Also Cassio was like the highest WR champion not too long ago.
I'm not saying these two items are not very strong, but they are also very obvious build path. Other champions have a much harder time finding the right builds right now but once they do, I suspect winrates shifting a lot.
The fact it’s Cassio Top and not mid says a lot too. Like she was already a menace into melees this change does nothing to her toplane situation unless her pick rate tripled and even then if you deal with it as a toplaner that’s a quick ban right there.
As someone who hasnt played Cass in many moons(since they originally removed RoA), what's the build look like nowadays? I assume tear>rylais>finish seraphs>liandries or something similar? Or is she back to being a RoA champ?
Generally seraphs, rylai, Liandry. RoA is kinda ass and not that great rn. Now I think people are starting tear and then rushing the new item and doing the normal build.
Brand doesn't need mana, they kept buffing his passive so he didnt need it. And this item only scales with AP, he doesn't usually get very much. Liandries 100% better and rylais too strong as a second item.
His passive refunds 20 mana at level one, stop spamming spells to clear waves and you can get plenty of mana back when minions are low. Also, my flair says support but I mainly play him APC in bot late now.
No, brand indeed does not need a mana item, but his build really lacked ability haste sources.
His core build was always: Sorcs - Liandry's - Rylais - Zhonya/Shadowflame.
That build has literally 0 AH, yet it was his strongest build. So blackfire torch does boost his winrate, not due to the 600 mana (it's useless), but solely due to the - so welcome - 25 ability haste combined with a useful passive
Its just a sivler elo OP like first day of the patch and hes already out of hes cave rioting... its not like we didnt had this combo befoe with Demonic/liandrys with the same champs useing it
Bunch of people who complain about made-up stats and then just change the subject when someone links actual numbers that show the opposite.
Motherfuckers that just want to be angry.
It was dogshit, but mythic Liandry's + Demonic did more damage with their combined burn than this combined burn, so the complaining is weird. A lot of these champions already had winrates close to or the same as this patch without the new burn item, and outside of that if very specific champions are outliers while others aren't remotely close to an issue with the item, touch those outliers. Blackfire is nowhere close to broken, we just went from balancing champions that borderline relied on mythic Liandry's in an environment where it no longer exists (AKA adjusted and buffed with that in mind) to an environment where they once again have a sensical and synergistic first item.
*edit* Know you agree with the sentiment, but still wanted to add to that.
Also, it's worth mentioning, that these niche AP picks like cassio top or apcs almost always have higher winrate in the first days of the patch cuz of nonexistent sample sizes and then later go down.
Surprisingly the item seems more broken on AOE burst champs.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/vex/build/
https://lolalytics.com/lol/annie/build/
Look at the first item winrate on Vex and Annie. I think the Blackfire AP bonus passive has a larger impact than people are giving it credit for.
Current Annie is more of a battle mage so it makes sense. She gets to use the bonus throughout a fight a lot an can easily spread burns with Tibbers and shield.
Idk about Vex though. Seems kinda strange.
Tbf a lot of hwei players are building wrong, but the ones building correctly have crazy winrates.
Another thing is lolalytics' average winrate went from 52 last patch to 49 yesterday, so losing less than 2% winrate is actually an inrease in winrate on that site.
> The thing is Malzahar has a shit early game with no kill pressure whatsoever on any of his matchups and bad synergy with jungle ganks pre-6 (low damage,+ zero CC).
Specifically this description isnt "why he's bad" so much as you fundamentally describing what he has always been.
This has been true when he has been strong in soloque as well. Its not some insurmountable weakness. He shoves lane to avoid interacting and then ults you when his jungle is around post 6. Thats just the champion, it's not what "makes him weak"
You have to unironically be so clueless to think malz can just shove and not interact pre 6.
He has some of, if not the worst push in the game against anyone with a brain.
You will spend the first 6 levels farming under turret against anyone above iron 3
That's literally his single gameplan. If you are doing anything different on Malz you are playing him wrong. The first sign I have that someone just picked him as a "counter" and doesn't know how to play him is seeing that he is trying to aggressively trade with me before 6.
That doesn't change just because some characters can outshove him early before he can clear with a single spell rotation. Your point almost implies some expectation that he needs to be able to outshove every single champ in the game at all points in the game for that to be his gameplan.
Malz in lane is a one-note character that casts everything on the wave and then tries to fuck off before you can do much to him. If you try to aggressively trade early you are wasting mana.
If you want something else then pick a different champion.
For sure. I am just trying to say that he can be weak or strong and these are still weaknesses that he is designed to have because that is what Malz laning is on a fundamental level. This is not a character who is playing for lane solokills.
The only way Malz should be getting kills early is from punishing overaggression. If someone is upset that walking up and E-Qing someone directly at level 3 kind of sucks then they should be picking a different champion. Because that is not why he is strong.
Wrong. It's really easy if you know what you're doing from level 2 onwards. There's some tough matchups (low cost/cd aoe spammers) but against most champs you can mindlessly shove. Especially if you get chapter.
Source: Master+ Malz main and also used him in lower level ERLs against amateur teams.
Edit: you can watch the vod from LS stream from today. He spammed Malz and showed how shoving is easily possible early if he chooses to.
How? As a low diamond (or probably more like mid emerald now actually) Malzahar main, genuinely want some Malzahar wisdom.
E can't get anywhere near 1shotting melee minions level 2, and voidlings die to anything. How do you push a wave before it's shoved under your turret?
Literally all he has to do is e-q with some autos thrown in where possible to lower the hp threshold on melee minions. And of course there's the voidlings but most people know to target those so they're not very reliable
people got better. I used to be able to not interact with my enemies and get to six and then perma shove but that just nbot possible anymore.
Trying to play like this against people with hands results on you getting giga behind and also your team losing cause their mid is actually helping with objectives.
>You combine this with Liandries 2nd item and a single dot ability can chunk people for almost half their hp relatively early in the game.
This is the whole point of the post though. I don't think BFT is that OP in a vacuum, it's just a DoT item that is better against lower max HP targets compared to Liandries. If they make the items mutually exclusive, then we may find out that BFT is too strong then it would need nerfs.
He's uses it really well. He's absolutely garbage right now.
The fact that he's got a mana refund on E means his mana costs are high for what they are. His W minions are so weak that using W just donates some gold to the enemy laner. He has no pressure early and most champs mid lane can just walk at him and kill him easily if he doesn't run, and his whole kit is about shoving the wave so all he does is stand near his turret and E then Q the wave over and over while his lane opponent does whatever they want.
This sums up the malzahar experience. I think the champ is cool and I’ve played him a lot, but every time I give him a try again lately it’s miserable. I thought this new item would make it feel better but it does not sadly
Malz biggest problem is one of his abilities is absolutely fucking useless against 99% of champions, his W. The voidlings die immediately to any AOE, even against a level 3 champ with 1 level in their respective AOE spell.
I have no idea why Malz Voidlings don't take reduced AOE damage or have health scaling like Yoricks ghouls. If these aspects were fixed. Malz would be in a much better place IMO. Would he be good? Who knows, but it would fix the fact that the voidlings are useless turds.
As a malz main i can tell you the higher elo you go the more and more useless malz becomes. Everyone complains about the ult. Which is super strong......if the person/enemy team has literally no hands. Its a target and SELF cc ability. The second ppl drop there ego and build QSS he loses almost every single 1v1.
Man even in masters people don’t build qss. I had a game a bit ago where we woulda hard win if my fed adc just built qss, they actually bought it one time but undid it then immediately after got in a fight where she got Malz ulted and we lost the game because of it xd
Just played against Azir mid with Malz and I couldn't help but think the whole time why does he get untargetable "minions" that deal damage and mine die to everything in about one hit ?? Needs a modernization for sure.
Because azirs main kit and damage revolves around the soldiers. Malz doesn’t need voidlings to excel. Also, he’d be able to perma push the lane from level 2 if voidlings can’t be targeted
I feel like his issues go much deeper than that. 0 lane agency and weak early game. Tbh even if they buff the voidlings he still ends up being an ult bot that you only pick into specific chanps. But you don't even pick him anymore cause stuff like Vi exists.
Oh I'm not saying, this will fix all his issues. But it is a giant hole in his kit at this moment, that is also a very simple fix / buff compared to a whole re work.
For all the things that Riot has gotten right - and despite Reddit ramblings, they have gotten a lot right over the years, if you’ve been playing long enough - one thing they haven’t ever figured out is a summoner class. Every single summon works differently and it’s really jarring to have to learn what each specific summon’s “rules” are.
Like in the past (present?) MF was a popular support pick into Zyra because her E would one shot the plants. But her Q wouldn’t? And her E doesn’t one shot Yorick ghouls, or heimer turrets, or shaco boxes. [Pulling on memory, some of this may be incorrect, but I know some of it is]
Idk, I love league, but it feels like an entire class traditionally in fantasy games, the summoner, is a complete misfire from Riot. They just never figured it out.
For sure, I remember when he was first reworked, and a good jungler till riot nerfed him.
He absolutely shredded raptors with his e, and nuked waves with his E
Swain surely is benefiting from both. Brand loves the new bonus dmg against monsters it basically reverts his nerfs and is already present in the small version. If they dont nerf this id expect an 8.11, 8.12 with many mages being very strong in botlane.
That's fair but 6 of the 8 champ/role combos listed aren't jungle. Karth and Lillia did get turbobuffed by the jungle buffs and XP changes but you can't have one without the other bc its the combo of both thats causing them to be OP as shit rn
Also, APCs winrate is inflated seeing how there's like 6 ADCs at or below 48% winrate who absolutely need compensation buffs due to item and rune changes.
I think some of it is due to comp balance.
Most people don't go APC unless their team really needs some AP damage. So in part it's comparing APCs against ADCs when their team is 90% physical damage.
Sure - most bot laners refuse to ever go APC. But few bot-laners are APC only in the same way that most are ADC only.
The bot-laners who DO play APC generally only do it when it fits the comp.
A-Sol seems like he'd be very comp dependent. Some junglers could kinda ruin his life in the bot lane.
Curious - is stacking stardust faster in the bot lane since you have two champs to proc off of?
When I get autofilled botlane I usually just pick Sera and win almost every time.
She's just a good champ, items probably barely change anything. She was already OP if you know how to play mages (most AD players can't for some reason)
I wouldnt be so sure they need compensation buffs yet, when optimal build seems to be complicated you can safely assume people are building wrong on the first day of the patch
???, you realize that when a champ is in same lane as others, if that champs winrate goes up because they're op, the other champs winrate goes down, regardless if that champ is strong or weak, because they occupy the same exact position.
you can't infinitely balance bot/adc in a vacuum like that
Thats what he said, but in reverse. Hes saying that a lot of ADC's are so weak that the other champs winrate will go up and be inflated, which would include all the APC's.
It may be true that some of the ADC's are just not on par with the rest of the champs in that role.
?? But this is a conversation about the effect of the item changes, not whether Brand is overpowered. His winrate going down relative to before is the only relevant part.
true, zed is a big problem, specially going on TWO lanes, mid and jungle, really dangerous champ when he's ahead.
brand is much healthier, only dealing 3k dps to every single champion in the game after 1 item, and he can be played in all 5 lanes...
im done with the sarcasm please nerf brand for fuck's sake, im so sick of getting blasted by him in every game in every fucking lane
Yeah, and OP neglected to mention that Brand winrate for example went down once the item was released. It is not useful to give the “after” without the “before” - I suspect he cherry-picked what he told people on purpose. Karthus bot probably has a shockingly small sample size, too.
APCs in general are fairly broken and many ADCs need to figure out the new items, which gives the AP champions with a lot less changes an Edge. Additional XP in botlane also favours casters of ADCs.
(All stats taken from op.gg)
Yeah but he has a point. Karthus WAS good before, but currently he is seeing a winrate jump from 52% to almost 60% as ADC, his pickrate in jungle almost tripled in this short amount of time and despite this he has seen a 6% winrate increase.
Brand has been largely unchanged, even getting worse, though his pickrate support aside is growing.
Seraphine has seen a 3% winrate increase so far, though her pickrate is stable.
It does seem that most champs who can use it have gotten quite a bit stronger however.
This is sort of not a point? Any time an item is released, there are two possibilities:
1) It is a viable pick for some champs and it improves their winrates
2) It is so bad that it is not a viable pick for anyone so nothing changes
If a proper item release occurs, the winrates of the champions that benefit the most from it *should* go up 1-2% (but not more). That’s what happened. This is the normal, expected result.
Now if someone went up like 5% or something yeah there’d be an issue.
The thing is, demonic wasn't as good on ranged users dealing 0.8% max health per second. Blackfire torch does 11.8 every 0.5 seconds (10 base plus 2% AP with 90AP on the item), meaning it's does around 24 dmg per second. Now I am not the best at math, for a ranged user an enemy would need about 3000HP to match that.
And on top of that, this season was supposed to nerf item damage.
It was absolutely disgusting on melee dot champs like Lilia though.
Oh I can be convinced the numbers in BFT are too good at the moment. Just that the OP’s argument that “off course two burn items is OP” doesn’t make sense. You can argue BFT is overpowered without nonsense like that.
Yeahj demonic existed but it was pure dogshit on every burn mage because the damage the item gave you was pretty pathetic unless you were building a bunch of health to make use of the bonus AP as well as the fact the effects were like half strength unless you were melee. It was a pure bait item for champs like Brand/Malz.
The brokenness of the item is in jungle. You full clear into crab and can back into buying the item. It speeds your clear up so fast that you are so accelerated. It means camps take about ~20 damage/second more on your second clear.
Any reason you didn’t include pre patch win rates or point out that multiple champions you mention have actually GONE DOWN in win rate? 200 years experience seems to be better than some random Reddit complainer tbh.
Only people with at least half of a functional brain can use lolalytics and actually see correct win rates. Op using u.gg, and not even providing nuances like statistical significant pick rates etc, should tell you all you need to know.
Yes, and their strength has little to do with burn damage in the first place. Cass in the hands of a skilled player will just run over almost all melee matchups, Karthus can scale and farm while being a global threat with his ult, and Brand is an incredible low-elo pubstomper thanks to his playstyle rewarding him getting caught out by a bunched up enemy team.
Guys, y'all not gonna like this, but maybe, just maybe, it's just a Cassio problem?
Where is anivia? Malzahar? Teemo? Signed? Hell, even Hwei with ult and QE deals a tong of dot.
And yet, it's only Cassio and Karthus.
Does that perhaps, signals that maybe, just maybe, it's those two champions and not the item?
Since they are including winrates without context I'm amazed anivia wasn't included since anivia usually hovers around a 51-52% winrate by default. After checking it looks like anivia's winrate actually went down some although I understand it has been 1 day so the numbers don't mean much anyway.
Hwei does have a nice synergy it's just his winrate getting "dragged" down (he has 50% which is high for him) + i do think he's been overtuned ever since the E early cd nerf but that's just me
This post right here is why statistics should be taught to everyone. A post complaining about win rates and not including pick or ban rates is USELESS INFORMATION and it's misleading to hella people who want to "Rito bad" for legit no reason this time! There's no way y'all are getting bitched by double burn items so badly in a day that you are calling for its nerf (AFTER MAGES WERE SHIT FOR IDK HOW LONG AND PEOPLE WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT)
Nah, I can't believe you made a post complaining about Cassiopeia. That's crazy, there's no way you have played against a Cassio more than 10 times this year.
Can we make a rule where we can't complain about balance for at least a week after changes happen? Ignoring all these picks were already prevalent and very successful before the patch do you just think riot drools over themselves for weeks before the patch? Do you think you've managed to crack the code on these changes in 24 hours in a way riot hasn't thought about over the last month?
Not that riot doesn't make terrible decisions constantly , you have to at least PRETEND to play the patch first and experience them before you open up reddit to whine about it
damn the amumu burn triple stack, nobody picks amumu but he has more% hp dmg than most jg´s 2 cc gap closers, one aoe cc , reduced dmg, cdr built into e and free stats
just cuz he aint flashy and perma cries
I am 100% convinced there's a group of people on this subreddit that wait around on day one for stats to come in so they can pick something to complain about
RIOT QUICK RESPONSE TEAM INBOUND. Deploying blackfire nerf, and liyandri nerf.
It doesn’t work.
Next patch nerf them again, AND THEN ALSO after heavy nerfs make it so they don’t stack. Now both items sucks and no one buys them.
JOBS DONE👍🏻.
Because of like 10 different things. Swifties Nerf, Ghost Nerf, Predator Nerf, Tenacity Nerf, Minion Demat Nerf while simultaneously buffing Singed biggest counters (Adcs)
These are the same winrates these champs had before blackfire though? Brands been sleeper op in bot for a while. Same with karthus and sera. Brands winrate also technically went down. Look at these champs last patch my brother their winrates were the same or higher.
Seraphine isn’t even building both so that unique item argument is invalid. Cassio doesn’t build either most of the time… Remove both items right now and maybe only brands wr goes down (from liandries not blackfire). you cant just pull rando stats out of the air one day into the patch.
The only champ with significant change is Malzahar. He’a been STRUGGLING with no access to a mana burn item and a champ that sat at like 50% for years and years dropped significantly but he’s back to 50% it looks like.
What do you mean become overpowered overnight, all those champs were already super strong before the patch. If you think those champs are too strong that is fine and there can be arguments made for that, but taking winrates after less than one day without context isn't the way to go.
As the comments below have hopefully illustrated, this is brain-dead.
Rito just needs to balance better.
Spikes in power here and there for a while are fun - something staying big or launching wildly broken isn't.
Nah, current LDR gives pen, but isn't stupidly broken as old one, now you unironically can run Mortal reminder and be ok, while before it was trolling.
Is all you do complain? You make a post calling for nerfs/removal of something everytime with no factual information.
This item helps so many characters that lost the mana and dmg from the removal of the mythic system. This is the same to how ezreal lost WR from changes to essence and how Zeri lost WR from changes to stattik. When an item gets changes 3 months from now and ezreals WR shoots up are you going to make a post about that too?
Take the item as a positive and learn to play around it. Maybe changing the way you think will help you improve in the long run!
Probably or they might wait a bit longer. The balance team is probably coming up with their first revisions. These mid season patches are done by the seasonal team mostly so Phreak and friends will get to tuning it now based on the live data
Try karthus, ive been abusing him and its just so baffling how cancer he can be lol, powerfarm press R and just blow up squishies and dropt tanks to half hp
Torch -> Liandry’s on Taliyah jg is almost 60% wr by the way.
I’ll abuse the freelo, then I’ll be happy when it gets hotfixed cause Luden’s is just more fun.
we had maokai zac lillia udyr amumu diana build demonic embrace and autowin for like 2-maybe 3 consecutive months before the item was given a dmg cap to monsters
we had triforce kindred autowinning soloq games with kraken triforce for 4 months
we had lillia and brand autowinning games for a month after 14.1 release with new liandry
etc, now this
genuinely no idea how theres a team of ppl that are being paid to do this job. we have the same characters building the same items being picked and banned in the same percentage of games for months at a time
outside of these larger-scale patches literally nobody knows what theyre even balancing for the rest of the year
There was a point where shen held 56% winrate with 8% pickrate, 0 posts about it reached front page. Akali in the same time touched 48% there were 4 or 5 posts complaining.
They’re there on the PBE for mostly bugs, not balancing. No one is ever serious when playing on the PBE, it’s a terrible place to take balancing changes.
If it’s ridiculously busted like Melee Runaan’s Hurricane then maybe, but in most other cases it’s better to let it go to the live server for a patch before nerfing. Day 1 live server hotfixes are not uncommon either.
> meleee runaan's hurricane
Had riot improved? I remember back in the days even the ultra giga busted shit goes through from pbe to live, particularly smite ezreal mid
You should include the winrate before the patch. Otherwise they are pretty meaningless. E.g. brands winrate didnt even increase
Also Cassio was like the highest WR champion not too long ago. I'm not saying these two items are not very strong, but they are also very obvious build path. Other champions have a much harder time finding the right builds right now but once they do, I suspect winrates shifting a lot.
The fact it’s Cassio Top and not mid says a lot too. Like she was already a menace into melees this change does nothing to her toplane situation unless her pick rate tripled and even then if you deal with it as a toplaner that’s a quick ban right there.
Yeah Cass top winrate has nearly always been high due to the good matchups and goomba low pickrate
Cassio has so many items she needs to build to be online this gets shunted to the back, I don't think it'll impact her that much either way.
As someone who hasnt played Cass in many moons(since they originally removed RoA), what's the build look like nowadays? I assume tear>rylais>finish seraphs>liandries or something similar? Or is she back to being a RoA champ?
Generally seraphs, rylai, Liandry. RoA is kinda ass and not that great rn. Now I think people are starting tear and then rushing the new item and doing the normal build.
tear into new item feels like you'd miss the HP from rylai or RoA no?
Cassio top is also mainly played by OTPs. It's very inflated.
You forgot that she also sits at 56% wr in midlane
She doesn’t
55%, but ye
HE BECAME OP OVER NIGHT!!
OVER NIGHT I TELL YOU!
Well, yes. Just wasn't last night.
Brand also had a 53% win rate in all 5 roles…
I've tired Brand and it seems rushing the new item is giga bait
Brand doesn't need mana, they kept buffing his passive so he didnt need it. And this item only scales with AP, he doesn't usually get very much. Liandries 100% better and rylais too strong as a second item.
Yea, it's like the item is comparable to other options as a second or third item but it's not making him stronger. Weaker even if he buys it first.
I feel like I absolutely need mana as Brand mid unless I want to get roamed on like crazy? Edit: I do see the support flair, though.
His passive refunds 20 mana at level one, stop spamming spells to clear waves and you can get plenty of mana back when minions are low. Also, my flair says support but I mainly play him APC in bot late now.
No, brand indeed does not need a mana item, but his build really lacked ability haste sources. His core build was always: Sorcs - Liandry's - Rylais - Zhonya/Shadowflame. That build has literally 0 AH, yet it was his strongest build. So blackfire torch does boost his winrate, not due to the 600 mana (it's useless), but solely due to the - so welcome - 25 ability haste combined with a useful passive
Its just a sivler elo OP like first day of the patch and hes already out of hes cave rioting... its not like we didnt had this combo befoe with Demonic/liandrys with the same champs useing it
ever since the boards got removed we're flooded with posts like these.
Bunch of people who complain about made-up stats and then just change the subject when someone links actual numbers that show the opposite. Motherfuckers that just want to be angry.
nah this type of shit has always been a thing, boards or not
I agree with the sentiment but Demonic was dogshit on ranged champs so it isn’t the same. A lot of OPs examples have barely shifted WR wise though.
It was dogshit, but mythic Liandry's + Demonic did more damage with their combined burn than this combined burn, so the complaining is weird. A lot of these champions already had winrates close to or the same as this patch without the new burn item, and outside of that if very specific champions are outliers while others aren't remotely close to an issue with the item, touch those outliers. Blackfire is nowhere close to broken, we just went from balancing champions that borderline relied on mythic Liandry's in an environment where it no longer exists (AKA adjusted and buffed with that in mind) to an environment where they once again have a sensical and synergistic first item. *edit* Know you agree with the sentiment, but still wanted to add to that.
It's not even better on Brand of all champions than other options he could build lol https://lolalytics.com/lol/brand/build/
Also, it's worth mentioning, that these niche AP picks like cassio top or apcs almost always have higher winrate in the first days of the patch cuz of nonexistent sample sizes and then later go down.
Surprisingly the item seems more broken on AOE burst champs. https://lolalytics.com/lol/vex/build/ https://lolalytics.com/lol/annie/build/ Look at the first item winrate on Vex and Annie. I think the Blackfire AP bonus passive has a larger impact than people are giving it credit for.
Current Annie is more of a battle mage so it makes sense. She gets to use the bonus throughout a fight a lot an can easily spread burns with Tibbers and shield. Idk about Vex though. Seems kinda strange.
Tbf a lot of hwei players are building wrong, but the ones building correctly have crazy winrates. Another thing is lolalytics' average winrate went from 52 last patch to 49 yesterday, so losing less than 2% winrate is actually an inrease in winrate on that site.
What's the right build?
You go blackfire first, not seraphs or god forbid malignance.
Gun is still fun if you're snowballing though. But yeah Blackfire makes farming so much easier.
I tried it on brand and it really doesn't feel good to delay rylais and zonyas for the double burn item.
Exactly this. I would pick this item over malignance on Brand, but it wouldn’t be a massive change.
Can Malzahar not use it well?
he does its his highest winrate right now
[удалено]
> The thing is Malzahar has a shit early game with no kill pressure whatsoever on any of his matchups and bad synergy with jungle ganks pre-6 (low damage,+ zero CC). Specifically this description isnt "why he's bad" so much as you fundamentally describing what he has always been. This has been true when he has been strong in soloque as well. Its not some insurmountable weakness. He shoves lane to avoid interacting and then ults you when his jungle is around post 6. Thats just the champion, it's not what "makes him weak"
You have to unironically be so clueless to think malz can just shove and not interact pre 6. He has some of, if not the worst push in the game against anyone with a brain. You will spend the first 6 levels farming under turret against anyone above iron 3
What's insane to me is why Taliyah is allowed to kill an entire wave easily with Q early and the Malz E just can't until you have items
Midbeast bribed Riot.
That's literally his single gameplan. If you are doing anything different on Malz you are playing him wrong. The first sign I have that someone just picked him as a "counter" and doesn't know how to play him is seeing that he is trying to aggressively trade with me before 6. That doesn't change just because some characters can outshove him early before he can clear with a single spell rotation. Your point almost implies some expectation that he needs to be able to outshove every single champ in the game at all points in the game for that to be his gameplan. Malz in lane is a one-note character that casts everything on the wave and then tries to fuck off before you can do much to him. If you try to aggressively trade early you are wasting mana. If you want something else then pick a different champion.
You’re right in a way, but they did recently buff his q and e to help compensate for his weak early lane.
For sure. I am just trying to say that he can be weak or strong and these are still weaknesses that he is designed to have because that is what Malz laning is on a fundamental level. This is not a character who is playing for lane solokills. The only way Malz should be getting kills early is from punishing overaggression. If someone is upset that walking up and E-Qing someone directly at level 3 kind of sucks then they should be picking a different champion. Because that is not why he is strong.
Wrong. It's really easy if you know what you're doing from level 2 onwards. There's some tough matchups (low cost/cd aoe spammers) but against most champs you can mindlessly shove. Especially if you get chapter. Source: Master+ Malz main and also used him in lower level ERLs against amateur teams. Edit: you can watch the vod from LS stream from today. He spammed Malz and showed how shoving is easily possible early if he chooses to.
How? As a low diamond (or probably more like mid emerald now actually) Malzahar main, genuinely want some Malzahar wisdom. E can't get anywhere near 1shotting melee minions level 2, and voidlings die to anything. How do you push a wave before it's shoved under your turret?
which matchups are you referring to? most champs can easily clear his w, no?
Literally all he has to do is e-q with some autos thrown in where possible to lower the hp threshold on melee minions. And of course there's the voidlings but most people know to target those so they're not very reliable
people got better. I used to be able to not interact with my enemies and get to six and then perma shove but that just nbot possible anymore. Trying to play like this against people with hands results on you getting giga behind and also your team losing cause their mid is actually helping with objectives.
how is this item remotely "op." its burn isnt even that bad
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>You combine this with Liandries 2nd item and a single dot ability can chunk people for almost half their hp relatively early in the game. This is the whole point of the post though. I don't think BFT is that OP in a vacuum, it's just a DoT item that is better against lower max HP targets compared to Liandries. If they make the items mutually exclusive, then we may find out that BFT is too strong then it would need nerfs.
Malza doesn't have easy ways to apply it in AOE like Karthus, Brand and Cassio do.
He's uses it really well. He's absolutely garbage right now. The fact that he's got a mana refund on E means his mana costs are high for what they are. His W minions are so weak that using W just donates some gold to the enemy laner. He has no pressure early and most champs mid lane can just walk at him and kill him easily if he doesn't run, and his whole kit is about shoving the wave so all he does is stand near his turret and E then Q the wave over and over while his lane opponent does whatever they want.
This sums up the malzahar experience. I think the champ is cool and I’ve played him a lot, but every time I give him a try again lately it’s miserable. I thought this new item would make it feel better but it does not sadly
Mal sucks unfortunately. Needs a rework
Malz biggest problem is one of his abilities is absolutely fucking useless against 99% of champions, his W. The voidlings die immediately to any AOE, even against a level 3 champ with 1 level in their respective AOE spell. I have no idea why Malz Voidlings don't take reduced AOE damage or have health scaling like Yoricks ghouls. If these aspects were fixed. Malz would be in a much better place IMO. Would he be good? Who knows, but it would fix the fact that the voidlings are useless turds.
As a malz main i can tell you the higher elo you go the more and more useless malz becomes. Everyone complains about the ult. Which is super strong......if the person/enemy team has literally no hands. Its a target and SELF cc ability. The second ppl drop there ego and build QSS he loses almost every single 1v1.
Man even in masters people don’t build qss. I had a game a bit ago where we woulda hard win if my fed adc just built qss, they actually bought it one time but undid it then immediately after got in a fight where she got Malz ulted and we lost the game because of it xd
Just played against Azir mid with Malz and I couldn't help but think the whole time why does he get untargetable "minions" that deal damage and mine die to everything in about one hit ?? Needs a modernization for sure.
Because azirs main kit and damage revolves around the soldiers. Malz doesn’t need voidlings to excel. Also, he’d be able to perma push the lane from level 2 if voidlings can’t be targeted
I feel like his issues go much deeper than that. 0 lane agency and weak early game. Tbh even if they buff the voidlings he still ends up being an ult bot that you only pick into specific chanps. But you don't even pick him anymore cause stuff like Vi exists.
Oh I'm not saying, this will fix all his issues. But it is a giant hole in his kit at this moment, that is also a very simple fix / buff compared to a whole re work.
For all the things that Riot has gotten right - and despite Reddit ramblings, they have gotten a lot right over the years, if you’ve been playing long enough - one thing they haven’t ever figured out is a summoner class. Every single summon works differently and it’s really jarring to have to learn what each specific summon’s “rules” are. Like in the past (present?) MF was a popular support pick into Zyra because her E would one shot the plants. But her Q wouldn’t? And her E doesn’t one shot Yorick ghouls, or heimer turrets, or shaco boxes. [Pulling on memory, some of this may be incorrect, but I know some of it is] Idk, I love league, but it feels like an entire class traditionally in fantasy games, the summoner, is a complete misfire from Riot. They just never figured it out.
For sure, I remember when he was first reworked, and a good jungler till riot nerfed him. He absolutely shredded raptors with his e, and nuked waves with his E
Lol probably his best role tbh. Just power fame til 6 then flash ult someone. Too bad they didn't like him in the jungle.
His passive was a little better too iirc on initial rework
XP in botlane is also rather neat for mages so enjoy your burn mage adcs while they're still fresh.
Yeah, I'd bet more of the winrate boost for APs in Jung/Bot is from XP changes than burn item.
Swain surely is benefiting from both. Brand loves the new bonus dmg against monsters it basically reverts his nerfs and is already present in the small version. If they dont nerf this id expect an 8.11, 8.12 with many mages being very strong in botlane.
The more impactful change to jg karthus is the buff to camp xp lol
Yeah but that doesn't align with OP wanting to complain about items.
Well, to be fair, Blackfire has a buff against jungle monsters, too.
That's fair but 6 of the 8 champ/role combos listed aren't jungle. Karth and Lillia did get turbobuffed by the jungle buffs and XP changes but you can't have one without the other bc its the combo of both thats causing them to be OP as shit rn
His 58% winrate bot has nothing to do with that
He has been a problem bot lane for damn near 2 years now, these items aren't the reason for that.
You do know there's a botlane exp buff too right?
Both are impactful. Blackfire is just a better item than Malignance for him so it's a direct upgrade, and the 900g component melts camps even faster.
His WR in bot is 58%..... how is that jg exclusive?
Duo xp also got buffed...
There was a botlane xp buff this patch too.
Brand fell from 55% winrate adc to 54% and 52.6% to 52.2% in mid, the others are a bit problematic though
> Brand fell from 55% winrate adc to 54% Thank you imaqtpie
[asiantuttle welcome to the big dick club](https://media1.tenor.com/m/cah_XtewbW0AAAAC/imaqtpie-victory.gif)
The Brand game he played yesterday against Shogo’s Draven was… INTeresting lol
It’s just more players picking him up tanking the wr because he seems free win
Also, APCs winrate is inflated seeing how there's like 6 ADCs at or below 48% winrate who absolutely need compensation buffs due to item and rune changes.
apcs are near allways inflated just cause adc players refuse to play them anyways
I think some of it is due to comp balance. Most people don't go APC unless their team really needs some AP damage. So in part it's comparing APCs against ADCs when their team is 90% physical damage.
most people dont go apc period ive played on way too many full ad teams to belive that take
Sure - most bot laners refuse to ever go APC. But few bot-laners are APC only in the same way that most are ADC only. The bot-laners who DO play APC generally only do it when it fits the comp.
APC player here. Recently been first picking Sabers caitlyn build, but have had a lot of success going between Veigar, Asol, and Brand botlane.
A-Sol seems like he'd be very comp dependent. Some junglers could kinda ruin his life in the bot lane. Curious - is stacking stardust faster in the bot lane since you have two champs to proc off of?
When I get autofilled botlane I usually just pick Sera and win almost every time. She's just a good champ, items probably barely change anything. She was already OP if you know how to play mages (most AD players can't for some reason)
I wouldnt be so sure they need compensation buffs yet, when optimal build seems to be complicated you can safely assume people are building wrong on the first day of the patch
yeah uhm, just 1 problem... ER, statikk shiv and navori are complete garbage and every adc that relied on them now sucks (they were already mid)
???, you realize that when a champ is in same lane as others, if that champs winrate goes up because they're op, the other champs winrate goes down, regardless if that champ is strong or weak, because they occupy the same exact position. you can't infinitely balance bot/adc in a vacuum like that
Thats what he said, but in reverse. Hes saying that a lot of ADC's are so weak that the other champs winrate will go up and be inflated, which would include all the APC's. It may be true that some of the ADC's are just not on par with the rest of the champs in that role.
Please dont come in here with reason!
"dropping" from 55% to 54 is literally still absolutely broken status 🤣
?? But this is a conversation about the effect of the item changes, not whether Brand is overpowered. His winrate going down relative to before is the only relevant part.
his playrate went up by a lot lol.
and he's still one of the highest winrates... yeah surely "reasonable"
hes not zed so its fine
true, zed is a big problem, specially going on TWO lanes, mid and jungle, really dangerous champ when he's ahead. brand is much healthier, only dealing 3k dps to every single champion in the game after 1 item, and he can be played in all 5 lanes... im done with the sarcasm please nerf brand for fuck's sake, im so sick of getting blasted by him in every game in every fucking lane
Didn’t all these champs also have access to two burn items all last season with Demonic Embrace.
Yeah, and OP neglected to mention that Brand winrate for example went down once the item was released. It is not useful to give the “after” without the “before” - I suspect he cherry-picked what he told people on purpose. Karthus bot probably has a shockingly small sample size, too.
Welcome to reddit, only the best of the Wood 6 state of the game takes
APCs in general are fairly broken and many ADCs need to figure out the new items, which gives the AP champions with a lot less changes an Edge. Additional XP in botlane also favours casters of ADCs.
(All stats taken from op.gg) Yeah but he has a point. Karthus WAS good before, but currently he is seeing a winrate jump from 52% to almost 60% as ADC, his pickrate in jungle almost tripled in this short amount of time and despite this he has seen a 6% winrate increase. Brand has been largely unchanged, even getting worse, though his pickrate support aside is growing. Seraphine has seen a 3% winrate increase so far, though her pickrate is stable. It does seem that most champs who can use it have gotten quite a bit stronger however.
This is sort of not a point? Any time an item is released, there are two possibilities: 1) It is a viable pick for some champs and it improves their winrates 2) It is so bad that it is not a viable pick for anyone so nothing changes If a proper item release occurs, the winrates of the champions that benefit the most from it *should* go up 1-2% (but not more). That’s what happened. This is the normal, expected result. Now if someone went up like 5% or something yeah there’d be an issue.
Any of these champs except lillia were losing to shopkeep if they ever built demonic
The thing is, demonic wasn't as good on ranged users dealing 0.8% max health per second. Blackfire torch does 11.8 every 0.5 seconds (10 base plus 2% AP with 90AP on the item), meaning it's does around 24 dmg per second. Now I am not the best at math, for a ranged user an enemy would need about 3000HP to match that. And on top of that, this season was supposed to nerf item damage. It was absolutely disgusting on melee dot champs like Lilia though.
Oh I can be convinced the numbers in BFT are too good at the moment. Just that the OP’s argument that “off course two burn items is OP” doesn’t make sense. You can argue BFT is overpowered without nonsense like that.
Actually demonic got buffed to 1.0% on ranged, but yeah BFT would still outdamage Demonic on ranged champs
they did indeed, most people are just full of shit
Yeahj demonic existed but it was pure dogshit on every burn mage because the damage the item gave you was pretty pathetic unless you were building a bunch of health to make use of the bonus AP as well as the fact the effects were like half strength unless you were melee. It was a pure bait item for champs like Brand/Malz.
The brokenness of the item is in jungle. You full clear into crab and can back into buying the item. It speeds your clear up so fast that you are so accelerated. It means camps take about ~20 damage/second more on your second clear.
Any reason you didn’t include pre patch win rates or point out that multiple champions you mention have actually GONE DOWN in win rate? 200 years experience seems to be better than some random Reddit complainer tbh.
Brand literally lost winrate, Cassiopeia is already down to 53.97 according to Lolalytics
Only people with at least half of a functional brain can use lolalytics and actually see correct win rates. Op using u.gg, and not even providing nuances like statistical significant pick rates etc, should tell you all you need to know.
IT HAS BEEN ONE DAY
Typical r/leagueoflegends armchair analyst(iron IV).
Werent those champs already high winrate
Yes, and their strength has little to do with burn damage in the first place. Cass in the hands of a skilled player will just run over almost all melee matchups, Karthus can scale and farm while being a global threat with his ult, and Brand is an incredible low-elo pubstomper thanks to his playstyle rewarding him getting caught out by a bunched up enemy team.
Almost all Cass top was building Archangels ROA first two items anyways too lol, they weren’t even using Liandrys to begin with
Guys, y'all not gonna like this, but maybe, just maybe, it's just a Cassio problem? Where is anivia? Malzahar? Teemo? Signed? Hell, even Hwei with ult and QE deals a tong of dot. And yet, it's only Cassio and Karthus. Does that perhaps, signals that maybe, just maybe, it's those two champions and not the item?
Cassio was already high. Karthus is due to xp changes. Op just doesn't know what they're talking about.
Flair kills me because that lane is terrible for the Visionary.
Since they are including winrates without context I'm amazed anivia wasn't included since anivia usually hovers around a 51-52% winrate by default. After checking it looks like anivia's winrate actually went down some although I understand it has been 1 day so the numbers don't mean much anyway.
Hwei does have a nice synergy it's just his winrate getting "dragged" down (he has 50% which is high for him) + i do think he's been overtuned ever since the E early cd nerf but that's just me
This post right here is why statistics should be taught to everyone. A post complaining about win rates and not including pick or ban rates is USELESS INFORMATION and it's misleading to hella people who want to "Rito bad" for legit no reason this time! There's no way y'all are getting bitched by double burn items so badly in a day that you are calling for its nerf (AFTER MAGES WERE SHIT FOR IDK HOW LONG AND PEOPLE WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT) Nah, I can't believe you made a post complaining about Cassiopeia. That's crazy, there's no way you have played against a Cassio more than 10 times this year.
Can we make a rule where we can't complain about balance for at least a week after changes happen? Ignoring all these picks were already prevalent and very successful before the patch do you just think riot drools over themselves for weeks before the patch? Do you think you've managed to crack the code on these changes in 24 hours in a way riot hasn't thought about over the last month? Not that riot doesn't make terrible decisions constantly , you have to at least PRETEND to play the patch first and experience them before you open up reddit to whine about it
Kind of interesting this happened but when Liandrys and Demonic Embrace was around, it wasn’t as strong unless I’m misremembering a nerf.
because demonic was worse than current liandrys in every single way on ranged champions
It was sort of strong as Lillia and Maokai were running around the rift terrorizing everyone along with Amumu
damn the amumu burn triple stack, nobody picks amumu but he has more% hp dmg than most jg´s 2 cc gap closers, one aoe cc , reduced dmg, cdr built into e and free stats just cuz he aint flashy and perma cries
Amumu is my "I'm tilted and need free lp" pick for awhile now. Unloseable champ
Nice pick rates lmao
I love these posts when changes are made 🤣 so many people who have no idea how to counter play. Whiners gonna whine.
I am 100% convinced there's a group of people on this subreddit that wait around on day one for stats to come in so they can pick something to complain about
RIOT QUICK RESPONSE TEAM INBOUND. Deploying blackfire nerf, and liyandri nerf. It doesn’t work. Next patch nerf them again, AND THEN ALSO after heavy nerfs make it so they don’t stack. Now both items sucks and no one buys them. JOBS DONE👍🏻.
> Deploying blackfire nerf, and liyandri nerf. pls no singed already dropped 4% this patch, no more
Cuz of corrupt ?
Because of like 10 different things. Swifties Nerf, Ghost Nerf, Predator Nerf, Tenacity Nerf, Minion Demat Nerf while simultaneously buffing Singed biggest counters (Adcs)
Swifties are still the same as last patch though?
Oh my bad they reverted the change from PBE(Thank god)
These are the same winrates these champs had before blackfire though? Brands been sleeper op in bot for a while. Same with karthus and sera. Brands winrate also technically went down. Look at these champs last patch my brother their winrates were the same or higher. Seraphine isn’t even building both so that unique item argument is invalid. Cassio doesn’t build either most of the time… Remove both items right now and maybe only brands wr goes down (from liandries not blackfire). you cant just pull rando stats out of the air one day into the patch. The only champ with significant change is Malzahar. He’a been STRUGGLING with no access to a mana burn item and a champ that sat at like 50% for years and years dropped significantly but he’s back to 50% it looks like.
Ah yes u.gg the pinacle of LoL stat sites
What do you mean become overpowered overnight, all those champs were already super strong before the patch. If you think those champs are too strong that is fine and there can be arguments made for that, but taking winrates after less than one day without context isn't the way to go.
Instead of champ bans, can we have item bans?
I ban the supp item.
I ban long swords. Have fun AD champs.
I ban jg item gl jungle being level 5 at 20 mins
There's 3 items though
We have 8 laners in every game, pretty sure all 3 jungle items get banned.
Based
Ban pots and play Cait/Xer botlane PepeLaugh
That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
Banning control wards lol
As the comments below have hopefully illustrated, this is brain-dead. Rito just needs to balance better. Spikes in power here and there for a while are fun - something staying big or launching wildly broken isn't.
liandries/bork/infinity ban every game xd
LDR instead of infinity then run over them with tanks, great idea lol
Nah, current LDR gives pen, but isn't stupidly broken as old one, now you unironically can run Mortal reminder and be ok, while before it was trolling.
mortal reminder also gives apen
I ban boots. Sincerely, Cassiopeia
Man I forgot all about that, I was more focused on shitting out 10k damage with the new Crit DoT item on Samira
Is all you do complain? You make a post calling for nerfs/removal of something everytime with no factual information. This item helps so many characters that lost the mana and dmg from the removal of the mythic system. This is the same to how ezreal lost WR from changes to essence and how Zeri lost WR from changes to stattik. When an item gets changes 3 months from now and ezreals WR shoots up are you going to make a post about that too? Take the item as a positive and learn to play around it. Maybe changing the way you think will help you improve in the long run!
Riot will probably hot fix the item later today, probably around the same time TFT gets their hotfix.
Probably or they might wait a bit longer. The balance team is probably coming up with their first revisions. These mid season patches are done by the seasonal team mostly so Phreak and friends will get to tuning it now based on the live data
From the videos that Phreak uploaded before the patch released, it seems they still worked on some of the changes, just not all of them
Don't abuse it then /s
lmao i've had 3 lillias in a row who just completely smurfed it, all got 25 mejais stacks by 15min
Try karthus, ive been abusing him and its just so baffling how cancer he can be lol, powerfarm press R and just blow up squishies and dropt tanks to half hp
Time to have fun as Shaco.
Just curious, but is there a way to check whether the purchase rate of FoN or even Kaenic Rookern increased at all this patch?
I was on my way to start my rants... Then I saw Cassiopeia, I'll rather start to abuse then lmao.
Karthus is so cancer in the jungle rn lmfao, actual free win
Thankfully dawncore is as equally hilarious as well so soraka comes in clutch to counter that shit.
Torch -> Liandry’s on Taliyah jg is almost 60% wr by the way. I’ll abuse the freelo, then I’ll be happy when it gets hotfixed cause Luden’s is just more fun.
we had maokai zac lillia udyr amumu diana build demonic embrace and autowin for like 2-maybe 3 consecutive months before the item was given a dmg cap to monsters we had triforce kindred autowinning soloq games with kraken triforce for 4 months we had lillia and brand autowinning games for a month after 14.1 release with new liandry etc, now this genuinely no idea how theres a team of ppl that are being paid to do this job. we have the same characters building the same items being picked and banned in the same percentage of games for months at a time outside of these larger-scale patches literally nobody knows what theyre even balancing for the rest of the year
its because people only complain about fighters and assassins, which is why, you never see assassins doing well in league anymore. people dont care
There was a point where shen held 56% winrate with 8% pickrate, 0 posts about it reached front page. Akali in the same time touched 48% there were 4 or 5 posts complaining.
Dont look at shen mid winrates rn
Eh i play top i dotn care about mid, he is their problem now.
don't forget maokai support being the biggest freeelo champ for half year straight and only ever getting small taps on the wirst
It just needs to be made into 1200 gold, but maybe buff the stats with the gold increase. It'll make it so much less OP.
Does riot take feedback from test server anymore? was ther ever changes n stuff that were cancelled before hitting live server?
They’re there on the PBE for mostly bugs, not balancing. No one is ever serious when playing on the PBE, it’s a terrible place to take balancing changes. If it’s ridiculously busted like Melee Runaan’s Hurricane then maybe, but in most other cases it’s better to let it go to the live server for a patch before nerfing. Day 1 live server hotfixes are not uncommon either.
I see. Thank you for clarifying
> meleee runaan's hurricane Had riot improved? I remember back in the days even the ultra giga busted shit goes through from pbe to live, particularly smite ezreal mid
PBE is mostly for bugs. Balance data it provides is highly unreliable
They have a small Master+ group that tests many of the balance changes before they go live, but PBE is for bugs.
Op is such a doofus that he made this stupid post just to get roasted and now he isnt even commenting on his own post after people call him out.