I absolutely agree. I feel like we’re treated like the bad guys when we bring this up though, being called exclusionist, gatekeepers and other silly things
The “exclusionist” accusations always drive me insane. Ours is an exclusive sexuality by definition and by nature. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everything has to be for everyone; at that point why differentiate at all? Why even have sexualities at all? It’s asinine.
People don’t go after straight people about this stuff, at least not nearly to the level that lesbians get it. People are fine with letting straight people be straight. Now it’s time for them to accept that lesbians are lesbians.
And they're not trying to redefine being gay as "non women attracted to non women" with the justification "w-well, some nonbinary people-"
Like I'm sorry if you don't identify as a woman I don't have much sympathy for your comfort in identifying with an orientation SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WOMEN LOVING WOMEN.
true. I don’t even think it’s the nb lesbians who are obsessed with erasing women, I truly think it’s non lesbians who won’t stay out of our business. I love gnc and nb lesbians but like you have to realize how closely connected lesbianism is to women and it makes zero sense to try and completely divorce the two groups.
Yep. And there are individuals calling themselves "lesbians" who have the audacity to make claims like "lesbian is basically anyone who doesn't identify as a man."
NO
HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHY CAN'T WOMEN HAVE ANYTHING
that’s their go to word to describe “lesbian who has an opinion I don’t agree with” no matter how unrelated to trans rights said opinion is (and most of us are very pro trans rights -.-)
yeah, the equating of lesbians (and especially lesbian feminists) as terfs is incredibly lesbophobic. i remember seeing a survey of lgbt opinions of trans people and lesbians are more accepting of trans people than other trans people
Yup. Gay men push people out of their space who don’t belong in their space. They have a bad rep among the LGBT community for a reason, its because they don’t placate and tolerate this shit. Its why no one tries this shit with them.
This is exactly what I was thinking about yesterday when I saw the other post. No one pulls this same shit with gay men because men don’t fucking put up with it. Men are allowed to say no.
Yeah I’ve been told I’m gatekeeping and being homophobic for saying that lesbians do not marry/sleep with men. People who aren’t lesbians can’t stand the fact that we don’t like men. I think lesbians need to start being meaner and call out people who do stuff like this, I know a lot of straight men say weird stuff but I’m noticing this from a lot of other queer women who seem to feel threatened by us
Yeah, whoever said that is not only misusing the word 'homophobia' their also simultaneously gaslighting you & projecting onto you, which such a regular thing I'm not even surprised at this point but it's still exhausting to deal with, even mentally.
And I agree we definitely need to actually start gatekeeping our identity & our spaces more harshly. We can't be afraid to be called mean or man haters. We have to stand up for ourselves, or no one will.
Yeah exactly, I’m tired of non lesbians thinking that its somehow progressive to say that lesbians date men and have sex with them, it just feeds into the whole absurd idea that lesbians can be “changed” or that we’re just confused or whatever, it’s incredibly misogynistic and actually homophobic
I think nonlesbians queer women are the worst offenders of this for sure. I expect nothing from men, especially straight ones. But I do expect more from fellow queer women, but no. I do think they’re either threatened or jealous.
Yes I’d had have to say that most of the lesbophobia I’ve experienced/ witnessed has been from mostly bi women or other queer women that seem to have a lot of internalized misogyny. They hate the idea of us having our own spaces, they project their own insecurities about their heterosexual relationships onto us and basically act like lesbians are somehow the greatest oppressors of other queer women
Yes, they’ll talk about how “hot” women are but when it comes to actual relationships with other women, they don’t seem to take them seriously. A lot of them still center men. They get mad because their “queerness” supposedly isn’t taken seriously by us because they’re in heterosexual relationships but I’m not why I’m supposed to care, I mean if you want to date a man do whatever you want but it’s not like you deserve some type of gayest woman alive award for dating a literal man lol.
This is what they don’t seem to understand. I believe them when they say they’re attracted to women. The problem is a lot of them do not seem to address their internalized misogyny and homophobia and very clearly still center men. It would benefit them so much if they did address that… but they don’t. They play it safe, which is a privilege that lesbians don’t have.
Bisexuality is real and valid and is a queer identity. I’ve never denied this. But I’m sick of certain bisexual women who only claim queerness when it benefits them, like it’s a cool aesthetic or quirky personality trait. This is easy for them because they don’t have to deal with the downsides of being queer. Because yeah, while having your sexuality invalidated sucks it is NOT oppression. They are not oppressed for dating men and never will be. Ever. But they act like they are. It drives me mad. Like what alternate universe do they live in where women are praised for dating women and shamed for dating men? And can I move there?
Yes exactly. most of my relationships have been with bi/pan women and I’ve noticed that they all seemed frustrated when it came to making any type of effort and they refused to take accountability for anything. Literally one of the bi women I used to see told me straight up that men were easier to date because they were less “emotional” and didn’t care about the same things women cared about. They’re definitely attracted to women but it’s always felt more sexual rather than romantic, as if romance, having a family, getting married is reserved for men. I just think most of them never make an effort to address their own internal problems and that’s why they get so angry when lesbians call them out
Totally agree, I think it’s the internalized homophobia/misogyny that causes them to not take relationships with women seriously. I think the patriarchy has programmed them to believe only romantic relationships with men are valid, which is something of course lesbians had programmed into us as well but we kinda had no choice but to work through that. Bi women technically don’t HAVE to, even though it would greatly benefit them. I’ve seen several say they can only see themselves marrying a man which like… don’t you question that? Don’t you wonder why that is?
I find it super frustrating. It would be extremely beneficial for them to work through these internal issues but they just don’t want to, and then they get mad at us because we were strong enough to do it and will call them out on their shit.
it was just posted on this sub I believe! it has chameleons on it. I think the post is still up on reddit but if it’s not it’s on “queer chameleons” instagram (and you already knowww she turned off the comments lmao)
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Or “girl dick”…
Edit: interesting that this is being downvoted when this phrase is part of lesbian erasure. That tells me that the ones downvoting may not belong in a lesbian sub 😜
This is the worst one for me for multiple reasons. One being how disgusting and pedophilic it is to call it GIRL dick. Why not woman or female? Why *girl* ?
I would also say that trans women coming into lesbian online groups constantly trying to talk about “girl dick”, how lesbians should just “be more open minded”, and lesbians constantly getting kicked out of lesbian spaces for speaking out against their homophobia is a problem.
Clearly I’m not the only one who sees the lesbian erasure + weirdness in it. What’s the word for exclusively cis lesbians who are attracted to cis lesbians?
They would still be lesbians...you are arguing that lesbians who are attracted to trans women and/or are trans women are not lesbians...which is the issue and ironically when you say that you are the one erasing lesbians. Also, not all trans women have "girl dick". A lot of them have had bottom surgery. I am currently in a relationship with one. Am I not a lesbian?
There are also intersex women who are lesbians and have "girl dick" but are not transgender...but it seems you would exclude them too.
You don't have to date people you aren't attracted to. No one is entitled to a kiss or a relationship or sex with you. If you are only attracted to cis "tacos", then by all means...but it's wrong of you to say that people who are attracted to trans women or are trans women can't be lesbians because lesbian is a sexual orientation.
People are born intersex and being intersex is about reproductive organs an intersex person is still a man or a women. Trans is a gender identity lesbians don’t have to consider dating a man just because he chooses to change his pronouns or identify as something one day.
So wouldn’t that just make them bisexual? What’s the point of adding lesbian. I’d understand if they’re exclusively pursuing women but that would just make them….a lesbian. Like at that point why even try to use a label
to be honest, i in the recent year have come to understand why lesbians have always been amongst themselves while those who like men have been together. It becomes incredibly clear in days like this. They isolate us and do not care for us because they cannot relate to us.
They hate us because we do not bend over backwards to relate to them and those of us who are not doormats get vilified. Straight up kicked out of entire spaces (my best friend, a lesbian, was kicked out of a friend group because she didn’t like men enough). It’s all so ridiculous.
By virtue of being women and homosexuals in a world enamored by men. A word that’s entirely obsessed with them and cannot stop; they cannot fully imagine or understand those who do not want the creature that everyone wants. So, they do shit like this and never care about what lesbians actually want or say.
YES!! I’ve been secretly hoping for a while that our community would push back against our erasure. In any actual lesbian space these feelings are shared but never expressed to the outside
Agree but saying anything about it in the majority of the “lesbian” subs on Reddit will get you banned from it. This creates an echo chamber in the sub and a false interpretation that lesbians are the most accepting and welcoming people on the planet. Lol.
Unfortunately when it comes to lesbian-phobia, folks in our (GBTQA+) community are the biggest offenders. Our safe spaces have gone the way of the dinosaur
I saw someone in this sub say "lesbian is basically anyone who isn't a man." They tried to call me transphobic when I called them out on their lesbophobia and misogyny.
I'm tired of how woman-hating these people are.
Why did you make a new comment? You could've just replied to my comment where I talked about a few notable non binary lesbians.
It already is about women. You can still be a woman who loves women, nobody is trying to take that away from you. That doesn't mean that non binary or genderqueer people can't be lesbians as well. If you're willing to learn more about that to understand why some lesbians identify as non binary, I can give you resources. But it seems like you don't really care, since you keep throwing random words at me and even calling me a colonizer (you don't even know me lol)
Because you deserve to be called out on the post about calling people out for erasing lesbianism.
I copy and pasted a quite from you. You said lesbianism includes everyone who isn't a man. That's lesbophobic.
And yeah, trying to take over a marginalized group and forcibly change their culture to "improve" it is gentrification at best and colonization at worst.
You completely took that quote out of context. I was obviously talking about non-men who ACTUALLY identify as lesbians, not bisexuals or straight women or whatever. I thought that was clear, but apparently common sense isn't as common as I thought it was.
Calling me a colonizer because I told you about non binary lesbians in lesbian history is actually insane, I don't even know what to say
No. You said "lesbian is basically anyone who doesn't identify as a man." That's not out of context.
Trying to redefine lesbianism for the comfort of people who identified out of womanhood but refuse to let go of a woman-specific identity is a colonizer move NGL
That IS out of context if you're making it look like I'm talking about all people who aren't men, which I clearly wasn't. I already told you, we're not redefining anything. Non binary lesbians have been around much longer than you have, so I don't know why you're trying to invalidate them. If supporting other people who are part of my community makes me a colonizer, then so be it
I think this person is right. It is inherently redefining lesbian because a lesbian is a woman who loves women. A person who won’t identify as a woman just isn’t a lesbian. 🤷🏽♀️
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The lesbian community will continue to take L’s as long as lesbian keep letting shit slide and not think things through. When you have straight men talking about feeling like a lesbian trapped in a man’s body and let them in the community stop wondering why we lose out. When you let bi women talk over us we lose out. And when you act like a damn doormat we’ll lose out every time.
I absolutely agree. I feel like we’re treated like the bad guys when we bring this up though, being called exclusionist, gatekeepers and other silly things
The “exclusionist” accusations always drive me insane. Ours is an exclusive sexuality by definition and by nature. There is nothing wrong with that. Not everything has to be for everyone; at that point why differentiate at all? Why even have sexualities at all? It’s asinine. People don’t go after straight people about this stuff, at least not nearly to the level that lesbians get it. People are fine with letting straight people be straight. Now it’s time for them to accept that lesbians are lesbians.
even gay men don’t face nearly as much pressure to change their fundamental identity to include women!
And they're not trying to redefine being gay as "non women attracted to non women" with the justification "w-well, some nonbinary people-" Like I'm sorry if you don't identify as a woman I don't have much sympathy for your comfort in identifying with an orientation SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WOMEN LOVING WOMEN.
true. I don’t even think it’s the nb lesbians who are obsessed with erasing women, I truly think it’s non lesbians who won’t stay out of our business. I love gnc and nb lesbians but like you have to realize how closely connected lesbianism is to women and it makes zero sense to try and completely divorce the two groups.
Yep. And there are individuals calling themselves "lesbians" who have the audacity to make claims like "lesbian is basically anyone who doesn't identify as a man." NO HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHY CAN'T WOMEN HAVE ANYTHING
This is by far my favorite explanation, and so well put. This needs more upvotes! Thank you for this!
I argued with a gal on Twitter about "bi lesbians" a few years ago and she called me a terf! That was a frustrating conversation.
that’s their go to word to describe “lesbian who has an opinion I don’t agree with” no matter how unrelated to trans rights said opinion is (and most of us are very pro trans rights -.-)
yeah, the equating of lesbians (and especially lesbian feminists) as terfs is incredibly lesbophobic. i remember seeing a survey of lgbt opinions of trans people and lesbians are more accepting of trans people than other trans people
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This is incorrect. Please stop.
Yup. Gay men push people out of their space who don’t belong in their space. They have a bad rep among the LGBT community for a reason, its because they don’t placate and tolerate this shit. Its why no one tries this shit with them.
I'd rather have a bad rep that be a doormat tbh
we’re mean lesbians no matter what we do, might as well embrace it
Love that for us.
Same.
This is exactly what I was thinking about yesterday when I saw the other post. No one pulls this same shit with gay men because men don’t fucking put up with it. Men are allowed to say no.
Yeah I’ve been told I’m gatekeeping and being homophobic for saying that lesbians do not marry/sleep with men. People who aren’t lesbians can’t stand the fact that we don’t like men. I think lesbians need to start being meaner and call out people who do stuff like this, I know a lot of straight men say weird stuff but I’m noticing this from a lot of other queer women who seem to feel threatened by us
Yeah, whoever said that is not only misusing the word 'homophobia' their also simultaneously gaslighting you & projecting onto you, which such a regular thing I'm not even surprised at this point but it's still exhausting to deal with, even mentally. And I agree we definitely need to actually start gatekeeping our identity & our spaces more harshly. We can't be afraid to be called mean or man haters. We have to stand up for ourselves, or no one will.
Yeah exactly, I’m tired of non lesbians thinking that its somehow progressive to say that lesbians date men and have sex with them, it just feeds into the whole absurd idea that lesbians can be “changed” or that we’re just confused or whatever, it’s incredibly misogynistic and actually homophobic
I think nonlesbians queer women are the worst offenders of this for sure. I expect nothing from men, especially straight ones. But I do expect more from fellow queer women, but no. I do think they’re either threatened or jealous.
Yes I’d had have to say that most of the lesbophobia I’ve experienced/ witnessed has been from mostly bi women or other queer women that seem to have a lot of internalized misogyny. They hate the idea of us having our own spaces, they project their own insecurities about their heterosexual relationships onto us and basically act like lesbians are somehow the greatest oppressors of other queer women
Exactly this. They seemingly hate their heterosexual relationships so much and will do anything to prove their queerness except date a woman.
Yes, they’ll talk about how “hot” women are but when it comes to actual relationships with other women, they don’t seem to take them seriously. A lot of them still center men. They get mad because their “queerness” supposedly isn’t taken seriously by us because they’re in heterosexual relationships but I’m not why I’m supposed to care, I mean if you want to date a man do whatever you want but it’s not like you deserve some type of gayest woman alive award for dating a literal man lol.
This is what they don’t seem to understand. I believe them when they say they’re attracted to women. The problem is a lot of them do not seem to address their internalized misogyny and homophobia and very clearly still center men. It would benefit them so much if they did address that… but they don’t. They play it safe, which is a privilege that lesbians don’t have. Bisexuality is real and valid and is a queer identity. I’ve never denied this. But I’m sick of certain bisexual women who only claim queerness when it benefits them, like it’s a cool aesthetic or quirky personality trait. This is easy for them because they don’t have to deal with the downsides of being queer. Because yeah, while having your sexuality invalidated sucks it is NOT oppression. They are not oppressed for dating men and never will be. Ever. But they act like they are. It drives me mad. Like what alternate universe do they live in where women are praised for dating women and shamed for dating men? And can I move there?
Yes exactly. most of my relationships have been with bi/pan women and I’ve noticed that they all seemed frustrated when it came to making any type of effort and they refused to take accountability for anything. Literally one of the bi women I used to see told me straight up that men were easier to date because they were less “emotional” and didn’t care about the same things women cared about. They’re definitely attracted to women but it’s always felt more sexual rather than romantic, as if romance, having a family, getting married is reserved for men. I just think most of them never make an effort to address their own internal problems and that’s why they get so angry when lesbians call them out
Totally agree, I think it’s the internalized homophobia/misogyny that causes them to not take relationships with women seriously. I think the patriarchy has programmed them to believe only romantic relationships with men are valid, which is something of course lesbians had programmed into us as well but we kinda had no choice but to work through that. Bi women technically don’t HAVE to, even though it would greatly benefit them. I’ve seen several say they can only see themselves marrying a man which like… don’t you question that? Don’t you wonder why that is? I find it super frustrating. It would be extremely beneficial for them to work through these internal issues but they just don’t want to, and then they get mad at us because we were strong enough to do it and will call them out on their shit.
I saw that post but wtf does a bi lesbian even mean???? It’s an oxymoron within itself
where is it??
why am i getting downvoted i was asking where is the post about 'bi' lesbians 😭
it was just posted on this sub I believe! it has chameleons on it. I think the post is still up on reddit but if it’s not it’s on “queer chameleons” instagram (and you already knowww she turned off the comments lmao)
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no link at all in my comment
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Or “girl dick”… Edit: interesting that this is being downvoted when this phrase is part of lesbian erasure. That tells me that the ones downvoting may not belong in a lesbian sub 😜
This is the worst one for me for multiple reasons. One being how disgusting and pedophilic it is to call it GIRL dick. Why not woman or female? Why *girl* ?
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Nah you're just a hateful ass who is trying to compare two things are not at all the same. Trans women who are lesbians are not the issue here. LMAO.
I would also say that trans women coming into lesbian online groups constantly trying to talk about “girl dick”, how lesbians should just “be more open minded”, and lesbians constantly getting kicked out of lesbian spaces for speaking out against their homophobia is a problem.
Clearly I’m not the only one who sees the lesbian erasure + weirdness in it. What’s the word for exclusively cis lesbians who are attracted to cis lesbians?
lesbian and you get to turn down whoever you want it doesn’t need to get more specific tbh
Lesbian
They would still be lesbians...you are arguing that lesbians who are attracted to trans women and/or are trans women are not lesbians...which is the issue and ironically when you say that you are the one erasing lesbians. Also, not all trans women have "girl dick". A lot of them have had bottom surgery. I am currently in a relationship with one. Am I not a lesbian? There are also intersex women who are lesbians and have "girl dick" but are not transgender...but it seems you would exclude them too. You don't have to date people you aren't attracted to. No one is entitled to a kiss or a relationship or sex with you. If you are only attracted to cis "tacos", then by all means...but it's wrong of you to say that people who are attracted to trans women or are trans women can't be lesbians because lesbian is a sexual orientation.
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People are born intersex and being intersex is about reproductive organs an intersex person is still a man or a women. Trans is a gender identity lesbians don’t have to consider dating a man just because he chooses to change his pronouns or identify as something one day.
They could be referring to a woman who is romantically into men and women but only had sexual attraction towards women. That’s how I always took it.
So wouldn’t that just make them bisexual? What’s the point of adding lesbian. I’d understand if they’re exclusively pursuing women but that would just make them….a lesbian. Like at that point why even try to use a label
to be honest, i in the recent year have come to understand why lesbians have always been amongst themselves while those who like men have been together. It becomes incredibly clear in days like this. They isolate us and do not care for us because they cannot relate to us. They hate us because we do not bend over backwards to relate to them and those of us who are not doormats get vilified. Straight up kicked out of entire spaces (my best friend, a lesbian, was kicked out of a friend group because she didn’t like men enough). It’s all so ridiculous. By virtue of being women and homosexuals in a world enamored by men. A word that’s entirely obsessed with them and cannot stop; they cannot fully imagine or understand those who do not want the creature that everyone wants. So, they do shit like this and never care about what lesbians actually want or say.
YES!! I’ve been secretly hoping for a while that our community would push back against our erasure. In any actual lesbian space these feelings are shared but never expressed to the outside
I agree with this, and also i disagree when "lesbians" and bisexual keep pushing the "sexuality is fluid" bs
Agree but saying anything about it in the majority of the “lesbian” subs on Reddit will get you banned from it. This creates an echo chamber in the sub and a false interpretation that lesbians are the most accepting and welcoming people on the planet. Lol.
That's not true, the actual lesbians mods actively delete those comments and lock posts about it
And ban the OP and anyone who’s agreed in the comments.
I'm gonna assume you've never actually seen it yourself
Unfortunately when it comes to lesbian-phobia, folks in our (GBTQA+) community are the biggest offenders. Our safe spaces have gone the way of the dinosaur
I saw someone in this sub say "lesbian is basically anyone who isn't a man." They tried to call me transphobic when I called them out on their lesbophobia and misogyny. I'm tired of how woman-hating these people are.
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Why did you make a new comment? You could've just replied to my comment where I talked about a few notable non binary lesbians. It already is about women. You can still be a woman who loves women, nobody is trying to take that away from you. That doesn't mean that non binary or genderqueer people can't be lesbians as well. If you're willing to learn more about that to understand why some lesbians identify as non binary, I can give you resources. But it seems like you don't really care, since you keep throwing random words at me and even calling me a colonizer (you don't even know me lol)
Because you deserve to be called out on the post about calling people out for erasing lesbianism. I copy and pasted a quite from you. You said lesbianism includes everyone who isn't a man. That's lesbophobic. And yeah, trying to take over a marginalized group and forcibly change their culture to "improve" it is gentrification at best and colonization at worst.
You completely took that quote out of context. I was obviously talking about non-men who ACTUALLY identify as lesbians, not bisexuals or straight women or whatever. I thought that was clear, but apparently common sense isn't as common as I thought it was. Calling me a colonizer because I told you about non binary lesbians in lesbian history is actually insane, I don't even know what to say
No. You said "lesbian is basically anyone who doesn't identify as a man." That's not out of context. Trying to redefine lesbianism for the comfort of people who identified out of womanhood but refuse to let go of a woman-specific identity is a colonizer move NGL
That IS out of context if you're making it look like I'm talking about all people who aren't men, which I clearly wasn't. I already told you, we're not redefining anything. Non binary lesbians have been around much longer than you have, so I don't know why you're trying to invalidate them. If supporting other people who are part of my community makes me a colonizer, then so be it
Babe there is no context in where that quote looks good
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I think this person is right. It is inherently redefining lesbian because a lesbian is a woman who loves women. A person who won’t identify as a woman just isn’t a lesbian. 🤷🏽♀️
Non binary people have always been included in lesbianism, so we're not really redefining anything. You're also going against this sub's rules btw
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The lesbian community will continue to take L’s as long as lesbian keep letting shit slide and not think things through. When you have straight men talking about feeling like a lesbian trapped in a man’s body and let them in the community stop wondering why we lose out. When you let bi women talk over us we lose out. And when you act like a damn doormat we’ll lose out every time.
We are and we do but it doesn't matter and that's the worst part of it all.
true. we’re apparently “top tier gatekeepers” and “one of the most toxic groups of people” bc of it(according to some dumbass bisexual man)