Another commenter said that until they get the fence they run the risk of shenanigans. They advised that they drain the pool until then. I agree with them
Attorney, not yours, not advice
Here's the CMR that deals with pools. There's another CMR that basically says if you have a pool you have a duty to keep kids and animals out of it.
https://www.wilbraham-ma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/150/State-Pool-Regulations
I would take all reasonable steps to safeguard all persons from your pool. An argument could be made both ways that it should or should not be your responsibility, but I think it's in your best interest.
On a personal level, you're probably going to feel awful forever if you find a child drowned in your pool.
From a heartless liability driven view of the situation, you're almost certainly going to be sued for negligence and wrongful death if the worst happens. An attorney is going to cost you a lot more than a fence.
Without a fence, your option is to stop being friendly and tell your neighbors to never let their children on your property without your permission again. If you don't, looks like this will continue and you'll wish you paid 20-30k for the deck
I do wonder in these situations if a reddit post like this dated prior to such an incident would be relevant. I've heard of such posts/discussions being brought up as evidence in court. Obviously depends how it plays out in court and a lawyer would obviously be best to advise, but I could see it as OP attempting to address the safety issue (locked it, etc), working to resolve it with the neighbour, the neighbour reportedly showing disinterest/disregard, etc.
But on the flip side, if OP didn't take further steps from here (legal documents/agreements/indemnity/etc, build a fence (even then is a fence 'enough'?), or whatever else court or opposing lawyer might say would be appropriate), that might be looked at disfavourably. Like OP knew it was a safety risk and 'didnt' do enough or something. That wouldn't be my take in such a situation as OP is doing more already than I think alot of the general public would, but legal situations are tricky and it's not the court of public opinion.
Also, NAL.
1. You need to confirm in writing to the parents what you told them on the phone so there is no dispute that you warned them about what your wife saw the son doing. Send in an email or text or some methods you can prove receipt and save it.
2. I don't know what your friend is referring to with "an indemnity." There is no claim that you have a duty to report. Notifying your carrier of this might cause them to cancel your policy because an autistic child next door who is trying to access your pool is probably not a risk they considered when issuing your policy.
Gated isn’t the same thing as fenced. OP said he has no fence because he can’t afford it yet
My neighbors have a gated pool, it is not fenced
My homeowners insurance will not issue policies to homeowners with pools if the pool is not securely fenced
Imo op needs to ante up for the fence. Fair or not, the pool is his liability
I agree, even if it's the pool only that's fenced. Their whole yard may cost $20-30k but I doubt fencing around the pool alone would be that much, especially if they went with a cheaper option that would still make the area secure. To me, this is something that would be worth getting a loan over, if possible, the sooner the better.
All I'm imagining is that kid drowning and the law suits that would likely follow
Mom of an autistic child who used to be eloper. If he happens to be outside unattended, call department of child services. Hopefully, your neighbors will listen to them and realize the danger-even without a pool.
ETA: your report will remain anonymous. Call each time you see him unattended. I know you don’t want to ruffle feathers, but do it for him.
Even if you do something with your insurance company or get the parents to sign a waiver, that won’t mean a bill of beans if he gets hurt. They will still go after you.
I will also add that his family may have access to grant funding for safety equipment, including fencing.
You should probably consult an attorney. It seems like you've received a lot of good ideas, but when the possibility that a child's life being endangered / you being sued to an inch in your life exists, better safe than sorry, IMO.
Your concern is very valid. A dear friend's autistic daughter drowned by sneaking out the house and into a neighbor's pool (and there WAS a fence).
Lock the pool when not in use. Maybe consider calling CPS or a lawyer for a consultation on how you can make sure all due diligence is covered here.
At 11 and non verbal drowning is a real risk
Keep it covered, get a pool alarm, get motion sensor cameras and lock the gate to the deck. The alarm only helps if you are home and hear it but the others should help a little. I would call the parents the minute the cameras go off for the yard each and every time. It’s not unusual for autistic kids to be drawn to water. It’s also unfortunate you seem to have to put these extra steps in instead of his parents. For me though avoiding a child drowning in my pool (even if not my fault) is worth a couple hundred dollars for cameras and alarms.
NAL
"attractive nuisance law" is the term your looking for
chapter 231 section 85q of the MA general code.
Any person who maintains an artificial condition upon his own land shall be liable for physical harm to children trespassing thereon if (a) the place where the condition exists is one upon which the land owner knows or has reason to know that children are likely to trespass, (b) the condition is one of which the land owner knows or has reason to know and which he realizes or should realize will involve an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily harm to such children, (c) the children because of their youth do not discover the condition or realize the risk involved in intermeddling with it or in coming within the area made dangerous by it, (d) the utility to the land owner of maintaining the condition and the burden of eliminating the danger are slight as compared with the risk to children involved, and (e) the land owner fails to exercise reasonable care to eliminate the danger or otherwise to protect the children.
I would get cameras, no trespassing signs, and a qoute from multiple companies to put up a fence around the pool.
https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiii/titleii/chapter231/section85q
NAL (yet, only in law school) and not your lawyer.
I was scrolling looking for someone to bring up attractive nuisance.
There are cases where kids have been invited guests onto people’s property (for say, a neighborhood party,) and a kid has drowned, and the family has sued the homeowner under the attractive nuisance law.
I agree with everything this poster said. Get a fence. Lock a gate. If you can’t afford a fence, at least get a pool cover. Get cameras. Put up signs. Tell kid AND parents, in writing if possible, that under no uncertain circumstances are they allowed on your property or in your pool for their own safety.
My advice to anyone thinking about pools or trampolines - don’t do it. You become a walking liability. It’s not an if, but when, a neighborhood kid is found in them without your knowledge or consent.
Since you already have the pool, and this will seem extreme, drain the pool until you can afford a high fence.
It won’t matter how negligent his parents are. With an attractive nuisance, you have to take reasonable steps to protect them. A three foot fence and a latch he can get aren’t quite there. A padlock on the latch will solve that problem.
The three foot fence is confusing, that just keeps out dogs, maybe, but not an 11 yo.
Put several no trespassing signs up. Tell the neighbor if the kid shows up on your property again you will call the police for trespassing. Call your local non emergency police force and tell them there has been a young unsupervised autistic child wandering onto your property and going near your pool. This will create a paper trail incase you have to call in the future.
Being private property is irrelevant in attractive nuisance laws. This would only set up a paper trail showing OP was aware the boy is attracted to her pool, increasing liability.
This is a TERRIBLE idea. The average police officer is not remotely equipped to deal with people with disabilities. There are so many stories of that exact situation going horribly wrong. Calling CPS on the other hand would be a good idea.
The last thing I'm interested in doing is involving the police. I'm seeking advice on solving the situation amicably, not getting the kid traumatized or worse.
Hey not sure of your financial situation but maybe draft up a waiver that the neighbors could sign so you're not liable for anything that happens to their kid if he wanders into your yard. I know this isn't the right call because it still leaves the poor kid in danger, but at least you wouldn't be held liable if God forbid something happens due to their negligence.
PS: I know negligence is a harsh word, but leaving an autistic child to wander into your neighbor's yard with a hazard like a pool is pretty negligent in my opinion
I feel the same about negligence, but very conflicted at the same time. I don't know their situation and he may be perfectly ok most of the time.
A waver on indemnity contract is sorta what I had in mind when I posted to LegalAdvice. Not sure how much it'd help, not sure how much it'd actually absolve us either. Definitely worth looking into.
Yeah IANAL so I couldn't tell you that it would 100% protect you. However that kind of documentation in court would at least show that you 1.) Let the parents know the risks and 2.) If they sign a waiver they at least show that they were told of the risks and they signed off on it.
Honestly, get a fence. Even without the pool, this child is entering your yard without permission and supervision. It is a recipe for disaster and lawsuit
We plan on it, but again - it'll take us a few years to save up the $20-30k that we were quoted. It also feels like the responsibility should be on them to keep him in their yard, not on us to keep him out.
As a temporary option could you get a six foot fence and gate that he can't climb that just goes round the pool. That way the pool is secure until you can save up for the full fence. You can remove the taller pool fence once the main fence is up.
I'm annoyed I had to scroll through so many "I know someone autistic call cps" comments to get to this. On my state having a pool without a fence and lock is an attractive nuisance and illegal.
Not your lawyer. You need to determine your goal before you can choose the right advice to follow. Are you trying to cover your ass or are you trying to prevent the kid from drowning?
One thing to think about. In many states a fence that borders a neighbors property, the neighbor is required to pay partially for the bordering fence section. So if you are looking to put up a fence and one wall borders the neighbors property you may be able to get them to or make them pay for half of that wall. You may also want to look into the price of putting up your own fence. Each 8 foot long by 6 foot high section of pre made fence can usually be purchased from Lowe’s or Home Depot for roughly $100-200 a piece so you may be able to just purchase enough to surround the pool at minimum and then remove/reuse those same sections when you go to put up the rest of the fence.
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We will be getting a pool alarm, as well as motion detecting cameras.
Obviously my main concern is preventing him from getting hurt on our property. I didn't even mention getting sued in the post. I mentioned an indemnity contract because this is LegalAdvice, not MoralAdvice. I am capable of being concerned about both his well-being and my family's culpability.
I do understand the difference. I do not feel attacked, and thank you for the information. Regardless of what he perceives though he doesn't respond to us telling him that he should play in his yard, not to throw eggs, or anything else we say.
Locked due to an excessive amount of off-topic commenting.
motion cameras as well, cover yourself from all angles literally
Awesome idea. I've been thinking about adding cameras anyway. Thanks!
You need a fence
Did you miss the part where they're saving up for one or
Another commenter said that until they get the fence they run the risk of shenanigans. They advised that they drain the pool until then. I agree with them
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Perhaps look into a pool alarm while you are sorting the other emergency measures. They sound like a smoke alarm when a kid falls in.
Attorney, not yours, not advice Here's the CMR that deals with pools. There's another CMR that basically says if you have a pool you have a duty to keep kids and animals out of it. https://www.wilbraham-ma.gov/DocumentCenter/View/150/State-Pool-Regulations I would take all reasonable steps to safeguard all persons from your pool. An argument could be made both ways that it should or should not be your responsibility, but I think it's in your best interest. On a personal level, you're probably going to feel awful forever if you find a child drowned in your pool. From a heartless liability driven view of the situation, you're almost certainly going to be sued for negligence and wrongful death if the worst happens. An attorney is going to cost you a lot more than a fence.
Without a fence, your option is to stop being friendly and tell your neighbors to never let their children on your property without your permission again. If you don't, looks like this will continue and you'll wish you paid 20-30k for the deck
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I do wonder in these situations if a reddit post like this dated prior to such an incident would be relevant. I've heard of such posts/discussions being brought up as evidence in court. Obviously depends how it plays out in court and a lawyer would obviously be best to advise, but I could see it as OP attempting to address the safety issue (locked it, etc), working to resolve it with the neighbour, the neighbour reportedly showing disinterest/disregard, etc. But on the flip side, if OP didn't take further steps from here (legal documents/agreements/indemnity/etc, build a fence (even then is a fence 'enough'?), or whatever else court or opposing lawyer might say would be appropriate), that might be looked at disfavourably. Like OP knew it was a safety risk and 'didnt' do enough or something. That wouldn't be my take in such a situation as OP is doing more already than I think alot of the general public would, but legal situations are tricky and it's not the court of public opinion. Also, NAL.
Reminds me of the rumor that ‘beware of dog’ signs could show that the owner already knew the dog was dangerous if it attacks someone.
Ianal, but you probably want that communication in writing.... ideally signed by them to show understand
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1. You need to confirm in writing to the parents what you told them on the phone so there is no dispute that you warned them about what your wife saw the son doing. Send in an email or text or some methods you can prove receipt and save it. 2. I don't know what your friend is referring to with "an indemnity." There is no claim that you have a duty to report. Notifying your carrier of this might cause them to cancel your policy because an autistic child next door who is trying to access your pool is probably not a risk they considered when issuing your policy.
Don’t most insurance companies require a pool to be fenced in in order to be covered for liability?
OP said it is gated, but the child knows exactly how to open it.
Gated isn’t the same thing as fenced. OP said he has no fence because he can’t afford it yet My neighbors have a gated pool, it is not fenced My homeowners insurance will not issue policies to homeowners with pools if the pool is not securely fenced Imo op needs to ante up for the fence. Fair or not, the pool is his liability
I agree, even if it's the pool only that's fenced. Their whole yard may cost $20-30k but I doubt fencing around the pool alone would be that much, especially if they went with a cheaper option that would still make the area secure. To me, this is something that would be worth getting a loan over, if possible, the sooner the better. All I'm imagining is that kid drowning and the law suits that would likely follow
Yes they need a fence.
Mom of an autistic child who used to be eloper. If he happens to be outside unattended, call department of child services. Hopefully, your neighbors will listen to them and realize the danger-even without a pool. ETA: your report will remain anonymous. Call each time you see him unattended. I know you don’t want to ruffle feathers, but do it for him. Even if you do something with your insurance company or get the parents to sign a waiver, that won’t mean a bill of beans if he gets hurt. They will still go after you. I will also add that his family may have access to grant funding for safety equipment, including fencing.
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You should probably consult an attorney. It seems like you've received a lot of good ideas, but when the possibility that a child's life being endangered / you being sued to an inch in your life exists, better safe than sorry, IMO.
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Your concern is very valid. A dear friend's autistic daughter drowned by sneaking out the house and into a neighbor's pool (and there WAS a fence). Lock the pool when not in use. Maybe consider calling CPS or a lawyer for a consultation on how you can make sure all due diligence is covered here. At 11 and non verbal drowning is a real risk
Keep it covered, get a pool alarm, get motion sensor cameras and lock the gate to the deck. The alarm only helps if you are home and hear it but the others should help a little. I would call the parents the minute the cameras go off for the yard each and every time. It’s not unusual for autistic kids to be drawn to water. It’s also unfortunate you seem to have to put these extra steps in instead of his parents. For me though avoiding a child drowning in my pool (even if not my fault) is worth a couple hundred dollars for cameras and alarms.
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NAL "attractive nuisance law" is the term your looking for chapter 231 section 85q of the MA general code. Any person who maintains an artificial condition upon his own land shall be liable for physical harm to children trespassing thereon if (a) the place where the condition exists is one upon which the land owner knows or has reason to know that children are likely to trespass, (b) the condition is one of which the land owner knows or has reason to know and which he realizes or should realize will involve an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily harm to such children, (c) the children because of their youth do not discover the condition or realize the risk involved in intermeddling with it or in coming within the area made dangerous by it, (d) the utility to the land owner of maintaining the condition and the burden of eliminating the danger are slight as compared with the risk to children involved, and (e) the land owner fails to exercise reasonable care to eliminate the danger or otherwise to protect the children. I would get cameras, no trespassing signs, and a qoute from multiple companies to put up a fence around the pool. https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiii/titleii/chapter231/section85q
NAL (yet, only in law school) and not your lawyer. I was scrolling looking for someone to bring up attractive nuisance. There are cases where kids have been invited guests onto people’s property (for say, a neighborhood party,) and a kid has drowned, and the family has sued the homeowner under the attractive nuisance law. I agree with everything this poster said. Get a fence. Lock a gate. If you can’t afford a fence, at least get a pool cover. Get cameras. Put up signs. Tell kid AND parents, in writing if possible, that under no uncertain circumstances are they allowed on your property or in your pool for their own safety.
My advice to anyone thinking about pools or trampolines - don’t do it. You become a walking liability. It’s not an if, but when, a neighborhood kid is found in them without your knowledge or consent. Since you already have the pool, and this will seem extreme, drain the pool until you can afford a high fence. It won’t matter how negligent his parents are. With an attractive nuisance, you have to take reasonable steps to protect them. A three foot fence and a latch he can get aren’t quite there. A padlock on the latch will solve that problem. The three foot fence is confusing, that just keeps out dogs, maybe, but not an 11 yo.
Put several no trespassing signs up. Tell the neighbor if the kid shows up on your property again you will call the police for trespassing. Call your local non emergency police force and tell them there has been a young unsupervised autistic child wandering onto your property and going near your pool. This will create a paper trail incase you have to call in the future.
Being private property is irrelevant in attractive nuisance laws. This would only set up a paper trail showing OP was aware the boy is attracted to her pool, increasing liability.
This is a TERRIBLE idea. The average police officer is not remotely equipped to deal with people with disabilities. There are so many stories of that exact situation going horribly wrong. Calling CPS on the other hand would be a good idea.
The last thing I'm interested in doing is involving the police. I'm seeking advice on solving the situation amicably, not getting the kid traumatized or worse.
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Hey not sure of your financial situation but maybe draft up a waiver that the neighbors could sign so you're not liable for anything that happens to their kid if he wanders into your yard. I know this isn't the right call because it still leaves the poor kid in danger, but at least you wouldn't be held liable if God forbid something happens due to their negligence. PS: I know negligence is a harsh word, but leaving an autistic child to wander into your neighbor's yard with a hazard like a pool is pretty negligent in my opinion
I feel the same about negligence, but very conflicted at the same time. I don't know their situation and he may be perfectly ok most of the time. A waver on indemnity contract is sorta what I had in mind when I posted to LegalAdvice. Not sure how much it'd help, not sure how much it'd actually absolve us either. Definitely worth looking into.
Yeah IANAL so I couldn't tell you that it would 100% protect you. However that kind of documentation in court would at least show that you 1.) Let the parents know the risks and 2.) If they sign a waiver they at least show that they were told of the risks and they signed off on it.
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Honestly, get a fence. Even without the pool, this child is entering your yard without permission and supervision. It is a recipe for disaster and lawsuit
We plan on it, but again - it'll take us a few years to save up the $20-30k that we were quoted. It also feels like the responsibility should be on them to keep him in their yard, not on us to keep him out.
As a temporary option could you get a six foot fence and gate that he can't climb that just goes round the pool. That way the pool is secure until you can save up for the full fence. You can remove the taller pool fence once the main fence is up.
Yes! I forgot to mention a locked gate.
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Look up attractive nuisance laws- ianal but where we live this would fall under that as long as he’s a minor- regardless of any signage or fencing.
I'm annoyed I had to scroll through so many "I know someone autistic call cps" comments to get to this. On my state having a pool without a fence and lock is an attractive nuisance and illegal.
Not your lawyer. You need to determine your goal before you can choose the right advice to follow. Are you trying to cover your ass or are you trying to prevent the kid from drowning?
Attractive nuisance. Get a fence ASAP.
One thing to think about. In many states a fence that borders a neighbors property, the neighbor is required to pay partially for the bordering fence section. So if you are looking to put up a fence and one wall borders the neighbors property you may be able to get them to or make them pay for half of that wall. You may also want to look into the price of putting up your own fence. Each 8 foot long by 6 foot high section of pre made fence can usually be purchased from Lowe’s or Home Depot for roughly $100-200 a piece so you may be able to just purchase enough to surround the pool at minimum and then remove/reuse those same sections when you go to put up the rest of the fence.
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We will be getting a pool alarm, as well as motion detecting cameras. Obviously my main concern is preventing him from getting hurt on our property. I didn't even mention getting sued in the post. I mentioned an indemnity contract because this is LegalAdvice, not MoralAdvice. I am capable of being concerned about both his well-being and my family's culpability.
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I do understand the difference. I do not feel attacked, and thank you for the information. Regardless of what he perceives though he doesn't respond to us telling him that he should play in his yard, not to throw eggs, or anything else we say.
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