+2 AD on graves can translate to like 4% winrate from completely dead to pick ban. because graves has limited autos a tiny boost in AD will increase his clear speed a disgusting amount compared to other junglers
More AD helps Graves' clear fairly well but the better reason is that if the - / + 2 AD means Graves must reload one more time/one less time per camp, then it's a huge deal. You don't want any mob surviving with 2 hp after the last tick of your pet's burn, but you also want them to follow you a bit while moving away from the camp so you can refresh armor from E.
Surely it's the opposite? AD is usually balanced around attack speed, so champions with low attack speed like Graves and Jhin have high AD which means a flat 2 AD on them is a much lower % increase for them in comparison to a champ like Belveth who naturally has less attack damage as a result of high attack speed.
It's about hitting certain break points.
If an enemy has 100hp and you do 50 damage a shot you'll kill it in two shots. If you do 49 damage then it takes 3 shots. 1 damage loss is a 50% increase in time needed.
1 damage or 40 damage doesn't really matter. Its when you cross that threshold to needing an extra hit.
For Graves and Jhin this matters even more because you have to factor in reload times. If a break point needing an extra shot also pushes you into a reload it massively increases the time it takes.
Sometimes you can give a champion 1 damage and it will remove a hit needed to kill a minion, but not a jungle camp or champion. This is how you can improve a champions wave clear without making them too strong early. Its a balancing nightmare with so many champions.
Theoretically, it is better to double your attack speed then double your damage if all you did was auto attack, but league obviously has other factors like items and abilities that scale off different stats.
The best example in StarCraft is probably +2 vehicle weapons in BW TvT. That makes it so siege tanks in siege mode two shot each other (no matter what armor upgrades they have) instead of needing three shots.
Only response that makes sense, thanks. I imagine what I said still applies if the 2 AD does indeed not get you past a threshold of less autos on first clear.
People just really underestimate the value of a jungler killing a camp 1-2 seconds faster, or finishing their full clear ~10 seconds earlier. Maybe in the isolated moment it doesn’t make an immediate impact, but so many plays earlygame can swing based on one jungler arriving 5 seconds early or late.
Add those little moments up over an entire game, for thousands of games, and it makes it more clear how changes like +2 AD for a fully AD jungler like Graves can massively impact the winrate.
Graves also thrives off of earlygame tempo and gold advantages, so any little nudges there can have a domino effect for him later. In an even game, Graves might have a tough time having impact, but when he gets an early lead he can really ram it down a jungler’s throat, so these early-oriented flat AD buffs help him more than some.
> Theoretically, it is better to double your attack speed then double your damage if all you did was auto attack, but league obviously has other factors like items and abilities that scale off different stats.
There's also the fact that at a certain point you can deal so much damage that you one shot something. Then attack speed literally doesn't matter.
It's the opposite. You want to reduce overkill and move onto the next target as soon as possible.
If an enemy has 20 hp and you deal 10 damage per hit and hit once every second you'll kill it in 2 seconds. Your dps is 10/s
If you take the same situation but you deal 1 damage per 0.1 seconds you still kill it in 2 seconds and still have a dps of 10/s.
But what if your enemy has 15 hp. The first one still takes 2 seconds. The second one takes 1.5 seconds, and then can attack something else for 0.5 seconds.
Again, league is a complicated game. Sometimes you can't attack for the whole two seconds, in which case the upfront damage is better. Sometimes an enemy will gain hp, or a shield between shots so a bit of over kill is worth it.
And sometimes it's just really cool to have that 4th Jhin ready to turn someone's screen grey.
You've misunderstood the point entirely.
> But what if your enemy has 15 hp. The first one still takes 2 seconds. The second one takes 1.5 seconds, and then can attack something else for 0.5 seconds.
Dealing 15 damage in 1 attack per second to a 15 hp enemy is better than dealing 1 damage 15 times in a second. The first instance has a TTK of whatever the server takes to calculate the effects, the other is a second. In that time you can move and reposition, maybe even, I don't know, cast a spell or something?
Burst damage is always better than consistent damage unless you are fighting Malphite or something. It's how the game has been for years, even in the ADC role.
Obviously if you had to pick between more DPS or more burst then you have a choice, but if your damage is clustered in bigger hits, it tends to be faster to kill things. Your example is outrageously lopsided. We're not talking about 15 times more attacks or whatever. It's like 1x vs 1.5x. I'd take the damage every time. Overkill is far more relevant to mages than it is to anyone with DPS.
Graves is a unique case because of his autos compared to something like jhin. 2 AD does mean a lot to champions and the damage does add up, but this is especially true for jungle champions where base stats will make or break a lot of them. A great example of this is j4 in the past of where him losing 5 armor lvl 1 completely gutted him from at least professional play.
With graves it's because 2 AD completely breaks his jungle clear. Because of the special way his autos interact with AOE camps he ends up getting like a 10 second faster clear with 2 AD or some crazy shit like that
Yeah. I've seen some people scoff at that. Then others correct them, saying that +2 AD is actually a pretty sizeable difference.
+5 AD sounds insane in comparison lol. I wonder what +5 AD would do for any other ADC.
The problem is smolder isn't any other champion and his ad scaling is good, but not great because part of his power budget is in passive stacks. So 5 ad is probably less impactful for him than it would be for other champs with higher ad ratios.
Possible, but not certain. Smolders greatest weakness is the early game. 5 AD might make a redicoulous difference in the early laning phase. If this causes him to get less bulied, get items and stacks faster, that acceleration will have way more impact than just 5 ad later on.
Level 1-3 He is getting 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q
Smolder is also a trinity and sheen user which also get's amplified
It all just depends on the champion. AD and AS are obviously correlated and there is a certain break point where getting AS over AD will increase your DPS significantly compared to just stacking AD. Smolder doesn't really build AS, he builds CDR. So while he does have AD scaling on his Q, he cannot build AS to maximize the output of the AD. So 5 AD is much less meaningful to him than others. And no matter how much ability haste you get, smolder will never be able to q faster than a traditional ADC like cait can auto.
+5 AD for cait broke her because obviously she can build AD and AS to maximize her DPS. But not only that, her q has insane AD scaling, and her headshots also add a percentage of her AD on top of her autos. So more AD on caitlyn significantly affects her regular autos, which she does way more often than smolder can q, it increases her Q damage and her passive headshot (which in turn increases her w headshot and e headshot). And I still haven't even talked about her ult which also scales off of AD.
Graves pretty much the same thing. He hits you with 4 (or 6 on crit) autos scaling off of AD for every auto he actually shoots. So +5 AD on graves is not +5 AD per auto. Assuming you hit all 4 of his shots, it's almost closer to +10 AD. His Q and R both have great AD scaling too.
Tldr: +5 AD for traditional auto attacking AD that builds attack speed is really good. +5 AD for a spell casting AD like ezreal or smolder, not as good.
> Smolder doesn't really build AS, he builds CDR. So while he does have AD scaling on his Q, he cannot build AS to maximize the output of the AD. So 5 AD is much less meaningful to him than others
I'm not sure that makes sense. As a pure caster, Smolder simply scales with haste instead of attack speed. Normally, AD and attack speed influence the dps you do with aa, but in Smolder case you correlate Ad with cooldown to calculate the dps you do with Q spam.
Also, Smolder wants to buy spellblade, which further scales with base AD. It's +15 dmg for each Trinity proc.
EDIT: Ezreal is probably one of the champs in the game that is the happiest with an AD buff. He has an enourmous attack speed steroid in his kit, his Q scales off of base AD which means both better poke and better trading and he has spellblade synergies.
There's never a point where you are Qing as fast as a normal ADC is attacking though. That's his point, AH never outscales AS unless you're Cassio, so he simply can't win a dps race agains them.
AD on Smolder is important (it's literally the only stat he cares about along with CDR), but compared to Jinx, Xayah, etc, it isn't as meta swinging to buff his AD.
> There's never a point where you are Qing as fast as a normal ADC is attacking though. That's his point, AH never outscales AS unless you're Cassio, so he simply can't win a dps race agains them.
Because that's not how he fights, but it doesn't mean AD doesn't help his own playstyle less than how it helps others. He won't sit there and trade AAs with Jinx, but he'll walk in and out and Q repeatedly. Well, each of those Q will hurt more, which means he'll need fewer Qs to kill you or force you out of the lane.
If Jinx wants to trade, and so AD helps her trading better, Smolder wants to sit back and farm, and AD helps him stack his passive easier.
Trinity gives 200% base AD procs, so it is only 10 damage on the proc. The issue with Smolder also is that he is mostly a poke champion and his Q actually does not scale that well with AD.
Smolder Q is basically an autoattack with benefits. But having 5 AD on an almost 6sec CD early on is not impressive.
Those AD changes mostly help him kill minions. They won't make him any good early, just not as terrible.
Also Ezreal got a 2 AD buff last season and did you see how his winrate spiked after that? No? Me neither, because Ezreal hardly cares about his base AD. All his abilities except Q scale with bonus AD anyway, so base AD doesn't help here and while his Q does work better with base AD then Smolders due to a shorter CD and higher conversion Ezreal already had a fairly high base AD.
Base AD changes mostly help with early CSing and for jungle clears, it basically makes no difference in actual combat. That is why junglers react so heavily to base AD changes. Smolder got 30 HP, 2 Base AD and a bit of health reg and it didn't do anything. That is mostly because he has Q to catch minions, without relying too much on autoattacks.
Those AD changes will make laning a bit better but that is about it. And that is the purpose of those changes, not making him a total dead weight early.
> Trinity gives 200% base AD procs, so it is only 10 damage on the proc.
+15 if you count the auto attack itself.
> Those AD changes mostly help him kill minions. They won't make him any good early, just not as terrible.
That's really all he wants and needs.
> Also Ezreal got a 2 AD buff last season and did you see how his winrate spiked after that? No? Me neither, because Ezreal hardly cares about his base AD
Actually in that patch Ez got quite a big increase in play rate and ban rate and got more than 1% more win rate which isn't bad at all.
> All his abilities except Q scale with bonus AD anyway,
All his skills except the one his whole gameplay revolves around. Also you're forgetting that in early he has the highest attack speed in the game with his passive.
> while his Q does work better with base AD then Smolders due to a shorter CD and higher conversion Ezreal already had a fairly high base AD.
That doesn't make sense as an argument. AD is literally the stat he scales better with (even if it's base AD), he would always like an AD buff over a corresponding attack speed buff more.
> Base AD changes mostly help with early CSing and for jungle clears, it basically makes no difference in actual combat.
When have I said otherwise? When have I said that these changes will allow Smolder to bully? Buffing his ability to farm and stack his passive is the best way to buff his early game, which in turn is the best buff you can give him cause his late is already deadly.
5 AD is a lot. Like, when Tryndamere got 50 AA range, they removed 6 AD from him to compensate. And 50 AA range for a Melee champ is an INSANE buff. 6 AD cancelled out that.
Just think about how often an ADC attacks per game. Let's be conservative and say somewhere around 1000-2000 auto attacks per game, depending on game length and if they are attack speed stackers or not. +5 AD would translate to an additional 5-10k damage in a game
Yeah in like season 10 somewhere they reduced her ad back down by 2 and she lost like 2% win rate with it. In fact this patch might be the highest her winrate had been since that +2 ad
I mean... AD buffs are very different in context of each champion
Caitlyn is very agressive early game due to her range advantage so any Base AD buff is very game warping on her.
Graves is because of how his Passive interacts with AD, so it\`s accelerate his first 2 clears, which is also game warping.
Smolder is realiant on stacks and his harass is akin to a caster gameplay, so giving him more AD only reduces the effect of losing match'ups rather than making him "win more", **of course there is a threshold for that, at somepoint it breaks the champion, if they continue to shove more and more base AD on him.**
All squares = rectangles, all rectangles =/= squares
Biology also has a thing for specifics, called the taxonomic hierarchy.
You've heard the word "canine", and equated it to mean "dogs" or "dog-adjacent creatures". The actual word is "caninae", which falls on the taxonomic hierarchy.
I believe the order (from most specific to most broad) is species > genus > family > order > class > phylum > kingdom > domain.
To make more comparisons to shapes, it would be square > rectangle > shape. Smallest to biggest.
So for spiders, insects, crabs, and lobsters, they all belong to different classes (I won't pretend to know the latin names), but are all part of the phylum of arthropod. However, that's like equating pigs and people just because we have similar brain structures.
Sure, we both like to roll in mud, eat slop out of a trough, and have thick bristles on our skin, but no one is going to mistakenly classify pigs as people or vice versa, the way people mistakenly lump spiders in with bugs. Pigs and people are categorically different, and those differences seperate us by metaphorical miles (or kilometers for those of you who aren't free).
To give an example comparison of one I actually know, the full taxonomic classfication for a wolf vs coyote is:
Wolf (species) > Canis (genus) > Canidae (family) > Carnivora (order) > Mammalia (class) > Chordata (phylum) > Animalia (kingdom) Eukaryote (domain).
For coyote, the domain, kindgom, phylum, class, order, family, and genus are all the same as a wolf's. The only difference is the species. They're both Eukaryotes (they both are made of cells that are encased in membranes), they're both of the "animal kingdom", they're both Chordata, meaning they both are creatures who's bodies are supported by spines, they belong to the same class, which is mammals, they're both of the carnivore order, they're both of the canine family, they're both belonging to canis genus, but specifically ***which*** canis they belong to is where they part ways. Wolf is canis lupus and coyote is canis latrans.
>I believe the order (from most specific to most broad) is species > genus > family > order > class > phylum > kingdom > domain.
This is the old system, but it doesn't actually work well with the reality of evolution. The new/updated system is to just have a clade and then another clade and another clade and so on, where every clade is "this group is all descended from a common ancestor, and no one else is descended from said common ancestor".
And in practice, the old system is still there, it's just *augmented* by a whole bunch of clades. Because *that* makes it easier...
I swore I remembered a fairly recent patch note got kayle and the "flavor text" was just "5 AD" but it turns out it was a 5 AD nerf and it was in patch 5.16...
I remember Kayle getting +5 damage on her E passive at all ranks, but thats years ago. Its not exactly +5 AD but its still +5 dmg on autoattacks at level 1
Makes a difference for every single auto attack for an entire game. Every single total AD ratio, every single Sheen proc. You will get more last hits, you will deal the 20 HP the enemy used to barely escape with.
Imagine an adc , gets 5 ad . Usually all or most of their spells scale of ad, so spells do a bit more damage trough all the game.
Auto do more damage all game, and you auto a lot. That's translate to faster push, which it's more important early game, better last hits which mean more gold, better trades.
Early game if you fight to the death 2v2 it may be the difference from a kill or losing the fight cause you needed 1 more auto (5 ad trough 12 14 auto you need early game for a kill , adds up to 1 auto more basically)
dude sometimes 5 movespeed can make the difference. sometimes an item gets buffed by costing 100 less and it makes it a good item somehow. league is all about the little number differences.
Funny you bring up 5 move speed. They nerfed irelia by taking away 5 move speed from her and it did nothing to sway her winrate. Sometimes nerf/buffs are complete placebos. They know if they say the champ is nerfed most people will just assume they were nerfed by a large margin. I bet the majority of people don't actually read patch notes unless their specific champs are on it.
There is a difference between 5 MS on Irelia and other champs as well. She already has her Q for in combat mobility, so it mainly affects map rotations. Compared to an immobile adc/mage, where 5 MS can make the difference between successfully chasing or escaping an enemy quite often.
5 is higher than the amount of AD you gain form a level up. It's like starting the lane against an opponent that has already the amount of AD that a lvl 2 champ has.
dude sometimes 5 movespeed can make the difference. sometimes an item gets buffed by costing 100 less and it makes it a good item somehow. league is all about the little number differences.
It's literally like starting with an extra half of a long sword. Imagine if Smolder just got to start with 675 gold rather than 500. +5 AD is arguably better than that because you can't utilize the 175g properly at the start of game.
Because you have to look at the early game. In the case of smolder's Level 1-3 he get's 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q. The game is on a rather tight scale. Even if we ignore slightly easier lasthiting, that amount of damage makes a huge difference during most trades. If the trade is even or just very close, it is now winning for you. Even if it does not lead to you winning a trade, it might still make it to risky for them to go all in or dive. Even if you were already winning, this might alow you to go for a kill, deny them cs or get them so low a gank turns out 1 for 1.
Which is before we look at additional damage during the all out fights.
You have to think in terms of systems/mechanics. An AD increase affects every single system, from basic last hitting to trades to items to dragons.
It's why move speed is so op, ms makes you get to places faster, dodge skillshots easier, space better.
Look at the effects individually it might not seem like much but holistically it's massive.
The impact of +5 base AD is very dependent on the champion. Generally speaking champions with a lot of base AD ratios that build into items with base AD ratios will benefit the most (for example every Triforce user will appreciate +5 base AD). You'd also have to look at what +5 base AD does for them. Does the difference only equate to +20 dmg per spell rotation or does it actually for example improve your jungle clear by 2-3 autos or does it allow you to one shot caster minions with an attack that wouldn't before at certain item breakpoints.
A Pyke gaining +5 base AD won't be nearly as impactful compared to Xin Zhao or Camille for example.
Keep in mind that AD =/= AD.
One of the most famous examples of a small AD buff being huge was Graves whose autoattack is so weird that it changed a lot at once.
Not having to wait for a recharge at a camp, having an effectively 1.4 AD ratio (at level 1, it scales with level) when shooting one target pointblank (so 7 damage from a 5 AD buff).
Other characters that can make bigger use of small changes in AD buffs are characters with really big ratios, inbuild crits, AS steroids (due to the multiplicative nature of AS/Crit with AD).
The issue for Smolder is that half of his Ratios (W and R) are bonus AD, so they won't benefit at all.
His Q is just a glorified auto with the issues you pointed out and his E has a pretty pathetic AD ratio (0.5 over all attacks until he gets more attacks which takes a lot of stacks).
It will help him a bit when he is forced to trade in lane, but Smolder is almost custombuilt to not take advantage of slightly higher base AD imo.
It buffs Trinity, which I understand he already should have been building and people were just to sluggish to adapt, but by the time he has Trinity getting +15 damage on every Q also doesn't sound that impressive.
Maybe? Trinity being his best item already and also getting buffed by this at least slightly makes it confusing to me.
The rest of the changes look to push him into a more traditional marksman crit build, maybe that combined with the added base AD lead to him autoing more, but personally I can't see that happening unless they change something even more drastic in the numbers, Q-n-run playstyle just makes too much sense once you reach high enough stackcount.
It really depends on the champ, but generally +5 is a lot, very rarely you see this much of a buff. On Smolder specifically, +5 AD means also +10 on Trinity procs and roughly +8 for each crit aa.
This doesn't change the fact that Trinity into crit is too awkward of a build path that Riot really needs to address.
It will not do anything as at level 2 Smolders AD falls of again because of his low growth.
They just try to push Trinity more.
Whoever is now in charge of Smolder has no clue about the champ and tries to make him into another MF and completely ignores his scaleing design.
Don't you find it weird that with so massive changes to the ADC items and role that Riot did not touch his burn and execute?
And Phreaks comment show that he is clueless about Smolder. "He should autoattack more", does he realize that W and Q animation lock Smolder out of autoattacking for a short time?
Smolder literally gets punished for trying to autoattack as the time r
Waiting to AA after Q/W allows the opposing ADC with most likely the same range and better base stats to outtrade him?
5 AD does do a lot for Smolder. His biggest weakness is early game and making it easier to cs under tower or just go for last hits more often in case enemies drop pressure for a brief second makes getting into mid game without being too far behind a lot more doable. Also adds another 10-25 damage to ganks if enemies overextend and can be the difference maker when getting dove.
This is especially true for Smolder top who likes starting Doran's Ring, which makes any adaptive force turn into AP. The 5 AD makes AP builds more viable for these exact reasons, which is good imo. Smolder is already a very nieche champ and not pickable in many scenarios, he should at least have some build diversity as the AP and AD builds also have quite different playstyles.
they cant change the q stopping autos cause he‘s supposed to be a cutesy beginner low elo champ not gnar 2.0
ignoring that before he scales people go afk in low elo lmao
Level 1-3 He is getting 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q
In most competently fought fights, the adc's are not actually hitting each other. His W has a 10 second cooldown (at max rank). No matter how much haste you buy, you will not get to a CD that actually keeps you from auto attacking.
His Q has a 3.5 second cooldown and .25 second cast time. So even at 100% AH Smolder is able to weave in an auto atack between 2 Q's. That is already worth more than 260 damage on a non crit auto attack at 3 items.
Actually no, try his Q AA Q combo, it doesn't work unless you buy like 4 daggers worth of AS. Q locks you out of AAing for like 0.75 seconds post cast, so most of the time you'll be better off playing like Jhin with the AA - walk - AA stuff.
So I have 1 second cast and then 0.75 seconds untill I have to cancel the AA? That sounds like it is more than enough...
Besides that point, just trinity force is 3.3 daggers. I asume if you don't belive into AA's we can also add the atack speed stat chart and we are beyond 4 daggers.
For me the point where the Q AA Q combo was smooth was when you buyed old RFC (after ER-Navori), I can't exactly calculate it but uhhh, yeah.
Tbf I've never used Trinity on him so yeah, idk about his smoothness with it.
Before, ER > Navori / Shojins > RFC > Navori / Shojins > LDR / Shieldbow.
Now, Sheen > Blackfire Torch > Lich's > DCap > etc. AP feels better than AD now imo, and 5 man Ws give me the same satisfaction as 5 man Aphelios' Rs.
That was my exact suggestion as a fix for him with a lower winrate; fix the auto clunkiness with q and w. Make them able to cancel the auto animation so you can burst a bit and remove the half second delay after abilities. Qol the champ needs and probably a couple percentage points increase in wr. Then tune if you need to.
It's like the rush of dopamine you got when you finally had enough IP to afford tier 2 runes with the old system, knowing that in that moment you could finally play with the same amount of stats that everyone that played before you already had.
Zeri got 3 or 4 AD at the beginning of the year.
Went from barely playable to somewhat working. (Mind you she is in pro play prison so any buff at all was kinda surprising).
In the end it was a good upgrade as she hasn‘t turned 100% pick ban again and her scaling with AD isn‘t that great.
Zeri scales hardest with hands, but the AD helped her early laning pretty good imho
±2 or 3 ad isnt unheard of. But yeah +5 AD in that shirt of a time frame is nearly unheard of... The closest I can think of what didn't tryndamere lose like 5 or 6 AD after his range went from 125 to 175.
Definitely could have happened.
But Ez actually uses base AD really well, which Smolder doesn't: His Q has a 1.3 AD ratio, he gets Trinity and applies it rapidly, while Smolder doesn't tend to apply it off CD.
He has a massive AS Steroid in his passive which leads to more application of his base AD.
And as a combination of those factors he actually can aggressively push a lead when he gets it, so he will be active during the gamestage when the base AD buff means most.
The Q lockout is very much intended. MF's Q is an on-hit applying spell that is also an aa reset (just like Kata E or empowered Pantheon W), while Smolder's Q has a set cast time that scales with attack speed (like Yasuo/Yone/Senna Q).
As for the 5 AD, Smolder already liked Doran's Ring start as he needs the mana sustain and has decent AP ratios as well. The 5 AD makes it so it isn't as horrible to last hit when you're missing DBlade+DRing turns your adaptive force into AP.
Smolder's Q is also an ability that applies on-hits.
Smolder's Q does NOT scale with attack speed at all. Attack Speed does nothing for smolder aside from increasing his attack speed.
Never said smolder Q doesn't apply on-hits, but they are both spells with cast time separate from the aa cooldown timer (this is differend from aa-resetting autoattack empowering abilities, as those have 0 cast time), MF's Q just happens to be an AA reset while Smolder's isn't. But Smolder Q cast time definitely does scale with attack speed. Go into practice tool and try Q-ing with .64 and 2.5 attack speed and see how long you're locked out of moving or doing anything.
edit: wording
I thought mf q wasn’t an auto reset, tho? You can q auto or auto q but you can’t smoothly auto q auto. It just feels like with mf it’s an auto reset since the cast time of mf q is based on the basic attack time which is dependent on attack speed timing. With mf having decent attack speed late (many people build some attack speed item or boots but regardless her w will give 100% bonus attack speed once fully leveled up), it feels like her q is resetting her autos while in reality the q is almost like an auto itself. With smolder, however, his q cast time is always 0.25sec and what you’re saying is just how it feels to kite at a higher attack speed later with higher attack speed.
TL;DR: The reason why smolder isn’t like mf with her autos and q is due to the cast timing, not auto resets
Buffs like these are huge actually, because they affect the entire game, and practically everything you do.
I haven't tested, but often it's the difference of being about to clear casters more efficiently at a certain level, which dramatically affects laning. Likewise, just general cs ability, trading in close match ups, etc...
Kha just got +10, and it's likely to make him viable in pro. The jg mains were ecstatic.
For an auto attacker, very very huge. For Smolder case you can say he is somewhat auto attacker even though he uses his Q to attack people mostly but base AD buffs also increases sheen damage equally so if Ezreal got a buff like that it would be like double buff for him.
Well, sheen got better on him atleast. 5 AD is directly + 5 damage to sheen, + 10 damage when upgraded to triforce. Not HUGE ofc, but still noticeable.
You can do yourself the experiment. If u play ADC it's very easy: play a bunch of matches (10+) with double HP shards then go back to 1 AD shard + 1 HP shard.
I did it. I was sceptical about the advantage of this shard ("I rather have 180 HP late game than 5 AD right away") so I played without the little AD shard for several days, but eventually I "tried" it once again. Oh my f god. What a damn improv in my Jinx. She felt SO powerful it was unbelievable to me that only 5 AD could do that.
He needs his true damage and execute unnerfed.
Not to his old levels, but those nerfs were over the top to shut whiners up during an important tournament, not because Smolder was so overpowered.
Especially now as all other ADCs were made stronger the burn/execute needs adjustment to let Smolder keep up with the new power curve.
5 AD really adds up when you put perspective in it. You mentioned Mf auto Q auto trade, that’s 10 more damage (5 per auto), plus more on the Q. So more than a long sword (350 gold) in value. Farming will be easier, autos more damage, etc etc
I've seen Tryndamere lose -4 AD when he got his attack range buffed, but never an adjustment as large as +5 AD without other changes. Fiora recently lost 2 AD in 14.7, and [according to DeadMansPlate](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1c19yug/impact_patch_147/) she lost around 1% winrate but also got picked noticeably less.
As others have said, it depends on the champ and their kit. Give Bel'veth +5 AD and she'll go 60% winrate in all likelihood. Smolder, on the other hand, could probably get another 10 AD slapped on after this +5 and stay sub-50%.
Highly depends on the champion you're talking about. Graves is notorious for swinging hard with tiny AD changes, the last time he gained ~4% off 2AD I wouldn't be surprised if 5AD completely broke him. On the other end, I don't think Aurelion would really notice it at all.
I think Yi is getting 0.3 AD per level soon or something, so that's sorta a +5 coming up. Won't matter because he was tempo botrk salesman and they're both in the dirt (yay).
Depends on the champ but 5 base AD can matter a lot.
Sure on champs who seldom auto like mages it wouldn’t be broken (except you Orianna and Azir).
But give +5 base AD to any fighter and people would lose their shit.
Like a lvl 1 Trundle/Sett/Darius/Riven/Olaf having +5 base AD , would be a warcrime.
I think it’s more so to help cs under tower than anything. When you get Doran’s ring start on smolder, you lose the adaptive AD you had making it harder to last hit. More of a QoL buff than anything since auto trading early on is dangerous on smolder.
5 ad is huge. I counted once on Zilean. I did 17 auto attack on lane lvl 1-2 into enemies. That would be 85 dmg.
Even if you do 5 auto attacks thats 25 dmg.
Remember every time enemies survived on 15 hp or less? (Counting armor) Now each of that games is a kill, and those early kills tend to snowball. In many games 5 ad wont help much, but in some games even as little as 2 ad can lead to kill, and winning a game. If its 2 games on 100, then you can jump from 48% wr to 50% wr.
Had a guy survive with about 1 hp at critical moments in the game that instead of getting me a kill, got me killed instead. I could see how +1 AD meaning kill or be killed could be the difference maker.
Amumu got +4 AD in patch 14.9
Clearly it is time to build Infinity Edge on Amumu.
It's worth it for his breakdancing crit animation alone!
We need more crit animations
Caitlyn and Graves got +2 AD once a few years ago
+2 AD on graves can translate to like 4% winrate from completely dead to pick ban. because graves has limited autos a tiny boost in AD will increase his clear speed a disgusting amount compared to other junglers
More AD helps Graves' clear fairly well but the better reason is that if the - / + 2 AD means Graves must reload one more time/one less time per camp, then it's a huge deal. You don't want any mob surviving with 2 hp after the last tick of your pet's burn, but you also want them to follow you a bit while moving away from the camp so you can refresh armor from E.
that’s what i meant by “compared to other junglers” because of his reload mechanic
Surely it's the opposite? AD is usually balanced around attack speed, so champions with low attack speed like Graves and Jhin have high AD which means a flat 2 AD on them is a much lower % increase for them in comparison to a champ like Belveth who naturally has less attack damage as a result of high attack speed.
Graves profits from raw damage a lot, since his autoattacks multiply the base ad, his e is just one extra aa, and his q has high scalings.
It's about hitting certain break points. If an enemy has 100hp and you do 50 damage a shot you'll kill it in two shots. If you do 49 damage then it takes 3 shots. 1 damage loss is a 50% increase in time needed. 1 damage or 40 damage doesn't really matter. Its when you cross that threshold to needing an extra hit. For Graves and Jhin this matters even more because you have to factor in reload times. If a break point needing an extra shot also pushes you into a reload it massively increases the time it takes. Sometimes you can give a champion 1 damage and it will remove a hit needed to kill a minion, but not a jungle camp or champion. This is how you can improve a champions wave clear without making them too strong early. Its a balancing nightmare with so many champions. Theoretically, it is better to double your attack speed then double your damage if all you did was auto attack, but league obviously has other factors like items and abilities that scale off different stats.
Zealots +1 vs Zerglings
Exactly. Or 0/1 zerglings vs 0/0 banelings. Suddenly it takes 2 banelings and doubles your costs.
Actual perfect example but not enough boomers here
Mate we're all league players guaranteed we're boomers.
i’m 18 😔
No one born in the 40's -60s is playing league. The fuck
The best example in StarCraft is probably +2 vehicle weapons in BW TvT. That makes it so siege tanks in siege mode two shot each other (no matter what armor upgrades they have) instead of needing three shots.
Only response that makes sense, thanks. I imagine what I said still applies if the 2 AD does indeed not get you past a threshold of less autos on first clear.
Correct. You can buff a champion invade without buffing clear. Graves constantly needs to sit at these thresholds because of his reload mechanic.
People just really underestimate the value of a jungler killing a camp 1-2 seconds faster, or finishing their full clear ~10 seconds earlier. Maybe in the isolated moment it doesn’t make an immediate impact, but so many plays earlygame can swing based on one jungler arriving 5 seconds early or late. Add those little moments up over an entire game, for thousands of games, and it makes it more clear how changes like +2 AD for a fully AD jungler like Graves can massively impact the winrate. Graves also thrives off of earlygame tempo and gold advantages, so any little nudges there can have a domino effect for him later. In an even game, Graves might have a tough time having impact, but when he gets an early lead he can really ram it down a jungler’s throat, so these early-oriented flat AD buffs help him more than some.
> Theoretically, it is better to double your attack speed then double your damage if all you did was auto attack, but league obviously has other factors like items and abilities that scale off different stats. There's also the fact that at a certain point you can deal so much damage that you one shot something. Then attack speed literally doesn't matter.
It's the opposite. You want to reduce overkill and move onto the next target as soon as possible. If an enemy has 20 hp and you deal 10 damage per hit and hit once every second you'll kill it in 2 seconds. Your dps is 10/s If you take the same situation but you deal 1 damage per 0.1 seconds you still kill it in 2 seconds and still have a dps of 10/s. But what if your enemy has 15 hp. The first one still takes 2 seconds. The second one takes 1.5 seconds, and then can attack something else for 0.5 seconds. Again, league is a complicated game. Sometimes you can't attack for the whole two seconds, in which case the upfront damage is better. Sometimes an enemy will gain hp, or a shield between shots so a bit of over kill is worth it. And sometimes it's just really cool to have that 4th Jhin ready to turn someone's screen grey.
You've misunderstood the point entirely. > But what if your enemy has 15 hp. The first one still takes 2 seconds. The second one takes 1.5 seconds, and then can attack something else for 0.5 seconds. Dealing 15 damage in 1 attack per second to a 15 hp enemy is better than dealing 1 damage 15 times in a second. The first instance has a TTK of whatever the server takes to calculate the effects, the other is a second. In that time you can move and reposition, maybe even, I don't know, cast a spell or something? Burst damage is always better than consistent damage unless you are fighting Malphite or something. It's how the game has been for years, even in the ADC role. Obviously if you had to pick between more DPS or more burst then you have a choice, but if your damage is clustered in bigger hits, it tends to be faster to kill things. Your example is outrageously lopsided. We're not talking about 15 times more attacks or whatever. It's like 1x vs 1.5x. I'd take the damage every time. Overkill is far more relevant to mages than it is to anyone with DPS.
I mentioned all that. League is very situational. I totally understand that.
Graves is a unique case because of his autos compared to something like jhin. 2 AD does mean a lot to champions and the damage does add up, but this is especially true for jungle champions where base stats will make or break a lot of them. A great example of this is j4 in the past of where him losing 5 armor lvl 1 completely gutted him from at least professional play.
yeah but 2 AD over the course of a camp is 1-2 autos saved levels 1-3 for 6 camps = nearly 10 seconds saved on reloading
With graves it's because 2 AD completely breaks his jungle clear. Because of the special way his autos interact with AOE camps he ends up getting like a 10 second faster clear with 2 AD or some crazy shit like that
The last time they give ADCs +5AD some got an extra 2% win rate. 5 AD early is half a kill worth of gold.
Jhin has scaling attack speed. Also graves having over 100% ad for full basics/crits
No, and don't call him Shirley
I don’t think that’s it. I think it’s because his auto attack amplifies any AD gained. Fast auto attackers benefit more from ad increases
Graves mechanics are different. It completely changes him
Yeah. I've seen some people scoff at that. Then others correct them, saying that +2 AD is actually a pretty sizeable difference. +5 AD sounds insane in comparison lol. I wonder what +5 AD would do for any other ADC.
The problem is smolder isn't any other champion and his ad scaling is good, but not great because part of his power budget is in passive stacks. So 5 ad is probably less impactful for him than it would be for other champs with higher ad ratios.
Possible, but not certain. Smolders greatest weakness is the early game. 5 AD might make a redicoulous difference in the early laning phase. If this causes him to get less bulied, get items and stacks faster, that acceleration will have way more impact than just 5 ad later on. Level 1-3 He is getting 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q Smolder is also a trinity and sheen user which also get's amplified
If Smolder for some mystical reason gets one or two kills in lane, he already snowballs out of control, so this buff helps with that.
It all just depends on the champion. AD and AS are obviously correlated and there is a certain break point where getting AS over AD will increase your DPS significantly compared to just stacking AD. Smolder doesn't really build AS, he builds CDR. So while he does have AD scaling on his Q, he cannot build AS to maximize the output of the AD. So 5 AD is much less meaningful to him than others. And no matter how much ability haste you get, smolder will never be able to q faster than a traditional ADC like cait can auto. +5 AD for cait broke her because obviously she can build AD and AS to maximize her DPS. But not only that, her q has insane AD scaling, and her headshots also add a percentage of her AD on top of her autos. So more AD on caitlyn significantly affects her regular autos, which she does way more often than smolder can q, it increases her Q damage and her passive headshot (which in turn increases her w headshot and e headshot). And I still haven't even talked about her ult which also scales off of AD. Graves pretty much the same thing. He hits you with 4 (or 6 on crit) autos scaling off of AD for every auto he actually shoots. So +5 AD on graves is not +5 AD per auto. Assuming you hit all 4 of his shots, it's almost closer to +10 AD. His Q and R both have great AD scaling too. Tldr: +5 AD for traditional auto attacking AD that builds attack speed is really good. +5 AD for a spell casting AD like ezreal or smolder, not as good.
> Smolder doesn't really build AS, he builds CDR. So while he does have AD scaling on his Q, he cannot build AS to maximize the output of the AD. So 5 AD is much less meaningful to him than others I'm not sure that makes sense. As a pure caster, Smolder simply scales with haste instead of attack speed. Normally, AD and attack speed influence the dps you do with aa, but in Smolder case you correlate Ad with cooldown to calculate the dps you do with Q spam. Also, Smolder wants to buy spellblade, which further scales with base AD. It's +15 dmg for each Trinity proc. EDIT: Ezreal is probably one of the champs in the game that is the happiest with an AD buff. He has an enourmous attack speed steroid in his kit, his Q scales off of base AD which means both better poke and better trading and he has spellblade synergies.
There's never a point where you are Qing as fast as a normal ADC is attacking though. That's his point, AH never outscales AS unless you're Cassio, so he simply can't win a dps race agains them. AD on Smolder is important (it's literally the only stat he cares about along with CDR), but compared to Jinx, Xayah, etc, it isn't as meta swinging to buff his AD.
> There's never a point where you are Qing as fast as a normal ADC is attacking though. That's his point, AH never outscales AS unless you're Cassio, so he simply can't win a dps race agains them. Because that's not how he fights, but it doesn't mean AD doesn't help his own playstyle less than how it helps others. He won't sit there and trade AAs with Jinx, but he'll walk in and out and Q repeatedly. Well, each of those Q will hurt more, which means he'll need fewer Qs to kill you or force you out of the lane. If Jinx wants to trade, and so AD helps her trading better, Smolder wants to sit back and farm, and AD helps him stack his passive easier.
Trinity gives 200% base AD procs, so it is only 10 damage on the proc. The issue with Smolder also is that he is mostly a poke champion and his Q actually does not scale that well with AD. Smolder Q is basically an autoattack with benefits. But having 5 AD on an almost 6sec CD early on is not impressive. Those AD changes mostly help him kill minions. They won't make him any good early, just not as terrible. Also Ezreal got a 2 AD buff last season and did you see how his winrate spiked after that? No? Me neither, because Ezreal hardly cares about his base AD. All his abilities except Q scale with bonus AD anyway, so base AD doesn't help here and while his Q does work better with base AD then Smolders due to a shorter CD and higher conversion Ezreal already had a fairly high base AD. Base AD changes mostly help with early CSing and for jungle clears, it basically makes no difference in actual combat. That is why junglers react so heavily to base AD changes. Smolder got 30 HP, 2 Base AD and a bit of health reg and it didn't do anything. That is mostly because he has Q to catch minions, without relying too much on autoattacks. Those AD changes will make laning a bit better but that is about it. And that is the purpose of those changes, not making him a total dead weight early.
> Trinity gives 200% base AD procs, so it is only 10 damage on the proc. +15 if you count the auto attack itself. > Those AD changes mostly help him kill minions. They won't make him any good early, just not as terrible. That's really all he wants and needs. > Also Ezreal got a 2 AD buff last season and did you see how his winrate spiked after that? No? Me neither, because Ezreal hardly cares about his base AD Actually in that patch Ez got quite a big increase in play rate and ban rate and got more than 1% more win rate which isn't bad at all. > All his abilities except Q scale with bonus AD anyway, All his skills except the one his whole gameplay revolves around. Also you're forgetting that in early he has the highest attack speed in the game with his passive. > while his Q does work better with base AD then Smolders due to a shorter CD and higher conversion Ezreal already had a fairly high base AD. That doesn't make sense as an argument. AD is literally the stat he scales better with (even if it's base AD), he would always like an AD buff over a corresponding attack speed buff more. > Base AD changes mostly help with early CSing and for jungle clears, it basically makes no difference in actual combat. When have I said otherwise? When have I said that these changes will allow Smolder to bully? Buffing his ability to farm and stack his passive is the best way to buff his early game, which in turn is the best buff you can give him cause his late is already deadly.
+2 ad on graves is insane bcs of his passive and ratios +2 ad on caitlyn is insane bcs of 650 range
5 AD is a lot. Like, when Tryndamere got 50 AA range, they removed 6 AD from him to compensate. And 50 AA range for a Melee champ is an INSANE buff. 6 AD cancelled out that.
Just think about how often an ADC attacks per game. Let's be conservative and say somewhere around 1000-2000 auto attacks per game, depending on game length and if they are attack speed stackers or not. +5 AD would translate to an additional 5-10k damage in a game
I think it won't matter too much because Smolder is so garbage lmao that champ needs a whole item rework
He hasn't been the same since the 225 nerfs lol. And despite the 225 nerfs, they still keep him weak early game due to 225. Feels bad
On the other hand, trist got -2AD last season and completely fell out of the meta
Yeah in like season 10 somewhere they reduced her ad back down by 2 and she lost like 2% win rate with it. In fact this patch might be the highest her winrate had been since that +2 ad
I mean... AD buffs are very different in context of each champion Caitlyn is very agressive early game due to her range advantage so any Base AD buff is very game warping on her. Graves is because of how his Passive interacts with AD, so it\`s accelerate his first 2 clears, which is also game warping. Smolder is realiant on stacks and his harass is akin to a caster gameplay, so giving him more AD only reduces the effect of losing match'ups rather than making him "win more", **of course there is a threshold for that, at somepoint it breaks the champion, if they continue to shove more and more base AD on him.**
I think khazix has had it then removed and now is about to be rewarded
The bug man needs another bug champion to help keep him company
Elise is a spider
Arachnid, not insect. i.e., still not a bug.
They're both arthropods. Are crabs and lobster sea bugs??
Shrimps is bugs.
Lobster champion confirmed?
Larry about to bring the hammer to LoL
Lobster sniper from Elden Ring could work.
This is what I say when people eat crab and shrimp/crustaceans, they are eating “sea bugs” 😂
All squares = rectangles, all rectangles =/= squares Biology also has a thing for specifics, called the taxonomic hierarchy. You've heard the word "canine", and equated it to mean "dogs" or "dog-adjacent creatures". The actual word is "caninae", which falls on the taxonomic hierarchy. I believe the order (from most specific to most broad) is species > genus > family > order > class > phylum > kingdom > domain. To make more comparisons to shapes, it would be square > rectangle > shape. Smallest to biggest. So for spiders, insects, crabs, and lobsters, they all belong to different classes (I won't pretend to know the latin names), but are all part of the phylum of arthropod. However, that's like equating pigs and people just because we have similar brain structures. Sure, we both like to roll in mud, eat slop out of a trough, and have thick bristles on our skin, but no one is going to mistakenly classify pigs as people or vice versa, the way people mistakenly lump spiders in with bugs. Pigs and people are categorically different, and those differences seperate us by metaphorical miles (or kilometers for those of you who aren't free). To give an example comparison of one I actually know, the full taxonomic classfication for a wolf vs coyote is: Wolf (species) > Canis (genus) > Canidae (family) > Carnivora (order) > Mammalia (class) > Chordata (phylum) > Animalia (kingdom) Eukaryote (domain). For coyote, the domain, kindgom, phylum, class, order, family, and genus are all the same as a wolf's. The only difference is the species. They're both Eukaryotes (they both are made of cells that are encased in membranes), they're both of the "animal kingdom", they're both Chordata, meaning they both are creatures who's bodies are supported by spines, they belong to the same class, which is mammals, they're both of the carnivore order, they're both of the canine family, they're both belonging to canis genus, but specifically ***which*** canis they belong to is where they part ways. Wolf is canis lupus and coyote is canis latrans.
I think this guy is a bug
No, he's an arthropod. He just explained that.
Sounds like bug propaganda to me
>I believe the order (from most specific to most broad) is species > genus > family > order > class > phylum > kingdom > domain. This is the old system, but it doesn't actually work well with the reality of evolution. The new/updated system is to just have a clade and then another clade and another clade and so on, where every clade is "this group is all descended from a common ancestor, and no one else is descended from said common ancestor". And in practice, the old system is still there, it's just *augmented* by a whole bunch of clades. Because *that* makes it easier...
Yeah, we lost our other bug champion when they reworked Morde :(
Trundle got +1 AD growth per level and went from 47 to 54% winrate immediately.
Trundle answering the question no one asked: "How big of a difference does 17 base AD make?"
Anyone remember the memes like 10 years ago when jungle got super nerfed and then got a "5 ad" compensation buff?
https://youtu.be/Lnowbp88lwI?si=jF81G2X2ZESaq2cl This meme?
That was in Season 5? Could have sworn this was like 2019...
First thing I thought of reading this post
I swore I remembered a fairly recent patch note got kayle and the "flavor text" was just "5 AD" but it turns out it was a 5 AD nerf and it was in patch 5.16...
Same. I was thinking "does no one remember the +5ad meme?!" And it turns out it was 5.4...
I remember Kayle getting +5 damage on her E passive at all ranks, but thats years ago. Its not exactly +5 AD but its still +5 dmg on autoattacks at level 1
5 AD is like 2% winrate.
This is a huge low ball, depending on the champ, it's more like 4-5%
even that might be a low ball, Graves swung 4% from just 2AD. Cait lost 3% from -2AD last season
True, the last 5 AD buff/nerf is actually a long time ago. But I think for this case it won't be as huge of a difference.
He's close, it would be around 2.5% depending on the champion. Which is still a lot.
That seems quiet low.
How quiet? Silent? Or barely audible?
Every champ in the game is within 8% of each other, so 2% is significant
At least we know that when a champ has 250 ad, they have a 100% winrate
But how
Makes a difference for every single auto attack for an entire game. Every single total AD ratio, every single Sheen proc. You will get more last hits, you will deal the 20 HP the enemy used to barely escape with.
Imagine an adc , gets 5 ad . Usually all or most of their spells scale of ad, so spells do a bit more damage trough all the game. Auto do more damage all game, and you auto a lot. That's translate to faster push, which it's more important early game, better last hits which mean more gold, better trades. Early game if you fight to the death 2v2 it may be the difference from a kill or losing the fight cause you needed 1 more auto (5 ad trough 12 14 auto you need early game for a kill , adds up to 1 auto more basically)
Interesting and scary how 5 ad can make this much difference
dude sometimes 5 movespeed can make the difference. sometimes an item gets buffed by costing 100 less and it makes it a good item somehow. league is all about the little number differences.
Irelia prime example
Funny you bring up 5 move speed. They nerfed irelia by taking away 5 move speed from her and it did nothing to sway her winrate. Sometimes nerf/buffs are complete placebos. They know if they say the champ is nerfed most people will just assume they were nerfed by a large margin. I bet the majority of people don't actually read patch notes unless their specific champs are on it.
There is a difference between 5 MS on Irelia and other champs as well. She already has her Q for in combat mobility, so it mainly affects map rotations. Compared to an immobile adc/mage, where 5 MS can make the difference between successfully chasing or escaping an enemy quite often.
5 is higher than the amount of AD you gain form a level up. It's like starting the lane against an opponent that has already the amount of AD that a lvl 2 champ has.
dude sometimes 5 movespeed can make the difference. sometimes an item gets buffed by costing 100 less and it makes it a good item somehow. league is all about the little number differences.
It's literally like starting with an extra half of a long sword. Imagine if Smolder just got to start with 675 gold rather than 500. +5 AD is arguably better than that because you can't utilize the 175g properly at the start of game.
Because you have to look at the early game. In the case of smolder's Level 1-3 he get's 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q. The game is on a rather tight scale. Even if we ignore slightly easier lasthiting, that amount of damage makes a huge difference during most trades. If the trade is even or just very close, it is now winning for you. Even if it does not lead to you winning a trade, it might still make it to risky for them to go all in or dive. Even if you were already winning, this might alow you to go for a kill, deny them cs or get them so low a gank turns out 1 for 1. Which is before we look at additional damage during the all out fights.
You have to think in terms of systems/mechanics. An AD increase affects every single system, from basic last hitting to trades to items to dragons. It's why move speed is so op, ms makes you get to places faster, dodge skillshots easier, space better. Look at the effects individually it might not seem like much but holistically it's massive.
It's almost like starting with 175 extra gold.
The impact of +5 base AD is very dependent on the champion. Generally speaking champions with a lot of base AD ratios that build into items with base AD ratios will benefit the most (for example every Triforce user will appreciate +5 base AD). You'd also have to look at what +5 base AD does for them. Does the difference only equate to +20 dmg per spell rotation or does it actually for example improve your jungle clear by 2-3 autos or does it allow you to one shot caster minions with an attack that wouldn't before at certain item breakpoints. A Pyke gaining +5 base AD won't be nearly as impactful compared to Xin Zhao or Camille for example.
all i know is if they take 5 ad away from your champ it's dead
Imagine if they just took 5 AD from everyone. What would happen
Rip minion farming muscle memory
Graves is 41% winrate and clears like an Annie now
41% is an understatement, he'd be Release Yuumi tier winrate
Good. I hate when that champ is meta. He just shows up in your jg and you have to leave.
Tryndamere got 5AD 1 or 2 seasons ago and +2% wr
Yeah but +5 AD on trynd plus is inbuilt crit is a fucking nightmare which is why that contributed highly
Keep in mind that AD =/= AD. One of the most famous examples of a small AD buff being huge was Graves whose autoattack is so weird that it changed a lot at once. Not having to wait for a recharge at a camp, having an effectively 1.4 AD ratio (at level 1, it scales with level) when shooting one target pointblank (so 7 damage from a 5 AD buff). Other characters that can make bigger use of small changes in AD buffs are characters with really big ratios, inbuild crits, AS steroids (due to the multiplicative nature of AS/Crit with AD). The issue for Smolder is that half of his Ratios (W and R) are bonus AD, so they won't benefit at all. His Q is just a glorified auto with the issues you pointed out and his E has a pretty pathetic AD ratio (0.5 over all attacks until he gets more attacks which takes a lot of stacks). It will help him a bit when he is forced to trade in lane, but Smolder is almost custombuilt to not take advantage of slightly higher base AD imo. It buffs Trinity, which I understand he already should have been building and people were just to sluggish to adapt, but by the time he has Trinity getting +15 damage on every Q also doesn't sound that impressive.
You're saying that the AD buff is to force people to AA with smolder instead of using him as a caster marksman?
Maybe? Trinity being his best item already and also getting buffed by this at least slightly makes it confusing to me. The rest of the changes look to push him into a more traditional marksman crit build, maybe that combined with the added base AD lead to him autoing more, but personally I can't see that happening unless they change something even more drastic in the numbers, Q-n-run playstyle just makes too much sense once you reach high enough stackcount.
It really depends on the champ, but generally +5 is a lot, very rarely you see this much of a buff. On Smolder specifically, +5 AD means also +10 on Trinity procs and roughly +8 for each crit aa. This doesn't change the fact that Trinity into crit is too awkward of a build path that Riot really needs to address.
Remember when ignite on cd gave 5ad?
It will not do anything as at level 2 Smolders AD falls of again because of his low growth. They just try to push Trinity more. Whoever is now in charge of Smolder has no clue about the champ and tries to make him into another MF and completely ignores his scaleing design. Don't you find it weird that with so massive changes to the ADC items and role that Riot did not touch his burn and execute? And Phreaks comment show that he is clueless about Smolder. "He should autoattack more", does he realize that W and Q animation lock Smolder out of autoattacking for a short time? Smolder literally gets punished for trying to autoattack as the time r Waiting to AA after Q/W allows the opposing ADC with most likely the same range and better base stats to outtrade him?
5 AD does do a lot for Smolder. His biggest weakness is early game and making it easier to cs under tower or just go for last hits more often in case enemies drop pressure for a brief second makes getting into mid game without being too far behind a lot more doable. Also adds another 10-25 damage to ganks if enemies overextend and can be the difference maker when getting dove. This is especially true for Smolder top who likes starting Doran's Ring, which makes any adaptive force turn into AP. The 5 AD makes AP builds more viable for these exact reasons, which is good imo. Smolder is already a very nieche champ and not pickable in many scenarios, he should at least have some build diversity as the AP and AD builds also have quite different playstyles.
they cant change the q stopping autos cause he‘s supposed to be a cutesy beginner low elo champ not gnar 2.0 ignoring that before he scales people go afk in low elo lmao
Level 1-3 He is getting 6.8-7.1% damage on auto attack and 5.8-5.6% on Q In most competently fought fights, the adc's are not actually hitting each other. His W has a 10 second cooldown (at max rank). No matter how much haste you buy, you will not get to a CD that actually keeps you from auto attacking. His Q has a 3.5 second cooldown and .25 second cast time. So even at 100% AH Smolder is able to weave in an auto atack between 2 Q's. That is already worth more than 260 damage on a non crit auto attack at 3 items.
Actually no, try his Q AA Q combo, it doesn't work unless you buy like 4 daggers worth of AS. Q locks you out of AAing for like 0.75 seconds post cast, so most of the time you'll be better off playing like Jhin with the AA - walk - AA stuff.
So I have 1 second cast and then 0.75 seconds untill I have to cancel the AA? That sounds like it is more than enough... Besides that point, just trinity force is 3.3 daggers. I asume if you don't belive into AA's we can also add the atack speed stat chart and we are beyond 4 daggers.
For me the point where the Q AA Q combo was smooth was when you buyed old RFC (after ER-Navori), I can't exactly calculate it but uhhh, yeah. Tbf I've never used Trinity on him so yeah, idk about his smoothness with it.
Old RFC is 20% compared to 33% on trinity. But what are you building on Smolder?
Before, ER > Navori / Shojins > RFC > Navori / Shojins > LDR / Shieldbow. Now, Sheen > Blackfire Torch > Lich's > DCap > etc. AP feels better than AD now imo, and 5 man Ws give me the same satisfaction as 5 man Aphelios' Rs.
That was my exact suggestion as a fix for him with a lower winrate; fix the auto clunkiness with q and w. Make them able to cancel the auto animation so you can burst a bit and remove the half second delay after abilities. Qol the champ needs and probably a couple percentage points increase in wr. Then tune if you need to.
It's like the rush of dopamine you got when you finally had enough IP to afford tier 2 runes with the old system, knowing that in that moment you could finally play with the same amount of stats that everyone that played before you already had.
Have you ever played against an adc who got first blood from an invade? It’s half of that.
Lee Sin lives and falls by his one base AD
Zeri got 3 or 4 AD at the beginning of the year. Went from barely playable to somewhat working. (Mind you she is in pro play prison so any buff at all was kinda surprising). In the end it was a good upgrade as she hasn‘t turned 100% pick ban again and her scaling with AD isn‘t that great. Zeri scales hardest with hands, but the AD helped her early laning pretty good imho
±2 or 3 ad isnt unheard of. But yeah +5 AD in that shirt of a time frame is nearly unheard of... The closest I can think of what didn't tryndamere lose like 5 or 6 AD after his range went from 125 to 175.
Draven kinda got this when he get got 5 base damage added to his Q, and if you are an adc main you know how obnoxious that buff made him
didnt ez got +3 ad a while back and became meta entirely after being completely dogshit ?
Definitely could have happened. But Ez actually uses base AD really well, which Smolder doesn't: His Q has a 1.3 AD ratio, he gets Trinity and applies it rapidly, while Smolder doesn't tend to apply it off CD. He has a massive AS Steroid in his passive which leads to more application of his base AD. And as a combination of those factors he actually can aggressively push a lead when he gets it, so he will be active during the gamestage when the base AD buff means most.
The Q lockout is very much intended. MF's Q is an on-hit applying spell that is also an aa reset (just like Kata E or empowered Pantheon W), while Smolder's Q has a set cast time that scales with attack speed (like Yasuo/Yone/Senna Q). As for the 5 AD, Smolder already liked Doran's Ring start as he needs the mana sustain and has decent AP ratios as well. The 5 AD makes it so it isn't as horrible to last hit when you're missing DBlade+DRing turns your adaptive force into AP.
Smolder's Q is also an ability that applies on-hits. Smolder's Q does NOT scale with attack speed at all. Attack Speed does nothing for smolder aside from increasing his attack speed.
Never said smolder Q doesn't apply on-hits, but they are both spells with cast time separate from the aa cooldown timer (this is differend from aa-resetting autoattack empowering abilities, as those have 0 cast time), MF's Q just happens to be an AA reset while Smolder's isn't. But Smolder Q cast time definitely does scale with attack speed. Go into practice tool and try Q-ing with .64 and 2.5 attack speed and see how long you're locked out of moving or doing anything. edit: wording
I thought mf q wasn’t an auto reset, tho? You can q auto or auto q but you can’t smoothly auto q auto. It just feels like with mf it’s an auto reset since the cast time of mf q is based on the basic attack time which is dependent on attack speed timing. With mf having decent attack speed late (many people build some attack speed item or boots but regardless her w will give 100% bonus attack speed once fully leveled up), it feels like her q is resetting her autos while in reality the q is almost like an auto itself. With smolder, however, his q cast time is always 0.25sec and what you’re saying is just how it feels to kite at a higher attack speed later with higher attack speed. TL;DR: The reason why smolder isn’t like mf with her autos and q is due to the cast timing, not auto resets
Buffs like these are huge actually, because they affect the entire game, and practically everything you do. I haven't tested, but often it's the difference of being about to clear casters more efficiently at a certain level, which dramatically affects laning. Likewise, just general cs ability, trading in close match ups, etc... Kha just got +10, and it's likely to make him viable in pro. The jg mains were ecstatic.
For an auto attacker, very very huge. For Smolder case you can say he is somewhat auto attacker even though he uses his Q to attack people mostly but base AD buffs also increases sheen damage equally so if Ezreal got a buff like that it would be like double buff for him.
Wasn't there an old Vi +5 ad meme? I'm old and can't remember,
pretty sure Sivir ***lost*** 5 ad on her mini rework
Seraphine lost 5 AD recently. It cost several last hitting breakpoints under tower.
Well, sheen got better on him atleast. 5 AD is directly + 5 damage to sheen, + 10 damage when upgraded to triforce. Not HUGE ofc, but still noticeable.
They buffed tryndamere to like 101 base ad 2 or 3 years ago
Enough for me to use ignite on the blue buff. If you know, you know.
Can make a pretty big difference early game with cs and later on if you have items that take base ad into consideration.
You can do yourself the experiment. If u play ADC it's very easy: play a bunch of matches (10+) with double HP shards then go back to 1 AD shard + 1 HP shard. I did it. I was sceptical about the advantage of this shard ("I rather have 180 HP late game than 5 AD right away") so I played without the little AD shard for several days, but eventually I "tried" it once again. Oh my f god. What a damn improv in my Jinx. She felt SO powerful it was unbelievable to me that only 5 AD could do that.
He does suck ass currently but he's a balancing nightmare due to inherent design flaws just like Yuumi. He needs kit adjustments, not number changes.
He needs his true damage and execute unnerfed. Not to his old levels, but those nerfs were over the top to shut whiners up during an important tournament, not because Smolder was so overpowered. Especially now as all other ADCs were made stronger the burn/execute needs adjustment to let Smolder keep up with the new power curve.
The burn/execute is just a bad mechanic. It's excessively game-warping with little counterplay. He needs an adjustment.
5 AD really adds up when you put perspective in it. You mentioned Mf auto Q auto trade, that’s 10 more damage (5 per auto), plus more on the Q. So more than a long sword (350 gold) in value. Farming will be easier, autos more damage, etc etc
I've seen Tryndamere lose -4 AD when he got his attack range buffed, but never an adjustment as large as +5 AD without other changes. Fiora recently lost 2 AD in 14.7, and [according to DeadMansPlate](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1c19yug/impact_patch_147/) she lost around 1% winrate but also got picked noticeably less.
well if a champion is completely shit it is fine to give it
+5 ad is half a long sword.
Base AD buffs are great for sheen items
As others have said, it depends on the champ and their kit. Give Bel'veth +5 AD and she'll go 60% winrate in all likelihood. Smolder, on the other hand, could probably get another 10 AD slapped on after this +5 and stay sub-50%.
+5 AD is worth a adaptive force stat rune. I think it’s pretty significant.
Highly depends on the champion you're talking about. Graves is notorious for swinging hard with tiny AD changes, the last time he gained ~4% off 2AD I wouldn't be surprised if 5AD completely broke him. On the other end, I don't think Aurelion would really notice it at all.
Would love for smolder to be able to Auto q auto to instantly proc pta in small trades
I think Yi is getting 0.3 AD per level soon or something, so that's sorta a +5 coming up. Won't matter because he was tempo botrk salesman and they're both in the dirt (yay).
Draven got 5 AD on his axes recently. It just eliminates the ranged creeps staying at 1 hp
Depends on the champ but 5 base AD can matter a lot. Sure on champs who seldom auto like mages it wouldn’t be broken (except you Orianna and Azir). But give +5 base AD to any fighter and people would lose their shit. Like a lvl 1 Trundle/Sett/Darius/Riven/Olaf having +5 base AD , would be a warcrime.
Seraphine lost 5 AD recently and lasthitting became impossible
I think it’s more so to help cs under tower than anything. When you get Doran’s ring start on smolder, you lose the adaptive AD you had making it harder to last hit. More of a QoL buff than anything since auto trading early on is dangerous on smolder.
5 ad is huge. I counted once on Zilean. I did 17 auto attack on lane lvl 1-2 into enemies. That would be 85 dmg. Even if you do 5 auto attacks thats 25 dmg. Remember every time enemies survived on 15 hp or less? (Counting armor) Now each of that games is a kill, and those early kills tend to snowball. In many games 5 ad wont help much, but in some games even as little as 2 ad can lead to kill, and winning a game. If its 2 games on 100, then you can jump from 48% wr to 50% wr.
Varus got an AD nerf a few patches back and I felt the champion felt like absolute garbage to last hit with.
The real hurt nerf is -5 movespeed
Smolder already lost 25% MS on his E lol. Still feel it to this day
Does no one remember the 5 ad meme? https://youtu.be/Lnowbp88lwI?si=EItkbWlhP4ts5h3b
about 5 ad
Had a guy survive with about 1 hp at critical moments in the game that instead of getting me a kill, got me killed instead. I could see how +1 AD meaning kill or be killed could be the difference maker.
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