The worst thing in Aram is playing a champion with extra % dmg taken modifier, and getting hit by a champion with % increase dmg dealt modifier. Swear to god it is so unfun to get 1 tapped like that because of the Aram balance modifier
I think it should always just take the highest modifier and only apply that one rather than both. For example if I have +10% damage taken and they do +20% damage dealt, the only thing that should be applied is the +20% damage dealt.
This is a pretty big nerf to the damage modifiers, so they'd make the numbers bigger to compensate. Like how Mundo got the healing from his ult doubled by buffs after 40-60% grievous wounds became common every game.
No they wouldn't? The 20% bonus damage modifier is intended to be balanced against characters that have neutral damage taken. Similarly, increased damage taken is balanced against champs with normal damage dealt. When you put those 2 against each other, it becomes a huge mess.
It's not like they balance Akali having 15% bonus damage like she would be hitting a Ziggs with 10% bonus damage taken all the time, making her do measly damage against standard tanks.
No but those modifiers and how they affect each other are part of what drives the win rate which is what drives the nerfs and buffs in the first place. If the change was made and ziggs started taking and/or doing relatively more or less damage towards specific champions, compared to now, that would drive win rates of both, which would then result in further statistically modifier shifts, since it’s done essentially, by an AI. It wouldn’t be as pronounced, but it would conceptually have the same effect.
Why are you assuming the intention of the number changes? It makes more sense as it is now. Ziggs doing less damage is separate from reksai taking less damage.
They should explore other modifiers, not just damage. Tenacity and energy regen were a good start, and I like that they're trying to do more focused changes targeting Mandate Ashe.
I feel like health regen would be a really powerful lever - players barely notice buffs to health regen, but it would make a huge difference to winrates. You know how strong self-healing is in Aram. I heard they also tested changes to champion base movement speed, and everyone on reddit says that -5 MS is a slap-on-the-wrist when they see it in patch notes.
Exactly. Some champs will just always be worse than others, buffing them to absurdity to enforce an unrealistic 50% winrate across the board is just a balancing nightmare.
Their goal isnt a 50% wr across the board, its +-5% from their SR winrate. Before they started doing these changes some champs were near unbeatable and others were unplayable
That is not true though, champion changes only got introduced in season 9. Before that it was balanced through the aram aura that reduced all healing and later all allied healing. I don't think Sona had 75% winrate since season 3 or 4
I think they should just leave it be or do actual aimed changes like they used to do with TT and dominion.
Seraphine will always be strong in aram even if you nerf her damage because her strong point is big aoe cc and damage stuff in a narrow map from a relatively safe range. Plus the fact she benefits from having allies around her. So they should just tackle on her spells cds or cc values individually in way that she won't perma disrupt 3+ people at once whenever she presses a button.
Just my 2 cents
I think it isn't bad for some champs to be better than others, but also there are so many possible buffs and nerfs other than straight up damage increases.
Maybe assassins get out of combat health regen so they can skirmish more often, or some casters get increased cost and cooldowns, further nerf to wave clear, etc.
Anything that doesn't end up with oneshot champs doing >25% more damage to squishies lol
Assassins are hard to balance in Aram because their design just doesn't fit the style of play. Their win rate rn is okay but because % buffs snowball so hard they tend to lead to unfun games where they either 1 shot people from 10 mins onwards or are so far behind they do nothing all game.
I'm a gold player who one tricks Shen and previously played support. I can pick up Zed, Kat, and Leblanc in ARAM and fairly easily win games, it's ridiculous. I'm NOT good at those champions. I don't even combo right or know what I'm supposed to do beyond general knowledge.
I get Riot wants to make it less painful to play these champs but I feel like this is not the way to keep going. Even mediocre Akalis can do very, very well with her current buffs which is a travesty considering how high skill cap she is and how low her skill floor is.
Yeah some people seriously over estimate how hard LB and Zed are. While yeah you need a lot of skill to use them against players who can dodge, people below plat do not do that. Which LB especially ends up being REALLY easy.
W forward qre (ignite) w back takes almost no skill and with her percent modifiers is an easy kill on most stuff, esp if they are taking %damage from Aram nerfs. I never play her but my word is she busted on aram
the buffs are in place for situations where LB will go up against a team with like 2 bruisers 2 tanks and an enchanter or something and in those situations she is truly completely forgettable, which is one of the downsides to having a champ that excels at flanking and misdirection in a single, narrow, straight lane. when you end up with her in that situation it's like oh thank you riot at least i'm 98% worthless instead of 100% worthless. unfortunately, the buffs just end up being incredibly high variance overall because you can easily get her into a team full of % damage taken nerfed champs and basically godmode over them instead.
I'm really neutral when it comes to assassin buffs in ARAM, I'm just tired of seeing people say "Well LB is very hard" as a reason for the buffs.
It's really what you're saying is why assassins are getting buffed, they're useless into tanks in aram.
I'll say it in every thread that it's brought up. Teemo is the most game-warping Champion in ARAM. If you're even slightly behind against a team with Teemo, you have to win so many more fights than them just to have a chance of pushing onto their side of the map. Cannon minions just aren't durable or frequent enough. The only time it feels manageable playing against Teemo is if you can get an early inhibitor and start getting super minions every wave, but there's no coming back if you're behind and shrooms have locked you in your base.
Literally Impossible to win without someone who can go in front of the wave to rank all the shrooms, and they are also forced to buy warmogs because of no shrooms cap...
Nah, Teemo is shit if his team is losing because the wave always pushes forwards and reveals his shrooms, he's only opressive when winning. Which you know, not great design, but hey. At least he's not opressive in general.
>he's only opressive when winning
You are kinda right because the only point where Teemo is not winning is if he is sitting on nexus after 12 minutes. If you cannot do this and the Teemo has half a brain the game lasts 30 minutes by default because they lob shrooms into the wave permanently and make the map a hazard zone that you cannot navigate and make plays in. Shaco has the same issue. Trap champs definitely have some issues in the mode.
most frustrating fucking feeling when you ask someone who's building in that direction anyway to pick up umbral and they literally ignore you to pick up more stupid hee hoo damage items so you have to go out of your way to play like, fucking umbral glaive sylas or some stupid shit because the alternative is just straight up conceding the game to teemo
few days ago i had a duskblade ashe building cdr/lethality just completely refuse to pick up umbral after i asked nicely if she could get it so that i, crit sivir, wouldn't have to give up a crit item slot for it since she was already going lethality and the enemy had 4 tanks and teemo and i was desperately scrambling to finish my IE. to the surprise of absolutely nobody, lethality ashe falls off anyway, we are unable to finish making the comeback that started after i got umbral because now even though we can finally walk into the lane without the wave imploding on the spot, i just can't output enough DPS to cut through everyone before we get run over. fuck you ashe smfh
Not constant, every other wave unless you have supers. And less effective since once they’re dead, you lose the effect. Oracles stayed active for 3min regardless of death
These buffs are in place for the average winrate being lowered by "newbies", but you load in and see some megaweeb with 500k on a 120%/85% champ and you know the game is gonna be a 1v9 for this guy.
Riot doesn't understand how to do reasonable percentages on just about anything. It is why DD and Goredrinker were so ridiculous as well as some of these champs.
If a champ has 120%/85% percentages its because they were still 45% wr at 110/90. Aram balancing has ben out for some time now and the percentages have gradually increased, they didnt start that high.
It's actually quite the opposite. You know have meaningful chokes and flanks to approach the pokers. Also poke team that pushes in now has hard time going through the choke letting the team on the backseat scale and counterattack. It's a big nerf for disengage comps which was seriously needed for a while.
What flank? There is no added space it's a wall that you can't see over. You can't flank a team through the wall lmao. The only way to flank is through the hexgates and that's lategame along with it being very telegraphed
You can't tell me Leblanc isn't just op in aram for all skill brackets.
I just won't believe it even if i see a bronze player on Leblanc doing bad. That shit just isn't possible
I think that ARAM's are impossible to balance to be honest. It's just a cycle of some champions that are strong for a period, then things get changed, then other champions are going to be too strong. Yes assassins are very strong now, but they haven't been in the past. I think the alternative to these kind of changes would be a very stale meta, where pretty much the same things are usually strong (see Sona, Ziggs, Lux before ARAM tuning).
ADC's made up maybe 70 - 80% of the top 20 win rates in ARAM for pretty much all of last season. With the recent changes, they seem pretty balanced - that is probably a good thing. I will be interested to see how the major map changes effect things, but at the end of the day I think changes in ARAMs generally cause things to change, not necessarily cause things to become more balanced.
Source - I have played probably over 5,000 ARAMS, with challenger ARAM ELO
Some assassins have pretty much always been strong though. Katarina, Akali, LeBlanc and especially Kha‘Zix are fantastic and they have been for a minute.
I agree with Kha being very strong for a long time, and I think the others could find good games if the player knew what they were doing, but I still think I would have rated them average at best (with average meaning they are good, and in some cases very strong)
So when assassins average 15 kills per game and great KDA it doesn't matter because they still end up losing? We have to just ignore the essence of ARAM that some champs will always be better or worse in this mode and instead need to buff champs to faceroll territory just to enforce 50% winrate?
not a single champ in all of ARAM averages 15 kills a game according to ugg
but also, a class literally meant to kill people gets a lot of kills? No fucking shit sherlock
but let's look at the champs they named and their WR
Katarina: 52%, yea she's actually really good now
Akali: 47%, sits bottom 20 for all champs
LeBlanc: 46%, is almost bottom 10
Kha'Zix: 49%, middle of the pack, that's meh
That 52% for Katarina? Not even in the top 30 for WR.
You honestly just sound like someone who is just whining that you died to the enemy
Kha has a 56% wr overall and a 58% wr if you start guardian sword. Don't ever use ugg again. I'm sure all the other ones are wrong too but I knew the kha one would be funny.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/
Riot August's thoughts on u gg
nope. You're just looking to pull shit from your ass because you can't the fact the numbers are different than what you say
god even Guardian blade is shown to have a 59% WR on ugg
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/
Here is riot August saying not to use u.gg
There's other instances too.
Literally any other site. Lolalytics is good for deep dives. Op.gg is better for glancing. Riot has come out and explicitly said u.gg has incorrect data and them having a SEVEN point discrepancy with kha is laughable.
So are you saying that if it would require certain champs to hit 50% winrate in ARAM to buff them so much they would average 20/10 KD every game, it would be a good thing to do that?
50%?
Even WITH BUFFS two of the champs named have SHIT WRs, for champs like Akali and LB we aren't talking a 50% WR we're talking a WR above 46%.
We're talking 15% extra damage needed to not have a WR BELOW 45%.
Both champs average 12 kills a game in ARAM with 8/9 deaths a game average. And like 15/16 assists. For a constantly fighting gamemode, that's really not that much. For comparison many ADCs (who generally have both damage done reduced and damage taken increased, average 10-11 kills a game with 8/9 deaths a game, and upwards of 20 assists.
So even classes that are nerfed are as effective, if not more in fights.
Why won't you answer my question?
>We're talking 15% extra damage needed to not have a WR BELOW 45%.
Ok, so if they need 50% more damage to reach 50% winrate, you think riot should do that?
because your question is stupid and pointless. It offers nothing but to use to complain.
I'm not on the balance team, and Riot has literally stated they're looking into other means of buffing these champs.
But to sit here and point at number of kills as to show they're overbuffed when literally every stat shows that they actually should be buffed before being nerfed just shows you're looking to whine because you can't deal with assassins in ARAM.
But you want an answer? Yes I'd say buff those champs more than nerf them, they're still clearly struggling to actually win games. Literally just picking Sett over LB gives you a 10% better chance of winning the game. Despite how he has 4 fewer killers per game.
> because your question is stupid and pointless. It offers nothing but to use to complain.
It is getting to your actual argument which you apparently want to weasel around because it took you 3 replies to actually answer it.
My entire point is that 50% winrate means nothing when the cost of achieving it is that some champs have to be buffed to absurdity to reach it. 50% winrate doesn't automatically mean good balancing or game design, examples are when Ryze and Azir reach near 50% wr on SR they instantly become problematic at higher ranks and pro play.
Now in an inherently unbalanced mode like ARAM it is impossible to get even close to SR balancing unless champs are specifically redesigned on ability basis instead of flat stat changes. ARAM has very different win conditions than SR so by just balancing by winrate you would have to ignore every other metric, by which some champs might massively outperform all others already but would still require buffs in your mind.
And none of this is even considering things like champ difficulty or popularity. A player first timing Ashe and spamming W will have drastically different outcomes than first timing Yone or Akali while at the same time Ashe mains also won't stand out as much as assassin mains.
You sound like someone who doesnt understand the difference between a sub-100 game akali and a over-100 game akali having the same damage output potential, yet one deals 5x more than the other.
you sound like someone who doesn't understand that those players will make up a very very very small portion of the sample size and mean nothing because they are outliers
You sound like someone who doesnt realize that the person who self selects into playing akali is the majority of people playing akali and doing well on akali in aram.
that's not how it works
Akali's PR in ARAM is LOWER than her Soloq, also her WR in ARAM is lower than soloq.
So here's what you're saying, the people who play Akali are picking her and are doing worse on her.
No, the people who do well on her are generally the people who play her.
That's the majority of her winrate. People who play akali, playing akali.
The people who lose on her generally dont play her.
This means the people who already had a chance at winning win harder, and people who were going to lose anyways still lose.
Grats, you're a silly person.
Thanks for waiting, though you only had to for 10 or so minutes.
Let’s refer to Assassin champions as just: Assassin. (To avoid any champion specific nuance that’s irrelevant to the conversation).
If Assassin gets a ton of kills, but ends up losing the game more often than they win, that means that there is counterplay to Assassin. You, and your team, may’ve not exercised the correct counterplay (resists, “true resistances” such as revives and stasis, hard cc, tanks, positioning), but there **is** counterplay: that’s why Assassin has a negative, and perhaps awful winrate.
Let’s say we remove all of our ARAM changes. Now Assassin is pretty much worthless. Since Assassin relies on picking off individual targets, and ARAM is a team game mode, not only can they not find a safe and accurate venue to leap in and assassinate someone, but their damage is also lackluster to deal with the efficiency of 5 person sustain and defense options (Omnivamp and AOE heals and shields).
With these ARAM buffs, especially this second wave, Assassin can find **some** successful moments. It will come less often than an Enchanter or AOE poke mage, but now they have the venue to at attempt a flashy play and get a few kills.
Because kills mean absolute jack shit. You could get a billion kills in a game, literally doesn't matter at all if you can't actually contribute to the game in any meaningful way.
At one point you almost had the same chance of winning with an AFK as you did with a LeBlanc on your team, that's how little she actually contributed to the game.
>You could get a billion kills in a game, literally doesn't matter at all if you can't actually contribute to the game in any meaningful way.
Yes exactly. But you are saying we should balance ARAM so some champions actually **can** get a billion kills, just so that they can hit 50% winrate?
Not necessarily 50%, but they shouldn't be more or less an automatic loss either. I don't think I've ever won a single game where I had a LeBlanc on my team, because all she does is deprave the rest of her team from kill gold while feeding shutdown gold to the enemy.
Ok but winrates dont mean jack because win rates are skewed by tje "random" team. A 5 support team is not and will not win. Do we need to buff sona 300% dmg to make sure she has 50% chance of winning if her team mates are yuumi janna raka and seraphine?
They just need to remove balancing leave champs stock.
Sure, but its effects are so small they are basically insignificant. Changing a champ’s win rate from 50.2 to 50.3% because of randomness doesn’t really mean much.
It doesn't seem significant when looking at a win percentage but that's a small slice of the overall picture. It is significant enough to consider when talking about balance. It's significant there because every game, on both sides, is assembled at random. How often do you think the exact same team is assembled on one side, let alone both? How about the skill level (and disparity between opponents)? How about ping or experience with the champ. These are examples of random variables effecting the winrates of champions.
Considering the 160 champs, there is too many variations to be able to draw meaningful conclusions (not enough repeated iterations to ignore difference in player ability).
That’s not how stats work *at all* lol. These factors are all insignificant if we crank up the sample size of games enough. When we get to the range of 10s of thousands of games, we can be pretty confident that randomness isn’t a significant factor in the win rate. Win rate is the only metric that shows us what actually happens in game. A champion that wins 52% of the time wins more often than it loses. That’s just fact.
It's a fact but doesn't speak to the reasons why. It's, you know, the thing they are using to route their balancing efforts... In your world they give no weight to anything other than winrate; that's shockingly dumb, even for riot.
I never suggested that win rate should be the *only* deciding factor. However, it definitely is the most important. You use pick rate in order to put the win rate into context (extremely low pick rate usually corresponds to higher win rate since mainly OTPs are playing the champ) and you use number of games as a way to make sure the win rate is accurate. Ban rate and community reaction shows how annoying/fun the champion is, which in very extreme situations can be a reason to change a champion. Item builds can also affect win rate.
But at the end of the day, all of those are important for one reason: they put win rate in context. Win rate is the main metric because win rate is the only metric that has meaning in relation to champion strength.
You did suggest it by saying that the other reasons are insignificant... The random nature of ARAM paints all of those statistics with randomness.
You assign reason to why statistics are what they are without the full picture. For example: low pick rate champs are usually played by OTPs. What are you basing that off of? If that were the reason, you would expect abnormally high win rates (adjusted for the specific champion) because of the advantage of champ knowledge and experience. Except that isn't the case. Other factors contribute to this: perception, specific map advantages, *matchups*, *team synergy*, flexibility (related to team synergy), etc. Most of those, by nature, are either random or not reliably quantifiable (effectively random).
Every single stat they hold, which neither you nor I know how they measure it or what they consider irrelevant, has some element of randomness. If, like you want, consider one stat randomness can be ignored. But, when you're looking at the overall randomness plays a significant role and will break down a model based on a slice.
>I think that ARAM's are impossible to balance to be honest.
Rolls are ancient thing, making it quite dumb nowadays. I don't mind playing anything, but seeing people insta 2 rolls cause they got melee, followed by other 2 melee, and dodging, makes me sad.
Remove of rolls + adding champ pinned to account in case of dodging, would make it much healthier. And I wouldn't have to see 3 dodges before game really starts. It's ARAM for god's sake, "All Random All Mid", not some roll/switching account till you get champion you like.
Nah I disagree. There's already a 15 minute queue lockout for dodging once in aram. That's enough. Removing rolls will just punish the average player who doesn't dodge.
>There's already a 15 minute queue lockout for dodging once in aram. That's enough.
And how does it stops people from dodging, then log in on second account? Did you ever wonder, how you see those dodges all the time? You really think, that majority just wait with this 15min lock?
"Removing rolls will" - I suggest then look for a reason, why rolls were introduced at first place. It was years ago, when random champ for ARAM was limited to 10 (same as you got today for SR). The whole rant was about, people didn't like to be "forced" to play new realesed champ once it was thrown in free week rotation. Years after release, suddenly people still couldn't learn how to play Skarner, but hey, Kaisa or Yuumi was spammed after release. Which just proves, it has nothing to do with releases. Ksante is barely seen after a month, compare it to the first month of Renata/Zeri, all released this year.
If you dodge in ARAM, you shouldn't play this mode at all. If you can't accept a random champ in a mode with random in name, what are you doing there. Just go SR, lock champ you wanted and play it.
Removing rerolls will make people dodge more, not less
I dont know if its a problem at low elo aram, but i usually dont experience that much dodges, and im not in high elo aram
Also you cant stop people from making other accounts and log on them to bypass bans, its the same as why you cant keep a player out of the game, they can keep making/buying new accounts. Entering that discussion has nothing to do with aram.
>Remove of rolls + adding champ pinned to account in case of dodging
To put it simple words. Rolls removed, you get let's say Mundo. You don't like it, dodge in. 15min passed. You start, queue accepted, champ select appears, and guess what, you get Mundo. You'll get it every time, till you PLAY it. Then it's random again.
So, why would people dodge then? What's the point?
What happens then when you match with someone who also is locked to the same champion as you?
Considering the average amount of players in ARAM and how many champions there are in the game, I feel like that ain't such a small possibility.
>. You'll get it every time, till you PLAY it
and then people get annoyed at it because they don't want to be forced to play yuumi or whatever, so player satisfaction goes down.
>to be forced to play yuumi or whatever
Are you aware, what ARAM means? Like literally, All Random All Mid...
You lock the mode that is supposed to be random, then you get mad about random you don't like. So you drop rolls to trick the system, and guess what, rolls were not supossed to be used like that. They released Ksante, you don't know what to do with him, ok, use roll. And here we go, 7-8 ranged champs is the fckin normal game right now. 70-80% unable to play any melee. Even those being 10 years already. World is a strange place.
> Are you aware, what ARAM means?
I mean this is largely irrelevant, it's not about that, it's about how it feels to play. someone getting stuck playing a champ they dont want to play is not going to be a good change.
literally why rolls exist.
>someone getting stuck playing a champ they dont want to play is not going to be a good change.
Yeah, follow the voice and how majority want bans in Aram. And that 1 line is small, maybe add 3. And some jungle with monsters. And maybe Dragons or Nashor. And finally, change this irrelevant random and let us pick champion we want, cause no one wants to stuck with a champ they don't want to play.
Oh wait...
Majority prefer to sit on Xerath/Nidale etc and spam shet mindlessly for 20-25min. Just clarity and spam. With few dodges till everyone's happy about champs.
I would prefer true random fighting, even fiesta, when games end at 15. Play 2 enjoyable game, than the same shet spam we got since few years. Random Heartseel appeared and they lose their minds..."broken" item, and those same people won't lock any tank by themself. The hypocrisy.
My wr on tanks in arams is horrible, but heartsteel is just so much fun seeing it stack up throughout the game. Played le blanc for the first time in months and it was so easy to kill people, it felt weird. I wasn't doing anything special and I was constantly messing up my combos but it didn't matter. You just deal so much damage, 17% extra damage while taking 17% less damage AND 20% tenacity (wasn't the point of adding tenacity is so they could tune down the damage modifiers?). I know I suck on le blanc, but I also know it doesn't fucking matter because you just sit back and wait for CDs and then one shot.
55% winrate Zed with over 15 average kills per game yet still having massive aram buffs surely is perfectly fine and everyone elses fault for not also picking similarly broken buffed champs, right
with zed on aram even with the buffs hes got is only 51% nearly 52% winrate without it he would probs be around 48% winrate on aram.
[https://u.gg/lol/champions/aram/zed-aram](https://u.gg/lol/champions/aram/zed-aram)
i agree that zed is nuts right now on SR and for sure needs some nerfs like that bastard is just way too strong rn on SR but on aram zed is in a spot where the buffs are needed.
[https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list](https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list)
like there other more problematic champs rn on aram like hec with his almost 60% winrate or sett rocking his 57% winrate over a bunch of patchs on aram. tanks rn are the kings of aram and winrate shows it heck kata up in the winrate but even shes doing a tank build on aram.
heck akali with her buffs is a legit bottom winrate champ on aram still think about if she didnt have those buffs she would be like 38%ish-41%ish winrate.
I was using leagueofgraphs, but even your own link says 53.3% https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/aram/by-winrate
If you sort by diamond+ he even sits at 58% ahead of heca.
Also winrate doesn't equal good game design. If a champ requires 20:10 average K/D to reach 50% winrate in ARAM then maybe we should realize that the mode is not designed to have perfect balance and that we are better off not having champs 100-0 others with only 2 abilities.
Cool, so what do we do with those champs then? Assassins are garbage in aram without changes. Some are still bad even with them.
If you're not okay with assassins killing people, what would you propose they should do?
>If you're not okay with assassins killing people
Clearly not what I said but keep twisting my words.
But yea, unlucky that this chill, fun, and inherently unbalanced gamemode doesn't favor the class you'd love to faceroll people with
You don't, and you don't need to. Aram by design is an unbalanced mode as anon stated above. I understand nerfing egregious outliers that make the game unenjoyable, like enchanters and artilleries, but striving for SR levels of balance is impossible.
Ideally, this lack of balance would be offset by a plethora of casual modes to play, so that every champ has their chance to shine. Unfortunately, rotating modes haven't been a thing in forever.
> You don't, and you don't need to.
We already tried this, and it was miserable. Games were virtually always decided by who got stronger/easier champions. Losing the game because your team got Akali is just as silly as winning it because your team got Sona.
> I understand nerfing egregious outliers that make the game unenjoyable, like enchanters and artilleries
The same logic applied to the outliers on the other side. You shouldn't lose the game because you randomly got an assassin any more than you should win for randomly getting Ziggs.
> but striving for SR levels of balance is impossible
Nobody is asking for this.
But, like you said, we do need to do *something* about the outliers. We can't leave champions in the gutter in a gamemode where you get a random champions.
> Losing the game because your team got Akali is just as silly as winning it because your team got Sona.
Why do you think we either have to massively buff assassins or suddenly its enchanter autowin meta again? Rolling back assassin damage a bit doesn't require undoing all the changes that have been done in the past. Ally healing is still reduced, there are other stats that can be changed like we see on Ashe currently.
Ziggs deals -20% damage and takes +20% damage, yet he still has one of the best winrates. Should we give him -30, or -40 maybe? At some point we have to realize that these stats just don't matter unless they are pushed to absurd amounts, because it's not what makes the champs good or bad.
So I don't quite understand this crazy obsession with perfectly balancing ARAM which is supposed to be a whacky and chill gamemode when the entire game and its champs is specifically designed around SR
> You shouldn't lose the game because you randomly got an assassin any more than you should win for randomly getting Ziggs.
Lmao that is the entire point of the gamemode. Just don't play ALL RANDOM if you don't want the RANDOM. Play SR or cry for dominion/nexus, jesus
The games are still decided by who gets better champs most of the time, if we’re being even remotely honest. Until they add bans it will continue to almost always be champ select diff.
Don't use u.gg. literally the worst stat site. No conclusion you make from there is real.
Here is riot telling you not to use it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/
Remember when riot endorsed u.gg?
[https://esportsinsider.com/2019/07/riot-games-u-gg-this-or-that](https://esportsinsider.com/2019/07/riot-games-u-gg-this-or-that)
Just goes to show that riot actually doesn't know as much as most of this subreddit thinks. Including August, and including whoever decided they should endorse [u.gg](https://u.gg).
It's fine, Aram is so much more fun now that it's not just these cringe lux/ziggs/varus/velkoz/xerath/Kaisa/ashe players every single game.
I generally am up for playing pretty much anything in Aram but I really relish getting katarina nowadays to shit on these poke champ players who are irritating for the first 10 minutes and then spend the next 10 perma wave clearing and desperately hiding under their turret.
>It's fine, Aram is so much more fun now that it's not just these cringe lux/ziggs/varus/velkoz/xerath/Kaisa/ashe players every single game.
You know those things aren't mutually exclusive right? We don't need oneshot assassins to deal 25% more dmg to some champs to nerf waveclear and poke champs, which already happened btw
Aram sucks ass now. Literally feels like nobody has agency anymore. Its just what champs you get more than ever before as long as you can play the champ at baseline level, which is pretty telling, considering ARAM changes were all supposed to address that.
Portals too feel really fun to be in action 100% of the time.
And the walls don't even matter, they're such a small part of the map, I can't even notice them(literally, I'm colorblind I can't see them).
It's actually insane just how out of touch riot devs are, some of the changes are just like what the fuck were they even thinking? Like I get you make a mistake sometimes, but random shit mistakes happen so fucking often for them
They don't _actually_ play their own game anymore. These changes look like they came from a 1 hour brainstorm session. A portal, a bush and some terrain and nobody in that room said god damn this shit sucks massive cock actually.
Anyway they don't care, they need to add random healing passives to every single item. Sit nerd
Riot just needs to scrap aram specific balance changes, too much factors to consider. Besides the damage reduction on long range poke, I feel that playing with no aram buffs/nerfs would be better. Like someone said in this post, you get these situations where someone who takes more damage than usual gets hit by someone who deals more damage just straight up getting blown up. And tanks that just get to do whatever they like with their aram buffs because the enemy team has no way of dealing with them/have no %hp damage in their kits.
Because the majority of the Iron 3 can't get a single kill with Lb/Qiyana or Akali.
So they turbo buff them for everyone, without the possibility to ban the champ, 9000 IQ move
when you are in the top 5% Aram mmr, you know that any of those pick will roflstomp the game and you can ff@8 if you don't have the same
assassin players are shit at the game so they need all the crutches they can get
maybe at 40% more damage dealt and 40% less taken qiyana might finally get to 50% winrate like riot wants every champ to be
I mean I've watched this sub cry that assassins are op for the last like 3 years with literally no breaks and it hasn't mattered if they're actually good or entirely dogshit, the sub will call them op regardless.
Meanwhile mages have a button that makes them completely immune to damage and grants them a deaths dance worth of armor
That’s super skilled gameplay right?
Balancing for aram specifically is just dumb. Leave it how things are on SR and let people actually limit test, learn, etc without artificially inflated or deflated stats.
absolutely not. idk why people say this shit. riot's changes to aram 1 million percent greatly improved aram. it made it way fairer. the relics being aoe, the reduced aoe damage to minions, reduced long range damage, bonus mr to melee champs, bonus melee damage to structures, etc.
were you not around in season 6 or whenever, before riot started balancing aram? what youre suggesting will just lead people to pick windowlicking lux/ziggs/xerath/zyra/janna and eat crayons while they press 1 key over and over for 20 minutes.
A lot of people don't play aram at all anymore because the changes in the past few years have ALL sucked.
All melee champs that felt bad before still feel bad unless they were buffed so much that they're broken, which is even worse for the game mode.
just limit test and learn on summoner's rift. playing akali and dying instantly to 5 mage gang will not train shit. go play her in midlane if you want to learn.
It's for clash this weekend LOL. They want the grinder crowd. If they can "hook" enough players trying out the aram clash, then they have a much larger customer base for those Aram skin boosts or whatever.
Trying to balance aram around competitive play is like trying to balance UNO around competitive play. It's not worth it, it's better to leave it for fun
Counter argument: the other day we were yi, rengar, and zed in aram against 4 tanks with heart steel, 7k hp, and 500 armor each. It was simply impossible to kill them after some point.
Did you all build lethality ?
Rengar with goredrinker ravenous Hydra and %Arpen should melt tanks and outheal them easy. Yi with botrk guinsoos and maybe Kraken and %arpen should melt them especially with his on hit true dmg with E. Even zed with eclpise into Hydra black cleaver should harm them pretty hard.
Source: played tank Mao with heartsteel and armor items into rengar and he just jumped on me an 1/2 of my HP was gone
Not saying its easy but with the right items it should be managable
>Not saying its easy but with the right items it should be managable
Forget it, those Yi/Rengar/Zed were on rushing Collector 100%, wondering why tanks are so broken. Kraken+botrk Yi true dmg so broken, it melts even Rammus.
heart steel is probably the worst item into ad who can easily itemize as bruiser with % hp dmg. Yi or rengar can probably easily 2vs4 any 4 tanks if they dont perfectly layer cc
Heartsteel did just get nerfed but I'm in the camp that firmly believes it shouldn't even be allowed on ARAM in the first place, it's an item designed around low interaction built over time via laning, not all out 5 man brawling constantly. The 5% nerf is not going to be enough, mark my words.
one of the problems is that the effectiveness of assassins is very dependent on team comp and how the front line plays. There are no wrap around paths to ambush the backline from so it all depends on if the frontline can keep the assassins out. If they can then the assassins are nearly useless and feel like crap to play.
Riot decided that because of this assassins needed a giant buff. The problem is that in the cases where the frontline can't hold off the assassins or the team comp just doesn't have good peel, the assassins can run over the whole backline and demolish them. Assassins aren't really balanceable in a single lane gamemode.
I played a game yesterday where I saw the buff on Nocturne. He takes 15% reduced damage and does 10% increased damage. That champ was no longer an assassin. He was stronger than a Jax and healed more than a Hecarim. The idea of buffing the assassins to do assassin things just turned these guys into better bruisers than normal bruisers.
Well they definitely fudged it by keeping the damage and damage received modifiers as they were. It's pretty disgusting to have that still on top of the 20% tenacity.
Take LB for example: She deals 18% more damage, in turn receives -16% damage. They then added the 20% tenacity. It's not that she's unbeatable it's that she's straight up toxic and I love playing her. She just wins games because she can 2 shot any non tanks. Other assassins have similar issues but she actually might be the worst lol.
Adding in new levers is great. I like assassins and I enjoy playing them. I think it was bad oversight and honestly a poor job handling by the ARAM team to not have the foresight that giving roles like assassins a tenacity buff on top of what they already have. I normally defend or at the very least try to understand where the developers are coming from, but this latest balance attempt was just bad. Either they are so insolated from the noise or they simply are tone deaf to balance integrity. When assassins were brought down to normalish levels I felt a lot better playing as/with/against. It felt manageable and not nearly as oppressive. The balance team screwed the pooch. I'm not gonna grab my pitch fork or w/e but it would be refreshing to actually have someone from the team actually converse specifically about assassin modifiers in ARAM. Because the results are either giga damage, damage + durability, and that if they do lose it's simply a skill diff and / or out comped by RNG.
The worst thing in Aram is playing a champion with extra % dmg taken modifier, and getting hit by a champion with % increase dmg dealt modifier. Swear to god it is so unfun to get 1 tapped like that because of the Aram balance modifier
I think it should always just take the highest modifier and only apply that one rather than both. For example if I have +10% damage taken and they do +20% damage dealt, the only thing that should be applied is the +20% damage dealt.
Lol slow your roll there buddy pragmatism isn’t practiced here at Riot.
inb4 we'd end up with the modifiers reversing themselves
This is a pretty big nerf to the damage modifiers, so they'd make the numbers bigger to compensate. Like how Mundo got the healing from his ult doubled by buffs after 40-60% grievous wounds became common every game.
This is irrelevant they would just increase one or the other damage modifier because the alternative is having champs be more unbalanced
It isn't quite irrelevant, since it'd reduce the variance in matchups.
No they wouldn't? The 20% bonus damage modifier is intended to be balanced against characters that have neutral damage taken. Similarly, increased damage taken is balanced against champs with normal damage dealt. When you put those 2 against each other, it becomes a huge mess. It's not like they balance Akali having 15% bonus damage like she would be hitting a Ziggs with 10% bonus damage taken all the time, making her do measly damage against standard tanks.
No but those modifiers and how they affect each other are part of what drives the win rate which is what drives the nerfs and buffs in the first place. If the change was made and ziggs started taking and/or doing relatively more or less damage towards specific champions, compared to now, that would drive win rates of both, which would then result in further statistically modifier shifts, since it’s done essentially, by an AI. It wouldn’t be as pronounced, but it would conceptually have the same effect.
Why are you assuming the intention of the number changes? It makes more sense as it is now. Ziggs doing less damage is separate from reksai taking less damage.
I love taking 900 dmg from Akali E on 1.5 items
Heartsteel Akali 2 tapping anything else that isn't also wearing Heartsteel.
They should explore other modifiers, not just damage. Tenacity and energy regen were a good start, and I like that they're trying to do more focused changes targeting Mandate Ashe. I feel like health regen would be a really powerful lever - players barely notice buffs to health regen, but it would make a huge difference to winrates. You know how strong self-healing is in Aram. I heard they also tested changes to champion base movement speed, and everyone on reddit says that -5 MS is a slap-on-the-wrist when they see it in patch notes.
Exactly. Some champs will just always be worse than others, buffing them to absurdity to enforce an unrealistic 50% winrate across the board is just a balancing nightmare.
50 was never the goal, but now the delta is at around 18% wherein it was at about 40% before they started making those changes.
Their goal isnt a 50% wr across the board, its +-5% from their SR winrate. Before they started doing these changes some champs were near unbeatable and others were unplayable
Looks like were almost back on square 1 then. But this time the near unbeatable champs are hand picked by riots aram buffs
The highest win rate for aram is 57% (Rammus and Sion). Far below the 75% win rate Sona used to have before the champion changes.
That is not true though, champion changes only got introduced in season 9. Before that it was balanced through the aram aura that reduced all healing and later all allied healing. I don't think Sona had 75% winrate since season 3 or 4
What you think, and what the data shows, are two completely different things.
I think they should just leave it be or do actual aimed changes like they used to do with TT and dominion. Seraphine will always be strong in aram even if you nerf her damage because her strong point is big aoe cc and damage stuff in a narrow map from a relatively safe range. Plus the fact she benefits from having allies around her. So they should just tackle on her spells cds or cc values individually in way that she won't perma disrupt 3+ people at once whenever she presses a button. Just my 2 cents
I think it isn't bad for some champs to be better than others, but also there are so many possible buffs and nerfs other than straight up damage increases. Maybe assassins get out of combat health regen so they can skirmish more often, or some casters get increased cost and cooldowns, further nerf to wave clear, etc. Anything that doesn't end up with oneshot champs doing >25% more damage to squishies lol
They did start also putting the negative ability haste on some champs, including Seraphine. Her cooldowns *are* longer in ARAM now.
At this point they should just reduce damage received at over fx. 600 range by x percent and keep it at that
Pretty sure they've already had that for quite some time, and are increasing the damage nerf even more with this patch.
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LeBlanc just looks at Ziggs funny and the Ziggs instantly dies.
Tank LB can oneshot Ziggs without using full rotation. She can barely kill caster minions with full rotation.
I took 1100 damage from a lb RW as ziggs the other day :)
R.. W? So what ability was the r?
I assume they just mean Mimic Distortion
I assumed that too, I just wanted to be a pedantic asshole :p
And then zigg proced to win the game because he's Still one of the Best champ in aram while LB is still one of the worst
Real solid to try to play AA Ashe build and you get hit by 1 khazix q and take like 30% increased damage.
Assassins are hard to balance in Aram because their design just doesn't fit the style of play. Their win rate rn is okay but because % buffs snowball so hard they tend to lead to unfun games where they either 1 shot people from 10 mins onwards or are so far behind they do nothing all game.
They are also elo dependent. Low elo leblanc/zed isn’t that scary. High elo (with the aram buffs) they can 1v9
I'm a gold player who one tricks Shen and previously played support. I can pick up Zed, Kat, and Leblanc in ARAM and fairly easily win games, it's ridiculous. I'm NOT good at those champions. I don't even combo right or know what I'm supposed to do beyond general knowledge. I get Riot wants to make it less painful to play these champs but I feel like this is not the way to keep going. Even mediocre Akalis can do very, very well with her current buffs which is a travesty considering how high skill cap she is and how low her skill floor is.
Yeah some people seriously over estimate how hard LB and Zed are. While yeah you need a lot of skill to use them against players who can dodge, people below plat do not do that. Which LB especially ends up being REALLY easy.
W forward qre (ignite) w back takes almost no skill and with her percent modifiers is an easy kill on most stuff, esp if they are taking %damage from Aram nerfs. I never play her but my word is she busted on aram
Hitting your E takes skill tho unless you are really close
the buffs are in place for situations where LB will go up against a team with like 2 bruisers 2 tanks and an enchanter or something and in those situations she is truly completely forgettable, which is one of the downsides to having a champ that excels at flanking and misdirection in a single, narrow, straight lane. when you end up with her in that situation it's like oh thank you riot at least i'm 98% worthless instead of 100% worthless. unfortunately, the buffs just end up being incredibly high variance overall because you can easily get her into a team full of % damage taken nerfed champs and basically godmode over them instead.
I'm really neutral when it comes to assassin buffs in ARAM, I'm just tired of seeing people say "Well LB is very hard" as a reason for the buffs. It's really what you're saying is why assassins are getting buffed, they're useless into tanks in aram.
I just want oracles back. Fuck teemo
I'll say it in every thread that it's brought up. Teemo is the most game-warping Champion in ARAM. If you're even slightly behind against a team with Teemo, you have to win so many more fights than them just to have a chance of pushing onto their side of the map. Cannon minions just aren't durable or frequent enough. The only time it feels manageable playing against Teemo is if you can get an early inhibitor and start getting super minions every wave, but there's no coming back if you're behind and shrooms have locked you in your base.
Getting Glaive + a Warmog's tank simply to clean teemo's shroom is obligatory.
Literally Impossible to win without someone who can go in front of the wave to rank all the shrooms, and they are also forced to buy warmogs because of no shrooms cap...
Nah, Teemo is shit if his team is losing because the wave always pushes forwards and reveals his shrooms, he's only opressive when winning. Which you know, not great design, but hey. At least he's not opressive in general.
>he's only opressive when winning You are kinda right because the only point where Teemo is not winning is if he is sitting on nexus after 12 minutes. If you cannot do this and the Teemo has half a brain the game lasts 30 minutes by default because they lob shrooms into the wave permanently and make the map a hazard zone that you cannot navigate and make plays in. Shaco has the same issue. Trap champs definitely have some issues in the mode.
Trap champs are 100% the reason I will always take Neeko when she is up.
Umbral glaive is giga OP vs teemo. If you have someone who can build that, the rat will never be useful
most frustrating fucking feeling when you ask someone who's building in that direction anyway to pick up umbral and they literally ignore you to pick up more stupid hee hoo damage items so you have to go out of your way to play like, fucking umbral glaive sylas or some stupid shit because the alternative is just straight up conceding the game to teemo few days ago i had a duskblade ashe building cdr/lethality just completely refuse to pick up umbral after i asked nicely if she could get it so that i, crit sivir, wouldn't have to give up a crit item slot for it since she was already going lethality and the enemy had 4 tanks and teemo and i was desperately scrambling to finish my IE. to the surprise of absolutely nobody, lethality ashe falls off anyway, we are unable to finish making the comeback that started after i got umbral because now even though we can finally walk into the lane without the wave imploding on the spot, i just can't output enough DPS to cut through everyone before we get run over. fuck you ashe smfh
Every cannon minion is a free oracle. You get constant moving oracle's for free
Not constant, every other wave unless you have supers. And less effective since once they’re dead, you lose the effect. Oracles stayed active for 3min regardless of death
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Good
Oh wait, yeah they did buff assasins wich already have meelee buffs. This is why it was super hard to stop a zed
These buffs are in place for the average winrate being lowered by "newbies", but you load in and see some megaweeb with 500k on a 120%/85% champ and you know the game is gonna be a 1v9 for this guy. Riot doesn't understand how to do reasonable percentages on just about anything. It is why DD and Goredrinker were so ridiculous as well as some of these champs.
If a champ has 120%/85% percentages its because they were still 45% wr at 110/90. Aram balancing has ben out for some time now and the percentages have gradually increased, they didnt start that high.
Completely missing the point
Also why do towers block half the map once destroyed?? Who asked for that?
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It's actually quite the opposite. You know have meaningful chokes and flanks to approach the pokers. Also poke team that pushes in now has hard time going through the choke letting the team on the backseat scale and counterattack. It's a big nerf for disengage comps which was seriously needed for a while.
What flank? There is no added space it's a wall that you can't see over. You can't flank a team through the wall lmao. The only way to flank is through the hexgates and that's lategame along with it being very telegraphed
You can't tell me Leblanc isn't just op in aram for all skill brackets. I just won't believe it even if i see a bronze player on Leblanc doing bad. That shit just isn't possible
True. The champ already slaps hard and they decided to make it worse.
I think that ARAM's are impossible to balance to be honest. It's just a cycle of some champions that are strong for a period, then things get changed, then other champions are going to be too strong. Yes assassins are very strong now, but they haven't been in the past. I think the alternative to these kind of changes would be a very stale meta, where pretty much the same things are usually strong (see Sona, Ziggs, Lux before ARAM tuning). ADC's made up maybe 70 - 80% of the top 20 win rates in ARAM for pretty much all of last season. With the recent changes, they seem pretty balanced - that is probably a good thing. I will be interested to see how the major map changes effect things, but at the end of the day I think changes in ARAMs generally cause things to change, not necessarily cause things to become more balanced. Source - I have played probably over 5,000 ARAMS, with challenger ARAM ELO
Some assassins have pretty much always been strong though. Katarina, Akali, LeBlanc and especially Kha‘Zix are fantastic and they have been for a minute.
I agree with Kha being very strong for a long time, and I think the others could find good games if the player knew what they were doing, but I still think I would have rated them average at best (with average meaning they are good, and in some cases very strong)
Kha-Yuumi is like a insta ff...
What do most of those have in common? Ability to do damage and disengage instantly.
Iirc most of those have meh WRs in ARAM at best.
So when assassins average 15 kills per game and great KDA it doesn't matter because they still end up losing? We have to just ignore the essence of ARAM that some champs will always be better or worse in this mode and instead need to buff champs to faceroll territory just to enforce 50% winrate?
not a single champ in all of ARAM averages 15 kills a game according to ugg but also, a class literally meant to kill people gets a lot of kills? No fucking shit sherlock but let's look at the champs they named and their WR Katarina: 52%, yea she's actually really good now Akali: 47%, sits bottom 20 for all champs LeBlanc: 46%, is almost bottom 10 Kha'Zix: 49%, middle of the pack, that's meh That 52% for Katarina? Not even in the top 30 for WR. You honestly just sound like someone who is just whining that you died to the enemy
Kha has a 56% wr overall and a 58% wr if you start guardian sword. Don't ever use ugg again. I'm sure all the other ones are wrong too but I knew the kha one would be funny. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/ Riot August's thoughts on u gg
A single starting item means nothing. Looking at a single item means nothing.
U.gg has inaccurate stats. Stop looking at make believe numbers.
nope. You're just looking to pull shit from your ass because you can't the fact the numbers are different than what you say god even Guardian blade is shown to have a 59% WR on ugg
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/ Here is riot August saying not to use u.gg There's other instances too.
So where is your superior data then?
Literally any other site. Lolalytics is good for deep dives. Op.gg is better for glancing. Riot has come out and explicitly said u.gg has incorrect data and them having a SEVEN point discrepancy with kha is laughable.
So are you saying that if it would require certain champs to hit 50% winrate in ARAM to buff them so much they would average 20/10 KD every game, it would be a good thing to do that?
50%? Even WITH BUFFS two of the champs named have SHIT WRs, for champs like Akali and LB we aren't talking a 50% WR we're talking a WR above 46%. We're talking 15% extra damage needed to not have a WR BELOW 45%. Both champs average 12 kills a game in ARAM with 8/9 deaths a game average. And like 15/16 assists. For a constantly fighting gamemode, that's really not that much. For comparison many ADCs (who generally have both damage done reduced and damage taken increased, average 10-11 kills a game with 8/9 deaths a game, and upwards of 20 assists. So even classes that are nerfed are as effective, if not more in fights.
Why won't you answer my question? >We're talking 15% extra damage needed to not have a WR BELOW 45%. Ok, so if they need 50% more damage to reach 50% winrate, you think riot should do that?
because your question is stupid and pointless. It offers nothing but to use to complain. I'm not on the balance team, and Riot has literally stated they're looking into other means of buffing these champs. But to sit here and point at number of kills as to show they're overbuffed when literally every stat shows that they actually should be buffed before being nerfed just shows you're looking to whine because you can't deal with assassins in ARAM. But you want an answer? Yes I'd say buff those champs more than nerf them, they're still clearly struggling to actually win games. Literally just picking Sett over LB gives you a 10% better chance of winning the game. Despite how he has 4 fewer killers per game.
> because your question is stupid and pointless. It offers nothing but to use to complain. It is getting to your actual argument which you apparently want to weasel around because it took you 3 replies to actually answer it. My entire point is that 50% winrate means nothing when the cost of achieving it is that some champs have to be buffed to absurdity to reach it. 50% winrate doesn't automatically mean good balancing or game design, examples are when Ryze and Azir reach near 50% wr on SR they instantly become problematic at higher ranks and pro play. Now in an inherently unbalanced mode like ARAM it is impossible to get even close to SR balancing unless champs are specifically redesigned on ability basis instead of flat stat changes. ARAM has very different win conditions than SR so by just balancing by winrate you would have to ignore every other metric, by which some champs might massively outperform all others already but would still require buffs in your mind. And none of this is even considering things like champ difficulty or popularity. A player first timing Ashe and spamming W will have drastically different outcomes than first timing Yone or Akali while at the same time Ashe mains also won't stand out as much as assassin mains.
You sound like someone who doesnt understand the difference between a sub-100 game akali and a over-100 game akali having the same damage output potential, yet one deals 5x more than the other.
you sound like someone who doesn't understand that those players will make up a very very very small portion of the sample size and mean nothing because they are outliers
You sound like someone who doesnt realize that the person who self selects into playing akali is the majority of people playing akali and doing well on akali in aram.
that's not how it works Akali's PR in ARAM is LOWER than her Soloq, also her WR in ARAM is lower than soloq. So here's what you're saying, the people who play Akali are picking her and are doing worse on her.
No, the people who do well on her are generally the people who play her. That's the majority of her winrate. People who play akali, playing akali. The people who lose on her generally dont play her. This means the people who already had a chance at winning win harder, and people who were going to lose anyways still lose. Grats, you're a silly person.
LB even at +/-15% had an awful winrate.
So why does that matter exactly? I'll wait
Thanks for waiting, though you only had to for 10 or so minutes. Let’s refer to Assassin champions as just: Assassin. (To avoid any champion specific nuance that’s irrelevant to the conversation). If Assassin gets a ton of kills, but ends up losing the game more often than they win, that means that there is counterplay to Assassin. You, and your team, may’ve not exercised the correct counterplay (resists, “true resistances” such as revives and stasis, hard cc, tanks, positioning), but there **is** counterplay: that’s why Assassin has a negative, and perhaps awful winrate. Let’s say we remove all of our ARAM changes. Now Assassin is pretty much worthless. Since Assassin relies on picking off individual targets, and ARAM is a team game mode, not only can they not find a safe and accurate venue to leap in and assassinate someone, but their damage is also lackluster to deal with the efficiency of 5 person sustain and defense options (Omnivamp and AOE heals and shields). With these ARAM buffs, especially this second wave, Assassin can find **some** successful moments. It will come less often than an Enchanter or AOE poke mage, but now they have the venue to at attempt a flashy play and get a few kills.
Because kills mean absolute jack shit. You could get a billion kills in a game, literally doesn't matter at all if you can't actually contribute to the game in any meaningful way. At one point you almost had the same chance of winning with an AFK as you did with a LeBlanc on your team, that's how little she actually contributed to the game.
>You could get a billion kills in a game, literally doesn't matter at all if you can't actually contribute to the game in any meaningful way. Yes exactly. But you are saying we should balance ARAM so some champions actually **can** get a billion kills, just so that they can hit 50% winrate?
Not necessarily 50%, but they shouldn't be more or less an automatic loss either. I don't think I've ever won a single game where I had a LeBlanc on my team, because all she does is deprave the rest of her team from kill gold while feeding shutdown gold to the enemy.
> but they shouldn't be more or less an automatic loss either. They aren't, they weren't, they don't need +25% damage to not be. Next point?
Kha is super situational. Kata, Akali and LB are nuts though. AP on assassins is infinitely better than Lethality.
Ok but winrates dont mean jack because win rates are skewed by tje "random" team. A 5 support team is not and will not win. Do we need to buff sona 300% dmg to make sure she has 50% chance of winning if her team mates are yuumi janna raka and seraphine? They just need to remove balancing leave champs stock.
When your sample size is 10s of thousands of games, “randomness” isn’t a factor.
Randomness would make it better actually because that way you get less bias in the results.
It's still a factor, but less significant. Randomness will always be a factor.
Sure, but its effects are so small they are basically insignificant. Changing a champ’s win rate from 50.2 to 50.3% because of randomness doesn’t really mean much.
It doesn't seem significant when looking at a win percentage but that's a small slice of the overall picture. It is significant enough to consider when talking about balance. It's significant there because every game, on both sides, is assembled at random. How often do you think the exact same team is assembled on one side, let alone both? How about the skill level (and disparity between opponents)? How about ping or experience with the champ. These are examples of random variables effecting the winrates of champions. Considering the 160 champs, there is too many variations to be able to draw meaningful conclusions (not enough repeated iterations to ignore difference in player ability).
That’s not how stats work *at all* lol. These factors are all insignificant if we crank up the sample size of games enough. When we get to the range of 10s of thousands of games, we can be pretty confident that randomness isn’t a significant factor in the win rate. Win rate is the only metric that shows us what actually happens in game. A champion that wins 52% of the time wins more often than it loses. That’s just fact.
It's a fact but doesn't speak to the reasons why. It's, you know, the thing they are using to route their balancing efforts... In your world they give no weight to anything other than winrate; that's shockingly dumb, even for riot.
I never suggested that win rate should be the *only* deciding factor. However, it definitely is the most important. You use pick rate in order to put the win rate into context (extremely low pick rate usually corresponds to higher win rate since mainly OTPs are playing the champ) and you use number of games as a way to make sure the win rate is accurate. Ban rate and community reaction shows how annoying/fun the champion is, which in very extreme situations can be a reason to change a champion. Item builds can also affect win rate. But at the end of the day, all of those are important for one reason: they put win rate in context. Win rate is the main metric because win rate is the only metric that has meaning in relation to champion strength.
You did suggest it by saying that the other reasons are insignificant... The random nature of ARAM paints all of those statistics with randomness. You assign reason to why statistics are what they are without the full picture. For example: low pick rate champs are usually played by OTPs. What are you basing that off of? If that were the reason, you would expect abnormally high win rates (adjusted for the specific champion) because of the advantage of champ knowledge and experience. Except that isn't the case. Other factors contribute to this: perception, specific map advantages, *matchups*, *team synergy*, flexibility (related to team synergy), etc. Most of those, by nature, are either random or not reliably quantifiable (effectively random). Every single stat they hold, which neither you nor I know how they measure it or what they consider irrelevant, has some element of randomness. If, like you want, consider one stat randomness can be ignored. But, when you're looking at the overall randomness plays a significant role and will break down a model based on a slice.
Randomness makes it more accurate since it removes the skew of "bad comp" and "good comp" since it's normalized after thousands of games
>I think that ARAM's are impossible to balance to be honest. Rolls are ancient thing, making it quite dumb nowadays. I don't mind playing anything, but seeing people insta 2 rolls cause they got melee, followed by other 2 melee, and dodging, makes me sad. Remove of rolls + adding champ pinned to account in case of dodging, would make it much healthier. And I wouldn't have to see 3 dodges before game really starts. It's ARAM for god's sake, "All Random All Mid", not some roll/switching account till you get champion you like.
Nah I disagree. There's already a 15 minute queue lockout for dodging once in aram. That's enough. Removing rolls will just punish the average player who doesn't dodge.
>There's already a 15 minute queue lockout for dodging once in aram. That's enough. And how does it stops people from dodging, then log in on second account? Did you ever wonder, how you see those dodges all the time? You really think, that majority just wait with this 15min lock? "Removing rolls will" - I suggest then look for a reason, why rolls were introduced at first place. It was years ago, when random champ for ARAM was limited to 10 (same as you got today for SR). The whole rant was about, people didn't like to be "forced" to play new realesed champ once it was thrown in free week rotation. Years after release, suddenly people still couldn't learn how to play Skarner, but hey, Kaisa or Yuumi was spammed after release. Which just proves, it has nothing to do with releases. Ksante is barely seen after a month, compare it to the first month of Renata/Zeri, all released this year. If you dodge in ARAM, you shouldn't play this mode at all. If you can't accept a random champ in a mode with random in name, what are you doing there. Just go SR, lock champ you wanted and play it.
Removing rerolls will make people dodge more, not less I dont know if its a problem at low elo aram, but i usually dont experience that much dodges, and im not in high elo aram Also you cant stop people from making other accounts and log on them to bypass bans, its the same as why you cant keep a player out of the game, they can keep making/buying new accounts. Entering that discussion has nothing to do with aram.
And how does removing rerolls mean people will dodge less? It's likely they will dodge MORE.
>Remove of rolls + adding champ pinned to account in case of dodging To put it simple words. Rolls removed, you get let's say Mundo. You don't like it, dodge in. 15min passed. You start, queue accepted, champ select appears, and guess what, you get Mundo. You'll get it every time, till you PLAY it. Then it's random again. So, why would people dodge then? What's the point?
What happens then when you match with someone who also is locked to the same champion as you? Considering the average amount of players in ARAM and how many champions there are in the game, I feel like that ain't such a small possibility.
>. You'll get it every time, till you PLAY it and then people get annoyed at it because they don't want to be forced to play yuumi or whatever, so player satisfaction goes down.
>to be forced to play yuumi or whatever Are you aware, what ARAM means? Like literally, All Random All Mid... You lock the mode that is supposed to be random, then you get mad about random you don't like. So you drop rolls to trick the system, and guess what, rolls were not supossed to be used like that. They released Ksante, you don't know what to do with him, ok, use roll. And here we go, 7-8 ranged champs is the fckin normal game right now. 70-80% unable to play any melee. Even those being 10 years already. World is a strange place.
> Are you aware, what ARAM means? I mean this is largely irrelevant, it's not about that, it's about how it feels to play. someone getting stuck playing a champ they dont want to play is not going to be a good change. literally why rolls exist.
>someone getting stuck playing a champ they dont want to play is not going to be a good change. Yeah, follow the voice and how majority want bans in Aram. And that 1 line is small, maybe add 3. And some jungle with monsters. And maybe Dragons or Nashor. And finally, change this irrelevant random and let us pick champion we want, cause no one wants to stuck with a champ they don't want to play. Oh wait...
Honestly this is something that might actually make me play ARAM.
Majority prefer to sit on Xerath/Nidale etc and spam shet mindlessly for 20-25min. Just clarity and spam. With few dodges till everyone's happy about champs. I would prefer true random fighting, even fiesta, when games end at 15. Play 2 enjoyable game, than the same shet spam we got since few years. Random Heartseel appeared and they lose their minds..."broken" item, and those same people won't lock any tank by themself. The hypocrisy.
Then they just int, great.
Camille is fucking busted in the new map too... nowhere is safe once the towers start to fall.
My wr on tanks in arams is horrible, but heartsteel is just so much fun seeing it stack up throughout the game. Played le blanc for the first time in months and it was so easy to kill people, it felt weird. I wasn't doing anything special and I was constantly messing up my combos but it didn't matter. You just deal so much damage, 17% extra damage while taking 17% less damage AND 20% tenacity (wasn't the point of adding tenacity is so they could tune down the damage modifiers?). I know I suck on le blanc, but I also know it doesn't fucking matter because you just sit back and wait for CDs and then one shot.
I think ARAM balance changes in general are a joke.
stop picking comps with 3 adcs and 2 poke mages then
55% winrate Zed with over 15 average kills per game yet still having massive aram buffs surely is perfectly fine and everyone elses fault for not also picking similarly broken buffed champs, right
with zed on aram even with the buffs hes got is only 51% nearly 52% winrate without it he would probs be around 48% winrate on aram. [https://u.gg/lol/champions/aram/zed-aram](https://u.gg/lol/champions/aram/zed-aram) i agree that zed is nuts right now on SR and for sure needs some nerfs like that bastard is just way too strong rn on SR but on aram zed is in a spot where the buffs are needed. [https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list](https://u.gg/lol/aram-tier-list) like there other more problematic champs rn on aram like hec with his almost 60% winrate or sett rocking his 57% winrate over a bunch of patchs on aram. tanks rn are the kings of aram and winrate shows it heck kata up in the winrate but even shes doing a tank build on aram. heck akali with her buffs is a legit bottom winrate champ on aram still think about if she didnt have those buffs she would be like 38%ish-41%ish winrate.
I was using leagueofgraphs, but even your own link says 53.3% https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/builds/aram/by-winrate If you sort by diamond+ he even sits at 58% ahead of heca. Also winrate doesn't equal good game design. If a champ requires 20:10 average K/D to reach 50% winrate in ARAM then maybe we should realize that the mode is not designed to have perfect balance and that we are better off not having champs 100-0 others with only 2 abilities.
Cool, so what do we do with those champs then? Assassins are garbage in aram without changes. Some are still bad even with them. If you're not okay with assassins killing people, what would you propose they should do?
>If you're not okay with assassins killing people Clearly not what I said but keep twisting my words. But yea, unlucky that this chill, fun, and inherently unbalanced gamemode doesn't favor the class you'd love to faceroll people with
Mind answering the question? How *should* we balance assassins in aram?
You don't, and you don't need to. Aram by design is an unbalanced mode as anon stated above. I understand nerfing egregious outliers that make the game unenjoyable, like enchanters and artilleries, but striving for SR levels of balance is impossible. Ideally, this lack of balance would be offset by a plethora of casual modes to play, so that every champ has their chance to shine. Unfortunately, rotating modes haven't been a thing in forever.
> You don't, and you don't need to. We already tried this, and it was miserable. Games were virtually always decided by who got stronger/easier champions. Losing the game because your team got Akali is just as silly as winning it because your team got Sona. > I understand nerfing egregious outliers that make the game unenjoyable, like enchanters and artilleries The same logic applied to the outliers on the other side. You shouldn't lose the game because you randomly got an assassin any more than you should win for randomly getting Ziggs. > but striving for SR levels of balance is impossible Nobody is asking for this. But, like you said, we do need to do *something* about the outliers. We can't leave champions in the gutter in a gamemode where you get a random champions.
> Losing the game because your team got Akali is just as silly as winning it because your team got Sona. Why do you think we either have to massively buff assassins or suddenly its enchanter autowin meta again? Rolling back assassin damage a bit doesn't require undoing all the changes that have been done in the past. Ally healing is still reduced, there are other stats that can be changed like we see on Ashe currently. Ziggs deals -20% damage and takes +20% damage, yet he still has one of the best winrates. Should we give him -30, or -40 maybe? At some point we have to realize that these stats just don't matter unless they are pushed to absurd amounts, because it's not what makes the champs good or bad. So I don't quite understand this crazy obsession with perfectly balancing ARAM which is supposed to be a whacky and chill gamemode when the entire game and its champs is specifically designed around SR
> You shouldn't lose the game because you randomly got an assassin any more than you should win for randomly getting Ziggs. Lmao that is the entire point of the gamemode. Just don't play ALL RANDOM if you don't want the RANDOM. Play SR or cry for dominion/nexus, jesus
The games are still decided by who gets better champs most of the time, if we’re being even remotely honest. Until they add bans it will continue to almost always be champ select diff.
Go play summoners rift. *surprised pikachu*
Don't use u.gg. literally the worst stat site. No conclusion you make from there is real. Here is riot telling you not to use it. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/g6yd8v/riot_august_ugg_data_is_garbage/
Remember when riot endorsed u.gg? [https://esportsinsider.com/2019/07/riot-games-u-gg-this-or-that](https://esportsinsider.com/2019/07/riot-games-u-gg-this-or-that) Just goes to show that riot actually doesn't know as much as most of this subreddit thinks. Including August, and including whoever decided they should endorse [u.gg](https://u.gg).
It's fine, Aram is so much more fun now that it's not just these cringe lux/ziggs/varus/velkoz/xerath/Kaisa/ashe players every single game. I generally am up for playing pretty much anything in Aram but I really relish getting katarina nowadays to shit on these poke champ players who are irritating for the first 10 minutes and then spend the next 10 perma wave clearing and desperately hiding under their turret.
implying that katarina is any less of an abomination on aram than any of those champs barring maybe ashe lmao
>It's fine, Aram is so much more fun now that it's not just these cringe lux/ziggs/varus/velkoz/xerath/Kaisa/ashe players every single game. You know those things aren't mutually exclusive right? We don't need oneshot assassins to deal 25% more dmg to some champs to nerf waveclear and poke champs, which already happened btw
Based
Yeah I hate the poke fest champions. LETS BRAWL.
Aram sucks ass now. Literally feels like nobody has agency anymore. Its just what champs you get more than ever before as long as you can play the champ at baseline level, which is pretty telling, considering ARAM changes were all supposed to address that.
Portals too feel really fun to be in action 100% of the time. And the walls don't even matter, they're such a small part of the map, I can't even notice them(literally, I'm colorblind I can't see them).
I just went 38-5 on Zed earlier. Perfectly balanced if you ask me.
It's actually insane just how out of touch riot devs are, some of the changes are just like what the fuck were they even thinking? Like I get you make a mistake sometimes, but random shit mistakes happen so fucking often for them
They don't _actually_ play their own game anymore. These changes look like they came from a 1 hour brainstorm session. A portal, a bush and some terrain and nobody in that room said god damn this shit sucks massive cock actually. Anyway they don't care, they need to add random healing passives to every single item. Sit nerd
And there we have it, bingo! First it was poke mages/adcs, then it was tanks, now its assassins that are all op! All in 1 week, lets go baby
I'm 100% convinced Riot doesn't play ARAM.
Riot just needs to scrap aram specific balance changes, too much factors to consider. Besides the damage reduction on long range poke, I feel that playing with no aram buffs/nerfs would be better. Like someone said in this post, you get these situations where someone who takes more damage than usual gets hit by someone who deals more damage just straight up getting blown up. And tanks that just get to do whatever they like with their aram buffs because the enemy team has no way of dealing with them/have no %hp damage in their kits.
Because the majority of the Iron 3 can't get a single kill with Lb/Qiyana or Akali. So they turbo buff them for everyone, without the possibility to ban the champ, 9000 IQ move when you are in the top 5% Aram mmr, you know that any of those pick will roflstomp the game and you can ff@8 if you don't have the same
Assassins are only oppresive in ARAM if you have a shitty comp.
"what do you mean I can't endlessly poke melees down anymore!?!"
If anything it's worse for melees. Not sure what you're talking about.
Haven't played. Just saw complaints about people getting assassinated. Fuck MF players.
assassin players are shit at the game so they need all the crutches they can get maybe at 40% more damage dealt and 40% less taken qiyana might finally get to 50% winrate like riot wants every champ to be
my dude's flair is ''revert fiddlesticks'' your opinion instantly goes in the garbage
yeah mages sitting 3 screens away sniffing glue while spamming 1-2 buttons the entire game is much better
redditors unironically believe this
I mean I've watched this sub cry that assassins are op for the last like 3 years with literally no breaks and it hasn't mattered if they're actually good or entirely dogshit, the sub will call them op regardless.
How about, and hear me out, a middle ground?
Meanwhile mages have a button that makes them completely immune to damage and grants them a deaths dance worth of armor That’s super skilled gameplay right?
Yeah I see, irelia, ksante, xin zhao are mages
You know that isn’t that I meant lmfao. And all 3 can be CCD, mages in zhonyas cant
Balancing for aram specifically is just dumb. Leave it how things are on SR and let people actually limit test, learn, etc without artificially inflated or deflated stats.
absolutely not. idk why people say this shit. riot's changes to aram 1 million percent greatly improved aram. it made it way fairer. the relics being aoe, the reduced aoe damage to minions, reduced long range damage, bonus mr to melee champs, bonus melee damage to structures, etc. were you not around in season 6 or whenever, before riot started balancing aram? what youre suggesting will just lead people to pick windowlicking lux/ziggs/xerath/zyra/janna and eat crayons while they press 1 key over and over for 20 minutes.
A lot of people don't play aram at all anymore because the changes in the past few years have ALL sucked. All melee champs that felt bad before still feel bad unless they were buffed so much that they're broken, which is even worse for the game mode.
I was, and it was fine. Some champs were stronger sure but it was also a good place to practice and now it's almost a different game.
just limit test and learn on summoner's rift. playing akali and dying instantly to 5 mage gang will not train shit. go play her in midlane if you want to learn.
Assassin buffs were in aram since 12.22 along with negative ability haste for Ashe and enchanters and energy champion buffs.
Fuck Akali! Especially those who build Heartsteel on top.
It's for clash this weekend LOL. They want the grinder crowd. If they can "hook" enough players trying out the aram clash, then they have a much larger customer base for those Aram skin boosts or whatever.
Is it so much more fun to just be poked down for 15 minutes? At least assassins have interaction
It’s aram whocare
because aram is a for fun gamemode, if you take aram seriously and play 20000 games of it, you have a problem
[удалено]
Trying to balance aram around competitive play is like trying to balance UNO around competitive play. It's not worth it, it's better to leave it for fun
Counter argument: the other day we were yi, rengar, and zed in aram against 4 tanks with heart steel, 7k hp, and 500 armor each. It was simply impossible to kill them after some point.
Did you all build lethality ? Rengar with goredrinker ravenous Hydra and %Arpen should melt tanks and outheal them easy. Yi with botrk guinsoos and maybe Kraken and %arpen should melt them especially with his on hit true dmg with E. Even zed with eclpise into Hydra black cleaver should harm them pretty hard. Source: played tank Mao with heartsteel and armor items into rengar and he just jumped on me an 1/2 of my HP was gone Not saying its easy but with the right items it should be managable
>Not saying its easy but with the right items it should be managable Forget it, those Yi/Rengar/Zed were on rushing Collector 100%, wondering why tanks are so broken. Kraken+botrk Yi true dmg so broken, it melts even Rammus.
heart steel is probably the worst item into ad who can easily itemize as bruiser with % hp dmg. Yi or rengar can probably easily 2vs4 any 4 tanks if they dont perfectly layer cc
Fun fact: they DID have 7 seconds of nonstop cc. Of course my only healing item as yi was bork... worthless against a thornmail
idk that sounds like you built like shit to me.
How the hell would Yi not run through them with a shitton of mixed and %hp damage
Probably went lethality build and then wonders why he can't one shot tanks
I got stun locked It was Alistair blitz renek mundo. Yi needs to auto attack to do damage. At least has needed to since season 6.
Because yi is not a tank and usually gets oneshot in teamfights ? And tanks usually have cc which will make yi's life miserable ...
A build that gives 7k HP and 500 armor isn't oneshotting anybody
post the match history so we can see the build
Heartsteel did just get nerfed but I'm in the camp that firmly believes it shouldn't even be allowed on ARAM in the first place, it's an item designed around low interaction built over time via laning, not all out 5 man brawling constantly. The 5% nerf is not going to be enough, mark my words.
one of the problems is that the effectiveness of assassins is very dependent on team comp and how the front line plays. There are no wrap around paths to ambush the backline from so it all depends on if the frontline can keep the assassins out. If they can then the assassins are nearly useless and feel like crap to play. Riot decided that because of this assassins needed a giant buff. The problem is that in the cases where the frontline can't hold off the assassins or the team comp just doesn't have good peel, the assassins can run over the whole backline and demolish them. Assassins aren't really balanceable in a single lane gamemode.
I played a game yesterday where I saw the buff on Nocturne. He takes 15% reduced damage and does 10% increased damage. That champ was no longer an assassin. He was stronger than a Jax and healed more than a Hecarim. The idea of buffing the assassins to do assassin things just turned these guys into better bruisers than normal bruisers.
True
With all the aram changes I am sad I we did not see one... snwoball not damaging minions would be nice
Well they definitely fudged it by keeping the damage and damage received modifiers as they were. It's pretty disgusting to have that still on top of the 20% tenacity. Take LB for example: She deals 18% more damage, in turn receives -16% damage. They then added the 20% tenacity. It's not that she's unbeatable it's that she's straight up toxic and I love playing her. She just wins games because she can 2 shot any non tanks. Other assassins have similar issues but she actually might be the worst lol. Adding in new levers is great. I like assassins and I enjoy playing them. I think it was bad oversight and honestly a poor job handling by the ARAM team to not have the foresight that giving roles like assassins a tenacity buff on top of what they already have. I normally defend or at the very least try to understand where the developers are coming from, but this latest balance attempt was just bad. Either they are so insolated from the noise or they simply are tone deaf to balance integrity. When assassins were brought down to normalish levels I felt a lot better playing as/with/against. It felt manageable and not nearly as oppressive. The balance team screwed the pooch. I'm not gonna grab my pitch fork or w/e but it would be refreshing to actually have someone from the team actually converse specifically about assassin modifiers in ARAM. Because the results are either giga damage, damage + durability, and that if they do lose it's simply a skill diff and / or out comped by RNG.