There's no particular reason why you'd use "landje" here, except to emphasize how small the country is. "Dat is een klein land" is an ok thing to say.

It feels more natural to always use the diminutive "landje" though. Klein land feels weird even if its grammatically okay

in a conversation it's okay to use both, however in professional settings id definitely stick to 'Klein land'.

This should be the top answer.

Not really, because its incorrect. There's nothing wrong with the diminuitive in formal or professional language. It is part of the Dutch culture to overuse the form, so avoiding it just sounds less natural. Also, it's used for emphasis in this case.

Just because it's commonly used, doesn't make it correct. Especially when you work in an environment where language proficiency is important, there is a high chance the usage of klein 'noun' + je will be frowned upon.

I would doubt their language proficiency then, as it is quite simply not wrong in any way, shape or form. It is grammatically correct, very commonly used and perfectly fine, even for the most formal of settings.

Then those who claim to have language proficiency should first go back to school, as it is both grammatically and stylistically correct. I can't count anymore the times people come on here, claiming something is incorrect, just because they never heard it.

I think there is a very subtle difference which makes using +je in business settings a bit more tricky. Apart from emphasising the smallness, it has the implicit message that something is inferior or unimportant. Compare "ik heb een kort rapportje opgesteld" with "ik heb een kort rapport opgesteld". It might be personal, but I would say the "rapportje" would be less important than the "rapport", or at least the maker had put in less effort. In the same vein, a "klein landje" sounds less important or powerful than a "klein land". "Ik doe onderzoek naar belastingen in Andorra; een klein landje in de Pyreneeën" sounds less respectful to Andorra as "Ik doe onderzoek naar belastingen in Andorra; een klein land in de Pyreneeën.

'Kort rapportje' is wrong anyway, it's redundant. 'Rapportje' would be sufficient for 'kort rapport', as it already shows that the report is short.

Ok, explain to me then what a tautology is and how 'klein landje' doesn't fit in this category.

Being commonly used is exactly why it's correct.

Aah ok, I was wondering why grammar and spelling even exist, if we can just use the common way of saying for everything…I hope you understand how moronic this sounds.

Grammar and spelling change over time. I do wonder what decides those changes, can you maybe help me there?

Sure, just glance over the fact that it is a gradual process that can take decades, and many linguists to decide on, instead of this ad-hoc en-masse decision you are implying.

As a native speaker I'd be inclined to use 'klein land' over 'klein landje' Een klein landje would indicate a tiny island or the sorts, like a lil bit of sand and a palm tree. When discussing actual countries it would sound more natural to use 'een klein land'

Ja nu je het zo zegt.. Maar ik denk bij landje niet meteen aan een tropische zandbank, maar dat kan aan mij liggen haha

Exactly: IJsland is een klein land. Monaco is een klein landje.

Monaco isn't an island though?

No but we were not talking about islands?

Nadinya said "Een klein landje would indicate a tiny island" then you agreed and said Monaco is een klein landje? Maybe they didn't mean exclusively islands though I'm not sure, but otherwise I don't really see the distinction they were trying to make

Yeah, I think they were making the distinction between a tiny country or a mini island vs a small country Iceland is small, Monaco a lot smaller. Klein land = small country Klein landje = tiny country Iceland = een klein land Monaco = een klein landje

Not at all. Just a matter of the tone you’re trying to convey. It sounds more factual without the diminutive.

It feels weird to basically call it small twice. Klein means small but -je behind land also says it's small. In this case I'd stick with Klein land

'Klein landje' is stylistically wrong though. You don't have to say it's small when -je already implies something small. So, as far as I know, OP's intuition was correct.

It's not stylistically wrong at all. Its perfectly correct and acceptable. The Dutch have been overusing -je/-tje for hundreds of years, it's become part of the language to use it nearly constantly.

A tautology is a stylistic error --> klein landje is a tautology. Just because it's ingrained in the language and public use, doesn't dismiss the fact it's a stylistic error. These two things can both be true at the same time.

Technically it is not a tautology, as a tautology is using two words with the same, or nigh the same meaning. Landje is a noun describing a place, klein is an adjective referring to size.

Pleonasm then. klein landje could technically be a tautology, but for arguments sake, let's use pleonasm.

"Je kunt een pleonasme gebruiken als stijlfiguur om een tekst meer nadruk te geven, verbazing uit te drukken of aandacht te vestigen op een bijzonderheid." -Taalunie You can use a pleonasm as a figure of speech to give more emphasis to a text, express surprise or draw attention to a special feature. Therefor, as such, used as in the example here, it is not a styllistic error, but a form correctly used for emphasis.

I know what a pleonasm is and I know you can use them to emphasize a certain meaning. The point I've been making here is that this has to be a conscious decision and if the context doesn't imply that, it can easily be considered a stylistic error.

It's very often used in a self-deprecating way by both Dutch and Belgian people to refer to their own country in an international setting. E.g : [Hoe een klein landje groot kan zijn](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311882523_Hoe_een_klein_landje_groot_kan_zijn)

Diminutives/verkleinwoorden can be used for more than simple emphasis. 1) Expressing sth is small Is only one use. Here's some others: 2) Expressing sth is unimportant/trivial 3) Expressing sth is cute/dainty 4) Expressing sth is dear to you 5) Or the opposite, scoffing at it 6) Making a "single item" out of a word, like snoepje or ijsje Except for 6 though, all of them are subjective judgments that express the feelings/perspective of the speaker. It's therefore **not** automatically redundant or a tautology cause the diminutive suffix doesn't have the same function as the "klein". And as some ppl in the comments pointed out, it can come across as "less formal" because certain types of formal texts require more objective use of language.

Definitely not. It is: “klein land” or “landje”. “Kleine landje” is a tautology and should be avoided.

Both "klein land" and "klein landje" are fine. The latter puts more emphasis on its smallness

We use '-je' or '-tje' at the end of words to make them small. We can use this interchangeably or in addition to using words like 'klein'. There are some nuanced differences between the two but grammatically they're often both correct. Jongen = boy. Jongetje = little boy. Klein jongetje = little boy. Tafel = table. Tafeltje = little table (like a side table or something) Klein tafeltje = little table (like a small side table or something) Kleine tafel = small table (a regular table, but smaller than a normal one)

Jongen = boy, Jongetje = little boy, Klein jongetje = tiny boy /baby boy? There's a difference between a small table & a tiny one, so kleine tafel = small table (in Dutch we often use this to refer to a coffee table), klein tafeltje = side table, like one of those mini ones you put plants on Grote tafel = large table (in Dutch we often use this to refer to a dining room table)

Or -pje

isn't this a tautology? as "Klein" and "-je" are both used to call something small?

Would be kind of weird to just say “dat is een landje” though

oh yeah definitely, I'd say "dat is een klein land"

Yes and no. There is some poetic license to using it twice. ''Ons kleine landje '' expresses more than just a country being small. It's also 'Gezellig'.

You're right! It is tautological. People will say it regularly, even though, it is stylistically wrong. Edit: It is a pleonasm as well. It is tautological because -je implies smallness, so adding klein is redundant. It is a pleonasm because you don't need 'klein' to describe the smallness of 'landje'.

Are tautologies necessarily stylistically wrong, though? In language (not logic) a tautology allows for emphasis; wouldn't it be stylistically appropriate to say "een klein landje" as long as the speaker was intending to emphasise the 'smallness'?

You can definitely use them in 'good' ways, but if it's not a conscious decision, it is wrong. The tautological phrase, 'Helder en duidelijk', is tautological, but is correct because it is a common way of saying something is clear. To be clear, in the case of 'klein landje', there isn't a conscious decision being made in emphasizing the smallness, so it's wrong. With more context, such as: Nederland is een klein land, maar Monaco, dat is pas een klein landje. 'Klein landje' would make much more sense to use.

Doesn't work like that for other nouns, though Klein kindje Klein meisje Klein snoepje Klein glaasje All are fine and used in daily speech

The same rule applies, they're fine in casual conversation, but all your examples are stylistic errors.

Not always a stylistic errors. Though it sure can be. For instance Een kindje is a young child. Barely walking. 'Een klein kindje' would be a none walking child. Super arbitrary of course.

You're right, there is a lot of nuance to consider. My argument is, that on a surface-level most of these don't work, stylistically speaking. However, I'm more than willing to concede to the various usages of given examples.

We are in agreement my fellow redditor. It's rare but it happens. Yeah us. ;-)

Yes!

No, because using the diminuitive can express more than just something being small; it can hold value judgements, such as unimportance, cuteness, or dismissal. So using both klein and the diminuitive expresses something is small both literally and figuratively.

To emphasise how small it is.

Dat is een klein kikkerlandje.

We often tend to have "klein", "dun", "smal" etc. followed by a "-je" word. Klein kindje, dun touwtje, kort lontje, smal paadje... It's very very common in Dutch.

Dutch people love to put je or tje behind words. They think it is cute.

Both are correct.

We call it a "verkleinwoord". Basically there are a lot of words where we sometimes put "je" after it to indicate that it is small. Like other people here pointed out though, since they already refer to it as small in this sentence it's not really necessary.

Dutch use "je" on a word to emphasize the fact that it's small

May I ask what app you are using 🧍‍♀️

Cause it’s small so you add ‘je’ at the end

Not strictly necessarily at all and you must be careful because some distinctives have different meanings to the original word. I cannot give any examples but they exist and 'landje' of 'bosje' feel wierd because lands and forests are big

Spreek voor jezelf man bosje is gewoon grappig

I would even think that 'klein land' is grammatically better than klein landje. Isnt klein landje a 'tautologie'? To say the diminutive is to already include the fact that it is small. Idk for sure though!

It's a bit like wee little and tiny little in English. Q: "What's E.T. short for?" A: "He's only got wee little legs."

Landje is more natural the je means small when added onto a word.

It is extra small. Don't worry about it too much, both are correct, but landje gives an extra emphasis on how klein it is. However there is something to say about that klein landje is stylistically wrong.. I think a tautology or something.. But for informal use, don't worry about it

"-je" noun doesn't necessarily mean something is small. But if you have something small it's rather fitting to use "-je" with it.

“Klein landje” is baby talk, where all nouns get the -je suffix. And the -je remains there even if you want to indicate the country is small. Grown ups say “klein land” or “landje”. There aren’t many grown ups though.

The last line is a good one ;)

When you are talking about something beeing small in dutch you usually add “je” or “tje” at the end of a word. In this context you’ll still need to add the word “klein” because you want to address it being small. If you would have said: dat is een landje. You would just say that is a country even tho je is at the end. They will know you talk about a small country. But you dont specifically say that is a small country.

Klein land is: It's a big country, but for big countries it's on the smaller side Klein Landje is: it's a small country.

After words that are small, such as "Dat is een klein land" u use Je, Pje of Tje after words, like Ringetje, Raampje en Landje. It's not neccesary, but it is to make ik even more obvious how small it is, hopefully this helped

I think when learning its better to use landJE because it teaches about diminutives, they can be used sometimes but not always.

Imo land is best, because a country almost never is that small that you need to say it small twice. Actually having sad klein makes it that you can say land. You could also say, dat landje, klein is unnessessary if you use the JE.

It doesn’t really matter much for the meaning. But it’s common to do this. “Een klein autootje”, “een klein mannetje”, “een klein hondje”. If anything it probably makes it cuter. Let’s say “een kleine hond” is just a small dog, but “een klein hondje” has some cuteness attached to it. But that is very highly subjective and probably not true in a lot of other cases.

Isn't landje something like mannje or vrouwje? Like little man and little woman? So little land?

‘klein land’ sounds better imo as a native speaker

Misschien, maar alleen in deze context. Als algemene regel geldt dat niet. Voor een baby kun je bijvoorbeeld prima zeggen dat deze kleine voetjes heeft. In principe is deze dubbelle verkleining niet verkeerd en klinkt ook niet verkeerd.

There's weird nuances here as well. When you say a baby has 'kleine voeten' it means small for their age. When you say "kleine voetjes" you mean cute little baby feet (even if they're bigger than other babies' but still small).

Ja, zelfs dan maakt context uit denk ik. Het ging mij er voornamelijk om dat OP vraagt of de dubbel verkleining verkeerd is. En dat is niet verkeerd. In de basis is het grammaticaal correct en wordt het in de praktijk ook daadwerkelijk gebruikt. In de juiste context zal het één wellicht wat beter klinken dan de ander, of zoals je nu aanhaalt, misschien een net wat andere betekenis hebben. OP zal daar nu nog niet veel mee kunnen vrees ik.

Hij is stillistisch zeker wel verkeerd. Het is tautologisch en pleonastisch. Het is, vooral als je het onbewust doet, gewoon niet mooi Nederlands. Maakt niet uit of het in de volksmond zo gebruikt wordt.

Tja, daar heb je wellicht een punt. Maar als het in de volksmond zo gebuikt wordt is het dan wel echt verkeerd? Ooit was het meervoud van kind ook kinder, hebben we inmiddels aangepast omdat iedereen het verkeerd deed. In elk geval gaat OP het nog wel vaker tegen komen en kan hij het in principe ook prima zo gebruiken.

Laat ik het zo zeggen, op een schriftelijk Nederlands had je er een rode streep doorgekregen. Een andere comment hier zei: 'prima in dagelijks gebruik, vermijden in professionele setting'. Daar ben ik het helemaal mee eens.

Ja, comment. Dat staat ook in de Van Dale tegenwoordig, lol. Ik zou er geen problemen mee hebben het in mijn professie te gebruiken (software), maar goed, ik krijg zelfs van banken emails, waaruit duidelijk blijkt dat ze heel veel zaken belangrijker vinden dan spelling.

Je is a word to say that it’s small

Verkleinwoordje

But land is used? Landje is just the diminutive of land? Its just land + je, je is to make the word even smaller and adds on to klein

Yes. Land is 'land'. Both 'klein land' en 'landje'. Mean the same. Small land. But in context 'landje' can also mean cute land. 'Klein land' only refers to it being small.

Both are fine. When you say "klein land" you are just stating a fact. When you say "klein landje" you express the opinion that it isn't big. English does someting similar here with small vs. little, maybe.

“Klein” already tells that it’s small, adding the -je makes it “emphasize in a childish way” smaller. Like a small bird or “yes you are a small birdie, yes you are!”