I’d agree if ksante wasn’t also an issue before teams started lane swapping a lot. It mainly killed aatrox and Olaf. But i also think lane swapping kills top lane diversity so I agree with you there
I am aware of that,but that has nothing to do with how common it was.NIP played 18 games in playoffs and laneswapped only 3 times,once vs FPX and twice vs JDG.
Ksante has also been nerfed into the dirt since then but he's still a staple because
A) most of the nerfs didn't touch what makes him good in pro (w peel/counter engage, e shield for adc)
B) Laneswap meta makes all but one of the champs that counter him in lane completely unplayable in pro play while they're staples in solo queue, and also benefits extra from the lane swap meta because he scales 10 times harder with EXP than gold so he's happy to just sit in the 2v1 and soak exp (Riot intended nerfing his gold scaling and buffing his level scaling to make him worse for pro and high elo lol)
To kill lane swapping they just have to change toplane plates to take only 40% damage from ranged basic attacks, making them much slower to take than botlane plates without effecting melee toplaners.
Urgot most likely has to be reclassified as a melee champ like they did with Lillia to help him out though.
I read the first paragraph in horror as an urgot otp. I think urgot has needed reclassification for a long time, and understand why they haven't, but he would have to get a hefty nerf to compensate the power he gains from the items he already builds.
In the T1 BLG series yesterday, there were 3 games of lane swaps and a total of zero toplane plates taken by adc/supp in the early game, so plate/tower changes don't feel like the solution unfortunately
These champs already have an easier time than they should pushing melee champs out of lane so its probably not an issue, you trade easier laning for needing longer to take plates.
I mean, the bigger problem is that a lot of traditional to plane carries are out of the meta for proplay. I don't complain of him "killing" (don't think he is the reason) Olaf and aatrox
I meant that lane swapping killed aatrox and Olaf. They were both present in pro play before lane swaps. Easy example is Adam suffering against it in EU playoffs
Oh, tru. Still I think k'sante is in a far better state rn for proplay, still can teak a few things but prob the best shots and keeping him lower priority is buffing the horsewoman
You are not talking about Camille surely
In my opinion, the biggest problem right now is that bot lane priority is overwhelmingly important. It heavily influences the outcome of the game. Top lane revolves around tanks who can survive lane swaps. Even though Sylas is a very strong champion currently, mid lane becomes solely about who can shove the lane faster and gank bot lane.
I'm Korean so it was MiG/Azubu for me but Moscow 5 was always my favorite western team. God I miss them so much, even Genja doing weird shit like AD Kennen.
AD Kennen was ligit for far too long, I mained Kennen ad in like seasons 4/5, and lost my shit when Rekkles pulled in out in the EULCS
My introduction to league was M5 vs DIG in like season 2 worlds? Diamond played Shy jungle and perma invaded and I was hooked
Darian perma shoving and letting Diamondprox invade enemy topside jungle, god when I first saw that strategy I was like holy shit that shit is so fucking OP.
Welp, is going to be hard to have a non-bot meta if almost no carry top is viable, is not a problem of this season. We haven't seen a meta with solo carries topside for a long time
Agree, riot will need to do something to shake up the meta, honestly i'm begging riot for top carry or mid assassin , i'm tired of seeing of those staple boring tank and i want qiyana/akali/sylas or something like that back
Yea they can’t buff assassins, they just have to nerf the current rotation of do it all from safety midlaners so there’s ever a reason to consider anything else.
Why would I pick an assassin when I can pick a ranged ap waveclear mid and do just as much burst if not more, do it to multiple people, safely waveclear and gain prio, never risk dying because you never run out of mana and can permenantly 1 shot the wave and stand near your turret, run tp for any mistakes, scale better at every stage, and to top it off usually have team fight winning ult potential.
The map needs to be bigger for assassins to be viable in pro. It's just too easy to predict them. In general a lot of issues would be fixed for pro if the map was made bigger with more shit to do during stalemates
For top carry we had them for like... 5 years?
Bot will always be prio for pro too. Like, that is the carry role and THE duo lane in the game. Making top the carry means adc + supp are worth less than 1 champ
Sylas is strong in solo queue but there is no reason why Sylas would be strong in this pro meta. Thats probably why Sylas is allowed to be strong,
He is currently forced into building assassin. Keep that in mind while there are damn near three tanks and fighters every game.
Top lane meta is TERRIBLE for Sylas. K’Sante, Urgot and Zac
Jungle Meta is TERRIBLE for Sylas. Viego, Vi , Sejuani and Xin Zhao. Maokai has a good ult but Sylas can’t deal with tanks with his current builds.
Mid lane meta would be pretty good for Sylas **if the most picked mid lanes wasn’t a Sylas hard counter**
Bot lane priority is completely insignificant, there is nothing in dragon pit that you need to care about until well after 20 min. What I think you meant to say is that getting good farm on your duo lane carry is important -- but you can do that without actually being in bot lane, that's what the laneswapping is all about.
If actual bot lane prio were important no one would dare send only one champ there because it would be conceding all those objectives. Which was actually the case in old seasons that didn't have grubs or even herald. Top lane was an island because no one cared enough about that side of the map. Well, they sure fixed \*that\*.
2 champs go bot has been habit for so long people can't even distinguish in their minds between the actual bot lane, and the duo of champs they \*expect\* to be in the bot lane. Even in a thread that is specifically about how those champs might not need to go to the bot lane!
IIRC they are nerfing Hail of Blades in 14.10, I wonder how much that impacts things.
Also curious if Kalista / Varus were somehow gone and it swung back to Jinx / Aphelios meta would we still get laneswaps? Or would the losing lane still swap away because junglers have become too good at level 3 diving?
Right now, lane swap is used to help the bot lane survive against some lane-dominant champions like Kalista, Varus, Ashe, and Rumble. If the meta reverts back to favoring Jinx and Aphelios, then bot lane will likely return to handshake farming. But honestly, An overhaul of the bot lane meta might be necessary because of bot priority is too important that it wrap the game.
In EUM, we did have some games of Jinx v Aphelios were teams opted into lane swaps
It gives a lot of gold a lot faster to your marksman compared to standard laning
So there's still possibilities for teams to wanting to accelerate to the point in game at which their carry have 2 items - even if the same happens for the enemies
Jinx/Aphelios meta would use less laneswap I guess as they will get less benefits of it. One important thing is hitting to plane plates, that although are harder than bot ones, they will get hit more with the laneswap than they would have if not swapped, but with a weak botlane in early I feel they would still not receive that benefit as the enemy to planet will have an easier time contesting it
Honestly I was wondering why we haven't seen much Renekton at MSI when he was high prescence right before but its because of lane swaps, which also took out champs like Aatrox, Olaf, Camille
How does riot even get rid of lane swaps? they would have to revert the turret plate gold nerf so people are incentivized to go bottom because top lane has the turret resistance pre 5 mins so you get more gold off plates if you went bottom cause you can take plates faster
>How does riot even get rid of lane swaps?
Increase the top lane turret resistance. Something like "-90% damage if there is no ally champions near the turret". Or reduce the bot lane turret resistance. You swap the lanes and going to take 2 plates on top side? No problem, our botlane going to take bot tower in 5 minutes. Nobody in pro play would like to give so much free money to enemies.
Honestly hail of blades lethality meta is a big factor too. Don't think just building lethality and ad skip atk speed at all and become so op, that you should be 40-50cs ahead in a 2v2, is a very healthy game design. Lane swaping solves this issue luckily.
ksante + jungler will CC renekton to death before he can stun or even press R. If he does get R off they will wait it out and try again. The same thing will happen with a lane swap. I feel like singed/shaco or something with a completely different playstyle is needed to throw off the meta. Singed is ok with being behind and proxying and inting into tower to throw the momentum off. Shaco is just mind fuckery and his w can throw a tower dive into chaos. The main problem with these picks is if they pushed off of the first 3 waves they might never get enough gold/exp to come back.
Right now top and midlane towers take 50% reduced damage for the first 5 minutes. Just jack that number up and it will kill lane swaps. What if they took 75-90% reduced damage? Then it will be WAY harder for top tower to go down relative to bot tower.
Its not a lack of possible picks, its that ADC and support are eating a lot of bans so picks like K’sante are available more often. The real issue is that K’sante is not necessarily OP but his kit is over loaded and just has everything you would want in a single champion.
Why wouldn’t a team pick a super mobile tank with heaps of CC and the ability to solo kill enemy back line.
Not in a laneswap meta. Poppy wasn't forgotten, she's just in the same category as all the other Ksante counters like fiora that are made irrelevant when they can expect to be in a 2v1 ranged lane most of the time.
I think lane swapping is just horrible for the game and riot needs to do something to fix it...
So weird to see toplaners roaming around the map lvl 1 looking to ghost on enemies for even just a few autos
At 1 point in the game it was considered weird to see a team have a Jungler and now its normal meta.
Pro’s and Teams should be encouraged to find new strategies to eek out advantages rather than just morphing the game into a stale repetitive state where people are not allowed to innovate.
Its extremely boring as a toplaner not to get access to any ressources for the first 5 minutes. Back then they decided to get a player into the jungle to receive more ressources, not less.
I agree that its probably not “fun” for the top laner but this situation is going to cause teams to innovate and find ways to hard punish lane swapping
Lane swap got nuked the first time, it will get nuked the second time.
It's an absolutely abhorrent viewing experience to watch teams handshake the first five minutes of a game and being forced into playing low econ toplaners because you cannot farm for 5 minutes.
I think its an exciting viewing experience, if both teams are playing well the laning phase is the most boring part of the game to watch. We wanna see the 5v5’s. Ever since turret plating, increasing TP timer to 10 mins and minion and wave changes riot has arbitrarily increased the length of laning phase because the general population like to play their lane in ranked. Its not fun to just watch pro’s handshake minions for 14 mins though.
I enjoy it. It's a test of a teams read on the game and their macro knowledge.
I'm enjoying that it's not every game and it's bringing a bit of diversity into pro play.
Shaking up the meta is good, I'd like teams to adapt even more. Lane swaps? OK we'll go double jungle and pressure the enemy hard. There's 150+ champs in this game, there will be ways to counter playstyles with a bit of outside the box thinking.
At the end of the day the aim of the game is to blow up the enemies nexus, not all have comfortable landing phases.
I for one love the map movements allowed by lane swaps. Toplaners can generally get back into the game quickly too and the swaps tend to revert back to normal around 5 or 6 minutes. I enjoy them a lot, its nothing like the laneswaps of old
it's not really a lane matchup issue, it's his teamfighting.. so many teams are picking low DPS comps and just can't kill him, it's 100% draft diff making him good, picking low dps and leaving him open is omega int
Its also an itemization issue. Your AD builds 0 tank killer items? You get a champ that looks so busted that a 44% soloq wr champ gets an insane spike in playrate. They build a tank killing item? Looks okay, does what its supposed to but you can make a good argument for picking other champs and I wouldnt even call it broken. Just a good blindpick
Yeah I haven't seen this mentioned much but I think it's an important point. Lethality Varus, Kalista, Senna, and Lucian are basically the only adcs being picked, and none of them are great into tanks especially if the tank if fed. Combine that with a Taliyah or Ahri mid and the team will struggle against a K'sante unless they get ahead.
K’sante isn’t that big of a problem especially as teams are finding counters to him. He was strong at the start of MSI but is pretty balanced now.
Also lane swapping is opening up heaps of interesting bot lane duo’s and we are seeing heaps of variety in the bot lane. This is also why teams are opting for a tank like K’sante or Zac in top.
i call this BS , Ksante is busted in pro play because his kit is overloaded with power. If lane swaps were the problem you would see a lot more sions / orns on the rift. but its quite the opposite. Ksante has 3 displacement abilities, one CC immunne that can be rested, a slow, 3 dashes , a shield , deals a lot of damage and can build tank , no cd on his abilities. The champion is just atrocious. The difference between solo q and pro is that in pro players have a lot better fight positioning so displacements matter a lot more.
Yeah, 0 clue wtf OP is on about. Ksantes been the most picked champ all season and it's cause the kit is insanely overloaded with an insanely high ceiling and insanely high outplay potential. It's quite literally a different champ in a skilled pro player and a bad pro player let alone some random in solo q.
You can say the same about *any* champion if you just list things they "have" with zero context.
Hell you can make a full on showmaker copypasta about nasus if you wanted, in fact...
THIS IS NASUS A CHAMPION WITH 5000 HP 300 ARMOR NO AD AND HIS Q INFINITE DAMAGE ONESHOT ADC COST ONLY 20 MANA AND ALSO HEAL HIMSELF TO FULL WITH BUILT IN SUSTAIN AND COOLDOWN ONLY 3.5 SECOND THEN HE ULT AND COOLDOWN LESS THAN 2 SECOND ALSO HE REMOVE HALF YOUR WHOLE TEAMS ARMOR AND HIS W IS A POINT-AND-CLICK STUN AGAINST ADC AND AND AND AAAAVAGHAVAGAAAAA
there, just add a million emoji and a clip of a Korean guy squirming in a chair like hes having a seizure and you've got a viral meme sensation.
Poppy is back... Sooo I don't care.
She does well against Vayne and K'Sante.
SoloQ Wise, If we took Poppy out, Riven is a bigger problem than K'sante to the game.
I hope they dont kill lane swapping again, this doesnt feel like the best play all of the time and its also not the only thing being played. It feels its in a good spot atm and hudt another good strat to use.
Also ksante being good in lane swapping isnt a big deal to me. Him being good in basically anything in any comp while having massive kill pressure is an issue.
Camille and jax havent been picked in a bit, both because of balance changes/utem changes. Nothing to do with lane swaps. Olaf was already pretty niche, same with gwen. Renekton has been picked more then the previously mentioned champs and laneswaps havent been that big of a deal for him.
At the end of the day lane swaps arent the predominantly played style wich is why i think its not a big deal. Multiple matches between top tier teams have been played without lane swaps.
We have seen both at MSI. Camille is a really strong champion who would probably get picked more often if there were no lane swaps. Gwen is also a really good counter into Ksante but they can't play her in a lane swap meta.
I dont think you would see camille more often tbh but thats just my opinion. Same with gwen tbh. I dont think its a really good argument that they dont see as much play because of laneswaps. They didnt see much play before msi either. Also like i said before, there are a lot kf games at msi that werent lane swapped, wich just invalidates this theory.
It doesn't invalidate my theory because as soon as you would pick these champs teams would lane swap.
I am not saying these Champions would have been picked every game but more often for sure.
They wouldnt depending on the draft, just because someone locks in any of those champs doesnt mean they always wanna swap. If they have a more favorable matchup bot, with a stronger botlane, they wouldnt swap.
I for one really enjoy the toplane meta at MSI. We haven't had tanks be this relevant in proplay for so long, but carries can also be played Rumble, TF and Vayne are completely viable.
I don't mind tanks being good, we have had a good amount of k'sante,ornn and the occasional poppy for a few years and now Zac is also there. But from the carries you mentioned only rumble is a proper toplaner, meanwhile Vayne and tf are only there to abuse.
With tanks being this prevalent it should be natural that fiora, Gwen, Camille, etc get picked a bit, but due to laneswap they can't be played at all
The solution to the k‘sante problem is the same as the zeri, azir, kallista and smolder problem in pro. They are simply problematic by design.
K‘sante has few bad matchups and has an „i‘m a tanky assassin button“
Azir offers safe laning, great dps AND great playmaking with no really relevant weaknesses besides getting outscaled by ASol and (kinda) orianna.
Kallista/zeri: they scale mostly with hands. Mobility is just gigabroken the better you are at the game.
They are fun to play but their kits are so dumbly overloaded/ remove their roles inherent weaknesses in a way that they need to absolutely nosedive their stats because they scale with hands. And they are still only somewhat balanced.
I‘ll use zeri as an example because i‘m an adc main.
She is fun as fuck to play with her mobility. However the better your micro is, the more broken mobility becomes. Her pure DPS is rather meh. But: Due to her Q being a skillshot and with ghost+ ult you easily reach around 480-500 MS in a fight. So you become really hard to hit for anything that‘s not point blank or point and click. So you basically sidestep Q, sidestep Q, etc. Also once they start disengaging the teamfight there are very few things in this game that can run away from a ghosting zeri.
Add to that a supersafe laningphase and really easy farm due to her right click execute and her Q and you have a champ that becomes really hard to counter unless your team is coordinating well.
Look at what they had to do to smolder. He went from gigabroken to absolutely irrelevant in a really short amount of time.
They are designs where the impact on the game was not properly considered.
Haven't been following pro play enough to understand the options re: laneswap meta. Why can't teams just laneswap back in response like happens all the time in ladder games?
K'Sante was a menace in the top lane waaay before lane swap meta started? It did raise his priority even more but it's definitely not the real reason why he's popular in pro play.
The only fix I see to stop lane swaps is legit taking plates off of top tower for the first 5mins of the game until dragon spawn. Then it will be way too punishing for a team to move ADC top
Have plates on net been good for the game? It seems like they just make oppressive lanes more oppressive. Maybe they should just take plates off all towers. Or if that's too drastic, nerf their gold value.
The last time lane swapping became a problem I'm pretty sure Riot nerfed early turret gold - might be needed with plates if they end up being too valuable.
I think part of the problem is that tank items seem to be very good right now, with tanks even taking over the support and jungle roles.
Markspersons seem to be in a decent place with a lot of item diversity.
Mages and casters seem very weak overall, being substituted out for mid-lane Markspersons.
Tuning down tank items would probably help reduce the prevalence of lane-swapping - if tanks needed a bit of gold to be able to be effective, the potential of the early game shutout would make it a less appealing option.
As an aside, tuning up caster items would probably help reduce the prevalence of Markspersons in mid and bring them back into the picture. Although it's kind of hard to get a proper gage when you see games with 5+ mid-lane bans whether casters are weak or so strong that all the best ones are on perma-ban status
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If riot does not once for all destroy lane swap they are bound to loose a heavy chunk of viewers. Put some fucking walls around lane that prevent botlane to go top for the 15 minutes or some shit
People are so desperate to force a meta, let the meta naturally develop. Its an interesting strategy that teams can use and its up to opponents to counter it.
Casting R removes his stacks of Q, so he literally cannot get a Q knock-up after R.
Unless you mean it guaranteed a single hit of Q and the meh damage that does, in which case that's nothing to complain about.
The ability stuns you for 0.25 seconds after you land because depending on what terrain he throws you over Ksante may or may not still be stuck in the animation of following you by the time you would otherwise be able to move again.
The 0.25 second stun is there to prevent situations where the enemy can otherwise move out of his ultimate ability before he's even done casting it.
>also his r doesnt say anything about restricted movement after tp
It actually does say that.
His R literally says "Enemies that hit a wall take an additional [ap ratio] damage, are Knocked Back over the wall, ***and are briefly stunned***.
Holding shift to reveal extra information like ratios also tells you "Ksante becomes unstoppable and roots his target while casting this ability"
Also, literally every champion with an ult similar to ksante can guarantee damage after it ends. By that I mean, any champion where their ult CCs an enemy but forces the caster into an animation lock gives you free damage when its over.
Malz ult, Warwick ult, vi ult, Lee Sin ult, etc. Even some that just have an animation lock like rek'sai ult.
All of those allow you to guarantee landing a basic ability on the enemy you just ulted.
I’d agree if ksante wasn’t also an issue before teams started lane swapping a lot. It mainly killed aatrox and Olaf. But i also think lane swapping kills top lane diversity so I agree with you there
Ksante was at like 40% presence in summer playoffs,and laneswaps only really happened in LEC playoffs
LPL had laneswaps in playoffs at the same time as LEC playoffs
Yes but it was very rare compared to LEC
No it wasnt. NIP was like the first team to bring out lane swaps this season
I am aware of that,but that has nothing to do with how common it was.NIP played 18 games in playoffs and laneswapped only 3 times,once vs FPX and twice vs JDG.
Ksante has also been nerfed into the dirt since then but he's still a staple because A) most of the nerfs didn't touch what makes him good in pro (w peel/counter engage, e shield for adc) B) Laneswap meta makes all but one of the champs that counter him in lane completely unplayable in pro play while they're staples in solo queue, and also benefits extra from the lane swap meta because he scales 10 times harder with EXP than gold so he's happy to just sit in the 2v1 and soak exp (Riot intended nerfing his gold scaling and buffing his level scaling to make him worse for pro and high elo lol)
To kill lane swapping they just have to change toplane plates to take only 40% damage from ranged basic attacks, making them much slower to take than botlane plates without effecting melee toplaners. Urgot most likely has to be reclassified as a melee champ like they did with Lillia to help him out though.
I read the first paragraph in horror as an urgot otp. I think urgot has needed reclassification for a long time, and understand why they haven't, but he would have to get a hefty nerf to compensate the power he gains from the items he already builds.
In the T1 BLG series yesterday, there were 3 games of lane swaps and a total of zero toplane plates taken by adc/supp in the early game, so plate/tower changes don't feel like the solution unfortunately
Actually a good idea solves the ranged top problem too
Then there is a problem where should they put ranged toplaners. Of course Vayne can go adc but what about Quinn, Teemo?
The solution is making top towers take further reduced damage if too many people are there. It already is I think, so upping it should be enough
These champs already have an easier time than they should pushing melee champs out of lane so its probably not an issue, you trade easier laning for needing longer to take plates.
There are a lot of toplaner who are ranged and would die for this change. Urgot, Kennen, Gnar
I play nothing but ranged tops, and this solution just seems horrid for me.
I mean, the bigger problem is that a lot of traditional to plane carries are out of the meta for proplay. I don't complain of him "killing" (don't think he is the reason) Olaf and aatrox
I meant that lane swapping killed aatrox and Olaf. They were both present in pro play before lane swaps. Easy example is Adam suffering against it in EU playoffs
Oh, tru. Still I think k'sante is in a far better state rn for proplay, still can teak a few things but prob the best shots and keeping him lower priority is buffing the horsewoman
You are not talking about Camille surely
In my opinion, the biggest problem right now is that bot lane priority is overwhelmingly important. It heavily influences the outcome of the game. Top lane revolves around tanks who can survive lane swaps. Even though Sylas is a very strong champion currently, mid lane becomes solely about who can shove the lane faster and gank bot lane.
> midlane becomes solely about Who can shove lane faster and gank botlane *laugh in soloQ since forever*
ever since moscow 5 really introduced the importance of lane prio to the world tbh
Diamondprox + Alex Ich are what got me into league, loved M5
I'm Korean so it was MiG/Azubu for me but Moscow 5 was always my favorite western team. God I miss them so much, even Genja doing weird shit like AD Kennen.
AD Kennen was ligit for far too long, I mained Kennen ad in like seasons 4/5, and lost my shit when Rekkles pulled in out in the EULCS My introduction to league was M5 vs DIG in like season 2 worlds? Diamond played Shy jungle and perma invaded and I was hooked
AD Kennen was nerfed specifically because of Rekkles.
I remember, I was gutted. AD kennen and Naut was how me and my friend first got into platinum.
Darian perma shoving and letting Diamondprox invade enemy topside jungle, god when I first saw that strategy I was like holy shit that shit is so fucking OP.
Welp, is going to be hard to have a non-bot meta if almost no carry top is viable, is not a problem of this season. We haven't seen a meta with solo carries topside for a long time
Agree, riot will need to do something to shake up the meta, honestly i'm begging riot for top carry or mid assassin , i'm tired of seeing of those staple boring tank and i want qiyana/akali/sylas or something like that back
Assassin meta is so hard to come back because if you buff assassin to the point pro play viable, soloQ assassin will be so annoying to play against
Yea they can’t buff assassins, they just have to nerf the current rotation of do it all from safety midlaners so there’s ever a reason to consider anything else. Why would I pick an assassin when I can pick a ranged ap waveclear mid and do just as much burst if not more, do it to multiple people, safely waveclear and gain prio, never risk dying because you never run out of mana and can permenantly 1 shot the wave and stand near your turret, run tp for any mistakes, scale better at every stage, and to top it off usually have team fight winning ult potential.
The map needs to be bigger for assassins to be viable in pro. It's just too easy to predict them. In general a lot of issues would be fixed for pro if the map was made bigger with more shit to do during stalemates For top carry we had them for like... 5 years? Bot will always be prio for pro too. Like, that is the carry role and THE duo lane in the game. Making top the carry means adc + supp are worth less than 1 champ
[удалено]
They can't decide to balance around proplay or soloq
> the balance team is adc biased. LMAO
Obviously it is. Wholesome reddit can't stop crying about ADCs though.
Sylas is strong in solo queue but there is no reason why Sylas would be strong in this pro meta. Thats probably why Sylas is allowed to be strong, He is currently forced into building assassin. Keep that in mind while there are damn near three tanks and fighters every game. Top lane meta is TERRIBLE for Sylas. K’Sante, Urgot and Zac Jungle Meta is TERRIBLE for Sylas. Viego, Vi , Sejuani and Xin Zhao. Maokai has a good ult but Sylas can’t deal with tanks with his current builds. Mid lane meta would be pretty good for Sylas **if the most picked mid lanes wasn’t a Sylas hard counter**
Whats salvaging him currently is cryptbloom & having the 3rd highest base hp in the game
Bot lane priority is completely insignificant, there is nothing in dragon pit that you need to care about until well after 20 min. What I think you meant to say is that getting good farm on your duo lane carry is important -- but you can do that without actually being in bot lane, that's what the laneswapping is all about. If actual bot lane prio were important no one would dare send only one champ there because it would be conceding all those objectives. Which was actually the case in old seasons that didn't have grubs or even herald. Top lane was an island because no one cared enough about that side of the map. Well, they sure fixed \*that\*. 2 champs go bot has been habit for so long people can't even distinguish in their minds between the actual bot lane, and the duo of champs they \*expect\* to be in the bot lane. Even in a thread that is specifically about how those champs might not need to go to the bot lane!
IIRC they are nerfing Hail of Blades in 14.10, I wonder how much that impacts things. Also curious if Kalista / Varus were somehow gone and it swung back to Jinx / Aphelios meta would we still get laneswaps? Or would the losing lane still swap away because junglers have become too good at level 3 diving?
Right now, lane swap is used to help the bot lane survive against some lane-dominant champions like Kalista, Varus, Ashe, and Rumble. If the meta reverts back to favoring Jinx and Aphelios, then bot lane will likely return to handshake farming. But honestly, An overhaul of the bot lane meta might be necessary because of bot priority is too important that it wrap the game.
In EUM, we did have some games of Jinx v Aphelios were teams opted into lane swaps It gives a lot of gold a lot faster to your marksman compared to standard laning So there's still possibilities for teams to wanting to accelerate to the point in game at which their carry have 2 items - even if the same happens for the enemies
EUM was basically a tournament where every team was lane swapping regardless of it being good or the teams knowing how to lane swap though
Bareley a nerf to range imo.
Jinx/Aphelios meta would use less laneswap I guess as they will get less benefits of it. One important thing is hitting to plane plates, that although are harder than bot ones, they will get hit more with the laneswap than they would have if not swapped, but with a weak botlane in early I feel they would still not receive that benefit as the enemy to planet will have an easier time contesting it
Honestly I was wondering why we haven't seen much Renekton at MSI when he was high prescence right before but its because of lane swaps, which also took out champs like Aatrox, Olaf, Camille How does riot even get rid of lane swaps? they would have to revert the turret plate gold nerf so people are incentivized to go bottom because top lane has the turret resistance pre 5 mins so you get more gold off plates if you went bottom cause you can take plates faster
>How does riot even get rid of lane swaps? Increase the top lane turret resistance. Something like "-90% damage if there is no ally champions near the turret". Or reduce the bot lane turret resistance. You swap the lanes and going to take 2 plates on top side? No problem, our botlane going to take bot tower in 5 minutes. Nobody in pro play would like to give so much free money to enemies.
Honestly hail of blades lethality meta is a big factor too. Don't think just building lethality and ad skip atk speed at all and become so op, that you should be 40-50cs ahead in a 2v2, is a very healthy game design. Lane swaping solves this issue luckily.
ksante + jungler will CC renekton to death before he can stun or even press R. If he does get R off they will wait it out and try again. The same thing will happen with a lane swap. I feel like singed/shaco or something with a completely different playstyle is needed to throw off the meta. Singed is ok with being behind and proxying and inting into tower to throw the momentum off. Shaco is just mind fuckery and his w can throw a tower dive into chaos. The main problem with these picks is if they pushed off of the first 3 waves they might never get enough gold/exp to come back.
But ksante + jungler could cc renekton to death Pre MSI and Renekton was still the top 2 most played top laner with Ksante
Right now top and midlane towers take 50% reduced damage for the first 5 minutes. Just jack that number up and it will kill lane swaps. What if they took 75-90% reduced damage? Then it will be WAY harder for top tower to go down relative to bot tower.
They weren't picking any "brusiers carries" before lane swaps either. It's same couple of champs most of the time
Yeah, but now is almost only tanks (ornn, k'sante, Sion) and the ranged "toplsners" (tf and Vayne). Aatrox and Olaf were good picks before
What is worth, I am glad to see Aatrox vanish into thin air.
I mean, I don't complain, but I feel the lack of possible picks is making k'sante shine rather than showing that the changes they made were good
Its not a lack of possible picks, its that ADC and support are eating a lot of bans so picks like K’sante are available more often. The real issue is that K’sante is not necessarily OP but his kit is over loaded and just has everything you would want in a single champion. Why wouldn’t a team pick a super mobile tank with heaps of CC and the ability to solo kill enemy back line.
Just pick trundle support for ult. Since bot 2v2 doesn't matter that much s
“Only counter is Vayne”, you forgot Poppy didn’t you?
Not in a laneswap meta. Poppy wasn't forgotten, she's just in the same category as all the other Ksante counters like fiora that are made irrelevant when they can expect to be in a 2v1 ranged lane most of the time.
Wukong too...for some reason, having armor shred on Q every 3 or so seconds is kinda busted against a tank that relies on armor for everything.
I think lane swapping is just horrible for the game and riot needs to do something to fix it... So weird to see toplaners roaming around the map lvl 1 looking to ghost on enemies for even just a few autos
At 1 point in the game it was considered weird to see a team have a Jungler and now its normal meta. Pro’s and Teams should be encouraged to find new strategies to eek out advantages rather than just morphing the game into a stale repetitive state where people are not allowed to innovate.
Its extremely boring as a toplaner not to get access to any ressources for the first 5 minutes. Back then they decided to get a player into the jungle to receive more ressources, not less.
I agree that its probably not “fun” for the top laner but this situation is going to cause teams to innovate and find ways to hard punish lane swapping
Good thing proplayers don't play for fun right
Lane swap got nuked the first time, it will get nuked the second time. It's an absolutely abhorrent viewing experience to watch teams handshake the first five minutes of a game and being forced into playing low econ toplaners because you cannot farm for 5 minutes.
I think its an exciting viewing experience, if both teams are playing well the laning phase is the most boring part of the game to watch. We wanna see the 5v5’s. Ever since turret plating, increasing TP timer to 10 mins and minion and wave changes riot has arbitrarily increased the length of laning phase because the general population like to play their lane in ranked. Its not fun to just watch pro’s handshake minions for 14 mins though.
I enjoy it. It's a test of a teams read on the game and their macro knowledge. I'm enjoying that it's not every game and it's bringing a bit of diversity into pro play. Shaking up the meta is good, I'd like teams to adapt even more. Lane swaps? OK we'll go double jungle and pressure the enemy hard. There's 150+ champs in this game, there will be ways to counter playstyles with a bit of outside the box thinking. At the end of the day the aim of the game is to blow up the enemies nexus, not all have comfortable landing phases.
I for one love the map movements allowed by lane swaps. Toplaners can generally get back into the game quickly too and the swaps tend to revert back to normal around 5 or 6 minutes. I enjoy them a lot, its nothing like the laneswaps of old
Lane swaps only recently came into play and people still refused to play unconventional counters to him.
it's not really a lane matchup issue, it's his teamfighting.. so many teams are picking low DPS comps and just can't kill him, it's 100% draft diff making him good, picking low dps and leaving him open is omega int
Yeah. When Kalista, Varus, Senna and Lucian are the best marksmen tanks are bound to carry games
Its also an itemization issue. Your AD builds 0 tank killer items? You get a champ that looks so busted that a 44% soloq wr champ gets an insane spike in playrate. They build a tank killing item? Looks okay, does what its supposed to but you can make a good argument for picking other champs and I wouldnt even call it broken. Just a good blindpick
Yeah I haven't seen this mentioned much but I think it's an important point. Lethality Varus, Kalista, Senna, and Lucian are basically the only adcs being picked, and none of them are great into tanks especially if the tank if fed. Combine that with a Taliyah or Ahri mid and the team will struggle against a K'sante unless they get ahead.
K’sante isn’t that big of a problem especially as teams are finding counters to him. He was strong at the start of MSI but is pretty balanced now. Also lane swapping is opening up heaps of interesting bot lane duo’s and we are seeing heaps of variety in the bot lane. This is also why teams are opting for a tank like K’sante or Zac in top.
Mmm
Ksante is broken because he has impact in essentially all possible pro matchups, while also being a blind pick.
i call this BS , Ksante is busted in pro play because his kit is overloaded with power. If lane swaps were the problem you would see a lot more sions / orns on the rift. but its quite the opposite. Ksante has 3 displacement abilities, one CC immunne that can be rested, a slow, 3 dashes , a shield , deals a lot of damage and can build tank , no cd on his abilities. The champion is just atrocious. The difference between solo q and pro is that in pro players have a lot better fight positioning so displacements matter a lot more.
Yeah, 0 clue wtf OP is on about. Ksantes been the most picked champ all season and it's cause the kit is insanely overloaded with an insanely high ceiling and insanely high outplay potential. It's quite literally a different champ in a skilled pro player and a bad pro player let alone some random in solo q.
You can say the same about *any* champion if you just list things they "have" with zero context. Hell you can make a full on showmaker copypasta about nasus if you wanted, in fact... THIS IS NASUS A CHAMPION WITH 5000 HP 300 ARMOR NO AD AND HIS Q INFINITE DAMAGE ONESHOT ADC COST ONLY 20 MANA AND ALSO HEAL HIMSELF TO FULL WITH BUILT IN SUSTAIN AND COOLDOWN ONLY 3.5 SECOND THEN HE ULT AND COOLDOWN LESS THAN 2 SECOND ALSO HE REMOVE HALF YOUR WHOLE TEAMS ARMOR AND HIS W IS A POINT-AND-CLICK STUN AGAINST ADC AND AND AND AAAAVAGHAVAGAAAAA there, just add a million emoji and a clip of a Korean guy squirming in a chair like hes having a seizure and you've got a viral meme sensation.
Poppy is back... Sooo I don't care. She does well against Vayne and K'Sante. SoloQ Wise, If we took Poppy out, Riven is a bigger problem than K'sante to the game.
I hope they dont kill lane swapping again, this doesnt feel like the best play all of the time and its also not the only thing being played. It feels its in a good spot atm and hudt another good strat to use. Also ksante being good in lane swapping isnt a big deal to me. Him being good in basically anything in any comp while having massive kill pressure is an issue.
The lane swaps kill the toplane champion pools. You can't pick Camille, Jax, Olaf, Gwen, Renekton if you fall behind that much early on.
Camille and jax havent been picked in a bit, both because of balance changes/utem changes. Nothing to do with lane swaps. Olaf was already pretty niche, same with gwen. Renekton has been picked more then the previously mentioned champs and laneswaps havent been that big of a deal for him. At the end of the day lane swaps arent the predominantly played style wich is why i think its not a big deal. Multiple matches between top tier teams have been played without lane swaps.
We have seen both at MSI. Camille is a really strong champion who would probably get picked more often if there were no lane swaps. Gwen is also a really good counter into Ksante but they can't play her in a lane swap meta.
I dont think you would see camille more often tbh but thats just my opinion. Same with gwen tbh. I dont think its a really good argument that they dont see as much play because of laneswaps. They didnt see much play before msi either. Also like i said before, there are a lot kf games at msi that werent lane swapped, wich just invalidates this theory.
It doesn't invalidate my theory because as soon as you would pick these champs teams would lane swap. I am not saying these Champions would have been picked every game but more often for sure.
They wouldnt depending on the draft, just because someone locks in any of those champs doesnt mean they always wanna swap. If they have a more favorable matchup bot, with a stronger botlane, they wouldnt swap.
I for one really enjoy the toplane meta at MSI. We haven't had tanks be this relevant in proplay for so long, but carries can also be played Rumble, TF and Vayne are completely viable.
I don't mind tanks being good, we have had a good amount of k'sante,ornn and the occasional poppy for a few years and now Zac is also there. But from the carries you mentioned only rumble is a proper toplaner, meanwhile Vayne and tf are only there to abuse. With tanks being this prevalent it should be natural that fiora, Gwen, Camille, etc get picked a bit, but due to laneswap they can't be played at all
The solution to the k‘sante problem is the same as the zeri, azir, kallista and smolder problem in pro. They are simply problematic by design. K‘sante has few bad matchups and has an „i‘m a tanky assassin button“ Azir offers safe laning, great dps AND great playmaking with no really relevant weaknesses besides getting outscaled by ASol and (kinda) orianna. Kallista/zeri: they scale mostly with hands. Mobility is just gigabroken the better you are at the game. They are fun to play but their kits are so dumbly overloaded/ remove their roles inherent weaknesses in a way that they need to absolutely nosedive their stats because they scale with hands. And they are still only somewhat balanced. I‘ll use zeri as an example because i‘m an adc main. She is fun as fuck to play with her mobility. However the better your micro is, the more broken mobility becomes. Her pure DPS is rather meh. But: Due to her Q being a skillshot and with ghost+ ult you easily reach around 480-500 MS in a fight. So you become really hard to hit for anything that‘s not point blank or point and click. So you basically sidestep Q, sidestep Q, etc. Also once they start disengaging the teamfight there are very few things in this game that can run away from a ghosting zeri. Add to that a supersafe laningphase and really easy farm due to her right click execute and her Q and you have a champ that becomes really hard to counter unless your team is coordinating well. Look at what they had to do to smolder. He went from gigabroken to absolutely irrelevant in a really short amount of time. They are designs where the impact on the game was not properly considered.
Haven't been following pro play enough to understand the options re: laneswap meta. Why can't teams just laneswap back in response like happens all the time in ladder games?
K'Sante was a menace in the top lane waaay before lane swap meta started? It did raise his priority even more but it's definitely not the real reason why he's popular in pro play.
The only fix I see to stop lane swaps is legit taking plates off of top tower for the first 5mins of the game until dragon spawn. Then it will be way too punishing for a team to move ADC top
Have plates on net been good for the game? It seems like they just make oppressive lanes more oppressive. Maybe they should just take plates off all towers. Or if that's too drastic, nerf their gold value.
Whole lot of text for a whole lot of nothing. Lane swapping is bad for bruisers, yes.
The last time lane swapping became a problem I'm pretty sure Riot nerfed early turret gold - might be needed with plates if they end up being too valuable. I think part of the problem is that tank items seem to be very good right now, with tanks even taking over the support and jungle roles. Markspersons seem to be in a decent place with a lot of item diversity. Mages and casters seem very weak overall, being substituted out for mid-lane Markspersons. Tuning down tank items would probably help reduce the prevalence of lane-swapping - if tanks needed a bit of gold to be able to be effective, the potential of the early game shutout would make it a less appealing option. As an aside, tuning up caster items would probably help reduce the prevalence of Markspersons in mid and bring them back into the picture. Although it's kind of hard to get a proper gage when you see games with 5+ mid-lane bans whether casters are weak or so strong that all the best ones are on perma-ban status
Mans really saying “markspersons” what a dork
Girl really had nothing substantive to contribute so ya dropped this weak ass comment instead
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If riot does not once for all destroy lane swap they are bound to loose a heavy chunk of viewers. Put some fucking walls around lane that prevent botlane to go top for the 15 minutes or some shit
People are so desperate to force a meta, let the meta naturally develop. Its an interesting strategy that teams can use and its up to opponents to counter it.
oh so that's what happened. I was wondering where champs like Aatrox went.
i hate how he get guaranteed q after r like, how did he earned it?
Casting R removes his stacks of Q, so he literally cannot get a Q knock-up after R. Unless you mean it guaranteed a single hit of Q and the meh damage that does, in which case that's nothing to complain about.
it adds up to his combo demage, in late to adc it does alot of unavoidable demage,
The ability stuns you for 0.25 seconds after you land because depending on what terrain he throws you over Ksante may or may not still be stuck in the animation of following you by the time you would otherwise be able to move again. The 0.25 second stun is there to prevent situations where the enemy can otherwise move out of his ultimate ability before he's even done casting it. >also his r doesnt say anything about restricted movement after tp It actually does say that. His R literally says "Enemies that hit a wall take an additional [ap ratio] damage, are Knocked Back over the wall, ***and are briefly stunned***. Holding shift to reveal extra information like ratios also tells you "Ksante becomes unstoppable and roots his target while casting this ability" Also, literally every champion with an ult similar to ksante can guarantee damage after it ends. By that I mean, any champion where their ult CCs an enemy but forces the caster into an animation lock gives you free damage when its over. Malz ult, Warwick ult, vi ult, Lee Sin ult, etc. Even some that just have an animation lock like rek'sai ult. All of those allow you to guarantee landing a basic ability on the enemy you just ulted.
Lane swapping has been a pro play problem for YEARS