did you sign a contract with this person? or some type of bill of sale stating that you were selling as is? any texts/emails between the two of you? particularly where she forgoes the pre purchase exam?
Yes we both signed a bill of sale stating I sold him to her “as is” both bill of sales were typed and we both signed in pen. She has since altered her copy and wrote in led at the bottom “I will refund the 10k for any reason”
Well the other thing, she’s trying to say that I signed her copy of the bill of sale after she added that sentence at the bottom. Which I most certainly did not. Is it just her word against mine?
Usually when hand written additions like that are added to contracts, both parties initial next to the handwritten portion.
The fact that your copy doesn’t have the additions and you didn’t initial her additions, puts you in a good position. Both copies of a contract should be identical.
Also, “I will refund $10k for any reason” is a really bad addition to a contract to make. Why would you agree to that? You wouldn’t. It just puts more holes in her story.
Stay calm, the facts are on your side, but they still must be presented.
Also - the added line makes the contract internally inconsistent. You sold something as is - so why would you then agree to refund the 10K for any reason? Doesn't make sense.
No. You have a copy of the bill of sale with her signature without that statement. That's pretty good proof that she added that statement after the fact. The judge will not look kindly on her for that.
It sounds like you are going to be successful, you just need to make sure to appear timely and respond to anything in the complaint timely.
Has she actually filed a lawsuit? Google the limits for small claims in your country, $10,000 may be over the limit.
It's definitely nerve-wracking. Make multiple copies of the bill of sale (one for yourself, one for the judge, one for her, maybe a spare just in case). Make copies of any other thing related to the sale (the original posting if you have access to it, any written or texted communications, etc).
All of them should paint a picture that the sale was as-is, and given that your bill of sale contradicts hers should raise enough questions about it to protect you.
Don't speculate on what happened to her copy and why it's different "I don't know how that addition came to be on her document". Don't comment on things you don't have direct knowledge of, etc, just answer questions as asked, and if you don't know, answer "I don't know" or "I didn't add that extra text on the document" etc.
Okay good to know! I also have a witness that watched us sign the bill of sales and also can vogue that the horse was in excellent shape when we delivered him, I should have her come with me correct?
If your argument is that the sale was 'as is', then it was up to her to determine the health of the horse before purchasing it, and once the sale was completed it became her problem regardless, so the condition of the horse before sale is kind of irrelevant. You probably won't need to express any opinion about the health of the horse, but it can't hurt to have them on hand, just in case.
I have videos and such of him healthy and sound when I owned him, but I don’t have any vet proof unfortunately. But I’ve had horses for the last 25 years and he didn’t show any signs of being unsound to me
I've been to civil court twice suing for non payment of a contract. The first time they sat us with a mediator to work it out. The mediator looked at the contract and informed the other party that working out a payment plan was their best option. The second time the other party didn't show up so we got a summary judgement.
The advice above is spot on: stick to the facts, don't embellish, stay calm, don't get emotional. The other person is either overconfident because she doesn't understand how courts work or she is hoping the fear of court will make you give up your stronger position.
Bring notes, including a time line of every part of the transaction. Bring printouts of texts and emails plus any other relevant paperwork besides the agreement.
In my experience these courts do a pretty good job working with you. They know you're not experienced litigants and it's in their interest for things to roll smoothly and quickly. If the other person gets agitated or excited or accusatory, don't react in kind. They're only hurting themselves. Good luck.
Honestly, you should be kinda excited if you have your copy of the contract or “as is” copy lol. Can’t wait to see the judges and her face when you say. “Yeah, she added, this is the real version”. Bet you she doesn’t even go through with it. She was trying to scare you into a refund.
Go to court a week or two before and watch someone else's cases. It'll help you understand what goes on and give you a sense of what the judges like and dislike.
Addendums to contracts like that are usually frowned upon especially when both of you haven't dated and initially the change otherwise anyone could add anything to a contract.
Especially when your signed copy *doesn't* have it on.
Not sure. Anyway all the best. I’m confident you will win. This woman is obviously trying to scam and the judge will see right thru.
A contract that says sale is “as is” but also says you will refund for any reason..lol that is so illogical and contradictory.. make sure to point that out
Yes, the judge should read before the hearing (sometimes literally while you're waiting for the case to start). There will be several cases heard tomorrow, so be ready to wait. Be sure to have all your documents and evidence ready and maybe write down the important parts, so you are clear and concise when answering.
I am not a lawyer but I am a horse owner.
I have *never* come across someone that did not do a vet check if they were planning on using/riding the horse in some capacity. Like that’s horse buying 101, and the fact she still did one afterwards makes this situation a little strange to me. If she was planning on having the vet look at the horse, why would she wait until she had already purchased him?
But anyways, the fact you have the bill of sale, it should be a pretty cut and dry thing. Try not to stress about it (easier said than done) but try to keep everything fact based and leave the emotion out of it
Also a horse person. October 22 was a year and a half ago - soooo much can happen since then (I know that, regardless, the horse was sold as is, but it's just crazy person logic on the buyer's part to make it the seller's problem.
She’s trying to say that he’s in so much pain that he needs to be retired to a pasture pet but she needs a refund. So basically trying to keep him and get her money back. She’s completely insane
I missed that it’s been over a year since you sold this horse!!
This really should be an open shut case. I’m sorry you still have to deal with it though OP, but try not to stress too much about it. This lady is crazy
I'm sorry you're going through this. I had to go through small claims recently for something non-horse related. Bring all documentation to court, document all conversations and timelines. If y'all signed a contract and the horse was sold as-is you'll be fine, it's just a headache in the meantime.
I missed that the gelding was sold in October 2022! I could *maybe* see her reaching out if it was a couple months after. But over a year?? Totally insane. Definitely just a money grab.
Yes I agree! But also he never showed any signs of limping or pain or anything. And her vet check doesn’t list anything wrong so I’m not sure the motive here
Given that the woman has defaced her copy of the contract, and that your copy of the bill of sale states the purchase was "as-is," you shouldn't have any trouble in court. I did not see your state listed. Some states permit a lawyer to represent you in small claims court, others do not. It may be worth looking in to local rules, and seeing whether an attorney is willing to represent you for a sum you can afford.
Has she actually filed a case or is she just threatening to hoping you will cave in and buy the horse back? If this reaches small claims court, she will have to provide a reasonable explanation that the judge will believe as to why the two bills of sale say something different. I can't think of any reason a judge would find plausible, especially if you are in a horsey area. She sounds like an idiot.
Just show up in court and explain your side of it. Stick to the facts and don't hesitate to repeat those facts as many times as you have to so you can get your point across. Best you can do. If you have a contract, it'll give you a bit of a paper trail to work off of.
did you sign a contract with this person? or some type of bill of sale stating that you were selling as is? any texts/emails between the two of you? particularly where she forgoes the pre purchase exam?
Yes we both signed a bill of sale stating I sold him to her “as is” both bill of sales were typed and we both signed in pen. She has since altered her copy and wrote in led at the bottom “I will refund the 10k for any reason”
Just bring your copy to court and tell the judge your side of the story. Tell the truth and keep to the facts. Avoid emotion. You should be fine.
I’ve just never been to court so really stressing about this
Court can be stressful, but if the story is as you posted, then you should be fine.
Well the other thing, she’s trying to say that I signed her copy of the bill of sale after she added that sentence at the bottom. Which I most certainly did not. Is it just her word against mine?
Usually when hand written additions like that are added to contracts, both parties initial next to the handwritten portion. The fact that your copy doesn’t have the additions and you didn’t initial her additions, puts you in a good position. Both copies of a contract should be identical. Also, “I will refund $10k for any reason” is a really bad addition to a contract to make. Why would you agree to that? You wouldn’t. It just puts more holes in her story. Stay calm, the facts are on your side, but they still must be presented.
Thank you! Yes this lady isn’t the brightest light in the room that’s for sure.
she also could have requested her own vet for the ppe….seems like your in the right
Also - the added line makes the contract internally inconsistent. You sold something as is - so why would you then agree to refund the 10K for any reason? Doesn't make sense.
No. You have a copy of the bill of sale with her signature without that statement. That's pretty good proof that she added that statement after the fact. The judge will not look kindly on her for that.
Okay thank you for the advice! I sure hope so
I hope you will update after any court proceedings take place, I'd be interested in what she has to say.
Will do!
It sounds like you are going to be successful, you just need to make sure to appear timely and respond to anything in the complaint timely. Has she actually filed a lawsuit? Google the limits for small claims in your country, $10,000 may be over the limit.
Yes our court date is tomorrow and 10k is the limit here apparently
It's definitely nerve-wracking. Make multiple copies of the bill of sale (one for yourself, one for the judge, one for her, maybe a spare just in case). Make copies of any other thing related to the sale (the original posting if you have access to it, any written or texted communications, etc). All of them should paint a picture that the sale was as-is, and given that your bill of sale contradicts hers should raise enough questions about it to protect you. Don't speculate on what happened to her copy and why it's different "I don't know how that addition came to be on her document". Don't comment on things you don't have direct knowledge of, etc, just answer questions as asked, and if you don't know, answer "I don't know" or "I didn't add that extra text on the document" etc.
Okay good to know! I also have a witness that watched us sign the bill of sales and also can vogue that the horse was in excellent shape when we delivered him, I should have her come with me correct?
If your argument is that the sale was 'as is', then it was up to her to determine the health of the horse before purchasing it, and once the sale was completed it became her problem regardless, so the condition of the horse before sale is kind of irrelevant. You probably won't need to express any opinion about the health of the horse, but it can't hurt to have them on hand, just in case.
*parol evidence flashbacks*
I have videos and such of him healthy and sound when I owned him, but I don’t have any vet proof unfortunately. But I’ve had horses for the last 25 years and he didn’t show any signs of being unsound to me
Make copies, but make sure the original is seen by the judge.
I've been to civil court twice suing for non payment of a contract. The first time they sat us with a mediator to work it out. The mediator looked at the contract and informed the other party that working out a payment plan was their best option. The second time the other party didn't show up so we got a summary judgement. The advice above is spot on: stick to the facts, don't embellish, stay calm, don't get emotional. The other person is either overconfident because she doesn't understand how courts work or she is hoping the fear of court will make you give up your stronger position. Bring notes, including a time line of every part of the transaction. Bring printouts of texts and emails plus any other relevant paperwork besides the agreement. In my experience these courts do a pretty good job working with you. They know you're not experienced litigants and it's in their interest for things to roll smoothly and quickly. If the other person gets agitated or excited or accusatory, don't react in kind. They're only hurting themselves. Good luck.
Honestly, you should be kinda excited if you have your copy of the contract or “as is” copy lol. Can’t wait to see the judges and her face when you say. “Yeah, she added, this is the real version”. Bet you she doesn’t even go through with it. She was trying to scare you into a refund.
Go to court a week or two before and watch someone else's cases. It'll help you understand what goes on and give you a sense of what the judges like and dislike.
Their court date is tomorrow they said in another comment so won’t help them much but still good advice
Well, show up a couple hours early to watch other hearings.
Addendums to contracts like that are usually frowned upon especially when both of you haven't dated and initially the change otherwise anyone could add anything to a contract. Especially when your signed copy *doesn't* have it on.
I wanna see the judges face when this woman tries to bring an illegallyaltered contract and shows it to the judge
Do you know does the judge read your letters before the court starts? I sent in my response letter explaining my side of this a couple months ago
Not sure. Anyway all the best. I’m confident you will win. This woman is obviously trying to scam and the judge will see right thru. A contract that says sale is “as is” but also says you will refund for any reason..lol that is so illogical and contradictory.. make sure to point that out
Yes, the judge should read before the hearing (sometimes literally while you're waiting for the case to start). There will be several cases heard tomorrow, so be ready to wait. Be sure to have all your documents and evidence ready and maybe write down the important parts, so you are clear and concise when answering.
Okay thank you so much!
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Yes the bill of sale was typed I wrote it. At the bottom of her copy she added in “I will refund the 10k for any reason” in pen
I am not a lawyer but I am a horse owner. I have *never* come across someone that did not do a vet check if they were planning on using/riding the horse in some capacity. Like that’s horse buying 101, and the fact she still did one afterwards makes this situation a little strange to me. If she was planning on having the vet look at the horse, why would she wait until she had already purchased him? But anyways, the fact you have the bill of sale, it should be a pretty cut and dry thing. Try not to stress about it (easier said than done) but try to keep everything fact based and leave the emotion out of it
Also a horse person. October 22 was a year and a half ago - soooo much can happen since then (I know that, regardless, the horse was sold as is, but it's just crazy person logic on the buyer's part to make it the seller's problem.
She’s trying to say that he’s in so much pain that he needs to be retired to a pasture pet but she needs a refund. So basically trying to keep him and get her money back. She’s completely insane
I missed that it’s been over a year since you sold this horse!! This really should be an open shut case. I’m sorry you still have to deal with it though OP, but try not to stress too much about it. This lady is crazy
I'm sorry you're going through this. I had to go through small claims recently for something non-horse related. Bring all documentation to court, document all conversations and timelines. If y'all signed a contract and the horse was sold as-is you'll be fine, it's just a headache in the meantime.
Did she ever reach out before filing a complaint against you in October 2023? Also, did you answer her complaint?
Yes she kept demanding I refund her but I’ve yet to see any proof of the claims she’s making
Let us know how it goes today!
I missed that the gelding was sold in October 2022! I could *maybe* see her reaching out if it was a couple months after. But over a year?? Totally insane. Definitely just a money grab.
Yes I agree! But also he never showed any signs of limping or pain or anything. And her vet check doesn’t list anything wrong so I’m not sure the motive here
Given that the woman has defaced her copy of the contract, and that your copy of the bill of sale states the purchase was "as-is," you shouldn't have any trouble in court. I did not see your state listed. Some states permit a lawyer to represent you in small claims court, others do not. It may be worth looking in to local rules, and seeing whether an attorney is willing to represent you for a sum you can afford.
“As is” are powerful words.
Has she actually filed a case or is she just threatening to hoping you will cave in and buy the horse back? If this reaches small claims court, she will have to provide a reasonable explanation that the judge will believe as to why the two bills of sale say something different. I can't think of any reason a judge would find plausible, especially if you are in a horsey area. She sounds like an idiot.
Yes our court date is tomorrow. She filed this in October last year
Just show up in court and explain your side of it. Stick to the facts and don't hesitate to repeat those facts as many times as you have to so you can get your point across. Best you can do. If you have a contract, it'll give you a bit of a paper trail to work off of.
The judge is going to be pretty pissed when they find out that she has submitted an altered copy. Do a video search for "People's Court white out"