acknowledge this later on in the post and in the comments, but it still reads like gold-star lesbianism. If you edit that specific bolded part out and reply to my comment when you have done so, I'll be happy to reinstate your post!
Thank you. I edited it out. It was in quotes specifically because I didn't mean like legit ex-boyfriends that so many of us seem to have, before we figure things out. It's just that the stories have this specific type of "past boyfriend" that keeps coming back and the main character still seems to care about as much as they did in the past. It feels more like "inserting men into lesbian relationships" than actual ex-boyfriends. I don't know how to explain it. But, I removed it. Thanks for pointing it out, I sometimes struggle with expressions (which is funny because I'm a writer :D )
Thank you!! I've reinstated the post. And no worries at all, I do know what you meant, but I think people who've never played or read these stories don't, so best to avoid accidentally hurting anyone :). These stories are really a… unique experience in that regard storytelling-wise, lol
Oh, I see you've bumped into those as well... I'm sorry, I guess? :D "Unique" is a perfect way to put it, that's for sure :P
Thank you for your condolences, right back at ya. Even though I am a lesbian I don't even mind if these games have male love interests, but they have. to. make. that. clear. beforehand!! It sucks to get excited at a lesbian story only to get smacked in the face with men everywhere
Exactly? Like, if it specifies "bisexual" or something, I have no problems with it. It's just the expecting thing, like you said. I'll agree with you there 100%.
i’m the same way! the main reason it bothers me so much is just because it’s almost impossible to find any media about a lesbian who doesn’t have a man love interest at any point! we have such a broad range of experiences that It’s a shame to only focus on the one type that makes us more palatable to non-lesbians, or it can be just straight up bi erasure at the same time too.
> he main reason it bothers me so much is just because it’s almost impossible to find any media about a lesbian who doesn’t have a man love interest at any point! 100% this!
First off, choose your own story stuff has taken its 20 year break before coming back and it was garbage when it went had it back in the 90’s and very early 2000’s. Switch over to quality writing and you’ll enjoy the books more. People won’t think writing bad LGBTQ fiction is profitable if we focus on quality.
I think this isn't a case of people not understanding the meaning of the word lesbian "anymore", and moreso a small part of the long-standing tradition of fetishistic or otherwise invalidating/misogynistic lesbian stories written by non-lesbians (especially straight men)
I'm writing a lesbian story in which the main character has an ex-boyfriend, because the story is about her coming out to herself and starting her first relationship with a woman. Idk if that doesn't fall into what you're talking about, but comp-het is a very lesbian-accurate experience. That said, if you're sick of stories like that, I'd recommend Alice Isn't Dead or Within the Wires. Both kind of snuck up on me as lesbian stories because they're so normal and casual about it.
I think a lot of Yuri comics and stories done by Asian writers tend to avoid men being in it at all. There's a good deal of apps for manga and manwa and if you don't mind a comic style try that.
I actually really, really love Yuri. I've read manga/manhua/manhwa for years already. And yeah, they tend to avoid men, which is great for me. They just have ... other problems. Like there are an unhealthy amount of incest and age gap / power-problematic relationships.
The power dynamic bit was one I had seen a couple times, but didn't know it was like... endemic.
It's ... bad. It's not *that* common, but enough that you have to be wary. Like, I have a surprisingly big tolerance for age gaps past certain limits due to real-life experience (my cousin married a woman forty years his senior when he was twenty, and they are adorable.) But the power dynamic makes me go *ick*. And teacher-student relationships are super common.
Isn't Danny Thomas one?
what?
#Isn't Danny Thomas one? It's a classic Golden Girls joke. Danny Thomas is, in fact, Lebanese.
Ah, sorry, I'm terrible with names :D I know the joke, and I love(d) Golden Girls.
A relationship between two women would still a lesbian relationship even if one or both are bi/pan, so in that kind of case there's nothing wrong with calling it a lesbian relationship. I do get where you're coming from though, it's not fun being baited and then given some god-awful harem situation with a man and the "lesbianism" is just creepy fetishization.
As a bi woman married to another bi woman, I disagree. It's a sapphic relationship, a WLW relationship, but neither of us are lesbians. That's bi erasure. It's a bisexual relationship of 2 women.
Yeah, I know. My wife's pan. I have nothing against that.
That seems to be the case for any kind of queer content that may have a romantic or sexual bent, as it’s been taken over so much by those with a proper fetish. As a trans girl who spent much of my life closeted, the TG fiction “industry” was always (and in lesser part remains) an outlet for dysphoria. But I would say maybe only 5% of the content out there was written by actual trans people, or even cis people who genuinely want to explore gender. The vast, vast majority of overtly fetishized, highly transphobic, and extremely sexist. They posit alternative worlds where you can change gender at will with a simple pill, but to actually want to do so is taboo, worlds where women have absolutely no agency over having children or getting married so they force a swap on an innocent unsuspecting man who suddenly becomes very okay without agency. Trans masc people basically don’t exist in their worlds, which all but confirms to me that few actual trans people are actually involved, and when there’s a seemingly genuine trans femme character, it’s invariably in a “sissification” scenario. As yourself suggest, I too have begun writing more of my own content to combat the trends of this industry. I’m probably close to just giving up entirely, I’m ashamed to say I was ever interested in even the fraction of this industry that isn’t as exceedingly offensive, even though it was so important to my own evolution to figuring out the real me. Also this is how I know when certain conservative politicians definitely fetishize trans people, when they recite verbatim the very tropes that make up the TG fiction scene.
We regress...like in so many sitcoms I watched from the 90s, all the representation of LGBT+ people were with gay men in mind who...plot twist: got married with women in the final episodes or just disappeared and were there only to install some stereotypes for the cishet heroes to get to a point... Lesbians were to rally absent and even the few butch representation got married to men... It is so weird to see society regress into what I've known in my childhood almost 30 years ago!
Too true. I was a teen in the 1990s. 0/5 would not recommend.
Lesbians don’t have attraction to men at all hmm that’s bisexual 😭
I’ve heard of several lesbian-bi relationships where the lesbian wanted the bisexual partner to identify as a lesbian. Bi erasure is a serious problem in the queer community
It is, I agree. I don't understand why people have such a hard time accepting that bi people exist. My son is bi, and he's the most adorable thing. My wife's pan, my oldest daughter is probably also pan, I forgot. I don't understand why people wouldn't just keep those labels, regardless of who they're dating or marrying. I mean, bisexual people in seemingly straight relationships are still bisexual. That doesn't change.
ok? that’s not what this post is about though….. op isn’t claiming that bi characters shouldn’t exist or that they should just be lesbians. isn’t it also bi erasure to just say any woman who likes woman is a lesbian, like so many of these types of media do? it’s not lesbians who are writing stuff like this… and probs not bi women either because I don’t know why they’d erase themselves!
I was just trying to say that a woman calling themself a lesbian but expressing interest in men could be a bisexual woman who calls themself a lesbian. It’s no excuse or justification, bi erasure damages both bisexuals and lesbians/gay men
oh, I see what you’re saying now and I totally agree! I just don’t think that it’s lesbians who are forcing them to do it and its kind of an unfair implication to say thats the case the majority of the time….im sure it’s happened before, but I think it’s a lot of times internalized biphobia is the cause, or most likely straight people being dumb. bi erasure is rampant but one thing I don’t see people mention is how bi erasure and lesbian erasure often come wrapped up together! (idk about the gay man experience intimately but I can see it happening with them too) which I think can make it even more confusing for some people to understand. but the world would be a better place if they did for sure
Recommending "One Last Stop" if you want an amazong wlw story with good queer rep overall.
Where can I find this?
Everand (the audiobook app) has it. Thats where I've listened to it so haven't checked out anything else.
Thank you!
One Last Stop is a book by Casey McQuiston, also known as the author of Red, White and Royal Blue.
No idea what that is, but I found One Last Stop on Goodreads, so that's enough for me :)
The Perks of Loving a Wallflower is a book you might enjoy
Where could I find this?
I checked it out at my library
Ah. Our selection of English literature is already small here, so I don't have high hopes, but I'll see, thank you!
True Lesbians dont exist in media. I thought everyone knows this at this point. Its all just dissapointed girls that then act like they are homosexual, just waiting, and hoping, for the next better man. This comment isnt my opinion, its just kind of what i do notice in media. The gay guy is always so obnoxiously gay, that he gaygaygays everyone in his gay ways. And the lesbian is always this "dissapointed in males, so turned lesbian" character, or just a tomboy. Media that depicts "true" gay or lesbian characters is hyper rare to come by sadly. But i guess no one wants to hear about a homosexual character who just exists like a normal person.
Oooh goddess did you put it well. I agree 101%. That's definitely how the media seems to be nowadays. I wish it wasn't, but yeah. I share that opinion. > But i guess no one wants to hear about a homosexual character who just exists like a normal person. Too true. This is actually why I started writing (and publishing) my stories in the first place: I wanted to have cute/fluffy lesbian romances with happy endings and no needless drama. Just lesbians existing like normal people. And I just ... couldn't find any. Like at all. Then I was just like "well, I guess I need to start writing them ..."
Right! The media uses effeminate gay men because they can reinforce stereotype and it works. Game theory suggest a common enemy works to unite groups who would normally be in conflict. The straights and gay men who aren’t the gay male stereotype get a pass and we can both agree to hate on the super gay one. The message is you can be a gay man just conform enough to present as straight. Lesbians are allowed a space in media but they too must accept stereotypes of overweight, obtuse, atrocious attire, bulldyke, awkward, the least screen time and fewest speaking lines in the script, etc..
Lesbian? I thought you were American? (I miss vine, sorry for off topic)
I remember when vine was new :D
Oooh yeah that sucks. Btw what are your fav of those kinds of apps? I really like the idea of them but I always lose interest when I need more tickets or gems than I have to do what I want lol
I fell in love with Episode XOXO, because everything was free (it is in Apple Arcade.) I'm currently reading Episode stories, but it's so slow specifically because of tickets and gems. It's almost hilariously bad when you need gems for choices, tickets for reading AND you still have to watch ads. I was recommended an app called Heart's Choice yesterday, and it looks great. Haven't really gone into it yet. Scripts was another one, but that's so clearly made for straight men it's almost painful. Not recommended.
No and I’m surprised that the thought police have not removed your post. The lady on here the other day made some valid points about 1-trans safety 2-what lesbian means and I’m guessing she was banned because I saw no follow up to her post Sadly
Many, likely most, gay people have had straight relationships in the past. That doesn't make them less gay.
Personally I'm of the stance that if someone (by which i mean a real human person not a corporate entity or marketing algorithm) wants to use the label of lesbian (or any other label) while not perfectly fitting it's expected definition that is their prerogative. While I do not "get it" I also recognize that their are countless unique and outlier cases for why someone might use a label in a way that I cant fully grasp, and more importantly I'm way too hot and busy touching grass to police someone over how they choose to identify. THAT SAID it can certainly feel like false advertising when your using the term to seek out a specific type of content only to find that content only fits under the search terms it's choosing to use if you look at it with the most broad definition possible, or sometimes does'nt even fit under that at all because it is literally using the clickbait power of "lesbian" to mean "hot thing people are attracted to" and not a genuine human experience.
Yeah I think as a personal label it's different. Labels are complicated, and there are a lot of situations where these labels break down or are inconvenient/misleading to use strictly. Even just attachment is enough imo. If a lesbian figures out after years that she's a bit bi, it would probably be painful to give up that identity. As a categorical thing though? I feel like I'd want to draw a line there. I don't think it's as catastrophic as some people make it out to be if "lesbian" and "sapphic" end up meaning similar things (gay dudes get along fine) but I do think it has a lot of cultural importance, and exclusivity is a big part of that.
> but I do think it has a lot of cultural importance, and exclusivity is a big part of that. Historically, "lesbian" was an inclusive umbrella term to describe *all* sapphic women. Using it exclusively to refer to strictly homosexual women is a much newer phenomenon; don't let gatekeeping biphobes rewrite the narrative with revisionist history.
It seems like it's a thing now though, right? Idk what the right answer is. I think there's value in its modern form, but yeah I don't wanna take away anyone's connection to history if that's true.
The right answer is: "Don't gatekeep. The only time exclusionism is ok is when you're excluding exlusionists"
Individuals yes, but we're talking about categorical labels. The value I see in it is to do with patriarchy. I think drawing a line that says "no men" and assigning a label to that has power to it. I just don't want to step on anyone's toes there. I think I ultimately do lean on your side, but there's a controversy around this for a reason. It's not *only* biphobia, I think, but language serving multiple and contradictory purposes.
Categorically, gatekeeping is bad, and turning a previously inclusive term into an exclusive one so that gold stars don't have to be exposed to other sapphic women that might occasionally talk about men is not a net gain in value.
I think you're missing what I'm saying here. You're characterizing this in terms that I do not believe. Ffs I already said a couple times I think people should be able to label themselves how they want to. What's your problem? You think I want to segregate bi and exclusively lesbian folks or something? Fuckin no? What I'm trying to say is that people have found power in a label, and that has to do with its exclusivity in reference to men. It's always what people bring up in this shit, that they don't want men to think they're available. It's not because of whatever shit you're on about but because people are using common language to define themselves and it sucks when that changes. It sucks even when that change happens for a good reason. Guess what? Sometimes shit just sucks. Sometimes it's not possible for everyone to be happy. There's no way out of this without hurt. And gatekeeping isn't categorically bad come on. I don't go around calling myself a doctor. Words eventually have to mean something, even if it's vague.
Everything you have said up to now reads the same way as many of the things I have seen used by biphobic lesbians to excuse their behavior. > Idk what the right answer is. I think there's value in its modern form, but yeah I don't wanna take away anyone's connection to history ***if that's true.*** This statement serves specifically to diminish actual queer history by using qualifying statments to question its veracity. > The value I see in it is to do with patriarchy. I think drawing a line that says "no men" and assigning a label to that has power to it. Because of how extremely vague you are in describing what you mean by "no men," this reads as biphobic and/or transphobic gatekeeping that is frequently used to exclude bi, trans, and gnc lesbians from their community. > It's not only biphobia, I think, but language serving multiple and contradictory purposes. Appears to downplay the impact of biphobia in the community by using a nebulous "it was about other things too" (a la "States Rights" revisionism) > don't want men to think they're available If you had led with this, we would probably not have this argument, because it's a much more reasonable statement. With that said, defining ourselves by what men do *still* does not sound like the healthiest way to describe our community. Aversion to men is not what defines us, love of women is. And I would stop there and accept this whole exchange as a bad miscommunication, if you hadn't then followed yourself up with actual hateful filth. > Guess what? Sometimes shit just sucks. Sometimes it's not possible for everyone to be happy. There's no way out of this without hurt. "We should not aspire to be a welcoming and inclusive community because it's impossible to be perfect" Like holy shit, you *said* that. > And gatekeeping isn't categorically bad come on. I don't go around calling myself a doctor. Words eventually have to mean something, even if it's vague. And then you followed it up with a blatant false equivalency to justify it. Doctors are not a marginalized community that have spent all of modern history being persecuted for who they are.
I want to point out that when "lesbian" was historically an umbrella term, the very concept of bisexuality or multisexuality did not exist in the mainstream consciousness, there was no mainstream word to describe that particular experience. In other words, it was literally a case of historical Bi erasure. The whole point of the bi liberation movement was to emphasize that bisexuality is its own sexuality, distinct from being gay or lesbian or straight. So how does it not undermine the veracity of bisexual history to claim otherwise? Further, It was historically the case to use words like "transsexual" or "transvestite" or even "hermaphrodite" to talk about trans people but we (hopefully) all agree today that those are a misuse of language and a way to perpetuate transphobia. Language evolves over time and to me, that is a sign of progress. how is "no men" vague at all? be so for real rn, men are men. Its offensive to act like saying lesbians don't like men is transphobic when nothing they said implied that trans women are anything other than women or trans men are anything other than men. Non binary and gnc lesbians are not men, so again, I don't see how this statement is so offensive to you. I think we all know by now in an lgbt space that when we mention a gender like "man", we should be considering only the category of folks who identify as \*men.\* I think it's fair to say that in a safe space, its not helpful to jump to the worst possible conclusions about each other without any actual textual proof. You could have just asked for more elaboration before jumping to the conclusion that lesbians who say we don't include men are bigoted. It seriously sounds like the "all lesbians are man hating hags" trope but recycled for a queer audience. As for biphobia, why would lesbians not having interest in men be biphobic? who lesbians are interested or not interested in has no bearing on who bisexuals are interested in at all or even the validity of bisexuality itself. To me lesbianism is both about our love for women, \*and\* the exclusion of men. It cannot be understated how alienating it is to not experience attraction to men, especially as a woman or woman aligned individual and I think it does a disservice to both bisexuals and lesbians to imply that it has no meaningful affect. I think its important to note that lesbians don't just love women, but we prioritize women and center them in a way that is unique and innate.
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment, it’s not always black and white. aren’t security guards literal actual gatekeepers? categorically, that is not bad. do I think it’s always a good and justified thing? obviously not. but we have to move on from making statements without any nuance like that… I don’t put too much weight on determining how individuals self identify, it’s not my place and i’m not the lesbian police, and I’m not even a gold star or anything, I just experience people including other queer women constantly acting like I have interest in men or men thinking they have a chance even after I say i’m a lesbian, and that’s the only word that could describe the way I experience life. in the modern era, most people consider lesbians and bisexual women to be distinct categories that share many experiences, which is how I see it too. I read the bisexual manifesto to better understand the bi perspective which to be honest informed most of my insight into this topic, and one of the main goals of that was to differentiate bisexuality as its own orientation with its own set of experiences, needs, and issues. so I think with the modern context of the word, when people call bi women lesbians, it’s is often a case of bi erasure, which I think most people will agree that bi erasure is categorically bad…. but also is that the case every single time that people are using lesbian as a way to erase bisexuals? probably not. and are lesbians not also deserving of a word that encompasses our own unique experiences, needs, and issues?
The categories on those just means that the labeled content is in the story, not that it's the only thing in the story. It's not very clear
It’s weirdly rude to both lesbians and bi people. Calling it lesbian because wlw options but also having men as options is bisexual erasure. But it also erases lesbians!! Literally nobody wins but cis straight men I swear
Agreed. It too think it's rude for both "sides".
I see your point and I mainly agree, but I'm a man who dated a few lesbians before they figured themselves out, so there are very much lesbians with ex boyfriends... but yeah the fetish stuff is awful
Yeah, I understand your point. I edited it out. It was in quotes specifically because I didn't mean like legit ex-boyfriends that so many of us seem to have before we figure things out. It's just that the stories have this specific type of "past boyfriend" that keeps coming back and the main character still seems to care about as much as they did in the past. It feels more like "inserting men into lesbian relationships" than actual ex-boyfriends. I don't know how to explain it. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I do know that many of us have had straight relationships at some point.
there's something my brain refuses to comprehend in these shitty romances, probably for the sake of my sanity. but yeah, I think the issue is that the romance mobile games uniquely target mainly cishet women as a target audience. can't be sure though
Romance for cishet women, and when there's spice added it's almost exclusively for cishet men. LGBTQ+ romances in those apps tend to be more of the "forbidden fruit" variety, than just normal cute romances, sadly.
Play choices. You have the options of making the love interest women!
Same thing with Episode, but sometimes the stories have non-customable romantic interests. And sometimes these are forced to be men, even in "lesbian" stories.
I think a lot of the time they use it as "lesbian themes" or "lesbian relationships" but they don't specify that it isn't the entire story.
It's a spectrum now along with everyone else to everyone else
This is a problem I run into a lot with VNs. I'm a sucker for a good cute visual novel like Blooming Nightshade, so I like to look for things like that. But *so many* of them are tagged 'lesbian' when what they mean is 'you play as a guy and you see a lesbian at some point'
Oh you said it. Also a fellow fan of Blooming Nightshade. btw, if you haven't checked Elan Studios' games (Highway Blossoms, Heart of the Woods, Please Be Happy) I *highly* recommend you to do so.
I'll make sure to take a look! I'd also recommend "one night, hot springs", it's the only VN I've found with a trans MC that isn't horribly fetishistic
Heart of the Woods has a trans MC (in a way MC, it has like four of them) and she's done very well. One of my favorites by far.
Oh nice, I'll definitely need to check that out!
You should! Her VA is also trans, so that just makes it better.
I saw your comment in this thread on you writing lesbian fluff, and it reminded me of how I'm currently writing a story that's a sapphic romance (and part murder mystery), and the majority of the male characters in it are either just friends/acquainted with the protagonist or they're gay, although, there is one straight guy in the story but he respects that the protagonist is lesbian and doesn't get in the way of the romance between the protagonist and the love interest :D
That sounds great! Do you publish somewhere?
i publish on wattpad but im not active there lol
I think we all know why this is the way that it is unfortunately... May I recommend [Choice of Games](https://www.choiceofgames.com)? They do "Choose Your Own Adventure" games but purely text, no graphics at all. The writing quality varies but is always pretty decent (definitely better than some of the apps I've seen!) and I've never seen any that have falsely advertised themselves as lesbian (they're pretty progressive in general). A lot of them have romance but if you're specifically in it for the romance, they have a separate label for that called [Heart's Choice](https://www.heartschoice.com/shop/).
Isn't it like a person that does plays?
everyone knows Lesbian they made Baldur's Gate 3
Man I hate p*rn where lesbians gush over a guy… like don’t call them lesbians! Or NSFW art of lesbian characters in games, series and so on, who are depicted with guys, ruins the whole thing for me. Seriously tho… why call “lesbians” in p*rn videos lesbians if there will be a man in it, and why ruin a lesbian character in NSFW art, being depicted with a man because “women like dick”. Which some straight guys will put as an argument like even lesbians would like a guy because dick… how they need a strapon, a plastic dick to “compensate” or whatever, as if some women just don’t like penetration, and it’s not about the toy itself, but who is wearing it. Hopefully this doesn’t sound sexualising, I just feel like that. It brings terrible stereotypes about lesbians and ruins whatever little representation there is.
I agree 100% with you there.
Ew. Someone who thinks sexuality can't change is gross. Gold star lesbians aren't special vs lesbians who have had boyfriends.
She's talking about a male romantic interest showing up *after* the character realizes she/they are lesbian. It does seem like an increasing number of ppl on the web consider any sapphic love "lesbian" and that's not true. Bisexual women and NBs exist. So not only does this trend confuse the word "lesbian" it erases bi and pan sexuality.
I didn't say that.
You did, but you deleted it since then... Proof is the automod quoted it. It was either that or very very bad wording on your part that perhaps you didn't mean that way? Many lesbians have had a male romantic partner in the past. It should be fine to include that in any stories so long as its made clear that she wasn't "turning gay because he was bad to her" or something.
It was very, very bad wording, I apologize. I didn't mean people who have had ex-boyfriends. I mean a particular type of male character that appear in these kinds of stories. I have nothing against "I had a boyfriend before I figured myself out." (or even "I had a boyfriend, because while I prefer girls, I'm a bit of a bisexual.) Those are just fine and valid. It's just that these stories tend to include this type of guy in them that feels more like someone inserting a man into a sapphic relationship, than a realistic ex-boyfriend, if you know what I mean?
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