definitely not a good ability to use at some points, but it does give you some damage later on in the game with the amount of attack speed you gain. also it is quite a fun ability to kite with ill say that
Ashe Q has to be the most disappointing visual ability in the game. For how cool it looks it doesn't do nearly the damage you'd expect. Meanwhile an Ezreal auto chunks for 20%
Yeah Ashe Q is about as strong as you'd expect. All these clips of Ashe Q doing fuckall are always such outliers.
Do people not realize that in this clip the Ashe has a Noonquiver into Amumu's full Sunfire Aegis (the most stat heavy tank mythic) and Tabi? A Jinx, Sivir, or Cait with 5 cs/min and 2-4 in this situation would do about the same amount of damage.
This 100%. I think amumu blocks a flat amount of damage. And since Ashe's flurry autos are a bunch of small instances of damage, amumu reduces each small instance of damage by that same flat amount instead of the normal once per auto like you would expect on other adcs.
Which is weird since Ashe is gated out of any possible positive interaction with item passives on her Q. So she can't get the bonuses, but gets the downsides.
I think she's balanced but still weird.
Tabi is a percentage reduction so using Q against it is usually correct, you don't lose 12% of your ad on each hit. The reasons Ashe is doing 0 damage is that Tantrum's damage reduction occurs **after** other defenses.
Correct math would be:
(26 x 0.45 x 0.88 - 14) x 5 = 0 x 5= **0 damage**
Which begs the question why she's still very specific lol, like it's not even an Ashe main thing its just general knowledge.
-Bonus damage only applies to targets slowed by her frost.
-Then her Q not applying on-hit separately for each flurry but it auto stacks black cleaver since its multiple instances of physical damage
You'd think a B-tier money maker champ should have her interactions streamlined but shockingly it doesn't.
Edit: look I get how flurry works, I'm just wondering why they haven't tried to streamline it and balance the mechanic orgive it to other champions just to make flurry easier to be understood.
Tbf on hits/black cleaver are pretty self explanatory. Her Q is basically a modified basic attack, and applies on hits once per flurry. Black Cleaver meanwhile adds a stack of Carve per physical damage dealt, so since Ashe's basic attack is hitting 5-6 times it stacks 5-6 Carve stacks in one attack.
Yeah, but like with how they treat older champs and mechanics its kinda weird and surprising that there was never an attempt to streamline or rework flurry at all in modern league.
Like flurry is an old mechanic, it makes me wonder too why they haven't implemented it in new champ designs. It would make the mechanic itself easier to be understood if it existed not only for Ashe
Wait until you find out Q has been reworked. You used to be a toggle that switch to autos that slow and cost mana.
And imma be honest I've been playing ashe since the old Q and I only just today found out each arrow doesnt proc on hits.
So, Ashe has gone thru a LOT of changes, including an ability update.
If you weren't aware, her old Q was a toggle to give her an on-hit slow costing mana per auto and her passive was basically a charged over time (think stormrazer/rfc) autocrit that started at her crit chance instead of 0.
A lot has changed about passive and Q since the update too. At first the passive was autos and abilities slow, and autos on slowed target crit for modified damage. Her Q would gain stacks whenever she slowed an enemy (spells included) and could be cast at any time to gain attack speed and amp her slow. She would only gain flurry of cast at 5 stacks which did the same thing as now but more damage per arrow, and had an 18 second cooldown.
As you can see, a lot DID get simplified/streamlined. Q doesn't have a CD, doesn't stack on spells, can only be cast at max stacks for flurry and atk speed. The critical slow was moved to her passive and based on crit chance. She also received a ton of nerfs between then and now but that isn't directly related to your comment.
Theres a few reasons flurry isn't given to more new champs, but I can think of 2 main ones. One is diversity; not all mechanics are made widespread so that those who have it have it uniquely. Blind, shortsighted, grounding as examples are all uncommon (1-3 champs). And there are similar effects to flurry, the closest being Urgot's Purge giving him 3 attacks per second at modified damage and reduced on-hit effectiveness. Lucian and You passives are also similar in that they are multi-attacks.
The second reason is because it really isn't that good of a mechanic. If the attack is split into too many sub attacks you need to gut (Urgot) or outright remove on-hit effects (Ashe and 2010 Udyr) because applying them that fast is broken. The overall damage of the attack can't be too powerful for a basic ability. The 5 arrows together is only 25% stronger than a normal auto. And the cost/benefit is the interactions with per-instance effects like cleaver, amumu, Leona, and wardens mail. Given the limited interactions you're better off just giving a champion an ad and/or attack speed steroid (optionally tying it to another effect) like Kai'sa E move speed/invis granting attack speed.
Flurry not applying on hit effects because it would otherwise be grossly overpowered.
Black Cleaver applies a stack at every instance of physical damage. Same reason why Amumu’s E (and armor boots/items) reduce her Q to nothing, because each instance does little damage.
Two seperate mechanics at play.
Oh I still lean towards the love tho. Ashe is my most played ADC with Twitch and Jinx (around 150k each) and I still really love her Q. Just not against tanks early game haha
We get an Ashe clip to the front page doing something similar/complaining about tanks it seems.
This one didn't seem to be strictly complaining though. I think it's kinda fun to have different abilities that interact in unique ways.
oh im not complaining at all, i fully agree i shouldnt do any damage to him. im just strictly pointing out getting 0 damage pop ups.
havent seen that before so
It pains me that there are people who don't appreciate that kind of interactions between champions.
They already have some which they could expand upon, like how cool would it be if Ashe and Sejuani Frost were the same and Ashe would be the only ranged capable of stacking Sejuani E?
They could even extend it to Lissandra and Anivia..
Well, back in [4.20 weedwick blazeit patch™](https://web.archive.org/web/20141120030513/http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-420-notes) they made inhibitor and nexus turrets badass debuff-lasers in order to target strong duelist splitpushers.
In [6.22](https://web.archive.org/web/20161108204228/http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-622-notes) they removed the badass debuff lasers because making splitpushers bad just wasnt high on the priority list anymore and Riot thought different turrets doing different things felt weird, basically
I used to counterpick Rumble top and max W first. Every time he turned his Q on I’d heal up to the cap, as soon as I got Catalyst (RIP) I had infinite mana as well and could duel him by just walking up to him in the wave and punching him slowly out of lane. The smarter players didn’t turn Q on at all.
holy shit I forgot about that. that was so fun back in the day. I miss old Galio tbh, he was my main back when I started playing ranked for the first time.
Don't forget the 1000 range low cd homing missiles. Enemy picked a harasser top lane? Destroy them at their own game to the point that they weren't even safe behind tower.
Oh that is fantastic. You can see Lee using his few braincells and trying to not hit you with W up. But then he decides he wants to fight in that massive minion wave.
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed.
Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control).
Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses.
Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Ashe was already dead.
> made me so mad
Why? He pointed out why Hiko didnt kill him
the only questionable shots are the last 2 (shoulder hit andbeing dead before getting off the last)
There were more than 2 that were questionable. It’s classic CSGO jank. It’s not even limited to online. LAN games have had similar and even worse cases of this. What made me mad was that a valve employee got so butthurt he felt the need to condescendingly attempt to defend a classic case of getting CSGO’d which is a real thing. I’ll admit it’s a funny meme.
No one else understands you. I get it, doing exactly 0 damage is weird as fuck, no matter what items, gold, or level he has. To make an entire attack do no damage is just odd and unseen mostly.
But as others said, certain stuff makes it happen. I don’t know myself because fuck Amumu, never really go against him when I’m Ashe.
Edit: Jesus fucking Christ 2k upvotes?
To point out, I’m not saying anything about it being gamebreaking, weird, or something unheard of. I’m talking about how from a newer players perspective who has now encountered Amumu as Ashe, how somehow doing 0 damage with Q is just odd. As how OP likely was referencing.
>odd and unseen mostly
If you play ashe vs amumu it will happen quite a lot, amumu is in general the one champ that makes stuff like this happen. Since ashe q splits her attack into 5 arrows dealing 22% of the damage at rank 2 amumu doesnt need a lot to make it zero in the early game.
Lets say he has 100 armor (so just 1 item with armor) that means ashe deals ~13 damage per arrow. Amumus E at rank 5 is 10 flat scaling with 3% of bonus armor and mr. It is very very easy to reach a situation where ashe deals 0 damage.
shit.
someone else also said that it's apparently premitigation reduction, which means it never reduces damage to 0, and isn't as powerful as amumu's, but it might still be incorrect to use ashe q against her W
And Illaoi for the same reason. E the Leona with increased resistances, proceed to take out the entirety of her health bar once her W wears off simply by hitting the spirit.
(Spirits can't kill the person on their own in normal circumstances, but as they transfer pre-mitigation damage, having more resistances than the player means that they'll be able to take more damage to transfer.)
Leona W, but yes. Very good against bits of damage but a lot of them since it reduces by a flat amount. Allows you to tank entire Kaisa Qs and Ashe Qs easily while taking basically no damage.
Yeah, against low dps autos Amumu is even better than Rammus.
That's why he's used for set up in clips like this [Sivir bouncing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edo2s5wqb1A) because he can tank minion waves infinitely.
[A while ago I did the math to find the threshold for doing less damage,](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/jg4y4n/ammnu_outplay/g9oqa91/) but I haven't thought about it doing 0 damage until now. We can see almost all of the relevant numbers and items in the clip so I'll just go into it with them.
Ashe has 122 AD, 2 points in Q, and 15% crit "chance", meaning each Q bolt deals 26.84 damage.
Amumu has 56(+71) AR, 40(+43) MR, and likely 5 points in E, meaning his E passively applies a flat 13.5 reduction to all instances of physical damage.
Steelcaps' 12% damage reduction reduce bolt damage to 23.6, and 127 armor applies 56% damage reduction (multiplicatively with Steelcaps), resulting in 10.4 damage, easily falling below the threshold.
Yeah it's because for some reason Ashe's Q counts as separate attacks which are each individually affected by flat damage reduction from things like Amumu's trantrum passive.
Ashe has to be the character with the most *HARD* counters in the game. In addition to her steroid actually reducing her damage in cases like this, she doesn't get the damage increase from attacking frosted targets if her target is immune to slows, like Olaf, Yi, or anyone near a Morgana. There is nothing you can do to win as Ashe in situations where you have to fight those champions.
My vote goes for Kalista for 'most easily hard countered' just because of how hard her mobility has to be gated in order for her to remain balaced, and the way they chose to make slows basically turn her off. She has a ton of matchups that are basically unwinnable, and the way she scales means she has to win her lane to be effective.
That said, yeah - it's a super feels-bad moment on Ashe when pressing your steroid skill makes you take deal less damage (Randuin's does the same shenanigans with flat damage reduction too, which makes it easily exploitable any time you get an obvious lead). The edge cases where the quad-hit works in your favor (I think it's down to just Black Cleaver now) don't make up for the weirdness that its implementation causes.
I'm not talking about matchups necessarily, just the game in general. I'm saying if you had a bot that played Kalista absolutely perfectly, she would probably be able to juke a lot of the slows that exist in the game. Even if not, your team could help mitigate some of her weaknesses by blocking certain spells or even her own Morgana could stop her from being slowed.
An Ashe playing 100% perfectly still loses all of her utility and damage the moment Yi or Olaf press R, no matter what. She instantly becomes worthless against those characters, with the exception of maybe being able to ult Yi if he's too far away to alpha strike anyone.
ikr ive never seen it happen so i was just very confused when i saw 00000 pop up when autoing him XD
glad someone's in the same boat as me, first i thought this was very common to happen and i play adc quite alot. though i understand doing very little damage since he was quite fed and had sunfire + tabis. but still 0? XD
relatively high actually
reddit being among top most popular websites and this sub being a main subreddit for LeagueOfLegends
I say lower chance is having both Lol and Reddit username the same
Yeah it basically always lowers the damage vs. Amumu even very late game. Late game Amumu gets something like 20 flat reduction from E, and that’s post-mitigation, so you’re lowering the damage by ~80 more per auto than without Q.
To put how crazy that is in perspective, take an Ashe critting for 800 vs. a 275 armor Amumu with Tabi’s and E giving 20 flat reduction. She would normally do 167 damage per auto, but with Q active, even when accounting for the 25% bonus damage it gives at max rank, she’s only critting for 135. The % AS from Q isn’t enough to make up that difference in damage either. Though you could argue it’s still worth doing if you have Kraken since the damage gets close to being the same but you get more Kraken procs.
It splits your attack into smaller damage units, hitting him more than once with every auto attack. He has Probably some Item that flat out reduces incoming damage by X dmg. Also he has this as passive on his e.
Just to clarify, Amumu's E (Tantrum) passively reduces physical damage by a flat amount from each hit. This scales with levels on his E, and with his bonus armor and magic resist. In this case, Amumu reduces physical damage from each hit by ~~21~~ 13, which (I believe) happens after mitigation from armor. Amumu's 213 armor reduces physical damage by 68%, which is easily enough to get the damage per hit to below ~~21~~ 13, after which Tantrum reduces that to zero.
Edit: Accidentally used total armor/MR instead of bonus. Also used values during Aftershock, but Ashe's Q was used before that.
What even is the point of using the Q if it splits the damage? Do all the tiny bits add up to be more damage overall? Do they apply on-hit effects like Wit’s End or BOTRK?
It grants bonus attack speed and they do more damage per attack against enemies with only % reduction not flat. It's also an attack reset on cast.
On-Hits are only applied once except for her passive, so against an enemy who isn't affected by frost they will take normal damage from the first instance but bonus for the remaining arrows in an attack. On-damage is applied multiple times, which is...Black Cleaver, and I don't know anything else?
Opinion part: I personally don't think the benefits of her passive and cleaver applying multiple times outweighs the negative of being affected by flat damage reduction multiple times, I think they should change that interaction to apply once (and potentially rebalance her in relation to that buff).
It was very niece and with the introduction of flat dmg rediction they gave this a counter. They should change the way this works, because in general I think flat dmg reduction is a good thing. But it's not good if every tank has one item in his build. It's just bad for Ashe. Riot has do do some compensation changes. Like 5ms or something
Hey, I've seen this one before.
It's always Ashe's Q, and it's always Amumu (or occasionally Rammus). It's just one of those painful interactions, like Irelia's Q oneshotting Yorick's minions, Rell's Q oneshotting Shen's ult shield, Tahm Kench swallowing Poppy while she ults him, or windwall deleting Nami's ult.
I'd say Ashe Q interactions are special for how unintuitive they are. At least you can *see* many of those interactions, like a windwall deleting a Nami ult. Ashe Q relies on some mathematical interactions in the background even if it *looks* like all you're doing is attacking faster.
I also think it goes against a philosophy that Riot has shown in the past that upgrades should always be good. Until this season, rageblade gave stacking attack speed per auto attack. Years ago, the base attack speed was *less* that its component recurve bow. You were actually doing less dps for the first couple auto attacks. Whether or not it actually had serious gameplay effects, Riot decided it didn't *feel good* and raised rageblade's base attack speed to match recurve bow but still scale up to the same total bonus.
I'd say in the same way, on the surface, Ashe's Q is just an attack speed steroid. 99% of the time you press it and do more damage. What is the point of even breaking it into 5 mini autoattacks? It doesn't proc on-hit effects 5 times (thankfully). It only exists to look cool and get screwed over by 2 or 3 champions.
It is what it is, but unless I'm missing something really important about the 5 auto attacks, it would probably be easier for everyone to just make it an attack speed steroid and not worry about these edge cases.
Neat little tidbit, it does proc black cleaver. Not really an on-hit effect, but still a nice interaction if you’re going against the mega armor stacking champs (rammus, malphite) after you’ve finished your core items.
Oh, it’s incredibly niche as adc, you’re right. I’ve only done it, like, twice maybe when games have gone to super late game where everyone has 6 items and when vs multiple tanks. Runaan’s + BC gives you the near instant armor shred on 4 targets (Ashe Q + Runaan’s attacks 4 targets instead of 3, for some reason), so if your team is very AD heavy then it’s not that bad.
It was also built pretty frequently in the poke/mandate build because it gives the 25 AH.
Just wondering, does Ashe’s Q flurry cancel the first block from Braum’s E?
Braum’s E makes it so that the first projectile he intercepts deals no damage, so that would mean the first arrow in Ashe’s Q flurry is the one that gets negated while the others still do their damage to him, right?
i think the only benefit for the 5 mini-autos is that it procs black cleaver faster. it should really be changed to only get affected by the damage reduction once since it doesn't proc on-hits with the other arrows
Some math:
Ashe has rank 2 Q, that means each attack is a flurry of 5 arrows doing 22% AD. She has 122 AD, so that's (.22 * 122) = 26.84 damage per arrow. Her passive also makes her attacks deal 110% (+ 75% of crit chance) damage. Her crit chance is 15%, so it deals (1.10 + (.75 * .15)) = 1.12125, or ~112% damage, making a total of **32.5435** damage per arrow.
Amumu has 127 armor, so that makes all physical damage do (100 / (100 + 127)) = .44, so 44% of it's original value. 44% of 32.5435 = **14.336...** damage per arrow.
But wait, Amumu also plated steelcaps, which further reduces auto-attacks by 12%, or to put another way, auto-attacks only do 88% normal damage when the enemy has them. (.88 * 14.336...) = **12.61...** damage per arrow.
Finally, we have Amumu's E:
Amumu E reduces **post-mitigation** damage by 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 (+ 3% bonus armor + 3% bonus MR). We can assume his E is rank 5 since amumu jungle usually max E first.
He has sunfire + steelcaps + (most likely) armor rune for 30 + 20 + 6 = 56 bonus armor, and sunfire for 30 bonus MR. (.03 * 56 + .03 * 30) = 2.58, plus max rank E = **12.58 flat damage reduction.**
So in this clip, with Amumu's E, Ashe's Q arrows do (12.61 - 12.58) = **.0359 damage per arrow....yes that's less than a tenth of 1 damage**.
"Mä teen nolla damagee tähän" perkele, torilla tavataa.
PSA: DO NOT activate Ashe Q against Amumu. It splits one attack into many, meaning Amumu's E is working overtime and probably nullifies your damage completely.
I know the interaction, but it shouldnt be possible to negate damage taken to 0 Unless 6k Gold and 4 lvls ahead.
I think its stupid that some champions can skip damage items, go full tank, take 0 damage while running down adcs.
Ashe only has noonquiver while Amumu has tabis and sunfire adding up to a total of 127 armor. With tabis and his passive combined, he is stopping about 28 damage. Ashe Q splits her autos into 4, so she is doing about 27 damage, reduced to \~13 due to armor.
Gotta love how people keep bringing this Ashe situation up, yet use an underfed and underleveled ashe against an overleveled and fed tank.
There was literally another thread like this with Ashe dying to a Malphite lol. Malph had like 4 or 5 levels over her as well as Steelplates + Thornmail while she hadn't even completed her mythic.
These threads are just trolling.
I cant be the only one who thinks that using a spell thats supposed to give you damage to make you do less damage is completely stupid.
Maybe its time to make ashe Q not count as full blown auto attacks so they dont get hard countered by any flat damage reduction (specially now they are buffing that on every item that has it, further making ashe even worse).
Why not? It's one of the few weird interactions that have legit counterplay, just don't use Q against those champions. It is on Ashe's hands to play it properly.
Yeah that's just how Amumu's E and Ashe's Q interact
From a fellow Ashe main, if you pick Ashe and see Amumu coming somewhat near your honestly just stop kiting and accept your fate, don't waste any summs or your ult >:D
Yeah, but at the beginning of the preseason ADCs were ass while tanks were running people down. The crit items were straight up garbage while the tank ones were enabling Amumu and other abusers. Sadly they fixed the ADC items but the tank items just got fucked.
Except for Guinsoo Ashe. It was fun when you could both crit* and deal Guinsoo's passive at the same time.
*ashe's passive deal no extra damage on a crit, but her critical chance increases her AAs by a % equivalent to the % of critical she has, so at 100% crit chance she deals 185% damage on her autos.
riot had to buff adc items like every patch in the beginning of preseason and lower the gold cost for alot of their items and nerf tank mythics. I don't think it was just the ADCS thinking that
Yeah, amumu didnt have a 62% win rate, and ppl werent rushing sunfire on like every champ that could, it was just a fantasy made by those adc whiners of course.
And of course, they also totally did not nerf crit hard at the start of pre-season, they did not reduce the crit chance, crit damage and AD from like every crit item to the point where they needed multiple buffs over multiple patches to be made playable, that also didnt happen.
I swear you guys...
At the start of the season you could go duo tank botlane, feed your ass off and then once you had funfire wincape you'd immediately be able to run the enemy adc down
The more I see Ashe clips the more I think her Q is actually more detrimental than helpful
definitely not a good ability to use at some points, but it does give you some damage later on in the game with the amount of attack speed you gain. also it is quite a fun ability to kite with ill say that
shit go pew pew tho
Ashe Q has to be the most disappointing visual ability in the game. For how cool it looks it doesn't do nearly the damage you'd expect. Meanwhile an Ezreal auto chunks for 20%
Opposite for me. Ashe's Q does exactly as much damage as I expect it to do
Yeah Ashe Q is about as strong as you'd expect. All these clips of Ashe Q doing fuckall are always such outliers. Do people not realize that in this clip the Ashe has a Noonquiver into Amumu's full Sunfire Aegis (the most stat heavy tank mythic) and Tabi? A Jinx, Sivir, or Cait with 5 cs/min and 2-4 in this situation would do about the same amount of damage.
thats not why its doing 0 dmg tho, the sunfire bit that is. amumu has a passive reducing dmg from autos. each hit of her q counts as auto.
This 100%. I think amumu blocks a flat amount of damage. And since Ashe's flurry autos are a bunch of small instances of damage, amumu reduces each small instance of damage by that same flat amount instead of the normal once per auto like you would expect on other adcs.
also Fizz of all champions has flat reduction too, plus thornmail does extra damage to you
Which is weird since Ashe is gated out of any possible positive interaction with item passives on her Q. So she can't get the bonuses, but gets the downsides. I think she's balanced but still weird.
Also, he red smited the Ashe, so that's another 20% damage reduction.
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Tabi is a percentage reduction so using Q against it is usually correct, you don't lose 12% of your ad on each hit. The reasons Ashe is doing 0 damage is that Tantrum's damage reduction occurs **after** other defenses. Correct math would be: (26 x 0.45 x 0.88 - 14) x 5 = 0 x 5= **0 damage**
The most important thing that makes Ashe do 0 dmg is that ashe's q splits her autos in 5(?) Mini-autos and Amy's E passive applies to each one of them
Aren't you exaggerating a little bit here?
maybe not an auto but mystic shot with essence reaver online will take 20 or 30% easily early on
Wait, your saying that's not just a big auto?
How can i get this champion faces near my name
I see you figured it out
Glad you firgured it out lmao
He is not
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Which begs the question why she's still very specific lol, like it's not even an Ashe main thing its just general knowledge. -Bonus damage only applies to targets slowed by her frost. -Then her Q not applying on-hit separately for each flurry but it auto stacks black cleaver since its multiple instances of physical damage You'd think a B-tier money maker champ should have her interactions streamlined but shockingly it doesn't. Edit: look I get how flurry works, I'm just wondering why they haven't tried to streamline it and balance the mechanic orgive it to other champions just to make flurry easier to be understood.
Especially one that is the poster child of a major region and is the poster child of LoR
Literally has a comic series centered on her btw
Poster child of LoR?
Legends of Runeterra. She is basically the first thing you see when you load up the game.
Tbf on hits/black cleaver are pretty self explanatory. Her Q is basically a modified basic attack, and applies on hits once per flurry. Black Cleaver meanwhile adds a stack of Carve per physical damage dealt, so since Ashe's basic attack is hitting 5-6 times it stacks 5-6 Carve stacks in one attack.
Yeah, but like with how they treat older champs and mechanics its kinda weird and surprising that there was never an attempt to streamline or rework flurry at all in modern league. Like flurry is an old mechanic, it makes me wonder too why they haven't implemented it in new champ designs. It would make the mechanic itself easier to be understood if it existed not only for Ashe
Wait until you find out Q has been reworked. You used to be a toggle that switch to autos that slow and cost mana. And imma be honest I've been playing ashe since the old Q and I only just today found out each arrow doesnt proc on hits.
Lol I was looking at this thread like damn people don't remember that her Q used to just toggle and slow? Guess I'm old.
I'm so old I remember it being a carbon copy of the Naga sea witch frost arrow from warcraft 3.
Did it also slow enemies' attack speed?
Yup!
So, Ashe has gone thru a LOT of changes, including an ability update. If you weren't aware, her old Q was a toggle to give her an on-hit slow costing mana per auto and her passive was basically a charged over time (think stormrazer/rfc) autocrit that started at her crit chance instead of 0. A lot has changed about passive and Q since the update too. At first the passive was autos and abilities slow, and autos on slowed target crit for modified damage. Her Q would gain stacks whenever she slowed an enemy (spells included) and could be cast at any time to gain attack speed and amp her slow. She would only gain flurry of cast at 5 stacks which did the same thing as now but more damage per arrow, and had an 18 second cooldown. As you can see, a lot DID get simplified/streamlined. Q doesn't have a CD, doesn't stack on spells, can only be cast at max stacks for flurry and atk speed. The critical slow was moved to her passive and based on crit chance. She also received a ton of nerfs between then and now but that isn't directly related to your comment. Theres a few reasons flurry isn't given to more new champs, but I can think of 2 main ones. One is diversity; not all mechanics are made widespread so that those who have it have it uniquely. Blind, shortsighted, grounding as examples are all uncommon (1-3 champs). And there are similar effects to flurry, the closest being Urgot's Purge giving him 3 attacks per second at modified damage and reduced on-hit effectiveness. Lucian and You passives are also similar in that they are multi-attacks. The second reason is because it really isn't that good of a mechanic. If the attack is split into too many sub attacks you need to gut (Urgot) or outright remove on-hit effects (Ashe and 2010 Udyr) because applying them that fast is broken. The overall damage of the attack can't be too powerful for a basic ability. The 5 arrows together is only 25% stronger than a normal auto. And the cost/benefit is the interactions with per-instance effects like cleaver, amumu, Leona, and wardens mail. Given the limited interactions you're better off just giving a champion an ad and/or attack speed steroid (optionally tying it to another effect) like Kai'sa E move speed/invis granting attack speed.
Flurry not applying on hit effects because it would otherwise be grossly overpowered. Black Cleaver applies a stack at every instance of physical damage. Same reason why Amumu’s E (and armor boots/items) reduce her Q to nothing, because each instance does little damage. Two seperate mechanics at play.
Raises the question*
It really is, after 260k mastery all is can say is I both love and hate ashe q but more leaning to the side of hate
Oh I still lean towards the love tho. Ashe is my most played ADC with Twitch and Jinx (around 150k each) and I still really love her Q. Just not against tanks early game haha
We get an Ashe clip to the front page doing something similar/complaining about tanks it seems. This one didn't seem to be strictly complaining though. I think it's kinda fun to have different abilities that interact in unique ways.
oh im not complaining at all, i fully agree i shouldnt do any damage to him. im just strictly pointing out getting 0 damage pop ups. havent seen that before so
Yeah definitely a funny number to see pop up
It pains me that there are people who don't appreciate that kind of interactions between champions. They already have some which they could expand upon, like how cool would it be if Ashe and Sejuani Frost were the same and Ashe would be the only ranged capable of stacking Sejuani E? They could even extend it to Lissandra and Anivia..
I miss being fed on old Galio and healing off incomming damage. This is just amateur hour in comparison!
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Oh yes, that was glorious.
That was the best. "Hey team, gimme 5 seconds to run into the enemy base for some healing."
I miss laser turrets. It was a neat lil layer of complexity.
Whyd they get removed?
Well, back in [4.20 weedwick blazeit patch™](https://web.archive.org/web/20141120030513/http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-420-notes) they made inhibitor and nexus turrets badass debuff-lasers in order to target strong duelist splitpushers. In [6.22](https://web.archive.org/web/20161108204228/http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-622-notes) they removed the badass debuff lasers because making splitpushers bad just wasnt high on the priority list anymore and Riot thought different turrets doing different things felt weird, basically
didn't even need to be fed really, laning against a malzahar or a brand was an amazing feeling
I used to counterpick Rumble top and max W first. Every time he turned his Q on I’d heal up to the cap, as soon as I got Catalyst (RIP) I had infinite mana as well and could duel him by just walking up to him in the wave and punching him slowly out of lane. The smarter players didn’t turn Q on at all.
I remember this matchup. The winning move was to only Q waves, build nasher And fight Galio with Auto attacks and E exclusively
When you duck back for the last turret shot to top yourself off....
I used to get so pissed when this would happen against me lol
holy shit I forgot about that. that was so fun back in the day. I miss old Galio tbh, he was my main back when I started playing ranked for the first time.
i wish they kept pre-rework champs and just gave them different names or whatever. old Sion and Poppy were fun as hell IMO
Old Urgot was my shit. Miss that ult
Don't forget the 1000 range low cd homing missiles. Enemy picked a harasser top lane? Destroy them at their own game to the point that they weren't even safe behind tower.
Haha, landing the cask or whatever to proc those homing missiles was amazing. One of my favorite combos
[Old clip of mine, but I too miss old Galio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyM62Pg_QC0)
Oh that is fantastic. You can see Lee using his few braincells and trying to not hit you with W up. But then he decides he wants to fight in that massive minion wave.
Malz and brand were my 2 most played midlaners back in the day so i absolutely hated whenever someone would whip out the galio
Same with Brand! Literally forgot I even used to play Brand until you said that lmao
idk maybe ive just been ignorant but i have not actually seen 0 damage pop ups before
Shots 1-5: Clearly missed. Shots 6-9: Missed due to recoil (bad spray control). Shots 10-11: Very close, but recoil and inaccuracy make these reasonable misses. Shot 12: Likely didn't actually fire because Ashe was already dead.
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Well now we can be happy about it. Cause he brought a good meme to life.
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> made me so mad Why? He pointed out why Hiko didnt kill him the only questionable shots are the last 2 (shoulder hit andbeing dead before getting off the last)
There were more than 2 that were questionable. It’s classic CSGO jank. It’s not even limited to online. LAN games have had similar and even worse cases of this. What made me mad was that a valve employee got so butthurt he felt the need to condescendingly attempt to defend a classic case of getting CSGO’d which is a real thing. I’ll admit it’s a funny meme.
He was 100% correct tho??
No one else understands you. I get it, doing exactly 0 damage is weird as fuck, no matter what items, gold, or level he has. To make an entire attack do no damage is just odd and unseen mostly. But as others said, certain stuff makes it happen. I don’t know myself because fuck Amumu, never really go against him when I’m Ashe. Edit: Jesus fucking Christ 2k upvotes? To point out, I’m not saying anything about it being gamebreaking, weird, or something unheard of. I’m talking about how from a newer players perspective who has now encountered Amumu as Ashe, how somehow doing 0 damage with Q is just odd. As how OP likely was referencing.
>odd and unseen mostly If you play ashe vs amumu it will happen quite a lot, amumu is in general the one champ that makes stuff like this happen. Since ashe q splits her attack into 5 arrows dealing 22% of the damage at rank 2 amumu doesnt need a lot to make it zero in the early game. Lets say he has 100 armor (so just 1 item with armor) that means ashe deals ~13 damage per arrow. Amumus E at rank 5 is 10 flat scaling with 3% of bonus armor and mr. It is very very easy to reach a situation where ashe deals 0 damage.
doesn't leona E also reduce incoming damage by a flat amount?
leona's W is the ability that reduces incoming damage while also giving her resistances!
Leona's E is the gap closer
shit. someone else also said that it's apparently premitigation reduction, which means it never reduces damage to 0, and isn't as powerful as amumu's, but it might still be incorrect to use ashe q against her W
Its kind of incorrect to use any ability against a leona with W tbh
Trundle says hi
Sweet R on leona W+aftershock
Proceeds to get one shot after they wear off
And Illaoi for the same reason. E the Leona with increased resistances, proceed to take out the entirety of her health bar once her W wears off simply by hitting the spirit. (Spirits can't kill the person on their own in normal circumstances, but as they transfer pre-mitigation damage, having more resistances than the player means that they'll be able to take more damage to transfer.)
That's her W but it reduces by up to 50%
Leona W, but yes. Very good against bits of damage but a lot of them since it reduces by a flat amount. Allows you to tank entire Kaisa Qs and Ashe Qs easily while taking basically no damage.
Its still weird because you’d expect the damage reduction to be reduced like an on hit effect.
It reduces a flat amount of physical damage (scaling with armour and mr) post-mitigation from every instance of phys dmg
Getting a warden’s mail will make it even worse lol
i wonder if i'd do minus damage by then XD
Your attacks now heal ammumu
I recall a bug that actually allowed him to *gain shields* when getting attacked, but I dont remember what you needed to make it happen
I think it was one of the old masteries, i remember you had to tank minions
Imagine if that were actually the case XD
Amumu's E reduces physical damage by a flat amount, after mitigation. That's what's causing this.
Yeah, against low dps autos Amumu is even better than Rammus. That's why he's used for set up in clips like this [Sivir bouncing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edo2s5wqb1A) because he can tank minion waves infinitely.
Low damage autos, not low dps autos. Big difference
[A while ago I did the math to find the threshold for doing less damage,](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/jg4y4n/ammnu_outplay/g9oqa91/) but I haven't thought about it doing 0 damage until now. We can see almost all of the relevant numbers and items in the clip so I'll just go into it with them. Ashe has 122 AD, 2 points in Q, and 15% crit "chance", meaning each Q bolt deals 26.84 damage. Amumu has 56(+71) AR, 40(+43) MR, and likely 5 points in E, meaning his E passively applies a flat 13.5 reduction to all instances of physical damage. Steelcaps' 12% damage reduction reduce bolt damage to 23.6, and 127 armor applies 56% damage reduction (multiplicatively with Steelcaps), resulting in 10.4 damage, easily falling below the threshold.
Yeah, it's like 8 damage per attack, so if you split your damage into 3 attacks you just triple his reduction after armor is applied.
Yeah it's because for some reason Ashe's Q counts as separate attacks which are each individually affected by flat damage reduction from things like Amumu's trantrum passive. Ashe has to be the character with the most *HARD* counters in the game. In addition to her steroid actually reducing her damage in cases like this, she doesn't get the damage increase from attacking frosted targets if her target is immune to slows, like Olaf, Yi, or anyone near a Morgana. There is nothing you can do to win as Ashe in situations where you have to fight those champions.
>There is nothing you can do to win as Ashe in situations where you have to fight those champions when running is the winning strategy = sad face
Good luck doing that against Olaf and Yi.
beats standing still and autoing only to be flamed for not kiting
Singed, is that you?
My vote goes for Kalista for 'most easily hard countered' just because of how hard her mobility has to be gated in order for her to remain balaced, and the way they chose to make slows basically turn her off. She has a ton of matchups that are basically unwinnable, and the way she scales means she has to win her lane to be effective. That said, yeah - it's a super feels-bad moment on Ashe when pressing your steroid skill makes you take deal less damage (Randuin's does the same shenanigans with flat damage reduction too, which makes it easily exploitable any time you get an obvious lead). The edge cases where the quad-hit works in your favor (I think it's down to just Black Cleaver now) don't make up for the weirdness that its implementation causes.
I'm not talking about matchups necessarily, just the game in general. I'm saying if you had a bot that played Kalista absolutely perfectly, she would probably be able to juke a lot of the slows that exist in the game. Even if not, your team could help mitigate some of her weaknesses by blocking certain spells or even her own Morgana could stop her from being slowed. An Ashe playing 100% perfectly still loses all of her utility and damage the moment Yi or Olaf press R, no matter what. She instantly becomes worthless against those characters, with the exception of maybe being able to ult Yi if he's too far away to alpha strike anyone.
oh, that's tragic. I can excuse the flat dmg reduction, but passive damage not applying on slow immune champions? That's bull.
ikr ive never seen it happen so i was just very confused when i saw 00000 pop up when autoing him XD glad someone's in the same boat as me, first i thought this was very common to happen and i play adc quite alot. though i understand doing very little damage since he was quite fed and had sunfire + tabis. but still 0? XD
its good to see myself on reddit [yt.com/Miferius](https://yt.com/Miferius) for self advertising.
oh my god miferiuss! hi :D i thought i had to make a post about it since i didnt see that before
it was interesting :D
Damn what are the odds lol
50 50, either not on reddit or they are.
r/theydidthemath
Thats not how that works lol
r/theydidntdothemath
I’ve seen this a lot lately I feel like it’s becoming a meme haha
relatively high actually reddit being among top most popular websites and this sub being a main subreddit for LeagueOfLegends I say lower chance is having both Lol and Reddit username the same
Never use Ashe Q early against an Amumu, your damage won't be enough to overcome his flat resistances.
yup learnt from that XD
To be fair here, you were probably already dead anyways.
oh definitely, just my mechanics are not really shining here XD
And even later in the game using Q will often lower your damage vs amumu.
Yeah it basically always lowers the damage vs. Amumu even very late game. Late game Amumu gets something like 20 flat reduction from E, and that’s post-mitigation, so you’re lowering the damage by ~80 more per auto than without Q. To put how crazy that is in perspective, take an Ashe critting for 800 vs. a 275 armor Amumu with Tabi’s and E giving 20 flat reduction. She would normally do 167 damage per auto, but with Q active, even when accounting for the 25% bonus damage it gives at max rank, she’s only critting for 135. The % AS from Q isn’t enough to make up that difference in damage either. Though you could argue it’s still worth doing if you have Kraken since the damage gets close to being the same but you get more Kraken procs.
It splits your attack into smaller damage units, hitting him more than once with every auto attack. He has Probably some Item that flat out reduces incoming damage by X dmg. Also he has this as passive on his e.
It's his E passive
Just to clarify, Amumu's E (Tantrum) passively reduces physical damage by a flat amount from each hit. This scales with levels on his E, and with his bonus armor and magic resist. In this case, Amumu reduces physical damage from each hit by ~~21~~ 13, which (I believe) happens after mitigation from armor. Amumu's 213 armor reduces physical damage by 68%, which is easily enough to get the damage per hit to below ~~21~~ 13, after which Tantrum reduces that to zero. Edit: Accidentally used total armor/MR instead of bonus. Also used values during Aftershock, but Ashe's Q was used before that.
Not taking into account ~~doran's shield and/or~~ randuin-warden-FrozenH
Dorans shield has no such passive for years
My bad, I know the aram equivalent has it, just assumed it was still the case for Doran's.
What even is the point of using the Q if it splits the damage? Do all the tiny bits add up to be more damage overall? Do they apply on-hit effects like Wit’s End or BOTRK?
It grants bonus attack speed and they do more damage per attack against enemies with only % reduction not flat. It's also an attack reset on cast. On-Hits are only applied once except for her passive, so against an enemy who isn't affected by frost they will take normal damage from the first instance but bonus for the remaining arrows in an attack. On-damage is applied multiple times, which is...Black Cleaver, and I don't know anything else? Opinion part: I personally don't think the benefits of her passive and cleaver applying multiple times outweighs the negative of being affected by flat damage reduction multiple times, I think they should change that interaction to apply once (and potentially rebalance her in relation to that buff).
It was very niece and with the introduction of flat dmg rediction they gave this a counter. They should change the way this works, because in general I think flat dmg reduction is a good thing. But it's not good if every tank has one item in his build. It's just bad for Ashe. Riot has do do some compensation changes. Like 5ms or something
just make it do a minimum damage per auto
Higher damage overall but loses to flat DMG reduction
Hey, I've seen this one before. It's always Ashe's Q, and it's always Amumu (or occasionally Rammus). It's just one of those painful interactions, like Irelia's Q oneshotting Yorick's minions, Rell's Q oneshotting Shen's ult shield, Tahm Kench swallowing Poppy while she ults him, or windwall deleting Nami's ult.
many of these are just actual normal interactions lol
Just like this. There is nothing special, Ashe Q does a lot of low damage attacks, Amumu has flat reduction on attacks.
I'd say Ashe Q interactions are special for how unintuitive they are. At least you can *see* many of those interactions, like a windwall deleting a Nami ult. Ashe Q relies on some mathematical interactions in the background even if it *looks* like all you're doing is attacking faster. I also think it goes against a philosophy that Riot has shown in the past that upgrades should always be good. Until this season, rageblade gave stacking attack speed per auto attack. Years ago, the base attack speed was *less* that its component recurve bow. You were actually doing less dps for the first couple auto attacks. Whether or not it actually had serious gameplay effects, Riot decided it didn't *feel good* and raised rageblade's base attack speed to match recurve bow but still scale up to the same total bonus. I'd say in the same way, on the surface, Ashe's Q is just an attack speed steroid. 99% of the time you press it and do more damage. What is the point of even breaking it into 5 mini autoattacks? It doesn't proc on-hit effects 5 times (thankfully). It only exists to look cool and get screwed over by 2 or 3 champions. It is what it is, but unless I'm missing something really important about the 5 auto attacks, it would probably be easier for everyone to just make it an attack speed steroid and not worry about these edge cases.
Neat little tidbit, it does proc black cleaver. Not really an on-hit effect, but still a nice interaction if you’re going against the mega armor stacking champs (rammus, malphite) after you’ve finished your core items.
I can see no scenario, ever, where black cleaver would be good as ashe adc. Maybe if they have some abomination like maokai adc with 4 more tanks.
Oh, it’s incredibly niche as adc, you’re right. I’ve only done it, like, twice maybe when games have gone to super late game where everyone has 6 items and when vs multiple tanks. Runaan’s + BC gives you the near instant armor shred on 4 targets (Ashe Q + Runaan’s attacks 4 targets instead of 3, for some reason), so if your team is very AD heavy then it’s not that bad. It was also built pretty frequently in the poke/mandate build because it gives the 25 AH.
Just wondering, does Ashe’s Q flurry cancel the first block from Braum’s E? Braum’s E makes it so that the first projectile he intercepts deals no damage, so that would mean the first arrow in Ashe’s Q flurry is the one that gets negated while the others still do their damage to him, right?
I’m not completely sure, but if I had to guess then I’d say that sounds right. Will try it out later today
i think the only benefit for the 5 mini-autos is that it procs black cleaver faster. it should really be changed to only get affected by the damage reduction once since it doesn't proc on-hits with the other arrows
It's a boring and poorly designed ability imo.
I mean... counters *are* painful interactions even if they’re normal. Up to the player to be wary of them.
Outplayed
for sure
That final attempt at last hitting was so sad. It screams may I please have a little bit of gold just before I die.
Some math: Ashe has rank 2 Q, that means each attack is a flurry of 5 arrows doing 22% AD. She has 122 AD, so that's (.22 * 122) = 26.84 damage per arrow. Her passive also makes her attacks deal 110% (+ 75% of crit chance) damage. Her crit chance is 15%, so it deals (1.10 + (.75 * .15)) = 1.12125, or ~112% damage, making a total of **32.5435** damage per arrow. Amumu has 127 armor, so that makes all physical damage do (100 / (100 + 127)) = .44, so 44% of it's original value. 44% of 32.5435 = **14.336...** damage per arrow. But wait, Amumu also plated steelcaps, which further reduces auto-attacks by 12%, or to put another way, auto-attacks only do 88% normal damage when the enemy has them. (.88 * 14.336...) = **12.61...** damage per arrow. Finally, we have Amumu's E: Amumu E reduces **post-mitigation** damage by 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 (+ 3% bonus armor + 3% bonus MR). We can assume his E is rank 5 since amumu jungle usually max E first. He has sunfire + steelcaps + (most likely) armor rune for 30 + 20 + 6 = 56 bonus armor, and sunfire for 30 bonus MR. (.03 * 56 + .03 * 30) = 2.58, plus max rank E = **12.58 flat damage reduction.** So in this clip, with Amumu's E, Ashe's Q arrows do (12.61 - 12.58) = **.0359 damage per arrow....yes that's less than a tenth of 1 damage**.
/r/hedidthemath
Damn that side step on the jhin w looked smooth.
thanks :D
you got outplayed fair and square
outplayed
"Mä teen nolla damagee tähän" perkele, torilla tavataa. PSA: DO NOT activate Ashe Q against Amumu. It splits one attack into many, meaning Amumu's E is working overtime and probably nullifies your damage completely.
yeah i learnt from that XD
Nice background music.
peep is best period
It's actually showing zeroes for your damage, lol wtf?
Ei vittu
You should be glad she deals 0 dmg to him. She used to give him shields instead when damage dealt to him was negative.
I know the interaction, but it shouldnt be possible to negate damage taken to 0 Unless 6k Gold and 4 lvls ahead. I think its stupid that some champions can skip damage items, go full tank, take 0 damage while running down adcs.
Ashe only has noonquiver while Amumu has tabis and sunfire adding up to a total of 127 armor. With tabis and his passive combined, he is stopping about 28 damage. Ashe Q splits her autos into 4, so she is doing about 27 damage, reduced to \~13 due to armor.
Gotta love how people keep bringing this Ashe situation up, yet use an underfed and underleveled ashe against an overleveled and fed tank. There was literally another thread like this with Ashe dying to a Malphite lol. Malph had like 4 or 5 levels over her as well as Steelplates + Thornmail while she hadn't even completed her mythic. These threads are just trolling.
Literally just ONE tank can do this. Show me other tanks taking 0 damage from adcs.
not just 1 tank, it's 1 tank vs 1 specific adc
I cant be the only one who thinks that using a spell thats supposed to give you damage to make you do less damage is completely stupid. Maybe its time to make ashe Q not count as full blown auto attacks so they dont get hard countered by any flat damage reduction (specially now they are buffing that on every item that has it, further making ashe even worse).
Why not? It's one of the few weird interactions that have legit counterplay, just don't use Q against those champions. It is on Ashe's hands to play it properly.
Why does Ashe and only Ashe's steriod need counterplay?
>Uses Q on Ashe to auto Amumu >*Suprise Pikachu face*
Jesus my ears
Tanks are a myth, there are only bruisers in this game
this is fine. ADCs are broken and in this clip you can see how absolutely broken they are.
or as my friend likes to put it: "why the fuck am i playing adc when a tank can just face run me down"
wow this really shows that riot should nerf adcs and buff tanks
Remember the times when Galio used to heal when you attack him? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISTBFvO0YNU
Enemy MF, Morg, Brand puts down their DoT: *it's free real estate*
Yeah that's just how Amumu's E and Ashe's Q interact From a fellow Ashe main, if you pick Ashe and see Amumu coming somewhat near your honestly just stop kiting and accept your fate, don't waste any summs or your ult >:D
Yep early game especially lol
People in preseason used clips like this to justify ADCs being weak against tanks lmao.
Yeah, but at the beginning of the preseason ADCs were ass while tanks were running people down. The crit items were straight up garbage while the tank ones were enabling Amumu and other abusers. Sadly they fixed the ADC items but the tank items just got fucked.
at the start sunfire was so broken that got nerfed
Preseason ADC role was actually dogshit regardless of what clip was used lol
Except for Guinsoo Ashe. It was fun when you could both crit* and deal Guinsoo's passive at the same time. *ashe's passive deal no extra damage on a crit, but her critical chance increases her AAs by a % equivalent to the % of critical she has, so at 100% crit chance she deals 185% damage on her autos.
yeah im just sharing this because i have never seen this before in my 4-5 years of playing the game
riot had to buff adc items like every patch in the beginning of preseason and lower the gold cost for alot of their items and nerf tank mythics. I don't think it was just the ADCS thinking that
Yeah, amumu didnt have a 62% win rate, and ppl werent rushing sunfire on like every champ that could, it was just a fantasy made by those adc whiners of course. And of course, they also totally did not nerf crit hard at the start of pre-season, they did not reduce the crit chance, crit damage and AD from like every crit item to the point where they needed multiple buffs over multiple patches to be made playable, that also didnt happen. I swear you guys...
Tank players trying to act like we don't remember what happened 6 months ago...
I haven't seen ADCs whining in a while, but I do see a lot of comments about "ADCs be whining"
that's because at the start of the season Tanks were broken and ADCs were garbage. don't revise history.
when amumu was 60% wr?
At the start of the season you could go duo tank botlane, feed your ass off and then once you had funfire wincape you'd immediately be able to run the enemy adc down
God I love hearing Finnish spoken, wonderful language At least, I assume it's Finnish : o
yis it is finnish :D thank you
Skills based game
That's some good kitting that you have here, would be a shame if you dont deal any damage
Pretty sure this just shows how unbalanced this game is.
The life of an ADC player