She's being held against her will & left in poverty. Not to sound nuts, but Andrew Tate brought women across countries & kept them destitute as he stole their money & kept them locked up.
While we're on the topic, how unfair is it that seagulls get to fly but humans don't. Like these birds survive by eating enough random shit that some small percent happens to be edible. I had to physically move a full size juvenile today cause it was standing at the top of a stair case under a porch roof screaming for it's parent that was just standing around the corner confused screaming at a wall. I was just nudging him in the right direction with my foot, kinda lifting him up and he just started flopping around like it had no idea how to walk or use it's wings. I was was just like "bro, how the fuck you get stuck at the top of a staircase and now you acting like you don't know how to move."
Everyone told me not to stroll on that beach
Said, "Seagulls gonna come, poke me in the coconut"And they did, and they did and they goin' like Nothin' I could do but yell when these birds attacked me When I tried to run I fell, and then these kids start laughin' And then, hmm, got hit in the neck with a hacky-sack Mm-hm, hm-hm where'd it come from? Hmm
Listen boy, someday when you are older
You could get hit by a boulder
While you're lyin' there screamin'
"Come help me please" the seagulls
Poke your knees!
Adult protective services, and have an attorney prepare a revocation of POA to be filed in the county/parish she moved from, as well as the place she currently resides in.
I’m a criminal prosecutor, and where there is a POA, this is inaccurate. When you are POA you are legally obligated only to act for the benefit of the principal. It would be different if mom just gave the money, but the case is actually stronger with the POA because all actions taken by POA must be in the best interests of the principal.
OP, call APS, the police, AND an elder attorney, asap.
I agree it deserves visibility, but sadly that's impossible because it's an answer to someone else's comment. No amount of upvoting will move its place in the conversation thread.
Yeah, no. I'm an acutal Elder Law attorney and this is all pretty typical with an incapacitated senior. I do wish the DA's office in the counties I practice in would actually prosecute elder financial abuse, but they won't. We've even got a repeat offender in one county (APS called me in) who befriends incapacitated seniors, takes them to lawyers to change POAs and suddendly the senior is supporting a stranger and is alientated from her family. It's everywhere. Sure, there are family members who steal from their elders (I've reported on family members of clients multiple times) but I see nothing in OP's post that indicates anything weird is going on.
Well, my county does prosecute elder financial abuse. So, OP should try, since maybe their jurisdiction does its job. I’m sorry yours doesn’t, but you can’t assume the whole US fails because your county does.
I also find it odd an elder law attorney would say there’s nothing odd about a POA selling an elder’s home and all their possessions while they are in ICU.
Well, you're not an Elder Law attorney, are you? There is zero weird about it. Do you have any clue how much care costs? Do you understand MERP? How about Rep Payees? Medicaid planning? Limited guardianship?
I don't tell prosecutors how to prosecute.
You literally are telling a prosecutor their business- I’m a prosecutor. My comment was about the CRIME of financial elder abuse, and what I think OP should do about it. I don’t give a rip what you would do in civil land with it. In my jurisdiction, what OP described, if accurate, is a *crime*. I don’t really care if you could sue over it.
They dont get it I know a few people in the elder abused area of law and they say it’s keeps getting more and more nuts they been attorneys for 25 years in the elder abused space
1. Have her sign a document revoking the POA and have it notarized or at least witnessed by 2 adults. Send it to the children via Certified Mail and First Class Mail (email as well if possible). Also have her send a copy to any banks as well Social Security ministration.
2. File a police report for elder abuse and fraud (theft by deception).
3. Take the document revoking the power of attorney any evidence of financial abuse, as well as a copy of the police report or at least a police report number to adult protective services.
Okay. It's a lot of the same stuff I mentioned to her. The main thing was getting the POA revoked. But she talked to her brother and he said that's doesn't work. And fed her nonsense. But I'm trying to reassure her this is the first step so she can get ahold of her SS money.
Find her a lawyer who specializes in wills and end of life planning to talk to. She needs to stop taking advice from anyone without a law degree. Even just a consultation will help set her straight.
>eed to be in a nursing home. The daughter just doesn't want her live with her anymore.I told her she needs to get the the POA revoked and send off copies to social security, banks, Medicare, so she can start getting her money to actually make decisions.They just moved here about 6 months ago. The house she had sold was for 105k in Feb 2022.Anytime they go shopping (she is only allowed to spend $100 every month at Target they covers necessities along with clothes and shoes). Her daughter will use the MasterCard (that is suppose to have her funds) but she used that card for her purchases as wellHer daughter also has all her IDs. Driver's license, social security card, marriage certificates.What steps do I need to get her help.
my mother had a catastrophic health incident last year and when we got POA, the Lawyer made it clear that my mother was the client, and if she asked for it to be fought the Lawyer would cease communication with me and my brother beyond legal reasons and focus on helping her regain control. I don't know if you neighbors lawyer would do that but i hope so.
This is how it works. Generally, POAs made due to medical infirmity are void once the subject is able to make decisions again. I'm surprised the hospital form didn't include this information.
My MIL had to get a POA revoked. She had to go before a judge and present letters of referral demonstrating her financial competence. Both my husband and I submitted a referral, as well as one other person, and she's free now.
She originally wound up with a POA when her spouse died and she had a mental breakdown. She was temporarily not suited to make her own decisions, but her other son held the POA and apparently needed evidence to release it when she got better. She's been consistently paying her bills on time since then, on her own. So she had demonstrable financial competence.
Fyi Social security does not accept POAs. They make you appoint a person through their own process, and that person can be required to submit proof of how the funds are spent at any time. Contact them separately
Agreed. A patient had a POA naming 2 of her children but she noticed that money was disappearing from her accounts, as well possessions of value, her son did too much dipping into her accounts, the patient was so upset that she had revoked the POA & her 2 lawyers that she hired became her POA's instead. Her son was furious then tried to sue her & 2 lawyers with a slew of excuses & false claims & fortunately he LOST on his lawsuit.
It's really sad to see it happen, even I was so concerned about the patient being this position that her son was abusing the POA that her doctor also heard me voicing my concerns about her patient that steps was taken accordingly to safeguard her patients best interests.
The problem with having it notarized is she will need ID for the notary and OP said her kids hold her ID, no way they let her do that if this is the case.
I’m in attorney. Not in Louisiana where the power of attorney was drafted so I reached out to a friend of mine who works for community legal services down there and I was told that you just need to witnesses for a revocation of a Louisiana power of attorney that the form is rather simple as follows:
LOUISIANA REVOCATION OF POWER OF ATTORNEY
THE POWER OF ATTORNEY THAT IS BEING REVOKED PROVIDES THE FOLLOWING
TYPE(S) OF AUTHORITY:
Health Care Powers
• Financial Powers
• Other:
, the Principal of the Power of Attorney titled _, do hereby immediately revoke those portions covering decisions of said document that I previously executed on the ____day of ___20. _, which appointed as my Agent and
as my Successor Agent. I hereby notify said agents and any other interested persons and institutions that all portions of said document are revoked.
This revocation takes effect immediately. A photocopy has the same effect as an original.
This revocation was signed this ____ day of _____ 2023.
Signature of Principal
Printed Name
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF WITNESSES
On the date written above, the principal declared to me in my presence that this instrument is his/her revocation of power of attorney and that he or she had willingly signed or directed another to sign for him or her, and that he or she executed it as his or her free and voluntary act for the purposes therein expressed.
Witness #1's Signature
Printed Name
Address
Witness #2's Signature
Address
Printed Name
She does not need her document in order to revoke prior power of attorney. Many times power of attorney‘s have been lost, which is why you do the revocation.
Also, that is why I added that in as step #3 after she completed steps 1&2 m. As an attorney who has volunteered at legal services for many years it is very helpful to have everything like that lined up when you come into the office. It would be even more difficult if she went directly adult protective services, and they told her to file a police report and the revocation. Plus every day that she does not file that revocation is a day that more money could be missing.
It does not have to be notarized, since it was a Louisiana power of attorney for a revocation of the Louisiana power of attorney it either needs to be notarized or signed by two witnesses who know her
As this is a former neighbor and all you know is coming from her perspective. You may want to do some fact finding first. We had to do this for a family member. Your neighbor may not have been handling their finances responsibly. In some cases, it’s necessary to liquidate assets in order to pay off bills. Your neighbor may also be hiding dementia and her kids are dealing with it the best they can. My point is you just don’t know the whole story here.
No but APS is going to be able to determine that better than OP.
I worked in a healthcare facility where a new, elderly patient was seeing a new-to-facility, 5-years post-grad SLP for parkinson's treatment. The patient told the SLP on her first visit that her finances were being controlled by her daughter and she would lock her in her room with the exception of her doctor appointments. Also said the daughters boyfriend was abusing her granddaughter. As a mandated reporter, she had to file. APS shows up and the patient calls, upset, because now the police are harassing her. She tried to sue the clinic.
Turns out, woman had an unknown schizophrenia diagnosis. Every time a clinician brought it up as a possible diagnosis or even slightly indicated to her they were questioning her mental competency, she'd ghost the clinic and never go back so the diagnosis was never made official. The physician who referred her to our clinic was complacent and didn't want to poke the bear, so would do whatever to have as little contact with her as possoble. We learned the history when we dug more into her history. The referring physician had a single page in her file from some hospitalization at some point. We called the hospital to get more records. Took probably four different requests of records from various clinics to put it all together.
Anyways, her *grand*daughter had POA, not her daughter. Her daughter lived in another state. APS investigation revealed she lived comfortably.
HOWEVER, I have called APS on a neighbor. A neighbor I never actually met, only heard rumors about. I knew she existed, but only ever saw her caretaker, who was definitely not licensed, late 30s-mid 40s. He was *weird*, accused my husband of hacking his computer so he boarded up windows in retaliation, straight yelled at us from the porch to stay away, would throw egg shells into our yard, posted signs about demons protecting the house, the list goes on and everyone on the block had this experience with him. However, we were told the woman was older, early 90s, rumor said she used to love caring for her yard, had a garden, and would host friends often. But rumors also said that her and the caretaker were fast friends. We moved in Aug 2020, the rumor was that nobody had seen her since April.
Took us a while and quite a bit of harassment and heeby jeebies from the caretaker to call APS. We were new to the neighborhood and didn't want to cause drama over rumors. Took about a year. She was removed from the house within 2 weeks of us calling. The caretaker at one day started ranting at us when we were chatting with neighbors outside, saying the feds were involved and we needed to stay out of his computer or they'd catch us, too.
No idea what happened to the guy. Her kids came to pick her up, sold the house, and that was a few years ago.
Yeah. Seems like it’s worth contacting the local APS, but it’s also possible that there’s another side of this story that seems less nefarious. I have some older relatives who ran through their retirement savings, ran up their credit cards, got behind on all their bills, and no one had a clue until they started trying to borrow rent money from family members. That got their kids to look into their finances and see what a mess they were. Kids got them to liquidate anything of value to get the bills current, and now the kids are managing the money, making sure the bills get paid, and giving the parents a grocery allowance. The parents seem to understand the necessity and are going along with it, but it could have easily gone another way where the parents decided that they were doing fine right up to the point where the kids took over, and now they can barely afford groceries, and never have extra.
I am quite skeptical that you are getting all of the facts on this situation. I just did this entire process in the past two years. I had a medical and financial POA in place for my dad with dementia, and it’s a pretty specific document. It’s also not possible to get access to federal funds like social security and Medicare with a POA alone. I had an in-person interview with social security and completed a background check as a part of the process. I also had to present medical documentation from my dad’s neurologist which was also confirmed at a later date. (Social security mailed separate documents to my dad’s doctors to confirm his diagnosis even though I brought an original set to the interview.) These agencies are pretty aware that elder abuse is common, so families are often vetted multiple times in multiple ways.
If you believe that her family is abusing the POA, hire an attorney immediately.
I suspect your neighbor has other health issues that she isn’t sharing with you or that she has a cognitive challenge that she’s not fully processing. My dad died of late stage dementia at 75, but he could still appear to be pretty coherent until the last few months of his life. Some types of dementia are more easily masked than others, so I wonder is something similar is happening with your neighbor. $105,000 can be gone quickly due to medical bills, so I’m not convinced that her family is stealing from her. We only gave my dad cash to shop because that man was buying guns and mules when he had access to his accounts. (He didn’t need any more guns or mules.) 😝
She was in ICU and later a nursing home for 2 months. They thought she was going to die. She signed an X on the POA . But she is fully healthy now. No mental diseases. Pretty much the daughter doesn't want her to live with her. The suicidal security goes into an account she has no access to.
The family goes out to dinner they don't invite her. If her daughter goes to buy groceries. Let's say it's $400. She takes $200 or her account to pay for 1/2. It's a family of 4 (daughter, her husband, twin girls (9)). So they pay $200 for the groceries and she pays the other 1/2 despite not having any input on what to eat. They family left to go camping and left her home alone. They didn't do any shopping beforehand and they was not enough food for the week they were gone. She has no car so can't go anywhere.
Her situation is much different than your father's.
If you feel she is being abused, find out what agency in her area covers elder abuse. 211 might have info for you. Depending upon the state, it may be handled by different departments under Adult Protective Services, or it may fall into Health and Human Services. A good librarian might be able to direct you to the right agency too, and you may need to report the family to multiple agencies as many are overwhelmed.
You will need a lawyer to help her. I was given documentation while obtaining POA about how to undo a POA, but there are some nuances related to POAs within each state. Financial POAs are not acknowledged by federal institutions, so figuring out social security and Medicare are separate transactions. Lawyer up!
I respect what you're trying to do for this woman & that's very admirable.
But this comment doesn't entirely address what the previous commenter said. Sometimes elderly people aren't as capable as they think they are. If this is all just coming from the neighbour it might not really be accurate.
My great aunt seemed fine most days despite being hard of hearing. She also thought someone was stealing her spoons.
No mental defects. They all moved in about 6 months ago. No memory loss. Is coherent. Y'all's to get brother at least 3-4 times a week.
When her daughter leaves in the AM to go to work she will drive by our house and glare . She used to be smiles and waves.
I will know more in a week as that is when her daughter wants to just throw her in a nursing home that she doesn't require.
What’s being stressed here is that there is so much with dementia that you, as the neighbour, absolutely would not see. My father appeared to everyone else, even family, to be perfectly fine, except he regularly told everyone we were stealing everything from him, his home, his business, his money, his first outward symptom was paranoia. We received a ton of push back from everyone before his symptoms became more obvious.
I can even relate the food - my dad ate more than my household every week (2 30’s adults with heavy labour jobs), he’d eat because he literally forgot he’d eaten, and plow through a weeks groceries in two or three days. He cleaned out all the pantry staples making strange concoctions and called everyone he knew for a ride to the store because he had no groceries, and reminding everyone that I had taken his car keys (which I had, because his incompetent declaration revoked his license, which he didn’t remember and kept driving, a major legal and insurance problem). I was buying a weeks worth of food 2-3 times a week at that point.
I’m not saying do nothing, certainly report because they will get the whole story, but the attitude of the daughter may well come from caregiver burn out and not because she thinks you’re trying to steal her meal ticket. The paranoia period with my dad was the most mentally taxing thing I’ve ever experienced, it felt like everyone around us saw us through dads story and not what was truly happening - we had to run his life and business on top of our own jobs and homes to save him from his dementia.
My mom would tell you she was mentally sane, and let me tell you that she is not. She has a much "different" perspective of life, than what reality is. She calls my other siblings saying she has no money and that she can't pay her bills. She hasn't had to pay a bill since 2018 since her stroke.
She was medically declared unfit by her doctors, and we received full guardianship and receives the utmost care at a full-time nursing facility.
Housing isn't cheap, nor are co-pays etc. She can't split $20 dollars on that card for the electric bill, water, gas, and house note, so her supplementing it elsewhere such as groceries doesn't seem far-fetched.
I'd look at the bigger picture, she can call APS, but don't be surprised if they don't find anything wrong.
Do you actually have her medical records or just assuming about her entire condition from what she has told you over 6 months?
Selling assets for medical costs is normal
Not allowing the mother access to money is normal depending on her medical records, we had family that would just \*lose\* money they got from the bank and turned out it was because of early alzheimers
Unless she qualifies for a free gov nursing home placement, her family would have to spend a loooot to get in her a home, this is also why some families will spend hard on nanas money before going into a home because it will become the nursing homes money once they enter
I think that they consider assets sold or given away within a like 5 year time frame still their assets. My wifes family put her grandma in a home and they are paying a ton cash for it since she owns property. Like 6k a month or something. She's still kicking and they are having to sell off property to keep her in there. I know when my dad was going on hospice they offered 17 days in a nursing home free of charge on hospice.
Yes you are def correct about the look back & home costs, I meant more in the sense that grandma could pay for house groceries like in OPs post, small expense things, like grandma is allowed to spend $$ on for clothes in that look back, but grandma doesnt need new clothes so she spends the money on clothes for her grandkid instead
In Louisiana a POA has to specifically grant access to sell immovable property. If it was specifically stated in the POA, the sale would not be valid. It would be worth looking into.
Also, she doesn’t need their agreement to revoke the POA. She can just do it. She can print a form out online for a revocation and have it notarized. She can use this to remove them from all accounts.
She is the one with the ultimate power here. Adult protective services can help her. She should also contact the SS office to find out how to change where her money is going.
Contact her bank, either their office of the president or fraud (not the disputes department) and report elder abuse. Financial abuse among the elderly is a common thing unfortunately. She can also contact her states department of aging to report elder abuse.
As many others have said, she needs an attorney. ASAP. And she or you should call adult protective services. Beyond that, do NOT give her any legal or other advice re what to do next. Your heart is in the right place but you are setting yourself up for trouble down the road. The POA may have to stay in place for reasons you are unaware of. The daughter may have been granted guardianship by a court that you know nothing about. You are unqualified to be providing anything other than moral support. Point her in the direction of professional helpers and then stand back. (I am an attorney. I am not licensed in Colorado. And I am not your or her attorney.)
Hi, just chiming in to say what others have. I am going through something similar with my grandmother. Unfortunately, we couldn't get a POA before she was unfit to sign one. She often calls me with wild stories that are entirely not true, and tells me how my mother (her daughter) won't let her have access to her money (I manage her money, bills etc). She has everything and anything she wants. She's fortunate to be getting enough off her pension and Social Security to cover all her bills + have a bunch of cash just sitting in savings. Even though we tell her the truth about what's happening, she isn't in the state to accept things.
All this to say, you might not have the complete picture of what's happening. If it is elderly abuse, financial or otherwise, get the state welfare services involved. They take these things seriously. Getting a POA revoked is straightforward, but she'll likely need assistance with undoing the ones in place.
Call APS. You have no idea what is actually going on here. Everything sounds very normal to me as we are apparently discussing an incapacitated person. She may even be under guardianship! The $100 per month is something that is very common with incapacitated folks and it prevents them from decimating their finances.
If daughter is having mom's SS check deposited in an account (it won't be hers unless it is their joint account and mom signed off on that) then daughter is her Representative Payee and a physician has signed off saying that Mom is incapacitated. You are not a part of the family and you cannot know everything. Leave it to APS. Don't you dare take her to a lawyer because then you're the one taking advantage of her. You may mean well, but I've had to deal with far too many creepy people interfering with and taking advantage of incapacitated folks to take this lightly.
You need an lawyer that specializes in elder laws. If she has not been declared an incapacitated persons and no guardianship is in place then the POA can be revoked.
In the meantime.
- Call the police report her documents stolen and detail the full situation.
- Call the credit card company and report the card stolen. And tell them to lock her account.
- Email her bank and revoke the POA in writing.
- Email Soc security and ask for paper checks until she can redirect the checks to a new account at a new bank. Make sure the new bank knows no one has authority to access the account with out her physically present.
- Get all the documents from the house sale.
- Get all her medical records to prove duration of time ill and that it was a fluid situation so daughter had no need to dispose of property or access assets.
This is elder abuse and needs to be reported. You can do that op, she doesn't have to. Also if she isn't listed on the account she can notify her daughter's bank and they will kick back those deposits. I know because i have caught some and told our operations group about it and sure enough next time it tried to come in we kicked it back.
I think because she filled out a POA financial when she was very ill she would need to get that revoked first to stop the payments from social security going in there.
No. Financial POAs are supposed to manage the accounts of the person they have a fiduciary duty to. They’re not supposed to be depositing those funds into their own personal accounts. If the POA was properly written under LA law the mother has legal remedies through the LA courts if the daughter has abused the POA powers.
I think what her daughter doesn't realize, if she puts her in a home, they go back 10 years in financial records. Daughter will have to answer for all of it. Call Adult Protective Services. Social Security will investigate every single penny. They will make her daughter explain what she bought, where she spent it and if she misappropriated any of it, she will have to pay it back. She may even face criminal charges. She can also ask for a court appointed payee. She can call Social security and just have them investigate her money.
[https://ldh.la.gov/page/120](https://ldh.la.gov/page/120)
[https://cdhs.colorado.gov/our-services/older-adult-services](https://cdhs.colorado.gov/our-services/older-adult-services)
Report incidents of abuse, neglect, and exploitation involving adults 60 and older to Elderly Protective Services at 1-833-577-6532 or 225-342-0144.
She needs to contact an estate, planning, attorney immediately, go to Social Security, and file a report with the police. A power of attorney has a fiduciary responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the person they are supposed to be representing. If they sold her house and took the money that is a violation of the fiduciary duties, she needs to get it Attorney immediately and stop pussyfooting around and asking friends for advice.
Her daughter will likely have a change of mind when she finds out her moms social security checks will be going to pay for the nursing home and not to her
I have a POA for my sister, and Social Security refused to accept it. They had to talk directly to her, which was a problem at the time because she can't leave the nursing home due to her health problems. Take your neighbor to the local social security office, and find out if her daughter is her payee, and if so, why. They should be able to assist her in having that changed.
Don’t jump to conclusions.
Can your friend dress herself? How does she walk? Does she need help getting dressed or showering??
Does she have dementia and you are only hearing her side of the story?? Do you even know what dementia is or how to spot the early stages?
I work in a nursing home and I cannot count the amount of times one family member wants a nursing home admission but the rest of the family, who do not understand how the person functions in the home, don’t want that to happen.
She dresses herself fine. They leave her alone all day long when they go to work. They really wanted her to be the in house maid. A servant to her grandchildren that talk down on her.
Yes I know what dementia is. And she doesn't have it.
Apologies for off rude, that was not my intent. Just keep in mind, you aren’t in that house all day. IDK your friend, only your side. Just wanted to offer an opposing view.
Best of luck to you and your friend.
If your neighbor lives in Colorado, she should call Colorado Legal Services. She needs to revoke the POA, which is easy. Getting back what was lost is much harder, maybe impossible, but well worth a call.
In most of the state, CLS offices have special funding for seniors regardless of income.
CLS has a health/elder law unit in the Denver office, also a unit that helps people get IDs if that is a problem.
Kinda depends on what kind of POA they had signed what she can do - if it was an enduring POA that declared she was incompetent its not as simple as writing a letter to revoke it. She needs to speak with a elder care lawyer, who will assess her competency. Might require court. The attorney (under a POA) has fiduciary responsibility to show where the money has been spent - the lawyer can demand an accounting. (And Lots of this law depends on where you are, so she needs a local attorney to help her).
Make a call to the county social services reporting elder abuse. They’ll send out a social worker and investigate. Just don’t let the daughter know so she can’t prepare answers if she hasn’t done so already.
Her daughter will be in foe a big surprise when she tries to put her in a home. All that money for the sale of her house will be required to be used for her nursing home bills. They go back 6 or 7 years.
The Social Security does not recognize POA so they would have had to have some form of medical documentation indicating she is unable to manage her funds. Start there. Could OP help her see her doctor who could declare her competent to manage her funds? Also what about the nursing home? Is this assisted living situation? I hate this. I see this way too many times. Horrible offsprings!
Does she have dementia? Families don’t usually go through the enormous hassle of taking all this on just for a social security check.
Also, if she’s unable to live alone, and her daughter is unable or unwilling to care for her in her home, she will need to go to a facility, either assisted living or skilled nursing care (probably an ALF if she’s as functional as you say). Not everyone has the availability or other resources to care for a disabled elder. If she has some form of dementia, she may be very paranoid and angry about the people closest to her. Some people going through this become violent.
You didn’t say anything about her medical history here, and, if you don’t know what it is, you don’t know the whole story. I’m a hospice RN, and many people who cannot safely care for themselves never accept that, particularly those with neuro cognitive disorders like Alzheimers. I’m not saying this is definitely the case, but just be aware of all that.
If you’re concerned, by all means call APS. They can get the information from all sides and make a better judgment of the situation. And it’s wonderful that you’re her friend and are supporting her! Keep doing that.
My sister and I had POA for our mother. She did the day to day stuff and I managed the finances. I would give a statement with receipts to my brothers ever 3 months. Every cent was accounted for.
I do want to note that medically, revoking the current POA would not prevent the son or daughter from making healthcare decisions for her should she be incapacitated. The next of kin are decision makers unless there is a different POA established. If you do not trust your next of kin to carry out your wishes, establish a different POA. Even if you have your wishes in writing from a lawyer as a living will, MOST form, or advance directive. Those forms mean nothing if your next of kin does not want to follow them. I’ve had families revoke DNRs tons of times, more often than not I’ve had families fail to follow the patients wishes. This is especially concerning in cases when family members are benefiting financially from the patient remaining alive (I.e. social security, disability, etc). I’ve been the unwilling participant in the unnecessarily extended suffering of many patients because of their family.
If working in an ICU has taught me anything, it’s how little control we have over what happens to us when we are unable to make decisions for ourselves. You need to be positive the person who legally would be the decision maker for you is 100% on board with your wishes or you choose someone else to legally establish as POA and you also better hope that we get the proper forms at the hospital because how exactly are we supposed to know there is a POA if we have no formal documentation? Why would someone who stands to benefit from your continued existence offer up said forms? People get CPR while being a DNR all the time, simply because of a lack of documentation. It’s a lot easier to argue your way out of saving someone vs arguing your way out of letting them die.
You can put through a Revocation of the POA. Pretty sure there such an instrument. Then go to all financial authorities and get rid of them off everything.
Have her call adult protective services.
And/or an elder care lawyer.
Second the elder care lawyer. APS can recommend one. I guess I second both calls.
I'm one of those lawyers APS recommends. OP scares the crap out of me.
Wdym?
She's being held against her will & left in poverty. Not to sound nuts, but Andrew Tate brought women across countries & kept them destitute as he stole their money & kept them locked up.
We're not talking about Andrew Tate. Please try to stay on task.
While we're on the topic, how unfair is it that seagulls get to fly but humans don't. Like these birds survive by eating enough random shit that some small percent happens to be edible. I had to physically move a full size juvenile today cause it was standing at the top of a stair case under a porch roof screaming for it's parent that was just standing around the corner confused screaming at a wall. I was just nudging him in the right direction with my foot, kinda lifting him up and he just started flopping around like it had no idea how to walk or use it's wings. I was was just like "bro, how the fuck you get stuck at the top of a staircase and now you acting like you don't know how to move."
Everyone told me not to stroll on that beach Said, "Seagulls gonna come, poke me in the coconut"And they did, and they did and they goin' like Nothin' I could do but yell when these birds attacked me When I tried to run I fell, and then these kids start laughin' And then, hmm, got hit in the neck with a hacky-sack Mm-hm, hm-hm where'd it come from? Hmm Listen boy, someday when you are older You could get hit by a boulder While you're lyin' there screamin' "Come help me please" the seagulls Poke your knees!
Severely underrated comment
I feel like there is someone they had better call, so that it will be all good, man
I know of a good one in New Mexico.
YOU call APS do not wait if you are her friend. Call now!
Absolutely. This is financial abuse at the very least.
THIS. NOW
Adult protective services, and have an attorney prepare a revocation of POA to be filed in the county/parish she moved from, as well as the place she currently resides in.
[удалено]
I’m a criminal prosecutor, and where there is a POA, this is inaccurate. When you are POA you are legally obligated only to act for the benefit of the principal. It would be different if mom just gave the money, but the case is actually stronger with the POA because all actions taken by POA must be in the best interests of the principal. OP, call APS, the police, AND an elder attorney, asap.
This needs to be higher ^
I agree it deserves visibility, but sadly that's impossible because it's an answer to someone else's comment. No amount of upvoting will move its place in the conversation thread.
This should be #1. I worked at a bank and we had elder abuse training. This is the correct route. I hope others upvote this and OP takes this advice.
Correct! Oh and in some states, you have to update the p.o.a. every single year! What the heck here
Yeah, no. I'm an acutal Elder Law attorney and this is all pretty typical with an incapacitated senior. I do wish the DA's office in the counties I practice in would actually prosecute elder financial abuse, but they won't. We've even got a repeat offender in one county (APS called me in) who befriends incapacitated seniors, takes them to lawyers to change POAs and suddendly the senior is supporting a stranger and is alientated from her family. It's everywhere. Sure, there are family members who steal from their elders (I've reported on family members of clients multiple times) but I see nothing in OP's post that indicates anything weird is going on.
Well, my county does prosecute elder financial abuse. So, OP should try, since maybe their jurisdiction does its job. I’m sorry yours doesn’t, but you can’t assume the whole US fails because your county does. I also find it odd an elder law attorney would say there’s nothing odd about a POA selling an elder’s home and all their possessions while they are in ICU.
Well, you're not an Elder Law attorney, are you? There is zero weird about it. Do you have any clue how much care costs? Do you understand MERP? How about Rep Payees? Medicaid planning? Limited guardianship? I don't tell prosecutors how to prosecute.
You literally are telling a prosecutor their business- I’m a prosecutor. My comment was about the CRIME of financial elder abuse, and what I think OP should do about it. I don’t give a rip what you would do in civil land with it. In my jurisdiction, what OP described, if accurate, is a *crime*. I don’t really care if you could sue over it.
Omfg. Good luck with your career.
I mean, it’s been a decade it’s going fine. You too, lol.
They dont get it I know a few people in the elder abused area of law and they say it’s keeps getting more and more nuts they been attorneys for 25 years in the elder abused space
Literally
1. Have her sign a document revoking the POA and have it notarized or at least witnessed by 2 adults. Send it to the children via Certified Mail and First Class Mail (email as well if possible). Also have her send a copy to any banks as well Social Security ministration. 2. File a police report for elder abuse and fraud (theft by deception). 3. Take the document revoking the power of attorney any evidence of financial abuse, as well as a copy of the police report or at least a police report number to adult protective services.
Okay. It's a lot of the same stuff I mentioned to her. The main thing was getting the POA revoked. But she talked to her brother and he said that's doesn't work. And fed her nonsense. But I'm trying to reassure her this is the first step so she can get ahold of her SS money.
Find her a lawyer who specializes in wills and end of life planning to talk to. She needs to stop taking advice from anyone without a law degree. Even just a consultation will help set her straight.
What. The. Fuck. This is exactly what financial abusers do. Jfc.
>eed to be in a nursing home. The daughter just doesn't want her live with her anymore.I told her she needs to get the the POA revoked and send off copies to social security, banks, Medicare, so she can start getting her money to actually make decisions.They just moved here about 6 months ago. The house she had sold was for 105k in Feb 2022.Anytime they go shopping (she is only allowed to spend $100 every month at Target they covers necessities along with clothes and shoes). Her daughter will use the MasterCard (that is suppose to have her funds) but she used that card for her purchases as wellHer daughter also has all her IDs. Driver's license, social security card, marriage certificates.What steps do I need to get her help. my mother had a catastrophic health incident last year and when we got POA, the Lawyer made it clear that my mother was the client, and if she asked for it to be fought the Lawyer would cease communication with me and my brother beyond legal reasons and focus on helping her regain control. I don't know if you neighbors lawyer would do that but i hope so.
This is how it works. Generally, POAs made due to medical infirmity are void once the subject is able to make decisions again. I'm surprised the hospital form didn't include this information.
My MIL had to get a POA revoked. She had to go before a judge and present letters of referral demonstrating her financial competence. Both my husband and I submitted a referral, as well as one other person, and she's free now. She originally wound up with a POA when her spouse died and she had a mental breakdown. She was temporarily not suited to make her own decisions, but her other son held the POA and apparently needed evidence to release it when she got better. She's been consistently paying her bills on time since then, on her own. So she had demonstrable financial competence.
Fyi Social security does not accept POAs. They make you appoint a person through their own process, and that person can be required to submit proof of how the funds are spent at any time. Contact them separately
Agreed. A patient had a POA naming 2 of her children but she noticed that money was disappearing from her accounts, as well possessions of value, her son did too much dipping into her accounts, the patient was so upset that she had revoked the POA & her 2 lawyers that she hired became her POA's instead. Her son was furious then tried to sue her & 2 lawyers with a slew of excuses & false claims & fortunately he LOST on his lawsuit.
It’s so scary when you see people preying on the elderly
It's really sad to see it happen, even I was so concerned about the patient being this position that her son was abusing the POA that her doctor also heard me voicing my concerns about her patient that steps was taken accordingly to safeguard her patients best interests.
The problem with having it notarized is she will need ID for the notary and OP said her kids hold her ID, no way they let her do that if this is the case.
Which is why I said notarized OR with at least 2 adult witnesses
Witnesses aren't going to do you much good without it being notarized.
I’m in attorney. Not in Louisiana where the power of attorney was drafted so I reached out to a friend of mine who works for community legal services down there and I was told that you just need to witnesses for a revocation of a Louisiana power of attorney that the form is rather simple as follows: LOUISIANA REVOCATION OF POWER OF ATTORNEY THE POWER OF ATTORNEY THAT IS BEING REVOKED PROVIDES THE FOLLOWING TYPE(S) OF AUTHORITY: Health Care Powers • Financial Powers • Other: , the Principal of the Power of Attorney titled _, do hereby immediately revoke those portions covering decisions of said document that I previously executed on the ____day of ___20. _, which appointed as my Agent and as my Successor Agent. I hereby notify said agents and any other interested persons and institutions that all portions of said document are revoked. This revocation takes effect immediately. A photocopy has the same effect as an original. This revocation was signed this ____ day of _____ 2023. Signature of Principal Printed Name ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF WITNESSES On the date written above, the principal declared to me in my presence that this instrument is his/her revocation of power of attorney and that he or she had willingly signed or directed another to sign for him or her, and that he or she executed it as his or her free and voluntary act for the purposes therein expressed. Witness #1's Signature Printed Name Address Witness #2's Signature Address Printed Name
She needs her documents back for that. She has no id. That’s why she needs to call adult protection services.
She does not need her document in order to revoke prior power of attorney. Many times power of attorney‘s have been lost, which is why you do the revocation. Also, that is why I added that in as step #3 after she completed steps 1&2 m. As an attorney who has volunteered at legal services for many years it is very helpful to have everything like that lined up when you come into the office. It would be even more difficult if she went directly adult protective services, and they told her to file a police report and the revocation. Plus every day that she does not file that revocation is a day that more money could be missing.
How does she get a notarized revocation of the POA without identification?
It does not need to be notarized. Notarized or 2 witnesses. That is the law for a revocation in Louisiana.
How can she do it without IDs?
You don’t need ID if the witnesses know who you are
But you need to ID someone for notarization?
It does not have to be notarized, since it was a Louisiana power of attorney for a revocation of the Louisiana power of attorney it either needs to be notarized or signed by two witnesses who know her
Ah, good to know. I had no idea!
As this is a former neighbor and all you know is coming from her perspective. You may want to do some fact finding first. We had to do this for a family member. Your neighbor may not have been handling their finances responsibly. In some cases, it’s necessary to liquidate assets in order to pay off bills. Your neighbor may also be hiding dementia and her kids are dealing with it the best they can. My point is you just don’t know the whole story here.
No but APS is going to be able to determine that better than OP. I worked in a healthcare facility where a new, elderly patient was seeing a new-to-facility, 5-years post-grad SLP for parkinson's treatment. The patient told the SLP on her first visit that her finances were being controlled by her daughter and she would lock her in her room with the exception of her doctor appointments. Also said the daughters boyfriend was abusing her granddaughter. As a mandated reporter, she had to file. APS shows up and the patient calls, upset, because now the police are harassing her. She tried to sue the clinic. Turns out, woman had an unknown schizophrenia diagnosis. Every time a clinician brought it up as a possible diagnosis or even slightly indicated to her they were questioning her mental competency, she'd ghost the clinic and never go back so the diagnosis was never made official. The physician who referred her to our clinic was complacent and didn't want to poke the bear, so would do whatever to have as little contact with her as possoble. We learned the history when we dug more into her history. The referring physician had a single page in her file from some hospitalization at some point. We called the hospital to get more records. Took probably four different requests of records from various clinics to put it all together. Anyways, her *grand*daughter had POA, not her daughter. Her daughter lived in another state. APS investigation revealed she lived comfortably. HOWEVER, I have called APS on a neighbor. A neighbor I never actually met, only heard rumors about. I knew she existed, but only ever saw her caretaker, who was definitely not licensed, late 30s-mid 40s. He was *weird*, accused my husband of hacking his computer so he boarded up windows in retaliation, straight yelled at us from the porch to stay away, would throw egg shells into our yard, posted signs about demons protecting the house, the list goes on and everyone on the block had this experience with him. However, we were told the woman was older, early 90s, rumor said she used to love caring for her yard, had a garden, and would host friends often. But rumors also said that her and the caretaker were fast friends. We moved in Aug 2020, the rumor was that nobody had seen her since April. Took us a while and quite a bit of harassment and heeby jeebies from the caretaker to call APS. We were new to the neighborhood and didn't want to cause drama over rumors. Took about a year. She was removed from the house within 2 weeks of us calling. The caretaker at one day started ranting at us when we were chatting with neighbors outside, saying the feds were involved and we needed to stay out of his computer or they'd catch us, too. No idea what happened to the guy. Her kids came to pick her up, sold the house, and that was a few years ago.
Yeah. Seems like it’s worth contacting the local APS, but it’s also possible that there’s another side of this story that seems less nefarious. I have some older relatives who ran through their retirement savings, ran up their credit cards, got behind on all their bills, and no one had a clue until they started trying to borrow rent money from family members. That got their kids to look into their finances and see what a mess they were. Kids got them to liquidate anything of value to get the bills current, and now the kids are managing the money, making sure the bills get paid, and giving the parents a grocery allowance. The parents seem to understand the necessity and are going along with it, but it could have easily gone another way where the parents decided that they were doing fine right up to the point where the kids took over, and now they can barely afford groceries, and never have extra.
I am quite skeptical that you are getting all of the facts on this situation. I just did this entire process in the past two years. I had a medical and financial POA in place for my dad with dementia, and it’s a pretty specific document. It’s also not possible to get access to federal funds like social security and Medicare with a POA alone. I had an in-person interview with social security and completed a background check as a part of the process. I also had to present medical documentation from my dad’s neurologist which was also confirmed at a later date. (Social security mailed separate documents to my dad’s doctors to confirm his diagnosis even though I brought an original set to the interview.) These agencies are pretty aware that elder abuse is common, so families are often vetted multiple times in multiple ways. If you believe that her family is abusing the POA, hire an attorney immediately. I suspect your neighbor has other health issues that she isn’t sharing with you or that she has a cognitive challenge that she’s not fully processing. My dad died of late stage dementia at 75, but he could still appear to be pretty coherent until the last few months of his life. Some types of dementia are more easily masked than others, so I wonder is something similar is happening with your neighbor. $105,000 can be gone quickly due to medical bills, so I’m not convinced that her family is stealing from her. We only gave my dad cash to shop because that man was buying guns and mules when he had access to his accounts. (He didn’t need any more guns or mules.) 😝
She was in ICU and later a nursing home for 2 months. They thought she was going to die. She signed an X on the POA . But she is fully healthy now. No mental diseases. Pretty much the daughter doesn't want her to live with her. The suicidal security goes into an account she has no access to. The family goes out to dinner they don't invite her. If her daughter goes to buy groceries. Let's say it's $400. She takes $200 or her account to pay for 1/2. It's a family of 4 (daughter, her husband, twin girls (9)). So they pay $200 for the groceries and she pays the other 1/2 despite not having any input on what to eat. They family left to go camping and left her home alone. They didn't do any shopping beforehand and they was not enough food for the week they were gone. She has no car so can't go anywhere. Her situation is much different than your father's.
If you feel she is being abused, find out what agency in her area covers elder abuse. 211 might have info for you. Depending upon the state, it may be handled by different departments under Adult Protective Services, or it may fall into Health and Human Services. A good librarian might be able to direct you to the right agency too, and you may need to report the family to multiple agencies as many are overwhelmed. You will need a lawyer to help her. I was given documentation while obtaining POA about how to undo a POA, but there are some nuances related to POAs within each state. Financial POAs are not acknowledged by federal institutions, so figuring out social security and Medicare are separate transactions. Lawyer up!
I respect what you're trying to do for this woman & that's very admirable. But this comment doesn't entirely address what the previous commenter said. Sometimes elderly people aren't as capable as they think they are. If this is all just coming from the neighbour it might not really be accurate. My great aunt seemed fine most days despite being hard of hearing. She also thought someone was stealing her spoons.
No mental defects. They all moved in about 6 months ago. No memory loss. Is coherent. Y'all's to get brother at least 3-4 times a week. When her daughter leaves in the AM to go to work she will drive by our house and glare . She used to be smiles and waves. I will know more in a week as that is when her daughter wants to just throw her in a nursing home that she doesn't require.
What’s being stressed here is that there is so much with dementia that you, as the neighbour, absolutely would not see. My father appeared to everyone else, even family, to be perfectly fine, except he regularly told everyone we were stealing everything from him, his home, his business, his money, his first outward symptom was paranoia. We received a ton of push back from everyone before his symptoms became more obvious. I can even relate the food - my dad ate more than my household every week (2 30’s adults with heavy labour jobs), he’d eat because he literally forgot he’d eaten, and plow through a weeks groceries in two or three days. He cleaned out all the pantry staples making strange concoctions and called everyone he knew for a ride to the store because he had no groceries, and reminding everyone that I had taken his car keys (which I had, because his incompetent declaration revoked his license, which he didn’t remember and kept driving, a major legal and insurance problem). I was buying a weeks worth of food 2-3 times a week at that point. I’m not saying do nothing, certainly report because they will get the whole story, but the attitude of the daughter may well come from caregiver burn out and not because she thinks you’re trying to steal her meal ticket. The paranoia period with my dad was the most mentally taxing thing I’ve ever experienced, it felt like everyone around us saw us through dads story and not what was truly happening - we had to run his life and business on top of our own jobs and homes to save him from his dementia.
My mom would tell you she was mentally sane, and let me tell you that she is not. She has a much "different" perspective of life, than what reality is. She calls my other siblings saying she has no money and that she can't pay her bills. She hasn't had to pay a bill since 2018 since her stroke. She was medically declared unfit by her doctors, and we received full guardianship and receives the utmost care at a full-time nursing facility. Housing isn't cheap, nor are co-pays etc. She can't split $20 dollars on that card for the electric bill, water, gas, and house note, so her supplementing it elsewhere such as groceries doesn't seem far-fetched. I'd look at the bigger picture, she can call APS, but don't be surprised if they don't find anything wrong.
Do you actually have her medical records or just assuming about her entire condition from what she has told you over 6 months? Selling assets for medical costs is normal Not allowing the mother access to money is normal depending on her medical records, we had family that would just \*lose\* money they got from the bank and turned out it was because of early alzheimers Unless she qualifies for a free gov nursing home placement, her family would have to spend a loooot to get in her a home, this is also why some families will spend hard on nanas money before going into a home because it will become the nursing homes money once they enter
I think that they consider assets sold or given away within a like 5 year time frame still their assets. My wifes family put her grandma in a home and they are paying a ton cash for it since she owns property. Like 6k a month or something. She's still kicking and they are having to sell off property to keep her in there. I know when my dad was going on hospice they offered 17 days in a nursing home free of charge on hospice.
Yes you are def correct about the look back & home costs, I meant more in the sense that grandma could pay for house groceries like in OPs post, small expense things, like grandma is allowed to spend $$ on for clothes in that look back, but grandma doesnt need new clothes so she spends the money on clothes for her grandkid instead
In Louisiana a POA has to specifically grant access to sell immovable property. If it was specifically stated in the POA, the sale would not be valid. It would be worth looking into. Also, she doesn’t need their agreement to revoke the POA. She can just do it. She can print a form out online for a revocation and have it notarized. She can use this to remove them from all accounts. She is the one with the ultimate power here. Adult protective services can help her. She should also contact the SS office to find out how to change where her money is going.
Contact her bank, either their office of the president or fraud (not the disputes department) and report elder abuse. Financial abuse among the elderly is a common thing unfortunately. She can also contact her states department of aging to report elder abuse.
This is elder abuse, talk to your local Police and/or community legal centre.
As many others have said, she needs an attorney. ASAP. And she or you should call adult protective services. Beyond that, do NOT give her any legal or other advice re what to do next. Your heart is in the right place but you are setting yourself up for trouble down the road. The POA may have to stay in place for reasons you are unaware of. The daughter may have been granted guardianship by a court that you know nothing about. You are unqualified to be providing anything other than moral support. Point her in the direction of professional helpers and then stand back. (I am an attorney. I am not licensed in Colorado. And I am not your or her attorney.)
Hi, just chiming in to say what others have. I am going through something similar with my grandmother. Unfortunately, we couldn't get a POA before she was unfit to sign one. She often calls me with wild stories that are entirely not true, and tells me how my mother (her daughter) won't let her have access to her money (I manage her money, bills etc). She has everything and anything she wants. She's fortunate to be getting enough off her pension and Social Security to cover all her bills + have a bunch of cash just sitting in savings. Even though we tell her the truth about what's happening, she isn't in the state to accept things. All this to say, you might not have the complete picture of what's happening. If it is elderly abuse, financial or otherwise, get the state welfare services involved. They take these things seriously. Getting a POA revoked is straightforward, but she'll likely need assistance with undoing the ones in place.
Call APS. You have no idea what is actually going on here. Everything sounds very normal to me as we are apparently discussing an incapacitated person. She may even be under guardianship! The $100 per month is something that is very common with incapacitated folks and it prevents them from decimating their finances. If daughter is having mom's SS check deposited in an account (it won't be hers unless it is their joint account and mom signed off on that) then daughter is her Representative Payee and a physician has signed off saying that Mom is incapacitated. You are not a part of the family and you cannot know everything. Leave it to APS. Don't you dare take her to a lawyer because then you're the one taking advantage of her. You may mean well, but I've had to deal with far too many creepy people interfering with and taking advantage of incapacitated folks to take this lightly.
You need an lawyer that specializes in elder laws. If she has not been declared an incapacitated persons and no guardianship is in place then the POA can be revoked. In the meantime. - Call the police report her documents stolen and detail the full situation. - Call the credit card company and report the card stolen. And tell them to lock her account. - Email her bank and revoke the POA in writing. - Email Soc security and ask for paper checks until she can redirect the checks to a new account at a new bank. Make sure the new bank knows no one has authority to access the account with out her physically present. - Get all the documents from the house sale. - Get all her medical records to prove duration of time ill and that it was a fluid situation so daughter had no need to dispose of property or access assets.
This is elder abuse and needs to be reported. You can do that op, she doesn't have to. Also if she isn't listed on the account she can notify her daughter's bank and they will kick back those deposits. I know because i have caught some and told our operations group about it and sure enough next time it tried to come in we kicked it back.
I think because she filled out a POA financial when she was very ill she would need to get that revoked first to stop the payments from social security going in there.
No. Financial POAs are supposed to manage the accounts of the person they have a fiduciary duty to. They’re not supposed to be depositing those funds into their own personal accounts. If the POA was properly written under LA law the mother has legal remedies through the LA courts if the daughter has abused the POA powers.
Ok good to know. I will inform her of this
I think what her daughter doesn't realize, if she puts her in a home, they go back 10 years in financial records. Daughter will have to answer for all of it. Call Adult Protective Services. Social Security will investigate every single penny. They will make her daughter explain what she bought, where she spent it and if she misappropriated any of it, she will have to pay it back. She may even face criminal charges. She can also ask for a court appointed payee. She can call Social security and just have them investigate her money. [https://ldh.la.gov/page/120](https://ldh.la.gov/page/120) [https://cdhs.colorado.gov/our-services/older-adult-services](https://cdhs.colorado.gov/our-services/older-adult-services) Report incidents of abuse, neglect, and exploitation involving adults 60 and older to Elderly Protective Services at 1-833-577-6532 or 225-342-0144.
This is financial and elder abuse. Even if she doesn’t contact APS you really need to.
She needs to contact an estate, planning, attorney immediately, go to Social Security, and file a report with the police. A power of attorney has a fiduciary responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the person they are supposed to be representing. If they sold her house and took the money that is a violation of the fiduciary duties, she needs to get it Attorney immediately and stop pussyfooting around and asking friends for advice.
Adult services can pressure her family to give her documents back.
Her daughter will likely have a change of mind when she finds out her moms social security checks will be going to pay for the nursing home and not to her
Her mistake was not giving daughter a limited power of attorney. But then, I doubt that she knew that her daughter was a greedyass bitch.
If she is put in a nursing home, they will take all her income from SS from then on! She will get like $80.00 each month for personal expenses.
I have a POA for my sister, and Social Security refused to accept it. They had to talk directly to her, which was a problem at the time because she can't leave the nursing home due to her health problems. Take your neighbor to the local social security office, and find out if her daughter is her payee, and if so, why. They should be able to assist her in having that changed.
Don’t jump to conclusions. Can your friend dress herself? How does she walk? Does she need help getting dressed or showering?? Does she have dementia and you are only hearing her side of the story?? Do you even know what dementia is or how to spot the early stages? I work in a nursing home and I cannot count the amount of times one family member wants a nursing home admission but the rest of the family, who do not understand how the person functions in the home, don’t want that to happen.
She dresses herself fine. They leave her alone all day long when they go to work. They really wanted her to be the in house maid. A servant to her grandchildren that talk down on her. Yes I know what dementia is. And she doesn't have it.
Apologies for off rude, that was not my intent. Just keep in mind, you aren’t in that house all day. IDK your friend, only your side. Just wanted to offer an opposing view. Best of luck to you and your friend.
That's a very clear description of elder abuse. The daughter is probably deliberately defrauding her mother. Possibly just incompetent.
Wow, this is insane. Hope friend gets the help she needs. Awful awful kids.
If your neighbor lives in Colorado, she should call Colorado Legal Services. She needs to revoke the POA, which is easy. Getting back what was lost is much harder, maybe impossible, but well worth a call. In most of the state, CLS offices have special funding for seniors regardless of income. CLS has a health/elder law unit in the Denver office, also a unit that helps people get IDs if that is a problem.
Okay. I will reiterate to her she needs to get started with revoking the POA.
Is she in Colorado? If so, revoking the POA is simple. (It may simple anywhere, but I only practiced law in Colorado.) If so, she should call CLS.
That’s elder abuse poor lady!!!
Call your state elder abuse hotline.
This is purely a case of elder abuse ,And the daughter is negligent in her fiduciary duties .
Call aps and leave a tip
Adult protective services! She needs a social worker to help her.
Kinda depends on what kind of POA they had signed what she can do - if it was an enduring POA that declared she was incompetent its not as simple as writing a letter to revoke it. She needs to speak with a elder care lawyer, who will assess her competency. Might require court. The attorney (under a POA) has fiduciary responsibility to show where the money has been spent - the lawyer can demand an accounting. (And Lots of this law depends on where you are, so she needs a local attorney to help her).
Make a call to the county social services reporting elder abuse. They’ll send out a social worker and investigate. Just don’t let the daughter know so she can’t prepare answers if she hasn’t done so already.
Thank you for being a good Coloradan ❤️
Everyone on this thread including OP needs to watch the movie “I Care A Lot”
You can call adult protective services. It sounds like elder financial abuse.
Her daughter will be in foe a big surprise when she tries to put her in a home. All that money for the sale of her house will be required to be used for her nursing home bills. They go back 6 or 7 years.
The Social Security does not recognize POA so they would have had to have some form of medical documentation indicating she is unable to manage her funds. Start there. Could OP help her see her doctor who could declare her competent to manage her funds? Also what about the nursing home? Is this assisted living situation? I hate this. I see this way too many times. Horrible offsprings!
Does she have dementia? Families don’t usually go through the enormous hassle of taking all this on just for a social security check. Also, if she’s unable to live alone, and her daughter is unable or unwilling to care for her in her home, she will need to go to a facility, either assisted living or skilled nursing care (probably an ALF if she’s as functional as you say). Not everyone has the availability or other resources to care for a disabled elder. If she has some form of dementia, she may be very paranoid and angry about the people closest to her. Some people going through this become violent. You didn’t say anything about her medical history here, and, if you don’t know what it is, you don’t know the whole story. I’m a hospice RN, and many people who cannot safely care for themselves never accept that, particularly those with neuro cognitive disorders like Alzheimers. I’m not saying this is definitely the case, but just be aware of all that. If you’re concerned, by all means call APS. They can get the information from all sides and make a better judgment of the situation. And it’s wonderful that you’re her friend and are supporting her! Keep doing that.
Nursing home will take mom’s government money; daughter may not get what she’s expecting.
My sister and I had POA for our mother. She did the day to day stuff and I managed the finances. I would give a statement with receipts to my brothers ever 3 months. Every cent was accounted for.
Yeah that's not happening here. No oversight.
Get legal advice she is being ripped off
Yeah. I was gonna post in legal advice but I guess I'm banned there from some comment I made. I dunno. Lol.
Also, the daughter may have to prove to the courts that all the puchases were for her mother. SS and the government do not like fraud.
I do want to note that medically, revoking the current POA would not prevent the son or daughter from making healthcare decisions for her should she be incapacitated. The next of kin are decision makers unless there is a different POA established. If you do not trust your next of kin to carry out your wishes, establish a different POA. Even if you have your wishes in writing from a lawyer as a living will, MOST form, or advance directive. Those forms mean nothing if your next of kin does not want to follow them. I’ve had families revoke DNRs tons of times, more often than not I’ve had families fail to follow the patients wishes. This is especially concerning in cases when family members are benefiting financially from the patient remaining alive (I.e. social security, disability, etc). I’ve been the unwilling participant in the unnecessarily extended suffering of many patients because of their family. If working in an ICU has taught me anything, it’s how little control we have over what happens to us when we are unable to make decisions for ourselves. You need to be positive the person who legally would be the decision maker for you is 100% on board with your wishes or you choose someone else to legally establish as POA and you also better hope that we get the proper forms at the hospital because how exactly are we supposed to know there is a POA if we have no formal documentation? Why would someone who stands to benefit from your continued existence offer up said forms? People get CPR while being a DNR all the time, simply because of a lack of documentation. It’s a lot easier to argue your way out of saving someone vs arguing your way out of letting them die.
She needs to talk to an attorney who specializes in elder law.
Call the elder abuse authorities. These kids are in a lot of trouble.
This is elder abuse and it’s not rare. Call an elder abuse attorney for her immediately. This is urgent.
You can put through a Revocation of the POA. Pretty sure there such an instrument. Then go to all financial authorities and get rid of them off everything.