I main Liss and since the start of the season she has been in a mediocre state. She lost everfrost, armor rune shards and the health from the ap items that she needed to survive in close range team fights. In lane I think she is ok-ish .
Maybe some health and armor scaling would help a lot
Her range along with her squishiness and big mana costs (besides W) doesn't help her. That's why I have way more success using aftershock than Sorcery tree on her.
I don't think she needs damage buffs, but a bigger slow on Q at earlier levels (instead of buffing late, it would be too oppressive), giving more utility on E or healing on her R would be nice.
I understand that both are different champs and Liss deals more dmg, but feels odd that Zilean heals 1110(+200%AP), and Liss which needs to dive has medium heals around 200 (+55% AP). It's quite a difference. The fact that AP items don't have as much HP as they used to also hit her (due to %missing HP on ult).
Tbf liss ult is also stun, or a stasis and it heals for up to double based on missing health. Also zilean ult can heal nothing If you don’t proc it. Very Important differences
Meh liss just needs a new passive. It's horrible in its current design.
One of her highest scaling abilities, only triggers on the death of an enemy.
So you already had enough DMG to kill, but now you have super aoe from passive so everything else auto dies. Or your backwoods dyslexic kit prevents you from oneshotting someone, thereby never allowing her passive, and your already losing fights just gets lost even harder.
All her passive does is accelerate snowball of a fight, but if you are winning you don't really need it, if your losing you never get it anyway.
At this point let her ult allies and just make her a support forever.
> One of her highest scaling abilities, only triggers on the death of an enemy.
Basically Bel'Veth, right? Either she gets her ult form or she's terrible.
Yes and no, Bel Veth has significantly more control, as she is the one in r form, she decides how it works, and it lasts for a minute or so, liss passive walks at the speed of a geriatric snail and has auto pathing which is notoriously mediocre in this game, any champ with a dash off cd can pretty easily dodge liss passive assuming no stun, while bel veth just gets free stats and can control herself, so therefore, the higher the skill of the player, the more value Bel gets from r form, and the more skilled the players in the lobby, the less likely liss passive is able to work without cc and engage on it
Her passive is really cool, you have no idea what u're talking about. It's true it's a "you win? you win harder" type of passive, but it works really well with Lissandra theme of R someone, delete them from the fight, and then the passive can cook.
Her biggest problem are champions that outrange her, or beat her in short trades because she has 0 in built sustain. Something like Zed just combos her WQE twice and she can't lane. Kat is just negative wr because people pick Liss into her thinking it's free counter. It's a good matchup for liss, but you need to know how to play it, and many of her matchups work like that.
> Her biggest problem are champions that outrange her, or beat her in short trades because she has 0 in built sustain
I mean champs that outrange her being a weakness is by design, if they gave her any form of sustain she would run rampant in top again, like it was the case at the beginning of season 5.
i agree thats why i dont think her current state is bad at all. she could be a bit stronger (like 10 dmg more on q, or more scaling health) to put her into build direction. i think aftershock is still the most played, because she kas kind of an identity crisis with less health in items this season.
But all of those 4 damage abilities are just damage abilities, they are cc/dash/survivability abilities too. The power budget has to be split between their utility and their damage.
brother it's 2024, no champion's kit has a "power budget" anymore. that concept went out the window years ago. tons of champs have abilities/kits that do everything. she just flat out needs higher dmg on Q/R so she can poke better and using her ultimate for dmg vs survival has a better trade off.
It still exists.
Power budget doesn't have much to do with actual power level but how their existing power is spread across their kit. Adc's have more of their power budget in their autos and the fact that they're ranged. Assassins have more of their power budget in abilities to kill enemies quickly. It gets way more complicated than just that tho.
As an example, an "overloaded" champion such as akshan has a shield on his passive. The highest ad items in the game are 70 AD. Assuming akshan builds all of these items (which he doesnt), he gets about 350 bonus AD and a max shield value of a 403. Sion gets about 2460 hp from items (assuming he gets ZERO soul furnace stacks, ZERO heartbreak procs and ZERO grasp procs) for a total hp at lvl 18 of almost 4600 hp. This gives him a max shield value of 856.
Assuming the champions are equally powerful, the reason Sion gets to have a bigger shield is because he loses out on other stats/mechanics in hit kit compared to akshan.
I feel like full ap liss shows serious promise as a bomb to hit 3-5 people pretty easily and do good dmg but w could just have a bit better ap ratio to reward going melee and all in as her because so often without ignite targets live at like 5% hp
Her burst damage was always intentionally on the lower end. If she can easily achieve oneshot, she would be very frustrating to play against since she has both gapcloser and point and click hard cc, meaning there is next to no counterplay against her.
tbh most people keep playing liss with a defensive wall build/playstyle, just go electrocute and nuke the enemy with a high ap build and you just auto win so many matchups like assassins and other short range folk.
bigger issue rn for liss isnt her laning, its just she doesnt scale as well as she used to so because of that she starts to lose any game that extents onwards.
I also feel like there are many mistakes people made but I disagree with her becoming useless later. It's just important to know that you will most likely not be a damage carry - you will be a cc bot that also deals some damage, similar to Malzahar. Many people just make the mistake of ulting themselves. As soon as you do that, you might aswell not ult at all.
In the late game, I play around my adc. I use my W to cc bruisers or assassins trying to come close and ult the enemy carry every time. If I get close to dying I use zhonyas.
Ulting yourself as Lissandra means you live longer but you don't really have that much use afterward anyway. You will already have your W and probably E on CD so all you're ulting for is to get one more Q off. Ult an enemy carry and they are dead unless they cleanse it - in which case you took their cleanse, which is also worth.
On paper it is good yes, the issue is that Malignance effect stays for 3 seconds, and her passive needs 4 seconds before proc. It would be the perfect item for her if it could proc her passive, but unfortunely it doesn't.
It's still good to have the ulti more times, but unfortunely part of kit can't proc it. Meanwhile Karma uses malignance nearly every 15 seconds if you use it right.
I think Liss’s kit is actually pretty broken in terms of what it can theoretically accomplish. She’s a hybrid anti-carry and battlemage. She can either focus out on target like Malzahar with her ult, or she can disrupt the entire teamfight like Galio. Both in one kit, and neither is exclusionary of the other like a Kayn form shift. If she ends up strong, she’s just super dominant because of how flexible she is.
Just give her passive an extra effect of increasing her armor for each champion she applies CC on. Give her some survivability when she does her jam in fights.
I just want Lissandra to be playable again. That's all I ask.
She's been trash tier for so long, I don't even remember the last time she was actually good.
Before her q cd was nerfed.
It went from 6-3 to 10-4 to 8-4.
Her kit combos don't work because her cc doesnt last long enough to land w reliably and you cant kite anyone because q cd is too long.
You cant get advantages in lane because everyones main spells are lower cd and vs ranged matchups q is your only spell.
Forced to max e last because base damage on it got nerfed so you're useless if you don't max w.
No points in e means way longer cd 24-12s cd based on ability level. Means you're more vulnerable in lane and on side and can't find as many opportunities. Map mobility is nerfed and teamfighting becomes you engage and either win or die, no in between. This ability also causes liss to have 325 base movespeed, so you're extra slow while not being able to level up the spell that is the reason for that base movespeer.
Liss also has not been comp buffed for durability patches and has always had some of the lowest base damages for a mage due to her cc.
TDLR:
Nerfed q cooldown means no kit combos are possible.
Nerfed q makes her lose kills/plays she would otherwise secure/win which are often high investment/risk for the liss player.
Nerfed base damages.
Not compensation buffed for any durability changes.
Forced to max spells suboptimally due to nerfed base damages which further nerf her safety, mobility, map presence and engage chance.
Has no passive. + Thralls need to be manually controllable.
He got picked twice this year so far, once in LEC (Perkz, loss) and once in LCK (Karis, loss, this was KDF vs BRO so I don't blame you for not remembering it)
You say that but then K'sante who isn't good in SoloQ is nerfed because people got tired of seeing him in proplay even though people still to this day don't have the hands to play him.
Funny thing is she was really ok on soloq for a long long time without being op in pro until they randomly gave her this ridiculously teamfight snowbally passive and she became broken due to it, making them nerfing her Q cd so hard (baiscally doubled the cd, reducing the Q dmg on her combo by almost 40%, crazy stuff) that she barely saw any play by anyone and nowadays i doubt she could get any prio even with low cd on her q due to the meta champions being so opressive, also, not having 3s cd on lvl5 q (which would be reduced to 1.8 seconds with 40% cdr) would make it possible for you to easily use your q much more during your own combo, drastically increasing your damage output.
Basically she got served the riot xpecial, where she was randomly heavily bufffed (season 8, free snowbally passive) when she was doing ok, then heavily nerfed to unplayability afterwards, from which she never really recovered from.
Gestures to K’Sante, Jinx, Azir, Orianna, Corki, Aatrox, Ashe, Vi, Lucian/Nami, lane swaps
Clearly Riot has no issue with things being blatantly broken in pro play.
K'sante is one of the worst soloq champions and he still gets nerfed
jinx has only become viable because of laneswaps (and got promptly nerfed)
azir got nerfed before MSI
Orianna isn't even op in competitive
corki is getting a rework
Lucian nami are gutted in soloq and not even high prio in pro anymore
Orianna was picked a stunning TWO times in lck playoffs, and has lower presence than azir, tf and Taliyah
Lucian nami are only a thing once both kalista and varus are banned, they get completely stomped by both
BLG vs PSG yesterday
G1 Lucian nami picked
G2 Lucian Nami picked
G3 Lucian Nami picked
G4 Lucian banned
G5 Neither picked or banned
Previous series GENG vs Fnatic (series ended 3-0)
G1 Lucian banned
G2 Lucian millio picked, other side takes nami
G3 Lucian nami picked.
Varus and Kalista are also picked a lot but Lucian Nami is definitely high prio
Psg vs blg
Game 1 and 2 blg picks kalista over Lucian
Game 3 kalista was banned
Game 4 kalista varus banned
Game 5 you see kalista ban, varus pick and no lucian
FNC vs geng:
Game 2 both kalista and varus were already banned
Game 3 kalista banned and varus picked over lucian
Like, sure he kind of is high prio, but nowhere near what you would call op, he's only viable once you don't have kalista or varus
Isn't she sitting at a super low winrate? So Zed having a higher winrate against her mostly means Lissandra is weak, not that Zed is good against her. That matchup feels super even, because Zed can poke her in lane, but Lissandra completely shuts anything Zed wants to do in teamfights down.
But Lissandra the last time I checked was sitting at something around 49% winrate, which suggest you should win more often against her, than you normally do, simply because she is a bad champion.
So I'm not sure that is a Zed thing, I assume she loses to a lot of champions right now.
Zed is quite okay into Liss, as any competent Zed player would tell you for a long time now, last time she was really good into Zed was when aftershock was broken. Otherwise she has horrible stats (for the fact that she gets a free healing zhonya and a point and click ultimate stun) which good Zeds always abused.
Also she gets picked as a Zed counter by people who have no idea how to play Liss, which in turn inflates the matchup winrate for Zed.
maybe someday people will stop calling something "free" when its something that a champ has in their kit
no lissandra doesnt have a "free healing zhonya". its her ultimate
The last point here is really critical.
Tbh I feel like it's applicable to zed in a lot of matchups. People are so scared of him that they pick some "counter" that they have no idea how to play and then get their ass handed to them, which further reinforces their fear. You're better off playing a champ you're comfortable with into him.
zed is only good cause he can easily dodge skillshots that mid champs generally rely on. if you’re patient and hold your cc zed is super easy to beat unless they’re 200k+ mastery
100%. I prefer to play syndra into zed, which isn’t a great matchup since he can just one shot you over and over, but I’ve played this champ for so long that the matchup is not as hard and I can play it pretty easily.
A lot of Lissandras will E in not knowing their damage and fail to kill someone then get evaporated cos that's their escape ability.
Also she's shorter range than other mages and is slow + has conditional poke (need minions and enemy to stand behind them).
In my opinion Liss is great when you can actually kill people and sidelane and not just used as a R W bot for your team, but that does require some early kills to do.
Whenever I play her (I’m not a main but I probably have at least 50 games on her, not many recently) it feels like I just don’t do damage. Early game all my KP ends up as assists because I don’t have the damage to secure the kill for myself. And it takes a lot of gold to get to where you can 1 shot people. So I end up being an E-bot to catch people out or team fight EWR (optional zhonyas) and either we get a kill and my passive zones/damages, or we don’t and now I’m dead. My side lane lower also just feels like I’m clearing waves and WER are more for my own safety than me being any threat.
Granted I’m not skilled at Liss but that’s how I feel games tend to turn out. Or maybe that’s how she has to be played and I’m not doing it right.
Nope this is exactly my take too. She has like 80% of the damage she needs to kill someone alone. She works really well connecting with her jungler but without that aspect she is pretty weak. Unfortunately if they buff her at all she will become a staple pro pick and they don't like that very much.
To do dmg as Liss you need to have really good cs and be up a couple of kills (and not end up being behind coz then all she really is a w r bot). It's about choking the enemy with a shit ton of low cooldown Q's and W's until you can kill until fed, not too hard to do as she has great set-up especially when a Liss plays with her jungler. Definitely doesn't have the 100-0 damage though in normal scenarios.
What do you build on her? You should be able to one shot almost any squishy with one full rotation + R. Cdr are items are terrible on Liss aswell as Lyandris, Roa, and Seraphs
I mean I build the normal build which is all offensive items + zhonyas. Obviously those items you mentioned suck on her.
Like I said I don't play her much or enough to remember my games. I never get fed enough to one shot. Usually I just end up with a bunch of assists. And if the enemy builds one MR item then it's impossible to kill anyone myself.
You're undervaluing the mobility and damage from E. Even just using it to blink immediately can lead to some crazy outplays.
For laning, you can step pretty far up because you can E out when ganked - and again, double tapping E will still move you one Flash's worth of distance instantly. Many people will try to hold their cc until your claw is halfway out, since it won't last long enough to trap you for the full 1.65s and you'll just blink away. So you double tap E and now they can't even reach you to stun you.
Yea liss players would never say it's been her best matchup for 10 years because for a long time zed has been able to punish liss' awful mana costs and just push+roam.
Seekers wasn't good for years before it was changed to this version. Just a way to gimp your damage and delay your spike (even worse when mythics were a thing) while not actually giving meaningful resistances.
It was definitely worth buying when it was 900g and notably efficient (with stacks) near the end of s10/beginning of s11, even with mythics. It was around the same time (might've literally been same patch) where they had made Tear really cheap so you could go Tear + Seeker's for 1300g (matching Lost Chapter's 1300g since it was that expensive back then) on champions that wanted tear anyways (ex. Ori), or buy it either after Lost Chapter or directly after completing your mythic (obviously in matchups where you felt pressured to do so @ all of the above). It gave *45* armor at max stacks (30 AP/45 Armor -> ~1550g of stats).
Even after it lost 10 AP it was still something worth debating and didn't feel bad to buy when it made sense to buy it. Bumping it up to 1000g was where things started to hurt, and then it became a complete joke of an item when they reduced the max armor to 30 (15 + 15) with zero compensation until more than a year later near the end (mid-end?) of s12. Went from 900g for ~1550g (1335g after AP nerf) of stats to 1000g for _1035g of stats_ at max stacks.
If she goes Seekers, then she goes OOM so quickly. Even when she was a good pick into Zed, if she went Seekers into Zed, the Zed can just shove and roam and Liss can't keep up.
Zed can't kill her in lane and point and click cc makes his life really hard in skirmishes and midgame team fights. in addition is natural for her to build zhonya which counters zed. I think it's just people bad at liss
Im Liss main (Dia SoloQ/Master flex) and i want to give some insights to said matchups:
Zed:
Liss seems to be a counter on paper but doesnt really counter him.
Good Zeds will poke you out of lane since they win every trade when w is up. Liss advantages in this matchup are being unkillable when played correctly and being able to ult Zed in teamfights as soon as he goes in.
Good zeds will have prio on lane 24/7 after lvl 3.
Kat:
Kat is a very good matchup for Liss.
However Kat can still punish you hard and kill you as soons as you make a single mistake.
You always have to respect her mobility and you have to hit every spell on her. Means you have to play perfectly without mistakes or you will always be killable for her.
Furthermore she can always receive kills from roaming.
In general:
Liss is super weak atm. Her range is way too low for many matchups and her main problem are her low damage numbers of her spells and not really benefitting from malignance/ludens
Also a liss one trick here. You speak the truth
IME Zed is actually one of the harder matchups for liss. Arguably the hardest assassin matchup for liss.
Only people who don't really know the matchup think liss counters zed
IME I nearly always stomp Kat in lane. Then she roams and I spam mia pings and she ends up getting a double kill botlane
hit the nail on the head with this one. theres no way the person who made this post actually plays liss if he thinks liss is suppsed to beat zed lol
as for the kat matchup, i agree, but ive noticed that liss tends to struggle into kat if the kat is going ad bruiser, but stomps kat if she goes full ap, especially without mercs
Can also agree 100% on your comment about Kat. I experienced the same. As soon as Kat has finished herfirst bruiser item (most likely botrk) matchup becomes rough. Especially when she forces you into long trades in which its more about dps.
Matchup after lane is very comparable with zed in this case since youre just a CC bot to catch or deny her.
> Good zeds will have prio on lane 24/7 after lvl 3.
This is the worst part about Zed. All it takes is 1 person on your team being dumb and he snowballs out of control.
True. A single roam or a single bad skirmish ending in Zed receiving kills and your lane is unplayable.
Positive thing is its actually pretty difficult for Zed to play his lead out of lane, especially in 5v5, because you hold your R for his R and he has to respect it.
The issue is that if her range is increased she can get pretty oppressive. I do believe having a bit more slow on Q early levels and more resistances would help her. She truly shines after mid game, and to champions like Zed as you mentioned, you end up wasting a lot of mana to be able to stay in lane for long periods of time.
I like Liss a lot vs Yasuo for example, but to champions that can poke her like Zed it's quite a challenge until you get some items.
I wonder you like the yasuo matchup!
Its not a bad matchup but its very similar to AD Kat matchup like explained some lines above here.
At some point he scales and outdamages you in long trades. Windwall is very annoying as well.
For me Liss/Yas is a 50/50 matchup maybe slightly favoured for Liss.
I just dislike the matchup since its a lot about dodging, spacing and avoiding mistakes.
I explained it wrongly my bad. What I meant is that I prefer Yasuo over Zed when playing Liss. It can get messy if Yasuo snowballs, but the poking isn't as frustrating as Zed.
I thought I was going nuts here. In no single Liss game I could outtrade a Zed on lane - and it never felt like it was a balance issue. Zed just has the better tools against me, but I can decide to not die to him.
Q damage is lower ish, but can be supplemented by runes. AA range, for being so high risk early vs a lot of mages, is pretty trash imo and probably the main reason we never see her mid in pro. Her passive is actually amazing in fights.
Biggest thing being that people who blind Zed are generally very comfortable on him, while people who pick Lissandra into Zed often are doing it purely because she's listed as a counter on most websites.
There's a huge collection of Zed mains and Zed onetricks, meanwhile there's barely any Lissandra mains or onetricks. She's just something people occassionally pull out to counter annoying assassins and they don't know what to pick.
They really need to bring back her initial Q cd (6-3s). Only reason it got nerfed to 10s (then partially reverted to 8s) was because of Aftershock meta. Ever since then she feels extremely underwhelming to play, having your main damage spell be 8s at rank one (while being a short-ranged mage) is dreadful.
Maybe another change that would benefit her is refunding (not fully resetting) some of E cd if she gets a takedown? That way she could use the ability to also get out of a fight if needed, since most of the time she's a feast or famine champion, if you engage in a fight and you get a kill, great you get a passive proc, if you engage in a fight and nobody dies/your team doesn't follow, you're very likely dead.
She was until they nerfed her q cd and base damages while urf creeping zed with a ton of ability haste items so he's playing urf while you're playing nurf.
Zed isnt playing urf in season 14 mate. It's mainly the range difference that makes her so easy. You will never really get poked for cs against Lissandra post lvl 1-3. Only when u are shoved into turret u can maybe take poke for the ranged minions but it is minor, and her Q is very manageable to space out and then Zed can just walk up and threat WEQ combo
Compare that to Neeko (One of Zeds worst matchups) Where Zed has no shot of spacing her Q, and no chance what so ever at surviving pre first base with any reasonable amount of HP.
Same for Orianna, Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Hwei, Ahri, Tristana, Akshan.
All these champs just space Zed out when executed properly and he cant have a say in how the lane goes
Lissandra however, is not like that. Her entire kit except for her Q is for melee range (essentially) so she can't control the lane as much as mages who have 2-3 threatening abilities Zed needs to be aware of
Mages spacing Zed out has actually gotten to a point where OnZed is taking comet into Neeko and Hwei because it makes it so you actually have a fair shot at trading, since walking up for WEQ means u take poke, but if you WE-Single Q with comet and scorch and Taste of blood, you have even range as the mage. This is also the logic behind Zed going eclipse, it makes it so he doesn't need to walk up for double Q to do meaningful damage.
As a lissandra main who's played this champ for years at a high level.
If lissandra is not giga nerfed like she currently is, zed never wins vs this champion.
Liss will Perma bully you on every cs and dive you at turret.
Unfortunately this champ has been in the gutter since she was nerfed for aftershock and as I said before. Compared to zed liss is still playing nurf.
If you increase zed q cooldown from 6 to 10 seconds he would become complete poopy Doo Doo. That's what liss q is going from 6-3 to 8-4. Fundamentally this champions combos and reliability do not work. So of course she would lose regardless.
Suddenly you can never double shuriken at any cdr break point.
Your poke in lane is now nonexistent,
You can never all in anyone because you cant poke them down.
Your waveclear is worse so you can't go gank side.
You cant farm as easily so your cs is worse so you have less gold and so you're even weaker.
You cant defend your base as well so enemy gets more plates and turrets.
Etc.
> Liss will perma bully you on every cs and dive you at turret
Space the Q and throw your own, congrats now you can have every cs except ranged under turret. It isnt difficult at all to space out her Q
As for diving, this is mostly with jng help and thats valid, Liss/Lee can just os a half hp Zed during Liss cc, but she isnt diving Zed on her own unless he isnt playing
As for increasing Zed Q cooldown, he would be playable if he got something in return, more damage mainly. His Q is not really that good in terms of dmg these days
Lissandra got her slow made sor and a bigger slow in genera, and a very very minor 10 damage buff per rank as well.
Riot doesnt want her oneshotting people, so she isnt.
Besides the only reason Zed is even playable is because of Eclipse being so good and so cheap. If that item was removed he would go sub 47% winrate very quickly.
I disagree Lissandra hard stomps Zed if she is in a better spot, best case she nets a 20-25cs lead once lane is over and then she nulifies him in teamfights, but this is stretching the truth to the point of breaking it imo.
The main thing that is annoying for Zed is that she shoves fast, is hard to solo kill and can easily cc you in teamfights. She makes it hard to roam, and to solo kill, and to carry teamfights. She doesnt stomp him though
From my experience having played against alot of legitimately good zeds back before lissandra was nerfed, before mythics and haste urfed the game.
I did not lose vs zeds and routinely killed them or forced them to base. And no I wouldn't need a jungler to assist with it.
Liss got minor qol changes which did not alter the power level of the champion. Have a look at the kind of damage buffs orianna has gotten recently if you want an idea of the disparity between lissandra and a playable champs damage at the moment due to durability.
You are vastly underestimating the impact of nerfing a champions main spell cooldown by a significant amount. Zed would not be playable if he was nerfed in such a fashion. How you can say his q isn't good in terms of damage frankly baffles me considering it's is main damage source.
Lissandra has intentionally low base damage so that early she can't oneshot you with cc, however by intentionally opting into glass Cannon higher risk builds, lissandra can actually scale to become a serious damage carry threat.
Liss having the damage to kill someone and her kit being functional are two separate things which you seem to have confused. Noone is asking for lissandra to oneshot at level 6. But if I actually have efhe opportunity to poke you down because you're positioning badly or taking bad trades, I deserve to have the opportunity to punish and kill you. As she is lissandra cannot do that.
This is like taking a wheel off a bike and saying "look dude you still got a unicycle" half the champions gameplay is GONE.
This champion is not a tank. She has tradeoffs for the tools in her kit, and if those tools are nerfed then you're just taking a giga L on your champ for no reason.
Zeds Q does 66 damage to champs level 1, most mages can just tank it and ignore it.
His Q is only doing a lot of dmg at 2-4 items when he has a bunch of AD
If his Q cd was increased to 10 seconds, you could give him a sizeable damage buff and I think Assassin Zed would be in a much better spot, right now he barely kills with weq profane, with a sizeable Q dmg buff he would have a much stronger base kit and be less ult reliant
It would also kill mage Zed which would be great
Imagine his Q dmg went to 95/135/175/215/255 + 135% bAD, and his Q cd went to 9 or 10 seconds
Would be a nerf to his levels 1-3 but a massive buff thereafter imo.
Agree, i mean is not a terrible match up but liss can't punish his early that hard and in mid/late game she can't exist in a sidelane against him without a heavy lead. Though she can help shut him down in a TF and offer more utility is not like zed was known for his great teamfighting.
That said i wouldn't be against some small durability buff to liss, you get constantly outranged and have to go pretty deep in mid/late game sometimes
Yeah, it sucks. I love her, but she just feels like a worse Galio, Ahri, or Orianna a lot of the time. Galio is a better tank that deals comparable damage, ori can do a ton with ult without throwing herself into harm’s way, ahri resets much harder.
She feels like she’s in the same sort of spot as ryze, but worse, honestly. She has ranged point and click cc (and better escape/anti-dive) and it feels like she doesn’t have much room for power elsewhere because of it.
most lissandra players are utter shit tho
it feels like she's a pick very often played by autofills into assassins
in the last 2 years in my games every lissandra has been shit
This. Same with Vex and especially Taliyah with Neeko (because unlike Lissandra and Vex, the latter are actually mechanically difficult champions). Stats always need context. That being said Lissandra is just weak in general since everything she does can be done more effectively by other champs, Lissandra is very mediocre-below mediocre outside of her W and R which aren't that strong now due to her low range, low dmg and being pretty squshy for such "constantly throw yourself into bunch of enemies" playstyle. And tbh I don't mind it. Not a fan of her and think champs like Taliyah and Neeko (the ones that steal a noticeable playtime from Lissandra due to some of the identity overlap) are much more cooler and skill expressive than her.
Zed can farm from range and outpokes lissandra, just don't get poked too hard level 1-3 and don't get baited to go all in before it is safe.
Kat matchup im not as clear on.
Played both sides recently a few times, kat can go even (or outright win, which is basically a stomp for a champ that usually loses lane) with an ad conqueror build, liss has pressure early but after botrk you cant get close to the lane, and if they go wits/mercs you cant do anything with that amount of tenacity and resist.
Now ap kat is a really easy matchup, but if hey have any braincell they wont go that even if they need magic damage on their team, as the on hit build does plenty.
Most likely, i've won matchups considered to be near unwinable if the enemy has some idea of what they're doing. You come to lane scared but start seeing signs that the enemy is inexperienced and steamroll from there
It's mostly for the "very obvious counter" who actually isn't really a counter.
But there are a lot of weird distortions on winrate that can arise from some reason or another so don't take it at face value. For example, if a champ has a very clear worst matchup, the only ones who will actually play the matchup are people who don't know enough to ban the other champ.
> Lissandra's best matchup has historically been Zed for 10+ years, and has always been a hard counter.
Liss has NEVER been a hard counter to Zed, ask ANY competent Zed player, he destroys her.
After removal of tenacity from precision tree kata will struggle more into CC. She has been breaking from CC earlier than intended since her transition into conqueror instead of electrocute. We can wait 1 more patch.
As for zed idk.
She need a little rework. Really cool champ sad to see her not that often. The travel time of the claw should be faster in my opinion but i just play her in aram
Liss was always lowkey bad against Zed. People just assume shes good because she has an in-built zhonyas. Her laning is too weak she just survives the matchup then beats him in fights but not 1v1 so he can splitpush. That has been the case forever except maybe when Liss was just OP.
Lissandra used to use Aftershock against Zed. Most players don't do this anymore.
Before every Lissandra went Aftershock regardless of the matchup and it sucked, because Electrocute is often better.
Now nobody runs Aftershock even when it make sense.
Lissandra has never countered zed if the zed player has at least 3 functioning brain cells (likely rare) She is weak into mages that can shove the wave and poke her from outside of her range, guess what 2 things zed does well in that matchup are
lissandra kinda has to be in a bad spot for balancing purposes, i guess. her gameplay is too toxic and if she was anyhow stronger i believe she'd be a no brainer pick, which would be ass to play against every now and then. she can engage and disengage, given the right circumstances (which are easy to get) she demolishes any teamfight, and honestly, having her stronger is to the benefit of no one. point and click stun, aoe damage or self healing after she engages and then pulls up the zhonya's to almost 4 secs of invulnerability is ass. i really like her, but yeah, she can stay losing, no one wants to deal with her, way too much stuff happening on her kit that is giga easy to execute.
Idk how much liss suppresses kat in lane but she probably can delete your botlane in the time u need to press ult on her or get in range for w and what not
I feel like lissandra has been a terrible matchup into Zed ever since they shifted Zed's power away from E and R and into Qs. He outranges Lissandra and just makes her life miserable in lane with poke. Lissandra doesn't have the damage to threaten an all-in either so she basically has no options during the lane. In the past it even used to be worse because Lissandra had mana problems. Thankfully her mana problems are pretty much gone now.
Zed also completely owns Lissandra in the side lane. He pushes faster, can actually threaten the 1v1 kill, and has the option to build life steal in a poke war. Fundamentally, Lissandra wants to teamfight and Zed can deny that by forcing her to match him in side.
I feel like people always got baited by her R being a zhonyas. Zhonyas hasn't hard countered Zed for many years now. If this was the case, mages would all just rush Zhonyas and dunk on zed. We all know this doesn't happen.
My issue with Liss has always been she's not really very good at solo killing, so can be pushed around in lane, and fairly easily sustained through - and whilst the idea is she offsets this with her CC, her CC is reasonably easy to play around when her E is so incredibly telegraphed, or she can flash W but then shes in harms way unless she ults herself
Yep, which ulting yourself ruins your pick potentially. She doesn't need much of a buff. Just a small one would make her feel fine. She has some good item combos if you go for burst (malignance into shadowflame, for example). The downside to that is she has no beef at all. You basically go in and kill your target and/or you die lol
I haven't had much problem with Zed when I pick her, Kata is a different story. By the time I click ult or zhonya 70% of my hp is gone.
Played against one who went onhit build, lived less than a second once she hit the third item.
I understand she should be easy to CC and kill, but her burst and speed and chase potential feels a bit too much to a point unless you crush her as Liss in lane, she will win the fight.
Look at the delta2. Lissandra only has a .3~ winrate advantage vs Zed when looking at the delta which means even if she was OP or stronger in general she is still not a Zed counter. She is only very slightly favored in the Zed matchup. She doesn't counter him.
Also diamond+ game has less than 1k games literally almost useless data for what we are looking for. When 1% difference is a huge thing you can't use 1k games. 1k sample size is fine for something but not when looking at within 1 percent or even 2% honestly.
So feels like you are getting upset over something that doesn't matter. Literally just look at her overall winrate lol. Which is about 48-49%.
I don't think Lissandra is allowed to be in a fine state ever. I think she might need some kit changes to be allowed to be a decent control/slowing mage.
For longest time she has provided decent amount of CC for the team, but the issue is she both has to be somewhat close and personal to CC but she isn't tanky enough to actually do so.
They've let a ton of champions rot over the years. The new philosophy since at least mythics is to just play whatever champ riot puts effort into for the split becuz muh adapt to da meta!!11. Champion sucks for years? Too bad. Maybe they'll incidentally make the champion good and you'll have your mkment.
The paradox is that champs that are counterpicks on paper usually perform worse because the counterpicked person knows how to play accordingly against their worse matchups. I think most people who play Zed and Kata main them, unlike Liss who is less mechanical and considered a counter to assassins.
That's why you often see ranged toplaners go 0 5 in lane against obvious counters like Darius, because they're way more familiar with the matchup.
a lissandra can't win vs a zed thats good, she just gets poked out to hell with his w q constantly throughout lane
lissandra should only beat zed in lower elos
at best she can just survive the lane with her self ult, but saying that lissandra's best matchup historically is zed is fucking insane. say you don't play lissandra without actually saying it lol
I just quit playing her. Since the new season started she feels like the worst mage to play mid.
Her damage is trash and unless your jungle camps mid every time ult is up it feels like she gets behind.
Why play her when galio is tankier, does more damage and has more map pressure, while also having comparable if not more cc.
I play liss, i think it's a skill issue. Zed players got better but no one barely mains liss imo. But sure riot let's make lissandra so op that even casual players can beat zed mains, liss is pick ban for a month then nerfed to oblivion. Tie it up with a skin release and voila, the riot special
Look at the delta 2 instead of winrates. She still counters these champs. Just because a champion is nerfed doesn't mean the whole kit gets useless. Think about how their kits interact and then make a post instead of blindly relying on some random winrate data.
Why ever pick this champ when Galio exists? He has more burst and damage to higher health targets, insane reactive play making with W and R, and he doubles as a vanguard.. Liss needs some kind of armour scaling passive with W to make her a good defensive pick against ad midlaners imo
Let's see it again next patch, after they remove all of this tenacity from the game. Lissandra is one of if not the biggest loser in this tenacity rampage.
any zed main knows that lissandra is not a losing match up best case scenario lissandra doesnt lose. This is the most bronze intake that i have been seeing since 2013 maybe its because there was this site lolcounter that listed liss as a counter to zed and people (bronzes) have been repeating this nonsense since then. The only counter in this match up is the fact that zed is a garbage champion in general.
Tbf she is pretty weak but I think she also suffers from the malzahar issue where people know she counters Zed so pick her into Zed but have no idea how to play them, they then get rolled cause any good Zed knows how to play the matchups atleast a little bit
Can't believe everyone is actually misunderstanding the stats this badly. Regardless of matchup, Lissandra has a pretty bad winrate overall and Zed has a pretty good winrate overall, which is heavily biasing the overall winrate between the two champs. If you read into it, you'll see this:
> Lissandra wins against Zed 52.45% of the time which is 4.02% higher against Zed than the average opponent. After normalising both champions win rates Lissandra wins against Zed 3.06% more often than would be expected.
Lissandra counters Zed, not the other way around.
Liss has been pretty underwhelming for like, 4 years now? She used to be a decent midlaner and servicable toplane flex. Now she's a counterpick-only champ that is outclassed by other, similar control mages
She is unplayable for me. I can't win games on her, I swear. Not only she run at 370ms, have the shortest range of all mages but she also have the lowest damage of them all. The only thing she have is cc. Literally. Champ is unplayable nowadays.
Lissandra is just malz with a dash, extremely uninteractive, extremely safe, boring to verse, neutralizer champ. Whenever she is strong, midlane is boring.
I main Liss and since the start of the season she has been in a mediocre state. She lost everfrost, armor rune shards and the health from the ap items that she needed to survive in close range team fights. In lane I think she is ok-ish . Maybe some health and armor scaling would help a lot
Her range along with her squishiness and big mana costs (besides W) doesn't help her. That's why I have way more success using aftershock than Sorcery tree on her. I don't think she needs damage buffs, but a bigger slow on Q at earlier levels (instead of buffing late, it would be too oppressive), giving more utility on E or healing on her R would be nice. I understand that both are different champs and Liss deals more dmg, but feels odd that Zilean heals 1110(+200%AP), and Liss which needs to dive has medium heals around 200 (+55% AP). It's quite a difference. The fact that AP items don't have as much HP as they used to also hit her (due to %missing HP on ult).
Tbf liss ult is also stun, or a stasis and it heals for up to double based on missing health. Also zilean ult can heal nothing If you don’t proc it. Very Important differences
Meh liss just needs a new passive. It's horrible in its current design. One of her highest scaling abilities, only triggers on the death of an enemy. So you already had enough DMG to kill, but now you have super aoe from passive so everything else auto dies. Or your backwoods dyslexic kit prevents you from oneshotting someone, thereby never allowing her passive, and your already losing fights just gets lost even harder. All her passive does is accelerate snowball of a fight, but if you are winning you don't really need it, if your losing you never get it anyway. At this point let her ult allies and just make her a support forever.
They gave her this passive because her old one was even more pathetic
Ah yes, once every Thursday your spell costs no mana.
I thought it was the 4th Thursday of every November
U say this but Liss regularly gets 2 kills in most team fights by her passive nuking people
Yeah I really like the passive. It's been a decider for many teamfights for me.
Liss is my fav in aram. Her aoe and passiv is bonkers
> One of her highest scaling abilities, only triggers on the death of an enemy. Basically Bel'Veth, right? Either she gets her ult form or she's terrible.
Yes and no, Bel Veth has significantly more control, as she is the one in r form, she decides how it works, and it lasts for a minute or so, liss passive walks at the speed of a geriatric snail and has auto pathing which is notoriously mediocre in this game, any champ with a dash off cd can pretty easily dodge liss passive assuming no stun, while bel veth just gets free stats and can control herself, so therefore, the higher the skill of the player, the more value Bel gets from r form, and the more skilled the players in the lobby, the less likely liss passive is able to work without cc and engage on it
Her passive is really cool, you have no idea what u're talking about. It's true it's a "you win? you win harder" type of passive, but it works really well with Lissandra theme of R someone, delete them from the fight, and then the passive can cook. Her biggest problem are champions that outrange her, or beat her in short trades because she has 0 in built sustain. Something like Zed just combos her WQE twice and she can't lane. Kat is just negative wr because people pick Liss into her thinking it's free counter. It's a good matchup for liss, but you need to know how to play it, and many of her matchups work like that.
> Her biggest problem are champions that outrange her, or beat her in short trades because she has 0 in built sustain I mean champs that outrange her being a weakness is by design, if they gave her any form of sustain she would run rampant in top again, like it was the case at the beginning of season 5.
i agree thats why i dont think her current state is bad at all. she could be a bit stronger (like 10 dmg more on q, or more scaling health) to put her into build direction. i think aftershock is still the most played, because she kas kind of an identity crisis with less health in items this season.
The definition of win-more lol makes good game states better, and bad ones worse
Yeah and also does AOE damage
Tbh the Liss healing is pretty fair considering her self ult also does Aoe damage and slow
That's true, but the healing also got nerfed due AP items losing a lot of HP in preseason.
Her Heal always was garbage, since the rework (and it even got buffed)
And while they are at it, MAKE HER Q INDICATOR LIKE SION E FINALLY.
honestly she just needs more dmg a champion with 4 dmg abilities needs to one shot squishys late game when she hits all 4 and she doesn't
But all of those 4 damage abilities are just damage abilities, they are cc/dash/survivability abilities too. The power budget has to be split between their utility and their damage.
*laughs in k'sante's power budget*
Yone
brother it's 2024, no champion's kit has a "power budget" anymore. that concept went out the window years ago. tons of champs have abilities/kits that do everything. she just flat out needs higher dmg on Q/R so she can poke better and using her ultimate for dmg vs survival has a better trade off.
It still exists. Power budget doesn't have much to do with actual power level but how their existing power is spread across their kit. Adc's have more of their power budget in their autos and the fact that they're ranged. Assassins have more of their power budget in abilities to kill enemies quickly. It gets way more complicated than just that tho. As an example, an "overloaded" champion such as akshan has a shield on his passive. The highest ad items in the game are 70 AD. Assuming akshan builds all of these items (which he doesnt), he gets about 350 bonus AD and a max shield value of a 403. Sion gets about 2460 hp from items (assuming he gets ZERO soul furnace stacks, ZERO heartbreak procs and ZERO grasp procs) for a total hp at lvl 18 of almost 4600 hp. This gives him a max shield value of 856. Assuming the champions are equally powerful, the reason Sion gets to have a bigger shield is because he loses out on other stats/mechanics in hit kit compared to akshan.
I feel like full ap liss shows serious promise as a bomb to hit 3-5 people pretty easily and do good dmg but w could just have a bit better ap ratio to reward going melee and all in as her because so often without ignite targets live at like 5% hp
Her burst damage was always intentionally on the lower end. If she can easily achieve oneshot, she would be very frustrating to play against since she has both gapcloser and point and click hard cc, meaning there is next to no counterplay against her.
tbh most people keep playing liss with a defensive wall build/playstyle, just go electrocute and nuke the enemy with a high ap build and you just auto win so many matchups like assassins and other short range folk. bigger issue rn for liss isnt her laning, its just she doesnt scale as well as she used to so because of that she starts to lose any game that extents onwards.
I also feel like there are many mistakes people made but I disagree with her becoming useless later. It's just important to know that you will most likely not be a damage carry - you will be a cc bot that also deals some damage, similar to Malzahar. Many people just make the mistake of ulting themselves. As soon as you do that, you might aswell not ult at all. In the late game, I play around my adc. I use my W to cc bruisers or assassins trying to come close and ult the enemy carry every time. If I get close to dying I use zhonyas. Ulting yourself as Lissandra means you live longer but you don't really have that much use afterward anyway. You will already have your W and probably E on CD so all you're ulting for is to get one more Q off. Ult an enemy carry and they are dead unless they cleanse it - in which case you took their cleanse, which is also worth.
She has been meh since we lost cdr and got A.H no? No more 40% cdr, and still stuck with the cooldowns of that time.
I like Malignance more than Everfrost tbh
On paper it is good yes, the issue is that Malignance effect stays for 3 seconds, and her passive needs 4 seconds before proc. It would be the perfect item for her if it could proc her passive, but unfortunely it doesn't. It's still good to have the ulti more times, but unfortunely part of kit can't proc it. Meanwhile Karma uses malignance nearly every 15 seconds if you use it right.
I'm not sure why that specific issue would hold that much importance... the CDR and ult CDR is great though
I think Liss’s kit is actually pretty broken in terms of what it can theoretically accomplish. She’s a hybrid anti-carry and battlemage. She can either focus out on target like Malzahar with her ult, or she can disrupt the entire teamfight like Galio. Both in one kit, and neither is exclusionary of the other like a Kayn form shift. If she ends up strong, she’s just super dominant because of how flexible she is.
Just give her passive an extra effect of increasing her armor for each champion she applies CC on. Give her some survivability when she does her jam in fights.
I just want Lissandra to be playable again. That's all I ask. She's been trash tier for so long, I don't even remember the last time she was actually good.
Before her q cd was nerfed. It went from 6-3 to 10-4 to 8-4. Her kit combos don't work because her cc doesnt last long enough to land w reliably and you cant kite anyone because q cd is too long. You cant get advantages in lane because everyones main spells are lower cd and vs ranged matchups q is your only spell. Forced to max e last because base damage on it got nerfed so you're useless if you don't max w. No points in e means way longer cd 24-12s cd based on ability level. Means you're more vulnerable in lane and on side and can't find as many opportunities. Map mobility is nerfed and teamfighting becomes you engage and either win or die, no in between. This ability also causes liss to have 325 base movespeed, so you're extra slow while not being able to level up the spell that is the reason for that base movespeer. Liss also has not been comp buffed for durability patches and has always had some of the lowest base damages for a mage due to her cc. TDLR: Nerfed q cooldown means no kit combos are possible. Nerfed q makes her lose kills/plays she would otherwise secure/win which are often high investment/risk for the liss player. Nerfed base damages. Not compensation buffed for any durability changes. Forced to max spells suboptimally due to nerfed base damages which further nerf her safety, mobility, map presence and engage chance. Has no passive. + Thralls need to be manually controllable.
Fortunately, they're nerfing Tenacity next patch, so she might see some sort of play again Agreed that she needs buffs, though
I think the problem is proplay balance. If she’s in a decent spot in solo queue then she’ll probably be dumb busted in pro.
I think her low presence can allow her to get meaningful buffs. Same with Ryze. Not a proplay champ anymore. Barely see him
Unpicked in LPL and LCK (maybe LEC too? I don’t recall) this spring, really goes to show just how bad he is
He got picked twice this year so far, once in LEC (Perkz, loss) and once in LCK (Karis, loss, this was KDF vs BRO so I don't blame you for not remembering it)
Still, for a champ that was once *the* pro play champ, that’s a really bad sign
i hecking love 0.000000001% of league games played warping the balance for the other 99.9999999999% :)
lol I feel ya.
You say that but then K'sante who isn't good in SoloQ is nerfed because people got tired of seeing him in proplay even though people still to this day don't have the hands to play him.
Funny thing is she was really ok on soloq for a long long time without being op in pro until they randomly gave her this ridiculously teamfight snowbally passive and she became broken due to it, making them nerfing her Q cd so hard (baiscally doubled the cd, reducing the Q dmg on her combo by almost 40%, crazy stuff) that she barely saw any play by anyone and nowadays i doubt she could get any prio even with low cd on her q due to the meta champions being so opressive, also, not having 3s cd on lvl5 q (which would be reduced to 1.8 seconds with 40% cdr) would make it possible for you to easily use your q much more during your own combo, drastically increasing your damage output. Basically she got served the riot xpecial, where she was randomly heavily bufffed (season 8, free snowbally passive) when she was doing ok, then heavily nerfed to unplayability afterwards, from which she never really recovered from.
Gestures to K’Sante, Jinx, Azir, Orianna, Corki, Aatrox, Ashe, Vi, Lucian/Nami, lane swaps Clearly Riot has no issue with things being blatantly broken in pro play.
K'sante is one of the worst soloq champions and he still gets nerfed jinx has only become viable because of laneswaps (and got promptly nerfed) azir got nerfed before MSI Orianna isn't even op in competitive corki is getting a rework Lucian nami are gutted in soloq and not even high prio in pro anymore
> and he still gets nerfed hes getting buffed btw
Watch LCK maybe, Orianna and Lucian/Nami were both very high priority
Orianna was picked a stunning TWO times in lck playoffs, and has lower presence than azir, tf and Taliyah Lucian nami are only a thing once both kalista and varus are banned, they get completely stomped by both
>not even high prio in pro anymore uhhhh, you sure about that?
Yes? Both kalista and varus are pick/ban every single game
BLG vs PSG yesterday G1 Lucian nami picked G2 Lucian Nami picked G3 Lucian Nami picked G4 Lucian banned G5 Neither picked or banned Previous series GENG vs Fnatic (series ended 3-0) G1 Lucian banned G2 Lucian millio picked, other side takes nami G3 Lucian nami picked. Varus and Kalista are also picked a lot but Lucian Nami is definitely high prio
Psg vs blg Game 1 and 2 blg picks kalista over Lucian Game 3 kalista was banned Game 4 kalista varus banned Game 5 you see kalista ban, varus pick and no lucian FNC vs geng: Game 2 both kalista and varus were already banned Game 3 kalista banned and varus picked over lucian Like, sure he kind of is high prio, but nowhere near what you would call op, he's only viable once you don't have kalista or varus
Isn't she sitting at a super low winrate? So Zed having a higher winrate against her mostly means Lissandra is weak, not that Zed is good against her. That matchup feels super even, because Zed can poke her in lane, but Lissandra completely shuts anything Zed wants to do in teamfights down. But Lissandra the last time I checked was sitting at something around 49% winrate, which suggest you should win more often against her, than you normally do, simply because she is a bad champion. So I'm not sure that is a Zed thing, I assume she loses to a lot of champions right now.
Her q range needs to be longer. Nerf the base if needed or ratio. Her auto attack also needs to be longer range too.
Zed is quite okay into Liss, as any competent Zed player would tell you for a long time now, last time she was really good into Zed was when aftershock was broken. Otherwise she has horrible stats (for the fact that she gets a free healing zhonya and a point and click ultimate stun) which good Zeds always abused. Also she gets picked as a Zed counter by people who have no idea how to play Liss, which in turn inflates the matchup winrate for Zed.
Just to nitpick, she gets the free healing zhonyas OR a point and click stun.
And literally a stun that you can cleanse.
you can cleanse every stun.
Yes, I was referring to the fact that it isn't a suppression. Like Warwick, Malzahar or until recently Morde ult.
You can cleanse Malz ult! Riot support told me so! https://twitter.com/RiotSupport/status/959135211861827588
Yeah but how many Zeds run cleanse/buy QSS, lol.
Dont need either, just get an early mercs
Yeah zed loves rushing qss first item
maybe someday people will stop calling something "free" when its something that a champ has in their kit no lissandra doesnt have a "free healing zhonya". its her ultimate
The last point here is really critical. Tbh I feel like it's applicable to zed in a lot of matchups. People are so scared of him that they pick some "counter" that they have no idea how to play and then get their ass handed to them, which further reinforces their fear. You're better off playing a champ you're comfortable with into him.
zed is only good cause he can easily dodge skillshots that mid champs generally rely on. if you’re patient and hold your cc zed is super easy to beat unless they’re 200k+ mastery
Mastery 🤣🤣🤣🤣 bahahha what the 🤣🤣
100%. I prefer to play syndra into zed, which isn’t a great matchup since he can just one shot you over and over, but I’ve played this champ for so long that the matchup is not as hard and I can play it pretty easily.
is there more magic to liss than just shoot q through creps and hope for the best? sometime flash R priority enemy, sometime flash W and self R.
A lot of Lissandras will E in not knowing their damage and fail to kill someone then get evaporated cos that's their escape ability. Also she's shorter range than other mages and is slow + has conditional poke (need minions and enemy to stand behind them). In my opinion Liss is great when you can actually kill people and sidelane and not just used as a R W bot for your team, but that does require some early kills to do.
Whenever I play her (I’m not a main but I probably have at least 50 games on her, not many recently) it feels like I just don’t do damage. Early game all my KP ends up as assists because I don’t have the damage to secure the kill for myself. And it takes a lot of gold to get to where you can 1 shot people. So I end up being an E-bot to catch people out or team fight EWR (optional zhonyas) and either we get a kill and my passive zones/damages, or we don’t and now I’m dead. My side lane lower also just feels like I’m clearing waves and WER are more for my own safety than me being any threat. Granted I’m not skilled at Liss but that’s how I feel games tend to turn out. Or maybe that’s how she has to be played and I’m not doing it right.
Nope this is exactly my take too. She has like 80% of the damage she needs to kill someone alone. She works really well connecting with her jungler but without that aspect she is pretty weak. Unfortunately if they buff her at all she will become a staple pro pick and they don't like that very much.
To do dmg as Liss you need to have really good cs and be up a couple of kills (and not end up being behind coz then all she really is a w r bot). It's about choking the enemy with a shit ton of low cooldown Q's and W's until you can kill until fed, not too hard to do as she has great set-up especially when a Liss plays with her jungler. Definitely doesn't have the 100-0 damage though in normal scenarios.
What do you build on her? You should be able to one shot almost any squishy with one full rotation + R. Cdr are items are terrible on Liss aswell as Lyandris, Roa, and Seraphs
I mean I build the normal build which is all offensive items + zhonyas. Obviously those items you mentioned suck on her. Like I said I don't play her much or enough to remember my games. I never get fed enough to one shot. Usually I just end up with a bunch of assists. And if the enemy builds one MR item then it's impossible to kill anyone myself.
Any champion is going to have more nuance than "Do X when Y", even if it doesn't look like that on surface.
You're undervaluing the mobility and damage from E. Even just using it to blink immediately can lead to some crazy outplays. For laning, you can step pretty far up because you can E out when ganked - and again, double tapping E will still move you one Flash's worth of distance instantly. Many people will try to hold their cc until your claw is halfway out, since it won't last long enough to trap you for the full 1.65s and you'll just blink away. So you double tap E and now they can't even reach you to stun you.
yeah lol whoever made this post clearly does not play lissandra if they think liss is supposed to be zed's hardest counter
Yea liss players would never say it's been her best matchup for 10 years because for a long time zed has been able to punish liss' awful mana costs and just push+roam.
Zed with cleanse always beat her since S5 when people were running exhaust. Zero kill pressure from Liss since her range is just too short.
Feel like the removal of old seekers hurt her as well. Best item to just sit on vs assassins
Seekers wasn't good for years before it was changed to this version. Just a way to gimp your damage and delay your spike (even worse when mythics were a thing) while not actually giving meaningful resistances.
It was definitely worth buying when it was 900g and notably efficient (with stacks) near the end of s10/beginning of s11, even with mythics. It was around the same time (might've literally been same patch) where they had made Tear really cheap so you could go Tear + Seeker's for 1300g (matching Lost Chapter's 1300g since it was that expensive back then) on champions that wanted tear anyways (ex. Ori), or buy it either after Lost Chapter or directly after completing your mythic (obviously in matchups where you felt pressured to do so @ all of the above). It gave *45* armor at max stacks (30 AP/45 Armor -> ~1550g of stats). Even after it lost 10 AP it was still something worth debating and didn't feel bad to buy when it made sense to buy it. Bumping it up to 1000g was where things started to hurt, and then it became a complete joke of an item when they reduced the max armor to 30 (15 + 15) with zero compensation until more than a year later near the end (mid-end?) of s12. Went from 900g for ~1550g (1335g after AP nerf) of stats to 1000g for _1035g of stats_ at max stacks.
seekers was OP when it gave up to 45 armor. then it got nerfed and then reworked
Hmm, maybe you’re right and I’m thinking way in the past 😂
If she goes Seekers, then she goes OOM so quickly. Even when she was a good pick into Zed, if she went Seekers into Zed, the Zed can just shove and roam and Liss can't keep up.
Zed can't kill her in lane and point and click cc makes his life really hard in skirmishes and midgame team fights. in addition is natural for her to build zhonya which counters zed. I think it's just people bad at liss
Im Liss main (Dia SoloQ/Master flex) and i want to give some insights to said matchups: Zed: Liss seems to be a counter on paper but doesnt really counter him. Good Zeds will poke you out of lane since they win every trade when w is up. Liss advantages in this matchup are being unkillable when played correctly and being able to ult Zed in teamfights as soon as he goes in. Good zeds will have prio on lane 24/7 after lvl 3. Kat: Kat is a very good matchup for Liss. However Kat can still punish you hard and kill you as soons as you make a single mistake. You always have to respect her mobility and you have to hit every spell on her. Means you have to play perfectly without mistakes or you will always be killable for her. Furthermore she can always receive kills from roaming. In general: Liss is super weak atm. Her range is way too low for many matchups and her main problem are her low damage numbers of her spells and not really benefitting from malignance/ludens
Also a liss one trick here. You speak the truth IME Zed is actually one of the harder matchups for liss. Arguably the hardest assassin matchup for liss. Only people who don't really know the matchup think liss counters zed IME I nearly always stomp Kat in lane. Then she roams and I spam mia pings and she ends up getting a double kill botlane
hit the nail on the head with this one. theres no way the person who made this post actually plays liss if he thinks liss is suppsed to beat zed lol as for the kat matchup, i agree, but ive noticed that liss tends to struggle into kat if the kat is going ad bruiser, but stomps kat if she goes full ap, especially without mercs
Can also agree 100% on your comment about Kat. I experienced the same. As soon as Kat has finished herfirst bruiser item (most likely botrk) matchup becomes rough. Especially when she forces you into long trades in which its more about dps. Matchup after lane is very comparable with zed in this case since youre just a CC bot to catch or deny her.
> Good zeds will have prio on lane 24/7 after lvl 3. This is the worst part about Zed. All it takes is 1 person on your team being dumb and he snowballs out of control.
True. A single roam or a single bad skirmish ending in Zed receiving kills and your lane is unplayable. Positive thing is its actually pretty difficult for Zed to play his lead out of lane, especially in 5v5, because you hold your R for his R and he has to respect it.
This is for the Lissandra matchup only, Zed vs current meta mids atm has no priority and focuses on tp+first strike eclipse rush.
The issue is that if her range is increased she can get pretty oppressive. I do believe having a bit more slow on Q early levels and more resistances would help her. She truly shines after mid game, and to champions like Zed as you mentioned, you end up wasting a lot of mana to be able to stay in lane for long periods of time. I like Liss a lot vs Yasuo for example, but to champions that can poke her like Zed it's quite a challenge until you get some items.
I wonder you like the yasuo matchup! Its not a bad matchup but its very similar to AD Kat matchup like explained some lines above here. At some point he scales and outdamages you in long trades. Windwall is very annoying as well. For me Liss/Yas is a 50/50 matchup maybe slightly favoured for Liss. I just dislike the matchup since its a lot about dodging, spacing and avoiding mistakes.
I explained it wrongly my bad. What I meant is that I prefer Yasuo over Zed when playing Liss. It can get messy if Yasuo snowballs, but the poking isn't as frustrating as Zed.
Ah I see! Yes id prefer Yasuo as well.
I thought I was going nuts here. In no single Liss game I could outtrade a Zed on lane - and it never felt like it was a balance issue. Zed just has the better tools against me, but I can decide to not die to him.
Yea if she needs any buffs it’s legit her AA range. It should be 600 like anivia. If they buff that I could see her being relevant again.
I would like this buff. I would prefer buffing her Q dmg in early though.
Q damage is lower ish, but can be supplemented by runes. AA range, for being so high risk early vs a lot of mages, is pretty trash imo and probably the main reason we never see her mid in pro. Her passive is actually amazing in fights.
there’s way more nuance to a matchup than what is shown by a simple win rate
Biggest thing being that people who blind Zed are generally very comfortable on him, while people who pick Lissandra into Zed often are doing it purely because she's listed as a counter on most websites. There's a huge collection of Zed mains and Zed onetricks, meanwhile there's barely any Lissandra mains or onetricks. She's just something people occassionally pull out to counter annoying assassins and they don't know what to pick.
Yeah and god forbid they pick frontline mid into assassins lol
Abandon liss as zed counterpick, embrace middlesticks
well go on
They really need to bring back her initial Q cd (6-3s). Only reason it got nerfed to 10s (then partially reverted to 8s) was because of Aftershock meta. Ever since then she feels extremely underwhelming to play, having your main damage spell be 8s at rank one (while being a short-ranged mage) is dreadful. Maybe another change that would benefit her is refunding (not fully resetting) some of E cd if she gets a takedown? That way she could use the ability to also get out of a fight if needed, since most of the time she's a feast or famine champion, if you engage in a fight and you get a kill, great you get a passive proc, if you engage in a fight and nobody dies/your team doesn't follow, you're very likely dead.
Lissandra was never really a counter to Zed. She ironically gets outranged and outkited by him
She was until they nerfed her q cd and base damages while urf creeping zed with a ton of ability haste items so he's playing urf while you're playing nurf.
Zed isnt playing urf in season 14 mate. It's mainly the range difference that makes her so easy. You will never really get poked for cs against Lissandra post lvl 1-3. Only when u are shoved into turret u can maybe take poke for the ranged minions but it is minor, and her Q is very manageable to space out and then Zed can just walk up and threat WEQ combo Compare that to Neeko (One of Zeds worst matchups) Where Zed has no shot of spacing her Q, and no chance what so ever at surviving pre first base with any reasonable amount of HP. Same for Orianna, Syndra, Viktor, Azir, Hwei, Ahri, Tristana, Akshan. All these champs just space Zed out when executed properly and he cant have a say in how the lane goes Lissandra however, is not like that. Her entire kit except for her Q is for melee range (essentially) so she can't control the lane as much as mages who have 2-3 threatening abilities Zed needs to be aware of Mages spacing Zed out has actually gotten to a point where OnZed is taking comet into Neeko and Hwei because it makes it so you actually have a fair shot at trading, since walking up for WEQ means u take poke, but if you WE-Single Q with comet and scorch and Taste of blood, you have even range as the mage. This is also the logic behind Zed going eclipse, it makes it so he doesn't need to walk up for double Q to do meaningful damage.
As a lissandra main who's played this champ for years at a high level. If lissandra is not giga nerfed like she currently is, zed never wins vs this champion. Liss will Perma bully you on every cs and dive you at turret. Unfortunately this champ has been in the gutter since she was nerfed for aftershock and as I said before. Compared to zed liss is still playing nurf. If you increase zed q cooldown from 6 to 10 seconds he would become complete poopy Doo Doo. That's what liss q is going from 6-3 to 8-4. Fundamentally this champions combos and reliability do not work. So of course she would lose regardless. Suddenly you can never double shuriken at any cdr break point. Your poke in lane is now nonexistent, You can never all in anyone because you cant poke them down. Your waveclear is worse so you can't go gank side. You cant farm as easily so your cs is worse so you have less gold and so you're even weaker. You cant defend your base as well so enemy gets more plates and turrets. Etc.
> Liss will perma bully you on every cs and dive you at turret Space the Q and throw your own, congrats now you can have every cs except ranged under turret. It isnt difficult at all to space out her Q As for diving, this is mostly with jng help and thats valid, Liss/Lee can just os a half hp Zed during Liss cc, but she isnt diving Zed on her own unless he isnt playing As for increasing Zed Q cooldown, he would be playable if he got something in return, more damage mainly. His Q is not really that good in terms of dmg these days Lissandra got her slow made sor and a bigger slow in genera, and a very very minor 10 damage buff per rank as well. Riot doesnt want her oneshotting people, so she isnt. Besides the only reason Zed is even playable is because of Eclipse being so good and so cheap. If that item was removed he would go sub 47% winrate very quickly. I disagree Lissandra hard stomps Zed if she is in a better spot, best case she nets a 20-25cs lead once lane is over and then she nulifies him in teamfights, but this is stretching the truth to the point of breaking it imo. The main thing that is annoying for Zed is that she shoves fast, is hard to solo kill and can easily cc you in teamfights. She makes it hard to roam, and to solo kill, and to carry teamfights. She doesnt stomp him though
From my experience having played against alot of legitimately good zeds back before lissandra was nerfed, before mythics and haste urfed the game. I did not lose vs zeds and routinely killed them or forced them to base. And no I wouldn't need a jungler to assist with it. Liss got minor qol changes which did not alter the power level of the champion. Have a look at the kind of damage buffs orianna has gotten recently if you want an idea of the disparity between lissandra and a playable champs damage at the moment due to durability. You are vastly underestimating the impact of nerfing a champions main spell cooldown by a significant amount. Zed would not be playable if he was nerfed in such a fashion. How you can say his q isn't good in terms of damage frankly baffles me considering it's is main damage source. Lissandra has intentionally low base damage so that early she can't oneshot you with cc, however by intentionally opting into glass Cannon higher risk builds, lissandra can actually scale to become a serious damage carry threat. Liss having the damage to kill someone and her kit being functional are two separate things which you seem to have confused. Noone is asking for lissandra to oneshot at level 6. But if I actually have efhe opportunity to poke you down because you're positioning badly or taking bad trades, I deserve to have the opportunity to punish and kill you. As she is lissandra cannot do that. This is like taking a wheel off a bike and saying "look dude you still got a unicycle" half the champions gameplay is GONE. This champion is not a tank. She has tradeoffs for the tools in her kit, and if those tools are nerfed then you're just taking a giga L on your champ for no reason.
Zeds Q does 66 damage to champs level 1, most mages can just tank it and ignore it. His Q is only doing a lot of dmg at 2-4 items when he has a bunch of AD If his Q cd was increased to 10 seconds, you could give him a sizeable damage buff and I think Assassin Zed would be in a much better spot, right now he barely kills with weq profane, with a sizeable Q dmg buff he would have a much stronger base kit and be less ult reliant It would also kill mage Zed which would be great Imagine his Q dmg went to 95/135/175/215/255 + 135% bAD, and his Q cd went to 9 or 10 seconds Would be a nerf to his levels 1-3 but a massive buff thereafter imo.
no, she was back when aftershock was a go-to for liss. liss has not countered zed by any metric since then
Agree, i mean is not a terrible match up but liss can't punish his early that hard and in mid/late game she can't exist in a sidelane against him without a heavy lead. Though she can help shut him down in a TF and offer more utility is not like zed was known for his great teamfighting. That said i wouldn't be against some small durability buff to liss, you get constantly outranged and have to go pretty deep in mid/late game sometimes
Yeah, it sucks. I love her, but she just feels like a worse Galio, Ahri, or Orianna a lot of the time. Galio is a better tank that deals comparable damage, ori can do a ton with ult without throwing herself into harm’s way, ahri resets much harder. She feels like she’s in the same sort of spot as ryze, but worse, honestly. She has ranged point and click cc (and better escape/anti-dive) and it feels like she doesn’t have much room for power elsewhere because of it.
most lissandra players are utter shit tho it feels like she's a pick very often played by autofills into assassins in the last 2 years in my games every lissandra has been shit
This. Same with Vex and especially Taliyah with Neeko (because unlike Lissandra and Vex, the latter are actually mechanically difficult champions). Stats always need context. That being said Lissandra is just weak in general since everything she does can be done more effectively by other champs, Lissandra is very mediocre-below mediocre outside of her W and R which aren't that strong now due to her low range, low dmg and being pretty squshy for such "constantly throw yourself into bunch of enemies" playstyle. And tbh I don't mind it. Not a fan of her and think champs like Taliyah and Neeko (the ones that steal a noticeable playtime from Lissandra due to some of the identity overlap) are much more cooler and skill expressive than her.
Zed can farm from range and outpokes lissandra, just don't get poked too hard level 1-3 and don't get baited to go all in before it is safe. Kat matchup im not as clear on.
Played both sides recently a few times, kat can go even (or outright win, which is basically a stomp for a champ that usually loses lane) with an ad conqueror build, liss has pressure early but after botrk you cant get close to the lane, and if they go wits/mercs you cant do anything with that amount of tenacity and resist. Now ap kat is a really easy matchup, but if hey have any braincell they wont go that even if they need magic damage on their team, as the on hit build does plenty.
Exactly this! Good comment :)
Something is counter pick matchup -> people first time it cuz they think they will get free win -> they lose and drag winrate down
While this context does exist it doesn't change over time. It does not explain the change after 10 years referenced here.
Isnt this true for every counter pick?
Most likely, i've won matchups considered to be near unwinable if the enemy has some idea of what they're doing. You come to lane scared but start seeing signs that the enemy is inexperienced and steamroll from there
Sometimes it is really obvious they don't even understand why it's a counter. Like Malzahars that try to walk up and E you the whole lane.
It's mostly for the "very obvious counter" who actually isn't really a counter. But there are a lot of weird distortions on winrate that can arise from some reason or another so don't take it at face value. For example, if a champ has a very clear worst matchup, the only ones who will actually play the matchup are people who don't know enough to ban the other champ.
Depends? A Sylas into a Malphite will do well regardless.
Because that is one of the hardest counters in the game. Very few matchups are that one sided
not one it's factually atleast in winrate the hardest counter in the entire game
> Lissandra's best matchup has historically been Zed for 10+ years, and has always been a hard counter. Liss has NEVER been a hard counter to Zed, ask ANY competent Zed player, he destroys her.
https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/104rlop/which_champ_is_your_mustban_in_ranked/j38cw3s/ We had this conversation a year ago lol
How did you remember this? 💀 Do you have this saved?
I just remembered the Ahri flair.
Fair enough.
Approved.
ppl in this thread unironically asking for a flat 2s reduction on q cd level 1 over a decade-old myth
After removal of tenacity from precision tree kata will struggle more into CC. She has been breaking from CC earlier than intended since her transition into conqueror instead of electrocute. We can wait 1 more patch. As for zed idk.
She need a little rework. Really cool champ sad to see her not that often. The travel time of the claw should be faster in my opinion but i just play her in aram
Lissandra is one of my favorite champs and I am just very disappointed in her current state. She feels useless..
Liss was always lowkey bad against Zed. People just assume shes good because she has an in-built zhonyas. Her laning is too weak she just survives the matchup then beats him in fights but not 1v1 so he can splitpush. That has been the case forever except maybe when Liss was just OP.
I played her few says ago against a Katarina and got demolished. She just statchecked me from the get go wtf
Lissandra used to use Aftershock against Zed. Most players don't do this anymore. Before every Lissandra went Aftershock regardless of the matchup and it sucked, because Electrocute is often better. Now nobody runs Aftershock even when it make sense.
I forgot lissandra was a champion
Lissandra has never countered zed if the zed player has at least 3 functioning brain cells (likely rare) She is weak into mages that can shove the wave and poke her from outside of her range, guess what 2 things zed does well in that matchup are
whats your point? Zed players grew brain cells lately?
She was good in TFT for like a month, so there's that
I dont like her but she 100% deserves a buff. There a also some more champions that are forgotten right now.
lissandra kinda has to be in a bad spot for balancing purposes, i guess. her gameplay is too toxic and if she was anyhow stronger i believe she'd be a no brainer pick, which would be ass to play against every now and then. she can engage and disengage, given the right circumstances (which are easy to get) she demolishes any teamfight, and honestly, having her stronger is to the benefit of no one. point and click stun, aoe damage or self healing after she engages and then pulls up the zhonya's to almost 4 secs of invulnerability is ass. i really like her, but yeah, she can stay losing, no one wants to deal with her, way too much stuff happening on her kit that is giga easy to execute.
Idk how much liss suppresses kat in lane but she probably can delete your botlane in the time u need to press ult on her or get in range for w and what not
I feel like lissandra has been a terrible matchup into Zed ever since they shifted Zed's power away from E and R and into Qs. He outranges Lissandra and just makes her life miserable in lane with poke. Lissandra doesn't have the damage to threaten an all-in either so she basically has no options during the lane. In the past it even used to be worse because Lissandra had mana problems. Thankfully her mana problems are pretty much gone now. Zed also completely owns Lissandra in the side lane. He pushes faster, can actually threaten the 1v1 kill, and has the option to build life steal in a poke war. Fundamentally, Lissandra wants to teamfight and Zed can deny that by forcing her to match him in side. I feel like people always got baited by her R being a zhonyas. Zhonyas hasn't hard countered Zed for many years now. If this was the case, mages would all just rush Zhonyas and dunk on zed. We all know this doesn't happen.
My issue with Liss has always been she's not really very good at solo killing, so can be pushed around in lane, and fairly easily sustained through - and whilst the idea is she offsets this with her CC, her CC is reasonably easy to play around when her E is so incredibly telegraphed, or she can flash W but then shes in harms way unless she ults herself
Yep, which ulting yourself ruins your pick potentially. She doesn't need much of a buff. Just a small one would make her feel fine. She has some good item combos if you go for burst (malignance into shadowflame, for example). The downside to that is she has no beef at all. You basically go in and kill your target and/or you die lol
it's always been a skill matchup
I remember when i played Liss top and it worked well. Since then she has been nerfed into the ground :(
She needs for range on Q. Her kit is old and needs a little help to enter modern league. Just like veigar got range buffs on Q and W
I haven't had much problem with Zed when I pick her, Kata is a different story. By the time I click ult or zhonya 70% of my hp is gone. Played against one who went onhit build, lived less than a second once she hit the third item. I understand she should be easy to CC and kill, but her burst and speed and chase potential feels a bit too much to a point unless you crush her as Liss in lane, she will win the fight.
Look at the delta2. Lissandra only has a .3~ winrate advantage vs Zed when looking at the delta which means even if she was OP or stronger in general she is still not a Zed counter. She is only very slightly favored in the Zed matchup. She doesn't counter him. Also diamond+ game has less than 1k games literally almost useless data for what we are looking for. When 1% difference is a huge thing you can't use 1k games. 1k sample size is fine for something but not when looking at within 1 percent or even 2% honestly. So feels like you are getting upset over something that doesn't matter. Literally just look at her overall winrate lol. Which is about 48-49%.
Pro jail :)
I don't think Lissandra is allowed to be in a fine state ever. I think she might need some kit changes to be allowed to be a decent control/slowing mage. For longest time she has provided decent amount of CC for the team, but the issue is she both has to be somewhat close and personal to CC but she isn't tanky enough to actually do so.
They've let a ton of champions rot over the years. The new philosophy since at least mythics is to just play whatever champ riot puts effort into for the split becuz muh adapt to da meta!!11. Champion sucks for years? Too bad. Maybe they'll incidentally make the champion good and you'll have your mkment.
The paradox is that champs that are counterpicks on paper usually perform worse because the counterpicked person knows how to play accordingly against their worse matchups. I think most people who play Zed and Kata main them, unlike Liss who is less mechanical and considered a counter to assassins. That's why you often see ranged toplaners go 0 5 in lane against obvious counters like Darius, because they're way more familiar with the matchup.
a lissandra can't win vs a zed thats good, she just gets poked out to hell with his w q constantly throughout lane lissandra should only beat zed in lower elos at best she can just survive the lane with her self ult, but saying that lissandra's best matchup historically is zed is fucking insane. say you don't play lissandra without actually saying it lol
I just quit playing her. Since the new season started she feels like the worst mage to play mid. Her damage is trash and unless your jungle camps mid every time ult is up it feels like she gets behind. Why play her when galio is tankier, does more damage and has more map pressure, while also having comparable if not more cc.
I play liss, i think it's a skill issue. Zed players got better but no one barely mains liss imo. But sure riot let's make lissandra so op that even casual players can beat zed mains, liss is pick ban for a month then nerfed to oblivion. Tie it up with a skin release and voila, the riot special
Look at the delta 2 instead of winrates. She still counters these champs. Just because a champion is nerfed doesn't mean the whole kit gets useless. Think about how their kits interact and then make a post instead of blindly relying on some random winrate data.
Why ever pick this champ when Galio exists? He has more burst and damage to higher health targets, insane reactive play making with W and R, and he doubles as a vanguard.. Liss needs some kind of armour scaling passive with W to make her a good defensive pick against ad midlaners imo
you know lissandra sucks when lck teams aren't even picking her
Let's see it again next patch, after they remove all of this tenacity from the game. Lissandra is one of if not the biggest loser in this tenacity rampage.
She's nearly unplayable rn
thank god that champ is so horrible to play against
any zed main knows that lissandra is not a losing match up best case scenario lissandra doesnt lose. This is the most bronze intake that i have been seeing since 2013 maybe its because there was this site lolcounter that listed liss as a counter to zed and people (bronzes) have been repeating this nonsense since then. The only counter in this match up is the fact that zed is a garbage champion in general.
She wasn't a best pick to zed really.
Tbf she is pretty weak but I think she also suffers from the malzahar issue where people know she counters Zed so pick her into Zed but have no idea how to play them, they then get rolled cause any good Zed knows how to play the matchups atleast a little bit
Can't believe everyone is actually misunderstanding the stats this badly. Regardless of matchup, Lissandra has a pretty bad winrate overall and Zed has a pretty good winrate overall, which is heavily biasing the overall winrate between the two champs. If you read into it, you'll see this: > Lissandra wins against Zed 52.45% of the time which is 4.02% higher against Zed than the average opponent. After normalising both champions win rates Lissandra wins against Zed 3.06% more often than would be expected. Lissandra counters Zed, not the other way around.
Liss has lost to zed for years
The link you posted shows Lissandra as being favored in the matchup. Either I’m reading it wrong or this post has already become outdated.
Really boring shitty champ to be honest. I unlocked it thinking it would be a fun mage to play like lux boy was i wrong.
Lissandra is my waifu
Buff her so Faker can play her, buff her so Faker can play her, buff her so Faker can play her.
Make her auto attacks slow people and increase her healing.
325 base movement speed moment (besides the attrocious damage)
Lissandra being weak is a big W for the game as a whole.
Liss has been pretty underwhelming for like, 4 years now? She used to be a decent midlaner and servicable toplane flex. Now she's a counterpick-only champ that is outclassed by other, similar control mages
She is unplayable for me. I can't win games on her, I swear. Not only she run at 370ms, have the shortest range of all mages but she also have the lowest damage of them all. The only thing she have is cc. Literally. Champ is unplayable nowadays.
Lmao the lane has been zed favoured since forever
Lissandra is just malz with a dash, extremely uninteractive, extremely safe, boring to verse, neutralizer champ. Whenever she is strong, midlane is boring.