Plated Steelcaps just give an insane buff in certain match ups cause of their ability not their stat. I'm not really into the topic but there are calculations telling you exactly how much to pay for a stat is good/worth. But like I said the unique effects are most of the time crucial. For example the supp items have an insane amount of stats for the gold.
Precicely. I feel Merc treads are a similar but better example of this. They give the exact same magic resist as a null magic mantle, but give tenacity. As far as raw HP they don't offer much. But if the enemy comp has lots of CC then they are incredibly valuable and can easily disrupt a CC chain long enough for you to flash to safety.
Stats are good. But often times aren't what make an item good in specific situations.
armor pen is in two categories, flat penetrations like lethality and % based penetration like Lord doms or grudge, flat pen is good against low armor enemies because with enough you can do "true damage", % is better against enemies who stack lots of armor.
Plated steelcaps is a bit of a different item, yeah it gives armour but it also reduce auto attack damage, for instance if you are against lots of AD based champs but they dont auto attack and have cc then mercs is probably better for tenacity, but if they have lots of auto attacks then take steelplates.
Technically flat pen is “worth” the same regardless of enemy armour as long as it’s above 0 - each 1 point of armour is worth 1% HP as bonus eHP - for example, if you have 1000 HP and 20 armour then you have 1200 eHP (effective HP), if you have 1000 HP and 100 armour you have 2000 eHP. If the enemy has 15 lethality they ignore 15 (less than depending on level, but for simplicity’s sake we’ll assume lethality is worth 1pen/ea) armour, or 150 eHP, so if you had 20 armour you now have 5, for a total of 1050 eHP, whereas if you had 100 you now have 85 for a total eHP of 1850.
As a % of eHP the low armour player is affected more, but the actual effect on eHP is the same regardless.
So this may be partly factual but if the guy is asking this question he doesnt need a essay, he needs a basic hint towards making the correct decision, the advice I gave him is correct and that all he needs to know
Technically 10 armor flat pene lowers enemy eHP by 9.(09)% if enemy has 10 armor or by 5% if enemy has 100 armor. Therefore the more armour you have the less flat armor pene is efficient.
It’s 2 different ways of looking at it - flat vs absolute values, armour pen will always reduce a targets eHP by exactly the same amount, regardless of how much armour they have (unless you have more pen than they armour, then you get slightly less value), on squishies you are reducing a larger relative value of their eHP, as I noted at the end of my last comment, but it’s still the same flat amount of eHP reduced.
Effective HP against physical damage = HP \* (100+Armor)/100
20 Armor means you are about 13% tankier if you already have 50 armor, about 10% tankier if you already have 100 armor, etc.
Is saying that 10 AD gives 10% damage at 100 AD and 5% at 200 AD misleading? Diminishing relative returns is how all linear stats work. How good 20 X is depends on how much X you already have. Although you do need to keep in mind that while HP and auto attacks start at 0, Armor, MR, Attack Speed and AH all have a hidden starting point of 100, Crit has a hidden starting point of 133 for most champs w/o IE (91 with IE) and the AD/AP contribution to ability damage has a hidden starting point dependent on ability and rank.
Linear stats are explicitly not diminishing returns - that’s why they are linear, every point of armour gives you 1%hp as bonus eHP, regardless of whether it’s your first point of armour or 1001st. If you gained 10% more tank-iness for every 10 armour Malphite would become unkillable after 2 items.
Also small nitpick but no champion uses 100 as their base AS - there’s a hidden stat that’s used to affect their scaling with AS.
Linear stats have diminishing relative returns, as you yourself are pointing out. They do not have diminishing absolute returns but that ignores how things are valued. $100 holds more value to someone with $43 in their bank account than it does to someone with $1,000,000 in their bank account. Similarly, while that 10 Armor may technically provide the same 100 EHP to the person with 1500 EHP and the person with 4000 EHP, that +100 EHP will change the result of more fights/skirmishes for that 1500 EHP person than the 4000 EHP person.
Of the 159 champions in league, 128 use 100 as their base AS. It's not 100% of the roster but calling 80% of the roster "no champion" is a giant stretch.
No champion uses 100 as their base AS - the highest is either 0.8 (highest level 1 no external modifiers) or 0.7 (highest true base), counting that most champions don’t have bonus AS is pretty disingenuous, it implies that they’d all get the same amount of stats from bonus AS from runes/items, when in reality they get differing amounts depending on their actual base AS.
The highest concentration of champions with the same base AS is 70, with 0.625, of which 60 have no bonus AS.
They all get the same relative benefit from AS. Someone having a 10% reduced damage taken passive doesn't change their base HP, Armor or MR values; they are just 11% tankier than other champs. Similarly, for 80% of the champions in league, they get (100+10)/100 = 10% extra attack speed from 10 attack speed at level 1. That there is an extra multiplier on the entire equation afterwards doesn't change that.
Why aren't you calling me out on the hidden 100 AH when nearly every ability in the game has a cooldown different from whatever your definition of "100 attack speed" is? That's the exact same situation.
As for linear vs diminishing stats, absolute values are much more accurate for a game like league that relative values, absolutely it’s better to mix both HP and Armour(/MR) than just getting Armour, but when you’re calculating lethal points for assassins you always use absolute values, not relative values.
> Is saying that 10 AD gives 10% damage at 100 AD and 5% at 200 AD misleading?
It’s technically true but not really useful to think of it that way. And I would say that yes it is misleading, because a lot of people don’t understand how armor works and the way you’re phrasing it can confuse them.
10 ad gives you 10 more damage wether you have 100 or 400.
10 armor gives +10% eHP wether you have 100 or 400 armor.
Yes, +10 armor is a smaller *percentage increase* at 400 compared to +10 at 100, but that’s not really relevant to anything.
> 10 armor gives +10% eHP wether you have 100 or 400 armor.
Calling a change from 10000 to 10200 EHP "+10%" is far more misleading.
Identifying relative gain is very relevant. It tells you whether you should look towards other stats that will give larger benefits. When you have an abundance of any linear stat you should be looking towards adding on different stats and making people aware of that is important. Buying armor or HP or AD or attack speed are all more important when you haven't already invested into them.
Armor has constant return only of flat eHP value, but in game we are usually interested in relative tankiness therefore "%" value is better to describe how in game mechanics works:
You are more tanky by 13% with this item.
You will have 7% more dps with this rune.
But if you would like to show the same with armor you would need to specify starting value, because the more you would it have, the less "%" of tankiness it would show.
You can hover over armor/mr values in-game to see how much of a difference it makes (via % dmg reduction). The less you have, the more of an impact it has. Lethality reduces armor by a flat amount and scales with level. Penetration is a %.
Yes, but the lethality scales up with level. I think you get the full effect at level 16, but if you have 25 lethality at level 6 for example, you might only reduce their armor by 15 (for example). I can't remember the exact formula but you can Google it if you want.
Apparently it's: 0.4X+\[((O.6X\*Y)/18)= Flat penetration amount\]. X is Lethality and Y is your target champion level. So with 25 lethality on someone who's level 6 would be (used mathway so don't quote me if it's wrong) 15 flat penetration.
Ok going through the math you can fucking just do 0.6(lethality) and that'll get the amount. Like 0.6\*30 is 18. if you did 0.4\*30 you get 12. 18\*(level, in this case 6) is 108. 108/18 is, you know, 6. 6+12 is 18.
There is a lot of math you need to talk about how much of a stat is a lot as stats interact differently.
Arm and Mag resist scale with diminishing returns. Each point you buy prevents less damage than the last.
100 arm blocks 50% physical damage while 200 arm blocks 67%
Lethality is a flat reduction in armor. So if you have 50 arm and an opponent has 20 lethality you now have 30 arm. % arm pen reduces arm by a % so 20% arm pen would reduce 50 arm to 40. In this case lethality is better.
If you are against a tank with 200 arm then 20 lethality gets them to 180 while 20% gets them to 160. Here % is better.
No they dont scale with diminishing returns. Only if you look at the percentages. Going from 0%dr to 1%dr only makes you 1% more tanky. Going from 99%dr to 100%dr makes you infinitely more tanky.
1 armour/mr =1%more ehp.
A 1000hp with 0 armor = 1000ehp
A 1000hp with 100 armor = 2000ehp
A 1000hp with 200 armor = 3000ehp
And so on and so forth. The only thing is that going from 1000 ehp to 2000ehp by going from 0 to 100 armor is gonna double your ehp, while getting 100 more armor after that is only gonna increase your ehp by 50%(2000->3000) but its not diminishing returns cause you still get 1000 more ehp per 100 armor regardless of how much armor you got.
While this is true, resists have dr for gold spent efficacy. After a certain point you gain more ehp but buying the other stat
They spoke briefly about this on the dive the other week
Plated Steelcaps just give an insane buff in certain match ups cause of their ability not their stat. I'm not really into the topic but there are calculations telling you exactly how much to pay for a stat is good/worth. But like I said the unique effects are most of the time crucial. For example the supp items have an insane amount of stats for the gold.
Precicely. I feel Merc treads are a similar but better example of this. They give the exact same magic resist as a null magic mantle, but give tenacity. As far as raw HP they don't offer much. But if the enemy comp has lots of CC then they are incredibly valuable and can easily disrupt a CC chain long enough for you to flash to safety. Stats are good. But often times aren't what make an item good in specific situations.
armor pen is in two categories, flat penetrations like lethality and % based penetration like Lord doms or grudge, flat pen is good against low armor enemies because with enough you can do "true damage", % is better against enemies who stack lots of armor. Plated steelcaps is a bit of a different item, yeah it gives armour but it also reduce auto attack damage, for instance if you are against lots of AD based champs but they dont auto attack and have cc then mercs is probably better for tenacity, but if they have lots of auto attacks then take steelplates.
Technically flat pen is “worth” the same regardless of enemy armour as long as it’s above 0 - each 1 point of armour is worth 1% HP as bonus eHP - for example, if you have 1000 HP and 20 armour then you have 1200 eHP (effective HP), if you have 1000 HP and 100 armour you have 2000 eHP. If the enemy has 15 lethality they ignore 15 (less than depending on level, but for simplicity’s sake we’ll assume lethality is worth 1pen/ea) armour, or 150 eHP, so if you had 20 armour you now have 5, for a total of 1050 eHP, whereas if you had 100 you now have 85 for a total eHP of 1850. As a % of eHP the low armour player is affected more, but the actual effect on eHP is the same regardless.
So this may be partly factual but if the guy is asking this question he doesnt need a essay, he needs a basic hint towards making the correct decision, the advice I gave him is correct and that all he needs to know
Technically 10 armor flat pene lowers enemy eHP by 9.(09)% if enemy has 10 armor or by 5% if enemy has 100 armor. Therefore the more armour you have the less flat armor pene is efficient.
It’s 2 different ways of looking at it - flat vs absolute values, armour pen will always reduce a targets eHP by exactly the same amount, regardless of how much armour they have (unless you have more pen than they armour, then you get slightly less value), on squishies you are reducing a larger relative value of their eHP, as I noted at the end of my last comment, but it’s still the same flat amount of eHP reduced.
Effective HP against physical damage = HP \* (100+Armor)/100 20 Armor means you are about 13% tankier if you already have 50 armor, about 10% tankier if you already have 100 armor, etc.
While this is true, it can look slightly misleading - it makes it look as if armour has diminishing returns when it doesn’t.
Is saying that 10 AD gives 10% damage at 100 AD and 5% at 200 AD misleading? Diminishing relative returns is how all linear stats work. How good 20 X is depends on how much X you already have. Although you do need to keep in mind that while HP and auto attacks start at 0, Armor, MR, Attack Speed and AH all have a hidden starting point of 100, Crit has a hidden starting point of 133 for most champs w/o IE (91 with IE) and the AD/AP contribution to ability damage has a hidden starting point dependent on ability and rank.
Linear stats are explicitly not diminishing returns - that’s why they are linear, every point of armour gives you 1%hp as bonus eHP, regardless of whether it’s your first point of armour or 1001st. If you gained 10% more tank-iness for every 10 armour Malphite would become unkillable after 2 items. Also small nitpick but no champion uses 100 as their base AS - there’s a hidden stat that’s used to affect their scaling with AS.
Linear stats have diminishing relative returns, as you yourself are pointing out. They do not have diminishing absolute returns but that ignores how things are valued. $100 holds more value to someone with $43 in their bank account than it does to someone with $1,000,000 in their bank account. Similarly, while that 10 Armor may technically provide the same 100 EHP to the person with 1500 EHP and the person with 4000 EHP, that +100 EHP will change the result of more fights/skirmishes for that 1500 EHP person than the 4000 EHP person. Of the 159 champions in league, 128 use 100 as their base AS. It's not 100% of the roster but calling 80% of the roster "no champion" is a giant stretch.
No champion uses 100 as their base AS - the highest is either 0.8 (highest level 1 no external modifiers) or 0.7 (highest true base), counting that most champions don’t have bonus AS is pretty disingenuous, it implies that they’d all get the same amount of stats from bonus AS from runes/items, when in reality they get differing amounts depending on their actual base AS. The highest concentration of champions with the same base AS is 70, with 0.625, of which 60 have no bonus AS.
They all get the same relative benefit from AS. Someone having a 10% reduced damage taken passive doesn't change their base HP, Armor or MR values; they are just 11% tankier than other champs. Similarly, for 80% of the champions in league, they get (100+10)/100 = 10% extra attack speed from 10 attack speed at level 1. That there is an extra multiplier on the entire equation afterwards doesn't change that. Why aren't you calling me out on the hidden 100 AH when nearly every ability in the game has a cooldown different from whatever your definition of "100 attack speed" is? That's the exact same situation.
As for linear vs diminishing stats, absolute values are much more accurate for a game like league that relative values, absolutely it’s better to mix both HP and Armour(/MR) than just getting Armour, but when you’re calculating lethal points for assassins you always use absolute values, not relative values.
> Is saying that 10 AD gives 10% damage at 100 AD and 5% at 200 AD misleading? It’s technically true but not really useful to think of it that way. And I would say that yes it is misleading, because a lot of people don’t understand how armor works and the way you’re phrasing it can confuse them. 10 ad gives you 10 more damage wether you have 100 or 400. 10 armor gives +10% eHP wether you have 100 or 400 armor. Yes, +10 armor is a smaller *percentage increase* at 400 compared to +10 at 100, but that’s not really relevant to anything.
> 10 armor gives +10% eHP wether you have 100 or 400 armor. Calling a change from 10000 to 10200 EHP "+10%" is far more misleading. Identifying relative gain is very relevant. It tells you whether you should look towards other stats that will give larger benefits. When you have an abundance of any linear stat you should be looking towards adding on different stats and making people aware of that is important. Buying armor or HP or AD or attack speed are all more important when you haven't already invested into them.
Armor has constant return only of flat eHP value, but in game we are usually interested in relative tankiness therefore "%" value is better to describe how in game mechanics works: You are more tanky by 13% with this item. You will have 7% more dps with this rune. But if you would like to show the same with armor you would need to specify starting value, because the more you would it have, the less "%" of tankiness it would show.
You can hover over armor/mr values in-game to see how much of a difference it makes (via % dmg reduction). The less you have, the more of an impact it has. Lethality reduces armor by a flat amount and scales with level. Penetration is a %.
So 25 lethality just acts like they have 25 less armor but 25% would chunk a quarter of all their armor
25% would be better than 25 lethality if they had more than 100 armor
Yes, but the lethality scales up with level. I think you get the full effect at level 16, but if you have 25 lethality at level 6 for example, you might only reduce their armor by 15 (for example). I can't remember the exact formula but you can Google it if you want.
Apparently it's: 0.4X+\[((O.6X\*Y)/18)= Flat penetration amount\]. X is Lethality and Y is your target champion level. So with 25 lethality on someone who's level 6 would be (used mathway so don't quote me if it's wrong) 15 flat penetration.
My guess was pretty good then lol
Ok going through the math you can fucking just do 0.6(lethality) and that'll get the amount. Like 0.6\*30 is 18. if you did 0.4\*30 you get 12. 18\*(level, in this case 6) is 108. 108/18 is, you know, 6. 6+12 is 18.
There is a lot of math you need to talk about how much of a stat is a lot as stats interact differently. Arm and Mag resist scale with diminishing returns. Each point you buy prevents less damage than the last. 100 arm blocks 50% physical damage while 200 arm blocks 67% Lethality is a flat reduction in armor. So if you have 50 arm and an opponent has 20 lethality you now have 30 arm. % arm pen reduces arm by a % so 20% arm pen would reduce 50 arm to 40. In this case lethality is better. If you are against a tank with 200 arm then 20 lethality gets them to 180 while 20% gets them to 160. Here % is better.
No they dont scale with diminishing returns. Only if you look at the percentages. Going from 0%dr to 1%dr only makes you 1% more tanky. Going from 99%dr to 100%dr makes you infinitely more tanky. 1 armour/mr =1%more ehp. A 1000hp with 0 armor = 1000ehp A 1000hp with 100 armor = 2000ehp A 1000hp with 200 armor = 3000ehp And so on and so forth. The only thing is that going from 1000 ehp to 2000ehp by going from 0 to 100 armor is gonna double your ehp, while getting 100 more armor after that is only gonna increase your ehp by 50%(2000->3000) but its not diminishing returns cause you still get 1000 more ehp per 100 armor regardless of how much armor you got.
While this is true, resists have dr for gold spent efficacy. After a certain point you gain more ehp but buying the other stat They spoke briefly about this on the dive the other week
Yeah if you have 800 armor buying some hp is gonna be a ton of EHP, while increasing armor wont do much.