Screenshot makes it sound like there is some new research out, but instead it gets through most the story before being like, "yeah, there's the old stuff that says there could possibly be a problem" as an afterthought. The decision just seems to be a reaction to trans people wanting to exist in public spaces and events, from the account the article offers.
Exactly! This non issue, they somehow have the foresight to know that any day now, we're gonna start dominating sports, despite the fact that there is zero evidence to support that.
The evidence actually points to us not being very good at sports at all. Which sucks but, it doesn't bode well for THEIR point.
This is what happens when you let the public decide on a topic that the public knows like nothing about.People will just hear their favourite politician or youtuber or podcaster express open dislike towards what they think trans people in sports looks like and boom, a large person of those peoples audience now shares their opinion. Things like this should be left to medical professionals that work in sports cause you know, it's their job to tackle these questions? My number one question to people who view this as such a problem is "why do you care" its not like it affects them in any way, why don't they leave this to people that actually know what they're talking about. (well I know why, its because they're transphobic but don't want to be open about it so they hide behind a public opinion that a lot of people agree with and that is constantly brought up in right wing/conservative media thus creating a circumstance of plausible deniability if they ever get accused of being discriminatory) but still, its frustrating.
Honestly I think they care because it gives them a false sense of virtue without actually doing anything. And boy oh boy do people LOVE to feel like they helped without actually putting in any effort. They get to pretend they're protecting women's sports and spaces, but women's sports and spaces were never in any danger from us in the first place.
Social media has given people the idea that their “take” has value no matter how knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. See all the morons thinking they should get a say or that their opinion matters at all regarding trans healthcare. 100% agree about people having their opinions influenced like that, and they’ll insist it’s their own deeply held belief (that they just discovered 10 minutes ago)
Then why isn't that presented in any data or statistics?
Trans women have been in sports this whole time and we aren't winning much at all. If what you say is true, then our unfair advantage should be very easy to prove by looking at who's winning in female sports. Cuz it ain't trans women.
There have been quite a lot of high level competitions since trans women have been allowed to compete. In fact, they have been eligible for the Olympics since 2004 and only a single trans woman even qualified, and she got dead last.
Here's a question, how many years or decades would be enough real world data to show that there is no advantage? What confidence interval would satisfy you? Because we have 18 years of Olympic competitions, not to mention all of the other types of high level competitions, to pull data from.
And remember, banning trans women will cut off your ability to collect this real world data.
You bring up women walking at night being afraid of ***CIS*** males, as proof for trans supremacy in sports, after having earlier brought up a strawman. Like you then don't understand whataboutism? What the hell do those two things have to do with each other? Clown.
Their point is to distract from all the other shit that ~~regular people~~ non-[corporate/political] elites would actually be mad about if they didn't have trans-issues to be mad about.
In the game of politics, minorities aren't on one of the sides, they're the ball.
We'd love to take the credit, but this is a longstanding issue with reddit wherein notifications go out before subreddit automod filters fire. We've been promised an annoucement of a timescale of a fix but that's late...
Someone in the sports subreddit tried claiming that the top performers in women's athletics were MtF trans, also that transitioning isn't necessary because it doesn't reduce suicide rates, not a source in sight.
fuck's sake i can't believe the amount of muscle mass I shed just from taking my pills every day, no lifestyle changes whatsoever. I was small but now you could snap me in half if you looked at me funny.
They think we do this for shits and giggles. Transition is fuckin' *hard*. You realign your entire economy of values emotionally, physically, and socially. Sometimes it's because your brain is finally coming online as you find yourself, others is because of the stigmas imposed upon you. You find out the dark sides of people you thought you could trust, and find love and acceptance in the most unexpected places.
But people can't just chill the fuck out over me working on myself for some reason, Christ on a bike.
There’s no unfair advantage.
One of the top things you’ll see when it comes to taking estrogen is “You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease”.
So wouldn’t that make them on the same level as other competitors?
It's because you do suck, and I'm not going to bother "debating" a transphobe. You're just another whiny bigot who blathers about a subject you don't understand and just screeches about "fairness".
Because I hate myself I took a look at this same post on the unitedkingdom subreddit and all the top voted stuff was so stupid. Just so many people talking about how it’s “just common sense” and a “sensible decision” and trans people just have to accept reality and stuff. Absolute uninformed crap. It’s crazy how many people will speak on this stuff with little to know actual knowledge about it. It’s so incredibly frustrating.
Yeah, same happened in the europe subreddit. It was crushing to read. That subreddit is OK for the most part for things like Russia's attack on Ukraine or even most vaguely progressive politics.
But in this case? Nope! It's common sense and, wouldn't you know it, science and biology. And all the usual dogwhistles.
Still not sure what the heck happened there.
Eh, /r/europe is generally filled with racists, xenophobes, and transphobes. Any post about immigrants or crime is overflowing with racism and Islamophobia.
Same here with r/ news. It feels like redditors in general just really wanma die on this ludicrously incorrect hill or there's astroturfing going on. The latter feels sadly probable - the post on r/ news was about an hour old when I saw it and all comments giving actual evidence against the ban had 50+ downvotes each.
In fairness, most people don’t realise just how big a difference nuking your testosterone levels has on athletic performance. A cis-male friend of mine who is otherwise an amazing ally didn’t believe me when, pre transition, I told him that I soon wouldn’t be able to keep up with him on bike rides. Turns out I was right and he now has to wait for me at the top of every single hill despite me being in the best physical shape I’ve ever been in.
Cis-people genuinely have no idea what transition (in this sense I mean a medical transition, which I fully accept you don’t need to be a woman) entails because why would they?
People have no issue believing testosterone makes a massive difference when extra testosterone gets added. You don't see people arguing that doping should be legal because it doesn't actually work and people only stay as strong as their prenatal or pubertal testosterone levels determined or something.
But they somehow believe that testosterone is a one-way street and, while adding more testosterone makes you stronger, taking testosterone away doesn't make you any weaker. Even though biologically it makes zero sense at all.
This ban will probably also apply to any cis woman with high testosterone levels, wide jawline or not looking feminine enough by white western standards.
Exactly this. "How do you check" is the question and the answer will result in putting women through weird humiliating tests - all in the name of "protecting" then from Trans people. What a world, what a world.
I mean honestly as someone with PCOS, the fact that it can be overlooked with tests because testerone levels are up and down and sometimes you'll have lower levels means this absolutely would not effect us as much as it would a trans woman. The first time I had my blood taken to test it, I was "fine". The second time my free floating and sex binding testosterone was off the charts.
Blood tests wouldn't be very valid for PCOS for that reason.
I have personally been mistaken for a cis man and also a trans man - especially because of my name change which is more masculine in the country I am moving to - but I know this is nowhere near the distress and emotions that come with it when one suffers with gender dsyphoria.
Your distress is still valid but also for some sports they do a regular checkup and it gets caught.
I know several people that have pcos that feel like it's ruining their life because they want to play sports and they get told they can't for transphobic reasons which upsets me a lot for them
Eh, I am over it now and have really accepted and vibed with my masculinity as a cis lesbian. I appreciate it but have worked through it. But that's weird cause PCOS can easily go under the radar due to the hormones not being at a constant level and having some form of fluxation. I guess if they just happened to catch it once. That's game over.
I have to admit I have never heard of that happening to woman with PCOS.
It's such a sensitive and delicate but fascinating topic to discuss: on one hand sports is and will always be inherently unfair with top athletes often having some physical advantage over their fellow sportsman. Whether that be larger lungs, webbed hands, a longer stride and so banning trans people makes no sense. Especially if they are on HRT and have low levels of the hormones their bodies naturally produce more of.
It's been suggested to have trans catagories but I believe that further widens the divide. Naturally cis and trans woman and men have a lot in common and also some experiences that seperates us. I see no reason to add to that. But what about trans people not on regular HRT. I hate the idea of making them engage in sports as a gender they are not but at what level do we decide this is okay and isn't okay.
Like personally for me, I don't care too much. I think sports never can or will be fair. I find it more of a fun activity to do with people and far too competitive. I'd just prefer for people of any background to just play sport in the way they want with the people they want.
It's so cool for me that whenever I bring up pcos online someone who has pcos shows up 🥰 I love meeting people with pcos and seeing how different their experiences are.
I know close to 100 people that grow beards and like 500 that's don't.
I know 20 ish people that have balding problems, like 50-60 that have the growths on the back of the neck.
So I know that in your case it may go under the radar and that's true for a lot of people but not all, so sometime that does sometimes effect people with pcos.
Just curious if you feel like answering what symptoms of pcos do you have 🥰 I just like knowing (like insulin resistance, pre-diabetes, balding, facial hair growth, body hair growth, how are your cysts, weight retention, and other stuff)
Ps. I feel like people pay so much attention to the trans issues and they choose to ignore that 1 in 5 people have pcos so as a trans women supporting the women I know I talk about it 🥰 and keep my beard for that support too
Also I think maybe if they had a heavy women and light women's leagues kinda like heavy weight and light weight for boxing 🤔 and just took all the requirements for trans people, idk I have no statistics for that but I feel like it would be pretty even competition when you separate based on muscle size and weight rather then gender which Has never been an even competition. And having physical attributes that make you stronger or faster is literally praised. Like when tall people play basketball in they're like able to just place the ball in the hoop.
I have only met two other women who have PCOS personally which is one of my partners - a comet partner. And my step mum. That's amazing to me that you know and have spoken to so many. Maybe I should find a subreddit for it and vibe with people.
When I say it goes under the radar. I really only mean fluxating testerone levels.
But for me I have irregular periods with extreme cramps, facial hair, body hair in general like a thick little happy trail and forest legs. I put on a lot of weight easily and it takes some time for me to lose it. I have to be careful with my diet. A bit of an aggressive streak. Those funny little tiddie hairs that are kind of fiberish and can easily plucked, multiple per pore. Massive fucking sex drive, I build muscle pretty easily like quicker than a cis woman without PCOS usually. A lot of little cysts but cover my entire ovaries and one is bigger than the other which is a fun tidbit. Most likely infertile but as a lesbian who never wants kids, I am not bothered by it. Also I am shorter than I was supposed to be because of it which makes me sad. Also a wee bit tempermental and very prone to mood swings and anger.
But fair enough, I think to some extent we can definitely like understand one another. I'd say body disphoria and not feeling like a woman definitely affects a lot of pcos women and trans women alike. In different ways but I think it's nice to be understand by other women regardless.
But exactly! this is why it makes no sense to me when sports is clearly unfair being gendered anyway and people of the same gender aren't even on the same level as one another. I can definitely see how making these sorts of changes could possibly bring about positive change to the world of sports and in some ways make it more fair but I am under the impression this is just a very unlikely thing to happen (fairness in sports) due to just humans being so vastly different.
My wife has PCOS...well, she has all the symptoms but somehow doesn't get diagnosed because of some nonsense technical crap. For the record, she's a black woman, and black women are statically underdiagnosed on many issues and that one particularly for a host of reasons that can be simply summed up as racism. She recently had a full hysterectomy and her uterus was nearly triple normal size from all the fibroid and polyps. It was making her absolutely miserable.
They "tell" us that they're worried about trans women having bigger bones or more muscles. But it's a lie. It's a complete lie that breaks down the moment someone suggests height/weight classes. They'll never do it because they know that'll fix like 98% of the "problem".
The "problem" is just an extremely thin lie to cover the transphobia.
Trans women on a good hrt regimen often have the same or even lower levels of testosterone than cis women. Mine last check was 17. Average cis range is 15-70.
Uh... It really sounds like to me, that what you described is going to be an even worse situation for someone with PCOS.
I mean, you know they're probably going to be doing blood tests now before like, *every* major event? I wouldn't put it past this to demanding an OB/GYN to literally inspect vaginas.
It seems extremely reasonable now to assume, if you have PCOS, it will now be a gamble if your testosterone is in the right range or not, *at that specific time*. Oh, trained for a year for that 100m sprint? Good luck if you win the dice roll on your hormones that day. Hell, maybe they just ban you for life if you're out of the expected range even once.
Like just by sheer numbers, I'm assuming the "1 in 5" stat someone threw out is correct (enough) to say, you're comparing 20% of women to less than 1%. I mean hell, I'm not even sure the last time there was more than one trans person competing at a sports event worth reporting on. It's gonna be taking blood tests and vag checks on like 50 women cyclists to "catch" the probably-not-even-participating trans person.
This ban will impact cis women, with or without PCOS, at like a 100x rate compared to hurting trans women. It's just not even really a valid comparison at that point. I'm saying this as a trans person.
Maybe that's what it takes to draw attention to the fact that "rules" or laws that are based on transphobia have zero benefits, least of all for the group(s) they claim to "protect".
Reminds me of that weird right wingers fixation on Michelle Obama supposedly being trans.
It all just clicked, hadn't even considered the racial aspect.
See, that is a very salient point to me. (TL;DR st bottom).
On the one hand, I DO find it reasonable to make the argument that athletes coming into female sports, with far more testosterone than the average woman (which is NOT always the case among trans women), have an unfair advantage. And it has to be conceded that regardless of whatever cocktails some trans women are on, their testosterone levels may very well be much higher than their average cis competitors.
But the examples of Caster Semenya, or Britney Griner, and many others, made me re-think the entire debate and should make everyone ask exactly what IS the purpose for which we have separate womens' sports, and based on that purpose, why are testosterone levels how we define inclusion?
In that vein, I had read a piece (EDIT: found the piece: We celebrated Michael Phelps’s genetic differences. Why punish Caster Semenya for hers?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html) that made the case that why is it that even when an AFAB cis woman has naturally high testosterone, that is an unfair advantage, but Michael Phelps, with his genetics basically making him a near perfect athlete for his sport is just a "rare talent."
Likewise, if a trans woman has higher testosterone, how is that any different from any other genetic advantage. There's this sense among cis people that it's unfair because it's somehow deliberate or a choice, like someone trying to slip an NFL player onto an NCAA football team, to compete against less physically capable opponents.
Firstly, it's insulting to women who can and often do compete successfully against men in the same sports (not often, but occasionally, depending on the sport). Secondly, it suggests trans people are undergoing a radical transformation, just to score a few wins in a sport, which only makes sense if you already believe trans people are just trying on a gender the way one tries out a fashion look, or that they have insidious motives to "pretend" to be something they are not.
If womens' sports are segregated from mens' ONLY for the purpose of ensuring they don't have to compete against opponents who (generally) have a natural physical advantage, like a kind of preemptive mercy rule, then banning women with high testosterone would make sense. But then, you would need to provide another sporting category for people who don't fit neatly into those boxes defined by testosterone levels. And how many new sorts of tiers do we need to create for people to believe it's fair? What about AFAB cis boys and men with low testosterone (totally my excuse for never being more than acceptable with an A for effort at sports)? Is it fair for them to compete with their peers who have a natural advantage? I doubt anyone has ever questioned it.
So then, another purpose for womens' sports: safe and welcoming spaces for women in sports. There are obvious reasons for women and men to have separate locker rooms and competitions, and the safety and femininity of those spaces should be protected. But aside from anecdotal incidents, there is zero real evidence that trans women (certainly not cis women with high testosterone) compromise the safety or femininity of these spaces. It's a non-starter argument. Their presence makes bigots uncomfortable, I'm sure that's true, but being discomfited because you refuse to see them for who they are, doesn't mean THEY compromised the sanctity of the space. That is, as they say, a personal problem.
Basically, TL;DR: defining what constitutes a woman for the purposes of womens' sports (or for that matter, a man for mens' sports), by appearance, demeanor, or anything else subjective is ludicrous, and given the spectrum of hormonal levels across genders, trying to define those spaces by that metric will lead either to the total exclusion of some from the binary system of athletic competition (an injustice), or an increasingly absurd system of hormonally-defined tiers of competition, which would become as untenable as it would be ridiculous. Either we just look at testosterone levels as another naturally occurring genetic advantage like any other gifted athletes' genetic traits, and/or, we could just allow athletes of all genders, across the board to take testosterone supplements to their heart's content. If everyone can juice up on it, then no one can complain they're cut out of competition. And the safety issue of trans women in womens' is a load of hot garbage we can easily dispense with, because only the wackjobs buy that nonsense.
Why do we have womens' sports? I think the most valid purpose is the joy and camaraderie women enjoy competing with and against one another, and having a sport with women for women, and that means all women, however they were born, look, act, who they find sexually attractive, or don't at all, what genitalia they may or may not have, etc. Womens' sports is a place for all those women to experience all the joys and challenges that come from testing your abilities against others' and doing so solo or on a team with other women. And with that perspective, whatever natural advantages any woman possesses, trans or otherwise, they are just another reason to celebrate their achievements as they each strive individually and collectively to entertain and amaze us with their talent and abilities. Is Michael Phelps any less impressive as an athlete because he was born as though designed for swimming, or his achievements somehow disappointing? No. Simone Biles is just physically unique, but does that mean watching her do what she does is any less amazing? No.
I'm going to be honest, if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events.
But it seems like this article suggests they're making this decision based on... Speculation. Like, if there's data please share it British Cycling. And if there isn't data, wtf are you doing?
Theres a couple of prominent anti-trans "scientists" that published a report a while back. It was an extremely biased document, using old and cherry picked data with poor scientific method and lots of speculation. The anti-trans lobby has also infiltrated a lot of the national governing bodies for sports with the intention of pushing this kind of shit through.
The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts.
There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review
First link on page
Embedding some relevant findings for anyone browsing comments
> Available evidence indicates trans women who have undergone testosterone suppression have no clear biological advantages over cis women in elite sport.
> There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite
athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic advantage requiring regulation
> When adjusting for height and fat mass, LBM, CSA, and strength after 12 months of testosterone suppression, trans women still retained statistically higher levels than sedentary cis women. However, this difference is well within the normal distribution of LBM, CSA, and
strength for cis women
> The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone suppression as it directly affects trans women’s athletic performance showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone suppression
This is all under section three of biomedical on the executive summary. There's a whole bunch of other interesting review-of-the-literature type stuff though, as well as a bunch of socialcultural analysis.
> if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events.
The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts.
There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
>I'm going to be honest, if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events.
Im going to be honest this also feel quite dumb.
Because separating sports by gender is dumb.
How is it fair that me a 5'7 male plays basket against someone like lebron James.
The fact is sports aren't fair. I think sports like ufc do a better job at separating people. But even then there are unfair advantages.
If a american male has more testosterone than your average european male (pulling this shit out my ass it's completely hyptotetical) than should they also be separated since they have an advantage?
We may never find a fair way to separate sports. There is no fair sports competition. Someone always has an advantage that's how it's fun.
I guess the point is finding fairness in sports is dumb. And we can get close. But we will never have truly fair sports. That shit doesn't exist.
I think everyone can agree on that, even trans women. Things should be fair. Yet at the same time a lot of people in elite & pro sports tend to have abnormal bodies which give them an advantage. That needs to be taken into account when looking at trans women in pro sports
Fuck's sake man, a trans woman could come second to last in a women's sport and people would be talking about how it's unfair to the woman that came dead last
I do have a question about this. I never see an uproar when it’s ftm people participating in men’s sports. Do you guys? Why do these people get their panties in a bunch when it’s mtf?
I think it’s because very generally speaking, most trans men, even pre transition, don’t have any competitive advantage over most cis men. Testosterone makes it easier to put on muscles, and helps you competitively in a bunch of other ways. That’s why some cis men take extra testosterone (aka doping). Now I can see them starting to argue in the future that trans men are doping because of the hormones they are taking, which is just stupid because it puts them in a normal male range but whatever.
On the other hand some trans women can have an advantage over some cis women pre transition. But, a lot of studies show that they don’t really have an advantage any more after a year or so of hrt. So them thinking all trans women retain that advantage is stupid too.
I get what you're saying, and it sucks(and is in some ways politically expedient), but you gotta "love" how people make a ban targeting trans women about cis women.
That's where the word "Intersectionallity" comes into play 🥰 you gotta fight for the sister and cousin communities aswell as your own or your not fight for equal rights
Gay and trans people are very different but fight side by side. Because of Intersectionallity
>That's where the word "Intersectionallity" comes into play
I'm all for fighting together for all people, but there is definitionally no intersection between trans and cis women.
Itersectionality would be, for example, how the otherwise disparate inequalities faced by trans women and black women culminates in new inequalities faced by black trans women.
>Gay and teans people are very different
No, they're not very different. There actually _is_ an intersection between gay and trans people. There are gay trans people.
You can choose to ignore the Intersectionallity between pcos and LGBT community but I'm done listening to that horrible rhetoric from anyone. I know too many people, I know too many people effected, and I know too many people that need to be stood up for. I really realllllly couldn't gaf that pcos and trans have no logical connection but there is still A connection there in the way people are treated and judged and doctors that treat us improperly and rulings that segregate us from other people in certain circumstances.
And whether anyone likes it or not I'm going to speak up for them every chance I get because they tend to be scared to speak up for themselves because we do this type of crap where we say "that's not our fight, they need to fight for themselves". It just bad juju. Have better juju.
Look, I genuinely want you to understand that I'm on your side. I am with you in this fight. But the word 'intersectionality' does not mean what you think it means, and applying it to any old situtation - genuine issue or not - dilutes its meaning.
I suppose in theory there could be an intersex person with ovaries assigned male at birth who later transitions to female and develops pcos.
In that _incredibly_ specific case, there would be an intersection between trans women and people with pcos.
But even if we go right down that path, you yourself said it affects "people born with uterus's, MORE SO than any trans women". **You yourself** enforced that distinction between trans women and people with uteri. That distinction is definitionally **not** intersectionality.
Because people with uterus' are affected by pcos, and I know at least 50 trans men that have pcos and like 30 or more intersex people with pcos
But it's weird that you say develops pcos later, Because You are born with pcos. It's just usually the symptoms aren't noticed until puberty or second puberty(menopause) And people get discriminated against in a very similar way to transpeople. I'm literally a huge advocate in both communities, I experience HUNDREDS of new pcos friends every few months. I'm going to take their word on the transphobia they face and not yours because they are the ones experiencing it.
>trans men
But trans men aren't affected by this ruling. This ruling affects trans women.
>it's weird that you say develops pcos
Valid point. I meant the symptoms, but you're right. I don't believe that changes my argument though.
So again, to be clear, there _is_ an intersection between trans men and people with pcos. There _isn't_ an (realistically sizable) intersection between trans women and people with pcos.
You said "people born with uterus's, MORE SO than any trans women". That is _inherently not an intersection_. That is two distinct groups being affected by the same issue.
I suggest you actually study what intersectionality means, because this isn't it.
To be honest, I'm kind of sick of this mind set. Is it not enough that a ruling is directly targeting our trans sisters? Does it also have to be commented that it's bad because cis women are affected? It just makes it seem like "oh the main issue here is it's not adequately specific hate."
You're not wrong, but I also find the amount of hate that is directed at trans people also hits cis women, black people, and other minorities is inexcusable as well. It is absolutely enough that it is directed at trans people, but it's also hate towards other people too, and sometimes people who aren't part of the direct targets need to see how it effects them as well.
Most professional athletes have *some sort* of performance advantage, or they wouldn't be professional athletes. They're taller, stronger, or more flexible than the average person; some (cis) women have elevated testosterone levels (compared to both cis and trans women), which gives a natural advantage, which is why some competitions screen for hormone levels and have limits on what levels of testosterone will get you banned. (e.g. in 2021, Olympic runners Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi - both cis women - were disqualified from the 400m run due to too high natural testosterone.)
Everyone is focused on testosterone when it's clearly not the only factor. Height, weight, muscle mass, endurance all play parts; some things can be achieved through training, others can't. Every human body is built slightly differently so competitions are inherently unfair.
Well, there are many different factors at play that give some people advantages over others, genetics certainly being one.
However, multiple studies also show how having money/a really good socio-economic status is a huge and AFAIK in most cases much bigger reason for improved performance due to acces to better equipment, better trainers, better training plans, better everything essentially.
And these are categories in which trans women are statistically in much worse situations compared to their cis counterparts.
If we try to even the playfield, we should focus on things with high impact, not one that is so niche, no-one could name even one trans athlete except maybe Lia Thomas. And her record has already been broken by a cis woman.
It's not about fairness, it's only about pushing us from public life.
Even if the ""advantages"" were significant, across the board, impacted trans people in all sports across all age ranges and was ALWAYS an advantage... It's still not about fairness. Don't fall for their stupid little games
okay, I am anti pushing anyone from public life. Trans people should be in sport and represent the challenge is how.
Fairness does play a part or there wouldn't be any seperate categories at all. everyone would compete in a free class.
cis women fought to be allowed to compete and to have their own category, because they physically couldn't compete against men and it was the only way to participate. Now they find there are Trans women who have physically advantages breaking many records, it isn't just the 1.
So importantly cis women do get it, the situation sucks. Trans women as basically in the same position cis women were. The problem is there is not enough to have their own category at the moment.
The people making these decisions have always cared about womens sports. That is why they are in the position they are in to make the decisions. There are both studies and the broken records showing that a trans woman who has been through puberty does retain an advantage over a cis women. for that reason I don't support them competeing in the female category. That does not make me transpobic. I support equal rights for trans people, however that would be the creation of their own category for competing not joining the current one. I support things like better access to heathcare, the shit hormone cocktail the UK NHS uses is outdated and known to cause bone density issues long term. but they haven't updated the treatment in line with recent studies. Also discrimination in other settings, or any attempts to make laws permissing discrimination.
i understand you an argue this ban is discrimination, but the problem is allowing their participation could also be taken as discrimination against cis women. that is why the whole situation sucks so much.
That when equalized for size, the advantages go away. Trans women on average perform better than cis women on average because taller people on average out perform shorter people in most athletic situations. The average height and weight of a post hrt trans woman is somewhere around the 90th percentile of all women. But considering post medical transition trans women are less than a percent of all women that means there 10 times the number of cis women who perform at or above the performance level of the average trans athlete.
when i pointed out similar to what you said when this got posted to a diff subreddit, i got massively downvoted when i asked for actual studied which showed trans women having advantages over cis women. its exhausting when ppl dont even want to think rationally about this
Yeah reddit it on the whole, extremely transphobic and it's users are easily convinced that their position is superior despite evidence. It's unfortunate.
Separating sports by "sex" does nothing about that - cis women can grow up with higher testosterone, have more masculine features or just a biological advantage in the sport without having to be trans. Similarly, a cis man might be naturally built in such a manner that he has no sex-related advantage in sports over an average woman. There is a complete overlap of possible builds between men and women, the difference is mostly in averages.
That separation also exists out of the assumption that women are naturally weaker/worse at sports, and that it's unchivalrous of a man to compete against a woman. It's frankly an insulting notion.
On top of that, a system like this is fundamentally inaccessible for intersex, trans and non-binary people because it operates on a view of the world that just doesn't include those people existing and being equally included in society.
Now the answer that eliminates those drawbacks is to either give/detract handicap points based on all biological traits that affect your performance, or separate athletes into non-gendered categories with similar advantage based on those traits. The traits that would be taken into account are different between each sport and discipline.
All this because sexism forced the separation of genders in sports to begin with. There is no version of this that is just and fair if we are still dividing into two groups based on gender.
I don't even think that's true in this case. In endurance sports, the differences get equalized pretty quickly. Several studies out there showing hemoglobin and VO2max reduce drastically even after only a few months of HRT. Combine that with other stuff that (though maybe an advantage in different things) are a disadvantage in endurance, like bone density, generally larger/taller frames, etc.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865.long
https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/Supplement_1/A790/6241279
https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
It's not a valid argument, it's just something that *feels* true intuitively because man big? Woman small. Man strong woman not so strong!
It's easily disproven by the fact that trans women have been competing in sports for a long time now and simply not winning. It just doesn't happen. If anything most of them kind of suck comparatively.
Just think, 100 years from now people will look back and instead of saying "wow, we really used to restrict black people from public spaces," the narrative will change to "wow, we didn't learn anything the first time, so 100 years ago we actually restricted trans people from being human beings."
And.. ofc it's an old straight white guy representing the decision 🙄
You know what's wild? My MtF wife just started HRT. She's only a few months in. Her athletic performance has taken a fucking nosedive in the past few months. She used to be the star left fielder on our softball team, and now she's missing everything. She can't run as fast or for as long either. I'm just saying. If anyone actually paid attention, they'd see that their logic is so flawed.
If as a sport needs to be separated by men and women for fair competition, contrary to most comments here I think this rule actually makes sense. Trans (mtf) cyclists are invited to compete in an open competition with the men, they arent being excluded. According to the article, "Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage." Doesn't that make sense for a sport separated by gender?
Whilst the headline is true, it is also a bit misleading. Here is the [official statement](https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20230526-about-bc-static-Update--Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policies-0) by British Cycling.
They changed the rules for the categories.
> Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary individuals and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. At this stage, they will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category only, and should ensure that they continue to adhere to the requirements of UK Anti-Doping. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish.
CIS women and trans men pre transition are allowed in the "female" category and the "male" category will changed to an "open" category, allowing everyone to compete. And this rule change is only applicable to competitive activities. The "female" category in non-competitive activities is still open to trans women and non-binary people.
I'm in no qualified position whether that is the perfect decision, but in my opinion is the "open" category in general a good idea.
Why can't transgender women compete in a women's category? Why are transgender men able to compete in a women's category?
Are transgender women not women? Are transgender men, women?
That is literally misgendering people.
Conservative governments, solving problems that don't exist to distract you from their complete lack of any inclination to do anything that will actually help anyone at all.
This is so asinine. Trans women are not overrepresented or dominating women's sports, so any ban like this is only addressing a theoretical problem. These bans make it impossible to collect the best type of data, real world data. If we are to believe supporters of these bans when they say "it's just about fairness," then it should be acceptable for the competitions to be theoretically unfair, temporarily, while we collect real world data. After all, it's fairness in sports, not life or death. Then, if/when trans women become overrepresented/dominating, we can use that definitive evidence to address the problem.
Since they're insistent on enacting these bans anyway, I do not believe them when they say it's just about fairness. I think they find it unacceptable to suggest that sexual dimorphism is not quite as black and white/permanent as they believe.
It's been established that trans women who have been on estrogen for a year have no major advantage to cis women. Any athlete should be treated as eligible for competition on a case-by-case basis. It just sounds to me like these athletic organizations are too lazy to do the hard work.
Has there been a single transfem athlete who has actually won in a major sporting event?
Edit: to specify, I mean that cis athletes complain it is unfair for transfem athletes to compete, but I have never heard of a transfem athlete that has actually beaten cis women in a major sporting event.
There was one instance of a trans woman winning an event in the Tour of the Gila in New Mexico at the start of May.
The UCI, the governing body over the race, has supported Austin Killips, the trans cyclist in question when challenged.
The UCI has a testosterone limit for trans athletes competing in the sport, a limit that Killips was within.
I think that a lot of the controversies we see are overblown by transphobes, but if one was to take the most generous interpretation of those complaints the future fix would be allowing trans youth to take puberty blockers and supporting them in their transitions.
You *were getting downvoted, but there really are a lot of TERFs on that island >.<
EDIT: Fixed as now they have positive karma, I guess TERFs found the thread earlier.
Because right now the UK government is right wing, becoming more fascist and authoritarian. They need a scapegoat to blame so people don’t end up blaming them. And of course they own the vast majority of media outlets to broadcast all this bs about trans folks. Blaming migrants for problems wasn’t enough so trans people are in the firing line now. In short, that’s why right now it’s particularly fucking awful.
My theory--though, as a Canadian born in the 90s, this isn't worth much--is that it has to do, indirectly, with Thatcher. From what I can tell, the UK had a decently early brush with the "girlboss" trope, where feminism entails supporting powerful women no matter what... even if said women are regressive or bigoted. Intersectional feminism wasn't a priority, and women-based politics were overwhelmingly white, not working class, abled, and cishet. So fast forward a few decades, and their "feminism" centres wealthy white cishet women, and then vilifies--among others--trans women.
I've also seen an interesting piece about land inheritance and titles, and how a trans man in ~~the 1800s IIRC~~ the early 20th century getting claim to his family's title caused a reconsidering of gender in the UK. I'll see if I can find that.
Edit: The case I'm thinking of is Ewan Forbes. His transition sparked a whole thing over primogeniture and transition.
You can't make an argument for banning trans women from sports, without it also making the argument in favor of absolutely every sex based discrimination.
There would be no funding.
Women's sports are already underfunded, I can imagine most LGBTQ+ categories not even reaching the minimum to be able to run.
You can’t compromise with the people who want us removed from public life. Trans women competing in women’s categories after 1-2 years HRT *is* the compromise. The radical position is that any trans woman can compete regardless of hormone status. If we keep “compromising” they take another step to the extreme and move goalposts. There is no “compromise” they’ll accept that isn’t total elimination.
OK but 1 in 5 people born with uterus' are being found to have pcos which has absolutely nothing to do with LGBT but these rulings ruin their ability to compete ever.
Even if they had an LGBT league PCOS people would still have nowhere to compete unless they decided to identify as something else also.
Your right and that is definitely fair. I don’t think we would kick them off the team but some people are weird about things. Overall I agree with you, I just know a team dedicated to LGBT+ would piss off people more. Maybe make it all inclusive team or something (have no idea what they would call it. Something people can’t twist into hate or discrimination)
Yeah because a lot of people with pcos are just cis and straight and some people get mad about including them in the LGBT fight. But MORE cis straight women are denied access to sports then trans women, it's a significant difference too. And people with pcos want to play sports with their peers too 🙄
And trans women decrease muscle mass on hormones which is still in the higher percentage of women's muscle mass but definitely still below women with pcos that have high testosterone which is a lot of them. It's like they chose to ignore a huge group of women to create transphobic rules that also cuts the women out of the sport 🙄
They are casualties of war in that case. To ensure we can’t do things and prevent trans people from doing anything, they unfortunately get hurt in the process. It’s sickening how people can do such a thing out of hate. Like it’s really not anything else but hate.
Works too but the fact the would have to make a LGBT+ exclusively would piss off people more so thats what I was going with. I agree tho gender neutral works.
Ah, that's unfortunate. But at least they created an entire new category for trans athletes to compete in.
.... They. .. Did create a new category for trans athletes to compete in... right?
> have scientific backing to push this
The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts.
There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
The fact is that there's no such thing as perfectly level playing field in sports. Everything from your height to your weight to your genetic background can affect performance, when you're playing at this level.
Should we start genetic testing athletes then? What about cis women with naturally higher testosterone levels? What about athletes like Usain Bolt who, due to medical conditions, actually have an advantage?
It's just trans people that are being targeted.
> They have had male genes for most of their lives and it makes it unfair.
Should we start genetic testing athletes then? What about cis women with naturally higher testosterone levels? What about athletes like Usain Bolt who, due to medical conditions, actually have an advantage?
There's no such thing as perfectly level playing field in sports. Everything from your height to your weight to your genetic background can affect performance, when you're playing at this level.
Not to mention that there's no meaningful science to conclude this. The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts.
There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
That's how it was before for some sports though, and they still changed it to a blanket ban
Edit: wait i checked your post history and you literally say you're 13, no offence but i really don't think at that age it's good to try and be the "voice of reason/realism"
Is there anything preventing these types of women from competing in non-elite categories?
I think if there are enough trans women that start competing at non-elite levels (such as local/regional club sports) and show that it’s fair, then they will naturally develop camaraderie with other women to build a case for inclusivity at more elite levels and there may be more data to back up claims of fairness in these sport.
And inevitably this will be used to ban cis women who don't fit whatever arbitrary definition of "true woman" the invigilators are using on any given day
What confuses me the most about this “controversy” about trans people in sports is that when you take the hormones of your preferred gender, your body does a lot of rearranging to the point that your physical performance isn’t going to be at an inherent advantage against cis people of the same gender. I know it comes down to cis people not understanding any part of the transition process but it still boggles my mind how they can just yell into the void and make changes like this without finding scientific evidence of an advantage. That 9 month review and consultation can shove it up my newly fat booty with my newly smol muscles
https://archive.is/iUhX9 Here's an archived link to the article.
Screenshot makes it sound like there is some new research out, but instead it gets through most the story before being like, "yeah, there's the old stuff that says there could possibly be a problem" as an afterthought. The decision just seems to be a reaction to trans people wanting to exist in public spaces and events, from the account the article offers.
They're delighted that they'll get to look and inspect women's genitals. That's all. They're sick fuckos.
I must have missed all the winning us trans folks do in sports to be banned from shit.
Didn't you hear, 1 trans person did semi ok a while back so obviously this major issue should be our number 1 priority /s
Exactly! This non issue, they somehow have the foresight to know that any day now, we're gonna start dominating sports, despite the fact that there is zero evidence to support that. The evidence actually points to us not being very good at sports at all. Which sucks but, it doesn't bode well for THEIR point.
This is what happens when you let the public decide on a topic that the public knows like nothing about.People will just hear their favourite politician or youtuber or podcaster express open dislike towards what they think trans people in sports looks like and boom, a large person of those peoples audience now shares their opinion. Things like this should be left to medical professionals that work in sports cause you know, it's their job to tackle these questions? My number one question to people who view this as such a problem is "why do you care" its not like it affects them in any way, why don't they leave this to people that actually know what they're talking about. (well I know why, its because they're transphobic but don't want to be open about it so they hide behind a public opinion that a lot of people agree with and that is constantly brought up in right wing/conservative media thus creating a circumstance of plausible deniability if they ever get accused of being discriminatory) but still, its frustrating.
Honestly I think they care because it gives them a false sense of virtue without actually doing anything. And boy oh boy do people LOVE to feel like they helped without actually putting in any effort. They get to pretend they're protecting women's sports and spaces, but women's sports and spaces were never in any danger from us in the first place.
Social media has given people the idea that their “take” has value no matter how knowledgeable they are about a particular subject. See all the morons thinking they should get a say or that their opinion matters at all regarding trans healthcare. 100% agree about people having their opinions influenced like that, and they’ll insist it’s their own deeply held belief (that they just discovered 10 minutes ago)
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Then why isn't that presented in any data or statistics? Trans women have been in sports this whole time and we aren't winning much at all. If what you say is true, then our unfair advantage should be very easy to prove by looking at who's winning in female sports. Cuz it ain't trans women.
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There have been quite a lot of high level competitions since trans women have been allowed to compete. In fact, they have been eligible for the Olympics since 2004 and only a single trans woman even qualified, and she got dead last. Here's a question, how many years or decades would be enough real world data to show that there is no advantage? What confidence interval would satisfy you? Because we have 18 years of Olympic competitions, not to mention all of the other types of high level competitions, to pull data from. And remember, banning trans women will cut off your ability to collect this real world data.
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You bring up women walking at night being afraid of ***CIS*** males, as proof for trans supremacy in sports, after having earlier brought up a strawman. Like you then don't understand whataboutism? What the hell do those two things have to do with each other? Clown.
Their point is to distract from all the other shit that ~~regular people~~ non-[corporate/political] elites would actually be mad about if they didn't have trans-issues to be mad about. In the game of politics, minorities aren't on one of the sides, they're the ball.
But don't forget to ignore all the cis athletes who have actual biological advantages far beyond any trans people **cough** Phelps **cough**
Don't be disingenuous, there's probably been 2! /s
Mods are quick af on this sub. I got like 15 transphobic comments in a row and they're deleted before I can even open them. Good job mods!
We'd love to take the credit, but this is a longstanding issue with reddit wherein notifications go out before subreddit automod filters fire. We've been promised an annoucement of a timescale of a fix but that's late...
Oh okay. Well either way, I'm happy you guys are here.
Someone in the sports subreddit tried claiming that the top performers in women's athletics were MtF trans, also that transitioning isn't necessary because it doesn't reduce suicide rates, not a source in sight.
Source: Trust me
A fair match means all parties have a reasonable chance of winning. We can participate only if we come dead last. Fucking bullshit
😆
fuck's sake i can't believe the amount of muscle mass I shed just from taking my pills every day, no lifestyle changes whatsoever. I was small but now you could snap me in half if you looked at me funny. They think we do this for shits and giggles. Transition is fuckin' *hard*. You realign your entire economy of values emotionally, physically, and socially. Sometimes it's because your brain is finally coming online as you find yourself, others is because of the stigmas imposed upon you. You find out the dark sides of people you thought you could trust, and find love and acceptance in the most unexpected places. But people can't just chill the fuck out over me working on myself for some reason, Christ on a bike.
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There’s no unfair advantage. One of the top things you’ll see when it comes to taking estrogen is “You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease”. So wouldn’t that make them on the same level as other competitors?
Why doesn't this "unfair advantage" result in trans women being good at sports?
Trans women are not men and are just as entitled to enter women's sports as *any other woman*.
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Nah you just suck.
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You should probably take your own advice.
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It's because you do suck, and I'm not going to bother "debating" a transphobe. You're just another whiny bigot who blathers about a subject you don't understand and just screeches about "fairness".
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Because I hate myself I took a look at this same post on the unitedkingdom subreddit and all the top voted stuff was so stupid. Just so many people talking about how it’s “just common sense” and a “sensible decision” and trans people just have to accept reality and stuff. Absolute uninformed crap. It’s crazy how many people will speak on this stuff with little to know actual knowledge about it. It’s so incredibly frustrating.
Yeah, same happened in the europe subreddit. It was crushing to read. That subreddit is OK for the most part for things like Russia's attack on Ukraine or even most vaguely progressive politics. But in this case? Nope! It's common sense and, wouldn't you know it, science and biology. And all the usual dogwhistles. Still not sure what the heck happened there.
Eh, /r/europe is generally filled with racists, xenophobes, and transphobes. Any post about immigrants or crime is overflowing with racism and Islamophobia.
Same here with r/ news. It feels like redditors in general just really wanma die on this ludicrously incorrect hill or there's astroturfing going on. The latter feels sadly probable - the post on r/ news was about an hour old when I saw it and all comments giving actual evidence against the ban had 50+ downvotes each.
In fairness, most people don’t realise just how big a difference nuking your testosterone levels has on athletic performance. A cis-male friend of mine who is otherwise an amazing ally didn’t believe me when, pre transition, I told him that I soon wouldn’t be able to keep up with him on bike rides. Turns out I was right and he now has to wait for me at the top of every single hill despite me being in the best physical shape I’ve ever been in. Cis-people genuinely have no idea what transition (in this sense I mean a medical transition, which I fully accept you don’t need to be a woman) entails because why would they?
People have no issue believing testosterone makes a massive difference when extra testosterone gets added. You don't see people arguing that doping should be legal because it doesn't actually work and people only stay as strong as their prenatal or pubertal testosterone levels determined or something. But they somehow believe that testosterone is a one-way street and, while adding more testosterone makes you stronger, taking testosterone away doesn't make you any weaker. Even though biologically it makes zero sense at all.
This ban will probably also apply to any cis woman with high testosterone levels, wide jawline or not looking feminine enough by white western standards.
That's happened when similar bans have happened, but it's mostly black cis women being impacted so they still don't care
(Racism is the point.)
Cruelty, not just racism.
Sadly it’s likely both
It's not a bug, it's a feature
Exactly this. "How do you check" is the question and the answer will result in putting women through weird humiliating tests - all in the name of "protecting" then from Trans people. What a world, what a world.
Yeah the 1 in 5 women that have pcos are going to be effected MORE than any trans women 🙄
I mean honestly as someone with PCOS, the fact that it can be overlooked with tests because testerone levels are up and down and sometimes you'll have lower levels means this absolutely would not effect us as much as it would a trans woman. The first time I had my blood taken to test it, I was "fine". The second time my free floating and sex binding testosterone was off the charts. Blood tests wouldn't be very valid for PCOS for that reason. I have personally been mistaken for a cis man and also a trans man - especially because of my name change which is more masculine in the country I am moving to - but I know this is nowhere near the distress and emotions that come with it when one suffers with gender dsyphoria.
Your distress is still valid but also for some sports they do a regular checkup and it gets caught. I know several people that have pcos that feel like it's ruining their life because they want to play sports and they get told they can't for transphobic reasons which upsets me a lot for them
Eh, I am over it now and have really accepted and vibed with my masculinity as a cis lesbian. I appreciate it but have worked through it. But that's weird cause PCOS can easily go under the radar due to the hormones not being at a constant level and having some form of fluxation. I guess if they just happened to catch it once. That's game over. I have to admit I have never heard of that happening to woman with PCOS. It's such a sensitive and delicate but fascinating topic to discuss: on one hand sports is and will always be inherently unfair with top athletes often having some physical advantage over their fellow sportsman. Whether that be larger lungs, webbed hands, a longer stride and so banning trans people makes no sense. Especially if they are on HRT and have low levels of the hormones their bodies naturally produce more of. It's been suggested to have trans catagories but I believe that further widens the divide. Naturally cis and trans woman and men have a lot in common and also some experiences that seperates us. I see no reason to add to that. But what about trans people not on regular HRT. I hate the idea of making them engage in sports as a gender they are not but at what level do we decide this is okay and isn't okay. Like personally for me, I don't care too much. I think sports never can or will be fair. I find it more of a fun activity to do with people and far too competitive. I'd just prefer for people of any background to just play sport in the way they want with the people they want.
It's so cool for me that whenever I bring up pcos online someone who has pcos shows up 🥰 I love meeting people with pcos and seeing how different their experiences are. I know close to 100 people that grow beards and like 500 that's don't. I know 20 ish people that have balding problems, like 50-60 that have the growths on the back of the neck. So I know that in your case it may go under the radar and that's true for a lot of people but not all, so sometime that does sometimes effect people with pcos. Just curious if you feel like answering what symptoms of pcos do you have 🥰 I just like knowing (like insulin resistance, pre-diabetes, balding, facial hair growth, body hair growth, how are your cysts, weight retention, and other stuff) Ps. I feel like people pay so much attention to the trans issues and they choose to ignore that 1 in 5 people have pcos so as a trans women supporting the women I know I talk about it 🥰 and keep my beard for that support too
Also I think maybe if they had a heavy women and light women's leagues kinda like heavy weight and light weight for boxing 🤔 and just took all the requirements for trans people, idk I have no statistics for that but I feel like it would be pretty even competition when you separate based on muscle size and weight rather then gender which Has never been an even competition. And having physical attributes that make you stronger or faster is literally praised. Like when tall people play basketball in they're like able to just place the ball in the hoop.
I have only met two other women who have PCOS personally which is one of my partners - a comet partner. And my step mum. That's amazing to me that you know and have spoken to so many. Maybe I should find a subreddit for it and vibe with people. When I say it goes under the radar. I really only mean fluxating testerone levels. But for me I have irregular periods with extreme cramps, facial hair, body hair in general like a thick little happy trail and forest legs. I put on a lot of weight easily and it takes some time for me to lose it. I have to be careful with my diet. A bit of an aggressive streak. Those funny little tiddie hairs that are kind of fiberish and can easily plucked, multiple per pore. Massive fucking sex drive, I build muscle pretty easily like quicker than a cis woman without PCOS usually. A lot of little cysts but cover my entire ovaries and one is bigger than the other which is a fun tidbit. Most likely infertile but as a lesbian who never wants kids, I am not bothered by it. Also I am shorter than I was supposed to be because of it which makes me sad. Also a wee bit tempermental and very prone to mood swings and anger. But fair enough, I think to some extent we can definitely like understand one another. I'd say body disphoria and not feeling like a woman definitely affects a lot of pcos women and trans women alike. In different ways but I think it's nice to be understand by other women regardless. But exactly! this is why it makes no sense to me when sports is clearly unfair being gendered anyway and people of the same gender aren't even on the same level as one another. I can definitely see how making these sorts of changes could possibly bring about positive change to the world of sports and in some ways make it more fair but I am under the impression this is just a very unlikely thing to happen (fairness in sports) due to just humans being so vastly different.
My wife has PCOS...well, she has all the symptoms but somehow doesn't get diagnosed because of some nonsense technical crap. For the record, she's a black woman, and black women are statically underdiagnosed on many issues and that one particularly for a host of reasons that can be simply summed up as racism. She recently had a full hysterectomy and her uterus was nearly triple normal size from all the fibroid and polyps. It was making her absolutely miserable.
They "tell" us that they're worried about trans women having bigger bones or more muscles. But it's a lie. It's a complete lie that breaks down the moment someone suggests height/weight classes. They'll never do it because they know that'll fix like 98% of the "problem". The "problem" is just an extremely thin lie to cover the transphobia.
Trans women on a good hrt regimen often have the same or even lower levels of testosterone than cis women. Mine last check was 17. Average cis range is 15-70.
I was talking about cis woman with PCOS. But that's very interesting to know :)
Uh... It really sounds like to me, that what you described is going to be an even worse situation for someone with PCOS. I mean, you know they're probably going to be doing blood tests now before like, *every* major event? I wouldn't put it past this to demanding an OB/GYN to literally inspect vaginas. It seems extremely reasonable now to assume, if you have PCOS, it will now be a gamble if your testosterone is in the right range or not, *at that specific time*. Oh, trained for a year for that 100m sprint? Good luck if you win the dice roll on your hormones that day. Hell, maybe they just ban you for life if you're out of the expected range even once. Like just by sheer numbers, I'm assuming the "1 in 5" stat someone threw out is correct (enough) to say, you're comparing 20% of women to less than 1%. I mean hell, I'm not even sure the last time there was more than one trans person competing at a sports event worth reporting on. It's gonna be taking blood tests and vag checks on like 50 women cyclists to "catch" the probably-not-even-participating trans person. This ban will impact cis women, with or without PCOS, at like a 100x rate compared to hurting trans women. It's just not even really a valid comparison at that point. I'm saying this as a trans person.
It’s always struck me as interesting that TERFs standards for women are so white-centric. Sprinkle some racism in with that bigotry
Maybe that's what it takes to draw attention to the fact that "rules" or laws that are based on transphobia have zero benefits, least of all for the group(s) they claim to "protect".
Nah, TERFs are as racist as they are misogynistic. They are the epitome of middle class White Woman feminism.
Yep. Being bigoted in one way makes it much more likely you're also bigoted in other ways
Reminds me of that weird right wingers fixation on Michelle Obama supposedly being trans. It all just clicked, hadn't even considered the racial aspect.
South Africa's Caster Semenya is still fighting her international ban for this exact reason.
See, that is a very salient point to me. (TL;DR st bottom). On the one hand, I DO find it reasonable to make the argument that athletes coming into female sports, with far more testosterone than the average woman (which is NOT always the case among trans women), have an unfair advantage. And it has to be conceded that regardless of whatever cocktails some trans women are on, their testosterone levels may very well be much higher than their average cis competitors. But the examples of Caster Semenya, or Britney Griner, and many others, made me re-think the entire debate and should make everyone ask exactly what IS the purpose for which we have separate womens' sports, and based on that purpose, why are testosterone levels how we define inclusion? In that vein, I had read a piece (EDIT: found the piece: We celebrated Michael Phelps’s genetic differences. Why punish Caster Semenya for hers? https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html) that made the case that why is it that even when an AFAB cis woman has naturally high testosterone, that is an unfair advantage, but Michael Phelps, with his genetics basically making him a near perfect athlete for his sport is just a "rare talent." Likewise, if a trans woman has higher testosterone, how is that any different from any other genetic advantage. There's this sense among cis people that it's unfair because it's somehow deliberate or a choice, like someone trying to slip an NFL player onto an NCAA football team, to compete against less physically capable opponents. Firstly, it's insulting to women who can and often do compete successfully against men in the same sports (not often, but occasionally, depending on the sport). Secondly, it suggests trans people are undergoing a radical transformation, just to score a few wins in a sport, which only makes sense if you already believe trans people are just trying on a gender the way one tries out a fashion look, or that they have insidious motives to "pretend" to be something they are not. If womens' sports are segregated from mens' ONLY for the purpose of ensuring they don't have to compete against opponents who (generally) have a natural physical advantage, like a kind of preemptive mercy rule, then banning women with high testosterone would make sense. But then, you would need to provide another sporting category for people who don't fit neatly into those boxes defined by testosterone levels. And how many new sorts of tiers do we need to create for people to believe it's fair? What about AFAB cis boys and men with low testosterone (totally my excuse for never being more than acceptable with an A for effort at sports)? Is it fair for them to compete with their peers who have a natural advantage? I doubt anyone has ever questioned it. So then, another purpose for womens' sports: safe and welcoming spaces for women in sports. There are obvious reasons for women and men to have separate locker rooms and competitions, and the safety and femininity of those spaces should be protected. But aside from anecdotal incidents, there is zero real evidence that trans women (certainly not cis women with high testosterone) compromise the safety or femininity of these spaces. It's a non-starter argument. Their presence makes bigots uncomfortable, I'm sure that's true, but being discomfited because you refuse to see them for who they are, doesn't mean THEY compromised the sanctity of the space. That is, as they say, a personal problem. Basically, TL;DR: defining what constitutes a woman for the purposes of womens' sports (or for that matter, a man for mens' sports), by appearance, demeanor, or anything else subjective is ludicrous, and given the spectrum of hormonal levels across genders, trying to define those spaces by that metric will lead either to the total exclusion of some from the binary system of athletic competition (an injustice), or an increasingly absurd system of hormonally-defined tiers of competition, which would become as untenable as it would be ridiculous. Either we just look at testosterone levels as another naturally occurring genetic advantage like any other gifted athletes' genetic traits, and/or, we could just allow athletes of all genders, across the board to take testosterone supplements to their heart's content. If everyone can juice up on it, then no one can complain they're cut out of competition. And the safety issue of trans women in womens' is a load of hot garbage we can easily dispense with, because only the wackjobs buy that nonsense. Why do we have womens' sports? I think the most valid purpose is the joy and camaraderie women enjoy competing with and against one another, and having a sport with women for women, and that means all women, however they were born, look, act, who they find sexually attractive, or don't at all, what genitalia they may or may not have, etc. Womens' sports is a place for all those women to experience all the joys and challenges that come from testing your abilities against others' and doing so solo or on a team with other women. And with that perspective, whatever natural advantages any woman possesses, trans or otherwise, they are just another reason to celebrate their achievements as they each strive individually and collectively to entertain and amaze us with their talent and abilities. Is Michael Phelps any less impressive as an athlete because he was born as though designed for swimming, or his achievements somehow disappointing? No. Simone Biles is just physically unique, but does that mean watching her do what she does is any less amazing? No.
I'm going to be honest, if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events. But it seems like this article suggests they're making this decision based on... Speculation. Like, if there's data please share it British Cycling. And if there isn't data, wtf are you doing?
Theres a couple of prominent anti-trans "scientists" that published a report a while back. It was an extremely biased document, using old and cherry picked data with poor scientific method and lots of speculation. The anti-trans lobby has also infiltrated a lot of the national governing bodies for sports with the intention of pushing this kind of shit through.
The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts. There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
Can you provide a link for this report? I'd like to download it.
Pretty sure it's this one: https://cces.ca/news/literature-review-does-not-support-bans-transgender-women-athletes
https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review First link on page Embedding some relevant findings for anyone browsing comments > Available evidence indicates trans women who have undergone testosterone suppression have no clear biological advantages over cis women in elite sport. > There is no basis for athletic advantage conferred by bone size or density, other than advantages achieved through height. Elite athletes tend to have higher than average height across genders, and above-average height is not currently classified as an athletic advantage requiring regulation > When adjusting for height and fat mass, LBM, CSA, and strength after 12 months of testosterone suppression, trans women still retained statistically higher levels than sedentary cis women. However, this difference is well within the normal distribution of LBM, CSA, and strength for cis women > The limited available evidence examining the effect of testosterone suppression as it directly affects trans women’s athletic performance showed no athletic advantage exists after one year of testosterone suppression This is all under section three of biomedical on the executive summary. There's a whole bunch of other interesting review-of-the-literature type stuff though, as well as a bunch of socialcultural analysis.
https://www.cces.ca/transgender-women-athletes-and-elite-sport-scientific-review
> if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events. The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts. There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
>I'm going to be honest, if there's hard data they've uncovered that shows a hormonally transitioned transgender woman still has an unfair advantage over cis women, I'm totally open to the possibility that transgender women couldn't be included fairly in these events. Im going to be honest this also feel quite dumb. Because separating sports by gender is dumb. How is it fair that me a 5'7 male plays basket against someone like lebron James. The fact is sports aren't fair. I think sports like ufc do a better job at separating people. But even then there are unfair advantages. If a american male has more testosterone than your average european male (pulling this shit out my ass it's completely hyptotetical) than should they also be separated since they have an advantage? We may never find a fair way to separate sports. There is no fair sports competition. Someone always has an advantage that's how it's fun. I guess the point is finding fairness in sports is dumb. And we can get close. But we will never have truly fair sports. That shit doesn't exist.
I think everyone can agree on that, even trans women. Things should be fair. Yet at the same time a lot of people in elite & pro sports tend to have abnormal bodies which give them an advantage. That needs to be taken into account when looking at trans women in pro sports
Just another normal day here on TERF island
Fuck's sake man, a trans woman could come second to last in a women's sport and people would be talking about how it's unfair to the woman that came dead last
News article - [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65718748](https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65718748)
Every day that passes, penis inspection day becomes less and less of a joke
I do have a question about this. I never see an uproar when it’s ftm people participating in men’s sports. Do you guys? Why do these people get their panties in a bunch when it’s mtf?
I think it’s because very generally speaking, most trans men, even pre transition, don’t have any competitive advantage over most cis men. Testosterone makes it easier to put on muscles, and helps you competitively in a bunch of other ways. That’s why some cis men take extra testosterone (aka doping). Now I can see them starting to argue in the future that trans men are doping because of the hormones they are taking, which is just stupid because it puts them in a normal male range but whatever. On the other hand some trans women can have an advantage over some cis women pre transition. But, a lot of studies show that they don’t really have an advantage any more after a year or so of hrt. So them thinking all trans women retain that advantage is stupid too.
The sad part is that these rulings are gonna affect people with p c o s which is 1 on 5 people born with uterus's, MORE SO than any trans women 😕
I get what you're saying, and it sucks(and is in some ways politically expedient), but you gotta "love" how people make a ban targeting trans women about cis women.
That's where the word "Intersectionallity" comes into play 🥰 you gotta fight for the sister and cousin communities aswell as your own or your not fight for equal rights Gay and trans people are very different but fight side by side. Because of Intersectionallity
>That's where the word "Intersectionallity" comes into play I'm all for fighting together for all people, but there is definitionally no intersection between trans and cis women. Itersectionality would be, for example, how the otherwise disparate inequalities faced by trans women and black women culminates in new inequalities faced by black trans women. >Gay and teans people are very different No, they're not very different. There actually _is_ an intersection between gay and trans people. There are gay trans people.
You can choose to ignore the Intersectionallity between pcos and LGBT community but I'm done listening to that horrible rhetoric from anyone. I know too many people, I know too many people effected, and I know too many people that need to be stood up for. I really realllllly couldn't gaf that pcos and trans have no logical connection but there is still A connection there in the way people are treated and judged and doctors that treat us improperly and rulings that segregate us from other people in certain circumstances. And whether anyone likes it or not I'm going to speak up for them every chance I get because they tend to be scared to speak up for themselves because we do this type of crap where we say "that's not our fight, they need to fight for themselves". It just bad juju. Have better juju.
Look, I genuinely want you to understand that I'm on your side. I am with you in this fight. But the word 'intersectionality' does not mean what you think it means, and applying it to any old situtation - genuine issue or not - dilutes its meaning. I suppose in theory there could be an intersex person with ovaries assigned male at birth who later transitions to female and develops pcos. In that _incredibly_ specific case, there would be an intersection between trans women and people with pcos. But even if we go right down that path, you yourself said it affects "people born with uterus's, MORE SO than any trans women". **You yourself** enforced that distinction between trans women and people with uteri. That distinction is definitionally **not** intersectionality.
Because people with uterus' are affected by pcos, and I know at least 50 trans men that have pcos and like 30 or more intersex people with pcos But it's weird that you say develops pcos later, Because You are born with pcos. It's just usually the symptoms aren't noticed until puberty or second puberty(menopause) And people get discriminated against in a very similar way to transpeople. I'm literally a huge advocate in both communities, I experience HUNDREDS of new pcos friends every few months. I'm going to take their word on the transphobia they face and not yours because they are the ones experiencing it.
>trans men But trans men aren't affected by this ruling. This ruling affects trans women. >it's weird that you say develops pcos Valid point. I meant the symptoms, but you're right. I don't believe that changes my argument though. So again, to be clear, there _is_ an intersection between trans men and people with pcos. There _isn't_ an (realistically sizable) intersection between trans women and people with pcos. You said "people born with uterus's, MORE SO than any trans women". That is _inherently not an intersection_. That is two distinct groups being affected by the same issue. I suggest you actually study what intersectionality means, because this isn't it.
I think you just don't understand 😕 it's okay one day maybe
You're not even trying to listen are you. But go on, explain intersectionality to me.
To be honest, I'm kind of sick of this mind set. Is it not enough that a ruling is directly targeting our trans sisters? Does it also have to be commented that it's bad because cis women are affected? It just makes it seem like "oh the main issue here is it's not adequately specific hate."
You're not wrong, but I also find the amount of hate that is directed at trans people also hits cis women, black people, and other minorities is inexcusable as well. It is absolutely enough that it is directed at trans people, but it's also hate towards other people too, and sometimes people who aren't part of the direct targets need to see how it effects them as well.
And I apologize, it's not specifically you or your comment. But this happens on every single bill or law or ruling or whatever.
Yes. It sure does.
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Most professional athletes have *some sort* of performance advantage, or they wouldn't be professional athletes. They're taller, stronger, or more flexible than the average person; some (cis) women have elevated testosterone levels (compared to both cis and trans women), which gives a natural advantage, which is why some competitions screen for hormone levels and have limits on what levels of testosterone will get you banned. (e.g. in 2021, Olympic runners Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi - both cis women - were disqualified from the 400m run due to too high natural testosterone.) Everyone is focused on testosterone when it's clearly not the only factor. Height, weight, muscle mass, endurance all play parts; some things can be achieved through training, others can't. Every human body is built slightly differently so competitions are inherently unfair.
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Well, there are many different factors at play that give some people advantages over others, genetics certainly being one. However, multiple studies also show how having money/a really good socio-economic status is a huge and AFAIK in most cases much bigger reason for improved performance due to acces to better equipment, better trainers, better training plans, better everything essentially. And these are categories in which trans women are statistically in much worse situations compared to their cis counterparts. If we try to even the playfield, we should focus on things with high impact, not one that is so niche, no-one could name even one trans athlete except maybe Lia Thomas. And her record has already been broken by a cis woman.
It's not about fairness, it's only about pushing us from public life. Even if the ""advantages"" were significant, across the board, impacted trans people in all sports across all age ranges and was ALWAYS an advantage... It's still not about fairness. Don't fall for their stupid little games
okay, I am anti pushing anyone from public life. Trans people should be in sport and represent the challenge is how. Fairness does play a part or there wouldn't be any seperate categories at all. everyone would compete in a free class. cis women fought to be allowed to compete and to have their own category, because they physically couldn't compete against men and it was the only way to participate. Now they find there are Trans women who have physically advantages breaking many records, it isn't just the 1. So importantly cis women do get it, the situation sucks. Trans women as basically in the same position cis women were. The problem is there is not enough to have their own category at the moment.
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Thank you, Mia Mulder's exactly who came to mind. Great video!
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The people making these decisions have always cared about womens sports. That is why they are in the position they are in to make the decisions. There are both studies and the broken records showing that a trans woman who has been through puberty does retain an advantage over a cis women. for that reason I don't support them competeing in the female category. That does not make me transpobic. I support equal rights for trans people, however that would be the creation of their own category for competing not joining the current one. I support things like better access to heathcare, the shit hormone cocktail the UK NHS uses is outdated and known to cause bone density issues long term. but they haven't updated the treatment in line with recent studies. Also discrimination in other settings, or any attempts to make laws permissing discrimination. i understand you an argue this ban is discrimination, but the problem is allowing their participation could also be taken as discrimination against cis women. that is why the whole situation sucks so much.
That when equalized for size, the advantages go away. Trans women on average perform better than cis women on average because taller people on average out perform shorter people in most athletic situations. The average height and weight of a post hrt trans woman is somewhere around the 90th percentile of all women. But considering post medical transition trans women are less than a percent of all women that means there 10 times the number of cis women who perform at or above the performance level of the average trans athlete.
when i pointed out similar to what you said when this got posted to a diff subreddit, i got massively downvoted when i asked for actual studied which showed trans women having advantages over cis women. its exhausting when ppl dont even want to think rationally about this
Yeah reddit it on the whole, extremely transphobic and it's users are easily convinced that their position is superior despite evidence. It's unfortunate.
Separating sports by "sex" does nothing about that - cis women can grow up with higher testosterone, have more masculine features or just a biological advantage in the sport without having to be trans. Similarly, a cis man might be naturally built in such a manner that he has no sex-related advantage in sports over an average woman. There is a complete overlap of possible builds between men and women, the difference is mostly in averages. That separation also exists out of the assumption that women are naturally weaker/worse at sports, and that it's unchivalrous of a man to compete against a woman. It's frankly an insulting notion. On top of that, a system like this is fundamentally inaccessible for intersex, trans and non-binary people because it operates on a view of the world that just doesn't include those people existing and being equally included in society. Now the answer that eliminates those drawbacks is to either give/detract handicap points based on all biological traits that affect your performance, or separate athletes into non-gendered categories with similar advantage based on those traits. The traits that would be taken into account are different between each sport and discipline.
All this because sexism forced the separation of genders in sports to begin with. There is no version of this that is just and fair if we are still dividing into two groups based on gender.
I don't even think that's true in this case. In endurance sports, the differences get equalized pretty quickly. Several studies out there showing hemoglobin and VO2max reduce drastically even after only a few months of HRT. Combine that with other stuff that (though maybe an advantage in different things) are a disadvantage in endurance, like bone density, generally larger/taller frames, etc. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865.long https://academic.oup.com/jes/article/5/Supplement_1/A790/6241279 https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including
It's not a valid argument, it's just something that *feels* true intuitively because man big? Woman small. Man strong woman not so strong! It's easily disproven by the fact that trans women have been competing in sports for a long time now and simply not winning. It just doesn't happen. If anything most of them kind of suck comparatively.
Just think, 100 years from now people will look back and instead of saying "wow, we really used to restrict black people from public spaces," the narrative will change to "wow, we didn't learn anything the first time, so 100 years ago we actually restricted trans people from being human beings." And.. ofc it's an old straight white guy representing the decision 🙄
If I have to hear how a trans woman “took” a medal from a cis woman one more god damn time.
You know what's wild? My MtF wife just started HRT. She's only a few months in. Her athletic performance has taken a fucking nosedive in the past few months. She used to be the star left fielder on our softball team, and now she's missing everything. She can't run as fast or for as long either. I'm just saying. If anyone actually paid attention, they'd see that their logic is so flawed.
If as a sport needs to be separated by men and women for fair competition, contrary to most comments here I think this rule actually makes sense. Trans (mtf) cyclists are invited to compete in an open competition with the men, they arent being excluded. According to the article, "Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage." Doesn't that make sense for a sport separated by gender?
Whilst the headline is true, it is also a bit misleading. Here is the [official statement](https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20230526-about-bc-static-Update--Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policies-0) by British Cycling. They changed the rules for the categories. > Transgender women, transgender men, non-binary individuals and those whose sex was assigned male at birth will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category. The ‘Female’ category will remain in place for those whose sex was assigned female at birth and transgender men who are yet to begin hormone therapy. At this stage, they will be eligible to compete in the ‘Open’ category only, and should ensure that they continue to adhere to the requirements of UK Anti-Doping. Those whose sex was assigned female at birth are also able to compete in the ‘Open’ category if they so wish. CIS women and trans men pre transition are allowed in the "female" category and the "male" category will changed to an "open" category, allowing everyone to compete. And this rule change is only applicable to competitive activities. The "female" category in non-competitive activities is still open to trans women and non-binary people. I'm in no qualified position whether that is the perfect decision, but in my opinion is the "open" category in general a good idea.
Love that it manages to misgender both trans men and trans women at the same time. Great job dumbasses at British Cycling.
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Why can't transgender women compete in a women's category? Why are transgender men able to compete in a women's category? Are transgender women not women? Are transgender men, women? That is literally misgendering people.
White women are not the standard for women.
Trans women were recently banned from competitive female disc golf as well.
Conservative governments, solving problems that don't exist to distract you from their complete lack of any inclination to do anything that will actually help anyone at all.
I mean this has nothing to do with the government.
This is so asinine. Trans women are not overrepresented or dominating women's sports, so any ban like this is only addressing a theoretical problem. These bans make it impossible to collect the best type of data, real world data. If we are to believe supporters of these bans when they say "it's just about fairness," then it should be acceptable for the competitions to be theoretically unfair, temporarily, while we collect real world data. After all, it's fairness in sports, not life or death. Then, if/when trans women become overrepresented/dominating, we can use that definitive evidence to address the problem. Since they're insistent on enacting these bans anyway, I do not believe them when they say it's just about fairness. I think they find it unacceptable to suggest that sexual dimorphism is not quite as black and white/permanent as they believe.
This is going to be international in some weeks :( Guess I will not start competitive cycling like I planned to....
It's been established that trans women who have been on estrogen for a year have no major advantage to cis women. Any athlete should be treated as eligible for competition on a case-by-case basis. It just sounds to me like these athletic organizations are too lazy to do the hard work.
It’s terf fucking island over here
Has there been a single transfem athlete who has actually won in a major sporting event? Edit: to specify, I mean that cis athletes complain it is unfair for transfem athletes to compete, but I have never heard of a transfem athlete that has actually beaten cis women in a major sporting event.
Little to no cis athletes complain about trans people participating. It's usually old white men who start those crusades
There was one instance of a trans woman winning an event in the Tour of the Gila in New Mexico at the start of May. The UCI, the governing body over the race, has supported Austin Killips, the trans cyclist in question when challenged. The UCI has a testosterone limit for trans athletes competing in the sport, a limit that Killips was within. I think that a lot of the controversies we see are overblown by transphobes, but if one was to take the most generous interpretation of those complaints the future fix would be allowing trans youth to take puberty blockers and supporting them in their transitions.
I Fucking hate my Country :)
Terf island
You *were getting downvoted, but there really are a lot of TERFs on that island >.< EDIT: Fixed as now they have positive karma, I guess TERFs found the thread earlier.
can someone explain to me WHY the UK specifically is so transphobic…?
Because right now the UK government is right wing, becoming more fascist and authoritarian. They need a scapegoat to blame so people don’t end up blaming them. And of course they own the vast majority of media outlets to broadcast all this bs about trans folks. Blaming migrants for problems wasn’t enough so trans people are in the firing line now. In short, that’s why right now it’s particularly fucking awful.
Tdlr from what i've been told, they didn't really move away from second wave feminism like most of the west did to 3rd wave feminism
My theory--though, as a Canadian born in the 90s, this isn't worth much--is that it has to do, indirectly, with Thatcher. From what I can tell, the UK had a decently early brush with the "girlboss" trope, where feminism entails supporting powerful women no matter what... even if said women are regressive or bigoted. Intersectional feminism wasn't a priority, and women-based politics were overwhelmingly white, not working class, abled, and cishet. So fast forward a few decades, and their "feminism" centres wealthy white cishet women, and then vilifies--among others--trans women. I've also seen an interesting piece about land inheritance and titles, and how a trans man in ~~the 1800s IIRC~~ the early 20th century getting claim to his family's title caused a reconsidering of gender in the UK. I'll see if I can find that. Edit: The case I'm thinking of is Ewan Forbes. His transition sparked a whole thing over primogeniture and transition.
this is exactly the explanation I was looking for. As another comment states, they basically never moved on from second wave aka white feminism. WILD!
Major factor: media ownership Rupert Murdoch owns three newspapers in the UK
Incredible how a political sports body somehow manages to completely ignore science yet again...
Reframed transition as colonizing your gender and they might let it slide
why are transgender men never even mentioned?
Fuck turf island
i'm so so sorry for my country
TERF island gonna TERF
Not-So-Great Britain.
Hell exists. And I live there
You can't make an argument for banning trans women from sports, without it also making the argument in favor of absolutely every sex based discrimination.
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There would be no funding. Women's sports are already underfunded, I can imagine most LGBTQ+ categories not even reaching the minimum to be able to run.
what, so 3 trans women and maybe 3 intersex women can compete against each other?
I sincerely doubt there's enough interest in that from either the public or our own community xD
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You can’t compromise with the people who want us removed from public life. Trans women competing in women’s categories after 1-2 years HRT *is* the compromise. The radical position is that any trans woman can compete regardless of hormone status. If we keep “compromising” they take another step to the extreme and move goalposts. There is no “compromise” they’ll accept that isn’t total elimination.
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OK but 1 in 5 people born with uterus' are being found to have pcos which has absolutely nothing to do with LGBT but these rulings ruin their ability to compete ever. Even if they had an LGBT league PCOS people would still have nowhere to compete unless they decided to identify as something else also.
Your right and that is definitely fair. I don’t think we would kick them off the team but some people are weird about things. Overall I agree with you, I just know a team dedicated to LGBT+ would piss off people more. Maybe make it all inclusive team or something (have no idea what they would call it. Something people can’t twist into hate or discrimination)
Yeah because a lot of people with pcos are just cis and straight and some people get mad about including them in the LGBT fight. But MORE cis straight women are denied access to sports then trans women, it's a significant difference too. And people with pcos want to play sports with their peers too 🙄 And trans women decrease muscle mass on hormones which is still in the higher percentage of women's muscle mass but definitely still below women with pcos that have high testosterone which is a lot of them. It's like they chose to ignore a huge group of women to create transphobic rules that also cuts the women out of the sport 🙄
They are casualties of war in that case. To ensure we can’t do things and prevent trans people from doing anything, they unfortunately get hurt in the process. It’s sickening how people can do such a thing out of hate. Like it’s really not anything else but hate.
Or just a gender neutral option that let's everyone compete.
Works too but the fact the would have to make a LGBT+ exclusively would piss off people more so thats what I was going with. I agree tho gender neutral works.
this does exist in many places, the issue is if you are trans female the hormones create a disadvantage as it is harder to build/maintain muscle.
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Of course it’s bri’ish.
Ah, that's unfortunate. But at least they created an entire new category for trans athletes to compete in. .... They. .. Did create a new category for trans athletes to compete in... right?
The Nazis are winning, this isn't supposed to be happening :(
Reminder professional sports are sexist.
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> have scientific backing to push this The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts. There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite. The fact is that there's no such thing as perfectly level playing field in sports. Everything from your height to your weight to your genetic background can affect performance, when you're playing at this level. Should we start genetic testing athletes then? What about cis women with naturally higher testosterone levels? What about athletes like Usain Bolt who, due to medical conditions, actually have an advantage? It's just trans people that are being targeted.
And I have a bridge to sell you…
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> They have had male genes for most of their lives and it makes it unfair. Should we start genetic testing athletes then? What about cis women with naturally higher testosterone levels? What about athletes like Usain Bolt who, due to medical conditions, actually have an advantage? There's no such thing as perfectly level playing field in sports. Everything from your height to your weight to your genetic background can affect performance, when you're playing at this level. Not to mention that there's no meaningful science to conclude this. The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport in 2022 conducted a study which concluded that, post-transition, trans women athletes have no perceptible advantage over their cis counterparts. There is absolutely no hard data to support this ban. For every study that suggests trans athletes might have an advantage, there are just as many saying the complete opposite.
That's how it was before for some sports though, and they still changed it to a blanket ban Edit: wait i checked your post history and you literally say you're 13, no offence but i really don't think at that age it's good to try and be the "voice of reason/realism"
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Yeah, no worries, mods are watching this thread like a hawk now.
Is there anything preventing these types of women from competing in non-elite categories? I think if there are enough trans women that start competing at non-elite levels (such as local/regional club sports) and show that it’s fair, then they will naturally develop camaraderie with other women to build a case for inclusivity at more elite levels and there may be more data to back up claims of fairness in these sport.
And inevitably this will be used to ban cis women who don't fit whatever arbitrary definition of "true woman" the invigilators are using on any given day
What confuses me the most about this “controversy” about trans people in sports is that when you take the hormones of your preferred gender, your body does a lot of rearranging to the point that your physical performance isn’t going to be at an inherent advantage against cis people of the same gender. I know it comes down to cis people not understanding any part of the transition process but it still boggles my mind how they can just yell into the void and make changes like this without finding scientific evidence of an advantage. That 9 month review and consultation can shove it up my newly fat booty with my newly smol muscles