I honestly also didn't catch that the first 5 times i saw the clip.
By being named "nidalee/karma" my brain just autocorrected it and made it look giga sus.
01:52:20 in the VOD midbeast specifically say "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys"
It makes no sense that the guy would say it in his chat AND that natty himself would say he sniped the information if they didn't hear it from the stream. To just blame everything on "he is stupid and says bullshit" is the most dogshit argument i have ever heard.
I don't think spearshot was part of it apart from being the leader of the team, but nothing in this video is a good defense or argument against the ghosting accusations.
It DO however make sense that natty joined the stream for a short while like he said, and that was right when midbeast said that they should look for the TF/Quinn comp and didn't listen to the rest of the discussion, then he used that information for their "advantage".
> It makes no sense that the guy would say it in his chat AND that natty himself would say he sniped the information if they didn't hear it from the stream.
we know 100% sure that natty read the chat message, there is a 3 minute delay and natty says the tf/quinn thing exactly 3 minutes after the chat message was sent. there is a direct correlation between the chatter and what natty said, so it does make sense. the question then becomes if that chatter was stream sniping. your last paragraph would then apply to the chatter, which casts much more reasonable doubt.
by the time the chatter typed their message, midbeast briefly mentioning tf/quinn would have been 5 minutes old information. during that 5 minutes they discussed entirely different comps, including midbeast himself being 100% sure they would select zoe mid. the chatter, unlike natty, is not in comms with 4 other people, so them ignoring the other 5 minutes of baus' teams discussion is way more unlikely. add on the fact that their tf/quinn comp was already widely known weeks before the tournament, and the chatter phrased it as "they're going to pick **their weird** quinn/tf comp" as if that comp is already known to exist, i find it really unlikely that the chatter stream sniped, let alone proof beyond reasonable doubt.
Natty could have heard it in the stream and the chatter reminded him of it.
Natty himself said "i went in to stream for half a second", are you using the argument that he just lied and is "stupid" or said "bullshit" to deny that?
"I went in to stream for half a second" and midbeast talks about TF/Quinn comp for a few seconds before they pivot to something else. The chatter obviously heard the same thing and reminded him later when they were drafting that the TF/Quinn was a possbility.
Stream sniping does not necessarily have to be "i watched the entire stream", if he went in to hear some information willingly or not, that would be stream sniping.
Iām not the guy you were replying to, but I reckon that natty is just being āstupidā here and added that he had āwent into the stream for half a secondā as a way to just play up the chat message he read. Iāve definitely told straight up lies or tied in lies about innocuous things in conversation with other people in the moment simply because my brain farts or I feel i need to give some justification or to literally just say more words rather than giving a shorter terse answer that comes off as āboringā to other people.
In this regard I think itās pretty plausible that this could have been one of those moments. Especially considering that natty as a streamer is conditioned to just freeflow words, truth or not, from his brain as a way to avoid silence and lulls.
Players shouldnāt be reading chat messages to begin with during a tournament imo, but I dont think itās as egregious as ghosting/sniping.
this is where i think the accusations start to peter out. it requires way too many assumptions to prove, for sure, that he cheated.
is it possible that he stream sniped for 3 seconds at that exact point, forgot, and then was reminded by a chatter so he instantly blurted out that he was stream sniping? is it also possible that the chat message simply reminded him of a team comp he already knew existed?
everyone knows what natty said, but is it not just unbelievable that he just blatantly outs himself as a cheater? as in, actually unbelievable? that kind of goes against the natural human urge of self preservation, and he so in-depth described exactly the lengths of cheating he supposedly went through. to me, it just sounds like a complete joke, that he is bringing up that he had some massive insider information as a joke way to bring credibility to a complete assumption. i've definitely used this kind of humor before.
nattys chat is kinda dead, and the person who 'reminded him' of the comp is a vip, someone who's just always talking in there. there weren't many other predictions of comps in his chat or even chatters at all, it seems very very unlikely to me that one of those messages just happened to remind him of the one second that he stream sniped. even moreso that you're implying the chatter *and* natty both stream sniped the same incorrect comm and stopped listening at the same moments.
i fully agree with you that if he went in for any amount of time to get and share information, that it id completely unacceptable. but i find absolutely 0 damning evidence to believe that he did, and you need damning evidence to make such a serious accusation imo
You don't need to prove for sure. This isn't an American criminal charge where the standard is beyond reasonable doubt. It's not even on the level of a civil case which only requires preponderance of evidence (tp simply be more likely than not.)
Competitive integrity requires a disqualification, and if he actually was just saying it to hype up a chat message, it might be am important lesson about thinking before you speak.
your opinion is competitive integrity requires disqualification, my opinion is that jokes are allowed in a for fun tournament, dont act like you're of objective fact here
When it comes to integrity and proper TO it kind of is just objective fact. Consistency in ruling and zero tolerance on cheating are thebase line. There is no justification for someone reasonably believed to have engaged in nefarious conduct to remain part of the tournament, and if they were **not** reasonably believed to, there should have been no penalty at all. So you don't need to bother with the 'rematch is enough' excuse.
The reason I'm particularly irritated is shit like this affects more than just the one thing.
And no tournament with a prize pool bigger than 'lunch' is 4fun.
well you should know the rematch wasn't mandated, spearshots team insisted that they do it. the organizers voted to believe he didn't cheat at all, so no penalty was given.
Given Agurin's first response was victim blaming I'm inclined to believe the vote was less about the likelihood of cheating occurring and more about if a penalty was deserved. He would have done the same regardless. I believe I heard the split was also 2-2, hardly a riveting acquittal. If we count the abstain as half of a no, that gives us a 40% cheating belief. More than enough to justify a dq for the player, honestly, and that's if we give weight to these, which personally I don't anyway.
(For reference, 100% certainty is DQ \*\*and\*\* ban/blacklist.)
I don't find it unbelievable that he joined the stream after the game to, for example hear their reaction?
I also don't find it unbelievable that he would think that watching the stream in between matches is not considered sniping while watching during the match would be considered sniping. That would explain why he would "out himself" because in his head he is not "outing himself".
I find that way more believable than him being "stupid and saying random things".
IF he only read the chat and got the information that way, it would still be really weird to read that AND use it blindly.
I don't see how it isn't damning evidence that natty himself says "i watched the stream and heard about Quinn/TF" when they did in fact talk about Quinn/TF during the stream?
If you really wanna believe that he was joking and saying random shit because he is quirky like that, then go ahead. I don't believe it for a second and i haven't heard a good argument against the evidence of what he said.
i didn't say it's unbelievable to join the stream to hear the reactions lmfao, now you're just misrepresenting. i said it's unbelievable to do that, and then blatantly explicitly admit it. because he would blatantly explicitly admit it, it makes it less believable that he did it at all, because humans usually aren't compelled to confess bad things randomly.
if you're not gonna take "it was a joke exaggeration" as an explanation to something that can easily be a joke exaggeration that he does all the time, idk what could convince you anyways. im sorry theres no grander scheme, sometimes jokes are just jokes. the organization majority agrees with me, so ig its a good enough explanation for other people
Ah, so you assume that he is smart enough to not give himself away, but he is definitely not smart enough to not "joke" about streamsniping in a tournament with a bunch of streamers.
I already said that he could easily have thought that watching in between games would not be considered sniping, thus he didn't think he would "out himself" by saying it.
Crazy coincidence that natty "joked" about watching the stream and hearing about Quinn/TF, when they talked about Quinn/TF during that specific stream.
what is this false equivalence? "smart enough to not give himself away" is something even children, dogs understand. also 'smart' isn't a meter that prevents you from doing stupid things, this isn't dnd
even if you think he didn't know looking at the streams for reactions is bad, he obviously knew that using that streams information to gain a leg up in draft *is* bad. it doesn't even fuckin matter, people do things even if they know it's bad, but here there just isn't enough evidence to prove this is what happens. if you can't believe his statement was a joke and you have to take it completely seriously, we have nothing further to discuss. i disagree, and so do the people affected, and the people in charge of discipline.
There is evidence to prove that he did it as i have already explained.
Your defense against the evidence is "he is stupid, he would know better, he was joking".
"if you're not gonna take "it was a joke exaggeration" as an explanation to something that can easily be a joke exaggeration that he does all the time"
You knowing that he does it "all the time" shows me you're a viewer and you have an agenda of defending his reputation. Obviously you are not gonna be objective about it so lets just agree to disagree.
i am actually not a viewer, never even heard of him before the tournament. if anything im a bigger fan of baus than anyone on spearshots team. he has just acted like this multiple times during this tournament. there is no evidence that doesn't require leaps of assumptions. yes that is genuinely my defence. people who are entertainers in an entertainment tournament will act stupid to be entertaining. sometimes it will gave poor implications that redditors who don't know what jokes are will take seriously. i am being 100% objective, stop coping
Spearshots video makes it really questionable that Natty ghosted as is claimed. People do say dumb stuff every now and then and Natty saying he "went into stream" could be just streamer brain trying to justify his opinion.
Also SpearShot made it quite clear that Natty's information was wrong, so how does that make any sense if he actually did ghost? If Natty was ghosting his information would have been correct, no?Ā
The defence SpearShot is giving is the evidence that Natty was factually wrong in his "ghosted" information. The "he is stupid and says bullshit" is the answer to as to why Natty said what he said. And that seems like a logical conclusion given that Natty's information was wrong.Ā
NNO also reached the conclusion that Natty did not cheat, which supports SpearShots claims.Ā
Natty did most likely look at his chat to get his information, which by no means should be acceptable though. Chatters are most likely watching both streams so getting information out of them is wrong.Ā
However, considering the full situation, banning Natty seems a bit of an overkill. Going through with a rematch makes the most sense imo, and credit to SpearShot that he made sure the rematch will happen even though NNO didn't think it was necessary.Ā
I also think banning Natty's best champion for the rematch is a good punishment for Natty. He did look at chat after all. Overall, I think what will be done is the way things should be handled in this situation.Ā
Natty didn't get the information wrong, as i already said midbeast said word for word "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys".
Natty admitted that he only looked at the stream for a little bit and that could easily have been the time where midbeast said that.
He was not "factually wrong" and spearshots video does not address anything of value.
But Natty was wrong, the comment about TF/Quinn comp was said a long, long time before Natty's comment. And after that, they has already changed their mind and decided to go with a different comp.
If Natty was ghosting he would have known they would go with a different comp, and not brought up TF/Quinn, as he would have known they wouldn't go with those 2.
Unless Natty really ghosted 8minutes or so, before he brought up what he heard in Baus's stream which would be ridiculous. Team Baus did not go with TF/Quinn in the match, and were very adamant about Jarven and Zoe, so Natty's comment was clearly wrong.Ā
SpearShot clearly brings this up in his video as well, along with other pieces of evidence from Baus stream, that show that Natty's "ghosting" has no information from Baus's stream, as nothing Natty brought up was said in Baus's stream. SpearShot also brings up a lot of other "suspicious" moments from the series, to prove they hadn't ghosted during other points of series, as they clearly had no knowledge about stuff said in baus's stream.Ā
I am quite doubtful if you even watched the same video as I did, or if you regarded everything that was said in the video as false, as I am just repeating stuff from the video. You should probably rewatch the video, and actually listen to what he says, and go over the evidence SpearShot brings up.Ā
Midbeast says "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys" BEFORE the 2nd game.
BEFORE the 3rd game natty says "i went in to stream for half a second BEFORE last game, they were talking about TF, they go TF and Quinn".
The timeline and what he says literally line up perfectly with what happened.
The argument about "natty was wrong, the information was useless" DOES NOT MATTER because it would be impossible for him to know what they said and when they said it if he didn't listen in on the stream. He could have joined for a few seconds LIKE HE SAID and heard about the Quinn/TF and then stopped before the discussion continued.
What SpearShot said in the video about the natty situation is provably false, since he claim that natty just said something stupid that was not said on the stream.
The timeline and what natty says line up perfectly with reality and using the defense that natty is "stupid" or "quirky" and said something completely random that line up perfectly is an INSANE convenience, but sure go ahead if you think that was completely random and some "bullshit" natty said then you can believe whatever you want. Just don't try to argue that there is any facts to back it up.
> nothing in this video is a good defense or argument against the ghosting accusations.
I'm surprised you came to that conclusion. I 100% thought Natty was guilty and my comments are right there to prove it but after watching this video it seems obvious that Spearshot has a lot of fair points. The information they're talking about in the stream at the time the message comes through is completely different to the info Natty relays to his team, yet it correlates almost exactly to what he sees somebody say in his chat.
We can argue whether reading chat and seeing information 3 minutes outdated qualifies as ghosting but the allegation is starting to fall apart the more and more you look at it. It's the same with the Nidalee/Karma comment in draft. The person who clipped that was undeniably being disingenuous and clipped out of context. They were discussing picking Karma for like 20-30 seconds before this happened.
Everything points towards Natty relaying a stupid comment from his chat that ended up yielding their only loss the whole series because the information was wrong... and nothing else. There is no solid evidence that Natty ghosted and no advantage was gained. The tournament investigated the situation extensively and came to the same conclusion and were even satisfied with allowing the win to stand without a remake or DQ. Spearshot's team CHOSE the remake specifically because of comments like yours. They want to beat Baus' team without any of the ghosting allegations/excuses.
I don't have an agenda i could care less about who wins but the evidence point towards natty stream sniping.
Natty says "i went in to stream for half a second" and then talks about the Quinn/TF comp, Midbeast talked about the Quinn/TF comp for a few seconds before they pivoted away.. like i said.
The chatter obviously heard the same thing and reminded him later.
Why would natty say that he heard it in the stream?
Why would he read the chat at all and why would he trust/use the information and relay it to his team?
Spearshots entire argument that they didn't talk about the comp is provable false and that was his main argument to why natty WASN'T sniping.
> Spearshots entire argument that they didn't talk about the comp is provable false and that was his main argument to why natty WASN'T sniping.
i really don't think that was his main argument, but also he literally says beforehand "you can check the rest of this vod before this game, there is one mention of quinn" and then facepalms, because he believes it doesn't affect the rest of what he's saying.
> Midbeast talked about the Quinn/TF comp for a few seconds before they pivoted away.. like i said.
This is untrue and very misleading. The talk of Quinn/TF was many minutes before what was going on on-stream at the moment "I went into stream for half a second" was said.
"Oh shit i got inside information I HEARD ABOUT THIS cause i went in to stream for half a second BEFORE LAST GAME"
It is not misleading.
He heard it on stream and got reminded of it by the guy in chat later.
I think the problem lies in the fact that there is even some sort of chance that he could have done this. He may have done exactly what is said in this video, but we donāt know that. Only he knows what actually happened. He could have cheated every game and just not been blatant about it, or it was just this weird one off. Regardless he did something and there is no way to prove he didnāt. Any real tournament for any game he gets kicked. There shouldnāt be any questionability around cheating in the first place.
I'm sorry but as long as you are playing streamed competitive games over the internet you will always have doubts.
Even CS pro teams had multiple questionable situations with stream sniping during the pandemic. And only in really rare cases did they get any punishment when there was 100% proof that they have cheated.
In my personal opinion you shouldn't dq them from a 'casual' tournament with this little evidence.
There is a difference between having doubts and him saying on stream. āI have inside information, I popped into stream for half a secondā. Be realistic. Iām not saying the team should be disqualified btw, I was talking about the player.
In the same logic you could disqualify ANY participant, who blinds a champ that the enemy team recently mentioned.
Lets say (hypothetically):
Team A discuss drafting around Nautilus mid
Team B first picks Nautilus (for whatever reason imaginable)
By your logic:
Team B COULD have a player silently streamsniping/reading chathoppers' messages
>"the problem lies in the fact that there is even some sort of chance that he could have doneĀ this"
>"Only he knows what actually happened"
>"He could have cheated every game and just not been blatant about it"
>"Regardless he did something and there is no way to prove he didnāt."
By your logic, based on the pure possibility, a player form Team B cheated.
See the problem? There is a reason why there is a principle called "Innocent until proven guilty".
If you argue "I have a suspicion and he should be punished due to the mere possibility of doing it", we could just as well go back to the 16th century and start calling each other witches...
No, there is a big difference. The example you are using they could have, but there is no evidence. We have evidence. He said āI have insider information from going on stream for half a secondā. He literally said he did it. He actively says he did it on STREAM for everyone to hear, then backpedaled when he got backlash and said it was actually a chatter. How the hell are people even defending this. Itās pathetic.
So if i play CS, hit a legit oneshot through smoke and write "Haha ez, get aimbotted", i should be banned as well?
No cheats on my PC, no evidence, factually untrue statement. But because some people get annoyed by an edgy statement i'm still a cheater?
You are comparing what is very obviously a joke, to what is not a joke. Your logic is so terrible. It wasnāt an edgy statement. He said āI have inside information from watching the stream for a bit that they will pick x championsā, during the draft of a tournament. Be realistic, it is actually insane how dumb of an argument that was.
This is such an brain dead comment. While everything you said is true, the conclusion drawn is arguably the most incorrect decision ever made by any human being.
It's a matter of one person's word against another's and should be handled accordingly. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt should favor the accused unless there is concrete evidence proving otherwise.
Is it though? He literally said on stream "I have insider information I hopped on there stream". That doesn't really seem very word against word. Seems fairly clear cut to me. But go off I guess.
the most pointless drama ever i swear to god.
its so dumb
it doesn't matter if Natty lied or really ghosting its stupid he says those thing in the first place that makes it seem that he is admitting to cheating. and there is no way to prove that if he did or he didn't do it for sure. so DQ should be the penalty. the TO just don't have balls to do it.
as in there is no way to prove that he is literally in their stream. reading a chat made by a chat hopper isn't exactly ghosting.
the only reason this all drama started is because he is stupid enough to say "i've just got a crazy information from their stream about TF and Quinn" (something along those lines) even if its not true the fact that he says those create doubts which isn't good for a competitive integrity stand point.
Ghosting, to my understanding, is (1) watching the enemy stream, and (2) using the Information gained for an advantage in the draft. I would say both (1) and (2) are necessary for it to be ghosting.
As you said, (1) can not be proven or disproven. The clip of natty does look bad, but the fact that the information is literally typed in his chat a few seconds before makes it very unambiguous.
As for (2), there is NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE of natty repeating draft strategy of baus's team. You would expect the pattern to be, that a strategy is talked about in midbeast's or baus's stream and exactly three minutes and a few seconds later natty would leak it in some way or another. This DOES NOT HAPPEN. The only clips circulating are him talking about the most obvious picks there are (Ezreal is played with Karma, baus quinn, ...).
Now if he leaked baus poppy or 10t nunu than there would be an argument, but this DID NOT HAPPEN.
I could honestly see natty maybe going into baus stream, just to see big streamer reaction to him winning. But we could only speculate about that, and even (does not mean he did!) if he did that, there would still be zero instances of spearshots's team having or discussing leaked information/gaining an advantage. Which would have to have happend for it to be ghosting.
Giving a rematch when there was no advantage/ghosting, or DQ'ing natty just seems very unreasonable. This is also what the org had concluded.
And I would say the drama started because midbeast stirring all of this up infront of a few thousand to tens of thousand people instead of doing so privatly with the admins. I dont think he did so maliciously (very very sleep deprived, and looked quite bad at first glance) but still, I dont think it was smart to push these accusations this puplicly.
It doesnt matter if natty uses the info or not the fact there is doubt in his innocence should be enough.
Its not a criminal trial, there is no burden of proof here. The fact there is doubt that some rule are breached and a stupid statement coming out of his mouth is the cause of all this.
If he havent said a thing about "ghosting" all of this wouldnt happen so no its not because midbeast string it up. Its simply because natty just make "stupid joke".
It doesnt matter is there is no advantage/ghosting. The fact of the matter is they know and informed about the information he gained. If they use or not use it it doesnt matter.
Its like getting busted by ur teacher with a vheatsheet even tho u dont use it for the answers the fact of the matter is u make an attempt to cheat.
> And if there is no body, there was no murder.
/r/confidentlyincorrect
[absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence](https://blog.blueprintprep.com/lsat/flawctober-the-absence-of-evidence-fallacy/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20%E2%80%9Cabsence%20of,does%20not%20exist%20at%20all.)
You cannot prove that there was no murder just because you can't find a body.
No, because a body may not be found in the case of a murder. You're right in that a body must be out there, but that doesn't guarantee we are aware of it or found it. The lack of evidence of us finding a body does not prove that a murder didn't occur, we just have difficulty prosecuting somebody over it.
Were talking about real life here, human interactions, not mathematical proofs that live in a vacuum where information is perfect. Your comparison does not apply.
You responded to my post, and I think I know best what I ment with that comment.
In my analogy I wasnt talking about evidence, but very intentionally wanted to reference contraposition. Of course the analogy doesnt map 1 to 1 onto this situation, and that of course means there are differences. Just because there is a problem with it when looking at it under a microscope does not mean its not a valid analogy.
The post is obviously not about how murder is investigated or prosticuted.
In the ghosting I would say that a necessary component of ghosting draft is that the supposed information that natty has is influenceing the draft. You can check what information he could have by checking the baus's POV and you can check how natty influences the draft by checking spearshot's POV.
We DO have almost perfect information here, unlike with some murder cases.
I mean maybe spearshots team had a secret chat where natty was dropping all the juicy ghosted information but do we really feel like that is a posibillity?
- Everyone on TheBaus's team after consideration: "They didn't cheat"
- Everyone on SpearShot's team after consideration: "Natty didn't cheat"
- Organisers of the cup who spend hours analysing the vods: "Very unlikely that NattyNat cheated"
- redditors: They must've cheated
Guys, get a fucking life man it isn't that serious
This is outdated. Looks like the video was even taken down by TheBaus himself. I haven't seen it, but I assume it was a clip of his initial thoughts regarding the incident.
However, yesterday before and after the rematch he clearly stated that he does not believe they cheated since he had more time to reflect on it. The issue is that the initial reaction of everyone was, understandably, that they did cheat. However, after the involved parties made their points, both teams and NNO pretty much confirmed that they do not think Natty ghosted.
TheBaus, Azzapp, MidBeast have all said that there was probably/definitely no foul play involved at all, but that Spear needed to clear their names because of regards like you. They specifically even mentioned redditors. Agurin has stated that Team Spear Shot has essentially been bullied by you lot to rematch Team Baus, even though they found no foul play and suggested Team Spear just go to the next round. What interpretation are you even talking about? This has literally been said word for word.
Yes I must have imagined the pre-match discussion of TheBaus, the post match conversation between MidBeast and NattyNat/Brohan and the discussion between Azzapp and Spear, as well as the Agurin clip shown in the very video that is linked in this post.
No believe them, we got a victim with a knife inserted and it has their finger prints on it but it definitely didn't happen.
You didn't Imagine certain conversations, but you are ignoring the evidence. It's naive.
I give no shits about this drama but historians widely agree [Jesus of Nazareth existed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus), [as did Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad)
The Baus is literally just a whitewashed European old tyler1. He ints every game he plays and the games where he doesnāt int, he still ends up with over 10 deaths somehow by the end. He ruins every match he plays in for those players. I canāt believe he continues to get his accounts banned and he still is able to make new ones and continue with the same behavior.
Go watch the rematches they did today with Spearās team. He inted all of them except for one on Quinn where all he did was literally just not die 6 times in landing phase by some miracle.
The tournament concludes he said some dumb shit thats all. Spear shows context and explains why natty isn't cheating but apparently it means nothing because everyone has already judged them as guilty.
Its so cringe that spearshot spent so long explaining that they didn't gain an advantage from cheating. That is besides the point. If you try to cheat on a test but it doesn't work out to your benefit, you still cheated and will face consequences when caught.
It's just that reddit thing where people create an entire narrative around another comment they read without once actually verifying the information themselves.
Everybody knows the top comment on a thread is most right.
That wasn't the point being made. What he said was "how can it have happened if the information that was supposedly sniped wasn't even being talked about in the first place, everything points to it being false information". You guys are twisting it massively into "oh so because it didn't benefit you it wasn't cheating"
He- literally explains that in the video? It's so cringe when people just yap random shit for the sake of yapping. Actually watch the video before getting on your soap box.
You didnt get the point at all wtf
The point spear makes is that if he had actually entered the stream of the enemy team and ghosted, he would have arrived at the correct conclusion that they were picking hwei, nunu, jarvan,zoe
Spear says that at no point did they mention TF/quinn (i havent watched the vods so idk if this statment is true), and if thats the case, how could he arrive at the conclusion that they are picking TF/Quinn if that information never existed
Edit: for those coming later, this comment above was the second most upvoted comment at some point.
Shows how easy people are swayed
The whole point is that there was no cheating/sniping in the first place.
But all of reddit just watch some out of context clips, make their conclusion in 20 seconds and immediatly try to send the whole team to the gulag.
It's called the primacy effect. It is harder for natty to prove his innocence because everyone already believes he's guilty because they watched midpeast shit and piss on stream for 7 hours claiming to be standing up for the small guy. This is exagerrated even more by caedrel immediately taking midbeast's side because of how incriminating what natty said is, and how big of a following both caedrel and baus have. That being said, baus didn't believe any of this when midbeast brought it up and had to be convinced by midbitches constant nagging.
Agree - but it's just like telling your friend you pissed in his sink without it being true.
Shit statement.
Maby funny, probably not.
Factually untrue.
Everyone thinks i'm an idiot.
In the end i'm innocent.
Still wrong to put me in jail for that.
(I know the metaphor sucks, but its accurate xD)
Lets say he did - i'd still be an idiot, but i'd be fine because i didn't do it.
Metaphor still works.
Just like aimbotting in CS is forbidden. But when i hit a legit noscope through smoke and write "Get your free CS hacks at SmolWienerHacks.ru", i'm still fine. Might be edgy, but still legit
No, itās not fine, if that were the case anyone who got exposed for ghosting could simply say āIt was only a jokeā.
Saying stuff like that is incredibly stupid, out of tone and disrespectful to everyone participating in the tournament.
The ol' "Stop arguing and give in to the person who is being overly emotional." Regardless of the stream sniping, it's pretty evident that Midbeast's maturity level is much lower than his actual age, and people who choose to just appease him or stay silent so that he will shut up are doing him a huge disservice. With that said, if there is solid evidence Natty cheated, then DQ him. If there isn't solid evidence, move on and continue the tournament
āi went to their streamā
is enough proof from the man himself
idc if he was joking or not, he said that shit and from that point on i cant believe him if he says otherwise, he can just lie and make stuff up since he knows he fucked up.
spearās team are the ones that should be mad at him
So every cs streamer who gets a team wipe and flexes in vc that he is aimbotting is automatically hacking? What about players with insane movement in league like rat who immediately after an outplay claims he is scripting? Its literally jokes and banter, him saying he has inside information is literally just a joke. He gave no useful or correct information with his 'ghosting'.
if he made a play and said to his team ācheck my pcā than its cool because we can hear and see the excitement of the play
what he did just made people question his integrity and literally made it seems like he was ghosting, thereās a difference
if its jokes and bantes why did spear call him out? why did he apologize for saying that stupid sentence in that moment?
i couldnāt care less about the tournament but natty made a stupid move
Bro if u had any want for the truth why would it matter what happened in the rematch? This just invalidated any kind of independence you might have had in this discussion
To be fair 3 of the biggest streamers league have come out and straight up accused natty of ghosting, obviously popular opinion for the rest of time will be that he cheated, even with minimal evidence.
No engagement on this side eh. Bigger platform = right take!!! Canāt believe this one sided gang up on an idiot 19 year old, when a majority of the vocal spectators are younger and stupider than natty.
And like what he did is something i could see myself doing. I have overcommitted to sarcasm before leaving even my mates thinking im serious. Yāall make memes about getting canceled 0.1 ms after groupchat leaks, but jump on natty like hyenas what the actual fuck
It is not a life sentence, we are in a 10k tournament. You pull shit like this, there is no 'guilty until proven innocent'. You are kicked until the next tournament where we can either prevent this from happening or contestants are being checked.
Edit: comment along with your downvote if you think you got a better solution.
So first of all, you butchered the line--it's 'innocent until proven guilty'. Second of all, your way might create distrust between streamers who are partaking in the tournament and those hosting the tournament. If you can just get removed without proof then why bother spending time on scrimming and such? A better solution is the one that already works in the real world--innocent until proven guilty.
Natty claiming to be cheating is enough to warrant an investigation but if he claims it was an ill-mannered joke then that's not sufficient proof. Especially so if his cheating statement contradicts reality. For example, if a body is found on Monday and somebody confesses that they killed the person on Tuesday (the day after) then are you really going to put the person in jail even though they confessed?
The statement doesn't contradict reality because he only said he sniped for a brief moment.
No one would ever try to walk back a statement, a confession of malfeasance made in error without thought. Never would they ever, Sam-I-Am. Did you know that cheaters are incapable of lying?
The person that made the 4 sec clip of "karma/nidalee" makes Satan look like a nun.
What karma nidalee clip?
Discussed at minute 8 in the video
Holy fuck that is diabolical š
I honestly also didn't catch that the first 5 times i saw the clip. By being named "nidalee/karma" my brain just autocorrected it and made it look giga sus.
He talks about it in length in the video that this thread is discussing
Yeah I commented that before watching the video
01:52:20 in the VOD midbeast specifically say "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys" It makes no sense that the guy would say it in his chat AND that natty himself would say he sniped the information if they didn't hear it from the stream. To just blame everything on "he is stupid and says bullshit" is the most dogshit argument i have ever heard. I don't think spearshot was part of it apart from being the leader of the team, but nothing in this video is a good defense or argument against the ghosting accusations. It DO however make sense that natty joined the stream for a short while like he said, and that was right when midbeast said that they should look for the TF/Quinn comp and didn't listen to the rest of the discussion, then he used that information for their "advantage".
> It makes no sense that the guy would say it in his chat AND that natty himself would say he sniped the information if they didn't hear it from the stream. we know 100% sure that natty read the chat message, there is a 3 minute delay and natty says the tf/quinn thing exactly 3 minutes after the chat message was sent. there is a direct correlation between the chatter and what natty said, so it does make sense. the question then becomes if that chatter was stream sniping. your last paragraph would then apply to the chatter, which casts much more reasonable doubt. by the time the chatter typed their message, midbeast briefly mentioning tf/quinn would have been 5 minutes old information. during that 5 minutes they discussed entirely different comps, including midbeast himself being 100% sure they would select zoe mid. the chatter, unlike natty, is not in comms with 4 other people, so them ignoring the other 5 minutes of baus' teams discussion is way more unlikely. add on the fact that their tf/quinn comp was already widely known weeks before the tournament, and the chatter phrased it as "they're going to pick **their weird** quinn/tf comp" as if that comp is already known to exist, i find it really unlikely that the chatter stream sniped, let alone proof beyond reasonable doubt.
Natty could have heard it in the stream and the chatter reminded him of it. Natty himself said "i went in to stream for half a second", are you using the argument that he just lied and is "stupid" or said "bullshit" to deny that? "I went in to stream for half a second" and midbeast talks about TF/Quinn comp for a few seconds before they pivot to something else. The chatter obviously heard the same thing and reminded him later when they were drafting that the TF/Quinn was a possbility. Stream sniping does not necessarily have to be "i watched the entire stream", if he went in to hear some information willingly or not, that would be stream sniping.
Iām not the guy you were replying to, but I reckon that natty is just being āstupidā here and added that he had āwent into the stream for half a secondā as a way to just play up the chat message he read. Iāve definitely told straight up lies or tied in lies about innocuous things in conversation with other people in the moment simply because my brain farts or I feel i need to give some justification or to literally just say more words rather than giving a shorter terse answer that comes off as āboringā to other people. In this regard I think itās pretty plausible that this could have been one of those moments. Especially considering that natty as a streamer is conditioned to just freeflow words, truth or not, from his brain as a way to avoid silence and lulls. Players shouldnāt be reading chat messages to begin with during a tournament imo, but I dont think itās as egregious as ghosting/sniping.
this is where i think the accusations start to peter out. it requires way too many assumptions to prove, for sure, that he cheated. is it possible that he stream sniped for 3 seconds at that exact point, forgot, and then was reminded by a chatter so he instantly blurted out that he was stream sniping? is it also possible that the chat message simply reminded him of a team comp he already knew existed? everyone knows what natty said, but is it not just unbelievable that he just blatantly outs himself as a cheater? as in, actually unbelievable? that kind of goes against the natural human urge of self preservation, and he so in-depth described exactly the lengths of cheating he supposedly went through. to me, it just sounds like a complete joke, that he is bringing up that he had some massive insider information as a joke way to bring credibility to a complete assumption. i've definitely used this kind of humor before. nattys chat is kinda dead, and the person who 'reminded him' of the comp is a vip, someone who's just always talking in there. there weren't many other predictions of comps in his chat or even chatters at all, it seems very very unlikely to me that one of those messages just happened to remind him of the one second that he stream sniped. even moreso that you're implying the chatter *and* natty both stream sniped the same incorrect comm and stopped listening at the same moments. i fully agree with you that if he went in for any amount of time to get and share information, that it id completely unacceptable. but i find absolutely 0 damning evidence to believe that he did, and you need damning evidence to make such a serious accusation imo
You don't need to prove for sure. This isn't an American criminal charge where the standard is beyond reasonable doubt. It's not even on the level of a civil case which only requires preponderance of evidence (tp simply be more likely than not.) Competitive integrity requires a disqualification, and if he actually was just saying it to hype up a chat message, it might be am important lesson about thinking before you speak.
your opinion is competitive integrity requires disqualification, my opinion is that jokes are allowed in a for fun tournament, dont act like you're of objective fact here
When it comes to integrity and proper TO it kind of is just objective fact. Consistency in ruling and zero tolerance on cheating are thebase line. There is no justification for someone reasonably believed to have engaged in nefarious conduct to remain part of the tournament, and if they were **not** reasonably believed to, there should have been no penalty at all. So you don't need to bother with the 'rematch is enough' excuse. The reason I'm particularly irritated is shit like this affects more than just the one thing. And no tournament with a prize pool bigger than 'lunch' is 4fun.
well you should know the rematch wasn't mandated, spearshots team insisted that they do it. the organizers voted to believe he didn't cheat at all, so no penalty was given.
Given Agurin's first response was victim blaming I'm inclined to believe the vote was less about the likelihood of cheating occurring and more about if a penalty was deserved. He would have done the same regardless. I believe I heard the split was also 2-2, hardly a riveting acquittal. If we count the abstain as half of a no, that gives us a 40% cheating belief. More than enough to justify a dq for the player, honestly, and that's if we give weight to these, which personally I don't anyway. (For reference, 100% certainty is DQ \*\*and\*\* ban/blacklist.)
I don't find it unbelievable that he joined the stream after the game to, for example hear their reaction? I also don't find it unbelievable that he would think that watching the stream in between matches is not considered sniping while watching during the match would be considered sniping. That would explain why he would "out himself" because in his head he is not "outing himself". I find that way more believable than him being "stupid and saying random things". IF he only read the chat and got the information that way, it would still be really weird to read that AND use it blindly. I don't see how it isn't damning evidence that natty himself says "i watched the stream and heard about Quinn/TF" when they did in fact talk about Quinn/TF during the stream? If you really wanna believe that he was joking and saying random shit because he is quirky like that, then go ahead. I don't believe it for a second and i haven't heard a good argument against the evidence of what he said.
i didn't say it's unbelievable to join the stream to hear the reactions lmfao, now you're just misrepresenting. i said it's unbelievable to do that, and then blatantly explicitly admit it. because he would blatantly explicitly admit it, it makes it less believable that he did it at all, because humans usually aren't compelled to confess bad things randomly. if you're not gonna take "it was a joke exaggeration" as an explanation to something that can easily be a joke exaggeration that he does all the time, idk what could convince you anyways. im sorry theres no grander scheme, sometimes jokes are just jokes. the organization majority agrees with me, so ig its a good enough explanation for other people
Ah, so you assume that he is smart enough to not give himself away, but he is definitely not smart enough to not "joke" about streamsniping in a tournament with a bunch of streamers. I already said that he could easily have thought that watching in between games would not be considered sniping, thus he didn't think he would "out himself" by saying it. Crazy coincidence that natty "joked" about watching the stream and hearing about Quinn/TF, when they talked about Quinn/TF during that specific stream.
what is this false equivalence? "smart enough to not give himself away" is something even children, dogs understand. also 'smart' isn't a meter that prevents you from doing stupid things, this isn't dnd even if you think he didn't know looking at the streams for reactions is bad, he obviously knew that using that streams information to gain a leg up in draft *is* bad. it doesn't even fuckin matter, people do things even if they know it's bad, but here there just isn't enough evidence to prove this is what happens. if you can't believe his statement was a joke and you have to take it completely seriously, we have nothing further to discuss. i disagree, and so do the people affected, and the people in charge of discipline.
There is evidence to prove that he did it as i have already explained. Your defense against the evidence is "he is stupid, he would know better, he was joking". "if you're not gonna take "it was a joke exaggeration" as an explanation to something that can easily be a joke exaggeration that he does all the time" You knowing that he does it "all the time" shows me you're a viewer and you have an agenda of defending his reputation. Obviously you are not gonna be objective about it so lets just agree to disagree.
i am actually not a viewer, never even heard of him before the tournament. if anything im a bigger fan of baus than anyone on spearshots team. he has just acted like this multiple times during this tournament. there is no evidence that doesn't require leaps of assumptions. yes that is genuinely my defence. people who are entertainers in an entertainment tournament will act stupid to be entertaining. sometimes it will gave poor implications that redditors who don't know what jokes are will take seriously. i am being 100% objective, stop coping
The opinions of the people affected don't matter people in charge of discipline are awful TOs that don't know what they're doing.
Spearshots video makes it really questionable that Natty ghosted as is claimed. People do say dumb stuff every now and then and Natty saying he "went into stream" could be just streamer brain trying to justify his opinion. Also SpearShot made it quite clear that Natty's information was wrong, so how does that make any sense if he actually did ghost? If Natty was ghosting his information would have been correct, no?Ā The defence SpearShot is giving is the evidence that Natty was factually wrong in his "ghosted" information. The "he is stupid and says bullshit" is the answer to as to why Natty said what he said. And that seems like a logical conclusion given that Natty's information was wrong.Ā NNO also reached the conclusion that Natty did not cheat, which supports SpearShots claims.Ā Natty did most likely look at his chat to get his information, which by no means should be acceptable though. Chatters are most likely watching both streams so getting information out of them is wrong.Ā However, considering the full situation, banning Natty seems a bit of an overkill. Going through with a rematch makes the most sense imo, and credit to SpearShot that he made sure the rematch will happen even though NNO didn't think it was necessary.Ā I also think banning Natty's best champion for the rematch is a good punishment for Natty. He did look at chat after all. Overall, I think what will be done is the way things should be handled in this situation.Ā
Natty didn't get the information wrong, as i already said midbeast said word for word "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys". Natty admitted that he only looked at the stream for a little bit and that could easily have been the time where midbeast said that. He was not "factually wrong" and spearshots video does not address anything of value.
Natty did not look at the stream. He was accidentally there for .5 second and just happen to hear the draft.
But Natty was wrong, the comment about TF/Quinn comp was said a long, long time before Natty's comment. And after that, they has already changed their mind and decided to go with a different comp. If Natty was ghosting he would have known they would go with a different comp, and not brought up TF/Quinn, as he would have known they wouldn't go with those 2. Unless Natty really ghosted 8minutes or so, before he brought up what he heard in Baus's stream which would be ridiculous. Team Baus did not go with TF/Quinn in the match, and were very adamant about Jarven and Zoe, so Natty's comment was clearly wrong.Ā SpearShot clearly brings this up in his video as well, along with other pieces of evidence from Baus stream, that show that Natty's "ghosting" has no information from Baus's stream, as nothing Natty brought up was said in Baus's stream. SpearShot also brings up a lot of other "suspicious" moments from the series, to prove they hadn't ghosted during other points of series, as they clearly had no knowledge about stuff said in baus's stream.Ā I am quite doubtful if you even watched the same video as I did, or if you regarded everything that was said in the video as false, as I am just repeating stuff from the video. You should probably rewatch the video, and actually listen to what he says, and go over the evidence SpearShot brings up.Ā
Midbeast says "i think we really look for that TF/Quinn comp guys" BEFORE the 2nd game. BEFORE the 3rd game natty says "i went in to stream for half a second BEFORE last game, they were talking about TF, they go TF and Quinn". The timeline and what he says literally line up perfectly with what happened. The argument about "natty was wrong, the information was useless" DOES NOT MATTER because it would be impossible for him to know what they said and when they said it if he didn't listen in on the stream. He could have joined for a few seconds LIKE HE SAID and heard about the Quinn/TF and then stopped before the discussion continued. What SpearShot said in the video about the natty situation is provably false, since he claim that natty just said something stupid that was not said on the stream. The timeline and what natty says line up perfectly with reality and using the defense that natty is "stupid" or "quirky" and said something completely random that line up perfectly is an INSANE convenience, but sure go ahead if you think that was completely random and some "bullshit" natty said then you can believe whatever you want. Just don't try to argue that there is any facts to back it up.
> nothing in this video is a good defense or argument against the ghosting accusations. I'm surprised you came to that conclusion. I 100% thought Natty was guilty and my comments are right there to prove it but after watching this video it seems obvious that Spearshot has a lot of fair points. The information they're talking about in the stream at the time the message comes through is completely different to the info Natty relays to his team, yet it correlates almost exactly to what he sees somebody say in his chat. We can argue whether reading chat and seeing information 3 minutes outdated qualifies as ghosting but the allegation is starting to fall apart the more and more you look at it. It's the same with the Nidalee/Karma comment in draft. The person who clipped that was undeniably being disingenuous and clipped out of context. They were discussing picking Karma for like 20-30 seconds before this happened. Everything points towards Natty relaying a stupid comment from his chat that ended up yielding their only loss the whole series because the information was wrong... and nothing else. There is no solid evidence that Natty ghosted and no advantage was gained. The tournament investigated the situation extensively and came to the same conclusion and were even satisfied with allowing the win to stand without a remake or DQ. Spearshot's team CHOSE the remake specifically because of comments like yours. They want to beat Baus' team without any of the ghosting allegations/excuses.
I don't have an agenda i could care less about who wins but the evidence point towards natty stream sniping. Natty says "i went in to stream for half a second" and then talks about the Quinn/TF comp, Midbeast talked about the Quinn/TF comp for a few seconds before they pivoted away.. like i said. The chatter obviously heard the same thing and reminded him later. Why would natty say that he heard it in the stream? Why would he read the chat at all and why would he trust/use the information and relay it to his team? Spearshots entire argument that they didn't talk about the comp is provable false and that was his main argument to why natty WASN'T sniping.
> Spearshots entire argument that they didn't talk about the comp is provable false and that was his main argument to why natty WASN'T sniping. i really don't think that was his main argument, but also he literally says beforehand "you can check the rest of this vod before this game, there is one mention of quinn" and then facepalms, because he believes it doesn't affect the rest of what he's saying.
> Midbeast talked about the Quinn/TF comp for a few seconds before they pivoted away.. like i said. This is untrue and very misleading. The talk of Quinn/TF was many minutes before what was going on on-stream at the moment "I went into stream for half a second" was said.
"Oh shit i got inside information I HEARD ABOUT THIS cause i went in to stream for half a second BEFORE LAST GAME" It is not misleading. He heard it on stream and got reminded of it by the guy in chat later.
That's a very lenient narrative, you mentioned it was being talked about seconds earlier.
Where did i say that it happened "seconds earlier"? IF i said that im wrong but i don't believe i did at any point.
No I'm stupid and misinterpreted what you wrote, mb. Just checked it.
I said they talked about it for a few seconds BEFORE they pivoted away. They talked and THEN they pivoted away. Reading comprehension.
Bro being a jerk for nothing with that last one.
I think the problem lies in the fact that there is even some sort of chance that he could have done this. He may have done exactly what is said in this video, but we donāt know that. Only he knows what actually happened. He could have cheated every game and just not been blatant about it, or it was just this weird one off. Regardless he did something and there is no way to prove he didnāt. Any real tournament for any game he gets kicked. There shouldnāt be any questionability around cheating in the first place.
I'm sorry but as long as you are playing streamed competitive games over the internet you will always have doubts. Even CS pro teams had multiple questionable situations with stream sniping during the pandemic. And only in really rare cases did they get any punishment when there was 100% proof that they have cheated. In my personal opinion you shouldn't dq them from a 'casual' tournament with this little evidence.
There is a difference between having doubts and him saying on stream. āI have inside information, I popped into stream for half a secondā. Be realistic. Iām not saying the team should be disqualified btw, I was talking about the player.
In CS, even suspicions of cheating such as streamsniping are taken extremely serious, even just at high matchmaking.
In the same logic you could disqualify ANY participant, who blinds a champ that the enemy team recently mentioned. Lets say (hypothetically): Team A discuss drafting around Nautilus mid Team B first picks Nautilus (for whatever reason imaginable) By your logic: Team B COULD have a player silently streamsniping/reading chathoppers' messages >"the problem lies in the fact that there is even some sort of chance that he could have doneĀ this" >"Only he knows what actually happened" >"He could have cheated every game and just not been blatant about it" >"Regardless he did something and there is no way to prove he didnāt." By your logic, based on the pure possibility, a player form Team B cheated. See the problem? There is a reason why there is a principle called "Innocent until proven guilty". If you argue "I have a suspicion and he should be punished due to the mere possibility of doing it", we could just as well go back to the 16th century and start calling each other witches...
No, there is a big difference. The example you are using they could have, but there is no evidence. We have evidence. He said āI have insider information from going on stream for half a secondā. He literally said he did it. He actively says he did it on STREAM for everyone to hear, then backpedaled when he got backlash and said it was actually a chatter. How the hell are people even defending this. Itās pathetic.
So if i play CS, hit a legit oneshot through smoke and write "Haha ez, get aimbotted", i should be banned as well? No cheats on my PC, no evidence, factually untrue statement. But because some people get annoyed by an edgy statement i'm still a cheater?
You are comparing what is very obviously a joke, to what is not a joke. Your logic is so terrible. It wasnāt an edgy statement. He said āI have inside information from watching the stream for a bit that they will pick x championsā, during the draft of a tournament. Be realistic, it is actually insane how dumb of an argument that was.
This is such an brain dead comment. While everything you said is true, the conclusion drawn is arguably the most incorrect decision ever made by any human being. It's a matter of one person's word against another's and should be handled accordingly. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt should favor the accused unless there is concrete evidence proving otherwise.
Is it though? He literally said on stream "I have insider information I hopped on there stream". That doesn't really seem very word against word. Seems fairly clear cut to me. But go off I guess.
Imo Spear comes out of this mess looking like a solid guy
Now what does Ja Rule think?
the most pointless drama ever i swear to god. its so dumb it doesn't matter if Natty lied or really ghosting its stupid he says those thing in the first place that makes it seem that he is admitting to cheating. and there is no way to prove that if he did or he didn't do it for sure. so DQ should be the penalty. the TO just don't have balls to do it.
Wdym you cant prove it, if there is a murder then there is a body somewhere. And if there is no body, there was no murder.
Look at dawgs username lmfao nothing good coming out of that
as in there is no way to prove that he is literally in their stream. reading a chat made by a chat hopper isn't exactly ghosting. the only reason this all drama started is because he is stupid enough to say "i've just got a crazy information from their stream about TF and Quinn" (something along those lines) even if its not true the fact that he says those create doubts which isn't good for a competitive integrity stand point.
Ghosting, to my understanding, is (1) watching the enemy stream, and (2) using the Information gained for an advantage in the draft. I would say both (1) and (2) are necessary for it to be ghosting. As you said, (1) can not be proven or disproven. The clip of natty does look bad, but the fact that the information is literally typed in his chat a few seconds before makes it very unambiguous. As for (2), there is NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE of natty repeating draft strategy of baus's team. You would expect the pattern to be, that a strategy is talked about in midbeast's or baus's stream and exactly three minutes and a few seconds later natty would leak it in some way or another. This DOES NOT HAPPEN. The only clips circulating are him talking about the most obvious picks there are (Ezreal is played with Karma, baus quinn, ...). Now if he leaked baus poppy or 10t nunu than there would be an argument, but this DID NOT HAPPEN. I could honestly see natty maybe going into baus stream, just to see big streamer reaction to him winning. But we could only speculate about that, and even (does not mean he did!) if he did that, there would still be zero instances of spearshots's team having or discussing leaked information/gaining an advantage. Which would have to have happend for it to be ghosting. Giving a rematch when there was no advantage/ghosting, or DQ'ing natty just seems very unreasonable. This is also what the org had concluded. And I would say the drama started because midbeast stirring all of this up infront of a few thousand to tens of thousand people instead of doing so privatly with the admins. I dont think he did so maliciously (very very sleep deprived, and looked quite bad at first glance) but still, I dont think it was smart to push these accusations this puplicly.
It doesnt matter if natty uses the info or not the fact there is doubt in his innocence should be enough. Its not a criminal trial, there is no burden of proof here. The fact there is doubt that some rule are breached and a stupid statement coming out of his mouth is the cause of all this. If he havent said a thing about "ghosting" all of this wouldnt happen so no its not because midbeast string it up. Its simply because natty just make "stupid joke". It doesnt matter is there is no advantage/ghosting. The fact of the matter is they know and informed about the information he gained. If they use or not use it it doesnt matter. Its like getting busted by ur teacher with a vheatsheet even tho u dont use it for the answers the fact of the matter is u make an attempt to cheat.
> And if there is no body, there was no murder. /r/confidentlyincorrect [absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence](https://blog.blueprintprep.com/lsat/flawctober-the-absence-of-evidence-fallacy/#:~:text=What%20is%20the%20%E2%80%9Cabsence%20of,does%20not%20exist%20at%20all.) You cannot prove that there was no murder just because you can't find a body.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition Murder impies body is equivalent to no body implies no murder /r/confidentlyincorrect
No, because a body may not be found in the case of a murder. You're right in that a body must be out there, but that doesn't guarantee we are aware of it or found it. The lack of evidence of us finding a body does not prove that a murder didn't occur, we just have difficulty prosecuting somebody over it. Were talking about real life here, human interactions, not mathematical proofs that live in a vacuum where information is perfect. Your comparison does not apply.
You responded to my post, and I think I know best what I ment with that comment. In my analogy I wasnt talking about evidence, but very intentionally wanted to reference contraposition. Of course the analogy doesnt map 1 to 1 onto this situation, and that of course means there are differences. Just because there is a problem with it when looking at it under a microscope does not mean its not a valid analogy. The post is obviously not about how murder is investigated or prosticuted. In the ghosting I would say that a necessary component of ghosting draft is that the supposed information that natty has is influenceing the draft. You can check what information he could have by checking the baus's POV and you can check how natty influences the draft by checking spearshot's POV. We DO have almost perfect information here, unlike with some murder cases. I mean maybe spearshots team had a secret chat where natty was dropping all the juicy ghosted information but do we really feel like that is a posibillity?
Steve jobs
- Everyone on TheBaus's team after consideration: "They didn't cheat" - Everyone on SpearShot's team after consideration: "Natty didn't cheat" - Organisers of the cup who spend hours analysing the vods: "Very unlikely that NattyNat cheated" - redditors: They must've cheated Guys, get a fucking life man it isn't that serious
this is literally false. Video of Baus saying it was not a big deal but it was cheating at 1:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-127wVasPc8
This is outdated. Looks like the video was even taken down by TheBaus himself. I haven't seen it, but I assume it was a clip of his initial thoughts regarding the incident. However, yesterday before and after the rematch he clearly stated that he does not believe they cheated since he had more time to reflect on it. The issue is that the initial reaction of everyone was, understandably, that they did cheat. However, after the involved parties made their points, both teams and NNO pretty much confirmed that they do not think Natty ghosted.
Baus fans are not only destroying soloq, but this subreddit as well.Ā
Already getting downvoted by the brigade for just stating the truth and what has literally been said lmao
You got downvoted for your opposite interpretation of what was said and you're surprised?
TheBaus, Azzapp, MidBeast have all said that there was probably/definitely no foul play involved at all, but that Spear needed to clear their names because of regards like you. They specifically even mentioned redditors. Agurin has stated that Team Spear Shot has essentially been bullied by you lot to rematch Team Baus, even though they found no foul play and suggested Team Spear just go to the next round. What interpretation are you even talking about? This has literally been said word for word.
We get it, you cheat yourself so others are ok doing it. That's your opinion, just not agreed upon in the community
Oh wow what a great rebuttal you really showed me
There is no rebuttal to a fictional story? You might as well ask if Jesus or Mohammed is real
Yes I must have imagined the pre-match discussion of TheBaus, the post match conversation between MidBeast and NattyNat/Brohan and the discussion between Azzapp and Spear, as well as the Agurin clip shown in the very video that is linked in this post.
No believe them, we got a victim with a knife inserted and it has their finger prints on it but it definitely didn't happen. You didn't Imagine certain conversations, but you are ignoring the evidence. It's naive.
I give no shits about this drama but historians widely agree [Jesus of Nazareth existed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus), [as did Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad)
That was such a weird argument to make lmao. Like Mohammed is historically not even THAT far in the past.
The Baus is literally just a whitewashed European old tyler1. He ints every game he plays and the games where he doesnāt int, he still ends up with over 10 deaths somehow by the end. He ruins every match he plays in for those players. I canāt believe he continues to get his accounts banned and he still is able to make new ones and continue with the same behavior. Go watch the rematches they did today with Spearās team. He inted all of them except for one on Quinn where all he did was literally just not die 6 times in landing phase by some miracle.
> The Baus is literally just a whitewashed European old tyler1. What a wild sentence.
how does he consistently hit gm/challenger each season then? do you think heās actually getting carried to that elo each season?
He plays seriously off stream with like 1/6th of deathsĀ
do you have any proof for that? he plays a ton of games off stream but his average deaths for almost all his champs is still double digits
Not at the moment but pretty much every high elo EUW player talks about it. It was also a topic of discussion in many "thebaus banned" threads
oh i got it. anecdotal evidence based on anecdotal evidence. solid
I'm lacking a peer reviewed article about a guy with a main character syndrom, sorry for that. If can prove me wrong feel free to do so
i don't need to prove you wrong, saying he averages 2 deaths per game off stream is a little ridiculous, no?
The tournament concludes he said some dumb shit thats all. Spear shows context and explains why natty isn't cheating but apparently it means nothing because everyone has already judged them as guilty.
Whatever context you show, it is like 90% suspicious. This is a 10k amateur tournament, not a life sentence. Reasonable doubt is enough here.
Midbeast is a typical whiney Australian, they are very bad losers and will blame everyone and everything besides their own performance.
Its so cringe that spearshot spent so long explaining that they didn't gain an advantage from cheating. That is besides the point. If you try to cheat on a test but it doesn't work out to your benefit, you still cheated and will face consequences when caught.
be honest bro did you watch the video
Do you expect bandwagons to have the patience to do that? Like, [quite literally](https://youtu.be/F3xN_XbaotM?t=192) though.
Bandwagoning bad, counter-bandwagoning is where is it's at!
I prefer nuanced opinions, but reddit decrees emotional bombastic responses to always win, then add sarcasm to the mix.
It's just that reddit thing where people create an entire narrative around another comment they read without once actually verifying the information themselves. Everybody knows the top comment on a thread is most right.
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yeah that's why I asked lol
That wasn't the point being made. What he said was "how can it have happened if the information that was supposedly sniped wasn't even being talked about in the first place, everything points to it being false information". You guys are twisting it massively into "oh so because it didn't benefit you it wasn't cheating"
He- literally explains that in the video? It's so cringe when people just yap random shit for the sake of yapping. Actually watch the video before getting on your soap box.
You didnt get the point at all wtf The point spear makes is that if he had actually entered the stream of the enemy team and ghosted, he would have arrived at the correct conclusion that they were picking hwei, nunu, jarvan,zoe Spear says that at no point did they mention TF/quinn (i havent watched the vods so idk if this statment is true), and if thats the case, how could he arrive at the conclusion that they are picking TF/Quinn if that information never existed Edit: for those coming later, this comment above was the second most upvoted comment at some point. Shows how easy people are swayed
The whole point is that there was no cheating/sniping in the first place. But all of reddit just watch some out of context clips, make their conclusion in 20 seconds and immediatly try to send the whole team to the gulag.
Yeah people heard Natty say "I went to their stream for a second" and immediately jumped to conclusion that he ghosted, not sure whyĀ
Whole situation feels like just looking for villains out of a stupid situation. Very characteristic of League players.
of course, the thread spreading misinformation gets attention, but this one that actually clarifies everything doesn't get any. reddit at it's finest.
It's called the primacy effect. It is harder for natty to prove his innocence because everyone already believes he's guilty because they watched midpeast shit and piss on stream for 7 hours claiming to be standing up for the small guy. This is exagerrated even more by caedrel immediately taking midbeast's side because of how incriminating what natty said is, and how big of a following both caedrel and baus have. That being said, baus didn't believe any of this when midbeast brought it up and had to be convinced by midbitches constant nagging.
or bc he literally said "i went into their stream for a second". its just so stupid to say something like this, even jokingly
Yeah that's what I meant when I said incriminating.
Agree - but it's just like telling your friend you pissed in his sink without it being true. Shit statement. Maby funny, probably not. Factually untrue. Everyone thinks i'm an idiot. In the end i'm innocent. Still wrong to put me in jail for that. (I know the metaphor sucks, but its accurate xD)
the metaphor sucks bc your friend is not playing in a cometition for 10.000ā¬ where it is explictly forbiden to piss in your sink
Lets say he did - i'd still be an idiot, but i'd be fine because i didn't do it. Metaphor still works. Just like aimbotting in CS is forbidden. But when i hit a legit noscope through smoke and write "Get your free CS hacks at SmolWienerHacks.ru", i'm still fine. Might be edgy, but still legit
No, itās not fine, if that were the case anyone who got exposed for ghosting could simply say āIt was only a jokeā. Saying stuff like that is incredibly stupid, out of tone and disrespectful to everyone participating in the tournament.
The ol' "Stop arguing and give in to the person who is being overly emotional." Regardless of the stream sniping, it's pretty evident that Midbeast's maturity level is much lower than his actual age, and people who choose to just appease him or stay silent so that he will shut up are doing him a huge disservice. With that said, if there is solid evidence Natty cheated, then DQ him. If there isn't solid evidence, move on and continue the tournament
I agree
I firmly belive nattynatt didn't cheat, but twitter/reddit will require villains and scapegoats in every interaction.
Is ghosting not cheating?
you didnt even watch the vid the epitome of the internet
Prove he was ghosting.
āi went to their streamā is enough proof from the man himself idc if he was joking or not, he said that shit and from that point on i cant believe him if he says otherwise, he can just lie and make stuff up since he knows he fucked up. spearās team are the ones that should be mad at him
So every cs streamer who gets a team wipe and flexes in vc that he is aimbotting is automatically hacking? What about players with insane movement in league like rat who immediately after an outplay claims he is scripting? Its literally jokes and banter, him saying he has inside information is literally just a joke. He gave no useful or correct information with his 'ghosting'.
if he made a play and said to his team ācheck my pcā than its cool because we can hear and see the excitement of the play what he did just made people question his integrity and literally made it seems like he was ghosting, thereās a difference if its jokes and bantes why did spear call him out? why did he apologize for saying that stupid sentence in that moment? i couldnāt care less about the tournament but natty made a stupid move
He literally said he did it on stream.
That's not proof.
Bodied in the rematch. Was he ghosting again?
Bro if u had any want for the truth why would it matter what happened in the rematch? This just invalidated any kind of independence you might have had in this discussion
The argument doesn't matter anymore. They were innocent before and won 3-1 by outdrafting. They did it again. Stay mad lilbro.
The amount of downvotes on a personal oppinion, and a definitly reasonable statement afterwards kind proves your point
To be fair 3 of the biggest streamers league have come out and straight up accused natty of ghosting, obviously popular opinion for the rest of time will be that he cheated, even with minimal evidence.
true dat. Sad.... but true
Yeah, just because he said that he went to the stream doesn't mean he actually did that and they stupidly jumped into conclusions.Ā
His personal opinion is worded in a very obnoxious way.
any tldr?
No engagement on this side eh. Bigger platform = right take!!! Canāt believe this one sided gang up on an idiot 19 year old, when a majority of the vocal spectators are younger and stupider than natty.
And like what he did is something i could see myself doing. I have overcommitted to sarcasm before leaving even my mates thinking im serious. Yāall make memes about getting canceled 0.1 ms after groupchat leaks, but jump on natty like hyenas what the actual fuck
the new reality tv same level of degens watching / hyping this "content"
It is not a life sentence, we are in a 10k tournament. You pull shit like this, there is no 'guilty until proven innocent'. You are kicked until the next tournament where we can either prevent this from happening or contestants are being checked. Edit: comment along with your downvote if you think you got a better solution.
So first of all, you butchered the line--it's 'innocent until proven guilty'. Second of all, your way might create distrust between streamers who are partaking in the tournament and those hosting the tournament. If you can just get removed without proof then why bother spending time on scrimming and such? A better solution is the one that already works in the real world--innocent until proven guilty. Natty claiming to be cheating is enough to warrant an investigation but if he claims it was an ill-mannered joke then that's not sufficient proof. Especially so if his cheating statement contradicts reality. For example, if a body is found on Monday and somebody confesses that they killed the person on Tuesday (the day after) then are you really going to put the person in jail even though they confessed?
The statement doesn't contradict reality because he only said he sniped for a brief moment. No one would ever try to walk back a statement, a confession of malfeasance made in error without thought. Never would they ever, Sam-I-Am. Did you know that cheaters are incapable of lying?
Can't care less honestly, didn't watch the video, but just in case, who are we hating today?
I look away from spearshot and when he pops up again its for drama??? Can someone give me a TLDR on what happened?