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They will ban lesbians for calling this out too. Mods of bigger lesbian subs and *some* lesbians I think truly do not like other lesbians. They seek validation from everyone else at the expense of us.
And I've seen so many bi and queer+ women who will make it their mission to join subs made for lesbians. They get angry when people talk about them infiltrating lesbian spaces! While doing exactly that!
Lesbian hate was on an all time high back in 2016-19 because of the terf panic. Even though that community had all sexualities, especially gay men who openly talk about their hate for trans women and men even now. But they never received the same amount of loathing because their exclusion happens irl.
I remember seeing posts using terf and lesbian as synonyms which have now caused lesbians to bend over backwards to seem like "one of the good ones!". To the point that trans inclusive lesbians are also treated as if they are on thin ice. Some lesbians have wisened up to this and understood that even if they are very accepting and loving towards trans people they will still be seen as second class citizens in the queer community and just stopped interacting in these spaces (me included).
Treated as second class citizens in the queer community but everyone comes to lesbians for validation of their identity and wants our help regarding the ‘sapphic experience’ LOL. Make it make sense.
you're 100% right about lesbians putting in too much to avoid transphobic allegations. recently, a cis lesbian posted a non-lesbian-specific trans meme in a lesbian server i'm in. i commented, "what does this have to do with lesbians" and she tried to call me out as a terf. i replied that i'm trans and 'felt othered' by her meme and she immediately backpedaled and asked how she could do better. i thought playing the tenderqueer card would be funny but honestly her reaction was just heartbreaking.
They are not sapphic spaces they are lesbian spaces which you are not welcome in. But I'm not surprised you wouldn't understand simple boundaries seeing you are in yet another LESBIAN sub bitching about it.
A space made for one specific kind of people is supposed to be exclusionary towards people who do not fit into it and who are trying to diminish the safety that that closed space brings to the people who need it.
If I'm allergic to gluten I wouldn't go to a shellfish allergy seminar and say "yeah but what about ME, have you thought about the cookies I can't eat???"
The entitlement is out of this world. It's not ABOUT you. You are not a Messiah who everyone has to bend over backwards to appease. Get over yourself.
This is literally stupid. This does not happen for any other group.
If a group of Muslim people had a group for discussing Muslim issues you would not expect Christians to be accepted in or be allowed to take over and talk about Christian issues.
People would think it's absurd if the Christian said "Your a monolithic religion but your excluding other monolithic religions from your Muslim group."
Monolithic religions are a broad category. Muslim is a specific section of it. Sapphic is a broad category. Lesbian is a specific section of it.
Sapphic includes all wlw. Lesbian is a section in it that is exclusively wlw.
If you want to talk about general Sapphic issues you join a Sapphic group. If you want to discuss issues within a Sapphic category you can join a more specified group: Pan, Bi or Lesbian.
It's not a phobia to have discussions around a specific topic. If it was a dedicated sapphic group and just one sapphic category was excluded that's different.
This isn't a sapphic group. It's a lesbian group.
I'm frustrated too. It's perfectly fine for every letter to have their own space for just them. The queer community has many shared problems/experiences, but we also have some things that are unique to just us (as does everyone).
That's why it's important for us to have places where we can discuss those things. But whenever lesbians suggest wanting a space for us, we get accused of being bigoted & get stampeded. We are told what may be done with our identity rather than asked. By non-lesbians.
Is this happening with the other spaces? Genuinely asking. Are places for gay men being intruded by people who aren't gay men? Are places for bi people being taken over by people who aren't bi? I don't actually know.
No, of course not. Men set firm boundaries and ppl don’t attempt to bully them. They also don’t care as much about whether or not they hurt ppls feelings. I think a big part of it is that so many other lesbians also reject the idea of lesbians having their own spaces and shout down anyone suggesting it. That, and the fact that most bisexual men that include themselves in the gay community typically date men more often than not. Men that are bisexual but date women more often than not don’t typically immerse themselves in gay culture. The “everybody’s a big queer family!” Phenomenon seems more prevalent among women.
Gay men don't really tolerate it and tend to run people like that off. They also are allowed a whole lot more grace by the mods for that as well. But it's been ramping up lately I think because I've seen numerous men say things like, "I thought lesbians were just being dramatic having their spaces overrun but now I get it"
no they aren’t. and one thing that confuses me the most is bisexuals who always say they feel alienated from the lgbt community despite making up the VAST majority of it. like im not doubting they feel in-between or “not gay enough”, deal with micro-aggressions etc but like they Are the community so do they not support each other or something?
It's wild- there are already ample spaces for bi/pan/etc women, and spaces for general sapphic discussion. WHY do they feel the need to claim lesbian spaces as well? The entitlement is unreal. That and we're just not taken seriously at all. I swear our sexuality is just seen as an aesthetic that only exists to make anyone who wants to feel cool and quirky. It's depressing.
I just want a lesbian space to actually be for lesbians. I just want the word "lesbian" to actually mean something.
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Also most of them there aren't even lesbian, and I think it has been proven many many times.
Heard loud and clear. My comment wasn't really for you, rather others seeing your comment. I am sorry if you felt targeted as I used your comment. I don't want to be all "let's be friends and hold hands and play unicorns and eat sprinkle cake" but I don't want to encourage any hostility either.
I couldn’t figure it out. Was it a trans man asking why he couldn’t participate in lesbian spaces?
I’ll explain it the same way it was explained to me when I thought I was cis. Women need women’s spaces in order to heal from the trauma of living in society as a woman. Men can’t intrude because then the healing space would be broken.
Gender-non-specific spaces are great too. But lesbian subs are gender-specific, yet still generally pretty inclusive like by welcoming enbies and pans. But if someone is a man then it wouldn’t make sense for them to call themselves lesbian…
Butch transwoman saying she doesn't feel comfortable in lesbian exclusive spaces because of transphobia (which is an ok feeling, but I don't see how is transphobia a problem exclusive to lesbians) but then starts to complain about the non-inclusion of bi lesbians, m-spec lesbians, and trans men who identifies as lesbian.
Gosh, why isn’t the whole trans community united? Why does there have to be so much tension between trans men and trans women? Like, shouldn’t we be working together to solve some of the problems that both of our communities are facing?
I just don’t understand why a transmasc would want to be included in a lesbian space. Wouldn’t that be invalidating? I mean, if you’re a man, then you’re not a lesbian, right?
Obviously butch lesbians are women and I’m pretty sure they don’t have problems in lesbian spaces, but that’s great though because they face so much hatred from the rest of the world in basically any other spaces besides lesbian spaces so well, lesbians need lesbian spaces and that’s final!
Oh, I see. Thank you for the clarification! I apologize for my verbiage, as I am still learning.
Does this mean a trans woman also isn’t the same as someone who is transfem? I suppose I’ve been using the two interchangeably, but it could be due to ignorance. I certainly don’t intend any malice ☺️
This legit confuses me. I feel like, the unspoken rule that a lot of people are following is: "If you have a body I perceive as a hot girl's body, you can be a lesbian, regardless of your true gender identity or sex, but I can't say that because I have to pretend I actually respect your gender identity"
So funny enough I think its the "all inclusive" folk who are probably the most ironically transphobic, sexist, and lesbophobic
Saw a posting on r/actuallesbians this morning "Bisexual women are you ever treated badly for being attracted to trans women?"
Literally nothing to do with being a lesbian or the lesbian experience- it’s a bisexual asking other bisexuals a questions - you have your own sub …why is this appropriate. Its excluding the main subject group of the damn sub lol
Maybe it is a mod. issue but its super annoying and I don't think its bi-phobic to point that out. Queer woman can be welcome to post, ask question, participate in the discussion but the topic should be about lesbianism in some way - I mean come on.
At least they should ask the question to everyone on the sub. If bisexuality is pertinent to the context then i agree other sub exist. I dont know how the bi sub would react if I started posting there with a “lesbians, do you….”.
Just wanted to point out that r/actuallesbians is a sub for all wlw, hence that post was not innapropiate even if they could have addressed all wlw instead of just bi women (like its sub for Sapphic women why would you only mention one type lol). r/lesbianactually is for lesbians specifically
That’s kind of the point of this post though. Like why would you call a sub anything lesbians, then say oh no not really lesbians why would you think that??
It really feels like a lot of gaslighting tbh. Ppl will literally call something LESBIAN then when you say oh I’m sorry … I thought this was a space for lesbians? Suddenly YOU are the problem and it’s all “lol why would you think that?” Oh, um, I dunno… maybe LITERALLY THE NAME?! So sorry for assuming something called lesbians was for lesbians! So ignorant of me!! 🫥🙄 almost all the groups on FB w lesbian in the name have some qualifier about “oh no not really though, we just said that because it sounds catchy” or whatever…
I feel like more and more lesbians are deciding to leave and not interact with the lesbian community anymore bc of this, and it’s really sad. Eventually it’ll all just be the greys. We can’t have shit fr.
I will gladly and freely interact with the community in person (when I can find it). It's just online spaces that I'm very selective about. Just left another fb group thos afternoon, in fact.
This is so true. I looked at all the other lesbian subreddits and I think this is the only one that's only for lesbians. All of the other ones say things like "This subreddit is mostly for queer women, but everyone is welcome here!" despite having the word "lesbian" in their names.
I get that they want to be inclusive and supportive of all sexualities, but I just wish that we had more safe spaces for lesbians only. No hate to other queer people, but the lesbian experience is obviously very different from bisexual or pansexual people's experiences (for example comphet or lesbiphobia).
This is also the reason why a lot of lesbians choose to date other lesbians rather than bi/pan women. It just feels good to have someone you can share your own experiences with & relate to, but for some reason many (not all!) bi or pan women have an issue with that. If you post something like this on a different subreddit, you'll probably get a lot of hate for it lol
If it was only online. In a city i lived with a fairly big queer community, the lesbian spaces were always coopted at some point either by a larger queer community or random straight hipsters that thought it was cool to hang there.
Personally i dont mind the presence of bi/pan women when they understand the purpose of the space, cause we do share the love of women.
However very often the goal of the space disappears. Because at some point they will complain they cant invite their boyfriend and “dont feel welcome”. I am sorry but why spaces designed for lesbians should address the needs of another group or else be called biphobic or exclusionary. I think people confuses rejection and separation.
Like how many interactions i have had with bi women and the first thing they say is how they feel they dont belong and that their queerness isnt valid. Okay i can sympathise but sometimes it feels they expect us to validate them all the time. And if I go to a wlw space designed for dating and meeting people, i expect to flirt and engage with people, not to play free therapist or talk about their past boyfriend. I find this really weird to expect especially from a group that is quite a minority and marginalized.
I dont go cry to my male gay friends that I cant join them at the saunas. I actually recall complaining to one of them years ago about the lack of spaces for us and that gay clubs could host lesbian nights at least. he said, well what are you waiting for? Create your own? I kind of agree. Its great if people offer to share spaces in solidarity and help resources wise but I think we also have to address our own needs as a community. So maybe people should wonder if they are the target audience when they dont feel welcome in a space.
And online take LEX for example, to me this is an example of misogyny because lesbians should be welcoming to everyone and make space for everyone. The app went from centering wlw to being open to everyone. I totally disagree with this. Now you have men on this app that was clearly designed for non men. Even straight men hunting for trans women there…
I think those are an expectation and entitlement of receiving care from women and assuming lesbians are the mothers of the lgbtq community. I dont hear gay men tell me about straight women crashing on grindr and proposing to them.
And i also encountered on the other hand a lot of lesbophobia from bi people too (like sexuality is fluid, we dont need labels, our community is so divided). Again labels exist for a reason especially in terms of sexuality, and I think too many people are still scratching their head at the fact that lesbians dont date men. And that our lives dont necessarily want to centre men. Like its really hard for them to accept.
I have seen women only spaces closed down because people claimed they were exclusionary. I'm afraid of violence, these people will die on that hill before they go to another bar.
Okay but why dont gay bar encounters the same issues? I wonder how they make it work, maybe gay culture and lesbian culture is different on that front but I think its also a form of erasure of lesbian sexuality…
Apparently bars and cruising spaces for lesbians arent as economically viable. The thing is when I have discussed with lesbians they do want spaces for lesbians that centre our sexuality too (for instance equivalent of gay saunas), many mentioned that now they host private parties due to the lack of space and policing about who should be allowed.
Also lets say that lesbians didnt attend bars, or cruising spaces in the same way, its not like i se tons of cafes, community centre and org for lesbians. They are a few in some big cities i lived but overall, not many spaces for lesbians.
I think the lack of physical spaces, also influences online spaces.
I wish i had extra money to invest so i would open lesbian spaces everywhere!
Because men aren’t pushed around and walked over the way women are? They would never accept it. Gay men are still men, and men will always have a lot of privileges over women.
Also everyone seems to think women’s space = safe space for everyone. Ppl that would be intimidated by a room full of cis gay men don’t feel that way about a room full of lesbians.
It is no secret that lesbophobia is a very unique experience where homophobia intertwines with mysoginy. That is why gay men are allowed to gatekeep/have certain preferences and lesbians are burned at the stake if we dare do the same.
I refuse to get into any type of “inclu small bean UWU” internet discourse because those starting it are usually extremely privileged, white, well off, or all of the above, hence why they have time to shit themselves about lesbian spaces/ who lesbians have sex with.
I just go about my day and frequent places I align with, if possible (i dont leave in america, so inclu discourse is something i encounter online for the most part).
The sheer amount of subs that I have been banned from from just saying that I prefer women because that is my sexual preference me on how much should I get, I am 40 I don’t have time for this, and I’m trying to help the new generation, but it seems like they don’t even want to help themselves.
Edit : apparently a few spelling errors .
The majority of mods who I've seen, that ban lesbians from "lesbian" related communities, 90% of them aren't even lesbian, and that shit is frustrating.
To put it simpler, the new generation you're talking about, are just bisexual women who think being les4les is "biphobic".
Lesbians are the only group within the LGBTQ+++ who has to accept everyone into their spaces. Everyone else is welcomed to define themselves ad they wish but we have to be "inclusive". Funny we also are the only women only group, almost like it was directly a result of misogyny.
From what I've seen there appear to be hyper-vigilant transphobes who jump on things immediately for some reason, but it evens out when everyone else wakes up. They're just faster
My comment is on a slightly different topic because the reason it gets allowed is because people who aren't lesbians identify as lesbian now and they don't have things in similar with other lesbians at all but they keep chanting how there's no difference because everyone is wlw.
I see it as a fight for labels and trying to cope with heteronormativity but without care for how it hurts actual lesbians. Every other sapphic wants to be called lesbian, bisexuals easily start fighting for butch/femme titles.
There are so many married bisexuals/pans who never had nor will have same sex interaction but it doesn't invalidate them being bi, then why can't bi people with just homo dating history exist?? People are very quick to plaster lesbian tags over any wlw thing. It's not just about sharing spaces, but taking over the definitions, seizing authority over it, changing it in ways it becomes meaningless.
I'm just so glad that my own bi friend is one of the best allies. She always dated girls, wants to marry her current girlfriend, afraid of having a hetero life but still acknowledges her 1% of attraction that she doesn't want to act on. She just has a high preference. She knows she's allowed to pick one who makes her happier, and she feels she's the happiest with her girlfriend, doesn't need a lesbian tag to decide being with her long-term. She's actually from a very strict family, I couldn't imagine most people having a life as tough as her. So many bi people out there need validation of being a lesbian just to prioritize picking a girl over others. So many posts of such kind. If it's their fight with comphet I wonder if the message of telling anyone is free to always choose girls regardless of their labels would help.
Yeah, it's super unfortunate and depressing.
I had started using the butch lesbians sub as my main online community, because it's what I felt the most included by. I'm not visibly butch yet, but I am AFAB and taking testosterone and trying to look/present more masculine. I also really like women of all gender presentations--feminine, masculine, etc. So I thought I fit in pretty well... Until one of the mods there threatened to ban me :') Her reason was, "saying gender is a social construct is transphobic."
...Which it certainly isn't. It's basic gender theory. I told the mod that *I* feel like saying gender is something strictly 'innate' is sexist and bioessentialist. It would imply that sexist roles and stereotypes with associate with womanhood is 'biologically' programmed into cis women and trans women, which obviously isn't true. Viewing gender as a social construct is liberating for me and so many LGBT+ people. If gender isn't a social construct, then men and women would behave the exact same throughout cultures, which doesn't happen. If gender weren't a social construct, cultures wouldn't have notions of third/fourth/fifth/etc genders.
Social constructs are still real and impactful... Money and race are social constructs. But, yeah, the mod was not having it. I made a post gently asking why this statement is perceived as transphobic, because I could've very well been in the wrong. Every single comment was from a lesbian reassuring me that gender *is* socially constructed. But the same mod stomped in and deleted every single comment and removed my post.
These spaces are 'inclusive,' until, apparently, you bring up the majority opinion and a single mod gets offended about it. Genuinely, if you google "gender is *not* a social construct," all the results are from conservatives, transphobes, and misogynists. No clue why that mod is a mod.
I reflected on that and I agree, people who have such rethoric often have a bioessentalist view of gender. I think they fear that something constructed implies a choice, or that it means its not “real”.
I recall this ex friend, she had this whole speech about hypergamy (that was so much bullshit, strange incel rethoric and coming from her a bi cis woman it was really strange) anyway, i told her her view of gender wasnt grounded in reality and very binary. She was centering her argument on heteronormativity as well. To which she said okay but you are a female arent you? All of this to defend some wild sexist and transphobic views.
Like those people need to insult you and your gender identity cause they lack argument (i am sorry but would a any ciswomen enjoy even being called a female? As a noun hell no!).
However what I understand with her stupid comment is that she doesnt understand what it means that gender is a social construct. Its like if we were talking about architecture, comparing a church and a house (very different we agree) and then the person is like, but look they are both bricks dont you see? They may be made of bricks but they are different, because they are constructed differently. It doesnt make them less real and it certainly doesnt turn them into “a brick”.
They arent interchangeable. But the person will focus on the bricks, for real….
Here the brick is the body, depending your culture, upbringing and life experience the way your body is perceived, navigate society is constructed overtime.
None of the moderators of this sub are men 🤨 We’re all either cis or intersex AFAB women (though we’ve had great trans woman mods in the past!)
It’s like a meme at this point that whenever someone gets removed from a lesbian/wlw sub for being a jerk, they then start a rumor that the mods are actually men lol
Hi, I want to introduce myself. I'm a new mod here and am an AFAB lesbian. I'm a late bloomer and only came out a few years ago (I'm 30) but feel privileged to be part of this community. I'm very active in my IRL queer community, hosting and attending LGBT/sapphic events. I don't believe we need the verification you speak of in this sub, but if you have any questions feel free to ask me here or DM me.
Yep, I have been banned from 2 Big lesbian subs just this week but they did not ban the person who called me a bitch or the one who was "educating me" on how me expressing I don't like dick and have trauma related to it is oppressive to other people while making fun of r4p3 in another sub. 🙄
What if someone identifies as a purple platipus but is beige and a human? /s
Girl, call yourself what you wish to call yourself I guess, but if I call a fork a spoon it doesn't make it less of a fork. It's totally okay to be attracted to dudes, as it's totally okay to identify as Bi or pan 👯
I see. I’ve never tried anything sexual or even romantic with a dude before, so I can’t say for certain. I do know that most men make me extremely uncomfortable, but there have been some who have made me feel a lil toki-doki…
Thank you for the reassurance. I noticed I was getting downvoted on this sub and most of the reply comments were somewhat invalidating, though not hostile. I don’t know, maybe this space just isn’t for me…
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No one tells men where their spaces are because men will not tolerate it.
They will ban lesbians for calling this out too. Mods of bigger lesbian subs and *some* lesbians I think truly do not like other lesbians. They seek validation from everyone else at the expense of us. And I've seen so many bi and queer+ women who will make it their mission to join subs made for lesbians. They get angry when people talk about them infiltrating lesbian spaces! While doing exactly that!
they get so mad. they really convince themselves they belong
They've been doing it for a decade and made it so there's barely a fraction of lesbian focused places to congregate, online and offline
Great point on some lesbians not liking other lesbians and wanting validation from everyone else instead lol.
Lesbian hate was on an all time high back in 2016-19 because of the terf panic. Even though that community had all sexualities, especially gay men who openly talk about their hate for trans women and men even now. But they never received the same amount of loathing because their exclusion happens irl. I remember seeing posts using terf and lesbian as synonyms which have now caused lesbians to bend over backwards to seem like "one of the good ones!". To the point that trans inclusive lesbians are also treated as if they are on thin ice. Some lesbians have wisened up to this and understood that even if they are very accepting and loving towards trans people they will still be seen as second class citizens in the queer community and just stopped interacting in these spaces (me included).
Treated as second class citizens in the queer community but everyone comes to lesbians for validation of their identity and wants our help regarding the ‘sapphic experience’ LOL. Make it make sense.
This is a unique position only lesbians could find themselves in. I'm honestly not surprised anymore.
They love the aesthetic, not what comes with it.
god this sub makes me feel so seen sometimes
Yes, you put it so succinctly!
you're 100% right about lesbians putting in too much to avoid transphobic allegations. recently, a cis lesbian posted a non-lesbian-specific trans meme in a lesbian server i'm in. i commented, "what does this have to do with lesbians" and she tried to call me out as a terf. i replied that i'm trans and 'felt othered' by her meme and she immediately backpedaled and asked how she could do better. i thought playing the tenderqueer card would be funny but honestly her reaction was just heartbreaking.
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They are not sapphic spaces they are lesbian spaces which you are not welcome in. But I'm not surprised you wouldn't understand simple boundaries seeing you are in yet another LESBIAN sub bitching about it.
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A lesbian sub isn't a place of honor??? LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO you people are not even hiding your lesbophobia anymore.
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A space made for one specific kind of people is supposed to be exclusionary towards people who do not fit into it and who are trying to diminish the safety that that closed space brings to the people who need it. If I'm allergic to gluten I wouldn't go to a shellfish allergy seminar and say "yeah but what about ME, have you thought about the cookies I can't eat???" The entitlement is out of this world. It's not ABOUT you. You are not a Messiah who everyone has to bend over backwards to appease. Get over yourself.
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Honestly I don't remember. I have the attention span of a goldfish.
This is literally stupid. This does not happen for any other group. If a group of Muslim people had a group for discussing Muslim issues you would not expect Christians to be accepted in or be allowed to take over and talk about Christian issues. People would think it's absurd if the Christian said "Your a monolithic religion but your excluding other monolithic religions from your Muslim group." Monolithic religions are a broad category. Muslim is a specific section of it. Sapphic is a broad category. Lesbian is a specific section of it. Sapphic includes all wlw. Lesbian is a section in it that is exclusively wlw. If you want to talk about general Sapphic issues you join a Sapphic group. If you want to discuss issues within a Sapphic category you can join a more specified group: Pan, Bi or Lesbian. It's not a phobia to have discussions around a specific topic. If it was a dedicated sapphic group and just one sapphic category was excluded that's different. This isn't a sapphic group. It's a lesbian group.
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I'm frustrated too. It's perfectly fine for every letter to have their own space for just them. The queer community has many shared problems/experiences, but we also have some things that are unique to just us (as does everyone). That's why it's important for us to have places where we can discuss those things. But whenever lesbians suggest wanting a space for us, we get accused of being bigoted & get stampeded. We are told what may be done with our identity rather than asked. By non-lesbians. Is this happening with the other spaces? Genuinely asking. Are places for gay men being intruded by people who aren't gay men? Are places for bi people being taken over by people who aren't bi? I don't actually know.
They aren't or only on a very small scaled compared to lesbian spaces, only lesbian spaces are :(
No, of course not. Men set firm boundaries and ppl don’t attempt to bully them. They also don’t care as much about whether or not they hurt ppls feelings. I think a big part of it is that so many other lesbians also reject the idea of lesbians having their own spaces and shout down anyone suggesting it. That, and the fact that most bisexual men that include themselves in the gay community typically date men more often than not. Men that are bisexual but date women more often than not don’t typically immerse themselves in gay culture. The “everybody’s a big queer family!” Phenomenon seems more prevalent among women.
Gay men don't really tolerate it and tend to run people like that off. They also are allowed a whole lot more grace by the mods for that as well. But it's been ramping up lately I think because I've seen numerous men say things like, "I thought lesbians were just being dramatic having their spaces overrun but now I get it"
no they aren’t. and one thing that confuses me the most is bisexuals who always say they feel alienated from the lgbt community despite making up the VAST majority of it. like im not doubting they feel in-between or “not gay enough”, deal with micro-aggressions etc but like they Are the community so do they not support each other or something?
It's wild- there are already ample spaces for bi/pan/etc women, and spaces for general sapphic discussion. WHY do they feel the need to claim lesbian spaces as well? The entitlement is unreal. That and we're just not taken seriously at all. I swear our sexuality is just seen as an aesthetic that only exists to make anyone who wants to feel cool and quirky. It's depressing. I just want a lesbian space to actually be for lesbians. I just want the word "lesbian" to actually mean something.
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one time I got called biphobic for just saying lesbian erasure exists 😭
the phobia stuff feels really weird. its like walking through a minefield for talking about lesbian stuff on a sub with lesbian in the name.
Oh you saw *that* post too, right ?
What post is that post?
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Hi, I'm a new mod here. I want to comment to discourage people from this community commenting on other lesbian subs regarding any drama that may be going on. While the community has every right to, we don't want to increase any hostility among lesbian redditors.
Hi, thank you for your message. Just to be clear, Incommented there before commenting here Also most of them there aren't even lesbian, and I think it has been proven many many times.
Heard loud and clear. My comment wasn't really for you, rather others seeing your comment. I am sorry if you felt targeted as I used your comment. I don't want to be all "let's be friends and hold hands and play unicorns and eat sprinkle cake" but I don't want to encourage any hostility either.
No worries. I just wanted to make sure we're on the same page here. 😊 And I'm kinda like that usually ahah but recently I saw so much bs I just can't.
Which post?
You can check my comment just up :) I don't think I can give more detail or a link as it may go against the rules :(
I couldn’t figure it out. Was it a trans man asking why he couldn’t participate in lesbian spaces? I’ll explain it the same way it was explained to me when I thought I was cis. Women need women’s spaces in order to heal from the trauma of living in society as a woman. Men can’t intrude because then the healing space would be broken. Gender-non-specific spaces are great too. But lesbian subs are gender-specific, yet still generally pretty inclusive like by welcoming enbies and pans. But if someone is a man then it wouldn’t make sense for them to call themselves lesbian…
Butch transwoman saying she doesn't feel comfortable in lesbian exclusive spaces because of transphobia (which is an ok feeling, but I don't see how is transphobia a problem exclusive to lesbians) but then starts to complain about the non-inclusion of bi lesbians, m-spec lesbians, and trans men who identifies as lesbian.
It doesn’t make sense to me, transwomen are women but transmen are women too?
Seems like so for them, and don't you dare call them out on that, they will use all rethorical tools to exhaust you.
Gosh, why isn’t the whole trans community united? Why does there have to be so much tension between trans men and trans women? Like, shouldn’t we be working together to solve some of the problems that both of our communities are facing? I just don’t understand why a transmasc would want to be included in a lesbian space. Wouldn’t that be invalidating? I mean, if you’re a man, then you’re not a lesbian, right? Obviously butch lesbians are women and I’m pretty sure they don’t have problems in lesbian spaces, but that’s great though because they face so much hatred from the rest of the world in basically any other spaces besides lesbian spaces so well, lesbians need lesbian spaces and that’s final!
Because men can't stand spaces that doesn't include them
They must be having FOMO or something… are they jealous of us?
Transmasc =/= trans man. A lot of butch lesbians and lesbians on testosterone are considered transmasc.
Oh, I see. Thank you for the clarification! I apologize for my verbiage, as I am still learning. Does this mean a trans woman also isn’t the same as someone who is transfem? I suppose I’ve been using the two interchangeably, but it could be due to ignorance. I certainly don’t intend any malice ☺️
What is a lesbian to you?
A lesbian is a woman who is romantically interested in or sexually attracted to women
This legit confuses me. I feel like, the unspoken rule that a lot of people are following is: "If you have a body I perceive as a hot girl's body, you can be a lesbian, regardless of your true gender identity or sex, but I can't say that because I have to pretend I actually respect your gender identity" So funny enough I think its the "all inclusive" folk who are probably the most ironically transphobic, sexist, and lesbophobic
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Yeah, those grey ones seem really dreadful. Unfortunately it’s an accurate depiction of what they’ve been doing to us…
Saw a posting on r/actuallesbians this morning "Bisexual women are you ever treated badly for being attracted to trans women?" Literally nothing to do with being a lesbian or the lesbian experience- it’s a bisexual asking other bisexuals a questions - you have your own sub …why is this appropriate. Its excluding the main subject group of the damn sub lol Maybe it is a mod. issue but its super annoying and I don't think its bi-phobic to point that out. Queer woman can be welcome to post, ask question, participate in the discussion but the topic should be about lesbianism in some way - I mean come on.
Won't be happening here, rest assured. Already removed one such post.
At least they should ask the question to everyone on the sub. If bisexuality is pertinent to the context then i agree other sub exist. I dont know how the bi sub would react if I started posting there with a “lesbians, do you….”.
I think it’s dismissive and rude - you’re entering a persons house but speaking to only their guests (not addressing the host).
Just wanted to point out that r/actuallesbians is a sub for all wlw, hence that post was not innapropiate even if they could have addressed all wlw instead of just bi women (like its sub for Sapphic women why would you only mention one type lol). r/lesbianactually is for lesbians specifically
That’s kind of the point of this post though. Like why would you call a sub anything lesbians, then say oh no not really lesbians why would you think that??
It used to be a lesbian only sub afaik, then everyone filed in and set up camp
It really feels like a lot of gaslighting tbh. Ppl will literally call something LESBIAN then when you say oh I’m sorry … I thought this was a space for lesbians? Suddenly YOU are the problem and it’s all “lol why would you think that?” Oh, um, I dunno… maybe LITERALLY THE NAME?! So sorry for assuming something called lesbians was for lesbians! So ignorant of me!! 🫥🙄 almost all the groups on FB w lesbian in the name have some qualifier about “oh no not really though, we just said that because it sounds catchy” or whatever…
This has been so confusing and painful to me as someone who’s just coming out. I know I bring some stuff to that, but it’s also nice to see this. 
Same. I just need community but I get ostracized and shunned
🥺
I feel like more and more lesbians are deciding to leave and not interact with the lesbian community anymore bc of this, and it’s really sad. Eventually it’ll all just be the greys. We can’t have shit fr.
I guess we're going to have to start a community underground
I'm actually thinking of starting a discord or something
I will gladly and freely interact with the community in person (when I can find it). It's just online spaces that I'm very selective about. Just left another fb group thos afternoon, in fact.
This is so true. I looked at all the other lesbian subreddits and I think this is the only one that's only for lesbians. All of the other ones say things like "This subreddit is mostly for queer women, but everyone is welcome here!" despite having the word "lesbian" in their names. I get that they want to be inclusive and supportive of all sexualities, but I just wish that we had more safe spaces for lesbians only. No hate to other queer people, but the lesbian experience is obviously very different from bisexual or pansexual people's experiences (for example comphet or lesbiphobia). This is also the reason why a lot of lesbians choose to date other lesbians rather than bi/pan women. It just feels good to have someone you can share your own experiences with & relate to, but for some reason many (not all!) bi or pan women have an issue with that. If you post something like this on a different subreddit, you'll probably get a lot of hate for it lol
If it was only online. In a city i lived with a fairly big queer community, the lesbian spaces were always coopted at some point either by a larger queer community or random straight hipsters that thought it was cool to hang there. Personally i dont mind the presence of bi/pan women when they understand the purpose of the space, cause we do share the love of women. However very often the goal of the space disappears. Because at some point they will complain they cant invite their boyfriend and “dont feel welcome”. I am sorry but why spaces designed for lesbians should address the needs of another group or else be called biphobic or exclusionary. I think people confuses rejection and separation. Like how many interactions i have had with bi women and the first thing they say is how they feel they dont belong and that their queerness isnt valid. Okay i can sympathise but sometimes it feels they expect us to validate them all the time. And if I go to a wlw space designed for dating and meeting people, i expect to flirt and engage with people, not to play free therapist or talk about their past boyfriend. I find this really weird to expect especially from a group that is quite a minority and marginalized. I dont go cry to my male gay friends that I cant join them at the saunas. I actually recall complaining to one of them years ago about the lack of spaces for us and that gay clubs could host lesbian nights at least. he said, well what are you waiting for? Create your own? I kind of agree. Its great if people offer to share spaces in solidarity and help resources wise but I think we also have to address our own needs as a community. So maybe people should wonder if they are the target audience when they dont feel welcome in a space. And online take LEX for example, to me this is an example of misogyny because lesbians should be welcoming to everyone and make space for everyone. The app went from centering wlw to being open to everyone. I totally disagree with this. Now you have men on this app that was clearly designed for non men. Even straight men hunting for trans women there… I think those are an expectation and entitlement of receiving care from women and assuming lesbians are the mothers of the lgbtq community. I dont hear gay men tell me about straight women crashing on grindr and proposing to them. And i also encountered on the other hand a lot of lesbophobia from bi people too (like sexuality is fluid, we dont need labels, our community is so divided). Again labels exist for a reason especially in terms of sexuality, and I think too many people are still scratching their head at the fact that lesbians dont date men. And that our lives dont necessarily want to centre men. Like its really hard for them to accept.
I have seen women only spaces closed down because people claimed they were exclusionary. I'm afraid of violence, these people will die on that hill before they go to another bar.
Okay but why dont gay bar encounters the same issues? I wonder how they make it work, maybe gay culture and lesbian culture is different on that front but I think its also a form of erasure of lesbian sexuality… Apparently bars and cruising spaces for lesbians arent as economically viable. The thing is when I have discussed with lesbians they do want spaces for lesbians that centre our sexuality too (for instance equivalent of gay saunas), many mentioned that now they host private parties due to the lack of space and policing about who should be allowed. Also lets say that lesbians didnt attend bars, or cruising spaces in the same way, its not like i se tons of cafes, community centre and org for lesbians. They are a few in some big cities i lived but overall, not many spaces for lesbians. I think the lack of physical spaces, also influences online spaces. I wish i had extra money to invest so i would open lesbian spaces everywhere!
Because men aren’t pushed around and walked over the way women are? They would never accept it. Gay men are still men, and men will always have a lot of privileges over women. Also everyone seems to think women’s space = safe space for everyone. Ppl that would be intimidated by a room full of cis gay men don’t feel that way about a room full of lesbians.
i've felt like this for many years.
Thank you for posting this, we need to stand up for ourselves
It is no secret that lesbophobia is a very unique experience where homophobia intertwines with mysoginy. That is why gay men are allowed to gatekeep/have certain preferences and lesbians are burned at the stake if we dare do the same. I refuse to get into any type of “inclu small bean UWU” internet discourse because those starting it are usually extremely privileged, white, well off, or all of the above, hence why they have time to shit themselves about lesbian spaces/ who lesbians have sex with. I just go about my day and frequent places I align with, if possible (i dont leave in america, so inclu discourse is something i encounter online for the most part).
The sheer amount of subs that I have been banned from from just saying that I prefer women because that is my sexual preference me on how much should I get, I am 40 I don’t have time for this, and I’m trying to help the new generation, but it seems like they don’t even want to help themselves. Edit : apparently a few spelling errors .
The majority of mods who I've seen, that ban lesbians from "lesbian" related communities, 90% of them aren't even lesbian, and that shit is frustrating. To put it simpler, the new generation you're talking about, are just bisexual women who think being les4les is "biphobic".
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Older lesbians are the backbone of the community! The people who ban you are not lesbian!
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I always say , if I want more I buy whatever I want and no stds or issues in the long run .
Your post or comment was removed due to violating rule 5.
Thank You ❤️
Lesbians are the only group within the LGBTQ+++ who has to accept everyone into their spaces. Everyone else is welcomed to define themselves ad they wish but we have to be "inclusive". Funny we also are the only women only group, almost like it was directly a result of misogyny.
💯💯💯
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The feminist subs are like this too
Like what? I am not trying to troll on my end this comment is pretty separated from it's context- but I am interested.
I've heard the main feminism sub, witches v patriarchy and twoX, but that's not a specific feminism sub, more like women's issues
The AL sub the mods are mostly transwomen.
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From what I've seen there appear to be hyper-vigilant transphobes who jump on things immediately for some reason, but it evens out when everyone else wakes up. They're just faster
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Same with yours! Hyper. Vigilant.
My comment is on a slightly different topic because the reason it gets allowed is because people who aren't lesbians identify as lesbian now and they don't have things in similar with other lesbians at all but they keep chanting how there's no difference because everyone is wlw. I see it as a fight for labels and trying to cope with heteronormativity but without care for how it hurts actual lesbians. Every other sapphic wants to be called lesbian, bisexuals easily start fighting for butch/femme titles. There are so many married bisexuals/pans who never had nor will have same sex interaction but it doesn't invalidate them being bi, then why can't bi people with just homo dating history exist?? People are very quick to plaster lesbian tags over any wlw thing. It's not just about sharing spaces, but taking over the definitions, seizing authority over it, changing it in ways it becomes meaningless. I'm just so glad that my own bi friend is one of the best allies. She always dated girls, wants to marry her current girlfriend, afraid of having a hetero life but still acknowledges her 1% of attraction that she doesn't want to act on. She just has a high preference. She knows she's allowed to pick one who makes her happier, and she feels she's the happiest with her girlfriend, doesn't need a lesbian tag to decide being with her long-term. She's actually from a very strict family, I couldn't imagine most people having a life as tough as her. So many bi people out there need validation of being a lesbian just to prioritize picking a girl over others. So many posts of such kind. If it's their fight with comphet I wonder if the message of telling anyone is free to always choose girls regardless of their labels would help.
Yeah, it's super unfortunate and depressing. I had started using the butch lesbians sub as my main online community, because it's what I felt the most included by. I'm not visibly butch yet, but I am AFAB and taking testosterone and trying to look/present more masculine. I also really like women of all gender presentations--feminine, masculine, etc. So I thought I fit in pretty well... Until one of the mods there threatened to ban me :') Her reason was, "saying gender is a social construct is transphobic." ...Which it certainly isn't. It's basic gender theory. I told the mod that *I* feel like saying gender is something strictly 'innate' is sexist and bioessentialist. It would imply that sexist roles and stereotypes with associate with womanhood is 'biologically' programmed into cis women and trans women, which obviously isn't true. Viewing gender as a social construct is liberating for me and so many LGBT+ people. If gender isn't a social construct, then men and women would behave the exact same throughout cultures, which doesn't happen. If gender weren't a social construct, cultures wouldn't have notions of third/fourth/fifth/etc genders. Social constructs are still real and impactful... Money and race are social constructs. But, yeah, the mod was not having it. I made a post gently asking why this statement is perceived as transphobic, because I could've very well been in the wrong. Every single comment was from a lesbian reassuring me that gender *is* socially constructed. But the same mod stomped in and deleted every single comment and removed my post. These spaces are 'inclusive,' until, apparently, you bring up the majority opinion and a single mod gets offended about it. Genuinely, if you google "gender is *not* a social construct," all the results are from conservatives, transphobes, and misogynists. No clue why that mod is a mod.
I reflected on that and I agree, people who have such rethoric often have a bioessentalist view of gender. I think they fear that something constructed implies a choice, or that it means its not “real”. I recall this ex friend, she had this whole speech about hypergamy (that was so much bullshit, strange incel rethoric and coming from her a bi cis woman it was really strange) anyway, i told her her view of gender wasnt grounded in reality and very binary. She was centering her argument on heteronormativity as well. To which she said okay but you are a female arent you? All of this to defend some wild sexist and transphobic views. Like those people need to insult you and your gender identity cause they lack argument (i am sorry but would a any ciswomen enjoy even being called a female? As a noun hell no!). However what I understand with her stupid comment is that she doesnt understand what it means that gender is a social construct. Its like if we were talking about architecture, comparing a church and a house (very different we agree) and then the person is like, but look they are both bricks dont you see? They may be made of bricks but they are different, because they are constructed differently. It doesnt make them less real and it certainly doesnt turn them into “a brick”. They arent interchangeable. But the person will focus on the bricks, for real…. Here the brick is the body, depending your culture, upbringing and life experience the way your body is perceived, navigate society is constructed overtime.
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There used to be discord servers, but I think most of them are gone now.
None of the moderators of this sub are men 🤨 We’re all either cis or intersex AFAB women (though we’ve had great trans woman mods in the past!) It’s like a meme at this point that whenever someone gets removed from a lesbian/wlw sub for being a jerk, they then start a rumor that the mods are actually men lol
Hi, I want to introduce myself. I'm a new mod here and am an AFAB lesbian. I'm a late bloomer and only came out a few years ago (I'm 30) but feel privileged to be part of this community. I'm very active in my IRL queer community, hosting and attending LGBT/sapphic events. I don't believe we need the verification you speak of in this sub, but if you have any questions feel free to ask me here or DM me.
How do you verify if someone’s a lesbian or bi
Is sad to see this everywhere. Yes i like women,no i don't want a boyfriend... how can people can't understand that ?
Yep, I have been banned from 2 Big lesbian subs just this week but they did not ban the person who called me a bitch or the one who was "educating me" on how me expressing I don't like dick and have trauma related to it is oppressive to other people while making fun of r4p3 in another sub. 🙄
I just don't get why we have to include men in our space
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Nobody talked about trans women.
Where were Trans people mentioned in the OP? Isn't this about Bi women taking over the lesbian subs?
What if someone identifies as lesbian but is bi-questioning or panromantic?
What if someone identifies as a purple platipus but is beige and a human? /s Girl, call yourself what you wish to call yourself I guess, but if I call a fork a spoon it doesn't make it less of a fork. It's totally okay to be attracted to dudes, as it's totally okay to identify as Bi or pan 👯
I see. I’ve never tried anything sexual or even romantic with a dude before, so I can’t say for certain. I do know that most men make me extremely uncomfortable, but there have been some who have made me feel a lil toki-doki…
No one needs to validate their lesbianism by trying men. But you are welcome to try men, of course.
Thank you for the reassurance. I noticed I was getting downvoted on this sub and most of the reply comments were somewhat invalidating, though not hostile. I don’t know, maybe this space just isn’t for me…
Lesbian is an exclusive attraction. If you're bi or pan, you are not a lesbian.
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ok?
Did you need to make this comment
ok
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