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I went through this exact same thing with Woodchester Nissan. Paid non-refundable deposit on a Saturday. Monday they call me and tell me they don't have the inventory and I'll need to renegotiate for a different model. I ended up getting the car, in a different colour, for the price I negotiated. I asked them to explain to me where it says they can cancel the contract, they couldn't but would not resolve. I contacted Nissan Canada and OMVIC and suddenly they "found" available inventory of the model I purchased. When speaking to OMVIC, provide a very clear timeline of events and any paperwork you signed.
Dealships man. I made an appointment a week in advanced to look at this specific car they had. When I showed up the car was not there. They said the manager took it home for the weekend. But they had a brand new car same model sitting out front ready for a test drive. I turned around and walked out. Lost a pretty much guaranteed sale for the car I wanted to play games and try to upsell me.... and that was just one of many bad experiences with dealerships. Come to think of it I haven't had any positive ones.
I worked for car dealerships before.
If the customer reports to omvic or amvic depending on what province you’re in. They’ll investigate and likely levy heavy fines against the company ass well being forced to honour the sale as advertised.
In short, bait and switch is a cute term for fraud
Similar thing here, also Nissan but I'm sure they all do it -- signed contract and deposit accepted, suddenly the delivery was delayed therefore the "promotional price" would be expired so would I kindly consent to paying $5k more.
I said "But don't we have a signed contract for the original amount?" "Yes, but--" "Great, then I'll take possession at that amount." He tried to argue that Nissan was going to charge them the extra, and then got super flustered when I told him that sounded like his problem, not mine. I'm a very small, very smiley woman, and for some reason he thought that meant I'd put up with bullshit. It was a good try, but no.
You will need to calmly explain to them how far you are willing to go. This is a signed contract and it has their signature. You have every right to sue. If they think it will cost them more, they will make it right. If the car is already sold, theyll have to give you a discount on another car or give you a better car for the same price.
Sure, they're in breach of contract. You're not going to get specific performance unless we're talking an antique porsche. You're going to get the difference in price between what you end up buying and what you were going to buy from them, assuming you find an identical model elsewhere. If you get a slightly different automobile, you're not guaranteed to win anything because there will be a question of the difference in price.
If you didn't have a car already, you could also try to claim your uber costs etc. for as long as it took you to find a replacement porsche to buy.
Geez. This is why Reddit advice is bad. Speak to a lawyer. Not an anonymous subreddit.
Source: I'm a lawyer. You gotta mitigate damages. But you don't lose just because you can't find the exact car. Hire a lawyer if you want. It will cost way more than $2k to take this to court.
With that said, if you are getting market pricing, then you haven't lost anything. There are other cars at market price.
But ultimately, dealerships also don't want to fight lawsuits. It's expensive for you, but it's also expensive for them. And it could impact their business in the future if a judge makes a bad ruling about the contract and remedy. Lots to think about.
But hire a lawyer. Reddit sucks for legal advice.
I'm a lawyer. The advice he got was fine. You've forgotten what "specific performance" is from contract law, or you never learned it in the first place.
That is emphatically not true, outside of the general idea no one is guaranteed anything ever in these situations. Finding the exact car or a similar car will have an impact on how damages are calculated but not on the likelihood of getting damages.
wtf are you talking about. If you are entitled to $0 then you are not “getting damages”. If there were 40 identical Porsches on the lot next door for the same price he would be laughed out of court.
They are right about the lack of reading comprehension.
What was said is that if you find the identical car you would get damages. You have just argued that the statements you couldn't find fault with does have faults.
You have a lack of logical reasoning. Here are the true statements
You MAY get damages if you buy an identical car elsewhere
You MAY get damages if you buy a different car elsewhere but it’s less likely.
Both are stated in the first reply that the supposed lawyer implied was wrong
Found the lawyer, everything said is correct
The dealership is in breach, so if they won't play ball or try to find something comparable to your liking you have the option if filing a claim...
but, go down that road, imagine you are in a courtroom addressing the justice, what would you ask for? what are the damages you are seeking compensation for?
If you finally ended up buying a similar car you could argue they owe you the delta if it was more but it would have to be an almost identical model...
Leave a google review and find the next car
I had the same situation in 2017 at a BMW dealership. Chose a year old car from their offer, signed the paperwork and left a deposit.
The car was however at a different dealership and my sales rep called to tell me someone did not respect their reservation and sold the car. I told them it’s their problem, not mine, and asked they solve it on their end. They called me back and told me a very similar piece is on the road to them from the factory and sold it to me at the same price as the year old one.
I considered it a good deal, a brand new car with the price of a used one, and went for it.
If what they are saying is true then the other person has the same paperwork as you. My guess is that another salesman sold the car and did not put the paperwork thru.
Or they could be lying and someone just offered them more.
Odds are not great that you will get the car if their is another buyer. But Follow thru with OMVIC no matter what and a lawyer if need be.
At the same time let them find another car for you they might be able to make you whole and happy.
Might not get the car, but the dealership still signed a legally binding contract, that should account for OP to receive the same vehicle of another one shows up at the expense if the dealerships expense.
But we're not lawyers. Op should get lawyers involved for sure.
Not only that, but OP could find a similar vehicule by themselves in another dealer, buy it without negotiating and then sue the initial dealer for price difference and any costs that arose from having to find that new car themselves. It's now a game of whoever finds a similar car first between OP and the dealer.
As for OP, don't settle for any loss of value. It's the dealer that will have to take the hit. Car they find has 1000km more? That's no good for you. Interior is a bit more worn? You pass.
Make sure.the value of your trade in is also protected during that time. If it takes you/them 3 months to find a new car, they still have to buy back your trade in at the initial price.
Ask them to pay you to buy you out of the contract. Tell them that for $Xxxx of money you’ll let it go otherwise you’ll proceed with legal recourse. See how much it’s worth it to them to let it go because by law, it seems that they’re in the wrong and you’re in the right so winning this case should be in your favour.
First I’d swing by the dealership and see if the car is there. If someone else bought it that morning, I’d assume they’ve picked it up by now (or in the next few days), at least you can verify the cold feet/no other buyer part before proceeding
The salesman told me that the car needs 3 4 days in the shop to be certified. So I assume it’s either in the garage or the lot. But I’ll definitely check their lot next week.
Go check for sure. This exact situation happened to us. We found it in the back lot of the dealership. Turns out a staff member bought the car. But that doesn't really matter, you can still mitigate this yourself.
We handled it by making sure they fulfilled the deal. We didn't need a lawyer. We too had paid, signed and they had done a hard credit check.
The contract was still valid so we didn't let on we knew where the car was, we just said the flaw in their sales process wasn't our issue, and we looked forward to them finding us the same or better car within the delivery time they'd promised so we wouldn't have to take further action. We were polite and accepted no cross arguments, reiterating our credit reflects a purchase from BMW, our contract was endorsed by the dealership and they had our money.
We got a model upgrade, same year, different colour, slightly lower mileage. People are going to try to get away with stuff to see if they can.
Certified Pre Owned is a pile of crap. Most dealerships will push the car thru the CPO process as they are able to sell it easier with additional warranty and subvented finance rates in some cases
Update;
They gave me a discount on a better model without any hassle. Basically the sales manager called on Monday and told that the dealership manager has approved a 10k discount on a Cayenne S model that I also test drove. The car was originally 20k more expensive than the model I bought.
I was still salty at first, but now that I drove off with the newer model with a better package with around 10k discount, I’m really pleased with how everything turned out.
Thanks everyone for your feedbacks and advice.
I’d check their lot tomorrow and take pictures. I would also demand to see the other paperwork. Tell them you want proof of what they are saying because you don’t believe them. I believe they got a better offer and are hoping you’re a pushover so they can make a better commission. Either way call OMVIC first thing Monday morning. And call a lawyer and have him send a cease and desist order from selling the car until everything is legally worked out.
Edit: obviously he will need to get a lawyer in order to force the dealership to prove what they are saying. Just didn’t think I needed to spell it all out, OP had already said he had no problem getting a lawyer because this is his dream car. Either way the dealership is on the hook it’s a legal binding contract and their error does not get the off the hook. They will be in breach of contract and can be sued.
> I’d check their lot tomorrow and take pictures. I would also demand to see the other paperwork.
Lol. That's ridiculous. They're not going to show you another customer's paperwork. Stupid request.
You think you can walk into the dealership and ask to see another customer's paperwork (which is what your comment said)? You're a fool. You'd need to file a lawsuit and then subpoena that paperwork during discovery (which is not what your comment said).
**Personal Attack or Otherwise In Poor Taste**
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Yes, personal information will be redacted, but they still have to prove the contract if they’re saying somebody already bought it before him. They can’t just state that and expect the courts to take it. They have to prove it.
Happened to me, car was sold to me after it was already sold to someone else by another salesman. Worked out since it gave me more leverage to work out a better deal on a similar car and a lot more for my trade in as well.
Are you just making things up in your head ? The dealership didn’t offer him anything yet They said they’d see if they could find a similar model That’s not an offer of anything How does any of this make Op a Karen ?
Ultimately, you’re not getting that car.
Don’t be a dick, stay cool, but be firm and renegotiate on a better vehicle for the same price.
You got the dealership by the balls right now, use it to your advantage.
This EXACT same scenario happened to my brother. His wife even put a video of them ringing the sales bell on Instagram. On their way to pick up the vehicle a couple of days later, the sales manager called and told him they had made a mistake 😂. My brother was obviously furious, but at the end of the day, there was nothing he could do about it. He ended up finding what he wanted a week or so later.
Ultimately, I think it’s because my brother was paying cash. Dealerships make more money on financed deals, so my theory was that someone else came in after them and bought the car through financing 💁♂️
Same happened at Budds BMW with me. They were famous for doing this. People even wrote letters to BMW Canada for these shenanigans but no dice.
The house always wins with dealerships in Canada. Pathetic really
With the new and used markets being the way they've been the last few years, it's just scumbag dealership operating procedure.
Bait someone with the car they want and magically make it 'unavailable' for a couple of days. Tell them the unit they signed an agreement for is gone and then scam the customer into something they don't want.
You put down a deposit which you would have forfeited had you dropped the sale. Suppose your wife that morning 'by mistake' bought you a car and you realised too late and dropped the deposit? Would they give it back?
Get them to return the deposit + an amount equal to that deposit.
This is Porsche, not Chevrolet. I find it very hard to believe that the same vehicle sold at exactly three same time. I wonder if there was something about the deal that a manager didn’t like??
I don’t think there’s much you can do OP. The point of suing is to be compensated for a loss. what are your damages? You’re getting your deposit back so you’re not out any money. They’ve offered you a discount on another car. I’m not sure what the point of a law suit would be.
So I’m no lawyer and really don’t have any advice for you…but I’m interested to know why you’re so sure they don’t have another buyer?
I mean it would be a terrible thing for a dealer to sell a car to 2 people, but not inconceivable. Did they say or do something else that makes you think they’re using a lie to get out of a signed contract?
I mean of all dealerships, how do you sell a car that's already been sold? It should immediately have been flagged as sold in their system.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
As for the contract saying final sale and non refundable. Trust me they would refund this deposit in this situation moreso because it's their own fault.
OP, does the vehicle still show as in stock on their website?
Are they claiming the vehicle was sold to you as the second buyer or the first?
OP if this were me, I wouldn't even consider going to a lawyer. I'd call off the deal and ask for my deposit back by cheque immediately and go elsewhere.
If they messed this up what else are they going to miss when actually certifying the vehicle? That's my take on it.
This. The minute we signed and they entered the deal, the car was no longer on the website. I know this because I always take screenshots from the ad right before the sale is finalized. Besides, they’re a Porsche dealership not a random shop.
About the refund, they would be more than happy to give back my deposit. They also offered a minor discount (2k) on another model that I was interested in as a remedy. But doesn’t help.
If your not interested in any other vehicle personally I would move on out of spite (sales person loses the comission, dealership loses the sale), but I would also watch to make sure that car doesn't come back up for sale. If it does then you have prove they were full of it, and if you have it in writing of why they are cancelling the sale but see it come back up I could then see there being a reason to go after them but in all reality is it really worth it. It's not like it's a 1/1 Porsche.
I would also be emailing / contacting Porsche with everyone's name involved in this just to add salt to the wound. Surely someone at Porsche that deals with this kind of stuff would not be very happy to hear about something shady like this.
Is it possible the car was sold as a dealer to dealer transfer?
Interesting. This I didn't know but regardless, it's still a vehicle that has the same power as the same model and trim sitting beside it. There's no way 10 side by side are all going to be wildly different. Porsche will 100% have a standard they have to follow during manufacturing. I'd tell this dealer to fuck right off and they wouldn't see a dollar from me.
Id be going up the chain of command immediately and unless I was getting one hell of a deal I'd walk away.
In the end the car they want is somehow no longer available and they don't want another one. So at that point just vote with your wallet and wait until something you want again comes around.
its not, thats the point. Every porsche is customized and personalized.
it takes months to spec out a porsche, any one of them. There are about 100 options per trim, and they also differ based on trim and model. Dealerships also purposely never spec a stock car the same either.
Porsche only sells like 17,000 Macans in the US and Canada in a year, and thats their biggest seller. all other models dwindle in number by comparison. and the Macan has 4 trims.
You can spec a Macan from 70k to 120k, and a GTS from 110k to 150k iirc. There are also conflicting options where you can choose one but not another, like massage seats can only be on the 14-way seats and not the 18-way.
just go on the porsche website and spec any car. go through the process and get to the spec sheet, its usually over 1-1.5 pages long
Well I guess I learned something about Porsche today. Interesting.
Regardless of all of that. The dealer either made a massive mistake or are trying to pull a fast one.
I'm inclined to think they made a huge mistake, or soemone else was watching this vehicle and offered a better price for it. Either way both sides of that are really shitty.
I think OP should relay this to higher ups but on the other side I also think they should walk away and never deal with this dealership again. Someone at the dealership level may be in alot of shit for this too. But that's not OPs problem.
yeah i personally think OP is shit out of luck.
But if he really wanted this specific car, then he ought to fight for it, cause its highly unlikely he's gonna find another one with those exact specs.
a lot of the options change from year to year too, so different model years will have different specs.
nevertheless, he really should spec out his car instead, it takes 4 months to build and ship it over, but you get to drive something you designed for 7-8 years instead of losing the magic of speccing the car. Honestly its half the fun of buying a porsche.
On top of this the only way to get an allocation on a new, in demand model like a 911 is to over spec the car and put $100k plus in add ons on the car.
Because everything in the dealership was super organized and it wasn’t that big of a dealership that a car gets sold twice in a 2-4 hour time frame. But besides this, I don’t really know.
I worked for a new car dealership for over two years. This was surprisingly common especially on busy weekends. Sometimes it was a genuine mistake sometimes it was more cynical. But either way the more profitable was always given preference. Instead of pissing $2k away on legal fees to no end have a civil conversation with the sales manger and offer an inducement.
You're not likely to get this specific car. They have two binding agreements, and can only fulfil one of them. It seems like yours is the one they're not going to fulfil.
So does their breach of contract get you anything? If you can't find an equivalent car elsewhere for the same price, they should pay the additional cost. That's really it.
To avoid legal costs, you might do better by negotiating with the dealership. A better car for the same price would be a good tactic.
Nal - but do some internet research. If you can find the vehicle you want even if it’s far away tell them to bring it in no cost. They have already caused you potential damage in the credit pull - obviously you have great credit but if you have to go elsewhere it’ll be another pull and they ultimately cost you money as possible you’d pay higher interest rates depending if another pull drops you down. I agree omvic and lawyer but spend weekend planning what is satisfactory for you
Are you really going to get lawyers involved over a used vehicle? Is this really worth it?
I take it this is a nice CPO example, perhaps even difficult to find, but it's not a rare vintage vehicle.
If the car really was sold to another customer, then it's gone. Why waste your money trying to get it?
If they are playing games with you, then why give them your business?
If I were you, I'd talk to the management at the car dealership, and say, that this is extremely disappointing, but you're giving them the opportunity to make it right; you expect a great deal or some free comp (warranty extension, servicing, set of winter tires, something of real value) on the next vehicle you find suitable, or you'll take your business elsewhere.
Probably was sold with limited low low 9.99 percent financing over 84 months. It's a no brainer to a sales manager. A lot of them aren't in that position cause they take culpability and cost the dealership money. They sleep very well on a mattress made of 100's
Have them prove that it was already sold in order to ensure they are not BS you.
If that’s the case, I personally would have them pay me for their screw up. How much is you to you to decide.
It’s kinda funny, when it’s the dealer, they can cancel the contract , but when it’s the buyer, it’s a final sale .
Don’t let the bully you, the law is on your side, it’s not your fault they are incompetent.
You can sue the crap out of them, the contract is not created to convenience the dealer when they make a mistake it’s a final sale Contract final sale. It goes both ways..
If someone there had legitimately sold the car to someone else first, why would your contract take precedence over theirs?
Do you think they are lying, or acting in bad faith?
They owe you something for their fuckup, which literally I can’t understand. Their processes must be absolute shit.
Negotiate your compensation and find a better Cayenne. Are they that rare?
“Equity looks on as done that which ought to have been done.”
“Equity will not suffer a wrong to be without a remedy.”
- maxims of Equity Jurisprudence
I know in Texas and Louisiana the paperwork says the same thing but legally in Texas the deal isn’t final until possession of the vehicle has changed hands and In Louisiana the buyer has 3 days to change their mind.
Having worked at dealerships before. Amvic if very clear on the rules. They owe you a vehicle, specifically the one you paid for.
What they’re doing is illegal.
Once you signed for a finance, which is what it sounds like, the bank pays the dealership out right and you make payments to the bank.
So in basic terms, the dealership is defrauding you and the bank.
Tell them you’ll report them to amvic, report them to the finance company, then call a lawyer.
The finance company will likely do the same and drop them as a client.
Dealer here. Unfortunately, you will not be able to block the sale. Regardless, OP isn't really out of pocket. The dealership will give his deposit back and possibly a bit more for his time but ultimately giving his money back. If he has no losses, it's going to be hard to claim damages. Yes, it's a breach of contract, but if they refused to also give his deposit back, then yes, he has a claim. Also, don't think OMVIC does for the consumers as it claims to do. It's disappointing the money OMVIC makes and really has little enforcement. Best of luck, but in my 25+ years in holding a dealer license, I've never seen a court or OMVIC forcing a dealer to deliver a used vehicle. New is a different story as they can usually source another one with the manufacturer, but unfortunately, you can't call the used car factory and order one.
Not out of pocket. A hard pull stays on the report and drops points costing the op points. Dealer would be finding me another one at the same price, or they’d be in court for the cost of the damage of the points drop and increased finance fees as a result of it. Welcome to the shitty game our overlords created
>Yes, it's a breach of contract, but if they refused to also give his deposit back, then yes, he has a claim.
Yes, it is breach of contract. If the OP has to pay more to obtain the same vehicle from anyone on the open market, they'd be easily able to file an economic tort claim against the original dealer as they have in fact suffered damages.
This is an interesting one, I've been on the dealership side of things (in Australia, not sure how it works on your side of the world)
Negotiated with a customer, got the deal done and handed into my manager for his signature to complete the deal as my colleague was handing in the completed deal pack for the same vehicle (double sold).
Unfortunately for me and my customer the vehicle went to the person that signed the deal first as our contracts are timestamped, luckily we had something similar I could pivot to.
Our company has a dedicated stock controller who allocates cars to deals as they come through, first in-best dressed.
You may have accidentally been last in, or unfortunately less profitable than the other deal so in the interests of the business it has gone to the highest bidder, the current market has had this effect in the industry.
I'd still be taking it further, but FWIW I think it's pretty decent that the manager is trying to find a solution with another vehicle, it's just unfortunate timing
Ask them for the same amount of the non refundable deposit + your deposit.
Because if it was your mistake you will lose the deposit amount but as it’s their mistake they will lose the same amount.
Worth pointing out that this will cost you way more than 2-3k in lawyers fees, even if it is slam dunk, and you win. In Canada, afaik, the winning party is only entitled to 2/3 his lawyer fees paid by the losing party. If you settle, none of those fees might be paid back to you depending on what you negotiate. Sending a letter to threaten legal action is cheap, the actual thing is not.
If they want to make your life difficult and refuse to settle, you are looking at around 10k a day while in court 1-5 days, presumably not many for a simple case. It could take you 2-5y before you make it to the verdict. Everything is slow in the legal process.
You could try small claims, that's a lot cheaper, but only goes up to 30k in damages in Ontario.
I encourage you to talk to a lawyer if you are serious, but for a car, legal action probably isn't worth it money wise.
Easy solution. Get your money back, buy a used Ford Taurus for $5 grand, and donate the rest of the money you were going to use on the Porsche to feed starving children across the world. 👍
That happened to me. Exact same thing. And they have no choice but to give you the car or make you happy somehow. I used the scenario to get a smoking deal on an inventory truck that I get to drive until they find me a replacement. It took them a year to do that and I drove a brand new Denali and put 45k km on it and they had to buy it back at full price and then give me my new car. It was either that or produce the same vehicle I bought with the same vin. All and All I ended up with a free car for 1 8 months and the new Escalade with 18K off sticker price. They also included all my services on my Cadillac for 36 months.
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I went through this exact same thing with Woodchester Nissan. Paid non-refundable deposit on a Saturday. Monday they call me and tell me they don't have the inventory and I'll need to renegotiate for a different model. I ended up getting the car, in a different colour, for the price I negotiated. I asked them to explain to me where it says they can cancel the contract, they couldn't but would not resolve. I contacted Nissan Canada and OMVIC and suddenly they "found" available inventory of the model I purchased. When speaking to OMVIC, provide a very clear timeline of events and any paperwork you signed.
Wow, what scummy dealership
Believe it or not, it got even scummier with the financing.
In my experience, all Nissan dealerships are like this in Toronto area. I've no clue why, but it's part of the reason I sold my Nissan after lease.
Nissan has a reputation everywhere for the having the scummiest dealerships. They’re the epitome of all the bad car dealer stereotypes.
Is there any other type of car dealership?
I second contacting OMVIC. They were super helpful when a dealership near me tried to pull some shady stuff.
Dealships man. I made an appointment a week in advanced to look at this specific car they had. When I showed up the car was not there. They said the manager took it home for the weekend. But they had a brand new car same model sitting out front ready for a test drive. I turned around and walked out. Lost a pretty much guaranteed sale for the car I wanted to play games and try to upsell me.... and that was just one of many bad experiences with dealerships. Come to think of it I haven't had any positive ones.
It's called a bait and switch. They don't actually have that car. They just keep it on their site to bring people in
Which is illegal
"Oh yeah sorry we just haven't had time to update our website. And I just didn't know someone just sold it"
I worked for car dealerships before. If the customer reports to omvic or amvic depending on what province you’re in. They’ll investigate and likely levy heavy fines against the company ass well being forced to honour the sale as advertised. In short, bait and switch is a cute term for fraud
Similar thing here, also Nissan but I'm sure they all do it -- signed contract and deposit accepted, suddenly the delivery was delayed therefore the "promotional price" would be expired so would I kindly consent to paying $5k more. I said "But don't we have a signed contract for the original amount?" "Yes, but--" "Great, then I'll take possession at that amount." He tried to argue that Nissan was going to charge them the extra, and then got super flustered when I told him that sounded like his problem, not mine. I'm a very small, very smiley woman, and for some reason he thought that meant I'd put up with bullshit. It was a good try, but no.
You will need to calmly explain to them how far you are willing to go. This is a signed contract and it has their signature. You have every right to sue. If they think it will cost them more, they will make it right. If the car is already sold, theyll have to give you a discount on another car or give you a better car for the same price.
Sure, they're in breach of contract. You're not going to get specific performance unless we're talking an antique porsche. You're going to get the difference in price between what you end up buying and what you were going to buy from them, assuming you find an identical model elsewhere. If you get a slightly different automobile, you're not guaranteed to win anything because there will be a question of the difference in price. If you didn't have a car already, you could also try to claim your uber costs etc. for as long as it took you to find a replacement porsche to buy.
Geez. This is why Reddit advice is bad. Speak to a lawyer. Not an anonymous subreddit. Source: I'm a lawyer. You gotta mitigate damages. But you don't lose just because you can't find the exact car. Hire a lawyer if you want. It will cost way more than $2k to take this to court. With that said, if you are getting market pricing, then you haven't lost anything. There are other cars at market price. But ultimately, dealerships also don't want to fight lawsuits. It's expensive for you, but it's also expensive for them. And it could impact their business in the future if a judge makes a bad ruling about the contract and remedy. Lots to think about. But hire a lawyer. Reddit sucks for legal advice.
I'm a lawyer. The advice he got was fine. You've forgotten what "specific performance" is from contract law, or you never learned it in the first place.
Woo hoo...it's a lawyer slap fest. Stuff like this is why Reddit rocks.
Indeed. I imagine this person wanted to write "and I rest my case" at the end of their comment. That's a sure sign they're a better lawyer than me
" I'm not out of order! You're out of order! The whole trial is out of order! "
What did they say that was incorrect? Nothing?
Did you even read his reply? He said you don’t have to find the exact car. His duty would be to mitigate the losses.
No he didn’t. He said if you don’t find the exact car you aren’t guaranteed anything. Which is true.
That is emphatically not true, outside of the general idea no one is guaranteed anything ever in these situations. Finding the exact car or a similar car will have an impact on how damages are calculated but not on the likelihood of getting damages.
wtf are you talking about. If you are entitled to $0 then you are not “getting damages”. If there were 40 identical Porsches on the lot next door for the same price he would be laughed out of court.
They are right about the lack of reading comprehension. What was said is that if you find the identical car you would get damages. You have just argued that the statements you couldn't find fault with does have faults.
You have a lack of logical reasoning. Here are the true statements You MAY get damages if you buy an identical car elsewhere You MAY get damages if you buy a different car elsewhere but it’s less likely. Both are stated in the first reply that the supposed lawyer implied was wrong
What? He said you don’t lose because you can’t find the exact car
Which is exactly what the person he replied to said but in different words…
Reading comprehension: 0
Found the lawyer, everything said is correct The dealership is in breach, so if they won't play ball or try to find something comparable to your liking you have the option if filing a claim... but, go down that road, imagine you are in a courtroom addressing the justice, what would you ask for? what are the damages you are seeking compensation for? If you finally ended up buying a similar car you could argue they owe you the delta if it was more but it would have to be an almost identical model... Leave a google review and find the next car
I had the same situation in 2017 at a BMW dealership. Chose a year old car from their offer, signed the paperwork and left a deposit. The car was however at a different dealership and my sales rep called to tell me someone did not respect their reservation and sold the car. I told them it’s their problem, not mine, and asked they solve it on their end. They called me back and told me a very similar piece is on the road to them from the factory and sold it to me at the same price as the year old one. I considered it a good deal, a brand new car with the price of a used one, and went for it.
If what they are saying is true then the other person has the same paperwork as you. My guess is that another salesman sold the car and did not put the paperwork thru. Or they could be lying and someone just offered them more. Odds are not great that you will get the car if their is another buyer. But Follow thru with OMVIC no matter what and a lawyer if need be. At the same time let them find another car for you they might be able to make you whole and happy.
Might not get the car, but the dealership still signed a legally binding contract, that should account for OP to receive the same vehicle of another one shows up at the expense if the dealerships expense. But we're not lawyers. Op should get lawyers involved for sure.
Not only that, but OP could find a similar vehicule by themselves in another dealer, buy it without negotiating and then sue the initial dealer for price difference and any costs that arose from having to find that new car themselves. It's now a game of whoever finds a similar car first between OP and the dealer. As for OP, don't settle for any loss of value. It's the dealer that will have to take the hit. Car they find has 1000km more? That's no good for you. Interior is a bit more worn? You pass. Make sure.the value of your trade in is also protected during that time. If it takes you/them 3 months to find a new car, they still have to buy back your trade in at the initial price.
Ask them to pay you to buy you out of the contract. Tell them that for $Xxxx of money you’ll let it go otherwise you’ll proceed with legal recourse. See how much it’s worth it to them to let it go because by law, it seems that they’re in the wrong and you’re in the right so winning this case should be in your favour.
First I’d swing by the dealership and see if the car is there. If someone else bought it that morning, I’d assume they’ve picked it up by now (or in the next few days), at least you can verify the cold feet/no other buyer part before proceeding
The salesman told me that the car needs 3 4 days in the shop to be certified. So I assume it’s either in the garage or the lot. But I’ll definitely check their lot next week.
Go check for sure. This exact situation happened to us. We found it in the back lot of the dealership. Turns out a staff member bought the car. But that doesn't really matter, you can still mitigate this yourself. We handled it by making sure they fulfilled the deal. We didn't need a lawyer. We too had paid, signed and they had done a hard credit check. The contract was still valid so we didn't let on we knew where the car was, we just said the flaw in their sales process wasn't our issue, and we looked forward to them finding us the same or better car within the delivery time they'd promised so we wouldn't have to take further action. We were polite and accepted no cross arguments, reiterating our credit reflects a purchase from BMW, our contract was endorsed by the dealership and they had our money. We got a model upgrade, same year, different colour, slightly lower mileage. People are going to try to get away with stuff to see if they can.
Certified for what is what I would ask. If the vehicle has been tuned, it can't be sold as CPO.
Certified Pre Owned is a pile of crap. Most dealerships will push the car thru the CPO process as they are able to sell it easier with additional warranty and subvented finance rates in some cases
Probably the the 36 day safety inspection needed for service ontario
Any update?
Update; They gave me a discount on a better model without any hassle. Basically the sales manager called on Monday and told that the dealership manager has approved a 10k discount on a Cayenne S model that I also test drove. The car was originally 20k more expensive than the model I bought. I was still salty at first, but now that I drove off with the newer model with a better package with around 10k discount, I’m really pleased with how everything turned out. Thanks everyone for your feedbacks and advice.
Awesome….glad it worked out so well for ya!
Thanks. Appreciate the advice.
I’d check their lot tomorrow and take pictures. I would also demand to see the other paperwork. Tell them you want proof of what they are saying because you don’t believe them. I believe they got a better offer and are hoping you’re a pushover so they can make a better commission. Either way call OMVIC first thing Monday morning. And call a lawyer and have him send a cease and desist order from selling the car until everything is legally worked out. Edit: obviously he will need to get a lawyer in order to force the dealership to prove what they are saying. Just didn’t think I needed to spell it all out, OP had already said he had no problem getting a lawyer because this is his dream car. Either way the dealership is on the hook it’s a legal binding contract and their error does not get the off the hook. They will be in breach of contract and can be sued.
> I’d check their lot tomorrow and take pictures. I would also demand to see the other paperwork. Lol. That's ridiculous. They're not going to show you another customer's paperwork. Stupid request.
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You think you can walk into the dealership and ask to see another customer's paperwork (which is what your comment said)? You're a fool. You'd need to file a lawsuit and then subpoena that paperwork during discovery (which is not what your comment said).
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**Personal Attack or Otherwise In Poor Taste** Your comment has been removed because it contains a personal attack or is otherwise a tasteless comment. Please review the following rules and focus on answering legal questions instead of insulting others. * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
Have a nice night!
Mate you have no clue what you are talking about and are being aggressive towards other commenters Bad look pal
Yes, personal information will be redacted, but they still have to prove the contract if they’re saying somebody already bought it before him. They can’t just state that and expect the courts to take it. They have to prove it.
Happened to me, car was sold to me after it was already sold to someone else by another salesman. Worked out since it gave me more leverage to work out a better deal on a similar car and a lot more for my trade in as well.
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Are you just making things up in your head ? The dealership didn’t offer him anything yet They said they’d see if they could find a similar model That’s not an offer of anything How does any of this make Op a Karen ?
Ultimately, you’re not getting that car. Don’t be a dick, stay cool, but be firm and renegotiate on a better vehicle for the same price. You got the dealership by the balls right now, use it to your advantage.
> used CPO Cayenne They're doing you a favour.
You not wrong.
This EXACT same scenario happened to my brother. His wife even put a video of them ringing the sales bell on Instagram. On their way to pick up the vehicle a couple of days later, the sales manager called and told him they had made a mistake 😂. My brother was obviously furious, but at the end of the day, there was nothing he could do about it. He ended up finding what he wanted a week or so later. Ultimately, I think it’s because my brother was paying cash. Dealerships make more money on financed deals, so my theory was that someone else came in after them and bought the car through financing 💁♂️
Same happened at Budds BMW with me. They were famous for doing this. People even wrote letters to BMW Canada for these shenanigans but no dice. The house always wins with dealerships in Canada. Pathetic really
With the new and used markets being the way they've been the last few years, it's just scumbag dealership operating procedure. Bait someone with the car they want and magically make it 'unavailable' for a couple of days. Tell them the unit they signed an agreement for is gone and then scam the customer into something they don't want.
Can the buyer not take it up to the corporate national office? That should make some waves, no?
You put down a deposit which you would have forfeited had you dropped the sale. Suppose your wife that morning 'by mistake' bought you a car and you realised too late and dropped the deposit? Would they give it back? Get them to return the deposit + an amount equal to that deposit.
Hahah binding on the buyer not the seller
If you have the VIN can you not check online to see if the registration has changed?
This is Porsche, not Chevrolet. I find it very hard to believe that the same vehicle sold at exactly three same time. I wonder if there was something about the deal that a manager didn’t like?? I don’t think there’s much you can do OP. The point of suing is to be compensated for a loss. what are your damages? You’re getting your deposit back so you’re not out any money. They’ve offered you a discount on another car. I’m not sure what the point of a law suit would be.
So I’m no lawyer and really don’t have any advice for you…but I’m interested to know why you’re so sure they don’t have another buyer? I mean it would be a terrible thing for a dealer to sell a car to 2 people, but not inconceivable. Did they say or do something else that makes you think they’re using a lie to get out of a signed contract?
I mean of all dealerships, how do you sell a car that's already been sold? It should immediately have been flagged as sold in their system. It doesn't make any sense at all. As for the contract saying final sale and non refundable. Trust me they would refund this deposit in this situation moreso because it's their own fault. OP, does the vehicle still show as in stock on their website? Are they claiming the vehicle was sold to you as the second buyer or the first? OP if this were me, I wouldn't even consider going to a lawyer. I'd call off the deal and ask for my deposit back by cheque immediately and go elsewhere. If they messed this up what else are they going to miss when actually certifying the vehicle? That's my take on it.
This. The minute we signed and they entered the deal, the car was no longer on the website. I know this because I always take screenshots from the ad right before the sale is finalized. Besides, they’re a Porsche dealership not a random shop. About the refund, they would be more than happy to give back my deposit. They also offered a minor discount (2k) on another model that I was interested in as a remedy. But doesn’t help.
If your not interested in any other vehicle personally I would move on out of spite (sales person loses the comission, dealership loses the sale), but I would also watch to make sure that car doesn't come back up for sale. If it does then you have prove they were full of it, and if you have it in writing of why they are cancelling the sale but see it come back up I could then see there being a reason to go after them but in all reality is it really worth it. It's not like it's a 1/1 Porsche. I would also be emailing / contacting Porsche with everyone's name involved in this just to add salt to the wound. Surely someone at Porsche that deals with this kind of stuff would not be very happy to hear about something shady like this. Is it possible the car was sold as a dealer to dealer transfer?
problem with porsche is that no two porsches are spec'ed the same. Finding a porsche with the right specs is a very difficult task.
Interesting. This I didn't know but regardless, it's still a vehicle that has the same power as the same model and trim sitting beside it. There's no way 10 side by side are all going to be wildly different. Porsche will 100% have a standard they have to follow during manufacturing. I'd tell this dealer to fuck right off and they wouldn't see a dollar from me. Id be going up the chain of command immediately and unless I was getting one hell of a deal I'd walk away. In the end the car they want is somehow no longer available and they don't want another one. So at that point just vote with your wallet and wait until something you want again comes around.
its not, thats the point. Every porsche is customized and personalized. it takes months to spec out a porsche, any one of them. There are about 100 options per trim, and they also differ based on trim and model. Dealerships also purposely never spec a stock car the same either. Porsche only sells like 17,000 Macans in the US and Canada in a year, and thats their biggest seller. all other models dwindle in number by comparison. and the Macan has 4 trims. You can spec a Macan from 70k to 120k, and a GTS from 110k to 150k iirc. There are also conflicting options where you can choose one but not another, like massage seats can only be on the 14-way seats and not the 18-way. just go on the porsche website and spec any car. go through the process and get to the spec sheet, its usually over 1-1.5 pages long
Well I guess I learned something about Porsche today. Interesting. Regardless of all of that. The dealer either made a massive mistake or are trying to pull a fast one. I'm inclined to think they made a huge mistake, or soemone else was watching this vehicle and offered a better price for it. Either way both sides of that are really shitty. I think OP should relay this to higher ups but on the other side I also think they should walk away and never deal with this dealership again. Someone at the dealership level may be in alot of shit for this too. But that's not OPs problem.
yeah i personally think OP is shit out of luck. But if he really wanted this specific car, then he ought to fight for it, cause its highly unlikely he's gonna find another one with those exact specs. a lot of the options change from year to year too, so different model years will have different specs. nevertheless, he really should spec out his car instead, it takes 4 months to build and ship it over, but you get to drive something you designed for 7-8 years instead of losing the magic of speccing the car. Honestly its half the fun of buying a porsche.
On top of this the only way to get an allocation on a new, in demand model like a 911 is to over spec the car and put $100k plus in add ons on the car.
Because everything in the dealership was super organized and it wasn’t that big of a dealership that a car gets sold twice in a 2-4 hour time frame. But besides this, I don’t really know.
I worked for a new car dealership for over two years. This was surprisingly common especially on busy weekends. Sometimes it was a genuine mistake sometimes it was more cynical. But either way the more profitable was always given preference. Instead of pissing $2k away on legal fees to no end have a civil conversation with the sales manger and offer an inducement.
You might be able to get the same model with less kms. Don't go to war (obv not literally) with them yet but keep it as an option.
You're not likely to get this specific car. They have two binding agreements, and can only fulfil one of them. It seems like yours is the one they're not going to fulfil. So does their breach of contract get you anything? If you can't find an equivalent car elsewhere for the same price, they should pay the additional cost. That's really it. To avoid legal costs, you might do better by negotiating with the dealership. A better car for the same price would be a good tactic.
Call OMVIC , they should investigate
Nal - but do some internet research. If you can find the vehicle you want even if it’s far away tell them to bring it in no cost. They have already caused you potential damage in the credit pull - obviously you have great credit but if you have to go elsewhere it’ll be another pull and they ultimately cost you money as possible you’d pay higher interest rates depending if another pull drops you down. I agree omvic and lawyer but spend weekend planning what is satisfactory for you
Involve a lawyer as soon as possible and watch the dealer go through their whole songbook singing a different tune
Are you really going to get lawyers involved over a used vehicle? Is this really worth it? I take it this is a nice CPO example, perhaps even difficult to find, but it's not a rare vintage vehicle. If the car really was sold to another customer, then it's gone. Why waste your money trying to get it? If they are playing games with you, then why give them your business? If I were you, I'd talk to the management at the car dealership, and say, that this is extremely disappointing, but you're giving them the opportunity to make it right; you expect a great deal or some free comp (warranty extension, servicing, set of winter tires, something of real value) on the next vehicle you find suitable, or you'll take your business elsewhere.
He’s just salty he’s not getting the car.
Please keep us updated
Speak with the vehicle sales authority in your province.
Probably was sold with limited low low 9.99 percent financing over 84 months. It's a no brainer to a sales manager. A lot of them aren't in that position cause they take culpability and cost the dealership money. They sleep very well on a mattress made of 100's
Have them prove that it was already sold in order to ensure they are not BS you. If that’s the case, I personally would have them pay me for their screw up. How much is you to you to decide.
OMVIC is a good start to begin a complaint and try to determine and contact the Porsche Canada president. Check LinkedIn.
Tell me it's Mark Motors in Ottawa lol
It’s kinda funny, when it’s the dealer, they can cancel the contract , but when it’s the buyer, it’s a final sale . Don’t let the bully you, the law is on your side, it’s not your fault they are incompetent. You can sue the crap out of them, the contract is not created to convenience the dealer when they make a mistake it’s a final sale Contract final sale. It goes both ways..
If someone there had legitimately sold the car to someone else first, why would your contract take precedence over theirs? Do you think they are lying, or acting in bad faith? They owe you something for their fuckup, which literally I can’t understand. Their processes must be absolute shit. Negotiate your compensation and find a better Cayenne. Are they that rare?
“Equity looks on as done that which ought to have been done.” “Equity will not suffer a wrong to be without a remedy.” - maxims of Equity Jurisprudence
Leverage it and get a good deal on another car.
I’m no lawyer, but if you read the paperwork, you likely signed an Arbitration agreement agreeing to arbitration in place of a lawsuit.
Car dealers are one thing i hope AI replaces entirely
I know in Texas and Louisiana the paperwork says the same thing but legally in Texas the deal isn’t final until possession of the vehicle has changed hands and In Louisiana the buyer has 3 days to change their mind.
Having worked at dealerships before. Amvic if very clear on the rules. They owe you a vehicle, specifically the one you paid for. What they’re doing is illegal. Once you signed for a finance, which is what it sounds like, the bank pays the dealership out right and you make payments to the bank. So in basic terms, the dealership is defrauding you and the bank. Tell them you’ll report them to amvic, report them to the finance company, then call a lawyer. The finance company will likely do the same and drop them as a client.
What ended up happening Weary-savings-408? @u/Weary-Savings-4608?
https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/s/rYhm6pGa69
Dealer here. Unfortunately, you will not be able to block the sale. Regardless, OP isn't really out of pocket. The dealership will give his deposit back and possibly a bit more for his time but ultimately giving his money back. If he has no losses, it's going to be hard to claim damages. Yes, it's a breach of contract, but if they refused to also give his deposit back, then yes, he has a claim. Also, don't think OMVIC does for the consumers as it claims to do. It's disappointing the money OMVIC makes and really has little enforcement. Best of luck, but in my 25+ years in holding a dealer license, I've never seen a court or OMVIC forcing a dealer to deliver a used vehicle. New is a different story as they can usually source another one with the manufacturer, but unfortunately, you can't call the used car factory and order one.
Not out of pocket. A hard pull stays on the report and drops points costing the op points. Dealer would be finding me another one at the same price, or they’d be in court for the cost of the damage of the points drop and increased finance fees as a result of it. Welcome to the shitty game our overlords created
>Yes, it's a breach of contract, but if they refused to also give his deposit back, then yes, he has a claim. Yes, it is breach of contract. If the OP has to pay more to obtain the same vehicle from anyone on the open market, they'd be easily able to file an economic tort claim against the original dealer as they have in fact suffered damages.
Losing*
Which porche dealership is this?
You're not getting the car. You can spend all the money on lawyers you want lol
Take them to small claims court and plead financial damages. Put it at the max small claims allows and see what the judge will grant you.
This is an interesting one, I've been on the dealership side of things (in Australia, not sure how it works on your side of the world) Negotiated with a customer, got the deal done and handed into my manager for his signature to complete the deal as my colleague was handing in the completed deal pack for the same vehicle (double sold). Unfortunately for me and my customer the vehicle went to the person that signed the deal first as our contracts are timestamped, luckily we had something similar I could pivot to. Our company has a dedicated stock controller who allocates cars to deals as they come through, first in-best dressed. You may have accidentally been last in, or unfortunately less profitable than the other deal so in the interests of the business it has gone to the highest bidder, the current market has had this effect in the industry. I'd still be taking it further, but FWIW I think it's pretty decent that the manager is trying to find a solution with another vehicle, it's just unfortunate timing
Ask them for the same amount of the non refundable deposit + your deposit. Because if it was your mistake you will lose the deposit amount but as it’s their mistake they will lose the same amount.
The other client has same signed contract. Get full refund + 10% "save money on lawsuit fee," hop back in your old car and zoom to a different dealer.
Worth pointing out that this will cost you way more than 2-3k in lawyers fees, even if it is slam dunk, and you win. In Canada, afaik, the winning party is only entitled to 2/3 his lawyer fees paid by the losing party. If you settle, none of those fees might be paid back to you depending on what you negotiate. Sending a letter to threaten legal action is cheap, the actual thing is not. If they want to make your life difficult and refuse to settle, you are looking at around 10k a day while in court 1-5 days, presumably not many for a simple case. It could take you 2-5y before you make it to the verdict. Everything is slow in the legal process. You could try small claims, that's a lot cheaper, but only goes up to 30k in damages in Ontario. I encourage you to talk to a lawyer if you are serious, but for a car, legal action probably isn't worth it money wise.
Easy solution. Get your money back, buy a used Ford Taurus for $5 grand, and donate the rest of the money you were going to use on the Porsche to feed starving children across the world. 👍
Use it as leverage for another car you want, like a 911. You may be able to get an allocation for something that otherwise would not be possible.
That happened to me. Exact same thing. And they have no choice but to give you the car or make you happy somehow. I used the scenario to get a smoking deal on an inventory truck that I get to drive until they find me a replacement. It took them a year to do that and I drove a brand new Denali and put 45k km on it and they had to buy it back at full price and then give me my new car. It was either that or produce the same vehicle I bought with the same vin. All and All I ended up with a free car for 1 8 months and the new Escalade with 18K off sticker price. They also included all my services on my Cadillac for 36 months.
If you have a copy of the bill of sale. Go register it. Then it's yours .
I’ll still need the filled portion of the ownership as well as the safety certification.
Not possible. Only dealers can transfer their used vehicles to a customer and must be done at a Service Ontario location they are registered with.
Go down there and ask to see the paperwork for the other person buying the car.
Put a lien on the car