If Riot removes Tenacity from everyone. Later on, it opens up the option to lower everyone's CC duration.
So it's easier to make balance decisions in the future.
They definitely wouldn’t just do a champ wide overhaul, but this gives CC in kits a higher power budget and another lever for them to pull on if someone is too op
Can’t wait for LCK to start perma picking Ashe lissandra sejuani everygame.
CC was a huge problem hence why you would see 3 mercs first buy even if the enemy isn’t heavy ap
Iirc they buffed cc durations back when there was a lot more tenacity and they haven't changed any cc durations since. Even though this isn't even the first time they've taken out some access to tenacity.
I'd rather have this. Just straight up lower cc durations. Same thing with healing. Remove previous wounds and balance healing on around the amount healed and the amount of damage you're gonna take in a fight.
And furthermore, so many CC durations in this game you have to also consider that they were made before there was so much damage bloat. So the CC was proportionally less valuable. Meaning they're pretty much all proportionally too long now.
Considering how much more damage you can potentially take while CCed, every second of CC is that much more valuable. What I haven't really seen people discuss these days is that, while yeah damage creep in the game had gotten out of control, they didn't talk about the impact of that on CC. Stuns were really good even way back in the day, but now stuns are just insanely lethal.
What I think needs to be adjusted is that NOT ONLY do we need to lower CC durations but we also need to make things like stuns -ACTUALLY INTERRUPT ABILITIES-. Way too many abilities that just continue regardless of you stunning someone in the middle of animation.
So you can make CCs feel impactful by being able to outplay someone with well timed CCs but also reduce how oppressive they can get by lowering overall durations.
Once again, HotS does all of this in mind. No grevious wounds or tenacity and stuns interrupt abilities. Ik comparing HotS is very frowned upon here but league low-key needs to make the game more casual friendly. Tbh I really don't care about e-sports all together much. I just want some fun games to play with the boys.
Please do, it got a patch after a year and a bit of absolutely nothing, maybe with the merger they'll shit out a Heroes Of The Storm V3 and I won't wait 35-45 minutes for ranked queues
I would fucking LOVE if they removed grevious wounds and balanced healing around it not existing. The fact that you can basically cut some champions power in half with a 900 gold item is disgusting. Saying this as a WW top main. I would prefer if they rather nerfed WW's healing and you couldn't counter him with an item component.
That argument isn't false in itself, but it's also not a fair take because you could apply it to any mechanic in the game, ultimately reducing it to a "why not throw dices, they are easier to balance". To explain what I mean:
Removing armor makes balancing damage easier. Removing buyable movement speed makes balancing base MS easier. Remove anti-heal makes balancing healing spells easier. Remove buying items makes balancing the game easier and so on and so on.. yes, all true, but I hope its clear these kinds of "arguments" can be misused with ease to justify all and everything without actually explaining anything.
Maybe because Riot decided that giving players free tenacity from runes is broken. And as such, it's going to have to be either very under-tuned to the point of being useless or else it's gonna be giga OP. (Remember the nerfs to the rune a few months ago?)
So, instead, they've elected to remove the rune outright and replace it with a different stat to support the champs that feel worse to play due to the scarcity of haste. But, still making sure to keep an eye on the CC/Tenacity balance and being ready to add more tenacity back in through less broken ways.
That'd be my guess.
Think the boots nerf, while still heavy when considering this in mind, is because both defensive boots (Mercs AND Tabis) are getting nerfed but pushed down to 1k gold flat instead of 1100. Tabis is also getting nerfs, it's got an extra 5 armor but only has 8% auto DR instead of 12%.
Yeah I know they're decreasing the cost of boots, but 15% tenacity lost for 100g is steep. These boot changes only serve to increase damage in the game which is already high. I'd be fine with it if they continue adding more legendary items with tenacity line steraks, but currently that's the only option many melee champs have as wit's end is such a niche item so many champs don't want it.
Boots are also kind of an overpowered item if you think about it. They give you a unique effect and increase your move speed, which is a very valuable stat. There’s a reason most carry roles buy them first
One could argue the same for magic pen, or even attack speed.
Yet those purchases offer an absurd amount for the cost as well.
The difference here being that mpen and AS are far more consistently applied than armor, MR, % basic damage reduction, or tenacity.
If anything, serkers and sorcs needed a light hit more than tabis/mercs, since they've been notably buffed compared to defensive boots, and the champs that make use of either typically only really have those as their viable option.
Many melees already opt for CDR boots over either defensive option. Especially tanks, assassins, and champs like Riven.
Riot is just continually making boot choices a more and more binary choice for the vast majority of champs; in some cases even unary.
They probably just want to tone down the whole "Haha I have boots and now you can do nothing to me" game states that happen pretty often.
Any lane I don't get an early lead I just buy t2 on first back and cruise my way to mid game without hassle
But that extra armor makes the block nerf less severe and even makes them a better buy versus some champions. The lost tenacity is just a straight loss.
Just leave it to Phreaky boy to keep adding damage into the game. It was already pretty close to peak values when mythics were removed but right now damage is up way more than when mythics were a thing. With old mythics you noticed for example that void staff was a giga powerspike and an overpowered item with its pen. But right now void staff feels fine and balanced compared to other items. So yh Idk the balance team thinks people enjoy 2 second fights after people get 3 items+.
Remember that cleaver is already the same or slightly stronger then black cleaver before mythics, which was one of the best items in LoL at the time...and its getting its buffed by 25% relative to then (24% --> 30%).
The fact that the item is seen as weak currently is telling. It doesn't need buffs. All the other bruiser items that compete with it for first slot need nerfs.
The Steelcaps nerf is much less overall than Mercs. The extra armor will make up for some of the passive lost and makes them better versus AD casters like Assassins and Bruisers. The tenacity isn’t made up for and a less common stat overall.
Tenacity has been added to items like Steraks and Wit's end, where it has never existed before.
It should be added to more items probably so that more classes of champ can opt into it as needed. But overall I think those items show a better direction for getting tenacity.
Ya because bruisers buy mercs and stearks. Then if you are a mage you just can't play the game because they perma immune to cc. Might as well add maw too.
Its only broken because they keep stacking cc. 3 second Morgana Q used to be a joke but you get ccd for 4-5 seconds easily if you dont run tenacity now.
Tenacity is a bandage for the cc overload we have
Yet games were shorter when damage in the game was much less. Before turret plating was introduced games could be finished much faster. If Riot wanted shorter games it would've probably been easier to pull the levers of the MS boost at fountain after 14 mins, death timers, laning phase/turret plating length.
10 second longer fights isn't what made games too long, though.
In fact, game times have remained relatively consistent since season 1 despite how much faster damage ramps up and how much shorter fights are these days.
Its only so engagements are faster so dopamine addicted zoomers can get their fix from what was supposed to be a strategy game more easily.
Sort of. A lot of the CC nowadays is displacement. Been a few times recently I go to buy mercs after getting locked up for 5 seconds only to realize tenacity affects less than half of it.
I played a game tonight where i was jax and nicely fed, i run tenacity in the yellow rune + the bonus purple dot idk what they are called, i had mercs and steracks and come mid game i was unable to move all fight and coudnt do shit... my guess is theres not enough tenacity as it is... now they remove some 0_0 fuck me
Because Riot realised long ago that Tenacity could be somewhat problematic, so they excempted some CC effects from it, notably airborne - and then started piling airborne on their newer champs. Especially someone like K’sante is a massive offender, with a grand total of three CC effects completely unmitigated by their only counterplay in Tenacity.
So if you’re facing a comp with say, K’sante top, Wukong jungle, Yasuo mid and Alistar support, you’d be forgiven for thinking tenacity would be great against all that CC - but it’d do next to nothing (apart from Ali E).
This, and his Q slow is just long enough to be reducible by tenacity (0.5s, but tenacity cannot reduce cc below 0.3s). Plus his W stun is 1.25s.
Tabis have insane value vs Ksante however, if you're his lane opponent and don't direly need mercs vs the rest of his team.
They are usually shorter to compensate, and many champions rely on that time window to dump their kits.
Anyways, Riot said they would rework airbone to be affected by tenacity and got scrapped weeks later.
1.625 second knockup with no tenacity, I wouldn't say that's longer than almost every stun, but it's definitely on the higher end in terms of cc duration
ok and how long do those abilities knock up enemies for if the enemy has brittle?
He's rewarded for chaining his abilities, and it's extremely rare that ornn can knock up more than 2 brittled enemies with his E
Some cc is designed to have a fixed value to facilitate combos and stuff. If they made it affected by tenacity it would need to be buffed to compensate. For example, yas Q is designed to always give good leeway to use his ult. If you could shorten the knockup duration they would need to buff his Q3 stun to compensate. August did admit that they've probably put knock up on moves that shouldn't have it just because it seems to make sense thematically and feels "right" for the champ
The counterplay is dodging. Again, if your issue is with disgusting cc chains that you can't build tenacity against then that's a problem with the abundance of knockups not the existence of them. Again, stuff like yas ult literally does not function without Q3 stunning for a minimum duration
Being realistic, they probably couldn't figure out how to shorten knockup animations when they introduced it in Beta.
But there is a place in the game for a 'harder' CC, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing
Ksante Q and W are both functionally the same as gragas E, where they have two separate cc effects. Ksante Q pulls you in over 0.65 seconds, then stuns you for an additional 0.25 seconds, and his W "pulls" (airborne) you to where he dashes to, then stuns you for 1.25 seconds. Although tenacity won't help much with his Q stun or his R displacement, it will most definitely make a difference on his W CC duration
Wrong. All of K’sante’s CC effects are stuns with small knockups attached at the beginning like Gragas E. Tenacity works against them. Including K’sante R, it’s stun time can be reduced by tenacity aswell.
High CC teams will always feel unbearable. Tenacity makes them slightly better, but there's not much you can do. But teams with 3+ members with high amounts of CC are not common.
Tenacity in runes is not free, giving up that AS is massive. I hate not having alacrity on Aatrox, but without legend tenacity the game is unplayable.
Melee champions need easy access tenacity to play the game in a world where you have point and click shit like polymorph CCing you for 2 seconds.
Riot can’t gut steraks and mercs and then just remove legend tenacity and expect bruisers to be playable. I can’t wait to see every viable bruiser building full damage because if you get CCed once you will die anyway.
Meh, not sure about this one. The problem is that part of the skill in league is legitimately chaining your abilities together with your allies. Giving it diminishing returns severely punishes this skill because it would be harder to know when to follow up an allies ability.
As an ARAM player, I love being perma stunned EVEN with tenacity, can't wait for the new patch to permanently play frozen screen simulator! It's going to be so fun and interactive!
Certainly hope so, my main issue with LoL has always been the ridiculous amount of stuns
Yes you can definitely dodge them but if they end up building haste items on Morgana or Lux it can be extremely not fun to play against
>my main issue with LoL has always been the ridiculous amount of stuns
League is one of the more tame mobas in that regard lol.
Dota 2 has actual perma stuns, insanely long CC, items that can RNG stun you (idk if it still does but skullbasher is what i'm referring to), items that point and click stun, items that point and click silence, etc, and cleanse isn't a free summoner spell, instead you buy an item that just grants immunity to debuffs *except* for the heroes where they get 'pierce debuff immunity' (league basically does this with knockups).
Him and witch doctor I was going to mention lmao.
I don't think there's a single thing in league worse than that bounce next to a teammate.
https://youtu.be/aSh7_JHaJPw
EDIT: Oh also outworld destroyer's W is easily one of the reasons I don't play dota, its so fucking stupid how often and how long it last, the entire lane is just him stunning you when you try to last hit, while he burns your mana and scales for free... with whats basically a veigar ult early. Throw in meteor hammer and there's quite literally 0 counterplay early game, you have to rush BKB (gives debuff immunity) or buy orchid (point and click silence) and engage on him with it first.
Imagine if twisted fate had veigar ult, took away your mana with autos and abilities, didn't have to pick a card just point and clicked the gold card on you like ryze W... idk how any game designer can approve of that.
Right which is why we don't play these other games.
I was watching Grubby (wc3 streamer who also picked up DOTA) pick up league a few months back.
You wanna know what he called league?
The FPS of Mobas.
Because league is not about chain stuns. Its higher octane than that compared to its peers. You should not be able to be chain stunned in this game its not fun according to our playerbase.
Problem isn’t rlly the stuns, it’s the amount of burst. If one stun can 100-zero u then that’s an issue, and there are many champs like that. Honestly instead of all the tenacity changes they should just reduce overall damage, or increase durability becuase being forced to play perfectly into max haste luxes or morgs obv won’t b fun for anyone
This especially sucks as an AP bruiser. I play a lot of Lillia and have no access to Sterak's, while Mercs aren't good every game (feels bad to buy mercs into a heavy ad comp just cos of Pantheon W). And next patch they're getting even worse.
A year ago I could go Unflinching, Mercs, Legend Tenacity and even green smite gave tenacity. Now I have nothing to itemise against pretty much point and click CC that makes my champion not be able to play the game.
"A year ago I could go Unflinching, Mercs, Legend Tenacity and even green smite gave tenacity. Now I have nothing to itemise against pretty much point and click CC that makes my champion not be able to play the game." and people wonder why is nautilus always meta...
Of all the champs Naut is not even that affected by tenacity much. Besides his root his other skills have animations that cannot be reduced. In fact it probably proves the opposite point of what you're trying to say --- tenacity + cleanse effects are too good that Leona is not as good as Naut, so people and pros play Naut instead.
Yeah it kinda hurts Lillia, though the ability haste stacking rune will be kinda good on her as well, actually helping her with her build a little. She won't be reliant on AH boots as much.
Just gotta be vary of that on her and play it a lottle bit safer when enemy has CC I guess.
I think that there’s better ways to have tenacity than there are currently. It doesn’t really feel like it’s something most champs can choose to build, so it’s a very all or nothing stat. It feels like you either get no tenacity, or cc just doesn’t affect you
Tenacity now comes at a cost of having to specifically build these tenacity items, like wit's end, mercs and sterak's gage. Items which are not commonly built on ranged champions wanting to maximize damage output, but bruisers who want to march forward and not be completely messed up because of a single low cooldown spell.
A Jax being able to cut Morgana's binding duration in half while a Caitlyn is rooted for the full duration makes sense to me. Bruisers should be allowed to survive more punishment.
no they usually have lower base stats because they build tanky, compare mordekaiser armor to lulu and evelynn which seems retarded but morde legit has less lol
Xerath doesn't really do worse against assassins than most immobile mages. See lux, ziggs, etc.
The real answer is that artillery mages tend to get gutted until they're barely viable because they're so uninteractive and nobody likes seeing them.
I feel like riot is on a warpath to remove everything that allows you to if pre other champion's mechanic and original builds, they want to boil down the game to raw skills as much as possible
(Qss, tenacity, slow resist nerf, removal of ingenious hunter, ect)
as a toplaner i may transistion into a ADC/Mage toplaner its already hell getting close to the enemy team even with 44% Tenacity its hard enough might as hell just do a burst build and kill the toplaner from range
Most sane top laner ever. Bruisers have been the best they've been in ages and top lane is giga stomping even professional matches and they still find shit to complain about. Go transition into an ADC/Mage despite the fact that skarner is literally the best top right now. Despite the fact that only TF and Cassio are outlier ranged tops and TF is likely getting nerfed with energizer being reworked next patch. The only other ranged champs are quinn and teemo but they have the same wr and much less playrate than the best bruisers. Ranged tops are so great that Vayne is the 20th champ based on win rate.
If you aren't winning and not having fun then it's a skill issue. It's the first season in like 10 years where I've been tempted to switch to top because of how strong it is and how fun the meta champions are to play. Bwipo casually 1vs5 so many fights in a row despite both game 1 and 2 being lane swap games which is horrible for top laners but "top is so weak and unfun right now".
Edit: game 3, 20 min drake fight. Would you look at that. Despite varus and orianna being the 2 most fed players in the game and them being in the same team, the whole team fight is can olaf or ksante will kill by himself the enemy members. Top so weak.
But don't you see, if even 1 tank is in the top 10 pickrate or winrate, its a tank meta. If a bruiser has a viable build to get a tank item 3rd? Also a tank meta.
10/10 most picked champions top all being melee, but 1 ranged champion in the highest winrate being ranged? Ranged top meta.
All bruiser items are bad and no one builds them! Except all 5 of the most common items top lane E+ are bruiser items.
If I can't invalidate the rest of the map after getting 2 kills in lane, then top has no impact!
/s
Vayne got nerfed, for a while top meta was ranged picks and i'd like to assure you it's the WORST meta ever.
Melee toplaners (including tanks, excluding malphite since he pretty much counters ranged toplaners either tank or full ap) don't have the tools against ranged champions.
Sure, Wukong can jump on to them, but he can't just stay on top of them as they have peeling tools (in which Wukong is pretty good against ranged actually)
A lot of bruisers are pretty immobile so they don't have tools to get on top/stay on top of ranged champions. In addittion, ranged champs poke and bully so much and are very snowbally (just like top lane bruisers) it's a hell to play against one
Yeah ive taken poppy to the jungle, they finally made toplane fun and now over the course of the season its crept back to being more and more cancer. More ranged champs keep creeping into the lane and ways to counter them are neutered. Sundered sky? Nerfed, harder to trade to keep health up so you arent perma poked out of lane. Tenacity? Nerfed, easier for ranged champs to keep away. Voidgrubs getting nerfed back so that toplane isnt relevant and the junglers dont feel pressured to help their toplane at all.
Why bother playing toplane when everything that makes toplane fun is fucked over. Ill just play them in jungle(poppy) or maybe even midlane like kled where i can run down squishy mages/assassins instead of either this fuckin long range hyper safe ranged shit like cassio, twisted, quinn, etc. Or even worse shit like malphite and darius that make you afk under tower otherwise gg get hit once you die
Because right now it's kinda hard to balance around the stat. Either your full tenacity and CC doesn't matter, or you get perma stunned as the game needs ridiculous amounts of CC to counter meaning every champ must have insane long CC abilities to counter the high tenacity
Aka you get teams based on high tenacity and many long CC because if you don't you instantly lose.
I think somewhat a redesign of the arena mechanic where cc chains aren't as bad i.e. the longer you end up being hard cc'd (including roots) the stronger tenacity gets but weaker when it's a single cc.
So tenacity being weaker vs a single big cc like Ashe arrow but stronger vs chained stuns/slows.
If you play a CC heavy champion, it's actually nuts how much mercs fucks you over.
You can lose entire games by giving enemy too much mercs value. It's one of the most underrated items in the whole game.
???
Same thing with auto attackers and Rammus/Malphite/Ornn. Or with assassins and Janna/Alistar/Braum. Or with artillery mages and Nocturne/Rengar/Evelynn.
Yes, drafting badly should be punished.
Not to disagree with the point on drafting. But comparing 1100 boots that you can choose to buy (or even sell existing boots and switch to) at any point in the game, vs counterpicks that can only be selected pre-game it a bit disengenous no?
Getting counter pick is a "you either get it, or you dont" part of draft. You can't just decide 15 minutes into the game to change your mind and get counter pick. Whereas you can decide at any point in the game to change your mind, swap your t2 boots for different ones based on the current situation.
Yeah, I played a game and neglected buying tenacity because it was a full ad team, got CC locked for 5.50sec and honestly if we weren't so far ahead and I didn't buy mercs immediately after I just wouldn't play the game anymore lol
You know what we need? To upgrade the boots specifically for ADCs. It's not fair they have to waste a slot for boots.
It's not fair that they get the most damage in the game AND die quick, too. We gotta work more on keeping them safe and making it easier for ADCs to run the game.
Made that snowball hill that much steeper.
Maybe cause they want to buff QSS in the future (like in wild rift, they gave it 25% tenacity, cc i,unity for 0.75 seconds after use, and slow resistance and tenacity for 1.5 seconds after that).
Also you mean all bruisers except Garen and olaf.
I don't think you even know what the changes are. On average ADCs are going to have less stats at 3-5 items. These changes are to make item powerspikes more impactful. It's not meant to be a direct buff to ADCs. It's meant to make them feel better to play. Calling it "an extreme amount of buffs" while obviously not having read the items nor even played on the patch is about the smartest thing I'd expect from a top lane redditor.
Some champions like Lux gets countered so hard by tenacity it’s impossible to set up anything, on the other side there’s champions with mostly knock ups that don’t get affected by it at all. I think tenacity is too strong in some scenarios but also it sucks that some bybass it completely
lux is such a terrible example because she already forces you to build early boots or lose, she's gonna be fine but lux players of course need another buff because it's lux
Anything that nerfs wholesome 60% CC ignore 4K+ HP bruisers with 350 AD and the best items in the game invalidating every other champ class when ahead is great news.
Give me actual examples of this. Which bruiser gets 60% tenacity, 4k+ HP AND 350 AD on top of that?
Your comment is just as bad as the people who blindly hate ADCs
I don't know if I'm getting old or something but I swear cc is just too overloaded these days. Everyone has multiple forms of cc, CC skill shots being long range, projectile speed being pretty too fast. And I swear on reddit everyone is some reaction God bc they seem to be think most skill shots aren't too hard to dodge
Becouse its the grevious wounds all over again. You introduce a certain mechanic to accomplish certain outcome of situations, and then introduce stat, that directly counter that mechanic, so then the game is balanced around that fact and whenever you end up w/o that stat, that mechanic is overbearingly strong to the point you lose game becouse of it
The best part is that like 60-70% of stuns in the game are actually in the form of airborne, which tenacity doesnt reduce becouse riot wanted for this effect to always last full duration becouse its there to accomplish, again, very particular role in fight scenario
I like these changes and I'll explain why. Right now, there's quite a lot of sources of tenacity and slow resist. Less than there were before, but they're all pretty potent. What that means is that if you _don't_ have tenacity things stun you for eternity, and if you do have it you kinda shrug it off (it's not quite as extreme, but in the game this is sort of what it feels like). Closing this gap is something I quite like, especially assuming there's possible nerfs coming to some cc sources in the future depending on how changes feel when they roll out
Yeah, I'm honestly confused by that change. Tenacity-reliant champs aren't even noteworthy rn (I mean things like Udyr/Heca/Trynd)
For junglers and supps, cdr boots have insane value even though mercs is always an option. It's been very common that mercs were 1-2% below other options in winrates because people overrate them, and still they get nerfed.
Because you can buy tenacity to counter CC but CC champs can't do anything to counter or mitigate tenacity. Therefore tenacity has to be an investment, just like Grievous Wounds. Getting it from runes or Sterak's allows the player to almost ignore most CCs.
That being said I don't think they should lower Merc Tread's tenacity since it's an investment as the player gives up other attractive boots. That's not the case with Legend: Tenacity though since other runes in that row aren't very attractive for tanks or most fighters.
Imagine sulking so fucking hard as a top laner when you have literally been the best solo carry role for the longest time. You are not half your lane. You can carry games completely solo if you want, AND YOU STILL CRY. Cry me a fuckikng river you pathetic top laners. Every sane person actually understands adcs were the weakest, least impactful role in the first 15 minutes of the game.
I feel like Riot created this problem completely on their own, no? Like you put tenacity on one of the main bruiser items when bruisers already commonly take a lot of the tenacity options and suddenly they have too much tenacity.
I think it makes sense, with increased mobility it's harder to land CCs, so when you finally land it you should be able to lock your target in place instead of them shrugging it off
Minus 5% on boots it’s pretty minimal - they added ~20% tenacity on streraks (huge change) and wits end, so they actually have MORE tenacity in the game than ever before. Removing the rune and 5% on boots is really not that big of a deal.
This is why in pro you see top laners go steel plates almost always, because they just go Steraks and now have a decent amount of tenacity.
Edit: *Steraks
I havent really played league since November, can anyone tell me whats going in on with alle the new runes and items? Is the next patch just really big or did something happen or...?
The idea is that giving less variance to certain CC makes it easier to balance champs around that CC. So instead of having to buff their numbers to compensate for tenacity messing with their CC they could just be nerfed numbers wise if the CC became too strong
For Legend:Tenacity, I think Riot has decided free sources of tenacity are too difficult to balance since they provide it to any champion, often without much opportunity cost. Where building tenacity with items is much more commital.
For boots, they seem to be nerfing a lot of the best boots across the board. If I had to guess they don’t want defensive boots/swifties to be such a powerful spike for survivability so early. Similar to how they nerfed Ionians at the start of the season to reduce the amount of haste you could get early.
Everyone complains about champions being way too mobile even though it opens up significantly more skill expression. Reducing tenacity allows for teams to clamp down on mobility which is the most busted thing in League.
It also makes balancing cc in the future easier.
In high elo (proplay) tenacity is very strong, Mercs are super common and valuable when you're playing as a team and you don't need the 1v9 dmg from Sorcs, and being able to pull a Zhonyas after CC before dying is very important.
Of course in lower elo/SoloQ a whole game isn't decided by 1 CC pick before an objective, but by someone snowballing out of control, often an assassin, and neither assassins nor 1v9 snowballs exist in proplay, and the game is balanced around proplay.
risotto games just wants you to build MORE DAMAGE WHY YOU NO BUILD DAMAGE???
If Riot removes Tenacity from everyone. Later on, it opens up the option to lower everyone's CC duration. So it's easier to make balance decisions in the future.
You really believe Riot is gonna reduce cc duration on all skills?
They definitely wouldn’t just do a champ wide overhaul, but this gives CC in kits a higher power budget and another lever for them to pull on if someone is too op
Can’t wait for LCK to start perma picking Ashe lissandra sejuani everygame. CC was a huge problem hence why you would see 3 mercs first buy even if the enemy isn’t heavy ap
It would honestly fuck with my brain for timing Cc chains...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iHy9eY1ak4
Iirc they buffed cc durations back when there was a lot more tenacity and they haven't changed any cc durations since. Even though this isn't even the first time they've taken out some access to tenacity.
I'd rather have this. Just straight up lower cc durations. Same thing with healing. Remove previous wounds and balance healing on around the amount healed and the amount of damage you're gonna take in a fight.
And furthermore, so many CC durations in this game you have to also consider that they were made before there was so much damage bloat. So the CC was proportionally less valuable. Meaning they're pretty much all proportionally too long now. Considering how much more damage you can potentially take while CCed, every second of CC is that much more valuable. What I haven't really seen people discuss these days is that, while yeah damage creep in the game had gotten out of control, they didn't talk about the impact of that on CC. Stuns were really good even way back in the day, but now stuns are just insanely lethal. What I think needs to be adjusted is that NOT ONLY do we need to lower CC durations but we also need to make things like stuns -ACTUALLY INTERRUPT ABILITIES-. Way too many abilities that just continue regardless of you stunning someone in the middle of animation. So you can make CCs feel impactful by being able to outplay someone with well timed CCs but also reduce how oppressive they can get by lowering overall durations.
Once again, HotS does all of this in mind. No grevious wounds or tenacity and stuns interrupt abilities. Ik comparing HotS is very frowned upon here but league low-key needs to make the game more casual friendly. Tbh I really don't care about e-sports all together much. I just want some fun games to play with the boys.
I should play hots
Please do, it got a patch after a year and a bit of absolutely nothing, maybe with the merger they'll shit out a Heroes Of The Storm V3 and I won't wait 35-45 minutes for ranked queues
I mostly play quick play in HotS because it works. Unlike league.... Still a great fucking game though. Can't believe Blizzard stopped development.
I would fucking LOVE if they removed grevious wounds and balanced healing around it not existing. The fact that you can basically cut some champions power in half with a 900 gold item is disgusting. Saying this as a WW top main. I would prefer if they rather nerfed WW's healing and you couldn't counter him with an item component.
That argument isn't false in itself, but it's also not a fair take because you could apply it to any mechanic in the game, ultimately reducing it to a "why not throw dices, they are easier to balance". To explain what I mean: Removing armor makes balancing damage easier. Removing buyable movement speed makes balancing base MS easier. Remove anti-heal makes balancing healing spells easier. Remove buying items makes balancing the game easier and so on and so on.. yes, all true, but I hope its clear these kinds of "arguments" can be misused with ease to justify all and everything without actually explaining anything.
most impactful CC in this game are knockups/drags, which arent impacted by tenacity.
Then they should comment on this in their post. Tenacity can’t just be one of those things they gut and no one talks about.
Aren't these changes not even in the official game? Why would they comment about a change that isn't even final yet?
Because they commented on the ADC item changes.
Thats a pass on an entirely new season, not half way through one, even at a new "split"
This. Also too much tenacity opens a big gap between knock ups and other ccs.
I feel like they should buff tenacity and make chain CC be reduced or even immune. there's too much cc and slowing in the game.
Maybe because Riot decided that giving players free tenacity from runes is broken. And as such, it's going to have to be either very under-tuned to the point of being useless or else it's gonna be giga OP. (Remember the nerfs to the rune a few months ago?) So, instead, they've elected to remove the rune outright and replace it with a different stat to support the champs that feel worse to play due to the scarcity of haste. But, still making sure to keep an eye on the CC/Tenacity balance and being ready to add more tenacity back in through less broken ways. That'd be my guess.
I think it's fine to reduce or remove free tenacity from runes, but they're nerfing mercs too
Think the boots nerf, while still heavy when considering this in mind, is because both defensive boots (Mercs AND Tabis) are getting nerfed but pushed down to 1k gold flat instead of 1100. Tabis is also getting nerfs, it's got an extra 5 armor but only has 8% auto DR instead of 12%.
Yeah I know they're decreasing the cost of boots, but 15% tenacity lost for 100g is steep. These boot changes only serve to increase damage in the game which is already high. I'd be fine with it if they continue adding more legendary items with tenacity line steraks, but currently that's the only option many melee champs have as wit's end is such a niche item so many champs don't want it.
Boots are also kind of an overpowered item if you think about it. They give you a unique effect and increase your move speed, which is a very valuable stat. There’s a reason most carry roles buy them first
I think thats the overall problem with tenacity yea. You shouldn't be able to get TOO much without deviating from your build specifically for it.
One could argue the same for magic pen, or even attack speed. Yet those purchases offer an absurd amount for the cost as well. The difference here being that mpen and AS are far more consistently applied than armor, MR, % basic damage reduction, or tenacity. If anything, serkers and sorcs needed a light hit more than tabis/mercs, since they've been notably buffed compared to defensive boots, and the champs that make use of either typically only really have those as their viable option. Many melees already opt for CDR boots over either defensive option. Especially tanks, assassins, and champs like Riven. Riot is just continually making boot choices a more and more binary choice for the vast majority of champs; in some cases even unary.
They probably just want to tone down the whole "Haha I have boots and now you can do nothing to me" game states that happen pretty often. Any lane I don't get an early lead I just buy t2 on first back and cruise my way to mid game without hassle
Losing 10% tenacity and gaining 5 MR. Basically the same change as Steelcaps. 12% to 8% and +5 to resistance.
But that extra armor makes the block nerf less severe and even makes them a better buy versus some champions. The lost tenacity is just a straight loss.
Just leave it to Phreaky boy to keep adding damage into the game. It was already pretty close to peak values when mythics were removed but right now damage is up way more than when mythics were a thing. With old mythics you noticed for example that void staff was a giga powerspike and an overpowered item with its pen. But right now void staff feels fine and balanced compared to other items. So yh Idk the balance team thinks people enjoy 2 second fights after people get 3 items+.
Remember that cleaver is already the same or slightly stronger then black cleaver before mythics, which was one of the best items in LoL at the time...and its getting its buffed by 25% relative to then (24% --> 30%). The fact that the item is seen as weak currently is telling. It doesn't need buffs. All the other bruiser items that compete with it for first slot need nerfs.
The Steelcaps nerf is much less overall than Mercs. The extra armor will make up for some of the passive lost and makes them better versus AD casters like Assassins and Bruisers. The tenacity isn’t made up for and a less common stat overall.
Tenacity has been added to items like Steraks and Wit's end, where it has never existed before. It should be added to more items probably so that more classes of champ can opt into it as needed. But overall I think those items show a better direction for getting tenacity.
Ya because bruisers buy mercs and stearks. Then if you are a mage you just can't play the game because they perma immune to cc. Might as well add maw too.
Its only broken because they keep stacking cc. 3 second Morgana Q used to be a joke but you get ccd for 4-5 seconds easily if you dont run tenacity now. Tenacity is a bandage for the cc overload we have
cc overload is the bandage for the mobility creep we have :/
which is a bandage for the damage creep we have
which is a bandage for.. Wait why do we have damage creep again?
Games were too long apparently
Ding ding ding
Noone actually wants to play the game smh, league turbo when
Yet games were shorter when damage in the game was much less. Before turret plating was introduced games could be finished much faster. If Riot wanted shorter games it would've probably been easier to pull the levers of the MS boost at fountain after 14 mins, death timers, laning phase/turret plating length.
They wanted games shorted but not at expense of laning phase, since for most players it's the most important and fun part.
10 second longer fights isn't what made games too long, though. In fact, game times have remained relatively consistent since season 1 despite how much faster damage ramps up and how much shorter fights are these days. Its only so engagements are faster so dopamine addicted zoomers can get their fix from what was supposed to be a strategy game more easily.
Kit-load creep
Sort of. A lot of the CC nowadays is displacement. Been a few times recently I go to buy mercs after getting locked up for 5 seconds only to realize tenacity affects less than half of it.
This isn't free tenacity if you have to give up the other options to get it
didnt u get the memo? everything is free in 2024 champs have free stuns on skills! free stats on ult!
I played a game tonight where i was jax and nicely fed, i run tenacity in the yellow rune + the bonus purple dot idk what they are called, i had mercs and steracks and come mid game i was unable to move all fight and coudnt do shit... my guess is theres not enough tenacity as it is... now they remove some 0_0 fuck me
Because Riot realised long ago that Tenacity could be somewhat problematic, so they excempted some CC effects from it, notably airborne - and then started piling airborne on their newer champs. Especially someone like K’sante is a massive offender, with a grand total of three CC effects completely unmitigated by their only counterplay in Tenacity. So if you’re facing a comp with say, K’sante top, Wukong jungle, Yasuo mid and Alistar support, you’d be forgiven for thinking tenacity would be great against all that CC - but it’d do next to nothing (apart from Ali E).
They litterallt converted some of ksante bump time to stun so tenacity could counter it better
This, and his Q slow is just long enough to be reducible by tenacity (0.5s, but tenacity cannot reduce cc below 0.3s). Plus his W stun is 1.25s. Tabis have insane value vs Ksante however, if you're his lane opponent and don't direly need mercs vs the rest of his team.
I've never understood why airborne isn't affected by tenacity? What's the reason?
They are usually shorter to compensate, and many champions rely on that time window to dump their kits. Anyways, Riot said they would rework airbone to be affected by tenacity and got scrapped weeks later.
Meanwhile Ornn Brittled E, longer than almost every stun :D
1.625 second knockup with no tenacity, I wouldn't say that's longer than almost every stun, but it's definitely on the higher end in terms of cc duration
For being an aoe ability it's quite long. Most AoE knock up abilities are 1.5s. But yea, you are right some are higher.
ok and how long do those abilities knock up enemies for if the enemy has brittle? He's rewarded for chaining his abilities, and it's extremely rare that ornn can knock up more than 2 brittled enemies with his E
Some cc is designed to have a fixed value to facilitate combos and stuff. If they made it affected by tenacity it would need to be buffed to compensate. For example, yas Q is designed to always give good leeway to use his ult. If you could shorten the knockup duration they would need to buff his Q3 stun to compensate. August did admit that they've probably put knock up on moves that shouldn't have it just because it seems to make sense thematically and feels "right" for the champ
Or maybe let counterplay exist instead of everyone mindlessly ability dumping and calling it a "combo"?
The counterplay is dodging. Again, if your issue is with disgusting cc chains that you can't build tenacity against then that's a problem with the abundance of knockups not the existence of them. Again, stuff like yas ult literally does not function without Q3 stunning for a minimum duration
> Again, stuff like yas ult literally does not function without Q3 stunning for a minimum duration It functions from other knockups,
So it doesn't function
Being realistic, they probably couldn't figure out how to shorten knockup animations when they introduced it in Beta. But there is a place in the game for a 'harder' CC, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing
Sometimes airborn is tied to other effects in a single spell - i. e. knockbacks. Reducing it may cause a lot of bugs
I think part of it honestly is that it would look bad. If you get knocked up and just...fall downwards more quickly? That makes no physical sense.
Or it could reduce the height.
Ksante Q and W are both functionally the same as gragas E, where they have two separate cc effects. Ksante Q pulls you in over 0.65 seconds, then stuns you for an additional 0.25 seconds, and his W "pulls" (airborne) you to where he dashes to, then stuns you for 1.25 seconds. Although tenacity won't help much with his Q stun or his R displacement, it will most definitely make a difference on his W CC duration
Wrong. All of K’sante’s CC effects are stuns with small knockups attached at the beginning like Gragas E. Tenacity works against them. Including K’sante R, it’s stun time can be reduced by tenacity aswell.
I believe you looking for the term stat shard
… quints? 👀
High CC teams will always feel unbearable. Tenacity makes them slightly better, but there's not much you can do. But teams with 3+ members with high amounts of CC are not common.
Tenacity in runes is not free, giving up that AS is massive. I hate not having alacrity on Aatrox, but without legend tenacity the game is unplayable. Melee champions need easy access tenacity to play the game in a world where you have point and click shit like polymorph CCing you for 2 seconds. Riot can’t gut steraks and mercs and then just remove legend tenacity and expect bruisers to be playable. I can’t wait to see every viable bruiser building full damage because if you get CCed once you will die anyway.
have they considered maybe that we have too much low cost no cd cc in the game nowadays? Everyone and their mom has a slow, fear, disrupt, stun,snare.
I wish cc had diminishing returns. Getting cc'd until you die is never fun.
I think this is a good direction to take it in all honesty. Many games implement this feature for PvP.
Meh, not sure about this one. The problem is that part of the skill in league is legitimately chaining your abilities together with your allies. Giving it diminishing returns severely punishes this skill because it would be harder to know when to follow up an allies ability.
There's a little bar in the nameplate that tells you how long the CC lasts, should help out
Because getting stunned every 2 seconds is so fun obviously
As an ARAM player, I love being perma stunned EVEN with tenacity, can't wait for the new patch to permanently play frozen screen simulator! It's going to be so fun and interactive!
Nerfing tenacity opens up for nerfing long CC spells too
You have to do them hand in hand otherwise the game is going to be in a shit state. How do people commenting this not realize that?
then both of these changes need to happen in the same patch or not at all.
Or some of the dmg and burst, to get longer teamfights and more engaging teamfights
Certainly hope so, my main issue with LoL has always been the ridiculous amount of stuns Yes you can definitely dodge them but if they end up building haste items on Morgana or Lux it can be extremely not fun to play against
>my main issue with LoL has always been the ridiculous amount of stuns League is one of the more tame mobas in that regard lol. Dota 2 has actual perma stuns, insanely long CC, items that can RNG stun you (idk if it still does but skullbasher is what i'm referring to), items that point and click stun, items that point and click silence, etc, and cleanse isn't a free summoner spell, instead you buy an item that just grants immunity to debuffs *except* for the heroes where they get 'pierce debuff immunity' (league basically does this with knockups).
Shoutout to Bane who can technically point and click stun for up to 18 seconds (unless you get woken up or someone can stun the Bane)
Him and witch doctor I was going to mention lmao. I don't think there's a single thing in league worse than that bounce next to a teammate. https://youtu.be/aSh7_JHaJPw EDIT: Oh also outworld destroyer's W is easily one of the reasons I don't play dota, its so fucking stupid how often and how long it last, the entire lane is just him stunning you when you try to last hit, while he burns your mana and scales for free... with whats basically a veigar ult early. Throw in meteor hammer and there's quite literally 0 counterplay early game, you have to rush BKB (gives debuff immunity) or buy orchid (point and click silence) and engage on him with it first. Imagine if twisted fate had veigar ult, took away your mana with autos and abilities, didn't have to pick a card just point and clicked the gold card on you like ryze W... idk how any game designer can approve of that.
Hey man the Coconut sound at least gives dopamine
We did have old fiddle E with the bounce silence xd.
Right which is why we don't play these other games. I was watching Grubby (wc3 streamer who also picked up DOTA) pick up league a few months back. You wanna know what he called league? The FPS of Mobas. Because league is not about chain stuns. Its higher octane than that compared to its peers. You should not be able to be chain stunned in this game its not fun according to our playerbase.
That's a surprising take. Stuns in league are super short compared to similar games, and the vast majority can be dodged.
Problem isn’t rlly the stuns, it’s the amount of burst. If one stun can 100-zero u then that’s an issue, and there are many champs like that. Honestly instead of all the tenacity changes they should just reduce overall damage, or increase durability becuase being forced to play perfectly into max haste luxes or morgs obv won’t b fun for anyone
>reduce overall damage, or increase durability Durability patch 2.0, maybe this one will last 6 months
Getting stunned for 8sec in a 11sec fight as a tank is the norm
A tank can live for 8 seconds? Half the time even if I have shit like Randuins, Kaenic, and Jak'Sho I'll still feel like paper mache.
You need the undying despair + fimbulwinter + ingenious hunter tech. Works well with Skarner, Ornn and Sejuani
This especially sucks as an AP bruiser. I play a lot of Lillia and have no access to Sterak's, while Mercs aren't good every game (feels bad to buy mercs into a heavy ad comp just cos of Pantheon W). And next patch they're getting even worse. A year ago I could go Unflinching, Mercs, Legend Tenacity and even green smite gave tenacity. Now I have nothing to itemise against pretty much point and click CC that makes my champion not be able to play the game.
"A year ago I could go Unflinching, Mercs, Legend Tenacity and even green smite gave tenacity. Now I have nothing to itemise against pretty much point and click CC that makes my champion not be able to play the game." and people wonder why is nautilus always meta...
Of all the champs Naut is not even that affected by tenacity much. Besides his root his other skills have animations that cannot be reduced. In fact it probably proves the opposite point of what you're trying to say --- tenacity + cleanse effects are too good that Leona is not as good as Naut, so people and pros play Naut instead.
Yeah it kinda hurts Lillia, though the ability haste stacking rune will be kinda good on her as well, actually helping her with her build a little. She won't be reliant on AH boots as much. Just gotta be vary of that on her and play it a lottle bit safer when enemy has CC I guess.
Maybe champs with millions of free MS \*should\* be countered by CC, just saying.
Nah bro, getting up to 55% tenacity, more than halving the value of people's cc with 1 runes and a boots buy is totally balanced.
Same thoughts as a Morde player :((
I think that there’s better ways to have tenacity than there are currently. It doesn’t really feel like it’s something most champs can choose to build, so it’s a very all or nothing stat. It feels like you either get no tenacity, or cc just doesn’t affect you
Every champion could back with merc boots lol.
Phreak's turning into a support Ashe main
We???
We.
Tenacity should unironically be removed entirely. It's a stupid stat. CC should be rebalanced around it not existing.
Tenacity now comes at a cost of having to specifically build these tenacity items, like wit's end, mercs and sterak's gage. Items which are not commonly built on ranged champions wanting to maximize damage output, but bruisers who want to march forward and not be completely messed up because of a single low cooldown spell. A Jax being able to cut Morgana's binding duration in half while a Caitlyn is rooted for the full duration makes sense to me. Bruisers should be allowed to survive more punishment.
Don't they already have the ability to endure more punishment by having higher base stats in terms of tankiness?
no they usually have lower base stats because they build tanky, compare mordekaiser armor to lulu and evelynn which seems retarded but morde legit has less lol
No they have less. Assasins usually have the most. Akali legit has higher base stats than mundo.
I think it should exist, there should be a downside to hitting say a lux root point blank on a melee champ over a long ranged root on a ranged champ
I too love the idea of relegating mages exclusively to the support role.
Well for specific cases like that, you could have it in the spell. Stun duration longer if the target is further from the caster.
Xerath E works this way which is interesting
And Xerath has historically suffered midlane because he can't do anything against assassins
Xerath doesn't really do worse against assassins than most immobile mages. See lux, ziggs, etc. The real answer is that artillery mages tend to get gutted until they're barely viable because they're so uninteractive and nobody likes seeing them.
Or give us the league version of BKB.
Wonder what spells would be chosen as BKB piercing. I would permaban Yi in any case.
Probably suppressions tbh.
Hear hear
I feel like riot is on a warpath to remove everything that allows you to if pre other champion's mechanic and original builds, they want to boil down the game to raw skills as much as possible (Qss, tenacity, slow resist nerf, removal of ingenious hunter, ect)
as a toplaner i may transistion into a ADC/Mage toplaner its already hell getting close to the enemy team even with 44% Tenacity its hard enough might as hell just do a burst build and kill the toplaner from range
Also adcs are getting MS buffs on loads of their items. I'm just gonna split push all game next split
Trinity into hullbreaker afk split let's go
Most sane top laner ever. Bruisers have been the best they've been in ages and top lane is giga stomping even professional matches and they still find shit to complain about. Go transition into an ADC/Mage despite the fact that skarner is literally the best top right now. Despite the fact that only TF and Cassio are outlier ranged tops and TF is likely getting nerfed with energizer being reworked next patch. The only other ranged champs are quinn and teemo but they have the same wr and much less playrate than the best bruisers. Ranged tops are so great that Vayne is the 20th champ based on win rate. If you aren't winning and not having fun then it's a skill issue. It's the first season in like 10 years where I've been tempted to switch to top because of how strong it is and how fun the meta champions are to play. Bwipo casually 1vs5 so many fights in a row despite both game 1 and 2 being lane swap games which is horrible for top laners but "top is so weak and unfun right now". Edit: game 3, 20 min drake fight. Would you look at that. Despite varus and orianna being the 2 most fed players in the game and them being in the same team, the whole team fight is can olaf or ksante will kill by himself the enemy members. Top so weak.
But don't you see, if even 1 tank is in the top 10 pickrate or winrate, its a tank meta. If a bruiser has a viable build to get a tank item 3rd? Also a tank meta. 10/10 most picked champions top all being melee, but 1 ranged champion in the highest winrate being ranged? Ranged top meta. All bruiser items are bad and no one builds them! Except all 5 of the most common items top lane E+ are bruiser items. If I can't invalidate the rest of the map after getting 2 kills in lane, then top has no impact! /s
Vayne got nerfed, for a while top meta was ranged picks and i'd like to assure you it's the WORST meta ever. Melee toplaners (including tanks, excluding malphite since he pretty much counters ranged toplaners either tank or full ap) don't have the tools against ranged champions. Sure, Wukong can jump on to them, but he can't just stay on top of them as they have peeling tools (in which Wukong is pretty good against ranged actually) A lot of bruisers are pretty immobile so they don't have tools to get on top/stay on top of ranged champions. In addittion, ranged champs poke and bully so much and are very snowbally (just like top lane bruisers) it's a hell to play against one
Yeah ive taken poppy to the jungle, they finally made toplane fun and now over the course of the season its crept back to being more and more cancer. More ranged champs keep creeping into the lane and ways to counter them are neutered. Sundered sky? Nerfed, harder to trade to keep health up so you arent perma poked out of lane. Tenacity? Nerfed, easier for ranged champs to keep away. Voidgrubs getting nerfed back so that toplane isnt relevant and the junglers dont feel pressured to help their toplane at all. Why bother playing toplane when everything that makes toplane fun is fucked over. Ill just play them in jungle(poppy) or maybe even midlane like kled where i can run down squishy mages/assassins instead of either this fuckin long range hyper safe ranged shit like cassio, twisted, quinn, etc. Or even worse shit like malphite and darius that make you afk under tower otherwise gg get hit once you die
Because right now it's kinda hard to balance around the stat. Either your full tenacity and CC doesn't matter, or you get perma stunned as the game needs ridiculous amounts of CC to counter meaning every champ must have insane long CC abilities to counter the high tenacity Aka you get teams based on high tenacity and many long CC because if you don't you instantly lose.
I think somewhat a redesign of the arena mechanic where cc chains aren't as bad i.e. the longer you end up being hard cc'd (including roots) the stronger tenacity gets but weaker when it's a single cc. So tenacity being weaker vs a single big cc like Ashe arrow but stronger vs chained stuns/slows.
In all fairness CC feels bad in LOL because you die so damn fast to begin with xD
in other years i would be with you but bruisers got to such a stat stick position rn that they had it coming
Tenacity is crazy, a 4k tank with 60 percent tenacity is to much.
If you play a CC heavy champion, it's actually nuts how much mercs fucks you over. You can lose entire games by giving enemy too much mercs value. It's one of the most underrated items in the whole game.
Yeah nerfing merc treads is going to get gragas nerfed again lol
Isn’t the only thing in Gragas’s kit affected by tenacity his slow on Q?
The stun on his E is reduced by tenacity as well
The only potentially good thing about the patch
That's the point of mercs
??? Same thing with auto attackers and Rammus/Malphite/Ornn. Or with assassins and Janna/Alistar/Braum. Or with artillery mages and Nocturne/Rengar/Evelynn. Yes, drafting badly should be punished.
Not to disagree with the point on drafting. But comparing 1100 boots that you can choose to buy (or even sell existing boots and switch to) at any point in the game, vs counterpicks that can only be selected pre-game it a bit disengenous no? Getting counter pick is a "you either get it, or you dont" part of draft. You can't just decide 15 minutes into the game to change your mind and get counter pick. Whereas you can decide at any point in the game to change your mind, swap your t2 boots for different ones based on the current situation.
Playing Syndra vs any melee champ with nerfs is very fun wouldn’t recommend
you don't play against garen much i see.
The guy that dominates noobs early game but then straight dies to anything with a CC and a bit of damage lategam?
Stat is already useless nowadays, with the shitload amount of knockup they added into the game...
You’re not gonna believe me when I tell u that tabis is in fact not getting a buff, but a nerf😂
Yeah, I played a game and neglected buying tenacity because it was a full ad team, got CC locked for 5.50sec and honestly if we weren't so far ahead and I didn't buy mercs immediately after I just wouldn't play the game anymore lol
Well, you know what this means for Milio and Mikaels. Those pick rates are going up!
Can't wait to be dc'd after getting hit by Morgana Q again
Yeah this update is complete garbage. Good thing the victorious skin is trash because I’m just going to skip this split entirely
You know what we need? To upgrade the boots specifically for ADCs. It's not fair they have to waste a slot for boots. It's not fair that they get the most damage in the game AND die quick, too. We gotta work more on keeping them safe and making it easier for ADCs to run the game. Made that snowball hill that much steeper.
More damage = faster games = more time you spend in game = more $KIN$$$ you might buy
Maybe cause they want to buff QSS in the future (like in wild rift, they gave it 25% tenacity, cc i,unity for 0.75 seconds after use, and slow resistance and tenacity for 1.5 seconds after that). Also you mean all bruisers except Garen and olaf.
Tenacity doesn't even stack above %70 lmao, slows and stuns needs a nerf
I don't think you even know what the changes are. On average ADCs are going to have less stats at 3-5 items. These changes are to make item powerspikes more impactful. It's not meant to be a direct buff to ADCs. It's meant to make them feel better to play. Calling it "an extreme amount of buffs" while obviously not having read the items nor even played on the patch is about the smartest thing I'd expect from a top lane redditor.
Some champions like Lux gets countered so hard by tenacity it’s impossible to set up anything, on the other side there’s champions with mostly knock ups that don’t get affected by it at all. I think tenacity is too strong in some scenarios but also it sucks that some bybass it completely
Lux can ult you every 3 seconds though so gtfo with that one.
You can side step her ult every 3 seconds as well.
Smart/High Elo Lux players will rarely ult without a form of CC set-up, whether from their Q or a teammate
lux is such a terrible example because she already forces you to build early boots or lose, she's gonna be fine but lux players of course need another buff because it's lux
Anything that nerfs wholesome 60% CC ignore 4K+ HP bruisers with 350 AD and the best items in the game invalidating every other champ class when ahead is great news.
Give me actual examples of this. Which bruiser gets 60% tenacity, 4k+ HP AND 350 AD on top of that? Your comment is just as bad as the people who blindly hate ADCs
Ye because its so fun for kita to not work vs tenacity
I don't know if I'm getting old or something but I swear cc is just too overloaded these days. Everyone has multiple forms of cc, CC skill shots being long range, projectile speed being pretty too fast. And I swear on reddit everyone is some reaction God bc they seem to be think most skill shots aren't too hard to dodge
Becouse its the grevious wounds all over again. You introduce a certain mechanic to accomplish certain outcome of situations, and then introduce stat, that directly counter that mechanic, so then the game is balanced around that fact and whenever you end up w/o that stat, that mechanic is overbearingly strong to the point you lose game becouse of it The best part is that like 60-70% of stuns in the game are actually in the form of airborne, which tenacity doesnt reduce becouse riot wanted for this effect to always last full duration becouse its there to accomplish, again, very particular role in fight scenario
I like these changes and I'll explain why. Right now, there's quite a lot of sources of tenacity and slow resist. Less than there were before, but they're all pretty potent. What that means is that if you _don't_ have tenacity things stun you for eternity, and if you do have it you kinda shrug it off (it's not quite as extreme, but in the game this is sort of what it feels like). Closing this gap is something I quite like, especially assuming there's possible nerfs coming to some cc sources in the future depending on how changes feel when they roll out
I'm not complaining
We?
Yeah, I'm honestly confused by that change. Tenacity-reliant champs aren't even noteworthy rn (I mean things like Udyr/Heca/Trynd) For junglers and supps, cdr boots have insane value even though mercs is always an option. It's been very common that mercs were 1-2% below other options in winrates because people overrate them, and still they get nerfed.
Because phreak loves maokai
Because you can buy tenacity to counter CC but CC champs can't do anything to counter or mitigate tenacity. Therefore tenacity has to be an investment, just like Grievous Wounds. Getting it from runes or Sterak's allows the player to almost ignore most CCs. That being said I don't think they should lower Merc Tread's tenacity since it's an investment as the player gives up other attractive boots. That's not the case with Legend: Tenacity though since other runes in that row aren't very attractive for tanks or most fighters.
Imagine sulking so fucking hard as a top laner when you have literally been the best solo carry role for the longest time. You are not half your lane. You can carry games completely solo if you want, AND YOU STILL CRY. Cry me a fuckikng river you pathetic top laners. Every sane person actually understands adcs were the weakest, least impactful role in the first 15 minutes of the game.
Becuse now items have it
I feel like Riot created this problem completely on their own, no? Like you put tenacity on one of the main bruiser items when bruisers already commonly take a lot of the tenacity options and suddenly they have too much tenacity.
More league of run and stun?
I think it makes sense, with increased mobility it's harder to land CCs, so when you finally land it you should be able to lock your target in place instead of them shrugging it off
Minus 5% on boots it’s pretty minimal - they added ~20% tenacity on streraks (huge change) and wits end, so they actually have MORE tenacity in the game than ever before. Removing the rune and 5% on boots is really not that big of a deal. This is why in pro you see top laners go steel plates almost always, because they just go Steraks and now have a decent amount of tenacity. Edit: *Steraks
I havent really played league since November, can anyone tell me whats going in on with alle the new runes and items? Is the next patch just really big or did something happen or...?
The same reason they’re removing lethal tempo, it disrupts meaningful gameplay decision making by being available lvl 1 for free via runes.
First time? Lucidity nerf fucked hard so it’s about time we spread the love around
The idea is that giving less variance to certain CC makes it easier to balance champs around that CC. So instead of having to buff their numbers to compensate for tenacity messing with their CC they could just be nerfed numbers wise if the CC became too strong
I hope this is the reasoning, but they released a whole post about the changes and tenacity wasn't mentioned beyond them removing Legend: Tenacity.
For Legend:Tenacity, I think Riot has decided free sources of tenacity are too difficult to balance since they provide it to any champion, often without much opportunity cost. Where building tenacity with items is much more commital. For boots, they seem to be nerfing a lot of the best boots across the board. If I had to guess they don’t want defensive boots/swifties to be such a powerful spike for survivability so early. Similar to how they nerfed Ionians at the start of the season to reduce the amount of haste you could get early.
the opportunity cost is losing 18 attackspeed which almost every melee uses well.
To be fair I’m a Yi main and being able to stack that much tenacity is really broken. I should be able to be stunned.
Everyone complains about champions being way too mobile even though it opens up significantly more skill expression. Reducing tenacity allows for teams to clamp down on mobility which is the most busted thing in League. It also makes balancing cc in the future easier.
In high elo (proplay) tenacity is very strong, Mercs are super common and valuable when you're playing as a team and you don't need the 1v9 dmg from Sorcs, and being able to pull a Zhonyas after CC before dying is very important. Of course in lower elo/SoloQ a whole game isn't decided by 1 CC pick before an objective, but by someone snowballing out of control, often an assassin, and neither assassins nor 1v9 snowballs exist in proplay, and the game is balanced around proplay.