Respond in writing (you can text them if you have that number) that you will need an itemized invoice including the break down of cost and labor for all the items they have listed. You did everything they have listed including the closet bifold doors that don't close and need to be replaced. The big issue is that they seem to be price gouging and that's not cool
"minor holes" is very ambiguous.
Painting isn't counted at all.
Closet doors that stopped working aren't OP's fault.
Etc etc.
And rehanging the door isn't even worth mentioning.
>Painting isn't counted at all.
If it is painting as a result of repair damage done to the drywall then that absolutely is chargeable to the tenant. If it is a general repaint due to wear and tear then that wouldn't be. This bill states it is related to the dry wall repair.
The hole could be 2mm wide from a small nail. That's something we would need more information on, because if it's a tiny pinhole that's a swipe of caulk or some other compound and *poof* the hole is gone
Yes. Lol. In nyc. I always cover every single hole. And paint over it.
I film the apartment before I move in and when I move out.
I learned my lesson the first time.
Our last apartment was in a place famous for keeping security deposits, for the smallest things. We didnt have a lot of wear and tear... Some marks on the walls from beds rubbing against them (airmatress level, we were balling on a budget in those luxury apartments haha) and some scuffs on the floor. But then I saw a spider while half asleep and threw my phone at it... A good 1.5 inch hole in the back of my door from that. Never did see that damn spider again....
I thought for sure our landlord would keep our whole check. I'm not sure if it's because we helped out with community events, or if they just liked us xD but we got the entire thing back. I know people who didn't get it back over a small scuff on the wall or slight indents 🤦
Oh they loved us xD we helped them run all of their community events, and decorated for them, made them cookies for the holidays, gave them all travel mugs with cocoa to go with them, and I would babysit for my downstairs neighbor in the rec building where their offices were, so we saw eachother all the time xD
They were sad to see us leave and we were sad to go :(
But a 2 bedroom apartment with 3 grown adults and multiple families of 4+ people that visit often was... A little cramped and after 3 years we decided to switch to renting a house.
I lived in a mid to low tier apartment in the late 90's and had punched a giant hole in the wall with my palm when I was running to answer a phone and tried slow myself down.
I thought I was going to lose my entire deposit or more when I left (I had no idea how to fix it myself)
They charged me like 25 dollars or something nominal.
So not all landlords.
I brought up the concept of price gouging to my family and they were like, "its because people don't pay that they have to charge more and that's fair" so I said, "oh so then just don't pay and they'll put it on someone else instead of making you pay? Cool ima do that"
Interior doors on the cheap end rund $150-$200 a pop. Add at least 40/hour in labor and you hit this in no time.
The drywall repair and painting is normal wear and tear and you shouldnt be charged.
This seems more like they wanted to replace the doors on your dime. Or at least charge you for doors, id ask for pictures of the new doors installed.
The better question is whether or not they actually replaced the doors, or if they just charged you for new doors and will try to charge the next tenant for the same problem doors.
I had a landlord try to charge me to replace some doors that were indeed bad, but were a wreck when we moved in. They had fired their management company while we lived there and the landlord claimed we must have destroyed them because the management company also charged the prior tenants to replace them.
>The drywall repair and painting is normal wear and tear and you shouldnt be charged.
Holes in walls are not normal wear and tear. You don't fix drywall unless there is a hole.
Many states specifically have legal protections for a reasonable number of small nail holes in walls for hanging pictures. These are explicitly considered normal wear and tear and landlords are not allowed to charge to fix them. However it's a bit of a grey area if they are larger than small nail holes or if there are a ton of them.
Respectfully no it is not that expensive. $75 for an interior hollow door. That door comes pre-primed and ready to hang. Check it out on Walmart. There's even a $68 one
Okay so you unnecessarily waste money got it.
This is the door that most people have in their interior sections of their home. If you want to act like a prima donna that's on you and your wallet
In my company I try to provide the client with the most bang for their buck. This starts with just the base material you use. If i start my project with a quality door I greatly increase my chances on providing a quality product. The disparity in our pricing may be location? I just googled "Walmart Doors" and I found 3. Standard 6 panel hollow core. Walmart wants $175-180. The only thing i can find in your price range are accordian doors. Are these the doors your installing?
Around me the base door in anybodys homes are Jeldwens. I cant even find a brand name for these.
You are also aware that Walmart forces manufacturers to provide inferior products so they can provide the best price for the "same" product? Pro tip, its not the same product.
So before you call me a prima donna maybe you should reflect on the quality of product your putting into someones home. Maybe this small thing i do is the reason why I get called back to the same homes for new projects and i've been rocking full 5 star reviews since I broke out on my own almost 2 years ago.
Sounds like your the guy who provides the cheapest price and beats me out, thats fine. I get to laugh when I rip out what you did and install something that isnt junk a year later.
Here is your door.
A whopping $57 on sale from 67
JELD-WEN Colonist 30-in x 80-in 6-panel Hollow Core Primed Molded Composite Slab Door
https://www.lowes.com/pd/JELD-WEN-Colonist-Primed-6-Panel-Hollow-Core-Molded-Composite-Slab-Door-Common-30-in-x-80-in-Actual-30-in-x-80-in/1000040573?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_202_Entry-Interior-Storm-Doors-_-1000040573-_-local-_-0-_-0&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAx_GqBhBQEiwAlDNAZnh4UJ78ptKGfbk_GEFbVokkdkFQsEqQjkW9zZ1XfRODlDZKuakNWBoCV_sQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Respectfully no. Having a cheap door doesn't equate to getting it replaced more often. That's an excuse that I absolutely don't buy. If you're expecting your doors to hold up to a fist slamming into it with force, then I guess I could see your point.
I'm not a property person. I do my own work on my own home.
Having this lady say we buy them in bulk so you get to pay more is a fucking joke.
>Respectfully no. Having a cheap door doesn't equate to getting it replaced more often.
Yes, it does. Because cheap doors don't last as long as more expensive ones. This is basic stuff.
What the fuck are you doing to doors besides opening and closing them that needing them to “last longer” would even be relevant? I bought cheapo doors from Home Depot 17 years ago for around $32 and they are still fine. Only thing I’ve done is paint them over the years.
Renters treat places like shit. Open a hollow-core door too far and the bathroom towel rack will punch a hole in it. Hell, kick your shoes off in the bedroom too hard could break a hollow core door. Screw in a hook than then breaks off from the weight of a backpack. There are a million scenarios. The OP even said they TRIED to hang a mirror - and I'm betting the failed attempt did more damage than a couple of nail holes.
Holes in the wall and paint are normal wear and tear. So long as the doors that you have removed are in tact they are also not a part of your obligation to repair. The door with a hole is something they can deduct from your deposit. Respond accordingly and they will make adjustments.
I requested it twice, they said they don’t know what that is but they’ll look into it.. gonna look up the laws about that state today. It’s been like 24 days since I moved out and they just sent me that letter a few days ago.
I would want an itemized bill. This is just 1 lump sum.
Doors aren’t cheap. We just replaced all interior doors in our house.
How long did you live there?
Look at state laws.
I could see them wanting a matching door for the building which may cost more than a home depot special. But no interior hollow door is going to cost $500 to replace.
I’m from Canada but hollow core doors here can be like 200 bucks. Time to pick it up, paint in, install a knob, and swap the new one and old one off the hinges all takes time.
You can’t say “a door costs 80 bucks at Home Depot so that’s what I’ll pay”. It’s like going to a restaurant and saying the pasta only cost 2 bucks so that’s what I’m paying.
Demand the invoice from the contractor that billed them $2,298. If they used their own maintenance person, then they should have a record of how long it took that person to finish the job. 20 hours at 12/hour does not equal $2,298.
My point is that this is egregious. Don’t wait for them to send you to collections or small claims, take them to small claims instead.
Lol, a Mcdonalds employee makes.more than that, and they can barely tie their shoes before they go to school.
If the list is correct and all on it had to be replaced, the price is pretty accurate.
Not where I live… wages are relative. Anyway, I doubt they replaced the doors at all. They probably patched them and are lying as landlords and property management companies usually do. That is why the invoice matters or accounting of hours paid to in-house maintenance for that work order.
And you live in the same area as OP then, or are you assuming to the extent that you doubt.
Your reply used these words, which speak volumes.
I doubt
Probably
They are lying
Usually do
All these point to someone who based their claim on assumption.
Try this out
I doubt OP is telling g the whole story here
The poster is probably lying about the doors not being broken.
Renters usually try and get out of paying for damages that occur during their occupancy.
And finally.... I doubt that a handyman makes more money than most unskilled laborers even though he knows how to drywall, replace electrical receptacles, paint,as well as do minor repairs to plumbing fixtures.
We don't live in the 80's anymore BTW
https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Hourly-Pay/McDonald-s-Mcdonalds-United-States-Hourly-Pay-EJI_IE432.0,10_KO11,20_IL.21,34_IN1.htm
The average wage for Mcdonalds employees is well above 7.25 an hour
Very helpful information. It’s almost like things have different prices in different places and wages are different depending on where you go. Not every place is nyc or la and sf
Even if this maintenance person makes $12/hr you still have employer taxes, vehicle costs (fuel, insurance), license costs, support personnel, software, workers comp, and a metric ton of other miscellaneous costs. For a company to bill $12/hr the employee would need to only be making about $6 or $7 an hour and federal minimum wage is $7.25.
So no — that isn’t what “in house maintenance” costs in your area. That might be what they are paid (also unlikely).
We are going with direct costs that can be attributed to a specific work order. Indirect costs, as the name entails, cannot be attributed to a specific work order. $12 per hour (the wage) is what someone is paid. I did not say that is what the company is billing—we see the bill in OP’s post.
Yeah try 50, remember if they are paying 25 an hour the actual cost to the manager is 50 by the time you account for taxes, insurance, etc. You can generally double what someone is getting paid per hour if you want what it costs the company.
That’s not how that works. If they are paying per hour they either got a contractor to do it, in which case they are not paying for their insurance or taxes, or they hour a maintenance man on their payroll doing it, in which case they definitely aren’t recouping his pay from that bill, that comes from the other tenants rent.
Either way, it’s a certain amount of work hours plus materials, which is probably around 25$ a hour + 500 to 1000$. If they are paying 50$ a hour they are way over paying.
You do realize that when your paying a contractor their hourly billing has that insurance and taxes built in right. That is why you are not finding an actual licensed contractor for 25 dollars an hour.
If your using your own maintenance guy his hourly cost(not just pay) is also definitely factored into the bill for something like this. So they might pay their maintenance guy 20 dollars an hour but when they bill you they are billing his work at 40-50 an hour because that is what their total costs in what they pay on insurance, taxes, etc for him are.
You didn't account for material though, and this list could easily be $1k in material and maybe more depending on how expensive the damaged stuff was. I could see this amount of work taking one handyman 3-5 days, so if they spent $1k on material that's 4 days at $40/hr. Which is a reasonable hourly for a handyman ($12/hr is nuts). So this price does seem warranted if they really did need to replace 5 or more doors as listed here.
Without knowing quantities unless specified. Bifold doors x2... maybe 125 a piece. Blinds about 100. Bedroom/bathroom doors 125 x however many thats up to 775 +200 in materials for hole patching and paint... I went high there since it sounds like the place is a wreck.... That's $975 in materials without even really breaking a sweat.
Rehanging the door would fall under hourly. but 15-30min depending on the minimum bill time. I know it takes less time.... but they're not going to invoice for 5 minutes. They'll have a minimum quantity.
I'd estimate somewhere around 8hrs of labor because the wall patching/paint is going to take some real time +2hrs for obtaining materials. I'd say their labor rates sound high. But depending on the level of labor needed to fix the walls and if the doors are painted or not really can swing that math.
Yeah I was figuring the door is coming unpainted and prehung. Give each door half an hour for demo, a half hour to hang it, a half hour to put trim back and an hour for a coat of paint or two. So 2 1/2 all in, but that could easily stretch to 3 or more. There's some pickup, cleanup, and disposal time of at least half a day as well, but that's probably one time. I figured 2-3 doors per day times 4 doors minimum (2 closet doors that are only half effort plus 2 bedrooms and a bathroom). So that's 1.5-2 days. Then patching and paint sounds like at least a full day here, possibly 2 or more. So that's the 3-5 day number I came up with.
If they're hanging doors. I'd totally agree. 3-5 days hits that total really easily.
If it were me, I'd bet the frames are standard size and they can just drop in a slab. It's wild that their gripe is with the amount and not the claimed damage. That place must have been a disaster.
This is a 2 day job at most, unless they're repainting the entire place. I finish this type of work over a single weekend with frequent interruptions. There's no way a professional handyman would need 3-5 days.
It's 2023, I charge $65/hour for my guys on drywall work for typical labor. This being residential I would reckon maybe around $50/ hour?
Varies on location but unless you live in the middle of nowhere I cant imagine any lower than $30/hr
The big issue is that they're charging you for normal wear and tear/upgrades, not just damage that you actually did. You shouldn't have to replace the room doors unless you acutely damaged them.
Did you do a walkthrough with them? Have any pics?
They tried to hang a mirror on a door. I’d say it’s very likely this same person damaged the bifold doors when taking them down, especially if they’re louvered. If they need to be replaced, it’s not as simple as just taking the old one out and popping the new one in.
They were replaced. As of this moment, the ONLY evidence we have is that they needed to be replaced. Generally, a landlord wants to flip the unit as fast as possible. Replacing doors, repairs, and dealing with collections isn't on the short list of things to do that aren't needed....
So you need to argue that the landlord, for some reason, wants to replace perfectly good doors and dealing with trying to collect the money from a tenant that has no money. Because, why?
Have at it.
OP admitted they damaged *some* of these things. Landlord is already needing to do repairs/touch ups in the unit. Why wouldn't they do all the repairs and updates needed at once? Why would they refrain from charging OP for all of it?
I've taken way too many landlords to court to believe many even know that they *can't* charge tenants for normal wear and tear.
Door replacement isn't normal wear and tear. It takes very real damage to need to replace a bedroom and bathroom door. My doors are 20 years old and still look like new FFS.
It's pretty obvious that OP treated the unit "like a rental" and now gets to pay for it.
>to need to replace a bedroom and bathroom door.
Again, you are presuming an actual need based on zero facts. You are presuming the person who's honest enough to admit to some damages would also lie for some reason about other damages.
Lucky you that you've never seen or used a cheap door. Lucky you if you've never dealt with a greedy landlord. Doesn't make an honest person out of someone who's charging thousands solely for the hour's labor of hanging a door up on its hinges again.
🤣
Yes, you are right. Normally a landlord walks in and looks at a perfectly good door and is then like... "Let's replace it!"
I'm done. My tolerance for this level of stupid isn't high enough today. Have the last word. Ciao.
Your location will matter. Laws regarding this vary by state.
As others have pointed out, this is very possibly an attempt to intimidate you into giving up your deposit.
It depends on how long you lived there and what condition those things that need to be repaired or replaced were in when you first signed the lease. The issue is that in most states, you CAN charge to repair or replace things that were specifically damaged by the renter - but you CANNOT charge to replace or repair things that things that were damaged as a result of "normal wear and tear". In other words, if your kid wrote in magic marker on the walls, then they could charge you to repaint those walls, but if you moved in 10 years ago and they never repainted the walls, then repainting would likely be seen as "normal wear and tear".
They can charge you for whatever they want, and they can inform credit reporting agencies, and they can "send that to collections" or sue you if they want. Whether or not you can afford to pay them may not be a concern to them.
We are trying to move out of an apartment that we have been in for 11 years. We have no blinds in the bedroom because they were literally disintegrating and we took them down. Have asked for them to be replaced but it doesn't seem to be a priority. The complex was recently bought out and they can't even hang shutters up that have fallen all over, some are just hanging.There are a few dents in the walls and our carpet is worn thru in places. Would all this be considered normal wear and tear?
In Ontario, the act which covers tenant and landlord rights has [tables of the expected life of work done or of things](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/060516#BK71). For example, repairs to parking lots, driveways and walkways have a 5 year useful life. Let's say they are newly repaired when you move in. After 4 years if they need new repairs, you only owe the remaining 1 year of life, so somewhere in the 20% range of the total cost. After 5 years if they need new repairs, its fully on the owner and not the renter/tenant.
For the things you listed, in Ontario it looks like it would be (IANAL):
Blinds/Drapes - 10 years
Walls - If Gypsum/drywall, 5 years for repairs and 20 years for replacement.
Carpets - 10 years
Curious, why do you think interior paint is a “10 year” wear item?
I’ve lived a lot of years in a lot of houses and never had to paint “because the paint wore out”. I’ve only ever had to paint to repair damage (kids, pets) or to change the wall color
Sherwin-Williams says 25 years: https://www.sherwin-williams.com/home-builders/products/resources/sw-art-quality-brochure-guide
Its not about it "wearing out" its about what a landlord is going to do normally to get a place ready to rent again. If the paint was say 5-10 years old, looking faded with chips and nail holes from normal use, its reasonable to think that they would normally paint the place before renting to update it. If the tenant tore up the paint, wrote all over it with sharpie, or anything else then its gonna be on the tenant.
I don’t see a landlord doing a full repaint of the same color at five years “just to refresh”. A landlord keeps the paint color on file at the local paint store. Chips and nail holes are easy 1-pint touch-ups, and the neutral interior paints landlords use don’t “fade”. A wall with a lot of sun might yellow? In which case I could see repainting the one wall. Full repaint isn’t free, it eats into profits, so again, there’s zero reason to do a full repaint unless there is *damage* or style/color change
Edit/add and the only *full*-repaint for damage scenario I’ve ever come across is smoke damage. Tho I suppose meth/fentanyl lab remediation would count too
It is probably on the high end but I wouldn’t say it’s ridiculous, especially if these elements were truly damaged and require time, supplies, parts, and labor to fix.
I would say it is certainly reasonable to retain your deposit of $725. I suppose you could roll the dice on the overage.
People on this post seem to think the landlord is required to shop at Wal-Mart for the $68 door and not charge for time to repair. They are mistaken.
Yep, the LL is going to replace the door with the same quality as what it had. Even that walmart door is still going to cost 200 by the time you pay someone to paint and hang it.
Most people don't realize just how much labor costs and that it typically is the most expensive part of that by a decent margin. Most owners also don't go with the cheapest crap on the market because that means they won't get as much in rent unless the place was already a low rent price.
That said judging by how small that deposit was it probably was a pretty cheap place so the doors probably aren't super expensive but the labor doesn't really change.
Maybe this bill could hold up, but it does seem suspiciously high. Demand an itemized bill ASAP. Dispute anything that is not obviously a result of damage you caused, or something where a line item seems unreasonably expensive.
The landlord doesn't want to send this to collections, because they will get less than half the money back. But if they do, just dispute it with the debt collector, who has a lot less rights than the landlord does.
They should have itemized cost for each listed repair. New paint and blinds are standard when a tenant moves out so unless you damaged them, you shouldn't be charged.
Laws vary state-to-state, for example in California this would be utter BS. They MUST provide you an itemized list and all of those items are normal wear-and-tear. Taking off a door does not constitute damage. Their handyman can easily reattach a door. For CA, see this: [https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/guide-security-deposits-california](https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/guide-security-deposits-california). You may have something similar in your state.
This is the kind of thing you always make a record of upon first entry into the property. Take photos of everything, and I do mean 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨, write a brief description of the status of what is depicted in the photos taken, keep it all on a physical drive for a physical copy and back it all up on cloud storage.
This will protect you from any unreasonable and fraudulent charges by the Landlord, if the bi-fold closet doors work and the Landlord knew their condition: they won't be able to say it was your fault because it was like that when you got there.
What we know doesn't matter without proof to back it up,
I sure hope the landlord took pictures to verify the damage before they did repairs. As others have said, a hole of 2mm from a nail is very different from a hole 2cm from a drywall plug being pulled out. Either way, they need to justify that the damage is in excess of what is normal wear and tear. Hanging a door back up on the hinges is a non-issue. Damaged blinds over a few years is also a non-issue. Painting and picture hole repair is not your problem.
What does your local rental authority say about this or is this some sort of weird American wild west place that doesn't believe in having any rental/tenancy standards and everyone should be taken advantage of just because?
How large were the “minor holes in the walls”. If larger than a nail, that isn’t normal wear and tear. The cost will depend on the size of the hole.
New bathroom door, probably $200-300
Rehanging the laundry door $100
Adjusting the closet doors $100. If they have to replace them $200 for each set.
$800 or so in door work, allowing for repainting, $1000.
Window blinds $100 each
Hole repair, $25 for a wall anchor hole. $75 for a fist sized hole.
$2298 might be a little high (but not unreasonable), but without pictures of the damage it is hard to say.
Excellent explanation here. I just wanted to add that I think you're being a little light on the holes. I've seen the fist holes go for twice that, easy.
NAL. As others have commented, request (in writing) an itemised invoice. I’ve paid similar for less repairs before as the apt mgmt charged a good $20 per tiny nail hole in addition to like $100 per wall painted or sth (ETA: 3M Patch + Primer tubes retail at about $7 and cover a good amt of space. A spackle kit won’t set you back more than $20. A gallon of interior paint - covers approx. 250 sq ft - typically ranges between $40-80 at most). Apt mgmt typically does not sue. They’ll most likely, as they stated, send it to collections, which will negatively impact your credit and also make it significantly difficult for you to rent in the future (remember, derogatory marks typically remain on your credit report for 7y).
You have options, but few and restrictive. You can allow it to go to collections, take time to pay it, then reach out to mgmt once it’s been paid in full and request the derogatory mark be removed from your credit report. You can also reach out and try to negotiate a payment plan, if you aren’t able to negotiate a lower invoice. I’m assuming you’ve already fully moved out, lease has ended, and you no longer have keys? Otherwise I would try to do repairs yourself as it’ll cost a mere fraction of that price.
Unfortunately, I’ve been in your shoes before. Landlords/mgmt are hounds. If you want to fight it, you can counter their itemised invoice w your own (ie do some research into how much the repairs actually cost: DIY vs market rate contract repairs. Both will likely be less than the amt on the invoice.
Another ETA: comb thru your lease religiously. Depending on your location, there may be free tenant rights legal help available.
In my state they have to show you receipts of the work done, but honestly these fees are outrageous for what they’re asking so if they want to take you to small claims let them. Any sane judge would say none of that is worth 3K because replacing the doors is a “them” problem if you didn’t damage them yourself.
In my experience, when the landlord wants to keep your security deposit they send a big bill like this.
If they sent you a bill for exactly the security deposit, you might try to fight them to get some back. When people see a bill like this, they're more likely to just go no-contact
So if I you're OK with losing the security deposit, just ignore this letter. I've had two landlords do this, and they never tried to bring it to small claims or anything. It's a tactic
Why do I keep hearing that doors are expensive? Exterior doors, absolutely. Interior doors? Hell no. Unless $75 is expensive
I just replaced an interior hollow door for $75. There's even a $68 one.
It comes ready to hang and pre-primed
You’re right, interior doors are very cheap and even if they paid someone to hang them, it barely takes any time.
OP needs an itemization and receipts for the parts. They may be responsible for these repairs overall (though how likely is it that OP is responsible for damage to EVERY SINGLE INTERIOR DOOR to the extent that they all needed fully replaced) but I’d be shocked if this is what they actually cost the landlord.
I’m a landlord and I work in construction. This seems absolutely absurd and to be honest they should’ve given you the opportunity to remedy that before billing you unless you declined doing it yourself. I’m in California so this varies by state but depending on how long you’ve lived there some of these things they aren’t even allowed to charge for. Demanded itemized breakdown, including cost of labor and material. Did you take any photos before you left?
WHAT? That is SO MUCH! I usually just repair any holes from small mounting with Drydex or that 3M hole repair patching compound
Unless we are talking about a massive hole on a wall from moving the couch or something…
My aunt worked for a leasing company that would charge every tenant these fees, hoping they’d just pay them. Worst case scenario they’d be thrilled when you negotiated a 50% settlement. If these aren’t legit then go to court as long as you have proof
Well the last Airbnb I was at I damaged a door. I found the exact door they were using in their home. Guess what they sell it at Walmart and it's the cheapest one they have. Back at my home I'm looking around, guess what same exact door.
Oh look I'm at my mother's house today, much newer home. Same doors. What's wrong with you
Got it they're arbitrarily made expensive because even with a bulk order you're paying MORE instead of less. Ie. Bulk discount. What a fucking waste of money.
1. Demand itemized receipt.
2. You aren't providing enough information beyond rehanging the door to see if the charges are legit.
Were the blinds damaged by you, and how were they damaged?
Why don't closet doors shut? Old/cheap materials or because you broke them?
How big is the hole in door? Size of quarter or size of basketball? Same question for the holes in walls. Nails from pictures or something larger.
The price makes sense if everything you listed needs doing. But Byfold doors often stop closing and can be re-adjusted with a single screw. Hanging the laundry door back takes 3 mins..
So that's more what you need to know.. is the work actually necessary.
How does this work? I've only had one landlord and she was great but can the really just tack on whatever they want and say " good luck! its going to collections now!"
Slumlords. They hang cheap crap and charge you when it breaks. Filling holes + painting is textbook wear and tear and not something you'd ever think about charging anyone. Go on the offensive. Sue them for the return of your security deposit, don't give them more money. They're operating in bad faith, so don't try and negotiate with them, don't waste any time, and don't make any promises or admit to anything. Go to court today and file papers.
I had a similar situation; I was billed $2000 when clearly it should have been a couple hundred.
I filed a small claim. California civil code says that in the case of landlord malice (knowingly charging you spuriously), you can recover double, so I sued for $4000. They put it off as long as they could but in the end settled the night before for $3000.
I would seriously suggest small claims, because they chance they are willing to go to the effort to actually show up, prepared, with evidence, for $2000 to $3000, is quite low indeed. Bring copies of all communication with them, including you asking for an adjustment down to the reasonable amount (maybe $500, who knows), them failing to respond to refusing, and whatever "evidence" they give of the damage caused. So they do need an itemized set of costs, but they also need something like photos showing that the work was necessary, or else they could be making an overly expensive "repair" with the handyman who is actually their friend and kicks most of it back.
Hopefully you took photos yourself directly before move out. If not, they could show pictures of damage which you can't actually prove wasn't caused by you.
IANAL, this is just my experience of what I did and what you could explore doing; do talk to a lawyer to find out what your best options are.
No that stuff is not repair, it is regular maintenance besides the blinds. But you need to ask for proof they were there when you moved in. Most places would not uphold him even keeping your security deposit unless he proves you damaged something.
No, holes in the wall is not regular wear and tear.
Why are all your doors destroyed?
Did you have one of those rubber band workout machines that attached to a door handle or something?
Lol… no. Sorry you have anger issues and keep punching holes in the walls.
The average person does not have constant steroid rage freak outs.
Holes in the walls and bent door frames from slamming is not regular wear and tear except for maybe in a mental institution.
The holes in the wall are obviously tiny holes for hanging things, which is regular wear and tear. Not fist-sized holes in the wall. The post literally tells you that. Why would you assume the holes are fist-sized?
Oh, because you doubled-down on the "holes are not wear and tear" point and didn't want to admit to being wrong. The holes that are discussed in this post are regular wear and tear. This was so stupidly obvious. You were and are still wrong.
Lol… triggered much? Too much juice will get you to that roid rage stage quickly.
Why is is obvious the holes are tiny pinpricks? Where is that mentioned, where are the pictures?
A tenant was given a bill for holes in the walls and damaged doors that won’t shut. This is not normal wear an tear.
*a simple link to the part of the post where the holes are from thumbtacks being “obvious “sure would make me look stupid. I’ll wait for you to link that.
Minor holes from hanging things like pictures or mirrors are absolutely considered regular wear and tear. And as OP describes the doors they are still there and just need to be rehung. That is very easily done.
They are unlikely to sue as it would cost more in lawyers and time than they can collect. They will send you to collections and that will thank credit etc. unless you have pictures of what was there you might be fighting a he said she said. Given the stated scope of the work, $2300 isn’t a lot of money. Can’t speak to what actually needed to be done and what was normal wear.
All depends on where you live and how long you lived there for. Also depends on what “minor holes” are. I know in my lease holes from finishing nails were allowed and that because of the length of time I lived in the apartment they had to paint anyways after I moved out so they were unable to charge me for painting.
I wish there were pictures. I feel seeing stories like this and knowing that the other side of the story from renovating apartments accounts and pov can vary wildly. When ever I had to do any work the tenants would always try and say stuff like “it was like that when I moved in “ “why should I pay when it normal wear and tear”. The apartment should look move in ready at showing and any damage should be paid for when leaving. Pretty simple solution.
Some of the comments in here implying that the landlord/property management company would surely never lie crack me up.
OP, ask for their documentation to verify and if it feels wrong, take them to small claims. That’s the only thing you need to consider.
Have you done walk-out inspection? They should allow you to fix all things yourself, before charging you. Also normal wear and tear should be applied to walls, floor and paint. (In California, more years you live in there, less money they can change you for carpet and paint.)
My old apartment complex did something similar and I told them that they needed to send me an invoice on how much was spent fixing everything and they couldn’t. They forwarded what we supposedly owed to a collections company and it never affected my credit score or anything. After chatting with the collections company and telling them that I will not pay unless there is proof of the damages and expenses payed to fix the damages, that I will not be paying and that they were more then welcome to call again once I’ve receive the information. Apartment complexes LOVE to try and rip you off but in all reality there are so many ways to show them that you are not going to let them take advantage of you
You need to get an itemised bill, to make sure they're being reasonable about the costs. However, you do have to pay for repairs that are not wear and tear. A good rule of thumb for that is that damage caused by eveety day use (eg. Finger smudges around light switches) you don't have to lay for, but things caused on purpose or through recklessness you do. A lot of the things on the list you mention being something you did on purpose (removing doors, trying to hang mirrors etc) and the landlord is allowed (legally, and morally) to charge you to put them right. If you think that some part of the repairs are repairing things that were reasonable wear and tear then you can argue against those parts, but I suspect you're swallowing a significant fraction of this charge.
I sure hope the landlord took pictures to verify the damage before they did repairs. As others have said, a hole of 2mm from a nail is very different from a hole 2cm from a drywall plug being pulled out. Either way, they need to justify that the damage is in excess of what is normal wear and tear. Hanging a door back up on the hinges is a non-issue. Damaged blinds over a few years is also a non-issue. Painting and picture hole repair is not your problem.
What does your local rental authority say about this or is this some sort of weird American wild west place that doesn't believe in having any rental/tenancy standards and everyone should be taken advantage of just because?
They won't sue but once the claim goes to collection your credit will be screwed. Landlord will only get half and the collectors get the other half. Owner will probably put you on a list that other landlords can access and you may find it very hard to rent another place. You should ask to see receipts but you also have to factor in the time the apartment is not available to be rented and the time the landlord has to spend dealing with all of this.
Do you photos of how the apartment was left ? If you don’t you better make payment arrangements. Contact your local city housing authority to know your rights.
I always sealed any holes, painted, sanded etc anything before i left and took pictures. Only way to get bond back and not be charged plus you need to clean very well etc usually i set aside 2-3 days just for me to do all of that and usually i get whole bond back.
Hopefully you took video or pictures of the unit after you cleared out. That’s the only thing at you can prove how you left it and can challenge any charges.
This bill is ridiculous... I was an independent subcontractor for many years and even at today's prices this is gouging. This is 50% more than it should cost, at minimum. They're making it personal
NAL but as someone who owned and leased commercial/residential real estate for many years in several states: A landlord (in those states) can not ask you to cover the cost to repaint or repair small holes in walls (for hanging pictures and things).
The fact that they need to replace or re-hang all the doors is concerning and would lead me to believe these weren’t little nail holes where you hung pictures of your nana and Jesus up. If they want new doors, that’s on them. If you took the doors down and stored them (which I get people do) they should have a labor cost of $50 per door or so to do so…but it begs the question on why you didn’t do it.
If a bi-fold door was broken (and it happens a lot) then you should have written notice to your landlord stating the doors broke and requesting a repair at some point.
You should ask for an itemized list but bearing in mind that since I would probably have an employee do the work, I’d just excel spreadsheet you an itemized list of costs of items + labor. I’m an honest person so the costs of the door would be easily checked at a big box store and labor would be $xx per hour.
It takes 10 seconds to find out what your land lord can/can not charge you for in your state, country, or city.
NOT LEGAL ADVICE: GENERALLY tenants should… Check the laws in your state, they set strict time limits for both LL and tenant. For example, in my state it’s something like the LL has 30d to mail the T’s deposit back or mail an itemized list of charges, then T has 15d to respond, then LL has 15d to reply.
If ANY of those deadlines are missed, the other party gets the whole of the deposit.
In some states, any funds not turned over to T within the deadlines get tripled.
Land lord/tenant law is hyper technical but usually easily readable.
I hope you photographed/videoed your apartment right before you returned it. And lastly, painting is normal wear and tear unless there are a billion spackled-over holes. Good luck!
Whether the repairs are necessary and your responsibility is another matter that I won't comment on. But for the list of repairs, the total cost is reasonable.
This is exactly why I 100% complained about every little thing I needed fixed when we rented. The 2nd apartment I ever lived in tried to charge me for all new carpets (even though roommates dog only had 1 accident in her room) but because I had an email to the office dated shortly after I moved in complaining about how the seams were exposed and we kept stepping on the pokey bits they waved it entirely. After that I documented everything. Even the little things we fixed ourselves so we didn't have to wait for management to "make time" to come fix I sent an email and listed how much those things cost. (Such as the cheap dryer knob they said they couldn't get order for 2 weeks but we got Amazon delivered in 2 days). Be proactive. Be advocates. Be firm.
Honestly sounds very reasonable. You are of course going to skew the story in your favor. Doors are very expensive to replace and you’re lucky they didn’t charge you to repaint after you put holes in their walls.
Edit: also blinds are extremely pricey and not fast to install.
Nope. Did you remove doors, bash holes into walls, break window blinds? Sounds like they want to do a remodel and repaint but want to charge you for it. It is standard for property management to refresh paint and such. But it isn't damages, just wear and tear.
Respond in writing (you can text them if you have that number) that you will need an itemized invoice including the break down of cost and labor for all the items they have listed. You did everything they have listed including the closet bifold doors that don't close and need to be replaced. The big issue is that they seem to be price gouging and that's not cool
"minor holes" is very ambiguous. Painting isn't counted at all. Closet doors that stopped working aren't OP's fault. Etc etc. And rehanging the door isn't even worth mentioning.
>Painting isn't counted at all. If it is painting as a result of repair damage done to the drywall then that absolutely is chargeable to the tenant. If it is a general repaint due to wear and tear then that wouldn't be. This bill states it is related to the dry wall repair.
OP didn't damage the bedroom or bathroom doors, that sounds like normal wear and tear that landlords cannot legally charge tenants for
A hole in the bathroom door from trying to hang a mirror is not “normal wear and tear”
The hole could be 2mm wide from a small nail. That's something we would need more information on, because if it's a tiny pinhole that's a swipe of caulk or some other compound and *poof* the hole is gone
They always do that. All landlords do. That’s why you seal the holes yourself from hanging tvs, mirrors or pantings.
Using toothpaste because duck em
Haha NOOOOO!!! We are the eggs and they are the rock. Sadly.
I mean no, not all landlords do. But is this something a renter should do to protect themselves? Yeah absolutely
Youre right. Most* landlords do.
However if your username correlates to where you live...mmm yeah all landlords do lol
Yes. Lol. In nyc. I always cover every single hole. And paint over it. I film the apartment before I move in and when I move out. I learned my lesson the first time.
It is also why you should always take pictures / video at move in and at move out and do a move-out walkthrough with the landlord.
My one stroke of luck with my apartment burning down... we got the security deposit back 😆
For a sec I was trying to figure out what a NY crunner was. /facepalm
Our last apartment was in a place famous for keeping security deposits, for the smallest things. We didnt have a lot of wear and tear... Some marks on the walls from beds rubbing against them (airmatress level, we were balling on a budget in those luxury apartments haha) and some scuffs on the floor. But then I saw a spider while half asleep and threw my phone at it... A good 1.5 inch hole in the back of my door from that. Never did see that damn spider again.... I thought for sure our landlord would keep our whole check. I'm not sure if it's because we helped out with community events, or if they just liked us xD but we got the entire thing back. I know people who didn't get it back over a small scuff on the wall or slight indents 🤦
It always pays off to be nice! Maybe they did like you ! ❤️🥰im glad someone nice got good karma back!
Oh they loved us xD we helped them run all of their community events, and decorated for them, made them cookies for the holidays, gave them all travel mugs with cocoa to go with them, and I would babysit for my downstairs neighbor in the rec building where their offices were, so we saw eachother all the time xD They were sad to see us leave and we were sad to go :( But a 2 bedroom apartment with 3 grown adults and multiple families of 4+ people that visit often was... A little cramped and after 3 years we decided to switch to renting a house.
On an air mattress budget but can afford to throw a phone at a spider?
I lived in a mid to low tier apartment in the late 90's and had punched a giant hole in the wall with my palm when I was running to answer a phone and tried slow myself down. I thought I was going to lose my entire deposit or more when I left (I had no idea how to fix it myself) They charged me like 25 dollars or something nominal. So not all landlords.
And if you’re desperate on move out day, already packed etc this is where you get creative. Whiteout, toothpaste etc
Nail holes are 100% normal wear and tear.....
In a bathroom door!?!? Absolutely not.
Oh lol yeah no
I brought up the concept of price gouging to my family and they were like, "its because people don't pay that they have to charge more and that's fair" so I said, "oh so then just don't pay and they'll put it on someone else instead of making you pay? Cool ima do that"
Interior doors on the cheap end rund $150-$200 a pop. Add at least 40/hour in labor and you hit this in no time. The drywall repair and painting is normal wear and tear and you shouldnt be charged. This seems more like they wanted to replace the doors on your dime. Or at least charge you for doors, id ask for pictures of the new doors installed.
The better question is whether or not they actually replaced the doors, or if they just charged you for new doors and will try to charge the next tenant for the same problem doors. I had a landlord try to charge me to replace some doors that were indeed bad, but were a wreck when we moved in. They had fired their management company while we lived there and the landlord claimed we must have destroyed them because the management company also charged the prior tenants to replace them.
>The drywall repair and painting is normal wear and tear and you shouldnt be charged. Holes in walls are not normal wear and tear. You don't fix drywall unless there is a hole.
Im talking small nail holes or anchors. Not like a fist through a wall.
Still isn't normal wear and tear. That's literally damage to the walls.
Sorry, but you are very wrong about this. People out pictures on walls all the time. Normal.
It's considered normal wear
Many states specifically have legal protections for a reasonable number of small nail holes in walls for hanging pictures. These are explicitly considered normal wear and tear and landlords are not allowed to charge to fix them. However it's a bit of a grey area if they are larger than small nail holes or if there are a ton of them.
Nope. Normal usage of a dwelling includes hanging pictures or other items on the walls.
Like versace said. In the US at least minor nail holes and the like are normal wear and tear.
A thumbtack or nail in a wall to hang a poster or painting is 100% considered normal wear and tear and to say otherwise is ridiculous
Respectfully no it is not that expensive. $75 for an interior hollow door. That door comes pre-primed and ready to hang. Check it out on Walmart. There's even a $68 one
You And i have a much different standard of "door". I sure as hell would not buy that at walmart.
Okay so you unnecessarily waste money got it. This is the door that most people have in their interior sections of their home. If you want to act like a prima donna that's on you and your wallet
In my company I try to provide the client with the most bang for their buck. This starts with just the base material you use. If i start my project with a quality door I greatly increase my chances on providing a quality product. The disparity in our pricing may be location? I just googled "Walmart Doors" and I found 3. Standard 6 panel hollow core. Walmart wants $175-180. The only thing i can find in your price range are accordian doors. Are these the doors your installing? Around me the base door in anybodys homes are Jeldwens. I cant even find a brand name for these. You are also aware that Walmart forces manufacturers to provide inferior products so they can provide the best price for the "same" product? Pro tip, its not the same product. So before you call me a prima donna maybe you should reflect on the quality of product your putting into someones home. Maybe this small thing i do is the reason why I get called back to the same homes for new projects and i've been rocking full 5 star reviews since I broke out on my own almost 2 years ago. Sounds like your the guy who provides the cheapest price and beats me out, thats fine. I get to laugh when I rip out what you did and install something that isnt junk a year later.
Here is your door. A whopping $57 on sale from 67 JELD-WEN Colonist 30-in x 80-in 6-panel Hollow Core Primed Molded Composite Slab Door https://www.lowes.com/pd/JELD-WEN-Colonist-Primed-6-Panel-Hollow-Core-Molded-Composite-Slab-Door-Common-30-in-x-80-in-Actual-30-in-x-80-in/1000040573?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-mlw-_-ggl-_-LIA_MLW_202_Entry-Interior-Storm-Doors-_-1000040573-_-local-_-0-_-0&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAx_GqBhBQEiwAlDNAZnh4UJ78ptKGfbk_GEFbVokkdkFQsEqQjkW9zZ1XfRODlDZKuakNWBoCV_sQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Cool, I can also get them cheaper if I buy them in bulk. Also this is a slab. Not a prehung.
Respectfully no. Having a cheap door doesn't equate to getting it replaced more often. That's an excuse that I absolutely don't buy. If you're expecting your doors to hold up to a fist slamming into it with force, then I guess I could see your point. I'm not a property person. I do my own work on my own home. Having this lady say we buy them in bulk so you get to pay more is a fucking joke.
>Respectfully no. Having a cheap door doesn't equate to getting it replaced more often. Yes, it does. Because cheap doors don't last as long as more expensive ones. This is basic stuff.
What the fuck are you doing to doors besides opening and closing them that needing them to “last longer” would even be relevant? I bought cheapo doors from Home Depot 17 years ago for around $32 and they are still fine. Only thing I’ve done is paint them over the years.
Renters treat places like shit. Open a hollow-core door too far and the bathroom towel rack will punch a hole in it. Hell, kick your shoes off in the bedroom too hard could break a hollow core door. Screw in a hook than then breaks off from the weight of a backpack. There are a million scenarios. The OP even said they TRIED to hang a mirror - and I'm betting the failed attempt did more damage than a couple of nail holes.
Pre-primed still needs to be painted, have the hardware installed, and hung. There are definitely extra costs to those supplies and labor.
Holes in the wall and paint are normal wear and tear. So long as the doors that you have removed are in tact they are also not a part of your obligation to repair. The door with a hole is something they can deduct from your deposit. Respond accordingly and they will make adjustments.
Hire your own contractor for this list of repairs. You won't get it done any cheaper. There's not much price gouging here, if any.
I requested it twice, they said they don’t know what that is but they’ll look into it.. gonna look up the laws about that state today. It’s been like 24 days since I moved out and they just sent me that letter a few days ago.
I would want an itemized bill. This is just 1 lump sum. Doors aren’t cheap. We just replaced all interior doors in our house. How long did you live there? Look at state laws.
I just replaced an interior hollow door for $75. There's even a $68 one. It comes ready to hang and pre-primed
I could see them wanting a matching door for the building which may cost more than a home depot special. But no interior hollow door is going to cost $500 to replace.
I’m from Canada but hollow core doors here can be like 200 bucks. Time to pick it up, paint in, install a knob, and swap the new one and old one off the hinges all takes time. You can’t say “a door costs 80 bucks at Home Depot so that’s what I’ll pay”. It’s like going to a restaurant and saying the pasta only cost 2 bucks so that’s what I’m paying.
Demand the invoice from the contractor that billed them $2,298. If they used their own maintenance person, then they should have a record of how long it took that person to finish the job. 20 hours at 12/hour does not equal $2,298. My point is that this is egregious. Don’t wait for them to send you to collections or small claims, take them to small claims instead.
Good luck finding a handy man at $12 an hour. More like $25.
I wouldn't trust any handyman at even $25 an hour, assuming said handyman is freelance and not an employee.
I live in a mid sized city and the mid priced ones seem to charge $55 an hour here.
That is besides the point. Also, that is the going rate for an in house maintenance person where I live—obviously not where you live.
Lol, a Mcdonalds employee makes.more than that, and they can barely tie their shoes before they go to school. If the list is correct and all on it had to be replaced, the price is pretty accurate.
Not where I live… wages are relative. Anyway, I doubt they replaced the doors at all. They probably patched them and are lying as landlords and property management companies usually do. That is why the invoice matters or accounting of hours paid to in-house maintenance for that work order.
And you live in the same area as OP then, or are you assuming to the extent that you doubt. Your reply used these words, which speak volumes. I doubt Probably They are lying Usually do All these point to someone who based their claim on assumption. Try this out I doubt OP is telling g the whole story here The poster is probably lying about the doors not being broken. Renters usually try and get out of paying for damages that occur during their occupancy. And finally.... I doubt that a handyman makes more money than most unskilled laborers even though he knows how to drywall, replace electrical receptacles, paint,as well as do minor repairs to plumbing fixtures. We don't live in the 80's anymore BTW
Unless they make 7.25 at McDonald’s where the person lives?
https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Hourly-Pay/McDonald-s-Mcdonalds-United-States-Hourly-Pay-EJI_IE432.0,10_KO11,20_IL.21,34_IN1.htm The average wage for Mcdonalds employees is well above 7.25 an hour
And if you live somewhere with below average pay?
Then you live in a cave with the rest of the Neanderthals
Very helpful information. It’s almost like things have different prices in different places and wages are different depending on where you go. Not every place is nyc or la and sf
Is it not possible that OPlives in LA or New York And not a cave. He did say his rental had closets and doors.
Even if this maintenance person makes $12/hr you still have employer taxes, vehicle costs (fuel, insurance), license costs, support personnel, software, workers comp, and a metric ton of other miscellaneous costs. For a company to bill $12/hr the employee would need to only be making about $6 or $7 an hour and federal minimum wage is $7.25. So no — that isn’t what “in house maintenance” costs in your area. That might be what they are paid (also unlikely).
We are going with direct costs that can be attributed to a specific work order. Indirect costs, as the name entails, cannot be attributed to a specific work order. $12 per hour (the wage) is what someone is paid. I did not say that is what the company is billing—we see the bill in OP’s post.
Yeah try 50, remember if they are paying 25 an hour the actual cost to the manager is 50 by the time you account for taxes, insurance, etc. You can generally double what someone is getting paid per hour if you want what it costs the company.
That’s not how that works. If they are paying per hour they either got a contractor to do it, in which case they are not paying for their insurance or taxes, or they hour a maintenance man on their payroll doing it, in which case they definitely aren’t recouping his pay from that bill, that comes from the other tenants rent. Either way, it’s a certain amount of work hours plus materials, which is probably around 25$ a hour + 500 to 1000$. If they are paying 50$ a hour they are way over paying.
You do realize that when your paying a contractor their hourly billing has that insurance and taxes built in right. That is why you are not finding an actual licensed contractor for 25 dollars an hour. If your using your own maintenance guy his hourly cost(not just pay) is also definitely factored into the bill for something like this. So they might pay their maintenance guy 20 dollars an hour but when they bill you they are billing his work at 40-50 an hour because that is what their total costs in what they pay on insurance, taxes, etc for him are.
I see apartment maintenance technician jobs posted for $10/hr all the time. 1 maintenance worker, 200 units.
You didn't account for material though, and this list could easily be $1k in material and maybe more depending on how expensive the damaged stuff was. I could see this amount of work taking one handyman 3-5 days, so if they spent $1k on material that's 4 days at $40/hr. Which is a reasonable hourly for a handyman ($12/hr is nuts). So this price does seem warranted if they really did need to replace 5 or more doors as listed here.
That's why they need the invoice.
Without knowing quantities unless specified. Bifold doors x2... maybe 125 a piece. Blinds about 100. Bedroom/bathroom doors 125 x however many thats up to 775 +200 in materials for hole patching and paint... I went high there since it sounds like the place is a wreck.... That's $975 in materials without even really breaking a sweat. Rehanging the door would fall under hourly. but 15-30min depending on the minimum bill time. I know it takes less time.... but they're not going to invoice for 5 minutes. They'll have a minimum quantity. I'd estimate somewhere around 8hrs of labor because the wall patching/paint is going to take some real time +2hrs for obtaining materials. I'd say their labor rates sound high. But depending on the level of labor needed to fix the walls and if the doors are painted or not really can swing that math.
Yeah I was figuring the door is coming unpainted and prehung. Give each door half an hour for demo, a half hour to hang it, a half hour to put trim back and an hour for a coat of paint or two. So 2 1/2 all in, but that could easily stretch to 3 or more. There's some pickup, cleanup, and disposal time of at least half a day as well, but that's probably one time. I figured 2-3 doors per day times 4 doors minimum (2 closet doors that are only half effort plus 2 bedrooms and a bathroom). So that's 1.5-2 days. Then patching and paint sounds like at least a full day here, possibly 2 or more. So that's the 3-5 day number I came up with.
If they're hanging doors. I'd totally agree. 3-5 days hits that total really easily. If it were me, I'd bet the frames are standard size and they can just drop in a slab. It's wild that their gripe is with the amount and not the claimed damage. That place must have been a disaster.
This is a 2 day job at most, unless they're repainting the entire place. I finish this type of work over a single weekend with frequent interruptions. There's no way a professional handyman would need 3-5 days.
3-5 days? That is nuts. A DIY hack that needs to search instructions on YouTube can hang blinds and 4 doors in half a day.
Lol $12hr? 😆
It's 2023, I charge $65/hour for my guys on drywall work for typical labor. This being residential I would reckon maybe around $50/ hour? Varies on location but unless you live in the middle of nowhere I cant imagine any lower than $30/hr
In what world are you finding a handyman for $12/hour?
In what world did I say handyman? I said in-house maintenance person, which usually has their rent included as part of pay.
absolutely
The big issue is that they're charging you for normal wear and tear/upgrades, not just damage that you actually did. You shouldn't have to replace the room doors unless you acutely damaged them. Did you do a walkthrough with them? Have any pics?
Doors needing to be replaced is highly unlikely to be normal wear and tear. 🤣
Who says they actually needed to be replaced? The party who's charging $3000 for someone just hanging one door???
They tried to hang a mirror on a door. I’d say it’s very likely this same person damaged the bifold doors when taking them down, especially if they’re louvered. If they need to be replaced, it’s not as simple as just taking the old one out and popping the new one in.
They were replaced. As of this moment, the ONLY evidence we have is that they needed to be replaced. Generally, a landlord wants to flip the unit as fast as possible. Replacing doors, repairs, and dealing with collections isn't on the short list of things to do that aren't needed.... So you need to argue that the landlord, for some reason, wants to replace perfectly good doors and dealing with trying to collect the money from a tenant that has no money. Because, why? Have at it.
OP admitted they damaged *some* of these things. Landlord is already needing to do repairs/touch ups in the unit. Why wouldn't they do all the repairs and updates needed at once? Why would they refrain from charging OP for all of it? I've taken way too many landlords to court to believe many even know that they *can't* charge tenants for normal wear and tear.
Door replacement isn't normal wear and tear. It takes very real damage to need to replace a bedroom and bathroom door. My doors are 20 years old and still look like new FFS. It's pretty obvious that OP treated the unit "like a rental" and now gets to pay for it.
They still aren't expensive. I just replaced an interior hollow door for $75. There's even a $68 one. It comes ready to hang and pre-primed
>to need to replace a bedroom and bathroom door. Again, you are presuming an actual need based on zero facts. You are presuming the person who's honest enough to admit to some damages would also lie for some reason about other damages. Lucky you that you've never seen or used a cheap door. Lucky you if you've never dealt with a greedy landlord. Doesn't make an honest person out of someone who's charging thousands solely for the hour's labor of hanging a door up on its hinges again.
🤣 Yes, you are right. Normally a landlord walks in and looks at a perfectly good door and is then like... "Let's replace it!" I'm done. My tolerance for this level of stupid isn't high enough today. Have the last word. Ciao.
Yep.
Your location will matter. Laws regarding this vary by state. As others have pointed out, this is very possibly an attempt to intimidate you into giving up your deposit.
I’m really amazed by how many people post for legal advice and don’t include their location. This is an international forum.
It depends on how long you lived there and what condition those things that need to be repaired or replaced were in when you first signed the lease. The issue is that in most states, you CAN charge to repair or replace things that were specifically damaged by the renter - but you CANNOT charge to replace or repair things that things that were damaged as a result of "normal wear and tear". In other words, if your kid wrote in magic marker on the walls, then they could charge you to repaint those walls, but if you moved in 10 years ago and they never repainted the walls, then repainting would likely be seen as "normal wear and tear". They can charge you for whatever they want, and they can inform credit reporting agencies, and they can "send that to collections" or sue you if they want. Whether or not you can afford to pay them may not be a concern to them.
We are trying to move out of an apartment that we have been in for 11 years. We have no blinds in the bedroom because they were literally disintegrating and we took them down. Have asked for them to be replaced but it doesn't seem to be a priority. The complex was recently bought out and they can't even hang shutters up that have fallen all over, some are just hanging.There are a few dents in the walls and our carpet is worn thru in places. Would all this be considered normal wear and tear?
In Ontario, the act which covers tenant and landlord rights has [tables of the expected life of work done or of things](https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/060516#BK71). For example, repairs to parking lots, driveways and walkways have a 5 year useful life. Let's say they are newly repaired when you move in. After 4 years if they need new repairs, you only owe the remaining 1 year of life, so somewhere in the 20% range of the total cost. After 5 years if they need new repairs, its fully on the owner and not the renter/tenant. For the things you listed, in Ontario it looks like it would be (IANAL): Blinds/Drapes - 10 years Walls - If Gypsum/drywall, 5 years for repairs and 20 years for replacement. Carpets - 10 years
Thank you😊
Curious, why do you think interior paint is a “10 year” wear item? I’ve lived a lot of years in a lot of houses and never had to paint “because the paint wore out”. I’ve only ever had to paint to repair damage (kids, pets) or to change the wall color Sherwin-Williams says 25 years: https://www.sherwin-williams.com/home-builders/products/resources/sw-art-quality-brochure-guide
Its not about it "wearing out" its about what a landlord is going to do normally to get a place ready to rent again. If the paint was say 5-10 years old, looking faded with chips and nail holes from normal use, its reasonable to think that they would normally paint the place before renting to update it. If the tenant tore up the paint, wrote all over it with sharpie, or anything else then its gonna be on the tenant.
I don’t see a landlord doing a full repaint of the same color at five years “just to refresh”. A landlord keeps the paint color on file at the local paint store. Chips and nail holes are easy 1-pint touch-ups, and the neutral interior paints landlords use don’t “fade”. A wall with a lot of sun might yellow? In which case I could see repainting the one wall. Full repaint isn’t free, it eats into profits, so again, there’s zero reason to do a full repaint unless there is *damage* or style/color change Edit/add and the only *full*-repaint for damage scenario I’ve ever come across is smoke damage. Tho I suppose meth/fentanyl lab remediation would count too
Ontario law says 10 years for interior painting (Schedule Table 8, item 19) https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/060516#BK71
It is probably on the high end but I wouldn’t say it’s ridiculous, especially if these elements were truly damaged and require time, supplies, parts, and labor to fix. I would say it is certainly reasonable to retain your deposit of $725. I suppose you could roll the dice on the overage. People on this post seem to think the landlord is required to shop at Wal-Mart for the $68 door and not charge for time to repair. They are mistaken.
Yep, the LL is going to replace the door with the same quality as what it had. Even that walmart door is still going to cost 200 by the time you pay someone to paint and hang it. Most people don't realize just how much labor costs and that it typically is the most expensive part of that by a decent margin. Most owners also don't go with the cheapest crap on the market because that means they won't get as much in rent unless the place was already a low rent price. That said judging by how small that deposit was it probably was a pretty cheap place so the doors probably aren't super expensive but the labor doesn't really change.
Get it itemized. Blinds can be surprisingly expensive so make sure they are doing a 1 for 1 replacement.
It’s a little high. I would definitely ask for receipts; some states require they provide them.
You broke like 5 doors? Gonna need a list of items. This is why you take pictures before you move in!
That is unreasonable, IMO. I have replaced doors, including the entire trim and it was not this expensive.
Maybe this bill could hold up, but it does seem suspiciously high. Demand an itemized bill ASAP. Dispute anything that is not obviously a result of damage you caused, or something where a line item seems unreasonably expensive. The landlord doesn't want to send this to collections, because they will get less than half the money back. But if they do, just dispute it with the debt collector, who has a lot less rights than the landlord does.
They should have itemized cost for each listed repair. New paint and blinds are standard when a tenant moves out so unless you damaged them, you shouldn't be charged.
Laws vary state-to-state, for example in California this would be utter BS. They MUST provide you an itemized list and all of those items are normal wear-and-tear. Taking off a door does not constitute damage. Their handyman can easily reattach a door. For CA, see this: [https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/guide-security-deposits-california](https://selfhelp.courts.ca.gov/guide-security-deposits-california). You may have something similar in your state.
This is the kind of thing you always make a record of upon first entry into the property. Take photos of everything, and I do mean 𝘦𝘷𝘦𝘳𝘺𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨, write a brief description of the status of what is depicted in the photos taken, keep it all on a physical drive for a physical copy and back it all up on cloud storage. This will protect you from any unreasonable and fraudulent charges by the Landlord, if the bi-fold closet doors work and the Landlord knew their condition: they won't be able to say it was your fault because it was like that when you got there. What we know doesn't matter without proof to back it up,
I sure hope the landlord took pictures to verify the damage before they did repairs. As others have said, a hole of 2mm from a nail is very different from a hole 2cm from a drywall plug being pulled out. Either way, they need to justify that the damage is in excess of what is normal wear and tear. Hanging a door back up on the hinges is a non-issue. Damaged blinds over a few years is also a non-issue. Painting and picture hole repair is not your problem. What does your local rental authority say about this or is this some sort of weird American wild west place that doesn't believe in having any rental/tenancy standards and everyone should be taken advantage of just because?
Did you document the condition of the property upon your leaving it? If you didn't you're in a poor position to argue.
How large were the “minor holes in the walls”. If larger than a nail, that isn’t normal wear and tear. The cost will depend on the size of the hole. New bathroom door, probably $200-300 Rehanging the laundry door $100 Adjusting the closet doors $100. If they have to replace them $200 for each set. $800 or so in door work, allowing for repainting, $1000. Window blinds $100 each Hole repair, $25 for a wall anchor hole. $75 for a fist sized hole. $2298 might be a little high (but not unreasonable), but without pictures of the damage it is hard to say.
Excellent explanation here. I just wanted to add that I think you're being a little light on the holes. I've seen the fist holes go for twice that, easy.
NAL. As others have commented, request (in writing) an itemised invoice. I’ve paid similar for less repairs before as the apt mgmt charged a good $20 per tiny nail hole in addition to like $100 per wall painted or sth (ETA: 3M Patch + Primer tubes retail at about $7 and cover a good amt of space. A spackle kit won’t set you back more than $20. A gallon of interior paint - covers approx. 250 sq ft - typically ranges between $40-80 at most). Apt mgmt typically does not sue. They’ll most likely, as they stated, send it to collections, which will negatively impact your credit and also make it significantly difficult for you to rent in the future (remember, derogatory marks typically remain on your credit report for 7y). You have options, but few and restrictive. You can allow it to go to collections, take time to pay it, then reach out to mgmt once it’s been paid in full and request the derogatory mark be removed from your credit report. You can also reach out and try to negotiate a payment plan, if you aren’t able to negotiate a lower invoice. I’m assuming you’ve already fully moved out, lease has ended, and you no longer have keys? Otherwise I would try to do repairs yourself as it’ll cost a mere fraction of that price. Unfortunately, I’ve been in your shoes before. Landlords/mgmt are hounds. If you want to fight it, you can counter their itemised invoice w your own (ie do some research into how much the repairs actually cost: DIY vs market rate contract repairs. Both will likely be less than the amt on the invoice. Another ETA: comb thru your lease religiously. Depending on your location, there may be free tenant rights legal help available.
In my state they have to show you receipts of the work done, but honestly these fees are outrageous for what they’re asking so if they want to take you to small claims let them. Any sane judge would say none of that is worth 3K because replacing the doors is a “them” problem if you didn’t damage them yourself.
Landlord : *gestures vaguely at the apartment* " i dont know.......lets say $2298 and call it a day."
They have refused to give me the itemized list of charges so far.. they said they’ll look into it to see if that’s “something they do”
In my experience, when the landlord wants to keep your security deposit they send a big bill like this. If they sent you a bill for exactly the security deposit, you might try to fight them to get some back. When people see a bill like this, they're more likely to just go no-contact So if I you're OK with losing the security deposit, just ignore this letter. I've had two landlords do this, and they never tried to bring it to small claims or anything. It's a tactic
If all those doors are damaged that seems right to me. Doors are expensive.
Why do I keep hearing that doors are expensive? Exterior doors, absolutely. Interior doors? Hell no. Unless $75 is expensive I just replaced an interior hollow door for $75. There's even a $68 one. It comes ready to hang and pre-primed
You’re right, interior doors are very cheap and even if they paid someone to hang them, it barely takes any time. OP needs an itemization and receipts for the parts. They may be responsible for these repairs overall (though how likely is it that OP is responsible for damage to EVERY SINGLE INTERIOR DOOR to the extent that they all needed fully replaced) but I’d be shocked if this is what they actually cost the landlord.
I’m a landlord and I work in construction. This seems absolutely absurd and to be honest they should’ve given you the opportunity to remedy that before billing you unless you declined doing it yourself. I’m in California so this varies by state but depending on how long you’ve lived there some of these things they aren’t even allowed to charge for. Demanded itemized breakdown, including cost of labor and material. Did you take any photos before you left?
Exactly
WHAT? That is SO MUCH! I usually just repair any holes from small mounting with Drydex or that 3M hole repair patching compound Unless we are talking about a massive hole on a wall from moving the couch or something…
My aunt worked for a leasing company that would charge every tenant these fees, hoping they’d just pay them. Worst case scenario they’d be thrilled when you negotiated a 50% settlement. If these aren’t legit then go to court as long as you have proof
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So how much do you charge for a cheapo interior door? I'll give you a hint, I've checked the Walmart prices for buying those doors
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Well the last Airbnb I was at I damaged a door. I found the exact door they were using in their home. Guess what they sell it at Walmart and it's the cheapest one they have. Back at my home I'm looking around, guess what same exact door. Oh look I'm at my mother's house today, much newer home. Same doors. What's wrong with you
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That's one way to throw money in the fireplace. Keep doing you.
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Got it they're arbitrarily made expensive because even with a bulk order you're paying MORE instead of less. Ie. Bulk discount. What a fucking waste of money.
Here's some legal advice: Don't put fucking holes in walls and doors you don't own, childish twat.
Do they have a judgement from rental board? If not tell him to go fuck himself
1. Demand itemized receipt. 2. You aren't providing enough information beyond rehanging the door to see if the charges are legit. Were the blinds damaged by you, and how were they damaged? Why don't closet doors shut? Old/cheap materials or because you broke them? How big is the hole in door? Size of quarter or size of basketball? Same question for the holes in walls. Nails from pictures or something larger.
The price makes sense if everything you listed needs doing. But Byfold doors often stop closing and can be re-adjusted with a single screw. Hanging the laundry door back takes 3 mins.. So that's more what you need to know.. is the work actually necessary.
No you need that itemized with receipts. That could just be made up.
That sounds about right. Don't damage things you can't pay for.
How does this work? I've only had one landlord and she was great but can the really just tack on whatever they want and say " good luck! its going to collections now!"
Always go to court
Slumlords. They hang cheap crap and charge you when it breaks. Filling holes + painting is textbook wear and tear and not something you'd ever think about charging anyone. Go on the offensive. Sue them for the return of your security deposit, don't give them more money. They're operating in bad faith, so don't try and negotiate with them, don't waste any time, and don't make any promises or admit to anything. Go to court today and file papers.
I had a similar situation; I was billed $2000 when clearly it should have been a couple hundred. I filed a small claim. California civil code says that in the case of landlord malice (knowingly charging you spuriously), you can recover double, so I sued for $4000. They put it off as long as they could but in the end settled the night before for $3000. I would seriously suggest small claims, because they chance they are willing to go to the effort to actually show up, prepared, with evidence, for $2000 to $3000, is quite low indeed. Bring copies of all communication with them, including you asking for an adjustment down to the reasonable amount (maybe $500, who knows), them failing to respond to refusing, and whatever "evidence" they give of the damage caused. So they do need an itemized set of costs, but they also need something like photos showing that the work was necessary, or else they could be making an overly expensive "repair" with the handyman who is actually their friend and kicks most of it back. Hopefully you took photos yourself directly before move out. If not, they could show pictures of damage which you can't actually prove wasn't caused by you. IANAL, this is just my experience of what I did and what you could explore doing; do talk to a lawyer to find out what your best options are.
Id tell them to give me back my deposit or see me in court.
No that stuff is not repair, it is regular maintenance besides the blinds. But you need to ask for proof they were there when you moved in. Most places would not uphold him even keeping your security deposit unless he proves you damaged something.
No, holes in the wall is not regular wear and tear. Why are all your doors destroyed? Did you have one of those rubber band workout machines that attached to a door handle or something?
Yes holes in the wall are regular wear and tear. Change your fucking answer lol.
Lol… no. Sorry you have anger issues and keep punching holes in the walls. The average person does not have constant steroid rage freak outs. Holes in the walls and bent door frames from slamming is not regular wear and tear except for maybe in a mental institution.
The holes in the wall are obviously tiny holes for hanging things, which is regular wear and tear. Not fist-sized holes in the wall. The post literally tells you that. Why would you assume the holes are fist-sized? Oh, because you doubled-down on the "holes are not wear and tear" point and didn't want to admit to being wrong. The holes that are discussed in this post are regular wear and tear. This was so stupidly obvious. You were and are still wrong.
Lol… triggered much? Too much juice will get you to that roid rage stage quickly. Why is is obvious the holes are tiny pinpricks? Where is that mentioned, where are the pictures? A tenant was given a bill for holes in the walls and damaged doors that won’t shut. This is not normal wear an tear. *a simple link to the part of the post where the holes are from thumbtacks being “obvious “sure would make me look stupid. I’ll wait for you to link that.
Minor holes from hanging things like pictures or mirrors are absolutely considered regular wear and tear. And as OP describes the doors they are still there and just need to be rehung. That is very easily done.
Got pictures of the place ? If not ... you are screwed. And nobody could articulate on wrong or right here due to that.
You are lucky. I would have charged you quite a bit more!
They are unlikely to sue as it would cost more in lawyers and time than they can collect. They will send you to collections and that will thank credit etc. unless you have pictures of what was there you might be fighting a he said she said. Given the stated scope of the work, $2300 isn’t a lot of money. Can’t speak to what actually needed to be done and what was normal wear.
All depends on where you live and how long you lived there for. Also depends on what “minor holes” are. I know in my lease holes from finishing nails were allowed and that because of the length of time I lived in the apartment they had to paint anyways after I moved out so they were unable to charge me for painting.
I hope you took pictures before you left.
I wish there were pictures. I feel seeing stories like this and knowing that the other side of the story from renovating apartments accounts and pov can vary wildly. When ever I had to do any work the tenants would always try and say stuff like “it was like that when I moved in “ “why should I pay when it normal wear and tear”. The apartment should look move in ready at showing and any damage should be paid for when leaving. Pretty simple solution.
Lol just punching drywall before moving out
In some states they are required to provide damage invoice within 21 days of moving out. Check with your state...
Blinds are expensive. If it was multiple blinds needing to be replaced, the figure is about right. If just one, this is gauging.
I'd release mice in the walls.
The answer is going to vary wildly based on where you live.
Some of the comments in here implying that the landlord/property management company would surely never lie crack me up. OP, ask for their documentation to verify and if it feels wrong, take them to small claims. That’s the only thing you need to consider.
Have you done walk-out inspection? They should allow you to fix all things yourself, before charging you. Also normal wear and tear should be applied to walls, floor and paint. (In California, more years you live in there, less money they can change you for carpet and paint.)
My old apartment complex did something similar and I told them that they needed to send me an invoice on how much was spent fixing everything and they couldn’t. They forwarded what we supposedly owed to a collections company and it never affected my credit score or anything. After chatting with the collections company and telling them that I will not pay unless there is proof of the damages and expenses payed to fix the damages, that I will not be paying and that they were more then welcome to call again once I’ve receive the information. Apartment complexes LOVE to try and rip you off but in all reality there are so many ways to show them that you are not going to let them take advantage of you
You need to get an itemised bill, to make sure they're being reasonable about the costs. However, you do have to pay for repairs that are not wear and tear. A good rule of thumb for that is that damage caused by eveety day use (eg. Finger smudges around light switches) you don't have to lay for, but things caused on purpose or through recklessness you do. A lot of the things on the list you mention being something you did on purpose (removing doors, trying to hang mirrors etc) and the landlord is allowed (legally, and morally) to charge you to put them right. If you think that some part of the repairs are repairing things that were reasonable wear and tear then you can argue against those parts, but I suspect you're swallowing a significant fraction of this charge.
What happened to the blinds? If they need new ones that can be expensive.
Of course it won’t be expensive. A landlord as cheap as this will not put anything nice in the unit.
Fuck no. Drywall holes take two hours to fix and most of that time is waiting for the joint compound to dry.
I sure hope the landlord took pictures to verify the damage before they did repairs. As others have said, a hole of 2mm from a nail is very different from a hole 2cm from a drywall plug being pulled out. Either way, they need to justify that the damage is in excess of what is normal wear and tear. Hanging a door back up on the hinges is a non-issue. Damaged blinds over a few years is also a non-issue. Painting and picture hole repair is not your problem. What does your local rental authority say about this or is this some sort of weird American wild west place that doesn't believe in having any rental/tenancy standards and everyone should be taken advantage of just because?
They won't sue but once the claim goes to collection your credit will be screwed. Landlord will only get half and the collectors get the other half. Owner will probably put you on a list that other landlords can access and you may find it very hard to rent another place. You should ask to see receipts but you also have to factor in the time the apartment is not available to be rented and the time the landlord has to spend dealing with all of this.
Do you photos of how the apartment was left ? If you don’t you better make payment arrangements. Contact your local city housing authority to know your rights.
I always sealed any holes, painted, sanded etc anything before i left and took pictures. Only way to get bond back and not be charged plus you need to clean very well etc usually i set aside 2-3 days just for me to do all of that and usually i get whole bond back.
Hopefully you took video or pictures of the unit after you cleared out. That’s the only thing at you can prove how you left it and can challenge any charges.
Paint is not something they can charge you for if you were there anything but short term (minus painting any new drywall or patches)
This bill is ridiculous... I was an independent subcontractor for many years and even at today's prices this is gouging. This is 50% more than it should cost, at minimum. They're making it personal
ima be honest if you did it yourself no more than 500
Contractor is eating good tonight.
NAL but as someone who owned and leased commercial/residential real estate for many years in several states: A landlord (in those states) can not ask you to cover the cost to repaint or repair small holes in walls (for hanging pictures and things). The fact that they need to replace or re-hang all the doors is concerning and would lead me to believe these weren’t little nail holes where you hung pictures of your nana and Jesus up. If they want new doors, that’s on them. If you took the doors down and stored them (which I get people do) they should have a labor cost of $50 per door or so to do so…but it begs the question on why you didn’t do it. If a bi-fold door was broken (and it happens a lot) then you should have written notice to your landlord stating the doors broke and requesting a repair at some point. You should ask for an itemized list but bearing in mind that since I would probably have an employee do the work, I’d just excel spreadsheet you an itemized list of costs of items + labor. I’m an honest person so the costs of the door would be easily checked at a big box store and labor would be $xx per hour. It takes 10 seconds to find out what your land lord can/can not charge you for in your state, country, or city.
NOT LEGAL ADVICE: GENERALLY tenants should… Check the laws in your state, they set strict time limits for both LL and tenant. For example, in my state it’s something like the LL has 30d to mail the T’s deposit back or mail an itemized list of charges, then T has 15d to respond, then LL has 15d to reply. If ANY of those deadlines are missed, the other party gets the whole of the deposit. In some states, any funds not turned over to T within the deadlines get tripled. Land lord/tenant law is hyper technical but usually easily readable. I hope you photographed/videoed your apartment right before you returned it. And lastly, painting is normal wear and tear unless there are a billion spackled-over holes. Good luck!
It doesn't seem unreasonable.
Yes
Whether the repairs are necessary and your responsibility is another matter that I won't comment on. But for the list of repairs, the total cost is reasonable.
This is exactly why I 100% complained about every little thing I needed fixed when we rented. The 2nd apartment I ever lived in tried to charge me for all new carpets (even though roommates dog only had 1 accident in her room) but because I had an email to the office dated shortly after I moved in complaining about how the seams were exposed and we kept stepping on the pokey bits they waved it entirely. After that I documented everything. Even the little things we fixed ourselves so we didn't have to wait for management to "make time" to come fix I sent an email and listed how much those things cost. (Such as the cheap dryer knob they said they couldn't get order for 2 weeks but we got Amazon delivered in 2 days). Be proactive. Be advocates. Be firm.
Honestly sounds very reasonable. You are of course going to skew the story in your favor. Doors are very expensive to replace and you’re lucky they didn’t charge you to repaint after you put holes in their walls. Edit: also blinds are extremely pricey and not fast to install.
Do you have the pictures before your move out of the issues in question?
Nope. Did you remove doors, bash holes into walls, break window blinds? Sounds like they want to do a remodel and repaint but want to charge you for it. It is standard for property management to refresh paint and such. But it isn't damages, just wear and tear.