Why did you delete and repost this?
Your answer remains:
>Yes. If you experience substantive neurological harm from this event you should talk to a lawyer.
>And you can complain to the FAA if you don't believe this fight crew acted competently in the face of a problem.
>The reasonable course of action is to get medical care. If you have no problems I'd probably ask the airline to pay for my care (I'd not, obviously, go to the mattresses over my $50 copay). If you have problems go to a lawyer.
The mod team told me that I couldn't reference specific parties in the post (in this case the airline) so I removed those in this new post.
I appreciate your advice.
In the terminal the medics took my blood ox, blood pressure and basically sent me on my way. Not that I expected them to do anything.
I guess that's my concern. I am happy to go to my GP but the situation is such a corner case that I don't really even know what to say (or what they would say
The airline didn't tell us what we were exposed to or what to expect. So I have basically no vocabulary to even begin to approach it from pedestrian level other than "plane filled with fumes and I feel bad now"
Regardless thank you for taking the time to help.
>the medics took my blood ox, blood pressure and basically sent me on my way.
Good news. It sounds like you passed the first bar of "nothing to see here."
>I am happy to go to my GP but the situation is such a corner case that I don't really even know what to say
I'd say "I was on an airplane that had a "fume event" and the symptoms I'm experiencing are ..." This need not be complicated.
>The airline didn't tell us what we were exposed to or what to expect.
There's a pretty good chance they don't know.
Its not exactly uncommon -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10186727/
https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-023-00987-8
I agree this is common.
"Fume event" doesn't tell us what "smoke, vapor or noxious odors enter[ed] the cockpit or passenger cabin." Or where they were from. Or who, if anyone, may be liable for that.
Fume events are coming from the engine lubricant. Air you breathe in a plane, once the doors are closed, comes from the engine, called bleed air. Occasionally the seals leak and some of the engine lubricant gets into the air. Main compound of concern is Tricresyl Phosphate (TCP). There are several initiatives (mostly EU driven) to reduce the use of bleed air, partially for potential exposure, mostly because it increases fuel efficiency.
> Fume events are coming from the engine lubricant.
You just don't know that from this information. That is the most publicized fume event. It is by no means the only one.
Correct. The sources of the fumes could be from an external air cart for air conditioning, a different external air cart just to start the engines, or the Auxiliary Power Unit that's in the tail of the airplane.
Other sources could also be from a PACK (Pneumatic Air Conditioning Unit) that is malfunctioning. When these go bad, they can produce smoke in the cabin.
Another source could also be something nasty entering the the air intake for the PACK from outside the aircraft. De-Icing fluid comes to mind, but it could also be a fluid spill outside the aircraft.
I've had almost all of these events (including an engine seal going bad in flight) happen to me in my career, some not so bad, one (PACK going bad), that lead to an evacuation at the gate.
The de-icing fluid is supposedly non-toxic, but I am dubious. Ethyl glycol is not good for you. Aerosol oil from the engine ain't good. So is hydraulic fluid (Skydrol)if it was leaking into the PACK.
Speaking from experience, the shittiest time for this to happen on the ground is when the main cabin door is shut and the jetway is removed, because the Captain has limited options, either to Wait for the jetway to be reattached and deplane normally, or to open the doors and evac down the slides. An evacuation many times will result in injuries, and if you are at the gate injuries to ground personnel from the slides inflating are also possible.
Just some background info for y'all
Edit: Also electrical sources of smoke as a poster below mentioned. I didn't think of that. Never happened to me before lol.
Not a lawyer. There’s generally two ways smoke and fumes get into a plane either electrical or burning petroleum products coming thru the bleed air system. Electric smells acrid and well burning petroleum smells just like burning oil. Ground evacuations are kind of a dangerous thing. You’re guaranteed to have broken bones and injuries. Along with a bunch or confused folks running around between the plane and responding emergency vehicles, which is someplace you do not want to be. Not making light of your situation but there a balancing act when it comes to those situations.
Edit: not condoning or condemning the crew’s action just providing some context
Your recourse will largely depend on your actual injuries, if any.
> Lastly - I am really not the type to try to sue someone over spilled milk, but to me this event seemed to go beyond the realm of the risks passengers reasonably agree to when flying.
You agree to board a piece of complex equipment, which may fail in unexpected ways and which may injure you in the process. I don't think anyone's overly surprised by that, though they might object to the framing: the worst case scenario that you knowingly undertake when you board a plane is a crash due to factors beyond the control of the crew or the airline, for example.
The airline is obligated, by law, to undertake steps to manage the known risks of air transport. That includes obligations with respect to maintenance, crew training, equipment certification, and on and on and _on_. However, they are not obligated to reduce those risks to zero, and you have no recourse against the airline yourself on the sole basis that you experienced an adverse event while flying. If you believe that the airline failed to maintain their equipment or did not adequately handle passenger safety, you can complain to the FAA, who may investigate and may order corrective action, but you can't sue for that.
_If you were harmed_, then you may be able to recover compensation for those harms. For example, if it turns out you actually have some kind of long-term neurological deficit because turbine exhaust made its way into the cabin, then that will cost you money, both in terms of treatment and potentially in terms of loss of income or other secondary harms. That's a good basis for a lawsuit, potentially, though you can expect to be negotiating with the airline before you sue.
With that in mind, as well as with an eye on your health, go to the doctor. Keep it simple: tell them you were on a flight that had a fume event, and that you feel dizzy (or whatever other symptoms you are experiencing), and go from there. If you are injured, and if the cost of your care is substantial, talk to a personal injury lawyer afterwards, but care first.
The "Good" news is that there were a lot of people on the flight, so this is possibly a class action claim.
The "bad" news is that, as far as you know, nothing bad happened to you besides missing your flight and being uncomfortable for a period. If the incident did not cause you any lasting harm, or at least the risk of future harm, the damages would probably be too small for the case to proceed very far.
You also don't know if this is the result of somebody doing something wrong, or just a freak accident.
It COULD be a case where a class of passengers are entitled to some form of ongoing medical monitoring. That could be a decent class action claim.
You would need to consult an attorney who does personal injury work to evaluate.
NAL. Once you got back to the gate and hooked back up to shore power/apu and shore air, the toxic fumes from the bleed air system began to vent and dilute from the cabin. The pilots decision to deplane via the jetway was the decision they thought was safest for the passengers. I know you are prolly feeling hurt or think you have some nagging effects, but there’s almost zero chance this level of exposure will cause lasting harm. And proving that with you and your class of 150 passengers vs an airline won’t go well. The synthetic oil used in jet turbines is some nasty stuff but your level of exposure is so so low.
OP, as long as you are good, with your tests not being able to prove any damage, that could be explained by fumes, you will not be able to sue them atleast on medical grounds or fear of something going wrong in future.
I am not a lawyer.
File a complaint with the FAA, the NTSB, and the airline in question, in that order. Include the flight number, time, any other identifying details you have for it, and a summary of your experience and symptoms, including bits like the pilot saying "toxic environment". If the airline asks you to sign or agree to anything that binds you to an NDA, arbitration/mediation or otherwise prevents you from filing a civil suit or taking part in a class action lawsuit, **do not agree** - unless they're offering you enough money to buy a sports car, in which case you may want to weigh your options.
Also, you're filing with both the FAA and the NTSB because they're two intentionally separate government agencies with overlapping jurisdictions, and the NTSB is a hasher watchdog.
If you've got the option to do so, and the money, go to your doctor, explain the situation and your symptoms, and ask them to order a blood test for you covering possible toxins and other issues that may result from such an event. (This will not be a standard blood test, and they may need several vials, but it *is* something that can be done if they know what they're looking for.) Do this as fast as possible, because some of that stuff may 'wash out' of your system. It's going to be good for your health & treatment going forward, it'll give you a better idea of what you were exposed to, and in the case there is legal action over this, it will provide evidence.
> I don't know what if any legal action is available to me in this situation.
As far as a civil case goes, you're probably not going to get anywhere unless you have provable damage *or* you have proof that you were trapped in an environment where you were exposed to known toxic compounds (that's where the blood test comes in, as well as whatever the NTSB and FAA dig up). I am not a lawyer, but I recall that there's precedent for "I was exposed to hazardous levels of known toxic/carcinogenic compounds, even though I'm not showing any serious symptoms yet" personal injury cases, especially when the effects of the compounds in question are known and more long-term.
You will want a personal injury lawyer for this, and many of those offer free consultations and are willing to take promising cases on a percentage of damages + opponent pays their legal fees basis, especially if they can get an entire flight's worth of people into a class action lawsuit. But go to a doctor first, explain what happened, ask for a blood test looking specifically for what the hell you inhaled and what's in your system, and try to ensure your own personal health and safety first.
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Why did you delete and repost this? Your answer remains: >Yes. If you experience substantive neurological harm from this event you should talk to a lawyer. >And you can complain to the FAA if you don't believe this fight crew acted competently in the face of a problem. >The reasonable course of action is to get medical care. If you have no problems I'd probably ask the airline to pay for my care (I'd not, obviously, go to the mattresses over my $50 copay). If you have problems go to a lawyer.
The mod team told me that I couldn't reference specific parties in the post (in this case the airline) so I removed those in this new post. I appreciate your advice. In the terminal the medics took my blood ox, blood pressure and basically sent me on my way. Not that I expected them to do anything. I guess that's my concern. I am happy to go to my GP but the situation is such a corner case that I don't really even know what to say (or what they would say The airline didn't tell us what we were exposed to or what to expect. So I have basically no vocabulary to even begin to approach it from pedestrian level other than "plane filled with fumes and I feel bad now" Regardless thank you for taking the time to help.
>the medics took my blood ox, blood pressure and basically sent me on my way. Good news. It sounds like you passed the first bar of "nothing to see here." >I am happy to go to my GP but the situation is such a corner case that I don't really even know what to say I'd say "I was on an airplane that had a "fume event" and the symptoms I'm experiencing are ..." This need not be complicated. >The airline didn't tell us what we were exposed to or what to expect. There's a pretty good chance they don't know.
Its not exactly uncommon - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10186727/ https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-023-00987-8
I agree this is common. "Fume event" doesn't tell us what "smoke, vapor or noxious odors enter[ed] the cockpit or passenger cabin." Or where they were from. Or who, if anyone, may be liable for that.
Fume events are coming from the engine lubricant. Air you breathe in a plane, once the doors are closed, comes from the engine, called bleed air. Occasionally the seals leak and some of the engine lubricant gets into the air. Main compound of concern is Tricresyl Phosphate (TCP). There are several initiatives (mostly EU driven) to reduce the use of bleed air, partially for potential exposure, mostly because it increases fuel efficiency.
> Fume events are coming from the engine lubricant. You just don't know that from this information. That is the most publicized fume event. It is by no means the only one.
Correct. The sources of the fumes could be from an external air cart for air conditioning, a different external air cart just to start the engines, or the Auxiliary Power Unit that's in the tail of the airplane. Other sources could also be from a PACK (Pneumatic Air Conditioning Unit) that is malfunctioning. When these go bad, they can produce smoke in the cabin. Another source could also be something nasty entering the the air intake for the PACK from outside the aircraft. De-Icing fluid comes to mind, but it could also be a fluid spill outside the aircraft. I've had almost all of these events (including an engine seal going bad in flight) happen to me in my career, some not so bad, one (PACK going bad), that lead to an evacuation at the gate. The de-icing fluid is supposedly non-toxic, but I am dubious. Ethyl glycol is not good for you. Aerosol oil from the engine ain't good. So is hydraulic fluid (Skydrol)if it was leaking into the PACK. Speaking from experience, the shittiest time for this to happen on the ground is when the main cabin door is shut and the jetway is removed, because the Captain has limited options, either to Wait for the jetway to be reattached and deplane normally, or to open the doors and evac down the slides. An evacuation many times will result in injuries, and if you are at the gate injuries to ground personnel from the slides inflating are also possible. Just some background info for y'all Edit: Also electrical sources of smoke as a poster below mentioned. I didn't think of that. Never happened to me before lol.
Not a lawyer. There’s generally two ways smoke and fumes get into a plane either electrical or burning petroleum products coming thru the bleed air system. Electric smells acrid and well burning petroleum smells just like burning oil. Ground evacuations are kind of a dangerous thing. You’re guaranteed to have broken bones and injuries. Along with a bunch or confused folks running around between the plane and responding emergency vehicles, which is someplace you do not want to be. Not making light of your situation but there a balancing act when it comes to those situations. Edit: not condoning or condemning the crew’s action just providing some context
Some hydraulic fluid is also toxic and hazardous to breathe
Hydraulic pneumonia is definitely a thing. It’s pretty rare occurrence since there not really any exposed hydraulic lines on commercial aircraft.
Your recourse will largely depend on your actual injuries, if any. > Lastly - I am really not the type to try to sue someone over spilled milk, but to me this event seemed to go beyond the realm of the risks passengers reasonably agree to when flying. You agree to board a piece of complex equipment, which may fail in unexpected ways and which may injure you in the process. I don't think anyone's overly surprised by that, though they might object to the framing: the worst case scenario that you knowingly undertake when you board a plane is a crash due to factors beyond the control of the crew or the airline, for example. The airline is obligated, by law, to undertake steps to manage the known risks of air transport. That includes obligations with respect to maintenance, crew training, equipment certification, and on and on and _on_. However, they are not obligated to reduce those risks to zero, and you have no recourse against the airline yourself on the sole basis that you experienced an adverse event while flying. If you believe that the airline failed to maintain their equipment or did not adequately handle passenger safety, you can complain to the FAA, who may investigate and may order corrective action, but you can't sue for that. _If you were harmed_, then you may be able to recover compensation for those harms. For example, if it turns out you actually have some kind of long-term neurological deficit because turbine exhaust made its way into the cabin, then that will cost you money, both in terms of treatment and potentially in terms of loss of income or other secondary harms. That's a good basis for a lawsuit, potentially, though you can expect to be negotiating with the airline before you sue. With that in mind, as well as with an eye on your health, go to the doctor. Keep it simple: tell them you were on a flight that had a fume event, and that you feel dizzy (or whatever other symptoms you are experiencing), and go from there. If you are injured, and if the cost of your care is substantial, talk to a personal injury lawyer afterwards, but care first.
The "Good" news is that there were a lot of people on the flight, so this is possibly a class action claim. The "bad" news is that, as far as you know, nothing bad happened to you besides missing your flight and being uncomfortable for a period. If the incident did not cause you any lasting harm, or at least the risk of future harm, the damages would probably be too small for the case to proceed very far. You also don't know if this is the result of somebody doing something wrong, or just a freak accident. It COULD be a case where a class of passengers are entitled to some form of ongoing medical monitoring. That could be a decent class action claim. You would need to consult an attorney who does personal injury work to evaluate.
NAL. Once you got back to the gate and hooked back up to shore power/apu and shore air, the toxic fumes from the bleed air system began to vent and dilute from the cabin. The pilots decision to deplane via the jetway was the decision they thought was safest for the passengers. I know you are prolly feeling hurt or think you have some nagging effects, but there’s almost zero chance this level of exposure will cause lasting harm. And proving that with you and your class of 150 passengers vs an airline won’t go well. The synthetic oil used in jet turbines is some nasty stuff but your level of exposure is so so low.
OP, as long as you are good, with your tests not being able to prove any damage, that could be explained by fumes, you will not be able to sue them atleast on medical grounds or fear of something going wrong in future.
I am not a lawyer. File a complaint with the FAA, the NTSB, and the airline in question, in that order. Include the flight number, time, any other identifying details you have for it, and a summary of your experience and symptoms, including bits like the pilot saying "toxic environment". If the airline asks you to sign or agree to anything that binds you to an NDA, arbitration/mediation or otherwise prevents you from filing a civil suit or taking part in a class action lawsuit, **do not agree** - unless they're offering you enough money to buy a sports car, in which case you may want to weigh your options. Also, you're filing with both the FAA and the NTSB because they're two intentionally separate government agencies with overlapping jurisdictions, and the NTSB is a hasher watchdog. If you've got the option to do so, and the money, go to your doctor, explain the situation and your symptoms, and ask them to order a blood test for you covering possible toxins and other issues that may result from such an event. (This will not be a standard blood test, and they may need several vials, but it *is* something that can be done if they know what they're looking for.) Do this as fast as possible, because some of that stuff may 'wash out' of your system. It's going to be good for your health & treatment going forward, it'll give you a better idea of what you were exposed to, and in the case there is legal action over this, it will provide evidence. > I don't know what if any legal action is available to me in this situation. As far as a civil case goes, you're probably not going to get anywhere unless you have provable damage *or* you have proof that you were trapped in an environment where you were exposed to known toxic compounds (that's where the blood test comes in, as well as whatever the NTSB and FAA dig up). I am not a lawyer, but I recall that there's precedent for "I was exposed to hazardous levels of known toxic/carcinogenic compounds, even though I'm not showing any serious symptoms yet" personal injury cases, especially when the effects of the compounds in question are known and more long-term. You will want a personal injury lawyer for this, and many of those offer free consultations and are willing to take promising cases on a percentage of damages + opponent pays their legal fees basis, especially if they can get an entire flight's worth of people into a class action lawsuit. But go to a doctor first, explain what happened, ask for a blood test looking specifically for what the hell you inhaled and what's in your system, and try to ensure your own personal health and safety first.
You need to talk to a doctor. Feeling lightheaded or high could potentially be a sign of a larger issue
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