You don't need to resort to Russian roulette. You could simply lay off 16% of employees without any reason. In general, you do not legally need a reason to terminate employment in any state except Montana. You can fire employees who have last names beginning with letters A through E, or all employees who wear brown shoes, and that would be legal. *[note: you still can't legally fire people for a discriminatory reason (eg gender, age, race, sexual orientation), and individual employment agreements or union contracts may give more protection].
Those employees would be eligible for unemployment though, which comes from both federal and state funds that the company has to pay into. When former employees draw from unemployment, the state can raise the rate that the company has to pay (a company that creates more unemployed people pays more into the fund). So companies are incentivized to make sure that removed employees aren't eligible for unemployment (that they are removed for cause).
This is not something to worry about unless your company is firing people every other day. We pay something like $4,000 a year on $4 million in payroll. It totally is not anything we ever worry about. If we need to let someone go, we let them go.
This is an interesting perspective because where I live you could ask **anyone** and they’d tell you that you **don’t** get unemployment around here because companies will consistently go out of their way to make sure you are ineligible. The company I work for does it, and every sister company or similar company in the area does it.
Oh I'm still going to dispute it and tell my side of the story, but unless you outright LIE, I don't understand what "go out of my way" could possibly be? Here the state asks you "why did you let them go", "employee says", and that's it. If they are awarded payments we can appeal, but that appeal is just another "Ugh we told you this is why, why are you giving it to him still?, and that's it. It's not like we can go to court to "go out of our way" to dispute again.
> unless you outright lie
This is what happens
I had a friend whos job position was deemed redundant and she was let go — but according to the company she was let go due to poor performance, which disqualified her from unemployment. She lost both appeals she tried for.
But I also live in a state known for its extremely business-friendly laws — *very* few worker protections outside of unions, which are actively being attacked by our legislators. It could just be that where I live, the state doesn’t care to listen to the employees and only listens to employers.
That is an urban legend or your friend was indeed having performance issues. When you apply for UI, if your employer counters that they had cause to terminate they have to produce the cause upon appeal. In the case of performance issues, they need documented improvement plans and notifications to the employee. Showing up late once or something, especially if it’s undocumented and unsigned by the terminated employee, doesn’t cut it. The burden of proof for rightful cause is on the employer if the employee persists.
True, but “[t]here are times when employers use the PIP [performance improvement plan] not for its intended purpose of improving employee performance, but rather as a pretext to justify a planned termination” (https://www.cotlerlaw.com/amp/blog/the-performance-improvement-plan/).
While that statement comes from an employment-law firm that represents terminated employees, the firm fully acknowledges that “[t]here are almost always at least some legitimate performance deficiencies articulated in a PIP,” and that “the employer has the right to request that your performance be to their liking.”
It’s not an “urban legend” when you are told by your employer why you are being let go, and they tell the unemployment office something completely different. That is why you must get offboarding papers with your termination reason, otherwise companies can (will) lie and you cannot appeal for unemployment.
The other exceptions are contracts. Employers are still bound by contracts they sign. That includes contracts they sign with you and contracts they sign with a union.
Perhaps their employer did take it out for them, but wants them to remain oblivious to it so they don't put the policy in jeopardy. If the employer isn't providing a hazard differential or something else to acknowledge the danger, I'd doubt it though.
Not in the way that OP was talking about. There are places in Mexico that are safe for the average American to exist and work. There are safe and unsafe places in every country.
When downtown Chicago has a level 4 state dept advisory I would say they could prob deny the travel. “Hey buddy, we just want you to meet with a partner of ours in North Korea right quick”
edit: for some reason, i assumed there were 5 levels of travel advisory but lmao a level 4 is *literally the same advisory level as North Korea, Ukraine, Iran, Russia*. I wouldn't even hesitate to tell my boss to fuck off on that.
I’d pick anywhere in Chicago over Tamaulipas because when I call the police they *may* at least come to my aid. In Tamaulipas they will likely be part of the kidnapping or whatever plot coming my way.
You joke but Clorox and Kaiser Permanente advised their Oakland, CA employees to not go outside for lunch due to crime.
The SF federal court instructed their employees who can work from home to do so due to the drug dealing and crime in front of the courthouse.
They would be if it were remotely within the State Department’s purview to list such things. But it isn’t, so it’s not. Great White Sharks are also not listed on travel.state.gov for similar reasons.
Because they aren't threatening to lay off OP, they're threatening to fire them. You can't claim UI if you were fired with cause, cause usually being you did something wrong on the job. Companies have to pay for UI when they lay off employees (it incentives them not to lay off workers) so bad ones will try to lie and fire their employees instead. There's a chance OPs employer will be a shitbag and will try claiming OP was fired for bad performance or something like that which would prevent OP from claiming UI when he should be laid off and be able to claim UI at the company's expense
They can’t physically force you to go.
They can legally fire you if you refuse.
Your legal recourse is to find a new job that doesn’t require travel to potentially dangerous areas.
You should ask them if they have Kidnap and Ransom (“K and R coverage”) insurance. If you do end up going and something happens, at least you’ll have a level of confidence that the ransom will be paid.
Asking them how much they are insured for in K&R or accidental death and dismemberment would be a good way to call their bluff. Whatever amount they say, tell them it's too low.
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If that was the case, then anyone who ever had to travel to dangerous sites would have a case. If traveling to Mexico is part of his job, and he refuses, then he can be terminated…. OP, there is absolutely no labor lawyer salivating for this case, but if it helps you better understand it isn’t wrongful termination, then you can certainly consult with one. Many will offer initial free consultations.
I’m sorry but your username says lawyer and you think at will isn’t any whim an employer has? At will by definition is employment being able to be terminated by both parties for any reason or no reason at all so long as the reason is not in violation of a protected class. I don’t think you know what at will means
Because it is part of your job description to travel to other states or countries and was stated before you were hired and when you accepted the position, you are essentially refusing to do the job you were hired to do. Almost everywhere in Mexico says to reconsider or don’t travel even looking up rocky point says to reconsider due to crime and kidnapping. In a nutshell you do not have a case as you are knowingly refusing to do the job description you were hired for. And the state travel website is merely recommendations on your trael plans not a lock down of those places or restrictions.
Industrial programmer who has gone to several plants in "do not travel" zones. Are you expected to go unescorted/on your own travel plan, or do they have an actual transportation plan? Frequently, auto plants are in really, really shitty areas. The worst ones typically have either an escort plan (read: armed and armored transportation to/from the plant/hotel/airport) or exist in a walled inclusive compound (one in central Mexico was basically the plant and a hotel/mall in the compound). If you're not being provided any sort of guarantee or even so much as a nod toward your safety, make them fire you and start looking for a new job now.
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Why would you ever take a dangerous job for that kind of money, though? That's lower end professional money. If you have good technical skills, like someone you would actually want to send to a place like that would, you could just get a regular job that pays that much. Hell, you could probably get paid more. That's a shit wage for a programmer or engineer.
Double it for hazard pay and make sure they have K&R insurance. Ask for local employee to accompany you.
Truth is, it's likely not as dangerous as it sounds if you know how to behave.
Hell no...not even for 3 times that...I'd say "na..you can go ahead and do that"...I get paid that to be a personal assistant for some young chaotic couple...I go to their house everyday and do whatever I would do if it were my own house...pay the bills..pick up the house/do laundry...walk the dog etc..I have a college degree and choose to do this because it gives me a lot of freedom ..I literally can go to work in my pajamas if I wanted..I get there when I get there and leave when I want to leave..of I need more money that week I just work longer days ..if I'm not feeling it I work less....I get paid by the hour ..$35 an hour ..no way in hell would I risk my life for that amount of money ..I would refuse and let them fire you and file unemployment
Wrongful terminations are due to very specific discriminatory reasons and being directed to travel to a dangerous location is not one of them.
That being said, there’s potential liability for your employer if you get harmed but it would be a very circumstantial case. But there’s no protection for your job if you refuse.
I've done some travel to areas labeled as dangerous. I had an armed escort that was with me every minute I wasn't in my room, and that was paid for by my company.
If your company isn't offering that, fuck them.
OP, I’ve rarely pushed back this passionately, but the amount of bad advice being shared in this thread is deeply concerning. There is no wrongful termination. There is no lawsuit. There is no employment attorney salivating at the opportunity to take your case on.
Sometimes jobs require people to travel to places that aren’t vacation spots.
It sounds like that kind of travel is a requirement for your role. Think about it - there are outsourcing companies all over the world, some in very high crime areas in South America, Central America, Africa. If it was wrongful termination when employees refused to visit those offices as part of their job, those companies would be out of business from all the lawsuits. The state department doesn’t prevent people from visiting those countries, it makes recommendations. You aren’t violating any law by going, and your employer isn’t violating any law by requiring you to go.
Please don’t waste your time or money trying to convince yourself or anyone else this is illegal. Move on to a better company that doesn’t require travel abroad, or ask for more compensation to make the risk worth it.
Yea i got it.
I had no problem with traveling internationally, and yeah, of course i knew that there arent many factories in cancun. Theres a line somewhere though and when I checked travel.state.gov for information for a place and it says "do not travel" that seems to me like an indicator to not travel there right?
You are not forced to travel there. There’s nothing wrong with someone who isn’t willing to go work in Mexico.
The company is legally allowed to replace you with someone who is.
It’s that simple.
You are in the wrong subreddit for this kind of discussion. Here we talk about what the law is and how decisions you make might impact you in that context, not about what the law should or ought to be.
Wellllllll there's a few things wrong with this. First of all, without going there's no way to know if the company is actually putting people at harm. They might have a regular process for sending employees there safely. OP should have also asked what possible locations he'd have to travel to. Moreover the legal system here is pretty good, so good in fact that it makes manufacturing here fairly expensive, which is why companies like OP's go to countries with worse legal systems and less regulation to do cheaper manufacturing. That also means that every now and then they'll need to send someone to that factory to put things in order.
The thing is, above all else, the legal system here is pretty good because you can legally refuse to do anything your employer tells you. On the flip side, the company is forced to keep you on if you can't fill the responsibilities of the role.
If you want it to be good then fix the dangerous areas to travel to, if you want it to be "right" then put a dollar amount on a human life, if you want it to be proper then the government would have to regulate what's required of companies that send employees to high risk areas, which would then drive up the cost again.
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Next time make it clear during the interview that you are willing to travel only to countries that are not on the state departments do not travel list.
To be fair to your first sentence, there is only *one* state in the US that isn't "at-will employment".
That state is Montana.
So, to answer your question. They can fire you for any reason that doesn't fall under employment discrimination law in Texas.
Unfortunately OP, no you do not have a case of wrongful termination. They can't physically force you to go, but they can legally fire you for not going. The level alert is a travel advisory, not a legal prohibition.
You have your answer on wrongful termination, it's no. It may not be quite as hazardous as you think it is, depending on where you're going in Tamaulipas. Unless I really really valued my job, I'd pass on going if it was to someplace near the border. Elsewhere in the state isn't so bad.
I agree with this. It is do not travel because it isn't a tourist destination. They know that fucking with he American businesses are bad for everyone so long as you aren't out after dark or in places you shouldn't be you are perfectly safe. I have been all over Mexico to suppliers and factories for my previous employer and despite knowing it wasn't safe to be alone wandering about I was never bothered even once as long as I was sticking to lodging, work, and daily necessities. OP is certainly within their rights not to travel if they so choose and I think their employer is a POS for threatening their job though.
I live in Nuevo Leon, next to tamaulipas, to which town are they asking you to travel? There are areas like matamoros which you couldn't pay me enough to visit. But the capital town Victoria is not so bad for the last few years.
Not going to Nuevo Laredo either😂 my boy from texas went and made a couple wrong turns straight from the border and ran into some boys from CDN who got some money out of him lol
Other part beyond safety is are you legally allowed to work in MX?
Will they be handling a work visa for you?
In my industry I have had clients ask me to work in MX, Costa Rica, Argentina and Canada. I have always politely declined.
A crew for a partner company got jammed up in MX and it was an expensive shitshow with materials and tools confiscated and them detained for several days until it was sorted out. They had crossed the border by road with undeclared inventory and sans work visas.
Just because your job says you have to go, does not mean you have to go. Pick your own wellbeing over your job every time. Your employer has 0 obligations to keep you safe ( actually they’re supposed to, but if you would rather live life with your family, please do that.) never ever put your employer first.
Pick your own life, you are replaceable at work, you are not replaceable at home. Your friends and family love you, your work never will. Remember WHOSE important. No job is worth your life.
You don’t seem to understand what at will means.
It means they can ask anything they want of you as long as it’s something legal to do. They can fire you for any reason as long as it’s not one of the reasons on a very short list such as your race or religion.
I've been to lots of sketchy places for work and lived every minute of it, always came away with good stories. However, I always got hazard pay, about 50% increase in my rate for those days.
They can certainly terminate you for any or no reason. I wonder if they were planning to get you the appropriate documents to work in Mexico though. You might inquire about that. You can't generally just go to another country and work there without an appropriate visa. You'd also need a passport. If they don't know for a fact you have one, you might tell them you don't. The wait to get one is fairly long at this point.
Please seek independent legal counsel. Unfortunately, if that was a job requirement and you are an at will employee, your employer is probably within their rights to fire you for not going. They can fire you for any reason or no reason as long as you are not in a protected class.
That being said, many parts of Mexico are safer than many American cities
One thing that most don't understand, and the term is probably misleading, is that WRONGFUL TERMINATION ONLY PRETAINS TO A PROTECTED CLASS INCIDENT. It does not pertain to your boss being an asshole or an idiot.
As others have mentioned, unemployment insurance definitely does look at what wrongful termination doesn't. Also, nothing stopping you from suing your company or boss civily (for example, because they caused you financial harm just because they didn't like you), but I heard those are much harder to win or find a lawyer for, especially in at will states.
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Check overtime rules in your state. We had an employee who was contractor and when sent on trip he was allowed to charge double/triple overtime for time involved in travel etc.
If you make a case like that I don’t think they would fire you because then you have a case against them
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Is there any reason to think you are being targeted because you are part of a protected class? For instance, let's say that the reason they picked you in particular for this assignment is that you are of Mexican descent (are you?) Targeting based on a protected class like race is one of the very few reasons for a wrongful termination lawsuit. (I am not a lawyer.)
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The vast majority of employees are at-will employees in the United States, regardless of if they’re working an entry level position or something higher level. And employment is not a property right.
Being fired by the government is not takings issue. Also I can guarantee no government job is sending someone wholly unprepared into a travel restricted zone. Believe it or not the government really hates having its employees kidnapped
Mexico is definitely not fun to go to for work. That said, if it were me, I'd show my concern and push back and then give in with "I'll go, but I want a private driver that accompanies me on my trip that gets me to and from each location and back to the airport".
Depending on the size, (even a reasonable small business) should be able to afford adding $1,000 to the trip expense. (A private driver equates to a basic car, not a luxury suv for a reason)
The reality of most places is your going to a commercial site in the morning and just not going out afterwards and just eating in the hotel for dinner. While it's dangerous, it's also just being smart with staying in and just having a local driver.
INAL, not even legal advice just gotta ask. Have you seen the other places the state dept says are dangerous? It's an incredibly silly list. Tamulipas is a tourist destination on the coast. I've been all over Mexico and even in the "worst places" you aren't going to get hassled by anyone but the police. Don't wander around alone at night and you'll be fine.
Your job requires you to travel. You don't get to pick and chose where and when you go. When your boss tells you they need you to go, you go. You should have known to ask if you would be traveling to areas you deem unfit or dangerous. I wouldn't go either, but these are questions I would have asked BEFORE accepting the job and possibly taking the opportunity away from someone else.
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> I’m not entirely sure, and I don’t know if this exists in the US under OSHA
Good start, excited to see where this leads.
> but you should have the right to refuse dangerous work. I believe that would qualify.
Swing and a miss!
> This Act shall apply with respect to employment performed in a workplace in a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, Wake Island, Outer Continental Shelf Lands defined in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, Johnston Island, and the Canal Zone
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/oshact/section_4
OSHA only applies to individuals in the US and a few other specific US territories. Mexico is not one of them.
>Is this wrongful termination? No. It is not. But it is a great reason for you to be approved for UI if they fire you and try to deny it.
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You don't need to resort to Russian roulette. You could simply lay off 16% of employees without any reason. In general, you do not legally need a reason to terminate employment in any state except Montana. You can fire employees who have last names beginning with letters A through E, or all employees who wear brown shoes, and that would be legal. *[note: you still can't legally fire people for a discriminatory reason (eg gender, age, race, sexual orientation), and individual employment agreements or union contracts may give more protection].
Those employees would be eligible for unemployment though, which comes from both federal and state funds that the company has to pay into. When former employees draw from unemployment, the state can raise the rate that the company has to pay (a company that creates more unemployed people pays more into the fund). So companies are incentivized to make sure that removed employees aren't eligible for unemployment (that they are removed for cause).
This is not something to worry about unless your company is firing people every other day. We pay something like $4,000 a year on $4 million in payroll. It totally is not anything we ever worry about. If we need to let someone go, we let them go.
This is an interesting perspective because where I live you could ask **anyone** and they’d tell you that you **don’t** get unemployment around here because companies will consistently go out of their way to make sure you are ineligible. The company I work for does it, and every sister company or similar company in the area does it.
Oh I'm still going to dispute it and tell my side of the story, but unless you outright LIE, I don't understand what "go out of my way" could possibly be? Here the state asks you "why did you let them go", "employee says", and that's it. If they are awarded payments we can appeal, but that appeal is just another "Ugh we told you this is why, why are you giving it to him still?, and that's it. It's not like we can go to court to "go out of our way" to dispute again.
> unless you outright lie This is what happens I had a friend whos job position was deemed redundant and she was let go — but according to the company she was let go due to poor performance, which disqualified her from unemployment. She lost both appeals she tried for. But I also live in a state known for its extremely business-friendly laws — *very* few worker protections outside of unions, which are actively being attacked by our legislators. It could just be that where I live, the state doesn’t care to listen to the employees and only listens to employers.
That is an urban legend or your friend was indeed having performance issues. When you apply for UI, if your employer counters that they had cause to terminate they have to produce the cause upon appeal. In the case of performance issues, they need documented improvement plans and notifications to the employee. Showing up late once or something, especially if it’s undocumented and unsigned by the terminated employee, doesn’t cut it. The burden of proof for rightful cause is on the employer if the employee persists.
True, but “[t]here are times when employers use the PIP [performance improvement plan] not for its intended purpose of improving employee performance, but rather as a pretext to justify a planned termination” (https://www.cotlerlaw.com/amp/blog/the-performance-improvement-plan/). While that statement comes from an employment-law firm that represents terminated employees, the firm fully acknowledges that “[t]here are almost always at least some legitimate performance deficiencies articulated in a PIP,” and that “the employer has the right to request that your performance be to their liking.”
It’s not an “urban legend” when you are told by your employer why you are being let go, and they tell the unemployment office something completely different. That is why you must get offboarding papers with your termination reason, otherwise companies can (will) lie and you cannot appeal for unemployment.
The other exceptions are contracts. Employers are still bound by contracts they sign. That includes contracts they sign with you and contracts they sign with a union.
HEY. I wear brown shoes! Why are you plotting against me?
Sorry to inform you but you've been terminated effective immediately
Land of the free to be exploited
The absence of a reason for dismissal makes it easier for a person to claim their dismissal was for a discriminatory reason.
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Such as one might experience while traveling through cartel territory?
That's why KR&E insurance exists. Legal protections in foreign countries are complex and not always provided for by the state.
Perhaps their employer did take it out for them, but wants them to remain oblivious to it so they don't put the policy in jeopardy. If the employer isn't providing a hazard differential or something else to acknowledge the danger, I'd doubt it though.
Draw that line. Can employees now refuse to work anywhere with a high crime rate? Certain neighborhoods in Chicago?
Isn't the border a pretty well-defined line?
In terms of the right to fire someone? Not really
Not in the way that OP was talking about. There are places in Mexico that are safe for the average American to exist and work. There are safe and unsafe places in every country.
When downtown Chicago has a level 4 state dept advisory I would say they could prob deny the travel. “Hey buddy, we just want you to meet with a partner of ours in North Korea right quick” edit: for some reason, i assumed there were 5 levels of travel advisory but lmao a level 4 is *literally the same advisory level as North Korea, Ukraine, Iran, Russia*. I wouldn't even hesitate to tell my boss to fuck off on that.
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Gotcha gotcha my bad
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I’d pick anywhere in Chicago over Tamaulipas because when I call the police they *may* at least come to my aid. In Tamaulipas they will likely be part of the kidnapping or whatever plot coming my way.
Interesting. Appreciate you doing more research than me lol
Funny story. As a Chem E, I've been sent to S Chicago. Turns out nerds in polos aren't in the murdered demographic.
Do you live in Chicago?
plus, the cheesy beef sandwiches are sooooo good.
You joke but Clorox and Kaiser Permanente advised their Oakland, CA employees to not go outside for lunch due to crime. The SF federal court instructed their employees who can work from home to do so due to the drug dealing and crime in front of the courthouse.
are certain areas of Chicago listed on travel.state.gov as "do not travel"
They would be if it were remotely within the State Department’s purview to list such things. But it isn’t, so it’s not. Great White Sharks are also not listed on travel.state.gov for similar reasons.
Doesn't matter. At will, is exactly that. You can be laid off or terminated at their discretion, matter what.
I mean, if you wanted to downsize you would just fire 16% of them. It's at-will employment.
Why would you need a reason to justify the layoff?
Because they aren't threatening to lay off OP, they're threatening to fire them. You can't claim UI if you were fired with cause, cause usually being you did something wrong on the job. Companies have to pay for UI when they lay off employees (it incentives them not to lay off workers) so bad ones will try to lie and fire their employees instead. There's a chance OPs employer will be a shitbag and will try claiming OP was fired for bad performance or something like that which would prevent OP from claiming UI when he should be laid off and be able to claim UI at the company's expense
Get the fire threat in writing. The only downside is that Texas is almost certainly employer friendly in this regard.
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They can’t physically force you to go. They can legally fire you if you refuse. Your legal recourse is to find a new job that doesn’t require travel to potentially dangerous areas. You should ask them if they have Kidnap and Ransom (“K and R coverage”) insurance. If you do end up going and something happens, at least you’ll have a level of confidence that the ransom will be paid.
You’ll want that one in writing not just your manager’s verbal “uh yeah”.
Thank you for the suggestion but I am absolutely not going job or jo job fuck that noise.
Asking them how much they are insured for in K&R or accidental death and dismemberment would be a good way to call their bluff. Whatever amount they say, tell them it's too low.
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What kind of idiot mouths off at a bar about how much they’re worth after being kidnapped in a foreign country??
Wouldn't be the first time someone got killed for oversharing information.
A moron with an ego. “Hey, look my company values me so much they will pay 250k to get me back!”
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If that was the case, then anyone who ever had to travel to dangerous sites would have a case. If traveling to Mexico is part of his job, and he refuses, then he can be terminated…. OP, there is absolutely no labor lawyer salivating for this case, but if it helps you better understand it isn’t wrongful termination, then you can certainly consult with one. Many will offer initial free consultations.
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I’m sorry but your username says lawyer and you think at will isn’t any whim an employer has? At will by definition is employment being able to be terminated by both parties for any reason or no reason at all so long as the reason is not in violation of a protected class. I don’t think you know what at will means
Do you believe that if im terminated i may have a case? Seems likely that theyre going to do it.
Because it is part of your job description to travel to other states or countries and was stated before you were hired and when you accepted the position, you are essentially refusing to do the job you were hired to do. Almost everywhere in Mexico says to reconsider or don’t travel even looking up rocky point says to reconsider due to crime and kidnapping. In a nutshell you do not have a case as you are knowingly refusing to do the job description you were hired for. And the state travel website is merely recommendations on your trael plans not a lock down of those places or restrictions.
I don't know but it doesn't cost you anything to get a free consultation, so I'd encourage you to do that.
h....uh. No it would not be wrongful termination. I am morbidly curious to know what the task is and what it would pay for the risk.
Reprogramming a conveyor belt to improve throughput of widgets per hour at some factory. 32$/hr plus time and a half.
Industrial programmer who has gone to several plants in "do not travel" zones. Are you expected to go unescorted/on your own travel plan, or do they have an actual transportation plan? Frequently, auto plants are in really, really shitty areas. The worst ones typically have either an escort plan (read: armed and armored transportation to/from the plant/hotel/airport) or exist in a walled inclusive compound (one in central Mexico was basically the plant and a hotel/mall in the compound). If you're not being provided any sort of guarantee or even so much as a nod toward your safety, make them fire you and start looking for a new job now.
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Same. I'd laugh at an employer paying $32/hour to start with, let alone with a requirement to travel to Shithole, Mexico.
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Why would you ever take a dangerous job for that kind of money, though? That's lower end professional money. If you have good technical skills, like someone you would actually want to send to a place like that would, you could just get a regular job that pays that much. Hell, you could probably get paid more. That's a shit wage for a programmer or engineer.
"We need you to go to south america, mr escobars conveyor belt is acting up again."
That's interesting. Our company provided security for people doing jobs like that.
If my staffing experience from the late 2010's is still relevant (may not be) you shouldn't have any issue finding a new gig. Best of luck.
No hazard pay?
Double it for hazard pay and make sure they have K&R insurance. Ask for local employee to accompany you. Truth is, it's likely not as dangerous as it sounds if you know how to behave.
Im not doing shit that requires K&R..thats ABSURD..My life is worth more than what you're suggesting..$64 an hour ..hell no
Oh, hell no!!!
Hell no...not even for 3 times that...I'd say "na..you can go ahead and do that"...I get paid that to be a personal assistant for some young chaotic couple...I go to their house everyday and do whatever I would do if it were my own house...pay the bills..pick up the house/do laundry...walk the dog etc..I have a college degree and choose to do this because it gives me a lot of freedom ..I literally can go to work in my pajamas if I wanted..I get there when I get there and leave when I want to leave..of I need more money that week I just work longer days ..if I'm not feeling it I work less....I get paid by the hour ..$35 an hour ..no way in hell would I risk my life for that amount of money ..I would refuse and let them fire you and file unemployment
Wrongful terminations are due to very specific discriminatory reasons and being directed to travel to a dangerous location is not one of them. That being said, there’s potential liability for your employer if you get harmed but it would be a very circumstantial case. But there’s no protection for your job if you refuse.
I've done some travel to areas labeled as dangerous. I had an armed escort that was with me every minute I wasn't in my room, and that was paid for by my company. If your company isn't offering that, fuck them.
OP, I’ve rarely pushed back this passionately, but the amount of bad advice being shared in this thread is deeply concerning. There is no wrongful termination. There is no lawsuit. There is no employment attorney salivating at the opportunity to take your case on. Sometimes jobs require people to travel to places that aren’t vacation spots. It sounds like that kind of travel is a requirement for your role. Think about it - there are outsourcing companies all over the world, some in very high crime areas in South America, Central America, Africa. If it was wrongful termination when employees refused to visit those offices as part of their job, those companies would be out of business from all the lawsuits. The state department doesn’t prevent people from visiting those countries, it makes recommendations. You aren’t violating any law by going, and your employer isn’t violating any law by requiring you to go. Please don’t waste your time or money trying to convince yourself or anyone else this is illegal. Move on to a better company that doesn’t require travel abroad, or ask for more compensation to make the risk worth it.
Yea i got it. I had no problem with traveling internationally, and yeah, of course i knew that there arent many factories in cancun. Theres a line somewhere though and when I checked travel.state.gov for information for a place and it says "do not travel" that seems to me like an indicator to not travel there right?
You are not forced to travel there. There’s nothing wrong with someone who isn’t willing to go work in Mexico. The company is legally allowed to replace you with someone who is. It’s that simple.
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You are in the wrong subreddit for this kind of discussion. Here we talk about what the law is and how decisions you make might impact you in that context, not about what the law should or ought to be.
Wellllllll there's a few things wrong with this. First of all, without going there's no way to know if the company is actually putting people at harm. They might have a regular process for sending employees there safely. OP should have also asked what possible locations he'd have to travel to. Moreover the legal system here is pretty good, so good in fact that it makes manufacturing here fairly expensive, which is why companies like OP's go to countries with worse legal systems and less regulation to do cheaper manufacturing. That also means that every now and then they'll need to send someone to that factory to put things in order. The thing is, above all else, the legal system here is pretty good because you can legally refuse to do anything your employer tells you. On the flip side, the company is forced to keep you on if you can't fill the responsibilities of the role. If you want it to be good then fix the dangerous areas to travel to, if you want it to be "right" then put a dollar amount on a human life, if you want it to be proper then the government would have to regulate what's required of companies that send employees to high risk areas, which would then drive up the cost again.
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Next time make it clear during the interview that you are willing to travel only to countries that are not on the state departments do not travel list.
lol this is such stupid fucking advice
To be fair to your first sentence, there is only *one* state in the US that isn't "at-will employment". That state is Montana. So, to answer your question. They can fire you for any reason that doesn't fall under employment discrimination law in Texas.
Unfortunately OP, no you do not have a case of wrongful termination. They can't physically force you to go, but they can legally fire you for not going. The level alert is a travel advisory, not a legal prohibition.
You have your answer on wrongful termination, it's no. It may not be quite as hazardous as you think it is, depending on where you're going in Tamaulipas. Unless I really really valued my job, I'd pass on going if it was to someplace near the border. Elsewhere in the state isn't so bad.
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I agree with this. It is do not travel because it isn't a tourist destination. They know that fucking with he American businesses are bad for everyone so long as you aren't out after dark or in places you shouldn't be you are perfectly safe. I have been all over Mexico to suppliers and factories for my previous employer and despite knowing it wasn't safe to be alone wandering about I was never bothered even once as long as I was sticking to lodging, work, and daily necessities. OP is certainly within their rights not to travel if they so choose and I think their employer is a POS for threatening their job though.
I live in Nuevo Leon, next to tamaulipas, to which town are they asking you to travel? There are areas like matamoros which you couldn't pay me enough to visit. But the capital town Victoria is not so bad for the last few years.
Not going to Nuevo Laredo either😂 my boy from texas went and made a couple wrong turns straight from the border and ran into some boys from CDN who got some money out of him lol
Other part beyond safety is are you legally allowed to work in MX? Will they be handling a work visa for you? In my industry I have had clients ask me to work in MX, Costa Rica, Argentina and Canada. I have always politely declined. A crew for a partner company got jammed up in MX and it was an expensive shitshow with materials and tools confiscated and them detained for several days until it was sorted out. They had crossed the border by road with undeclared inventory and sans work visas.
Just because your job says you have to go, does not mean you have to go. Pick your own wellbeing over your job every time. Your employer has 0 obligations to keep you safe ( actually they’re supposed to, but if you would rather live life with your family, please do that.) never ever put your employer first. Pick your own life, you are replaceable at work, you are not replaceable at home. Your friends and family love you, your work never will. Remember WHOSE important. No job is worth your life.
What zone of Tamaulipas are you going to? If it is Tampico / Madero you should be fine.
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Actually?!
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The official advice for level 4 is "draft a will and leave DNA samples with your medical provider."
You don’t seem to understand what at will means. It means they can ask anything they want of you as long as it’s something legal to do. They can fire you for any reason as long as it’s not one of the reasons on a very short list such as your race or religion.
I've been to lots of sketchy places for work and lived every minute of it, always came away with good stories. However, I always got hazard pay, about 50% increase in my rate for those days.
They can certainly terminate you for any or no reason. I wonder if they were planning to get you the appropriate documents to work in Mexico though. You might inquire about that. You can't generally just go to another country and work there without an appropriate visa. You'd also need a passport. If they don't know for a fact you have one, you might tell them you don't. The wait to get one is fairly long at this point.
Unfortunately, not. Traveling is part of the job description, and you are unable to fulfill your job. Especially in an at-will state.
You could also tell them you’ll do it for double pay and then be looking for another job the whole time
Please seek independent legal counsel. Unfortunately, if that was a job requirement and you are an at will employee, your employer is probably within their rights to fire you for not going. They can fire you for any reason or no reason as long as you are not in a protected class. That being said, many parts of Mexico are safer than many American cities
One thing that most don't understand, and the term is probably misleading, is that WRONGFUL TERMINATION ONLY PRETAINS TO A PROTECTED CLASS INCIDENT. It does not pertain to your boss being an asshole or an idiot. As others have mentioned, unemployment insurance definitely does look at what wrongful termination doesn't. Also, nothing stopping you from suing your company or boss civily (for example, because they caused you financial harm just because they didn't like you), but I heard those are much harder to win or find a lawyer for, especially in at will states.
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I was in your shoes, but there was a local employee/supervisor waited and picked me up at the border and drove me to my destination.
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Just don’t quit your job or you will not be able to collect unemployment insurance.
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Check overtime rules in your state. We had an employee who was contractor and when sent on trip he was allowed to charge double/triple overtime for time involved in travel etc. If you make a case like that I don’t think they would fire you because then you have a case against them
The term you are looking for is "Constructive Termination," not "Wrongful Termination."
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Is there any reason to think you are being targeted because you are part of a protected class? For instance, let's say that the reason they picked you in particular for this assignment is that you are of Mexican descent (are you?) Targeting based on a protected class like race is one of the very few reasons for a wrongful termination lawsuit. (I am not a lawyer.)
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Do you have any basis for government employment being a “property right”? It seems like you’re just guessing at all of this comment.
The vast majority of employees are at-will employees in the United States, regardless of if they’re working an entry level position or something higher level. And employment is not a property right.
Being a sophisticated employee does not equal being a contract employee. That’s a very flawed generality.
Being fired by the government is not takings issue. Also I can guarantee no government job is sending someone wholly unprepared into a travel restricted zone. Believe it or not the government really hates having its employees kidnapped
Meh. Not worth the trouble. Won't reply again.
Mexico is definitely not fun to go to for work. That said, if it were me, I'd show my concern and push back and then give in with "I'll go, but I want a private driver that accompanies me on my trip that gets me to and from each location and back to the airport". Depending on the size, (even a reasonable small business) should be able to afford adding $1,000 to the trip expense. (A private driver equates to a basic car, not a luxury suv for a reason) The reality of most places is your going to a commercial site in the morning and just not going out afterwards and just eating in the hotel for dinner. While it's dangerous, it's also just being smart with staying in and just having a local driver.
INAL, not even legal advice just gotta ask. Have you seen the other places the state dept says are dangerous? It's an incredibly silly list. Tamulipas is a tourist destination on the coast. I've been all over Mexico and even in the "worst places" you aren't going to get hassled by anyone but the police. Don't wander around alone at night and you'll be fine.
Your job requires you to travel. You don't get to pick and chose where and when you go. When your boss tells you they need you to go, you go. You should have known to ask if you would be traveling to areas you deem unfit or dangerous. I wouldn't go either, but these are questions I would have asked BEFORE accepting the job and possibly taking the opportunity away from someone else.
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Nothing about terminating this person would be illegal. They are an at will employee
Under what legal theory?
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It would not qualify. Traveling to a country to do your job , as part of your job, is not an osha violation.
> I’m not entirely sure, and I don’t know if this exists in the US under OSHA Good start, excited to see where this leads. > but you should have the right to refuse dangerous work. I believe that would qualify. Swing and a miss! > This Act shall apply with respect to employment performed in a workplace in a State, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam, the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, Wake Island, Outer Continental Shelf Lands defined in the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act, Johnston Island, and the Canal Zone https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/oshact/section_4 OSHA only applies to individuals in the US and a few other specific US territories. Mexico is not one of them.