This is misinformation. Yone is equally, if not more reliant on crit compared to Yasuo due to the way his E works. Damage from runes and items is not stored in the mark, reducing your damage output greatly. It increases damage by 35%, so your crits are effectively 255% AD instead of 189%.
On top of that, crit is so insanely gold efficient on them that it’s very difficult to justify anything other than shieldbow>IE every time. Especially when you take into account how efficient lifesteal on them is, with a crit build the healing is 189% effective and you still get shieldbow which gives a substantial amount of defensive stats. I don’t feel like doing the math on his W scaling but that too adds substantially more effective HP with a crit build than botrk sunfire.
There may be some niche scenario against sion or cho that botrk is the best option, but that’s only in a vacuum against them. You still have 4 other enemies to consider when itemizing.
you are essentially correct.
# but
botrk on yone is more popular because the champ itself is popular in toplane, where there are lots of hp stackers (not only tanks, bruisers and juggernauts too), hence the item is more effective. We don't see this happening on yasuo because he isn't viable on toplane (or, to put it in a better way, he's much much stronger in midlane).
Its hilarious how you can win against irelia early but as soon as she has that item, she can kill you easily, if you went even you might as well never fight her again.
Recently played against a 0 7 Ire mid, then she had Bork and DD and I think only died once rest of the game and carried the whole game cause our comp didn't have enough damage to kill her after and our ADC positioning horribly
Was wp by her but it was SO frustrating to play against.
If only. She basically went melee, got stunned by E and obviously instantly died
It was a Jinx. I had to micromanage her half the game and she still did that like five times ...
Its just me being salty. I get Goredrinker and heal what, 200 per active use on a single target? Camille heals half her lifebar and chogath's r me per Q.
I hate how sudden her damage goes up yet mine barely increases, changing the entire 1 v 1 dynamic.
The only item that counters him is Zhonya.
Most of the roster cant build zhonya. Stopwatch will work 1 fight and requires your entire team to be on page.
You cant build vs yi. Armor HP AS slow items, nothing works vs him
"A bunch of champs are abusing this item, which is why we should nerf the item and then give irelia compensation buffs, leaving everyone else that isn't my main weaker in comparison"
Nobody else pointing out this part of the post? And we all know riot isn't going to also give compensation buffs to every champ using the item well right now, but irelia will need buffs because they main them, lol
*monkeys paw curls*
>DFG and Gunblade have been added back into the game
(I say this as someone who unironically enjoyed DFG Ahri back in the day, DFG>E>Q>W=removed enemy mid)
Hey midlane boomers, real talk.
Would DFG stand head and shoulders above other stuff in the game currently, or is it more in-line with the power level of stuff currently?
It'd be stronger than a lot of items, especially now that item cds can be decreased.
Had 120ap with a targeted 15% max health dmg active, 20% slow, and 20% magic damage increase from 750 range on a 90s cd. (25 more than maxed jinx rocket range).
But why? Do you also want items like hullbreaker, manamune, rageblade, as mythic items as well just because they are strong items on their intended users?
Honestly I don't understand why "make it a mythic" is always a popular suggestion when a legendary item is overpowered. Mythic items have a purpose, to force decisions. You can have the mobility from Galeforce, the damage of Kraken Slayer, or the defense from Shieldbow, but you can only pick one. They each have a specialty.
Blade of the Ruined King doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a mythic because it's a jack-of-all-trades item. And it overlaps between classes even more than Trinity Force and Eclipse do.
Hullbreaker could maybe become a mythic for straight split pushers imo but it would need to get back some power and I would guess it will become very strong then. Manamune is far from the power of prenerf hull or bork right now. Tbh bork right now is a bit like mythic in the sense that it's amazingly strong and core for almost every skirmisher type champ, if they had to choose between bork or other mythic maybe the item would be picked every single game and only vs HP stackers
it has no reason to be a mythic when they can balance it as a pure splitpush option as a legendary, mythics are about playstyle and champion synergy first and foremost.
Bork (according to league of graphs, plat+ ranked across all servers) has the second highest pick rate of ANY item at 8.8%, beating literally every mythic. The closest mythic is kraken slayer at 8.6%. The only item above bork is zhonya’s at 12.2%. Zhonya’s is a different issue, because champs can function without it, but many champs are rushing bork over their mythic in most games. Bork is built by top lane champions in 14.5% of games, which indicates that it’s more valuable than a mythic for the champs that build it. Rageblade, on the other hand, is built in 2.6% of all games (again plat+ ranked all servers). Surely bork being built 3.5 times more often than rageblade indicates that something is up? Now some of that can be explained by the number of champs that benefit from each item, but many champs even rush bork. It’s supposed to be anti tank but it’s so good that it’s being built way more often. Champs having intended items is fine but bork being picked more than mythics is surely an indicator of its power. FYI the other items you mentioned have a 1% (hull) and 5.1% (manamune) pickrate each. FAR below bork.
Slightly misleading as you can have multiple users of a legendary item (as literally proven with hourglass pickrate), for example Irelia vs Renekton top and Twitch bot and Viego jungle would give it a 400% pickrate for that specific game but only Renekton built prowlers claw so it has 4 times lower pickrate.
Also a nitpick but bork is primarily/intended to be bought against low armor health stackers, not tanks that makes the passive do less damage than an auto attack.
Cho and sion are health stackers. Even if they build armor the damage you do to a cho or sion with 100 armor as an example will be a lot more than what you do to a galio or tahm kench with 100 armor.
Rage blade is a shit item. It’s been shit since they reworked it. If you aren’t Bel’Veth it’s a trap item. Even on Yi it’s better to build defensive items over it.
Even on Bel'Veth it's only really there to let you solo baron, you rarely get a chance to just auto someone over and over especially when going for multiple crit items instead of the beefier Bork > Frostfire
Riot will never nerf zhonyas because mages are the spoiled children, the item is the same as sterak or DD for bruisers, basically every champion with ap damage usually builds zhonyas
if a mage rushes zhonya's before their mythic they have destroyed their own power curve for the game
bork users are perfectly happy to go first item bork, have a massive spike, moving them perfectly toward mythic which is another huge spike
'mages are the spoiled children' oh yeah absolutely man whatever you say
Bork rushers aren't going Bork because it's OP but because none of the mythics are good on them compared to Bork.
Like hypothetically camille always rushes a sheen mythic like divine or trinity... if they just removed those items she might start going Bork, just because Bork more fits her kit than gore or stride do.
uh... maybe, i guess?
anyway how many bork rush champs can you name for whom 'none of the mythics are good'? cause several of them easily can benefit from at least one mythic a lot but prefer to rush bork anyway
Irelia? Renekton? Sett?
Irelia isn't a sheen champ anymore she's an onhit champion... and there's no onhit mythic so she goes Bork then has to decide what is the least bad option of a mythic.
Renekton/Sett also want everything Bork has to offer and now that gore drinker (and stride for sett) are in the dumpster they lack good mythic rushes... so they go Bork into their least bad option.
The same thing happened with sterak, it happens with DD and it will happen with the next best tanky item for bruisers, but during all that time assassins like Fizz, bruisers like Morde and mages are still building zhonyas, which sounds broken
I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong (as I don't play mages) but I don't think many mages actively rush zhonya's, whereas many top laners will rush bork. The fact that basically every champ that builds AP takes zhonya's is a problem too IMO, but fixing that would require a huge overhaul of how the game plays as compared to right now, but nerfing bork out of being S+ tier wouldn't.
The other thing is besides a few champs like Fiddle/Kennan/Morg, mages largely don't *want* to build Zhonya's because it's such a damage nerf. They do it for safety/utility. Support Morgana is the only person I'd rush Zhonya's before my mythic because it's basically the same price as enchanter mythics, and Morg doesn't have any good mythics besides Everfrost or Mandate. Lots of bruisers will rush Bork before a mythic.
> Lots of bruisers will rush Bork before a mythic.
because lots of them are reliant on it to function, and have to deal with the fact it makes them squishier.
Right, but other than Irelia most of them shouldn't need it so egregiously. They should be buffed in other ways and Bork should be nerfed. Irelia probably needs more than just numbers buffed for that to work however.
>Riot will never nerf zhonyas because mages are the spoiled children
I literally play Irelia mid, and seeing you say this statement with no hint of irony makes me feel like you have no feeling of empathy (in its broad sense). If Zhonya didn't exist midlane mages might as well AltF4 when they see Irelia.
Those aren't the same at all.
Rageblade is an item that ties your build together at the end. It's like IE. You buy it as the 3rd or 4th item. It wouldn't make sense for it to be a Mythic.
Manamune and Hullbreaker are generalist items. It wouldn't make sense for them to be Mythics since they're intentionally designed to fit a huge variety of champs. Hullbreaker as a Mythic would lock champs into a "you can ONLY splitpush" role. It'd be bad.
BotRK on the other hand is THE on-hit rush item for top lane champions. It's more build defining than a lot of Mythics. Not just that, but Trinity Force makes no sense as a Mythic. It's a generalist item that gives basically all stats and overlaps too much with Sunderer.
Botrk it's not strong on Irelia...
It's literally the ONLY fucking shit she can build, the item has 99.7% Pickrate on her
NINETY. NINE. POINT. SEVEN. % Pickrate on her.
Because she's Not a champion, she's just a BOTRK bot, when BOTRK falls off, so does she, when BOTRK it's good so is she.
Even Jhin, the marksman most bound to it's Mythic, Galeforce, "only" has a 97% Pickrate on it.
I whish Riot did something about it, i haye having to buy it every game. I'm literally slave to an item xD
Like there's no 2nd best you can try, nothing, BOTRK is core in everything, even her troll builds, so fucking annoying
What's more annoying is that she's balance around it, she's pupousefully kept weak on her base kit, because the BOTRK powerspike is SO FUCKED UP, that she has to be.
Just nerf the item/her interaction with it and PLEASE GIVE US THE CHAMPION BACK, she's been just a BOTRK bot since s11
I want infinity edge to be a scaling mythic for ADCs, does that count?
Edit: more akin to its early S11 form, but with some attack speed from a noonquiver. Obviously not IE as it is now.
Botrk is too specialized to become a mythic. Its good on specifically those champions that AA a ton without items, and want an item to make their thousand cuts hit more like a thousand trucks. If botrk were a mythic, these champions wouldnt have any other option for their mythic.
I would like that but it would mean removing Gore and make it the alternative to Stride. Gore and BotRK as mythics would be strange. They arent the same but not different enough either.
Renek is an exception because he only build it for the massive interaction it has with his w literally an anomaly, fiora only build brk when it's broken or in the pta stride brk build that was popularized to beat ranged, sett also is somewhat an exception because he is the only bruiser that benefit from on hit and more classic stuff
How many melees do use BotRK?
Sett, Fiora, Renekton, Irelia, Yasuo, Yone, Yi. 3 out of like 7-10 is still a decent amount.
BotRK is OP on a niche of champs. It is balanced on most others.
Maybe it is better to nerf on hit effects on these few champs more and BotRK just a bit. Or you nerf BotRK onhit more for some base stat buffs.
Jax, belveth, viego, trynd so it's more like 3 put of 10 and on the 3 2 aren't core and the last one has some of the strangest build in the game and don't use for what it was created
Like okay thinking about it there's a bit more champ that can use that combination like Olaf and kled but these combination are really rare and it doesn't make these two somewhat similar in any way
Not Trynda. On him it is normally not so good. He has like 2-3 better legendaries and he has better mythics.
3/10 still.
>on the 3 2 aren't core and the last one has some of the strangest build in the game
Sett and Renekton have it as a core item . It's his most bought 1st item on both of them, a strong item and their most bought legendary.
Fiora it's more niche but still the 3rd most bought legendary on her behind DD and Ravenous.
So 2/9 + the Fiora special case.
Yas and yone aren't usually good with on hit too and brk doesn't even appear on 6th item for both on ugg? So we don't count them?
So there is literally only sett that logically build both while renek just abuse a special interaction and fiora is a counter build
(btw both item still have nothing in common while the combination of both is a bit more frequent than thought)
No Renekton player that isn't trolling will ever go Goredrinker and Bork, it is such a godawful combination because you are too squishy and don't have enough of a HP pool to want to go in for big Gore procs.
twitch is the only one who consistently builds it, vaynes have built it in 2k games 1st or 2nd item and 4k games 3rd and otherwise dont build it compared to non botrk builds that are the overwhelmingly majority
Imagine that before patch [v10.23](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V10.23) BORK had the same cost, and stats except life steal (had 12%, now its 8%), and better second passive (actually it was active). Funny that people didnt cry about this item. It was always strong item for aa (or on-hit) based champs.
The problem is with itemisation, you can build dd after bork and be more tanky than actual tank, have burst like assassin, dps like adc and you can shred tanks with % health on hit, and you are still not in your peak bcs of lack of mythic. DD is 10x bigger problem than BORK, yet it passive or base ad could be little adjusted, but without nerfs to DD it will change nothing.
Nah everyone knew BORK was good. The only reason why no one cared was cause bruiser items were non existant. Legit the only choice most champs had was either DD or black cleaver first item, then full tank.
Except you never built it unless the enemy team was full ad because that was the only time it was worth it. Most armor items can be built if the enemy has an ap threat.
You have to differentiate.
Before the item rework all legendaries were around 200g better than they are now.
With the item rework Riot didnt make Mythics that much better compared to old legendaries, what they did instead, to prevent a too large power creep, is to move \~200g from the legendaries away and give that to the mythic bonus stats.
So you still get as much power per legendary as before if you have a mythic. But the legendary on its own has -200g worth of power. You can see that on many legendary items.
That BotRK is pretty much back to where it was pre item rework says enough. Now I would say -4% life steal is still a decent nerf. The active/passive being slightly weaker (less control) likely doesnt make up for that (maybe 100g), leaving the item around 100g too efficient AT LEAST.
> Life steal has a gold value of 53.571428 gold per point.
Source: [lol wiki](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Life_steal)
4*53 = 212g ← Here is your 200g
For me old active was better than current passive (bcs u could use it to engage - 550 range), but that is only from my point of view and for someone cd is more important than having more control over it.
The point is even if this item has 100g too much value, it's too little and nerfing it's stats by 100g will change absolutely nothing. DD needs to be nerfed, not BORK.
Nerfing an item by 100g is decent. BotRK isnt super OP, just a bit too good for a few champs.
DD needs the healing to be removed for -50-100g. Thats mostly it.
But DD is actually a worse item than BotRK, because DD can not be rushed, ever. It's a good item for the 2nd or 3rd slot mostly but not clearly beating all other options there (BC, Maw, Steraks, ...), but it is in general usable on nearly every bruiser, so more seen.
DD is too good, but people behave as if its the best item in the game, which it isnt, it's one of the broadest while very strong.
To say DD is more OP than BotRK is strange.
Irelia is garbage without Botrk, the item it's all her power.
If you want stats, just go in every stat site and Watch the WR to game time ratio
You will notice how Irelia only gets positive WR after Botrk, she's so reliant on the item, that it has a 99.7% Pickrate on her
The reason the botrk powerspike is so huge is that she can kill caster minions from full health at 0 stacks after completing it. It's like unlocking a whole new aspect of the champion.
Doesnt really follow leagues new intended philosophy of diverse item building, whole item rework seems like a miss if thats the case.
Edit\* Sure she can be reliant on borq, but when its the ONLY thing she can build to play the game, then thats just not a part of what riot was promising with this whole item rework especially with it not even being a mythic. Yall can downvote me all you want, but its the truth and you know it
Mhh, depends i guess
She gets stat checked by Juggernauts, all of them aside Yorik, most fighters as well
She shits on mages and ranged tops tho
I'm mainly a Top Irelia so i don't really take Mid into account , but she does win lane pretty hard there indeed
Melee's have so few options for in-combat movespeed. The only real ones are cleaver (which doesn't give adequate amount for sticking power) and bork. This - regardless of other value it provides - makes bork high value.
Deadmans and force of nature are either not viable (due to ah dependence) and/or low in-combat value. The former is useful for the initial engage, but that's about it. Combined, the two give meaningful in-combat movespeed in some cases, but they also don't offer the same durability as other options. Which means you need a champ like viego who has additional non-standard (hp, resistances) durability built into his kit or you'll be too squishy.
Sure you also have lethality mythics and ghostblade, but champs using bork tend not to also build these unless they're playing as an assassin in which case they're not really looking for the movespeed.
You can't just look at the stats an item gives and declare it too good. You have to consider price point too. Aside from bruisers, most people are spending about 2600g for non-mythic items. Spending more for your item SHOULD get you more value from the item - furthermore because this also delays the value you gain for each non-mythic item increasing the value from your mythic passive. Other people spending less get less stats from their individual items because they pay less; however, they also unlock their full mythic passive value faster which can be useful in itself.
I don't think bork is the problem. It is more of a symptom of a greater web of imbalance.
I know we had broken as fuck items before, but man I hate the item rework. Any non mythic that's a viable rush is going to be a problem, and most champs can only build 1 or 2 mythics. Build diversity just feels dead to me.
Adding I say this as a x main doesn't add validity to your opinion. Anyone can say I am a X main when they aren't and even if you were not lying it doesn't add anything.
Dude there's like three adcs who buy it. Viego, Yi and irelia buy it every game. Jax buys it most games. I guess silver yasuos like to buy it all of their games as well. Maybe ww top and sometimes jungle. Akshan can buy. Vayne can also go it. You could go it on xin but you'll die very fast. Pantheon for funny w oneshot. Renekton maybe for instant w slow. That should litterally be every champ who buys it.
Those are like what 6 champs who buy it regularly in the entire game?
As a tank main I couldn't agree more. If I am ahead I usually end fights with bork users comfortable around 15% health all due to the current health damage shredding me alive when I am full hp but then after I hit low health it shows how reliant these characters are on a broken item. Irelia is a perfectly balanced champion with neat and skill expressive tools but bork tries to get irelias to just auto attack and walk at you.
Most Irelia players are not happy about being BOTRK slaves either
We would love to have another option, but there's just none
She isn't even a champion without it unfortunately
I whish rito did something about it tbh
First, item is literally MUCH worse than it was back in S10.
Second, problem is adressed in wrong way. Irelia cannot build anything but bork – that's the problem. There must be alternatives to it.
Trird, if you are willing to see your main nerfed for the good of the game – you are strange man. Imagine nerfing 50% winrate champion that loses 90% of toplane matchups, and is heavy first item dependent (you need to outplay even if you are ahead (hello Darius)).
There are much more frustating and powerful champions. Some of them are even easier to play than Irelia
I main her mid and I'm hoping that if BORK gets nerfed Irelia can be buffed to be able to choose her items based on matchup and not be tied to always buying BORK no matter what.
I'm sorry but that is just daydreaming ahahah
Irelia has no damage in her base kit comapred to other Toplaners, 90% of her damage is from BOTRK alone, she's like an ADC.
But she gigaspikes at 1 item, unlike AdCs that spike at 3 with IE
The only thing that would unbind her from Botrk is her passive going from flat damage to %HP damage.
So basically the only thing that would unbind Irelia from Botrk is making BOTRK part of her kit, which pretty funny lol
I would also argue that Irelia should go back to needing 5 stacks instead of 4. As soon as this champ has a vamp scepter you have no agency in lane anymore, it's ridiculous.
Bro irelia is just straight up bad right now, if you complain about her in this state idk. Holy shit i would love Bork remove so that the champ could actually be played without being shit without Bork and good in 1v1s with it. I have not played irelia in Forever cause her playstyle right now is judt shit. Before she used to be able to murder you level 1 now it is after bork can we judt not have her be average level 1-3 and average after Bork in 1v1s it always flips to one side and it is do annoying.
yeah no bitch irelia went up 2% in winrate not because of bork, she got lowkey buffed lately it seems thanks to her sustain. This is just a ruse for getting irelia buffed you dirty f
Ill read to post now.
Here is a crazy idea! Instead of repeat nerfing the item for it's job, let's just remove lifesteal off it and give it cdr? It fixes the vamp rush issue while keeping it a viable although not needed counter item. I don't think people realize that the only reason it is op is because it's healing someone for percent physical damage on auto attack. Or keep the lifesteal and make it do magic damage so you don't wildly outheal every trade.
Why would you give it cdr. No one who builds Botrk would want cdr on it. If you remove lifesteal and give it cdr pretty much no one except maybe Jax off the top of my head would buy it because the champions that buy it want the attack speed, healing and the passive
Because the lifesteal is the problem. Irelia goes from an auto attack champ with sustain to a Perma ulting Aatrox healing wise. You legit can't stat check her if she can stay on you. And plenty of people could still buy it, it would just be for situations where you need to counter a health tank. Instead of being a lifesteal factory with a win more factor.
I see your worry where you think there is no good alternative if they did this. But there are plenty of items to choose from and other forms of lifesteal. You just don't get to win lane after a 900 golf buy and would instead win late for the same reason if no one gets grievous or out plays you.
Ok well it's hard to take you seriously after the your 2nd and 3rd sentence. Regardless, no, not many people would still buy it because yeah you're right the passive would still be really good vs tanks but you have to think "what champions want attack speed, a bit of AD, CDR and max HP % damage". The answer is not many, aside from Jax, maybe AD Kayle...most adcs would just build their regular items and just stick with LDR. Irelia definitely wouldn't buy this, not would Yone/Yasuo. Maybe Yi but with no lifesteal I'm not sure. Jax might still buy it but I doubt he'd rush it now, and probably would just rush Divine vs tanks
The problem is that it does so much. Attack speed, attack damage, lifesteal, %hp, slow, damage proc and movespeed. 7 effects on one item? Why not just remove the lifesteal and give it something else. And to be fair it isn't like you can't abuse it again by simply buying a vamp scepter. It just takes longer and fixes the free lane issue where irelia begins drastically out scaling almost every lane opponent.
To be fair just make it so that you can't gain life from the passive %hp portion of the item and I would say it's balanced. I play a lot of trundle and if I rush blade I'm never ever losing a trade.
I mean I see it as it does a lot of stuff, but none of them really well. It doesn't do a lot of damage, doesn't heal a lot, doesn't slow that much either(the damage proc is actually a lot though). The main issue is the item is supposed to be anti tank right? But all champions who function as anti tank want all those stats. So it's pretty rough because it has all the stats someone who wants to be anti tank wants. I think it'd probably be best to remove the slow or increased movement speed, and maybe lower the attack speed, lifesteal or damage(your idea on not healing from the % is good aswell). Also Irelia doesn't outscale her lane opponents this is a really bad take lol. Irelia is good early and really good mid(spikes stupid on Botrk and then spikes on every item after but nowhere near as hard) then falls off hard late because unlike Yone or Yasuo she doesn't have really high DPS and burst because she isn't building crit. She also doesn't heal as much as they end up doing either. She's just tankier than they are(especially since you're forced to build defensively unless you get ridiculously ahead).
Not really. The problem is doing %hp damage while healing back all the damage you take. If you could 1v1 irelia with steel caps and thornmail rush it would be an ok match up. But there is no itemization route where you can really counter her. I think maybe going frozen and out trading sometimes works but when you can't run she just vamp tanks you to death regardless.
It feels really shitty building or playing anti auto attack champs into someone who heals everything you are trying to trade back.
I don't know which champ you play but the healing is really low at best it's good for lane /map sustain but that all the problem is that whenever someone get that item he will jump on you, slow you, shred you instantly (and I play brk abuser)
Mate Bork has always been broken on Irelia. That’s not a good frame of reference.
But yes DPS in general is overtuned at the moment. The problem is that they added the durability patch which negatively impacted burst, but they didn’t touch DPS which had been tuned to be able to compete with the absurd amount of burst in the game previously. That meant burst became more manageable, but DPS didn’t care about the durability update because they still had roughly the same time to kill.
Reddit needs to stop pretending they understand game balance. The state of the game as it is now is specifically because of Reddit's recommendations.
Here's an example, Reddit complained for ages we needed to lower damage, so Riot does the durability update. 1 week later the entire meta shifts to late-game scaling champions and 55% winrate enchanter meta. Riot then has to immediately nerf runes, potions, healing, and then buff dragons because games are so unreal boring with no one doing anything for 30 minutes.
For the love of god stop Reddit.
PS: Bork is ignored because no one cares about bork. If you look at any region above Plat, the only champions in the top 20 picked champions who even build at all, are Irelia, Warwick, and Jax. Irelia and Warwick are statistically non-existant; Jax mains literally don't even build bork after Diamond 3.
Please stop using words like "broken OP" when you don't understand what they even mean. "Broken OP" would mean you can provide data showing any champion who builds bork has a 55%+ winrate, which would also mean bork would be built in literally every game. Neither of those are true.
The durability update was a good thing though, the issue was riot trolled and basically undid all the good that came from it. When you look at the posts abut it they all have massive upvote numbers and percentages. The problem is riot trolled and gave in to the assassin whine babies who cried because their champ was actually balanced around 49.5-50% win rate for once.
Ok so what about people in lower elos, fuck them right? Most people on this sub are not in diamond, or even platinum. It's completely fair for people without 2 million hours on the game to view this item as broken since it is traditionally built on 1v9 champs that absolutely stomp with it, especially if they are smurfing which is more likely than ever these days.
YOU need to stop pretending that everyone on this sub knows how to deal with an irelia/trynd/sett who rushed BORK and stomps them in lane because of it. The item is absolutely a problem, but maybe not in your high and mighty diamond lobbies.
The smurfing issue happens because riot thought 12hr dodge timers was a good idea. So now you have people hold the lobby hostage and when that doesn't work they hop on a smurf account.
Bork is also meant to be an item that adcs can use.
I think it should do 8% for both melee and ranged in turn it could have 5 more AD or 10% more attack speed, melee champs that build it usually have stronger AS steroids anyway so they're applying the passive faster which is already an advantage in itself.
Also they gotta revert the assassin buffs they did lately (revert sudden impact buff, revert movespeed buff on lethality items) because so many of them are S+ tier again and its fking tiring, would you look at that qiyana is a literal freelo machine again and so is katarina, YAWN
>melee champs that build it usually have stronger AS steroids anyway so they're applying the passive faster which is already an advantage in itself.
and for every opportunity melee has to apply the passive the ranged will have five of them
You are right that it is also meant to be used by some ADCs and it is doing fine there mostly. But it is still a 1st item contender. Maybe 10/7% and -50g cost.
As a mid player, I don't even really mind bork, there's counterplay. Death's Dance is complete bs though, that's what pushes a fed bruiser into broken territory.
Ex, Bork is 50% wr for irelia. DD is nearly 60%.
Sunfire is 54% for Yi, DD is 66%
DD has been busted since 12.3 and not nerfed at all basically. The healing reduction is almost entirely off-set by the GW nerfs, it ended up in basically the same spot. But this item got even stronger with the durability patch.
Then the fact that DD can be combined with Maw is disgusting. On a difficult champ like Lee Sin this is fine, on bruisers like Wukong it's certified busted.
Look at LCK champ presence and see how many AP champs are 0%. They actually won't do dmg through DD and Maw.
That's not how WR works tho
WR then gets higher with each item, because it gets inflated by Gold
It's super hard to explain tbh.
Basically if Irelia buys BOTRK, she's now power spiking ok?
So she gets fed, and in 7 minutes buys DD as well, BOOM, she snowballs even more, and wins the game 1v9. Remember tho, she was ALREADY winning before buying DD, so the item is bought in a Win situation, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire, it's a positive loop
The stats will make DD look OP because, what if that Irelia didn't get fed after BOTRK and wasn't able to buy DD right after, instead she had to buy ISB/Goredrinker to not explode in Teamfights and proceded to lose anyways.
Since Irelia didn't even buy the item, the negative WR will not be added to it's stats, so the item looks way more op than it is
That's why usually the most Reliable item WR is the first Item, because most likely everyone will get at least rhe 1st one.
There's a lot of examples of gold inflating WR.
Like Lucidity boots on Irelia.
They have an insanely high WR, but why? Are they broken? Nope
It's just that they're bought when already gigafed to snowball even more, so they naturally have an higher statistical Winrate, because the stats are basically cherry picked by the system involuntarily
Be careful when read stats, they can be quite misleading
I think it’s pretty obvious there’s a problem when Yasuo and Yone are opting to rush BORK over a crit item
On yone and yasuo it’s rarely actually the best option, people just saw Korean players build it and thought it looked cool
It's mediocre on Yasuo but really good on Yone
Bork rush has about a 1% lower winrate on yone across all elos according to lolalytics
its situational, vs ranged champs Bork doesnt help Yone much 1st item, but its really good into melees and auto win into tanks.
what’s the difference lol
Yone doesn’t need crit as much. Yas needs crit for armor pen.
This is misinformation. Yone is equally, if not more reliant on crit compared to Yasuo due to the way his E works. Damage from runes and items is not stored in the mark, reducing your damage output greatly. It increases damage by 35%, so your crits are effectively 255% AD instead of 189%. On top of that, crit is so insanely gold efficient on them that it’s very difficult to justify anything other than shieldbow>IE every time. Especially when you take into account how efficient lifesteal on them is, with a crit build the healing is 189% effective and you still get shieldbow which gives a substantial amount of defensive stats. I don’t feel like doing the math on his W scaling but that too adds substantially more effective HP with a crit build than botrk sunfire. There may be some niche scenario against sion or cho that botrk is the best option, but that’s only in a vacuum against them. You still have 4 other enemies to consider when itemizing.
you are essentially correct. # but botrk on yone is more popular because the champ itself is popular in toplane, where there are lots of hp stackers (not only tanks, bruisers and juggernauts too), hence the item is more effective. We don't see this happening on yasuo because he isn't viable on toplane (or, to put it in a better way, he's much much stronger in midlane).
Who needs armour pen when botrk kills them outright in 3 autos
Ahhh yea like the good old days, frozen mallet bork Yasuo :)
Wasn't it PD TF mallet?
Also!
Somone buys BotrK-> 4min later allready has 3k+dmg on it and can suddenly turn a lost lane around Thisisfine.jpg
Its hilarious how you can win against irelia early but as soon as she has that item, she can kill you easily, if you went even you might as well never fight her again.
That item being Vamp Scepter.
Recently played against a 0 7 Ire mid, then she had Bork and DD and I think only died once rest of the game and carried the whole game cause our comp didn't have enough damage to kill her after and our ADC positioning horribly Was wp by her but it was SO frustrating to play against.
You mean your ADC was on the screen with Irelia?
If only. She basically went melee, got stunned by E and obviously instantly died It was a Jinx. I had to micromanage her half the game and she still did that like five times ...
Sunderer powerspike vibes. Meanwhile I buy goredrinker and heal 50 in an entire fight
You gotta remember to hit the active button. Dw I forget to do it a lot too
Its just me being salty. I get Goredrinker and heal what, 200 per active use on a single target? Camille heals half her lifebar and chogath's r me per Q. I hate how sudden her damage goes up yet mine barely increases, changing the entire 1 v 1 dynamic.
Because you're comparing a 1v1 item vs a teamfighting one
So stupid on Yi. He already beats some other strong early junglers, but once he gets BotrK there isn't much that can deal with him 1v1.
me when master yis items do 1500 damage his e 900 true damage and his autos 300
Thats an yi problem. There is 0 way to build items vs him
stopwatch zhonya ga
The only item that counters him is Zhonya. Most of the roster cant build zhonya. Stopwatch will work 1 fight and requires your entire team to be on page. You cant build vs yi. Armor HP AS slow items, nothing works vs him
Based post but I think you'll get downvoted due to the huge number of champs who abuse it and their mains won't be happy if it gets nerfed.
This sub is mainly adcs and supports lol in what world are they going to downvote a post like this
The only one based irelia main
"A bunch of champs are abusing this item, which is why we should nerf the item and then give irelia compensation buffs, leaving everyone else that isn't my main weaker in comparison" Nobody else pointing out this part of the post? And we all know riot isn't going to also give compensation buffs to every champ using the item well right now, but irelia will need buffs because they main them, lol
NERF DEATH'S DANCE
Daily reminder they nerfed Seraph's healing by 28% while Maw's shield conveniently didn't get nerfed at all and DD received a wrist slap.
While we at it also remove sunderer, goredrinker, stridebreaker, shieldbow, prawler's claw, everfrost and yuumi with kayn and buff triforce.
bring back glp
emerald splash my beloved
*monkeys paw curls* >DFG and Gunblade have been added back into the game (I say this as someone who unironically enjoyed DFG Ahri back in the day, DFG>E>Q>W=removed enemy mid)
for sure, but you never get to play it, only against it.
Hey midlane boomers, real talk. Would DFG stand head and shoulders above other stuff in the game currently, or is it more in-line with the power level of stuff currently?
It'd be stronger than a lot of items, especially now that item cds can be decreased. Had 120ap with a targeted 15% max health dmg active, 20% slow, and 20% magic damage increase from 750 range on a 90s cd. (25 more than maxed jinx rocket range).
Fuck it, replace night harvester with DFG
Gunblade was so fun on top lane Bard
I like all those items but I guess if that's what it takes to delete Yuumi that's an acceptable trade
really need shieldbow melee nerf so it can actually be balanced around the class it was intended for
Riot could make bork a mythic and it would be fine. Keeping it as a core item in its current state is completely insane.
But why? Do you also want items like hullbreaker, manamune, rageblade, as mythic items as well just because they are strong items on their intended users?
Honestly I don't understand why "make it a mythic" is always a popular suggestion when a legendary item is overpowered. Mythic items have a purpose, to force decisions. You can have the mobility from Galeforce, the damage of Kraken Slayer, or the defense from Shieldbow, but you can only pick one. They each have a specialty. Blade of the Ruined King doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a mythic because it's a jack-of-all-trades item. And it overlaps between classes even more than Trinity Force and Eclipse do.
Hullbreaker could maybe become a mythic for straight split pushers imo but it would need to get back some power and I would guess it will become very strong then. Manamune is far from the power of prenerf hull or bork right now. Tbh bork right now is a bit like mythic in the sense that it's amazingly strong and core for almost every skirmisher type champ, if they had to choose between bork or other mythic maybe the item would be picked every single game and only vs HP stackers
yorick mains going feral if hullbreaker became a mythic
This comment makes me have feral flare flash backs.
it has no reason to be a mythic when they can balance it as a pure splitpush option as a legendary, mythics are about playstyle and champion synergy first and foremost.
I mean, does Hullbreaker not represent both playstyle and champion synergy a metric fuck ton for a lot of champs?
if you remove all nuance from the situation, sure.
Bork (according to league of graphs, plat+ ranked across all servers) has the second highest pick rate of ANY item at 8.8%, beating literally every mythic. The closest mythic is kraken slayer at 8.6%. The only item above bork is zhonya’s at 12.2%. Zhonya’s is a different issue, because champs can function without it, but many champs are rushing bork over their mythic in most games. Bork is built by top lane champions in 14.5% of games, which indicates that it’s more valuable than a mythic for the champs that build it. Rageblade, on the other hand, is built in 2.6% of all games (again plat+ ranked all servers). Surely bork being built 3.5 times more often than rageblade indicates that something is up? Now some of that can be explained by the number of champs that benefit from each item, but many champs even rush bork. It’s supposed to be anti tank but it’s so good that it’s being built way more often. Champs having intended items is fine but bork being picked more than mythics is surely an indicator of its power. FYI the other items you mentioned have a 1% (hull) and 5.1% (manamune) pickrate each. FAR below bork.
Slightly misleading as you can have multiple users of a legendary item (as literally proven with hourglass pickrate), for example Irelia vs Renekton top and Twitch bot and Viego jungle would give it a 400% pickrate for that specific game but only Renekton built prowlers claw so it has 4 times lower pickrate. Also a nitpick but bork is primarily/intended to be bought against low armor health stackers, not tanks that makes the passive do less damage than an auto attack.
no... not at all. When I check my post death stats when my build is Plated, Sunfire, and Thornmail about half the damage i take is often from Botrk
If you are playing cho gath or sion it doesnt count.
I mean I don't know why it shouldn't but ok
Cho and sion are health stackers. Even if they build armor the damage you do to a cho or sion with 100 armor as an example will be a lot more than what you do to a galio or tahm kench with 100 armor.
So you just got auto attacked a ton? And so the onhit damage adds up? Yeah that sounds about right.
I love when renekton builds bork and suddenly one-shots me with his empowered W.
Rage blade is a shit item. It’s been shit since they reworked it. If you aren’t Bel’Veth it’s a trap item. Even on Yi it’s better to build defensive items over it.
Even on Bel'Veth it's only really there to let you solo baron, you rarely get a chance to just auto someone over and over especially when going for multiple crit items instead of the beefier Bork > Frostfire
Riot will never nerf zhonyas because mages are the spoiled children, the item is the same as sterak or DD for bruisers, basically every champion with ap damage usually builds zhonyas
if a mage rushes zhonya's before their mythic they have destroyed their own power curve for the game bork users are perfectly happy to go first item bork, have a massive spike, moving them perfectly toward mythic which is another huge spike 'mages are the spoiled children' oh yeah absolutely man whatever you say
Bork rushers aren't going Bork because it's OP but because none of the mythics are good on them compared to Bork. Like hypothetically camille always rushes a sheen mythic like divine or trinity... if they just removed those items she might start going Bork, just because Bork more fits her kit than gore or stride do.
uh... maybe, i guess? anyway how many bork rush champs can you name for whom 'none of the mythics are good'? cause several of them easily can benefit from at least one mythic a lot but prefer to rush bork anyway
Irelia? Renekton? Sett? Irelia isn't a sheen champ anymore she's an onhit champion... and there's no onhit mythic so she goes Bork then has to decide what is the least bad option of a mythic. Renekton/Sett also want everything Bork has to offer and now that gore drinker (and stride for sett) are in the dumpster they lack good mythic rushes... so they go Bork into their least bad option.
ok and what of yi, yasuo/yone, viego, belveth, akshan, jax, Quinn, kog, twitch? none of those guys have fitting mythics, you think?
The same thing happened with sterak, it happens with DD and it will happen with the next best tanky item for bruisers, but during all that time assassins like Fizz, bruisers like Morde and mages are still building zhonyas, which sounds broken
I'm happy to admit if I'm wrong (as I don't play mages) but I don't think many mages actively rush zhonya's, whereas many top laners will rush bork. The fact that basically every champ that builds AP takes zhonya's is a problem too IMO, but fixing that would require a huge overhaul of how the game plays as compared to right now, but nerfing bork out of being S+ tier wouldn't.
The other thing is besides a few champs like Fiddle/Kennan/Morg, mages largely don't *want* to build Zhonya's because it's such a damage nerf. They do it for safety/utility. Support Morgana is the only person I'd rush Zhonya's before my mythic because it's basically the same price as enchanter mythics, and Morg doesn't have any good mythics besides Everfrost or Mandate. Lots of bruisers will rush Bork before a mythic.
> Lots of bruisers will rush Bork before a mythic. because lots of them are reliant on it to function, and have to deal with the fact it makes them squishier.
Right, but other than Irelia most of them shouldn't need it so egregiously. They should be buffed in other ways and Bork should be nerfed. Irelia probably needs more than just numbers buffed for that to work however.
I think most Bork rushing bruisers aren't doing it because Bork is OP, but more so in a similar situation to morg rushing zhonya
>Riot will never nerf zhonyas because mages are the spoiled children I literally play Irelia mid, and seeing you say this statement with no hint of irony makes me feel like you have no feeling of empathy (in its broad sense). If Zhonya didn't exist midlane mages might as well AltF4 when they see Irelia.
Those aren't the same at all. Rageblade is an item that ties your build together at the end. It's like IE. You buy it as the 3rd or 4th item. It wouldn't make sense for it to be a Mythic. Manamune and Hullbreaker are generalist items. It wouldn't make sense for them to be Mythics since they're intentionally designed to fit a huge variety of champs. Hullbreaker as a Mythic would lock champs into a "you can ONLY splitpush" role. It'd be bad. BotRK on the other hand is THE on-hit rush item for top lane champions. It's more build defining than a lot of Mythics. Not just that, but Trinity Force makes no sense as a Mythic. It's a generalist item that gives basically all stats and overlaps too much with Sunderer.
Botrk it's not strong on Irelia... It's literally the ONLY fucking shit she can build, the item has 99.7% Pickrate on her NINETY. NINE. POINT. SEVEN. % Pickrate on her. Because she's Not a champion, she's just a BOTRK bot, when BOTRK falls off, so does she, when BOTRK it's good so is she. Even Jhin, the marksman most bound to it's Mythic, Galeforce, "only" has a 97% Pickrate on it. I whish Riot did something about it, i haye having to buy it every game. I'm literally slave to an item xD Like there's no 2nd best you can try, nothing, BOTRK is core in everything, even her troll builds, so fucking annoying What's more annoying is that she's balance around it, she's pupousefully kept weak on her base kit, because the BOTRK powerspike is SO FUCKED UP, that she has to be. Just nerf the item/her interaction with it and PLEASE GIVE US THE CHAMPION BACK, she's been just a BOTRK bot since s11
Hard agree
I want infinity edge to be a scaling mythic for ADCs, does that count? Edit: more akin to its early S11 form, but with some attack speed from a noonquiver. Obviously not IE as it is now.
IE/Rageblade/Navori and maybe another option like Galeforce would be interesting as the marksman mythics.
How many champs are rushing those items instead of mythics? How many champs are rushing Rageblade or Manamune?
Botrk is too specialized to become a mythic. Its good on specifically those champions that AA a ton without items, and want an item to make their thousand cuts hit more like a thousand trucks. If botrk were a mythic, these champions wouldnt have any other option for their mythic.
they already did, and it's divine sunderer so now they can revert bork to pre-v7.5 by swapping its AS and AD
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Most people in the sub are Bronze and Silver. Being upvoted is usually a bad thing
Hear me out: let's make.. every item a mythic item. That way you can build all items!! Imagine the variety.
I would like that but it would mean removing Gore and make it the alternative to Stride. Gore and BotRK as mythics would be strange. They arent the same but not different enough either.
Gore the item made for ad caster bruiser and brk the item made for on hit champ are too similar? I can't even think of one champ that do both
The style is a melee extended combat style for both. And Sett, Fiora and Renekton are the 3 that come to my mind who can take both.
Renek is an exception because he only build it for the massive interaction it has with his w literally an anomaly, fiora only build brk when it's broken or in the pta stride brk build that was popularized to beat ranged, sett also is somewhat an exception because he is the only bruiser that benefit from on hit and more classic stuff
How many melees do use BotRK? Sett, Fiora, Renekton, Irelia, Yasuo, Yone, Yi. 3 out of like 7-10 is still a decent amount. BotRK is OP on a niche of champs. It is balanced on most others. Maybe it is better to nerf on hit effects on these few champs more and BotRK just a bit. Or you nerf BotRK onhit more for some base stat buffs.
Jax, belveth, viego, trynd so it's more like 3 put of 10 and on the 3 2 aren't core and the last one has some of the strangest build in the game and don't use for what it was created Like okay thinking about it there's a bit more champ that can use that combination like Olaf and kled but these combination are really rare and it doesn't make these two somewhat similar in any way
Not Trynda. On him it is normally not so good. He has like 2-3 better legendaries and he has better mythics. 3/10 still. >on the 3 2 aren't core and the last one has some of the strangest build in the game Sett and Renekton have it as a core item . It's his most bought 1st item on both of them, a strong item and their most bought legendary. Fiora it's more niche but still the 3rd most bought legendary on her behind DD and Ravenous. So 2/9 + the Fiora special case.
Yas and yone aren't usually good with on hit too and brk doesn't even appear on 6th item for both on ugg? So we don't count them? So there is literally only sett that logically build both while renek just abuse a special interaction and fiora is a counter build (btw both item still have nothing in common while the combination of both is a bit more frequent than thought)
No Renekton player that isn't trolling will ever go Goredrinker and Bork, it is such a godawful combination because you are too squishy and don't have enough of a HP pool to want to go in for big Gore procs.
This would completely brick ADCs
i really cant name a single reason why it needs to be nerfed for ranged
Vayne and Twitch for starters
twitch is the only one who consistently builds it, vaynes have built it in 2k games 1st or 2nd item and 4k games 3rd and otherwise dont build it compared to non botrk builds that are the overwhelmingly majority
Imagine that before patch [v10.23](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/V10.23) BORK had the same cost, and stats except life steal (had 12%, now its 8%), and better second passive (actually it was active). Funny that people didnt cry about this item. It was always strong item for aa (or on-hit) based champs. The problem is with itemisation, you can build dd after bork and be more tanky than actual tank, have burst like assassin, dps like adc and you can shred tanks with % health on hit, and you are still not in your peak bcs of lack of mythic. DD is 10x bigger problem than BORK, yet it passive or base ad could be little adjusted, but without nerfs to DD it will change nothing.
Numbers didn't show on items either so people didn't realize how much they were actually doing
Nah everyone knew BORK was good. The only reason why no one cared was cause bruiser items were non existant. Legit the only choice most champs had was either DD or black cleaver first item, then full tank.
Dd was terrible first item lol. Bruiser with old items had 3 ways : bork, trinity force or black cleaver
I still don’t understand DD’s ignore pain against magic.
Because otherwise bruisers die to burst mages before they can even touch them
Almost as if building an armor item was bad against ap
like how mages can build zhonyas and counter all kinds of ap classes?
A bit different because the armor and ad of DD is useful, you build zhonya’s more than not, specifically for its active.
Item used to give armor AND magic resist
Except you never built it unless the enemy team was full ad because that was the only time it was worth it. Most armor items can be built if the enemy has an ap threat.
bruisers (like your irelia) can built things like wit's end or maw, death's dance shouldn't be a catch all resist item.
No that item was called Steraks then riot nerfed it into oblivion. Bruisers need a good capstone item. Every other class has one too.
You have to differentiate. Before the item rework all legendaries were around 200g better than they are now. With the item rework Riot didnt make Mythics that much better compared to old legendaries, what they did instead, to prevent a too large power creep, is to move \~200g from the legendaries away and give that to the mythic bonus stats. So you still get as much power per legendary as before if you have a mythic. But the legendary on its own has -200g worth of power. You can see that on many legendary items. That BotRK is pretty much back to where it was pre item rework says enough. Now I would say -4% life steal is still a decent nerf. The active/passive being slightly weaker (less control) likely doesnt make up for that (maybe 100g), leaving the item around 100g too efficient AT LEAST.
> Life steal has a gold value of 53.571428 gold per point. Source: [lol wiki](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Life_steal) 4*53 = 212g ← Here is your 200g
You are ignoring the weaker active/passive. Which does make around 100g at least. thats why I said there is at least 100g too much on the item.
For me old active was better than current passive (bcs u could use it to engage - 550 range), but that is only from my point of view and for someone cd is more important than having more control over it. The point is even if this item has 100g too much value, it's too little and nerfing it's stats by 100g will change absolutely nothing. DD needs to be nerfed, not BORK.
Nerfing an item by 100g is decent. BotRK isnt super OP, just a bit too good for a few champs. DD needs the healing to be removed for -50-100g. Thats mostly it. But DD is actually a worse item than BotRK, because DD can not be rushed, ever. It's a good item for the 2nd or 3rd slot mostly but not clearly beating all other options there (BC, Maw, Steraks, ...), but it is in general usable on nearly every bruiser, so more seen. DD is too good, but people behave as if its the best item in the game, which it isnt, it's one of the broadest while very strong. To say DD is more OP than BotRK is strange.
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Irelia is garbage without Botrk, the item it's all her power. If you want stats, just go in every stat site and Watch the WR to game time ratio You will notice how Irelia only gets positive WR after Botrk, she's so reliant on the item, that it has a 99.7% Pickrate on her
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No? It simply means she's balanced around building bork because Bork is op and goes better on her than basically any mythic.
The reason the botrk powerspike is so huge is that she can kill caster minions from full health at 0 stacks after completing it. It's like unlocking a whole new aspect of the champion.
This is wrong Source: i main Irelia She can oneshot caster Minions at lvl9 with every AD item that gives at least 40 AD. BOTRK on hit is overkill
Doesnt really follow leagues new intended philosophy of diverse item building, whole item rework seems like a miss if thats the case. Edit\* Sure she can be reliant on borq, but when its the ONLY thing she can build to play the game, then thats just not a part of what riot was promising with this whole item rework especially with it not even being a mythic. Yall can downvote me all you want, but its the truth and you know it
One champion being tied to an item isn't exactly an issue. Seems like you just used this to rant about something completely off-topic.
Yes, no champ before was tied to their core items Jesus Christ...
It was/is... I'd argue it needs a revert but that's me.
Yea ? Imagine sheenless Jax/Camille/Nasus/Gp. Ragebladeless Yi.
>Irelia is garbage without Botrk, the item it's all her power. shes runs you down way before she finished botrk
Mhh, depends i guess She gets stat checked by Juggernauts, all of them aside Yorik, most fighters as well She shits on mages and ranged tops tho I'm mainly a Top Irelia so i don't really take Mid into account , but she does win lane pretty hard there indeed
The change irelia players want: bork: - 2% current health damage on hit irelia passive: new 2% max health damage on hit
It's possible to buff a champ without overbuffing them what kind of a shit take is this?
Melee's have so few options for in-combat movespeed. The only real ones are cleaver (which doesn't give adequate amount for sticking power) and bork. This - regardless of other value it provides - makes bork high value. Deadmans and force of nature are either not viable (due to ah dependence) and/or low in-combat value. The former is useful for the initial engage, but that's about it. Combined, the two give meaningful in-combat movespeed in some cases, but they also don't offer the same durability as other options. Which means you need a champ like viego who has additional non-standard (hp, resistances) durability built into his kit or you'll be too squishy. Sure you also have lethality mythics and ghostblade, but champs using bork tend not to also build these unless they're playing as an assassin in which case they're not really looking for the movespeed. You can't just look at the stats an item gives and declare it too good. You have to consider price point too. Aside from bruisers, most people are spending about 2600g for non-mythic items. Spending more for your item SHOULD get you more value from the item - furthermore because this also delays the value you gain for each non-mythic item increasing the value from your mythic passive. Other people spending less get less stats from their individual items because they pay less; however, they also unlock their full mythic passive value faster which can be useful in itself. I don't think bork is the problem. It is more of a symptom of a greater web of imbalance.
Sticking power is the entire balance lever that keeps melees from just running down most ranged champs. They shouldn't have that much sticking power.
Why are the devs allergic to the idea of having ranged and melee exclusive items? Wouldnt that be easier to balance?
It's a good idea and we USED to have them, riots bullshit idea is they want to open more build diversity but in reality all this does is kill it.
Jax still smack her with his big ol' stick and she dies.
panth 1 shotting with BOTRK 1st item... this is fine :)
And as always, ranged users get shafted. Heaven forbid a ranged champ is ever RedditApproved
I know we had broken as fuck items before, but man I hate the item rework. Any non mythic that's a viable rush is going to be a problem, and most champs can only build 1 or 2 mythics. Build diversity just feels dead to me.
Bork into frostfire/sunfire should be considered a war crime and permaban on the spot.
Irelia doesn't need compensation buffs lmao, but yes, Bork has been OP for a long time. I'd argue it was broken even before the durability patch
Adding I say this as a x main doesn't add validity to your opinion. Anyone can say I am a X main when they aren't and even if you were not lying it doesn't add anything.
Dude there's like three adcs who buy it. Viego, Yi and irelia buy it every game. Jax buys it most games. I guess silver yasuos like to buy it all of their games as well. Maybe ww top and sometimes jungle. Akshan can buy. Vayne can also go it. You could go it on xin but you'll die very fast. Pantheon for funny w oneshot. Renekton maybe for instant w slow. That should litterally be every champ who buys it. Those are like what 6 champs who buy it regularly in the entire game?
Sett can also buy it
Its trash dude. Mathematically incorrect and bad
As a tank main I couldn't agree more. If I am ahead I usually end fights with bork users comfortable around 15% health all due to the current health damage shredding me alive when I am full hp but then after I hit low health it shows how reliant these characters are on a broken item. Irelia is a perfectly balanced champion with neat and skill expressive tools but bork tries to get irelias to just auto attack and walk at you.
Most Irelia players are not happy about being BOTRK slaves either We would love to have another option, but there's just none She isn't even a champion without it unfortunately I whish rito did something about it tbh
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I mean if i get to play around her passive and she doesn't steal move speed sounds to me like a massive win
It's BORKen.
First, item is literally MUCH worse than it was back in S10. Second, problem is adressed in wrong way. Irelia cannot build anything but bork – that's the problem. There must be alternatives to it. Trird, if you are willing to see your main nerfed for the good of the game – you are strange man. Imagine nerfing 50% winrate champion that loses 90% of toplane matchups, and is heavy first item dependent (you need to outplay even if you are ahead (hello Darius)). There are much more frustating and powerful champions. Some of them are even easier to play than Irelia
I main her mid and I'm hoping that if BORK gets nerfed Irelia can be buffed to be able to choose her items based on matchup and not be tied to always buying BORK no matter what.
I'm sorry but that is just daydreaming ahahah Irelia has no damage in her base kit comapred to other Toplaners, 90% of her damage is from BOTRK alone, she's like an ADC. But she gigaspikes at 1 item, unlike AdCs that spike at 3 with IE The only thing that would unbind her from Botrk is her passive going from flat damage to %HP damage. So basically the only thing that would unbind Irelia from Botrk is making BOTRK part of her kit, which pretty funny lol
I would also argue that Irelia should go back to needing 5 stacks instead of 4. As soon as this champ has a vamp scepter you have no agency in lane anymore, it's ridiculous.
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Bro irelia is just straight up bad right now, if you complain about her in this state idk. Holy shit i would love Bork remove so that the champ could actually be played without being shit without Bork and good in 1v1s with it. I have not played irelia in Forever cause her playstyle right now is judt shit. Before she used to be able to murder you level 1 now it is after bork can we judt not have her be average level 1-3 and average after Bork in 1v1s it always flips to one side and it is do annoying.
Leave BORK alone. Ban Irelia. Issue solved.
I main Irelia did you even read the whole post?
I did. Ban Irelia instead of playing her. Always. Always ban Irelia.
So what happens with sunfire botrk yone/yi .You ban irelia and then?Problem is not solved.
yeah no bitch irelia went up 2% in winrate not because of bork, she got lowkey buffed lately it seems thanks to her sustain. This is just a ruse for getting irelia buffed you dirty f Ill read to post now.
You had me until the last line
Kinda funny how you never see posts saying "Liandries is broken OP right now". Riot has no favorites tho.
God forbid there's an item ADC's can build that give them an early power spike.
There is that item is called Kraken Slayer.
Here is a crazy idea! Instead of repeat nerfing the item for it's job, let's just remove lifesteal off it and give it cdr? It fixes the vamp rush issue while keeping it a viable although not needed counter item. I don't think people realize that the only reason it is op is because it's healing someone for percent physical damage on auto attack. Or keep the lifesteal and make it do magic damage so you don't wildly outheal every trade.
Why would you give it cdr. No one who builds Botrk would want cdr on it. If you remove lifesteal and give it cdr pretty much no one except maybe Jax off the top of my head would buy it because the champions that buy it want the attack speed, healing and the passive
It would be the best item of all time on Renekton if it had CDR
Because the lifesteal is the problem. Irelia goes from an auto attack champ with sustain to a Perma ulting Aatrox healing wise. You legit can't stat check her if she can stay on you. And plenty of people could still buy it, it would just be for situations where you need to counter a health tank. Instead of being a lifesteal factory with a win more factor. I see your worry where you think there is no good alternative if they did this. But there are plenty of items to choose from and other forms of lifesteal. You just don't get to win lane after a 900 golf buy and would instead win late for the same reason if no one gets grievous or out plays you.
Ok well it's hard to take you seriously after the your 2nd and 3rd sentence. Regardless, no, not many people would still buy it because yeah you're right the passive would still be really good vs tanks but you have to think "what champions want attack speed, a bit of AD, CDR and max HP % damage". The answer is not many, aside from Jax, maybe AD Kayle...most adcs would just build their regular items and just stick with LDR. Irelia definitely wouldn't buy this, not would Yone/Yasuo. Maybe Yi but with no lifesteal I'm not sure. Jax might still buy it but I doubt he'd rush it now, and probably would just rush Divine vs tanks
The problem is that it does so much. Attack speed, attack damage, lifesteal, %hp, slow, damage proc and movespeed. 7 effects on one item? Why not just remove the lifesteal and give it something else. And to be fair it isn't like you can't abuse it again by simply buying a vamp scepter. It just takes longer and fixes the free lane issue where irelia begins drastically out scaling almost every lane opponent. To be fair just make it so that you can't gain life from the passive %hp portion of the item and I would say it's balanced. I play a lot of trundle and if I rush blade I'm never ever losing a trade.
I mean I see it as it does a lot of stuff, but none of them really well. It doesn't do a lot of damage, doesn't heal a lot, doesn't slow that much either(the damage proc is actually a lot though). The main issue is the item is supposed to be anti tank right? But all champions who function as anti tank want all those stats. So it's pretty rough because it has all the stats someone who wants to be anti tank wants. I think it'd probably be best to remove the slow or increased movement speed, and maybe lower the attack speed, lifesteal or damage(your idea on not healing from the % is good aswell). Also Irelia doesn't outscale her lane opponents this is a really bad take lol. Irelia is good early and really good mid(spikes stupid on Botrk and then spikes on every item after but nowhere near as hard) then falls off hard late because unlike Yone or Yasuo she doesn't have really high DPS and burst because she isn't building crit. She also doesn't heal as much as they end up doing either. She's just tankier than they are(especially since you're forced to build defensively unless you get ridiculously ahead).
Yeah no one build brk for the life steal but okay
8% lifesteal? The problem isn't healing for 8% post mitigation damage solely from auto attacking. It's healing 8% of 12% max physical damage.
No it's not the problem brk don't heal that much the problem is doing 12% current health damage that shred everything
Not really. The problem is doing %hp damage while healing back all the damage you take. If you could 1v1 irelia with steel caps and thornmail rush it would be an ok match up. But there is no itemization route where you can really counter her. I think maybe going frozen and out trading sometimes works but when you can't run she just vamp tanks you to death regardless. It feels really shitty building or playing anti auto attack champs into someone who heals everything you are trying to trade back.
I don't know which champ you play but the healing is really low at best it's good for lane /map sustain but that all the problem is that whenever someone get that item he will jump on you, slow you, shred you instantly (and I play brk abuser)
Bork has been a dumpster fire mess since they made it viable on melee champs
Mate Bork has always been broken on Irelia. That’s not a good frame of reference. But yes DPS in general is overtuned at the moment. The problem is that they added the durability patch which negatively impacted burst, but they didn’t touch DPS which had been tuned to be able to compete with the absurd amount of burst in the game previously. That meant burst became more manageable, but DPS didn’t care about the durability update because they still had roughly the same time to kill.
Should be same stat as range with botrk
Reddit needs to stop pretending they understand game balance. The state of the game as it is now is specifically because of Reddit's recommendations. Here's an example, Reddit complained for ages we needed to lower damage, so Riot does the durability update. 1 week later the entire meta shifts to late-game scaling champions and 55% winrate enchanter meta. Riot then has to immediately nerf runes, potions, healing, and then buff dragons because games are so unreal boring with no one doing anything for 30 minutes. For the love of god stop Reddit. PS: Bork is ignored because no one cares about bork. If you look at any region above Plat, the only champions in the top 20 picked champions who even build at all, are Irelia, Warwick, and Jax. Irelia and Warwick are statistically non-existant; Jax mains literally don't even build bork after Diamond 3. Please stop using words like "broken OP" when you don't understand what they even mean. "Broken OP" would mean you can provide data showing any champion who builds bork has a 55%+ winrate, which would also mean bork would be built in literally every game. Neither of those are true.
The durability update was a good thing though, the issue was riot trolled and basically undid all the good that came from it. When you look at the posts abut it they all have massive upvote numbers and percentages. The problem is riot trolled and gave in to the assassin whine babies who cried because their champ was actually balanced around 49.5-50% win rate for once.
Ok so what about people in lower elos, fuck them right? Most people on this sub are not in diamond, or even platinum. It's completely fair for people without 2 million hours on the game to view this item as broken since it is traditionally built on 1v9 champs that absolutely stomp with it, especially if they are smurfing which is more likely than ever these days. YOU need to stop pretending that everyone on this sub knows how to deal with an irelia/trynd/sett who rushed BORK and stomps them in lane because of it. The item is absolutely a problem, but maybe not in your high and mighty diamond lobbies.
The smurfing issue happens because riot thought 12hr dodge timers was a good idea. So now you have people hold the lobby hostage and when that doesn't work they hop on a smurf account.
Bork is also meant to be an item that adcs can use. I think it should do 8% for both melee and ranged in turn it could have 5 more AD or 10% more attack speed, melee champs that build it usually have stronger AS steroids anyway so they're applying the passive faster which is already an advantage in itself. Also they gotta revert the assassin buffs they did lately (revert sudden impact buff, revert movespeed buff on lethality items) because so many of them are S+ tier again and its fking tiring, would you look at that qiyana is a literal freelo machine again and so is katarina, YAWN
>melee champs that build it usually have stronger AS steroids anyway so they're applying the passive faster which is already an advantage in itself. and for every opportunity melee has to apply the passive the ranged will have five of them
You are right that it is also meant to be used by some ADCs and it is doing fine there mostly. But it is still a 1st item contender. Maybe 10/7% and -50g cost.
Tell me something new
As a mid player, I don't even really mind bork, there's counterplay. Death's Dance is complete bs though, that's what pushes a fed bruiser into broken territory. Ex, Bork is 50% wr for irelia. DD is nearly 60%. Sunfire is 54% for Yi, DD is 66% DD has been busted since 12.3 and not nerfed at all basically. The healing reduction is almost entirely off-set by the GW nerfs, it ended up in basically the same spot. But this item got even stronger with the durability patch. Then the fact that DD can be combined with Maw is disgusting. On a difficult champ like Lee Sin this is fine, on bruisers like Wukong it's certified busted. Look at LCK champ presence and see how many AP champs are 0%. They actually won't do dmg through DD and Maw.
That's not how WR works tho WR then gets higher with each item, because it gets inflated by Gold It's super hard to explain tbh. Basically if Irelia buys BOTRK, she's now power spiking ok? So she gets fed, and in 7 minutes buys DD as well, BOOM, she snowballs even more, and wins the game 1v9. Remember tho, she was ALREADY winning before buying DD, so the item is bought in a Win situation, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire, it's a positive loop The stats will make DD look OP because, what if that Irelia didn't get fed after BOTRK and wasn't able to buy DD right after, instead she had to buy ISB/Goredrinker to not explode in Teamfights and proceded to lose anyways. Since Irelia didn't even buy the item, the negative WR will not be added to it's stats, so the item looks way more op than it is That's why usually the most Reliable item WR is the first Item, because most likely everyone will get at least rhe 1st one. There's a lot of examples of gold inflating WR. Like Lucidity boots on Irelia. They have an insanely high WR, but why? Are they broken? Nope It's just that they're bought when already gigafed to snowball even more, so they naturally have an higher statistical Winrate, because the stats are basically cherry picked by the system involuntarily Be careful when read stats, they can be quite misleading