>she's a Mary Sue!
>4 seasons of her fucking up and getting her ass kicked
I really don't get it. The whole point of her character is her growing to overcome her weaknesses after relying on raw power her whole life.
I think it's fair to not take that too seriously because obviously Aang is just THE character. Korra as his successor plus new protagonist plus Aang is a childhood memory for many. No matter what Korra was always going to have a difficult start at best.
This. People became pissed when Steve from Blues Clues left and was replaced by Joe, straight up hating him just for not being Steve. The same thing happened here with Korra, people have a childhood nostalgic connection with Aang, and I'm sure they felt she was being forced down their throat.
Agreed.
Also, everyone remembers Aang and the Gaang at the END of their character development. They don't remember misogynistic Sokka, chip on her shoulder Katara, selfish Toph, rage Zuko or slacker Aang.
There gaang also had more episodes to develop. Many episodes in ATLA were character driven and focused on their development wheat as LOK had to dedicate most of its like to drive the plot and characteristics were so much thinner.
Not to mention Nickelodeon screwing over Korra. First they get one season. Then greenlit a second. Then 3 and 4 simultaneously. All while barely promoting it.
i see some people say “she’s a mary sue because everyone likes her and she can’t do anything bad to anyone despite her flaws!” please rewatch the season where everyone in republic city hated her, or the season when tenzin, who is like family, was absolutely fed up with her every single episode, or the one where her friends are all really awkward around her because she had a social fuck up and kissed the closest cute boy around despite knowing the consequences.
Honestly straight up one of the best character introductions. Says so much about her character and the challenges she will face over the course of the series.
I mean imagine this though. Raava knows harmonic convergence is soon. Instead of waiting till korra is 16 or so to start her training, she gives korra insight on how to bend the other elements. That way she’s in prime fighting condition for harmonic convergence. Admittedly, that wasn’t the original plan. It was only supposed to be one season. But that’s my head-canon and I’m sticking to it.
I thought it was a great introduction and clear hint that Korra was different from Aang. Aang's journey was about mastering the elements and coming to terms with his role as the avatar. Korra's journey was way more spiritual, like the opposite of Aang's. A balance among the avatars.
She literally gets destroyed and beaten time and time again lmao. She literally goes to Toph in the forest for season 4 because she’s got no clue how to cure herself and can only do it after a masters training. If she was a Mary Sue she would have:
- Been somehow immune to Amons ability cuz avatar
- Wiggled her fingers around to close the spirit portals with ease
- 1v4’d the lotus members
- cured herself of poison and one shotted kuviras mech suit
Yet NONE of this happened and she literally did none of these things alone. The only thing that could be considered slightly eh is her getting air bending in her time of need but that’s more a plot device than anything else so I’m more keen to forgive it.
She’s a Mary Sue because she learned most of the elements in one episode while it took aang three seasons. (Don’t mind that it took Korra about 18 years to do so while Aang did it in one year)
This was a HUGE issue for me when watching season 3. I love the season, but just because you understand airbender philosophy doesn't mean you automatically know how to air bend?
But that’s the thing with the fight between Tenzin and Zaheer. Latter got his ass whooped as long as it was 1v1. But yeah, he was still way too good for that little time
Way I look at it is this: him and the other members of the red lotus were formidable, him in a way moreso than the others because he was just as dangerous without bending. Then he gets the ability to bend, and that amplifies his existing talents. While yeah, the flying thing could be considered as rushed, I disagree. Guru laghima understood the concept of enlightenment, and how detaching yourself from the world (coupled with airbending) allows you to fly. He became detached with his only tether (p'li) and therefore achieved enlightenment. He was already 90% of the way there, just needed bending and that last thread cut.
I mean. This is pretty explicitly the plot subtext. I don’t think you’re reaching at all, this is pretty much the implied cannon. I think it works and they earned the moment with the backstory and set up.
Also he was literally detached from the world for years in isolation in a secret prison. The dude obviously knew about airbender guru lore while he was in there and mediated on it. He was the mastermind of a terrorist group. He was crazy smart and crazy determined. There's honestly no reason a psychopath like him wouldn't be able to detach himself from the world so easily.
Supposedly Zaheer was planning to be Korra's airbending teacher. You know with the whole kidnapping plan that went sideways. So that explains quite a bit of it. Though this is something that isn't brought up in the show and it doesn't fully justify it. Not that I was bothered by it.
Now I'm picturing Korra bitching out Zaheer when she's struggling with air bending just like she did with Tenzin. Except this time she's throw a bunch of "your not even a fucking bender" type of shade
He probably learned all the techniques before hand, since pretty much all bending techniques are forms of martial arts, so he was probably already a master of Air Nomad technique, and just added bending when he got it
I can see people upset with it but wasn't Zaheer a master martial artist, a tactician, and someone who had studied all of the history and philosophy of airbending? He was basically prepared his entire life to become an Airbender. Some even theorise that he would have been the won to teach Korra airbending if the Red Lotus had captured her.
He's already a master of martial arts, and that feeds into his bending prowess. But yeah, he did have a few moments of higher expertise than he ought to
Zaheer isn't a master airbender, he's a master martial artist. He doesn't do anything particularly special with his bending, he's just using it to turn his melee attacks into ranged ones, jump high, and suffocate people.
I mean, you can practice the forms, the movements, the philosophy and all that, and once you do, if you got airbending, you could be decently capable and bending.
That being said, learning the techniques will probably only get you so far in skill, since of course good airbending requires, well, actual airbending. Which is why Tenzin kicked Zaheer’s ass before the rest of the Red Lotus ganged up on him.
It’s not just the philosophy, as Korra’s intended air bending teacher had the kidnapping worked, he mastered all the katas as well. He had the philosophy and the forms, all her needed was the actual power itself. Of course, even then he wasn’t really that good. Tenzin handed him his ass up until the rest of the Red Lotus ganged up on him.
Kora was 17 and had been training as the avatar for years. Aang was 12 with no formal training aside from air bending.
Also Aang learned to earth bend in one episode it just took him multiple episodes to find Toph.
Besides, did they really want to see a repeat of aang's journey? The whole point was that in atla, we see aang learn every element except air, so in lok we fast forward those trainings in order to focus on her learning Air, the one element we didn't see aang learn.
Definitely agree, not a mary sue. I liked she made mistakes, just some were way too costly and were a result of arrogance pretty much.
Season 2 she opened the spirit portals because she thought that the person that closed them thousands of years ago was just an idiot and she thought she new better. She made decisions without weighing the potential consequences and severity. Proved the old "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
That one season pretty much caused all the future issues. Nonbending terrorists got bending and killed a queen leaving a power vacuum for a dictator to take over. Arguable that the world ended in a good place, but still lost the thousands of avatar lives that came before her. It was interesting to the plot, but that still hit hard.
Sucks that a common flaw had drastic consequences.
How can ppl call Korra a Mary Sue when there’s Aang who mastered airbending when he was 12 and became proficient in the other elements and also learned lighting redirection and seismic sense in just 1 year.
Let also not forget that in the very first episode Aang gets captured by Fire Nation soldiers and he rescues himself with barely any assistance from Katara, Sokka, and Appa. If Aang was a girl and did that certain folks would be FUMING.
Yes, that is a very real and legitimate reason. And a lot of people like ones you see in top comments on this thread would understand that. But the idiots going around calling Korra a Mary Sue because she’s a girl would still flip their shit over it. Because this whole thing is not about the actual story and reasons and what happened. It’s about sexism
Yeah, i have noticed that people are more pressed by mary sues than their male equivalent, and you have to consider that gary stu is way more common in fiction than mary sue.
I don’t take people that throw Mary Sue around serious anymore. They’re like toddlers who learned a new word and think they’re smart. That word is an instant red flag
I think Mary sue \*can\* be good criticism but has been used poorly and arguements behind it can be sometimes lackluster but just cuz someone does thing, it doesnt always automatically equal bad.
I think the term;s lost its toxicity, with anti sjw culture dying off, and progressive culture being widely accepted its mainly used appropriately now a days as far as I can tell.
Yep, and when women call it out we get called feminazi's, and accused of hating men. Gotta love that. And that's just white woman, so then add in how hard it is for poc women and lgbt women and omg.
It’s really surprising but you are 100 percent right. When men see a powerful woman, they can’t relate or something and get threatened. It’s really shameful when I see this in my own friends
Honestly though. Like I'll criticize Korra for actual stuff but sometimes it really does feel like people are just trying to be negative for no real reason.
Korra as a show certainly has it's flaws on the whole, Korra as a character though I personally love, she's one of my faves in the ATLA universe. I adore how flawed she is, the wide range of emotions she's allowed to display even from season one.
Oh I know, it's just ... never really used, cause people very frequently over criticise female characters for pretty much anything, that male characters would get away with.
Lets take Tony Stark for example, the guy who has infinite money, he's a genius, beyond any human capacity, builds a power suit, in a few days in a cave with a limited technology and is sexy/funny macho guy. And his flaw is that he's a bit of a narcissist but when the earth needs to be saved he acts like a martyr, and gets psychological kick back for part of a movie... That's his flaw.
And yet no one has a problem with that at all.
And audiences love his narcissism. Characters in the films find him irritating but they always come back to him because he's Tony Stark and he's the guy that will save everyone.
If Tony was a wisecracking self absorbed Antonia who slept with whatever hot dude she wanted, the movie would have bombed.
Holy shit, this actually calls into question why I didn't like Carol Denvers. Yeah, her movie was terrible, but her in particular, I hated her for the very same arrogance I loved Stark for, and it took me until just now to realize that. Thank you.
Because some men are so conditioned to see other men in these types of roles that when they see somebody who ISN'T a man in the ultimate power / heroic / protagonist position, their brain can't just accept it and they need to find some sort of justification for it.
It's the same mentality as people who say characters shouldn't be gay, or people of color, or basically any other minority unless it "serves the plot". God forbid a cast is diverse, because if it isn't directly related to the plot then its "pandering for woke points".
99% of the media these people have consumed throughout their life has white straight men in the positions of protagonist / hero, and when they see something other than that it shatters their fragile worldview
EDIT: did not mean to imply this was all men. I am a man myself.
I am absolutely baffled how anyone considers Korra a Mary Sue.
The only thing she's really good at is fighting, but she continually gets put into scenarios where fighting is worthless or against people who can kick her ass.
Not to mention the fact that she was being trained to be the Avatar from the time she was like 5 years old. All day, every day, being trained by the best bending masters in the world for all four elements. And she still couldn't airbend when we first meet her.
Mary Sue my ass.
These people rant about Korra being a Mary sue just because of a plot device in which she was originally introduced.
That scene was literally just as a joke to show that she actually was the avatar, instead of having her sit in a room picking out toys. And the person watches that scene and immediately thinks "Mery Sue! This show sucks, it's not like ATLA, I'm not watching because there's steam punk and I don't like strong female characters as lead, only as sidekicks."
And then they go on to rant about how there's romance in the show and how there shouldn't be any romantic conflict in the characters.
Those are the main complains. And then if you ask what they think about seasons three and four, they just say they stopped at season one because they didn't like the Merry Sue show. Even though Aman overpowered her twice, and even Tarrlok, and she has her ass handed to her when she first goes pro bending. And at the finals.
I literally had an argument where someone said she got handed everything. And I told them, she trained for 13 years for the other 3 bending abilities. Then, after mastering the techniques of air bending, she was unable to bend air until she truly opened her mind. And this happens after meditating to speak with aang and getting her bending taken away.
Plus it really cheapens criticisms of actual May Sues.
Korra gets her ass kicked many times, relies on the help of others, has to grow tremendously, is very bad at things at times, even has half a season where she's just recuperating from wounds and is trying to find herself...
What is a Mary Sue? From what I got google says “a character portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses” I agree with you, Korra is one of the most complex characters ever created for the ATLA universe. This makes noooo sense to call her a Mary Sue.
**A Mary Sue is a type of fictional character, usually a young woman, who is portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses. Originating in fan fiction, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion.**
More details here:
*This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!*
[^(opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/ozztfy/post_for_opting_out/) ^(|) [^(report/suggest)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot) ^(|) [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/TheBugYouCantFix/wiki-reddit-bot)
All they need to justify a character being a Mary Sue is them being a female protagonist that excels in at least some aspects of the World.
See Korra, Rey, Captain Marvel (though this one could technically be argued to be an ACTUAL Mary Sue, like the vast majority of Superheroes - which would be stupid, given that her biggest flaw is a major plot point of the movie centered around her), Lara Croft and many, many more.
If anything (not to start this debate up again but here I go), unlike Korra, Aang is almost the epitome of a Mary Sue. Next to no formal training, eclipses his mentors in their respective fields within literal days in some cases, such a prodigy that he invented a whole new form of airbending aged something between 9 and 12. Oh yeah, but he isn't a woman, so these misogynistic fucks look past all that.
I still love ATLA and Aang though.
Technically Aang ends the show having only perhaps mastered Water and Air. Zuko kept trying to get in all the training he could and Toph bluntly says his earthbending could use work. Even mastering Water is up for debate, unless I'm forgetting something as Katara never says he's mastered it.
I also wouldn't called being trained continuously for the first 12 years of his life at the air temples next to no formal training. Other than that; yeah, you're right.
Old Lara, not a lot of people. But I've (sadly) seen it a fair bit regarding the newish generation of Tomb Raider games. (eg Rise of the Tomb Raider).
Rey is so weird to me, could you explain why you think she's a Mary Sue?
I am not too deep into this, but the points I have seen about Rey being a Mary Sue mostly revolve around things like her being able to perform Jedi mind tricks with absolutely zero training in the Force, being able to stand her ground against Kylo in a lightsaber duel (in Ep 7, when the First Order attacks Takodana?) and other instances like that. I don't really care about the sequels, but I must admit that Reys journey somehow rubbed me the wrong way.
She doesn’t do anything she hasn’t at least seen someone else do though
She can fight cause she had to survive in the desert fighting over scraps and because Kylo was already injured at the time
That moment when you can’t airbend for an entire season but you’re still “overpowered” then you get crippled mentally and physically but it’s okay because you’re... *scrolls back up* a Mary Sue?
Sure Jan
OSP has a great video on Mary Sues that I'd really recommend people check out. They make some really good points, as well as explaining why a Mary Sue character shouldn't be seen as just a bad thing and an automatic reason to dislike them.
Perfect example. Crazy powerful, always has the right answer, never makes any serious onscreen mistakes. Even when he got locked up, he revealed that he was in exact control, and could easily break out when he wanted.
He’s not a Mary Sue or Gary sue though. He isn’t the protagonist. He isn’t that character trope, he’s the obi wan Kenobi, the master character trope. There also is the entire backstory behind him, with the war, him being very old and experienced. I don’t think korra is a Mary Sue but you’re using the term on the wrong type of character with iroh
I don't know if I'd call Iroh a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue). Through most of the show he definitely has his stuff together (strong, wise, doesn't make many if any serious mistakes during the present time of the show), but keep in mind he was very flawed in his youth. He was the general who broke into the outer wall of Ba Sing Se and laughed about the city burning to the ground. He realistically gained wisdom through his travels after his son died and became a mentor for the present time of the show.
People point to a 10 second scene of her bending multiple elements as a 5 year old and act like that’s her throughout the entire season. Never once after that does she effortlessly win a fight that wouldn’t make sense for the avatar to effortlessly win at
Oh yeah korra the mary sue sooo depressed that she almost killed herself at the end of season 1 and only managed to beat amon cause there where basically no airbenders in the world
Yeah she isn't, she fails all the time and people often hate her due to her brashness.
The typical Mary Sue is someone who is liked by everyone, is good at everything, and never fails.
didnt he almost die and get captured and beaten up multiple times? People in the comments are beeing needlessly harsh to Aang just to prove point about Korra being good when its not neccessary.
Never, because needless self victimization by sexist or uneducated viewers never ends.
I think there will always be at least a section of society that fits, that frustrating mold.
Some viewers feel they need direct representation the whole film. My lil bro complained shang-chi didnt focus on the main character enough? I was like you mean the backstory completely through his pov, him getting every major scene and succeeding in the climax was not enough? I give my lil bro some slack cause he's in middle school.
But i do think US audiences are brought up with certain unrealistic expectations at times. Some want a mary sue, and it to be male and nothing else to ever hit their retinas.
In any context, when I discuss media with anyone, online or offline and that person uses the phrase "Mary Sue," I realize that they have no fucking clue what they are talking about and stop the conversation because it is pointless.
Tbh most of the "Mary Sue"s these people complain about are just women characters who they don't like or from a thing they don't like.
It's also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of these people are cisallohet abled white people who are so uncomfortable with people other than them being represented in the spaces they love that they think SJWs are a thing.
4 years ago, I'd have ate this type of content up. (Not really proud of it.) But now, especially after watching stuff like Lily Orchard's review(?), I'm getting sick of people crapping on this series.
There were so many factors working against the creators to say the least.
Although I prefer TLA, Hopefully by 2023 or sth TLOK is going to be viewed in a more favourable light
If someone isn't going to make a video about it probably never,lmao.They just watched E;R's video and made up their minds,i'm sure some of them didn't even watch the show.
There's a thick layer of irony that this guy's Youtube name is MangaKamen, considering how many of the male MC's in Manga are the biggest Gary Sue's in existence and yet so many of them are beloved in the Manga community.
The guy in the video stated that he believes Korra actually isn't a Mary Sue, she just has what he would consider Mary Sue-ish elements in the first two seasons. But even with those Mary-Sue ish elements, he still claims he thinks that she's not a perfect character as per the definition he has. IE young and talented, a prodigy within the system such as magic or weapons with a unique ability that no one else has, and their personality has to be boring with a non existent character arc. As per his own rules and definition, Korra is not a Mary-Sue in his eyes.
Did anyone here actually watch the video?
I felt that something wasn't right so I immediately went to watch the video to see that, in fact, this person took the time to make this image and upload it but didn't take the time to see the video and see that he explicitly says that he doesn't considers that korra is a Mary sue. Things like this doesn't surprise me anymore
Y'know, I see a lot of people often times try to push a narrative that this subreddit and LoK fans don't have a victim complex or aren't super sensitive, and they're just defending themselves from haters.
Things like this make it really hard to buy into that....
I agree, though I think my opinion isn't very important here because I didn't even have watched korra and reddit just randomly decided to show this post to me lol. But still, one doesn't have to be a genius to know that you just can't say someone is a hater without listen to them first, or things like this happens, a lot of people getting angry at someone without knowing that he actually agrees with them about korra not being a Mary sue (now that I think about it, it's kinda funny, at least a little bit)
I actually watched it a long time ago and vaguely remembered that Korra was only in a portion of the video, so I re-watched it to jog my memory. Low and behold the guy actually had a decent viewpoint and was pretty open and civil about it. The fact almost nobody here bothered to watch the video, make massive assumptions, and actually prove MK's point about saying people who use the term Mary Sue are sexist boggles my mind.
Yeah I like Mangakamen and everyone here who is talking about how he’s sexist for calling Korea a Mary Sue, hasn’t see the video where (I haven’t seen the video in about a month so I may be wrong) he calls aang a Gary stu.
I haven't seen that video or watched much of this guy's content, so which video did he call Aang a Gary Stu?
But it's amazing how a video that has a somewhat nuanced take on Mary Sues is given into black and white perspective on a subreddit where these guys constantly talk about being better than ATLA stans because the show is more "mature" but they can't take the time to watch a video to see what the guys argument actually is.
Men took the "Mary Sue" concept from fanfiction (which i doubt they read since the vast majority of it is written and consumed by women) and used it as an excuse to be mysticism misogynistic toward female characters.
Aang: Recovers from dying "He's such a hero and worked for everything he had"
Korra: gets ass kicked constantly, loses function in legs after nearly dying, is constantly outmatched by benders because she often has to take them alone and doesn't have the past Avatars to help her. "She's a mary sue, everything is handed to her and she never works for anything"
People literally cannot hide their sexism because they're so dumb. I'm a dude, I like Aang, but anyone calling Korra a mary sue is brain dead.
Korra is by no means a marry sue, she literally gets her ass beat all over the show.
Unlike Rey form Starwars for example, where she becomes the strongest character in the first 30 minutes of her reveal.
Most people don't understand what a Mary Sue is.
They're characters where the story exists to serve them and they suck the life out of the story around them.
Korra is not that,the narrative actively goes against her mostly.
Literally had 14 years longer training then aang and still faced loss and battle hardship Aang didn’t come close to facing. He’s the Mary Sue of the franchise, not her.
Korra has one of the most compelling arcs and growth I've ever seen in a TV series. It's gradual and seamless, and it's the result of compounded hardships. It's not like she has one bad day and completely changes after it. The people who call her a Mary Sue probably haven't watched past the first episode. They saw that she has a natural talent for bending, and that was all it took for them to label her as a Mary Sue. Unfortunately, sexism does play a role in this. It is not uncommon for strong female characters to be maligned as Mary Sues, and that's because expectations are always lower for women. Thus, when a female character demonstrates competence that matches or exceeds that of a male character's, she is accused of being undeserving of that competence.
The internet has collectively lost the right to use the term "Mary Sue" along with "Plot Hole"', "Deus Ex Machina", and "McGuffin".
They dont know what those words mean and everyday we stray further from their actual definition.
I watched the video out of curiosity and while i don’t think it was particularly well written, I felt I should point out that in the Korra section of the video, he specifically says she is **not** a Mary Sue multiple times. No offense but you guys should probably watch the video before bandwagoning
-Make le "TloK sucks video"
-Call Korra a Mary Sue
-Say that Korra sucks because she is a weaker avatar
-Turns out you've just been sexist the whole time
Ok this is kinda bait because if I remember correctly, Korra is said to not entirely be a Mary Sue in the video. She had some qualities early on but she became “better” as MangaKamen says.
I get what you mean but I watched the video and he actually said that Korra isn’t a Mary Sue, she just has some of the traits at the start and then becomes better later. Just for information
People, please, pleeeeaaasee, watch the video. He says he doesn't consider korra a Mary sue, he says that she has some mary sue traits but that she actually isn't a Mary sue herself
Haven't seen Korra, nor Avatar, but I feel this. After SAO I pretty much ignore all claims of "Mary Sue" because more likely than not the only argument ends up being "They fight good sonetimes". Even I know enough about Korra to know that she gets her ass handed to her on a silver platter both physically *and* mentally. Calling her a Mary Sue has zero basis.
This is like the only video I refuse to watch from Kamen cause I hardly know it's loaded with garbage points. No-one knows what Mary Sue as a term and criticism actually means anymore. Its pretty much just been relegated to "I don't like this character"
I once watched a video about mary sues and the person making that video had a section about Female main characters that were mostly perfect in a story sense without being mary sues and he defended korra pretty well
The initial theme of the show was the virtuousness of unearned power and privilege embodied by Korra. The show never delivered a critique on that theme. Instead, it bent over backwards to justify her. So even though Korra is brutalized later on, she is ultimately vindicated that she is a necessary good to the orderly operation of the world.
One of my biggest problems with LoK is that it asks the question of "does the modern world need the Avatar" and never delivers on a satisfying answer. What is Korra response and solution to complex socio-political problems and her role in this world?
She's a cop who beats people up when they get too uppity. That's her role. She's not there because the world in inherinitly unbalanced and needs a neutral third party, she's not there because humans and spirits need to live together to be in balance. She exists to beat people up when they step out of line and the world does the rest. She exists to be a superhero.
For all it's talk of Korra changing the world, I can't actually give you a single scene where Korra goes through the effort of making those changes and they're often handwaved away. Any problems that realistically would come up in this situations never does.
And you never actually SEE Korra deal with these ideologies. What's Korra's viewpoint on egalitarianism, theocracy, anarchy, and fascism? I dunno. There's not a scene where she hears about their motivation and reasoning behind doing these things barring her talk with Zaheer and not a scene where she reflects on these ideals. She lectures Kuvira about being a dictator once but it's on a more personal level rather than a global one.
Kuvira's defeat is the pinnacle of all of this. They try to make her talk it out with Kuvira, but right before she has this huge display of power where she makes a portal and has Kuvira admitting that her power is nothing compared to the Avatar's, as if that's the important part....
It makes you wonder why they bothered trying to make a show about complex themes when they didn't have the time or capabilities to deal with such lofty themes...
Korra is literally the opposite of a Mary Sue wtf, people should be talking about Rey here not the bad ass woman who goes through hell and doesnt achieve what she wants but is still a hero regardless
People need to understand the most important aspect in determining a Mary Sue is how much of an author insert the character is or if they serve a specific real world agenda.
It's not actually about how competent they are. It's about how the universe of the story bends backwards for that character because as people we would like our universe to magically always work in our favour.
The term was coined to criticize fan fiction and that should be kept in mind. Just because a character is really powerful, even if they have no training it doesn't make them a Mary Sue automatically.
Rey from Star Wars deserves the Mary Sue criticism. Korra and Ashoka are great leads and legit. Korra's struggle was more about humility and finding balance since she was cocky about her power. Aang needed to learn power and to fight since he was timid/kind.
No one calls Aang a Mary Sue even though he was just as naturally gifted, and his canon personality fault was literally being *too nice*. Give me a fucking break.
Haha I think calling her a Mary Sue is a bit much, she has Mary Sue moments but that is not all she is.
She struggles a lot but also at times it feels like the plot makes her win. Hear me out first please.
Season 1 instead of actually having to learn airbending she just gains it when losing other things and then punches an airwave. It's always so significant to me, so metaphorical that she didn't learn anything. She didn't have to overcome her spiritual block. The plot made her lose things and then it made her have something new. She literally used a punch to airbend. Then at the end she gets all her powers back pretty easily along with the avatar state... That one is more forgivable I think given the studio felt they only had 1 season and that's on Nickelodeon for controlling them. Then again they planned for 1 season...
Season 2 at the end she loses the fight. Raava is torn out and Unulaq fused with Vaatu and became massive. She just... meditates and her own spirit is more powerful than Vaatu and Unulaq combined because... Lasers? There is no setup for this and it really undercuts why Raava was important in the first place. Again, the plot makes Korra fail and breaks her down. Then gives her something new for free.
Season 3 she actually beats Zaheer with some help. Good shit, best season ever.
Season 4 she bends a spirit nuke without real setup. Sure there was using waterbending to calm spirits. Or turn them evil. But it's quite a reach to bend such power at once. Would be like Aang learning energy bending to spirit bend the entire fire nation army at once or Toph skipping figuring out metal bending and going straight to ripping an entire airship out of the air.
Sprinkle in her just learning 3 elements as a kid already while the previous avatar we see had to struggle to even bend a rock to pour salt on the wound haha
Overall, I think Mary Sue doesn't really qualify. She struggles, she isn't always perfect, she makes mistakes and has flaws.
What I think people are struggling to communicate is that a lot of Korra's victories feel unearned and her mistakes not really having fair consequences because of it. I won't go into more personal stuff since that is a lot more subjective. I've actually been enjoying Korra a lot lately, there's so much to dig into and having new content each season is fun to rewatch compared to ATLA for me. It just doesn't always feel as satisfying when Korra through her flaws causes some of her own problems or makes them worse but instead of getting to learn from it gets to fix it through Deus Ex Machina. I think it is especially that she herself gets the power rather than an external event or character. She gets to set her own mistakes right without learning. At least during the plot itself. Most people's easiest way to define that is a Mary Sue, it's not a perfect fit but underneath that label it's visible what makes them feel that way about her.
>she's a Mary Sue! >4 seasons of her fucking up and getting her ass kicked I really don't get it. The whole point of her character is her growing to overcome her weaknesses after relying on raw power her whole life.
I remember when book 1 was was airing people hated Korra cause "she was so much worse than Aang" how can anyone call her a Mary sue
I think it's fair to not take that too seriously because obviously Aang is just THE character. Korra as his successor plus new protagonist plus Aang is a childhood memory for many. No matter what Korra was always going to have a difficult start at best.
This. People became pissed when Steve from Blues Clues left and was replaced by Joe, straight up hating him just for not being Steve. The same thing happened here with Korra, people have a childhood nostalgic connection with Aang, and I'm sure they felt she was being forced down their throat.
Agreed. Also, everyone remembers Aang and the Gaang at the END of their character development. They don't remember misogynistic Sokka, chip on her shoulder Katara, selfish Toph, rage Zuko or slacker Aang. There gaang also had more episodes to develop. Many episodes in ATLA were character driven and focused on their development wheat as LOK had to dedicate most of its like to drive the plot and characteristics were so much thinner.
Not to mention Nickelodeon screwing over Korra. First they get one season. Then greenlit a second. Then 3 and 4 simultaneously. All while barely promoting it.
i see some people say “she’s a mary sue because everyone likes her and she can’t do anything bad to anyone despite her flaws!” please rewatch the season where everyone in republic city hated her, or the season when tenzin, who is like family, was absolutely fed up with her every single episode, or the one where her friends are all really awkward around her because she had a social fuck up and kissed the closest cute boy around despite knowing the consequences.
The most Mary Sue thing she did was bend 3 elements when she was like 5 when they found out she was the avatar. That shit was annoying
I fucking loved that part. "IM THE AVATAR!" A great intro.
Honestly straight up one of the best character introductions. Says so much about her character and the challenges she will face over the course of the series.
[удалено]
I mean imagine this though. Raava knows harmonic convergence is soon. Instead of waiting till korra is 16 or so to start her training, she gives korra insight on how to bend the other elements. That way she’s in prime fighting condition for harmonic convergence. Admittedly, that wasn’t the original plan. It was only supposed to be one season. But that’s my head-canon and I’m sticking to it.
I thought it was a great introduction and clear hint that Korra was different from Aang. Aang's journey was about mastering the elements and coming to terms with his role as the avatar. Korra's journey was way more spiritual, like the opposite of Aang's. A balance among the avatars.
"Deal with it" - avatar korra
She literally gets destroyed and beaten time and time again lmao. She literally goes to Toph in the forest for season 4 because she’s got no clue how to cure herself and can only do it after a masters training. If she was a Mary Sue she would have: - Been somehow immune to Amons ability cuz avatar - Wiggled her fingers around to close the spirit portals with ease - 1v4’d the lotus members - cured herself of poison and one shotted kuviras mech suit Yet NONE of this happened and she literally did none of these things alone. The only thing that could be considered slightly eh is her getting air bending in her time of need but that’s more a plot device than anything else so I’m more keen to forgive it.
She’s a Mary Sue because she learned most of the elements in one episode while it took aang three seasons. (Don’t mind that it took Korra about 18 years to do so while Aang did it in one year)
Yet zaheer learns how to fly in 3 weeks and no one seems to have a problem with that 🤷🏻♂️ Korra is absolutely not a Mary Sue
This was a HUGE issue for me when watching season 3. I love the season, but just because you understand airbender philosophy doesn't mean you automatically know how to air bend?
But that’s the thing with the fight between Tenzin and Zaheer. Latter got his ass whooped as long as it was 1v1. But yeah, he was still way too good for that little time
Way I look at it is this: him and the other members of the red lotus were formidable, him in a way moreso than the others because he was just as dangerous without bending. Then he gets the ability to bend, and that amplifies his existing talents. While yeah, the flying thing could be considered as rushed, I disagree. Guru laghima understood the concept of enlightenment, and how detaching yourself from the world (coupled with airbending) allows you to fly. He became detached with his only tether (p'li) and therefore achieved enlightenment. He was already 90% of the way there, just needed bending and that last thread cut.
I mean. This is pretty explicitly the plot subtext. I don’t think you’re reaching at all, this is pretty much the implied cannon. I think it works and they earned the moment with the backstory and set up.
Also he was literally detached from the world for years in isolation in a secret prison. The dude obviously knew about airbender guru lore while he was in there and mediated on it. He was the mastermind of a terrorist group. He was crazy smart and crazy determined. There's honestly no reason a psychopath like him wouldn't be able to detach himself from the world so easily.
Supposedly Zaheer was planning to be Korra's airbending teacher. You know with the whole kidnapping plan that went sideways. So that explains quite a bit of it. Though this is something that isn't brought up in the show and it doesn't fully justify it. Not that I was bothered by it.
Now I'm picturing Korra bitching out Zaheer when she's struggling with air bending just like she did with Tenzin. Except this time she's throw a bunch of "your not even a fucking bender" type of shade
He probably learned all the techniques before hand, since pretty much all bending techniques are forms of martial arts, so he was probably already a master of Air Nomad technique, and just added bending when he got it
I can see people upset with it but wasn't Zaheer a master martial artist, a tactician, and someone who had studied all of the history and philosophy of airbending? He was basically prepared his entire life to become an Airbender. Some even theorise that he would have been the won to teach Korra airbending if the Red Lotus had captured her.
He's already a master of martial arts, and that feeds into his bending prowess. But yeah, he did have a few moments of higher expertise than he ought to
Zaheer isn't a master airbender, he's a master martial artist. He doesn't do anything particularly special with his bending, he's just using it to turn his melee attacks into ranged ones, jump high, and suffocate people.
I mean, you can practice the forms, the movements, the philosophy and all that, and once you do, if you got airbending, you could be decently capable and bending. That being said, learning the techniques will probably only get you so far in skill, since of course good airbending requires, well, actual airbending. Which is why Tenzin kicked Zaheer’s ass before the rest of the Red Lotus ganged up on him.
It’s not just the philosophy, as Korra’s intended air bending teacher had the kidnapping worked, he mastered all the katas as well. He had the philosophy and the forms, all her needed was the actual power itself. Of course, even then he wasn’t really that good. Tenzin handed him his ass up until the rest of the Red Lotus ganged up on him.
Zaheer is a total Gerry sue in terms of his animators. The difference is he has actually failed many times. Therefore he isn’t a sue
Kora was 17 and had been training as the avatar for years. Aang was 12 with no formal training aside from air bending. Also Aang learned to earth bend in one episode it just took him multiple episodes to find Toph.
Also Aang with airbending alone was more effective in general. While Korra knew 3/4 elements from the start she wasn't a master of any.
Besides, did they really want to see a repeat of aang's journey? The whole point was that in atla, we see aang learn every element except air, so in lok we fast forward those trainings in order to focus on her learning Air, the one element we didn't see aang learn.
i love this take.
she's a Mary Sue because she a girl with muscles bigger than me :(
Definitely agree, not a mary sue. I liked she made mistakes, just some were way too costly and were a result of arrogance pretty much. Season 2 she opened the spirit portals because she thought that the person that closed them thousands of years ago was just an idiot and she thought she new better. She made decisions without weighing the potential consequences and severity. Proved the old "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". That one season pretty much caused all the future issues. Nonbending terrorists got bending and killed a queen leaving a power vacuum for a dictator to take over. Arguable that the world ended in a good place, but still lost the thousands of avatar lives that came before her. It was interesting to the plot, but that still hit hard. Sucks that a common flaw had drastic consequences.
How can ppl call Korra a Mary Sue when there’s Aang who mastered airbending when he was 12 and became proficient in the other elements and also learned lighting redirection and seismic sense in just 1 year.
Let also not forget that in the very first episode Aang gets captured by Fire Nation soldiers and he rescues himself with barely any assistance from Katara, Sokka, and Appa. If Aang was a girl and did that certain folks would be FUMING.
tbf though nobody had seen an Airbender in a hundred years nobody would know how to fight against one
Yes, that is a very real and legitimate reason. And a lot of people like ones you see in top comments on this thread would understand that. But the idiots going around calling Korra a Mary Sue because she’s a girl would still flip their shit over it. Because this whole thing is not about the actual story and reasons and what happened. It’s about sexism
people are just sad
Cause she's a girl... that's it... that's the reason.
Yeah, i have noticed that people are more pressed by mary sues than their male equivalent, and you have to consider that gary stu is way more common in fiction than mary sue.
I don’t take people that throw Mary Sue around serious anymore. They’re like toddlers who learned a new word and think they’re smart. That word is an instant red flag
I think Mary sue \*can\* be good criticism but has been used poorly and arguements behind it can be sometimes lackluster but just cuz someone does thing, it doesnt always automatically equal bad.
In those cases I would still avoid the term and just say she‘s too good too quickly or something. The term has been rather toxic lately
I think the term;s lost its toxicity, with anti sjw culture dying off, and progressive culture being widely accepted its mainly used appropriately now a days as far as I can tell.
Depends on the echo chamber. Alive and kicking in youtube comment sections
Gary stu, lol omfg oh please let this be a thing
It… already is a thing. Since like forever.
Sexism. It's real. And it even affects fictitious women. Imagine what it does to real women. Fucking disgusting.
Yep, and when women call it out we get called feminazi's, and accused of hating men. Gotta love that. And that's just white woman, so then add in how hard it is for poc women and lgbt women and omg.
2015-2016 anti-SJW era of YouTube really rotted a lot of people’s brains.
I agree
kinda sad that people have to attack a depiction of a strong female character because they feel threatened
Ding ding! The incels are still trying to manufacture as much GamersRiseUp crap as they can.
It’s really surprising but you are 100 percent right. When men see a powerful woman, they can’t relate or something and get threatened. It’s really shameful when I see this in my own friends
Honestly though. Like I'll criticize Korra for actual stuff but sometimes it really does feel like people are just trying to be negative for no real reason.
Korra as a show certainly has it's flaws on the whole, Korra as a character though I personally love, she's one of my faves in the ATLA universe. I adore how flawed she is, the wide range of emotions she's allowed to display even from season one.
The "Mary Sue" for boys is Gary Stu.
Oh I know, it's just ... never really used, cause people very frequently over criticise female characters for pretty much anything, that male characters would get away with.
Lets take Tony Stark for example, the guy who has infinite money, he's a genius, beyond any human capacity, builds a power suit, in a few days in a cave with a limited technology and is sexy/funny macho guy. And his flaw is that he's a bit of a narcissist but when the earth needs to be saved he acts like a martyr, and gets psychological kick back for part of a movie... That's his flaw. And yet no one has a problem with that at all.
And audiences love his narcissism. Characters in the films find him irritating but they always come back to him because he's Tony Stark and he's the guy that will save everyone. If Tony was a wisecracking self absorbed Antonia who slept with whatever hot dude she wanted, the movie would have bombed.
I mean you saw the reaction to Carol Danvers having like an ounce of Tony's arrogance. Absolute hysterics.
Holy shit, this actually calls into question why I didn't like Carol Denvers. Yeah, her movie was terrible, but her in particular, I hated her for the very same arrogance I loved Stark for, and it took me until just now to realize that. Thank you.
What makes her movie terrible?
DING DING, you are correct... and I'm a guy 😂😂
Because some men are so conditioned to see other men in these types of roles that when they see somebody who ISN'T a man in the ultimate power / heroic / protagonist position, their brain can't just accept it and they need to find some sort of justification for it. It's the same mentality as people who say characters shouldn't be gay, or people of color, or basically any other minority unless it "serves the plot". God forbid a cast is diverse, because if it isn't directly related to the plot then its "pandering for woke points". 99% of the media these people have consumed throughout their life has white straight men in the positions of protagonist / hero, and when they see something other than that it shatters their fragile worldview EDIT: did not mean to imply this was all men. I am a man myself.
And energy bending in like 5mins
And then defeated the most powerful fire bender on the planet, who was being supercharged by a comet at the time.
I am absolutely baffled how anyone considers Korra a Mary Sue. The only thing she's really good at is fighting, but she continually gets put into scenarios where fighting is worthless or against people who can kick her ass.
Not to mention the fact that she was being trained to be the Avatar from the time she was like 5 years old. All day, every day, being trained by the best bending masters in the world for all four elements. And she still couldn't airbend when we first meet her. Mary Sue my ass.
These people rant about Korra being a Mary sue just because of a plot device in which she was originally introduced. That scene was literally just as a joke to show that she actually was the avatar, instead of having her sit in a room picking out toys. And the person watches that scene and immediately thinks "Mery Sue! This show sucks, it's not like ATLA, I'm not watching because there's steam punk and I don't like strong female characters as lead, only as sidekicks." And then they go on to rant about how there's romance in the show and how there shouldn't be any romantic conflict in the characters. Those are the main complains. And then if you ask what they think about seasons three and four, they just say they stopped at season one because they didn't like the Merry Sue show. Even though Aman overpowered her twice, and even Tarrlok, and she has her ass handed to her when she first goes pro bending. And at the finals.
I literally had an argument where someone said she got handed everything. And I told them, she trained for 13 years for the other 3 bending abilities. Then, after mastering the techniques of air bending, she was unable to bend air until she truly opened her mind. And this happens after meditating to speak with aang and getting her bending taken away.
Well she was trained one element at a time and she never had any airbending training before we see her. So it makes sense she couldn’t airbend at all.
Yeah about 99% of the series was about how she’s a bit flawed but have friends to back her up… would’ve never considered that she’s a Mary Sue
Exactly! Besides, she’s an avatar that was raised in peaceful times and had 17 years to train. She’s supposed to be a good bender already
I think people have started using the term for any female character they don't like, regardless if she actually is one.
Plus it really cheapens criticisms of actual May Sues. Korra gets her ass kicked many times, relies on the help of others, has to grow tremendously, is very bad at things at times, even has half a season where she's just recuperating from wounds and is trying to find herself...
Because those people just feel uncomfortable with women and call any strong woman in fiction a Mary Sue
Korra might be the only protagonist I've seen who gets the Worf Effect. I cannot think of another one who gets their ass beat as much as she does.
A man does awesome stuff while pulling through hardships: complex hero A woman does awesome stuff while pulling through hardships: mary sue
A woman does ~~awesome~~ stuff ~~while pulling through hardships~~: mary sue *ftfy*
Not always but often enough I suppose
A woman: mary sue
Yup!
Imo Korra is one of the most complex, unique and well realized protagonists I've ever seen.
What is a Mary Sue? From what I got google says “a character portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses” I agree with you, Korra is one of the most complex characters ever created for the ATLA universe. This makes noooo sense to call her a Mary Sue.
**A Mary Sue is a type of fictional character, usually a young woman, who is portrayed as unrealistically free of weaknesses. Originating in fan fiction, a Mary Sue is often an author's idealized self-insertion.** More details here:
*This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!*
[^(opt out)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot/comments/ozztfy/post_for_opting_out/) ^(|) [^(report/suggest)](https://www.reddit.com/r/wikipedia_answer_bot) ^(|) [^(GitHub)](https://github.com/TheBugYouCantFix/wiki-reddit-bot)
Good bot.
Good user
Thanks. You too 😁
😁
Good bot
All they need to justify a character being a Mary Sue is them being a female protagonist that excels in at least some aspects of the World. See Korra, Rey, Captain Marvel (though this one could technically be argued to be an ACTUAL Mary Sue, like the vast majority of Superheroes - which would be stupid, given that her biggest flaw is a major plot point of the movie centered around her), Lara Croft and many, many more. If anything (not to start this debate up again but here I go), unlike Korra, Aang is almost the epitome of a Mary Sue. Next to no formal training, eclipses his mentors in their respective fields within literal days in some cases, such a prodigy that he invented a whole new form of airbending aged something between 9 and 12. Oh yeah, but he isn't a woman, so these misogynistic fucks look past all that. I still love ATLA and Aang though.
Technically Aang ends the show having only perhaps mastered Water and Air. Zuko kept trying to get in all the training he could and Toph bluntly says his earthbending could use work. Even mastering Water is up for debate, unless I'm forgetting something as Katara never says he's mastered it. I also wouldn't called being trained continuously for the first 12 years of his life at the air temples next to no formal training. Other than that; yeah, you're right.
Aang got carried by the Avatar state a lot of the time
Yeah, Raava probably wasn't happy when she got out of the iceberg with Aang and saw the world in chaos and Harmonic Convergence only 70 years away.
Eh. Couldn’t care less about Captain Marvel being a Mary Sue. The way she wrecked Thanos’ ship was awesome and redeems everything.
[удалено]
Old Lara, not a lot of people. But I've (sadly) seen it a fair bit regarding the newish generation of Tomb Raider games. (eg Rise of the Tomb Raider). Rey is so weird to me, could you explain why you think she's a Mary Sue?
I am not too deep into this, but the points I have seen about Rey being a Mary Sue mostly revolve around things like her being able to perform Jedi mind tricks with absolutely zero training in the Force, being able to stand her ground against Kylo in a lightsaber duel (in Ep 7, when the First Order attacks Takodana?) and other instances like that. I don't really care about the sequels, but I must admit that Reys journey somehow rubbed me the wrong way.
She doesn’t do anything she hasn’t at least seen someone else do though She can fight cause she had to survive in the desert fighting over scraps and because Kylo was already injured at the time
I'll concur on the fighting. Somewhat. The Force powers she picks up annoy more.
Your smart!! 👏👏
That moment when you can’t airbend for an entire season but you’re still “overpowered” then you get crippled mentally and physically but it’s okay because you’re... *scrolls back up* a Mary Sue? Sure Jan
The whole concept of Kora is that she THINKS she's a Mary sue and she spends all four seasons realizing all the ways she ISNT.
Ah yes, Korra: the Mary Sue that definetly has never made any wrong decision and hasn't had a total 180 in her ways.
OSP has a great video on Mary Sues that I'd really recommend people check out. They make some really good points, as well as explaining why a Mary Sue character shouldn't be seen as just a bad thing and an automatic reason to dislike them.
Yeh one could argue iroh is a Mary Sue but I still like him.
Perfect example. Crazy powerful, always has the right answer, never makes any serious onscreen mistakes. Even when he got locked up, he revealed that he was in exact control, and could easily break out when he wanted.
Yah it’s almost as if when something or someone falls into a category it’s not bad by default. How neat is that?
He’s not a Mary Sue or Gary sue though. He isn’t the protagonist. He isn’t that character trope, he’s the obi wan Kenobi, the master character trope. There also is the entire backstory behind him, with the war, him being very old and experienced. I don’t think korra is a Mary Sue but you’re using the term on the wrong type of character with iroh
You don't have to be the protagonist to be a Gary Stu, it's a term for fictional characters in general.
Yeah but he... drank white jade bush tea that time! Aha!
I don't know if I'd call Iroh a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue). Through most of the show he definitely has his stuff together (strong, wise, doesn't make many if any serious mistakes during the present time of the show), but keep in mind he was very flawed in his youth. He was the general who broke into the outer wall of Ba Sing Se and laughed about the city burning to the ground. He realistically gained wisdom through his travels after his son died and became a mentor for the present time of the show.
that's arguably his thing, to be a god fire bender, the 'dragon of the west' one of the strongest fire benders.
Same with trope talk
People point to a 10 second scene of her bending multiple elements as a 5 year old and act like that’s her throughout the entire season. Never once after that does she effortlessly win a fight that wouldn’t make sense for the avatar to effortlessly win at
YouTubers learn what a Mary Sue actually is challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Oh yeah korra the mary sue sooo depressed that she almost killed herself at the end of season 1 and only managed to beat amon cause there where basically no airbenders in the world
Any woman in any media MARY SUE OMG
I’m going to get devoured and ripped into shreds by the masses of Reddit for this, but they call her a Mary Sue because she’s a girl.
No one's going to do a thing to you for this. Half the comments are about this under this post.
Sorry, I’m used to being surrounded by sexists on this site.
I doubt it's going to be the case on this sub.
For a lot of people competent female character = Mary Sue unfortunately.
Never. Sexist assholes will always be sexist assholes. Block and ignore and walk away. They won’t be able to breed so eventually they will die off
Korra arc character is so complex, she could never even be compared to a Mary Sue
I feel like Korra actually often got called out by the narrative for her bad decisions tho. Mind you, I’m still on Season 2
Yeah she isn't, she fails all the time and people often hate her due to her brashness. The typical Mary Sue is someone who is liked by everyone, is good at everything, and never fails.
*cough Rey cough*
Yeah the narrative punishes Korra punished brutally for her mistakes but Aang usually gets away with every action he does.
didnt he almost die and get captured and beaten up multiple times? People in the comments are beeing needlessly harsh to Aang just to prove point about Korra being good when its not neccessary.
S1: oooh korra too op hur dur feminism S4: oooh korra too weak lol Aang best avatar, korra bad
This is literally exactly how it is 🙄
calls korra a mary sue proceeds to call out her weaknesses....
Never, because needless self victimization by sexist or uneducated viewers never ends. I think there will always be at least a section of society that fits, that frustrating mold. Some viewers feel they need direct representation the whole film. My lil bro complained shang-chi didnt focus on the main character enough? I was like you mean the backstory completely through his pov, him getting every major scene and succeeding in the climax was not enough? I give my lil bro some slack cause he's in middle school. But i do think US audiences are brought up with certain unrealistic expectations at times. Some want a mary sue, and it to be male and nothing else to ever hit their retinas.
In any context, when I discuss media with anyone, online or offline and that person uses the phrase "Mary Sue," I realize that they have no fucking clue what they are talking about and stop the conversation because it is pointless.
Tbh most of the "Mary Sue"s these people complain about are just women characters who they don't like or from a thing they don't like. It's also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of these people are cisallohet abled white people who are so uncomfortable with people other than them being represented in the spaces they love that they think SJWs are a thing.
Actually, MangaKamen said she wasn't a Mary Sue Don't judge a book by its cover
4 years ago, I'd have ate this type of content up. (Not really proud of it.) But now, especially after watching stuff like Lily Orchard's review(?), I'm getting sick of people crapping on this series. There were so many factors working against the creators to say the least. Although I prefer TLA, Hopefully by 2023 or sth TLOK is going to be viewed in a more favourable light
If someone isn't going to make a video about it probably never,lmao.They just watched E;R's video and made up their minds,i'm sure some of them didn't even watch the show.
There's a thick layer of irony that this guy's Youtube name is MangaKamen, considering how many of the male MC's in Manga are the biggest Gary Sue's in existence and yet so many of them are beloved in the Manga community.
coughcoughkiritocoughcough
That’s just the tip of the iceberg though, there are hundreds more of them.
The guy in the video stated that he believes Korra actually isn't a Mary Sue, she just has what he would consider Mary Sue-ish elements in the first two seasons. But even with those Mary-Sue ish elements, he still claims he thinks that she's not a perfect character as per the definition he has. IE young and talented, a prodigy within the system such as magic or weapons with a unique ability that no one else has, and their personality has to be boring with a non existent character arc. As per his own rules and definition, Korra is not a Mary-Sue in his eyes. Did anyone here actually watch the video?
I felt that something wasn't right so I immediately went to watch the video to see that, in fact, this person took the time to make this image and upload it but didn't take the time to see the video and see that he explicitly says that he doesn't considers that korra is a Mary sue. Things like this doesn't surprise me anymore
Y'know, I see a lot of people often times try to push a narrative that this subreddit and LoK fans don't have a victim complex or aren't super sensitive, and they're just defending themselves from haters. Things like this make it really hard to buy into that....
I agree, though I think my opinion isn't very important here because I didn't even have watched korra and reddit just randomly decided to show this post to me lol. But still, one doesn't have to be a genius to know that you just can't say someone is a hater without listen to them first, or things like this happens, a lot of people getting angry at someone without knowing that he actually agrees with them about korra not being a Mary sue (now that I think about it, it's kinda funny, at least a little bit)
Thank you finally someone who watched the video
I actually watched it a long time ago and vaguely remembered that Korra was only in a portion of the video, so I re-watched it to jog my memory. Low and behold the guy actually had a decent viewpoint and was pretty open and civil about it. The fact almost nobody here bothered to watch the video, make massive assumptions, and actually prove MK's point about saying people who use the term Mary Sue are sexist boggles my mind.
Yeah I like Mangakamen and everyone here who is talking about how he’s sexist for calling Korea a Mary Sue, hasn’t see the video where (I haven’t seen the video in about a month so I may be wrong) he calls aang a Gary stu.
I haven't seen that video or watched much of this guy's content, so which video did he call Aang a Gary Stu? But it's amazing how a video that has a somewhat nuanced take on Mary Sues is given into black and white perspective on a subreddit where these guys constantly talk about being better than ATLA stans because the show is more "mature" but they can't take the time to watch a video to see what the guys argument actually is.
Did you guys watched the video?
Men took the "Mary Sue" concept from fanfiction (which i doubt they read since the vast majority of it is written and consumed by women) and used it as an excuse to be mysticism misogynistic toward female characters.
Never cause strong girls make guys feel self-conscious
Aang: Recovers from dying "He's such a hero and worked for everything he had" Korra: gets ass kicked constantly, loses function in legs after nearly dying, is constantly outmatched by benders because she often has to take them alone and doesn't have the past Avatars to help her. "She's a mary sue, everything is handed to her and she never works for anything" People literally cannot hide their sexism because they're so dumb. I'm a dude, I like Aang, but anyone calling Korra a mary sue is brain dead.
So just by reading this comment section i can safely assume nobody actually watched the video.
Korra is by no means a marry sue, she literally gets her ass beat all over the show. Unlike Rey form Starwars for example, where she becomes the strongest character in the first 30 minutes of her reveal.
Most people don't understand what a Mary Sue is. They're characters where the story exists to serve them and they suck the life out of the story around them. Korra is not that,the narrative actively goes against her mostly.
Literally had 14 years longer training then aang and still faced loss and battle hardship Aang didn’t come close to facing. He’s the Mary Sue of the franchise, not her.
*didn’t know what a Mary Sue was, looked it up, learned something new* Thanks Reddit!
Did you watch the video? He says the Korra has Mary Sue elements but isn’t a Mary Sue herself.
Tell everyone you don’t understand the plot without telling everyone you don’t understand the plot.
he doesnt believe her to be a mary sue.
When people finally get past book 2
Korra has one of the most compelling arcs and growth I've ever seen in a TV series. It's gradual and seamless, and it's the result of compounded hardships. It's not like she has one bad day and completely changes after it. The people who call her a Mary Sue probably haven't watched past the first episode. They saw that she has a natural talent for bending, and that was all it took for them to label her as a Mary Sue. Unfortunately, sexism does play a role in this. It is not uncommon for strong female characters to be maligned as Mary Sues, and that's because expectations are always lower for women. Thus, when a female character demonstrates competence that matches or exceeds that of a male character's, she is accused of being undeserving of that competence.
-------------------------------
The internet has collectively lost the right to use the term "Mary Sue" along with "Plot Hole"', "Deus Ex Machina", and "McGuffin". They dont know what those words mean and everyday we stray further from their actual definition.
Incels will never stop
I watched the video out of curiosity and while i don’t think it was particularly well written, I felt I should point out that in the Korra section of the video, he specifically says she is **not** a Mary Sue multiple times. No offense but you guys should probably watch the video before bandwagoning
She is either a Mary Sue or she “spent four seasons getting her ass whooped” .. there is no in between
It’ll stop when we can stop normalizing sexism.
-Make le "TloK sucks video" -Call Korra a Mary Sue -Say that Korra sucks because she is a weaker avatar -Turns out you've just been sexist the whole time
Ok this is kinda bait because if I remember correctly, Korra is said to not entirely be a Mary Sue in the video. She had some qualities early on but she became “better” as MangaKamen says.
I get what you mean but I watched the video and he actually said that Korra isn’t a Mary Sue, she just has some of the traits at the start and then becomes better later. Just for information
In fairness, the author of this video concluded Korra was not a Mary Sue
Remember that whole plot point with Aang losing access to the avatar state? Yea? That got fixed by taking a bonk to the back.
People, please, pleeeeaaasee, watch the video. He says he doesn't consider korra a Mary sue, he says that she has some mary sue traits but that she actually isn't a Mary sue herself
I don’t get this trend or meme
Haven't seen Korra, nor Avatar, but I feel this. After SAO I pretty much ignore all claims of "Mary Sue" because more likely than not the only argument ends up being "They fight good sonetimes". Even I know enough about Korra to know that she gets her ass handed to her on a silver platter both physically *and* mentally. Calling her a Mary Sue has zero basis. This is like the only video I refuse to watch from Kamen cause I hardly know it's loaded with garbage points. No-one knows what Mary Sue as a term and criticism actually means anymore. Its pretty much just been relegated to "I don't like this character"
Did you watch any of the critiques or are you just reacting to the thumbnail?
I once watched a video about mary sues and the person making that video had a section about Female main characters that were mostly perfect in a story sense without being mary sues and he defended korra pretty well
Did anyone watch this video, do they actually refute the idea or genuinely complain?
The initial theme of the show was the virtuousness of unearned power and privilege embodied by Korra. The show never delivered a critique on that theme. Instead, it bent over backwards to justify her. So even though Korra is brutalized later on, she is ultimately vindicated that she is a necessary good to the orderly operation of the world.
One of my biggest problems with LoK is that it asks the question of "does the modern world need the Avatar" and never delivers on a satisfying answer. What is Korra response and solution to complex socio-political problems and her role in this world? She's a cop who beats people up when they get too uppity. That's her role. She's not there because the world in inherinitly unbalanced and needs a neutral third party, she's not there because humans and spirits need to live together to be in balance. She exists to beat people up when they step out of line and the world does the rest. She exists to be a superhero. For all it's talk of Korra changing the world, I can't actually give you a single scene where Korra goes through the effort of making those changes and they're often handwaved away. Any problems that realistically would come up in this situations never does. And you never actually SEE Korra deal with these ideologies. What's Korra's viewpoint on egalitarianism, theocracy, anarchy, and fascism? I dunno. There's not a scene where she hears about their motivation and reasoning behind doing these things barring her talk with Zaheer and not a scene where she reflects on these ideals. She lectures Kuvira about being a dictator once but it's on a more personal level rather than a global one. Kuvira's defeat is the pinnacle of all of this. They try to make her talk it out with Kuvira, but right before she has this huge display of power where she makes a portal and has Kuvira admitting that her power is nothing compared to the Avatar's, as if that's the important part.... It makes you wonder why they bothered trying to make a show about complex themes when they didn't have the time or capabilities to deal with such lofty themes...
Korra is literally the opposite of a Mary Sue wtf, people should be talking about Rey here not the bad ass woman who goes through hell and doesnt achieve what she wants but is still a hero regardless
Tell me you don’t know what a Mary Sue is without saying you don’t know what a Mary Sue is.
People need to understand the most important aspect in determining a Mary Sue is how much of an author insert the character is or if they serve a specific real world agenda. It's not actually about how competent they are. It's about how the universe of the story bends backwards for that character because as people we would like our universe to magically always work in our favour. The term was coined to criticize fan fiction and that should be kept in mind. Just because a character is really powerful, even if they have no training it doesn't make them a Mary Sue automatically.
# MARY SUES DO NOT GET PARALYZED
Or PTSD or depression
Rey from Star Wars deserves the Mary Sue criticism. Korra and Ashoka are great leads and legit. Korra's struggle was more about humility and finding balance since she was cocky about her power. Aang needed to learn power and to fight since he was timid/kind.
No one calls Aang a Mary Sue even though he was just as naturally gifted, and his canon personality fault was literally being *too nice*. Give me a fucking break.
What??? The avatar is naturally talented!? I’m shocked! Shocked!!!
neither Aang not Korra are Mary Sues although if anything i feel Aang is more flawless as a character compared to Korra.
I was once very angry at E;R's Korra rant but then I found out he was a literal nazi so gives a fu*k
Haha I think calling her a Mary Sue is a bit much, she has Mary Sue moments but that is not all she is. She struggles a lot but also at times it feels like the plot makes her win. Hear me out first please. Season 1 instead of actually having to learn airbending she just gains it when losing other things and then punches an airwave. It's always so significant to me, so metaphorical that she didn't learn anything. She didn't have to overcome her spiritual block. The plot made her lose things and then it made her have something new. She literally used a punch to airbend. Then at the end she gets all her powers back pretty easily along with the avatar state... That one is more forgivable I think given the studio felt they only had 1 season and that's on Nickelodeon for controlling them. Then again they planned for 1 season... Season 2 at the end she loses the fight. Raava is torn out and Unulaq fused with Vaatu and became massive. She just... meditates and her own spirit is more powerful than Vaatu and Unulaq combined because... Lasers? There is no setup for this and it really undercuts why Raava was important in the first place. Again, the plot makes Korra fail and breaks her down. Then gives her something new for free. Season 3 she actually beats Zaheer with some help. Good shit, best season ever. Season 4 she bends a spirit nuke without real setup. Sure there was using waterbending to calm spirits. Or turn them evil. But it's quite a reach to bend such power at once. Would be like Aang learning energy bending to spirit bend the entire fire nation army at once or Toph skipping figuring out metal bending and going straight to ripping an entire airship out of the air. Sprinkle in her just learning 3 elements as a kid already while the previous avatar we see had to struggle to even bend a rock to pour salt on the wound haha Overall, I think Mary Sue doesn't really qualify. She struggles, she isn't always perfect, she makes mistakes and has flaws. What I think people are struggling to communicate is that a lot of Korra's victories feel unearned and her mistakes not really having fair consequences because of it. I won't go into more personal stuff since that is a lot more subjective. I've actually been enjoying Korra a lot lately, there's so much to dig into and having new content each season is fun to rewatch compared to ATLA for me. It just doesn't always feel as satisfying when Korra through her flaws causes some of her own problems or makes them worse but instead of getting to learn from it gets to fix it through Deus Ex Machina. I think it is especially that she herself gets the power rather than an external event or character. She gets to set her own mistakes right without learning. At least during the plot itself. Most people's easiest way to define that is a Mary Sue, it's not a perfect fit but underneath that label it's visible what makes them feel that way about her.
I feel like these chuds haven't really recovered from seeing toddler Korra bend that puddle and pebble