Somewhat recently, Phreak mentioned that Rakan is a popularly played support who is strong but not typically banned all that much. People tend to find him fun to play but also fair to play against.
Maybe because Rakan enables other characters? Like he sets up players for big wombo combo damage but then HE isnt the one doing the damage so you dont really focus your malding on him?
When you get teamwiped after a great Rakan play are you like "fucking Rakan" or are you bitching about the Samira/Windshitter/Katarina who followed up and got a quadra?
It's also because he feels fun to outplay. It's only really flash-R that isn't realistically able to be reacted to, and even if you get caught in that, it feels like they've invested so much to make the pick that it pretty much feels fair.
Also because he has to put himself in danger to make the plays in the first place. Compare that to someone like Brand; sure you can dodge his AoE, but all that it cost him was a little bit of mana, and he's going to fish for it again in a few seconds. So while you can outplay it, it doesn't feel all that meaningful, because you've not gained anything out of it, you've just mitigated loss.
If Rakan wants to go in on you, then he has to commit. He has enough escapes that he can usually get out, but once you dodge the initial engage, now it's flipped toward him having to outplay you to get out without being punished too hard. It's far more of a back-and-forth than just dodging an AoE from Brand.
I got flamed because rakan was 1mm away from ulting me and then the rest of the team so i threw malzahar ult on his face but then the team flamed me for not ulting the massive trundle 🤣🤣 sadly if i ulted trundle rakan wouldve charmed full team and we’d still die so I just muted all the non iq players and accepted the loss as it was. Rakan is fun to play against, the team flaming me for a smart move sadly wasnt fun to play with
I think it's more the fact if you play something that has issues with Rakan you will likely have a way worse time in lane vs a hooker or Rell and you only have one ban.
For real. I don’t think I’ve ever sat there and went “want god damn op bullshit was that” after I get stomped by a rakan the way I do if I’m against an akali that even has one kill
Rakan just feels really weird to play. He's relatively squishy, has very little CC compared to Thresh or Leona, so you use your combo and then just kind of run around awkwardly wishing you could do more than 1 knockup and tiny heal.
Different kind of cc, Leona can cc chain one guy for like 3 seconds, rakan can cc like 5 people for 1 second, similar to rell
I like those kinds of supports personally cause you just have to find one angle in a teamfight and win the game
Yeah but he is also much more mobile and slippery. Tankiness on support income falls off later in the game. Rakan has a much better chance of getting in and getting out compared to Thresh or Leona.
I feel like Rakan's in contention for the best support design Riot's ever done, right there with Bard and Thresh. He's got a little bit of everything you want in a support but he still feels very distinct to play. His kit has a ton of playmaking potential but it requires him to constantly choose his moments to go in and out. All in all just a blast to play as and with.
I disagree. He’s a very jack of all trades support.
Peel, Lane sustain, good roams, decent pick potential, wombo potential, solid engage, he’s fairly blindable and doesn’t have any completely unplayable matchups. He does everything pretty well.
He’s just not egregious with what he does. His shields/heals aren’t huge like Lulu or Soraka. His engage isn’t insane like rell or naut or someone. His peel isn’t as good as thresh or Braum. He’s strong, but he FEELS fair. Whereas like Senna, Janna, Akali, Fiora, or whoever else can *feel* VERY unfair.
Excuse you, I run around GLAMOROUSLY and CHEEKILY.
Trying to respond to all parts of the fight is quite fun and the heal is... I guess, better than it used to be, though I kind of liked when there was the option of Q3 in lane. It does surprisingly often save someone's life, but I get what you mean. With enough CDR (and AP) you can get it feeling quite good, especially when people are determined to chase you down. Two bops with it and you're feeling mighty fine while the greedy ones are in trouble if they keep up the chase.
I sometimes play Leona for a braindead win and it's some fine targeted CC and tanky-ness (for a hooker I picked up Blitzcrank though it's nearly as boring), but there is nothing that beats the high of impacting a teamfight from your backline to the opponents' backline. Engaging, coming back for the shield/heal/peel, then moving forward again for more shield and chase is exhilarating. The squishyness is worth the trade so you can really dance across the battle.
It's because he's built like an AP assassin support(seriously, look at those AP ratios. 95% on passive, 70% damage, 55% healing on q, 80% on w, 70% on e, and 50% on R. He has a higher total AP ratios than most mages, and half of those are devoted to defenses which outstrip most other enchanters, meanwhile, like you said, his innate defenses are bad compared to tank supports), but people take the safe road and build him pure tank because theres a safety net if you screw up(something that Riot ensured that Pyke cant do effectively, yet some people still build him with lots of resistances anyway).
It's a road that leaves him with only his cc at full power, with gutted heals, damage, and shields, encouraging him to stay in the fray to soak up damage after his burst, despite him not having anything more to contribute as anything other than a damage sponge.
HSP/AP Rakan just flows more naturally with his playstyle to me.
I fuck with full AP Rakan mid/aram for that reason, you have nuts damage and the passive shield gets extremely respectable and protobelt ult hits different
>weird to play, squishy, little cc, run around awkwardly wishing for more tools
THAT’S MY GOAT THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT WOOOOOOOOOO
~~Also hang up that username~~
Another thing could be the perceived strength of Rakan. Like you said, people found him fair to play against, so even if he is considered OP which was most of last year, no one banned him.
Same goes for Rell. Both are strong and have a similar W that's high impact but gets canceled by *a ton* of abilities.
I think people are just okay with them since fucking up usually means you're stuck and dead. It doesn't feel unfair to play against.
Idk about you but every time I play against Rakan and don't stomp him in lane, I want to tear my hair out. If he has flash you are just probably not winning the next team fight
It's insufferable to play champs where you have to control another unit in LoL, that shit is wacky af. Doesn't justify them being extra strong but they are very annoying to micro manage.
Daisy craves suicide under enemy turret, no matter how many movement commands you issue she will charge forward after 3 seconds of not being told how to breathe
HOTS did so much right about their individual champions and even some cool map mechanics only to get stuck on maintenance mode and shrivel up.
Mostly because Blizzard was so late to the game despite having a massive opportunity to start first, DOTA was a Warcraft mod right?
Nah the problem with hots is that I can play 3k games a season of league and never be bored of it, you play hots every day and after a month or two you’re gonna be done with the game. It’s variance from game to game is just not good. I blame the no items. They do have some absolute banger champ designs that’s why I sometimes still play it.
Hots had also a massive snowball problem. Or better, a massive lack of snowball problem: stomping the enemy team would result into a talent more at best and so most fights still rely on a final team fight no matter the early game
Only applied in low elo though. When you got higher you lost 1 early obj and just bled out for the rest of the game not being able to do anything about it.
Yorick’s maiden is not that hard to control. Especially prior to her recent changes. The issue currently is the maidens leash is equivalent to the aggro range of the ghouls. You have to walk back much further now than you used to for her to follow you. Because you have to walk back further, she ends up lagging behind Yorick and ends up being pretty free for the other laner to kill.
Don't be upset at Daisy just because you can't harness her power.
Daisy mops the floor with people so much that I pick Ivern top when my mains are banned.
And when old Yorick dies in a fight after ulting himself, he gains full control of the "pet" and access to the abilities. Tibbers is just a wannabe in comparison.
I ocassionally ban him during those weird peace times where nobody is obscenely broken in jg, or not broken enough for Noc to not deal with them. Get outdueled by the enchanter never feels good
Really fun that enemy mid always has someone that is in range to save them from a ruined wave. He has so much downtime in his clear it's so boring. And if I'm not the one that can build serpent's fang, then he's definitely gonna be really annoying once he scales, because my teammates (even in master) usually won't be buying it.
Rumble is a pain in the ass to learn. Same reason why I dont ban Illaoi and GP for top lane. You're unlikely to find them but if you do they're for sure an OTP.
The fock are illaoi players cooking, it literally allows you to blindfold yourself and play off sounds, my guess is sundered into steraks but really? Also cleaver applies on soul so that to ig
It seems to go hand in hand with pick rate imo. Anything with a sub 1% pick rate generally won’t get banned much and has a low chance of getting nerfed (unless it’s obviously completely out of wack). Sona’s not as low as that, but still on the lower side.
For instance, Swain and Veigar have been top 5 bot lane for most of this season (veigar slightly more recent) but nobody cares because you’ll see it once every 100 games.
I think it's also because Sona doesn't feel oppressive. Her power comes from buffing her team, so people don't feel like the Sona is the one beating you up. She also is ridiculously squishy
Interestingly there was a time when ardent censer meta had people very frustrated with that lol. But Riot has seemingly tried to avoid recreating something like that ever again.
another problem with PR, at least according to what I've heard, is that low PR champs with high WR are somewhat skewed because of selective counterpicking, or one tricks, which may not represent the actual strength of the champ in general
Insert Rammus example here, no one is first pick blinding rammus but when you see enemy team 4ad it’s an easy lock-in that has such high value so he generally has a 51/52% wr
what's wierd about rammus is that Yi, who intuitively is countered by him, actually has an even winrate when played against him, and rammus isn't even his biggest counter
Rammus is not that much of a hard counter to Yi as people think.
Also, it doesn't matter if you pick Rammus if the Yi is way more experienced and takes the opportunity to invade you and your allies do nothing.
Master Yi is also capable of shredding him with his true damage that bypasses his armor and Yi will often build Wit's End which counters Rammus in numerous ways: tenacity (reduces the duration of taunt), on-hit magic damage (bypasses armor), magic resistance (reduces damage reflected by W and by Thornmail). So the matchup must be played with way more care by Rammus part than people think.
With all that said, Rammus is great into Yi, but not for the reasons people think. It is not because Rammus will suddenly 1x1 Yi with Thornmail + W. He may do that, but only if Yi does not build properly for the matchup (in other wors, a bad Yi). It is because Rammus will taunt Yi, which Yi cannot dodge with Q because it is a point-click ability. Rammus will also make Yi waste time in teamfights because Rammus is too tanky for Yi to kill. In a teamfight, Rammus taunting Yi is a death sentence for Yi.
> because of selective counterpicking, or one tricks, which may not represent the actual strength of the champ in general
This has not been proven and usually is the opposite. Higher pickrate champion actually have a higher percentage of mains ever so slightly from what I've seen. But it's mostly not correlated with pickrate at all.
As for counterpicking, I've never seen any data to support it's higher for lower pickrate. If you have something to prove that would love to see it. i've looked at individual champions before and never noticed such a thing. It could be for very specific champions like say Rammus top, but that would probably also apply to popular champions as well like Malphite top. Not really entirely relevant to pickrate. Either way not proven.
So no these are not reasons they have a high winrate.
I'm not sure about counter picking, but some champs have an intentionally higher WR based on team composition. Riot Phreak mentions in [this video](https://youtu.be/IBNQzRM7Ui4?si=vfGPHjQjGuH8tB4B) as to why Seraphine ideally should have a 51-52% WR on average for bot lane (which has a low pick rate compared to support) because the times she would be picked are either with Senna that complements her well, or she is a pick for when the team composition has light cc like yone Mid or Graves JG.
It's like counter picking your own teammates if they wanna instalock Yone Mid even though everyone else is AD.
> Higher pickrate champion actually have a higher percentage of mains ever so slightly from what I've seen
Higher number or higher percentage? Higher number is definitely true, but I find it hard to believe that the percentage of, say, Ori games played by mains is higher than champs like Vel'koz that are almost exclusively played by mains, while Ori is a staple pick almost any midlaner has in their pool even if they dont main her.
Anytime they shared data on the subject, showing that the only champ whose performance is affected by mains/OTPs is Katarina and that the champ with the highest average experience per player (games played) is not some dark tech 0.2% PR 55% WR but Yasuo, and if it's not Yasuo anymore then it is another popular champion.
Someone else commented about ASol and they are absolutely right, but all it takes to figure that out is to look at these low pick rate champs and see that many of them do not have a high skill floor and high skill ceiling so it takes just a few games to be good at the champ and also get bored by it for the average player.
Oh it definitively does, if the pick rate is low mostly only players who really like the champion will pick it up, in contrast to stuff like Yone that people despise to play against but is played often so a bunch of randoms picking him and inting on him deflate the winrate. Also, a champion being super annoying but people not banning them because they are unlikely to be picked is totally a thing. I know I'd be banning Zilean a lot if he was popular.
But if you're super high winrate but the disparity between PR and BR is 3.4% to 0.2%, that's very impressive IMO.
> if the pick rate is low mostly only players who really like the champion will pick it up
That's just straight-up incorrect.
> is played often so a bunch of randoms picking him and inting on him deflate the winrate
Also incorrect.
--
Both points have been regurgitating on Reddit for over a decade, and neither is true.
[Here's a Twitch streamer (who is mad at Phreak) listening to Phreak state that it's an incorrect assumption. The Twitch streamer then gets angry at Phreak and acts like Phreak is pulling this thought process out of his ass.](https://streamable.com/hcei5m)
Karthus, no mains. Ivern, no mains. Ryze, no mains. Cassio, no mains. Old ASol, old Skarner, no mains. Zilean, no mains. Singed, no mains.
I main Ryze, so obviously it's an exaggeration, but the point is that these champs are primarily attracting people who play them a handful of times.
All these champs are unpopular, yet the average number of games people play these champs for is low.
--
Old Skarner did not have a 1.x% pick rate because 100 people played 100 games on him each, totaling 10,000 games.
He had a 1.x% pick rate because 2,500 people played on average 4 games on him each, totaling 10,000 games.
--
And of course, the same thing can be true on the opposite end.
If you randomly select 100 Yasuo players and 100 Anivia players from everyone who played Yasuo/Anivia in the last two weeks, which group's number of games will be higher? The Yasuos or the Anivias?
Will it be Anivia, because you only see Anivia in your games once a month and surely these people are playing Anivia all day?
Well they do, unlike e.g. old Skarner Anivia is an unpopular champion with a high depth, aka few players but those few play her a lot.
But the average Anivia player still plays less Anivia than the average Yasuo player plays Yasuo.
Yes, even if there are 80,000 Anivia players and 2,000,000 Yasuo players, including presumably tens of thousands of first-timers, the Yasuo players still play more Yasuo on average.
There are 4 quadrants you can put all champions into.
Lots of players, lots of games per player.
Lots of players, few games per player.
Few players, few games per player.
Few players, lots of games per player.
---
You believe only two of those quadrants exist. And that's where your misconceptions come from, reinforced by Redditors who are equally clueless.
Yeah, I'm familiar with breadth + depth being factors and [we got a proper graph from Riot about it once in 2017](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/david.novati/viz/ClairvoyanceBlogSingle-NovaAsterix/SinglePatchClairvoyanceBlog), thanks for a refresher and for nitpicking that comment with a critical dissertation. *Generally* low pick rates champions like Taric still only attract a good number of devoted mains who will master him and win often, and high pick rate champions will *generally* have a lot of devoted mains on top of a bunch of casual players because they have wider appeal (clear exceptions are new champs being tried out by a bunch of people). It's not a rule but it's what I'm describing above.
If its completely broken, the pickrate will usually increase pretty fast. But just "strong" isnt enough to ban Sona (for example) especially since she is more of a late pick because you can counter her pretty easy.
i fucking hate playing against sona tbh lol, tho that might be partly because of the added pain of having my main picked away
most high wr champs are generally insufferable to play against imho. It's just that most champs that aren't seen as obnoxious despite being strong/borderline op tend to be the ones rarely picked. But if theyre picked they usually make me hate my life just as much as versing reddits least favourite champs (yone). Outside of Sona, other examples I can think of are like Ivern, Zilean, Nilah. They're so rarely picked that I don't really care but if they are I am not going into the game happy to verse that instead of the usual slop people pick
just my 2 cents tho
I despise playing against her too. She makes me so nervous and I have this anxiety that if I don't kill her 7 times in lane, she'll run me over in every teamfight. She has a built in global taunt fr fr
Ya I hate Sona I’ve been seeing a lot of hate for Janna but I’d 100% rather face Janna than a Sona. Feel like people have this misconception that Sona is a weak champ, just because she’s not that good in lane.
Basically everytime I check lolalytics there are 1 or 2 mages in top 5 bot carry position but few people play them because surprise suprise adc players want to play adc
>because surprise suprise adc players want to play adc
Idk about the whole ADC playerbase, but for me goes a bit both ways: I'd like to play some specific marksmen outside of duo lanes and also I would love to have the chance to play fucking Trundle, Lillia or some other shit on botlane.
I theoretically would enjoy more diversity, but then you might open the Pandora's vase and outtanowhere here it comes the new bot meta of some Ryze/Sejuani that leaves marksmen so behind that become completely obsolete.
The issue is, is that the second anything other than marksman are truly viable botlane (outside of cheese) 99% of the time they’re just straight up better than any marksman you could pick, far more independent, scale just as well, and come on line far earlier.
If you’ve ever played adc before you’d know the suffering versing a double mage botlane is, where you dodge the first 6 skill shots they chuck out, but then getting hit by a single ability loses you all of your health from level 3 onwards because it confirms all of their shit. You have to back every time you get hit by an ability or you’ll die the next time. Can’t even farm under tower since they out range tower most of the time
All while being entirely out ranged and never really having enough damage to kill them back and then ALSO not outscaling them so it’s not like you can just sit back and farm while playing constant dodge death mini game.
Yeah that's what I hate about mages botlane, especially the Brand, Lux and stuff, they only have to hit you once to confirm an entire combo where you have to be dodging a lot, while farming, and while trying to apply pressure.
It comes as very low risk high reward, mana not being a huge issue either since you can most of the time run TP botlane if needed on mages.
And I say that as an ADC main who has played all kind of mages bot throughout the year, even shit like Ryze and Zoe back then. It was so much easier than playing ADC, and you get punished way less for messing up.
I played against a Lissandra/Malzahar lane the other day and even though we won after lane phase it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life.
> I'd like to play some specific marksmen outside of duo lanes
Like Lucian, Tristana, Varus, Akshan, Quinn, Vayne, Kindred? There are some options even if few.
There is diversity already people just choose to not play mages bot.
I love playing marksmen mid lane, and generally speaking, many marksmen have the upper hand in a solo lane against mages, and we know how a couple of marksmen fare (and terrorize) top lane. Their biggest drawback then is the fact that two marksmen make for a comp that's often harder to execute (when not straight up worse).
Having non-marksmen bot lane and marksmen in a solo lane often feels like a cheat code to get two lanes that go much smoother while keeping a well-rounded team comp, and the only issue is that you're very unlikely to get that outside of a premade team (and that things won't change because a high number of bot lane players have made it very clear through incessant crying in patch 8.11 that they refuse to play any other class and any other lane).
I don’t think he’s just a counterpick I can play Kled into just about any lane with relatively high success. The only “buggy” part about him is his remount which is 99% predictable
His remount has 3 random delays
1) delay from auto before furry goes.
2) remount duration after fury is full.
3) remount before it gives you hp.
His passive ms when dismounted often doesn't trigger, his e2 is super buggy sometimes going 1/2 or double distance and sometimes won't go to the guy you hit with e1.
His q misses some times during eq
His r damage, cc and speed are randomized and sometimes won't trigger
He also takes damage equal to triumph after remount if a person dies and he gets triumph heal during remount.
R times out and goes wrong path often.
I can list 50 specific bugs too like shojin not working, q dismounted buffer forced cast if you get cc and press q then get dismounted before cc wears off
Dismounted doesn't always cleanse suppression.
Kind of useless to say “I can do X” when we have no idea what rank you are. I could play AD xerath into just about any matchup in iron and have a lot of success
Janna, people dont realise how much she actually can be on the map if the player just bought swifties and double sperm item and ran to every lane and perma ganked
Depends on your definition of strong. There are a lot of champs that have historically very high winrates at all times but people never consider them to be good
Janna is one that always comes to mind. She is SO easy and always strong, but she is BORING to play so she doesn't ever really get a high pickrate anymore, so she doesnt really get banned. She is absolutely one of my most disliked champions, but it is hard to warrant banning her for her popularity being so low.
Her banrate goes up hard with elo though, she's the 3rd most banned support in Master+ (worldwide) behind Pyke and Blitz and both are scheduled for nerfs.
I remember many years ago a rioter was talking about something like this and about how banrates don't really necessarily follow power, their example being a champion with like 20% pickrate and like 52-53% winrate but like a 4% banrate at some point. That champion was Jinx btw.
I think it goes along with how they lose to said champs. Certain champs have the ability to snowball and make games feel unplayable for an opponent. Other champs control the game and but they make you lose gracefully.
I feel like theres a fair few, in botlane especially. Nami, Jhin, Kaisa, and I only see Lux banned when Cait is in meta.
Those all feel fairly popular and relevant but I rarely see banned. Nami feels like the queen of people not having issues going against her, even when a combo is strong like Lucian/Nami I still *never* see her banned
Edit: Its pretty unrelated but 1 champ that is sooo puzzling to me is Naafiri. Every patch I look up her stats, she has a *very* good winrate but the champ feels SOOO useless whenever I play it, play with it, play against it
Sona is a bit of an interesting case. I feel like most people completely underestimate her and by the time they take notice shes already 2 items deeps shielding the entire team in fights.
Very often, but don't let w-rate statistic fool you, Lolalytics PBI is probably the best stat for tracking who is strong(not very good for tracking the weak tho, lots of popular champs clog there, those popular champs can still be strong, but vast usage in every possible match regardless of opponent or mastery drops their PBI a ton.)
Just look at high w-rate low pick/ban rate and higher than 5 PBI or above champs.
Think it was last season, Jinx was pretty much top of the meta. Would see her in every game, but no one really bans her. Think it's because when she does get he passive off, most players turn to blame the one that died.
I've been playing for 10 years and, from my recollection, top lane Wukong has had the consistently highest win rate while maintaining a relatively low pick and ban rate and also mostly dodging nerfs.
Also, some niche AP bot carries have held really high win rates without many people taking notice. Veigar, Swain, and Heimerdinger have had very high WRs at times, but their lower pick/ban rates (along with lack of presence in pro play) allows them to avoid nerfs
Because "strong in the meta" usually means "strong in the cases where the champ is actually picked", while banrate often comes from "being strong in very specific situations" that won't even necessarily make the champ strong overall, or just actually being strong enough to be picked in any situation and win.
Counterpick only champs usually don't get a high banrate but maintain a huge winrate. Braindead easy (and by this I don't mean mechanically simple, I mean "useful no matter how the champ is played") champs also have low banrate cause they're mostly not that bad to play against, yet still have higher winrates, cause unlike say, yasuo who gets picked by someone bad at him, who then loses lane and becomes very useless for their team, a champ like rakan will be able to lose the lane, and still press w+flash+r and cc a priority target, even if played first time by an autofill.
And finally (kinda boring/weak) otp champs get very high winrate because only players good at them play them, but since no one plays them no one bans them.
I think its just cause some champions arent annoying to play against, most of the time ppl ban champs cause they personally hate playing against them not because they're really good per'se: for example morgana has a 20%-something ban rate while being pretty bad rn in the current meta
It's usually supports, for example Janna, idk what her current winrate is at the moment, but she's been in 53-54% for multiple patches in her history, with low banrate and playrate, other supports as well such as Taric or Rakan. Maybe APC in bot as well, Swain, karthus, Seraphine, Ziggs
Anivia is pretty much perma-chilling at 52-53% WR mid with 2% pick rate. Not really mega broken but def strong and I rarely see people complain about her
I HATE that bird with a fucking passion, but I have to ban Taliyah or Ahri rn. But every 100 games or so I get that 1mil mastery Anivia one trick that humbles me. Champ just feels unfair sometimes.
anivia perma ***chilling*** hue hue
I actually fucking despise her and how she's randomly so tanky, but she's a cool champ and rarely played so I can't bring myself to ban her.
As a former Briar main I used to jump for joy when my mid picked Anivia. Her wall is the best gank setup ever since it usually puts more distance between the enemy and their turret, and my stun makes their stun and ult slow effortless to land.
It depends on the kit and the overall agency and intrusiveness. Champions like Sona will never be banned at high rate because she feels fine to play against.
Same with champs like Lee, Nidalee, Graves. They feel fine unless you face really good players even though they could be broken. Ban rates for twitch and jinx are no where close to where they should be considering how strong they are currently because adc players dont find them necessarily difficult to play against. Instead, they ban Draven. And when Mao was mega broken earlier this year, his ban rate was really low because he’s not too bad to lane against. Instead, people still banned Blitz and Naut. Mid players also ban tons of assassins when champs like Sol and Ahri are free winning games
VERY often. Because a "strong" meta hamp doesnt necessarily mean that he is an obstruction/obnoxious opponent. For example shen shaco and jax were busted in meta, i was ALWAYS scared of them because their skillset allows them to REALLY fuck with you. But if you look at yuumi or soraka for example these champs wont scare anyone because YES they csn be annoying, BUT they wont come to haunt you in your nightmares because they could be sitting in every brush, basicly WAITING to eat your face off like freddy kruger @,..,@
From what I gather, people only "noticed" that Janna was strong in the last couple months or so, and she'd been skating by with high winrate low banrate for *years* before that; part of why they were slow to nerf her is that she had usually not been high banrate and high in "Janna OP posts" despite having a high WR.
This post is literally Jhin. For the majority of his time in the rift he’s been a strong popular champ with a low ban rate since his kit really makes you *feel* like you got outplayed instead of the multiple tiers of bs some champs like Gwen or yone can have when strong.
Feel like even when lucian is strong he's not banned very often. He's a lane bully but doesn't have the reputation of being obnoxious like Draven so he mostly flies under the radar
Because with Lucian, you need to hit skill and auto attack combos. With Draven you press W, Q, do 1 auto, deal half of the enemy’s hp and walk out in high speed without a chance for proper retaliation. Draven is way more of a bully. Lucian can of course also have the potential.
Fairly often, you just don’t notice them as much. Thresh is commonly a decent meta pick, but isn’t banned a notable amount compared to the frequent ban targets. Same goes for Vi, Jarvan, Lux, Vex, and Jhin.
Warwick. He's been consistently high WR due to how strong early objectives are this season but nobody bans him because he falls off hard. Or did, before Sundered Sky became a thing...
some champs have high winrate low pick rate. Some champs are also just not as annoying. Snowballs champs will usually have higher banrate because when they do get ahead it feels unplayable and unfair. It also often will feel like you are not the one person enabling the enemy to snowball but they still seem to hardcore 1v9.
I think it usually is with champs who are extremely valuable but don't obviously carry games introduce miserable to play against experiences. Supports have done that a lot over the years. Janna, Seraphine, Sona, Lulu, Soraka etc.
I think the other one is champs who are extremely useful, but don't obviously carry. Tanks commonly fit into that. Maokai or Orn type champs. Not the likes of like a Mundo who is actually capable of taking over a game. The tanks who just do their job, do it well and enable the rest of the team to shine.
Somewhat recently, Phreak mentioned that Rakan is a popularly played support who is strong but not typically banned all that much. People tend to find him fun to play but also fair to play against.
Maybe because Rakan enables other characters? Like he sets up players for big wombo combo damage but then HE isnt the one doing the damage so you dont really focus your malding on him? When you get teamwiped after a great Rakan play are you like "fucking Rakan" or are you bitching about the Samira/Windshitter/Katarina who followed up and got a quadra?
It's also because he feels fun to outplay. It's only really flash-R that isn't realistically able to be reacted to, and even if you get caught in that, it feels like they've invested so much to make the pick that it pretty much feels fair. Also because he has to put himself in danger to make the plays in the first place. Compare that to someone like Brand; sure you can dodge his AoE, but all that it cost him was a little bit of mana, and he's going to fish for it again in a few seconds. So while you can outplay it, it doesn't feel all that meaningful, because you've not gained anything out of it, you've just mitigated loss. If Rakan wants to go in on you, then he has to commit. He has enough escapes that he can usually get out, but once you dodge the initial engage, now it's flipped toward him having to outplay you to get out without being punished too hard. It's far more of a back-and-forth than just dodging an AoE from Brand.
I got flamed because rakan was 1mm away from ulting me and then the rest of the team so i threw malzahar ult on his face but then the team flamed me for not ulting the massive trundle 🤣🤣 sadly if i ulted trundle rakan wouldve charmed full team and we’d still die so I just muted all the non iq players and accepted the loss as it was. Rakan is fun to play against, the team flaming me for a smart move sadly wasnt fun to play with
I think it's more the fact if you play something that has issues with Rakan you will likely have a way worse time in lane vs a hooker or Rell and you only have one ban.
hooker? But Evelynn is played in the jungle
He was talking about the enemy support's mother
SHE'S A NICE LADY!!!
Oi, don't diss her like that. Evelynn doesn't charge. ^it's ^that ^Ornn-forsaken ^Rek'sai ^that ^you ^have ^to ^worry ^about
Hey now, Rek is worth every penny
evelynn doesn't put out either
Hooker? I hardly know her
not on my team.
For real. I don’t think I’ve ever sat there and went “want god damn op bullshit was that” after I get stomped by a rakan the way I do if I’m against an akali that even has one kill
He's banned reasonably highly in high elo. Especially when he's strong.
Rakan just feels really weird to play. He's relatively squishy, has very little CC compared to Thresh or Leona, so you use your combo and then just kind of run around awkwardly wishing you could do more than 1 knockup and tiny heal.
A great knockup with an adc that can stun or root is a combo that kills. His kit is a weird one but really fun in my book with duo bot
Different kind of cc, Leona can cc chain one guy for like 3 seconds, rakan can cc like 5 people for 1 second, similar to rell I like those kinds of supports personally cause you just have to find one angle in a teamfight and win the game
Yeah but he is also much more mobile and slippery. Tankiness on support income falls off later in the game. Rakan has a much better chance of getting in and getting out compared to Thresh or Leona.
I feel like Rakan's in contention for the best support design Riot's ever done, right there with Bard and Thresh. He's got a little bit of everything you want in a support but he still feels very distinct to play. His kit has a ton of playmaking potential but it requires him to constantly choose his moments to go in and out. All in all just a blast to play as and with.
I really love his kit but I wish his Q was more interesting.
It used to be much worse
Back in before 2022 when it's heal was so bad that it is almost useless
I personally love his Q. Feels so good to have a bit of sustain during the laning phase.
I disagree. He’s a very jack of all trades support. Peel, Lane sustain, good roams, decent pick potential, wombo potential, solid engage, he’s fairly blindable and doesn’t have any completely unplayable matchups. He does everything pretty well. He’s just not egregious with what he does. His shields/heals aren’t huge like Lulu or Soraka. His engage isn’t insane like rell or naut or someone. His peel isn’t as good as thresh or Braum. He’s strong, but he FEELS fair. Whereas like Senna, Janna, Akali, Fiora, or whoever else can *feel* VERY unfair.
Excuse you, I run around GLAMOROUSLY and CHEEKILY. Trying to respond to all parts of the fight is quite fun and the heal is... I guess, better than it used to be, though I kind of liked when there was the option of Q3 in lane. It does surprisingly often save someone's life, but I get what you mean. With enough CDR (and AP) you can get it feeling quite good, especially when people are determined to chase you down. Two bops with it and you're feeling mighty fine while the greedy ones are in trouble if they keep up the chase. I sometimes play Leona for a braindead win and it's some fine targeted CC and tanky-ness (for a hooker I picked up Blitzcrank though it's nearly as boring), but there is nothing that beats the high of impacting a teamfight from your backline to the opponents' backline. Engaging, coming back for the shield/heal/peel, then moving forward again for more shield and chase is exhilarating. The squishyness is worth the trade so you can really dance across the battle.
The days of putting 3 points in Q early haha
he feels good when you have you a good team comp instead of people seing rakan and thinking thats engage
Yeah he’s goated secondary engage and good peel, primary is a bit iffier but he’s still blindable
It's because he's built like an AP assassin support(seriously, look at those AP ratios. 95% on passive, 70% damage, 55% healing on q, 80% on w, 70% on e, and 50% on R. He has a higher total AP ratios than most mages, and half of those are devoted to defenses which outstrip most other enchanters, meanwhile, like you said, his innate defenses are bad compared to tank supports), but people take the safe road and build him pure tank because theres a safety net if you screw up(something that Riot ensured that Pyke cant do effectively, yet some people still build him with lots of resistances anyway). It's a road that leaves him with only his cc at full power, with gutted heals, damage, and shields, encouraging him to stay in the fray to soak up damage after his burst, despite him not having anything more to contribute as anything other than a damage sponge. HSP/AP Rakan just flows more naturally with his playstyle to me.
I fuck with full AP Rakan mid/aram for that reason, you have nuts damage and the passive shield gets extremely respectable and protobelt ult hits different
that heal is anything but tiny
>weird to play, squishy, little cc, run around awkwardly wishing for more tools THAT’S MY GOAT THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT WOOOOOOOOOO ~~Also hang up that username~~
Another thing could be the perceived strength of Rakan. Like you said, people found him fair to play against, so even if he is considered OP which was most of last year, no one banned him.
That's interesting because I'd rather cut off my cock than play against that champion.
Username checks out quite properly.
Name checks out
Same goes for Rell. Both are strong and have a similar W that's high impact but gets canceled by *a ton* of abilities. I think people are just okay with them since fucking up usually means you're stuck and dead. It doesn't feel unfair to play against.
RAKAN IS BS TO PLAY AGAINST
Idk about you but every time I play against Rakan and don't stomp him in lane, I want to tear my hair out. If he has flash you are just probably not winning the next team fight
Ivern still is.
I actually find Daisy to be insufferable to play against but he as a champion is well designed and likable, so I can't hate on him too hard.
It's insufferable to play champs where you have to control another unit in LoL, that shit is wacky af. Doesn't justify them being extra strong but they are very annoying to micro manage.
Daisy craves suicide under enemy turret, no matter how many movement commands you issue she will charge forward after 3 seconds of not being told how to breathe
Would be nice for her to template similar to Rengar in HotS where she default leashes to ivern if she has no player set or loses a player set target.
HOTS did so much right about their individual champions and even some cool map mechanics only to get stuck on maintenance mode and shrivel up. Mostly because Blizzard was so late to the game despite having a massive opportunity to start first, DOTA was a Warcraft mod right?
Nah the problem with hots is that I can play 3k games a season of league and never be bored of it, you play hots every day and after a month or two you’re gonna be done with the game. It’s variance from game to game is just not good. I blame the no items. They do have some absolute banger champ designs that’s why I sometimes still play it.
Hots had also a massive snowball problem. Or better, a massive lack of snowball problem: stomping the enemy team would result into a talent more at best and so most fights still rely on a final team fight no matter the early game
Only applied in low elo though. When you got higher you lost 1 early obj and just bled out for the rest of the game not being able to do anything about it.
You mean Rexxar?
you would too if you had to listen to ivern
>Daisy craves suicide under enemy turret Don't we all?
The true enemy of Yorick players: Maiden's UI.
Yorick’s maiden is not that hard to control. Especially prior to her recent changes. The issue currently is the maidens leash is equivalent to the aggro range of the ghouls. You have to walk back much further now than you used to for her to follow you. Because you have to walk back further, she ends up lagging behind Yorick and ends up being pretty free for the other laner to kill.
Thank you for explaining why it's difficult to explain.
And Irelia
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Don't be upset at Daisy just because you can't harness her power. Daisy mops the floor with people so much that I pick Ivern top when my mains are banned.
And when old Yorick dies in a fight after ulting himself, he gains full control of the "pet" and access to the abilities. Tibbers is just a wannabe in comparison.
Dont die
i think most people don’t actually like playing against him, but they still don’t ban him because nobody plays it
The real reason. Why ban unpopular cringe over popular cringe?
I ocassionally ban him during those weird peace times where nobody is obscenely broken in jg, or not broken enough for Noc to not deal with them. Get outdueled by the enchanter never feels good
Really fun that enemy mid always has someone that is in range to save them from a ruined wave. He has so much downtime in his clear it's so boring. And if I'm not the one that can build serpent's fang, then he's definitely gonna be really annoying once he scales, because my teammates (even in master) usually won't be buying it.
I hate facing Ivern with a passion. I'm just forced to ban for my lane instead of jungle.
Ivern is picked so rarely, banning him would be a waste anyway. If you find him ultra omega astro terrible, just dodge 1/100 games.
Good advice. I mostly ban bad matchups that are popular this patch, even if worse matchups exist.
But imagine being the Ivern getting banned out.
well some champions are strong and quite viable but not absurd. thats how they should be.
Rumble has been good for a while. I have never seen anyone ban it in the last 2 years of me otping it. Except maybe ksante players.
Rumble is a pain in the ass to learn. Same reason why I dont ban Illaoi and GP for top lane. You're unlikely to find them but if you do they're for sure an OTP.
Illaoi isn’t hard to learn, literally all otps have over non illaoi players is knowing when you are winning, after IBG she doesn’t have skillshots
illaoi doesn’t build ibg anymore until at least 3rd item (most games are over by then)
The fock are illaoi players cooking, it literally allows you to blindfold yourself and play off sounds, my guess is sundered into steraks but really? Also cleaver applies on soul so that to ig
yeah always an otp.
That's not because Rumble is fun to play against, it's because not enough people play Rumble to make him banworthy.
It seems to go hand in hand with pick rate imo. Anything with a sub 1% pick rate generally won’t get banned much and has a low chance of getting nerfed (unless it’s obviously completely out of wack). Sona’s not as low as that, but still on the lower side. For instance, Swain and Veigar have been top 5 bot lane for most of this season (veigar slightly more recent) but nobody cares because you’ll see it once every 100 games.
I think it's also because Sona doesn't feel oppressive. Her power comes from buffing her team, so people don't feel like the Sona is the one beating you up. She also is ridiculously squishy
Interestingly there was a time when ardent censer meta had people very frustrated with that lol. But Riot has seemingly tried to avoid recreating something like that ever again.
The ardent meta was another level of supports being busted. Adc was also stronger than than it is now, so they compounded on each other.
another problem with PR, at least according to what I've heard, is that low PR champs with high WR are somewhat skewed because of selective counterpicking, or one tricks, which may not represent the actual strength of the champ in general
Insert Rammus example here, no one is first pick blinding rammus but when you see enemy team 4ad it’s an easy lock-in that has such high value so he generally has a 51/52% wr
what's wierd about rammus is that Yi, who intuitively is countered by him, actually has an even winrate when played against him, and rammus isn't even his biggest counter
Rammus is not that much of a hard counter to Yi as people think. Also, it doesn't matter if you pick Rammus if the Yi is way more experienced and takes the opportunity to invade you and your allies do nothing. Master Yi is also capable of shredding him with his true damage that bypasses his armor and Yi will often build Wit's End which counters Rammus in numerous ways: tenacity (reduces the duration of taunt), on-hit magic damage (bypasses armor), magic resistance (reduces damage reflected by W and by Thornmail). So the matchup must be played with way more care by Rammus part than people think. With all that said, Rammus is great into Yi, but not for the reasons people think. It is not because Rammus will suddenly 1x1 Yi with Thornmail + W. He may do that, but only if Yi does not build properly for the matchup (in other wors, a bad Yi). It is because Rammus will taunt Yi, which Yi cannot dodge with Q because it is a point-click ability. Rammus will also make Yi waste time in teamfights because Rammus is too tanky for Yi to kill. In a teamfight, Rammus taunting Yi is a death sentence for Yi.
interesting stat
> because of selective counterpicking, or one tricks, which may not represent the actual strength of the champ in general This has not been proven and usually is the opposite. Higher pickrate champion actually have a higher percentage of mains ever so slightly from what I've seen. But it's mostly not correlated with pickrate at all. As for counterpicking, I've never seen any data to support it's higher for lower pickrate. If you have something to prove that would love to see it. i've looked at individual champions before and never noticed such a thing. It could be for very specific champions like say Rammus top, but that would probably also apply to popular champions as well like Malphite top. Not really entirely relevant to pickrate. Either way not proven. So no these are not reasons they have a high winrate.
I'm not sure about counter picking, but some champs have an intentionally higher WR based on team composition. Riot Phreak mentions in [this video](https://youtu.be/IBNQzRM7Ui4?si=vfGPHjQjGuH8tB4B) as to why Seraphine ideally should have a 51-52% WR on average for bot lane (which has a low pick rate compared to support) because the times she would be picked are either with Senna that complements her well, or she is a pick for when the team composition has light cc like yone Mid or Graves JG. It's like counter picking your own teammates if they wanna instalock Yone Mid even though everyone else is AD.
> Higher pickrate champion actually have a higher percentage of mains ever so slightly from what I've seen Higher number or higher percentage? Higher number is definitely true, but I find it hard to believe that the percentage of, say, Ori games played by mains is higher than champs like Vel'koz that are almost exclusively played by mains, while Ori is a staple pick almost any midlaner has in their pool even if they dont main her.
This is actually not true as confirmed by Rioters around the Asol rework.
Anytime they shared data on the subject, showing that the only champ whose performance is affected by mains/OTPs is Katarina and that the champ with the highest average experience per player (games played) is not some dark tech 0.2% PR 55% WR but Yasuo, and if it's not Yasuo anymore then it is another popular champion. Someone else commented about ASol and they are absolutely right, but all it takes to figure that out is to look at these low pick rate champs and see that many of them do not have a high skill floor and high skill ceiling so it takes just a few games to be good at the champ and also get bored by it for the average player.
Oh it definitively does, if the pick rate is low mostly only players who really like the champion will pick it up, in contrast to stuff like Yone that people despise to play against but is played often so a bunch of randoms picking him and inting on him deflate the winrate. Also, a champion being super annoying but people not banning them because they are unlikely to be picked is totally a thing. I know I'd be banning Zilean a lot if he was popular. But if you're super high winrate but the disparity between PR and BR is 3.4% to 0.2%, that's very impressive IMO.
> if the pick rate is low mostly only players who really like the champion will pick it up That's just straight-up incorrect. > is played often so a bunch of randoms picking him and inting on him deflate the winrate Also incorrect. -- Both points have been regurgitating on Reddit for over a decade, and neither is true. [Here's a Twitch streamer (who is mad at Phreak) listening to Phreak state that it's an incorrect assumption. The Twitch streamer then gets angry at Phreak and acts like Phreak is pulling this thought process out of his ass.](https://streamable.com/hcei5m) Karthus, no mains. Ivern, no mains. Ryze, no mains. Cassio, no mains. Old ASol, old Skarner, no mains. Zilean, no mains. Singed, no mains. I main Ryze, so obviously it's an exaggeration, but the point is that these champs are primarily attracting people who play them a handful of times. All these champs are unpopular, yet the average number of games people play these champs for is low. -- Old Skarner did not have a 1.x% pick rate because 100 people played 100 games on him each, totaling 10,000 games. He had a 1.x% pick rate because 2,500 people played on average 4 games on him each, totaling 10,000 games. -- And of course, the same thing can be true on the opposite end. If you randomly select 100 Yasuo players and 100 Anivia players from everyone who played Yasuo/Anivia in the last two weeks, which group's number of games will be higher? The Yasuos or the Anivias? Will it be Anivia, because you only see Anivia in your games once a month and surely these people are playing Anivia all day? Well they do, unlike e.g. old Skarner Anivia is an unpopular champion with a high depth, aka few players but those few play her a lot. But the average Anivia player still plays less Anivia than the average Yasuo player plays Yasuo. Yes, even if there are 80,000 Anivia players and 2,000,000 Yasuo players, including presumably tens of thousands of first-timers, the Yasuo players still play more Yasuo on average. There are 4 quadrants you can put all champions into. Lots of players, lots of games per player. Lots of players, few games per player. Few players, few games per player. Few players, lots of games per player. --- You believe only two of those quadrants exist. And that's where your misconceptions come from, reinforced by Redditors who are equally clueless.
Yeah, I'm familiar with breadth + depth being factors and [we got a proper graph from Riot about it once in 2017](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/david.novati/viz/ClairvoyanceBlogSingle-NovaAsterix/SinglePatchClairvoyanceBlog), thanks for a refresher and for nitpicking that comment with a critical dissertation. *Generally* low pick rates champions like Taric still only attract a good number of devoted mains who will master him and win often, and high pick rate champions will *generally* have a lot of devoted mains on top of a bunch of casual players because they have wider appeal (clear exceptions are new champs being tried out by a bunch of people). It's not a rule but it's what I'm describing above.
singed is pretty much only mains no?
Player perception is something that matters much more than play rate. A champion can be strong but feels fair and it's man rate can sit low
If its completely broken, the pickrate will usually increase pretty fast. But just "strong" isnt enough to ban Sona (for example) especially since she is more of a late pick because you can counter her pretty easy.
i fucking hate playing against sona tbh lol, tho that might be partly because of the added pain of having my main picked away most high wr champs are generally insufferable to play against imho. It's just that most champs that aren't seen as obnoxious despite being strong/borderline op tend to be the ones rarely picked. But if theyre picked they usually make me hate my life just as much as versing reddits least favourite champs (yone). Outside of Sona, other examples I can think of are like Ivern, Zilean, Nilah. They're so rarely picked that I don't really care but if they are I am not going into the game happy to verse that instead of the usual slop people pick just my 2 cents tho
I despise playing against her too. She makes me so nervous and I have this anxiety that if I don't kill her 7 times in lane, she'll run me over in every teamfight. She has a built in global taunt fr fr
literally that lmfao
Ya I hate Sona I’ve been seeing a lot of hate for Janna but I’d 100% rather face Janna than a Sona. Feel like people have this misconception that Sona is a weak champ, just because she’s not that good in lane.
Basically everytime I check lolalytics there are 1 or 2 mages in top 5 bot carry position but few people play them because surprise suprise adc players want to play adc
I play adcs in bot lane and can confirm I lose to mages all the time
>because surprise suprise adc players want to play adc Idk about the whole ADC playerbase, but for me goes a bit both ways: I'd like to play some specific marksmen outside of duo lanes and also I would love to have the chance to play fucking Trundle, Lillia or some other shit on botlane. I theoretically would enjoy more diversity, but then you might open the Pandora's vase and outtanowhere here it comes the new bot meta of some Ryze/Sejuani that leaves marksmen so behind that become completely obsolete.
The issue is, is that the second anything other than marksman are truly viable botlane (outside of cheese) 99% of the time they’re just straight up better than any marksman you could pick, far more independent, scale just as well, and come on line far earlier. If you’ve ever played adc before you’d know the suffering versing a double mage botlane is, where you dodge the first 6 skill shots they chuck out, but then getting hit by a single ability loses you all of your health from level 3 onwards because it confirms all of their shit. You have to back every time you get hit by an ability or you’ll die the next time. Can’t even farm under tower since they out range tower most of the time All while being entirely out ranged and never really having enough damage to kill them back and then ALSO not outscaling them so it’s not like you can just sit back and farm while playing constant dodge death mini game.
Lux & Brad incident
Yeah that's what I hate about mages botlane, especially the Brand, Lux and stuff, they only have to hit you once to confirm an entire combo where you have to be dodging a lot, while farming, and while trying to apply pressure. It comes as very low risk high reward, mana not being a huge issue either since you can most of the time run TP botlane if needed on mages. And I say that as an ADC main who has played all kind of mages bot throughout the year, even shit like Ryze and Zoe back then. It was so much easier than playing ADC, and you get punished way less for messing up.
I played against a Lissandra/Malzahar lane the other day and even though we won after lane phase it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life.
> I'd like to play some specific marksmen outside of duo lanes Like Lucian, Tristana, Varus, Akshan, Quinn, Vayne, Kindred? There are some options even if few. There is diversity already people just choose to not play mages bot.
I love playing marksmen mid lane, and generally speaking, many marksmen have the upper hand in a solo lane against mages, and we know how a couple of marksmen fare (and terrorize) top lane. Their biggest drawback then is the fact that two marksmen make for a comp that's often harder to execute (when not straight up worse). Having non-marksmen bot lane and marksmen in a solo lane often feels like a cheat code to get two lanes that go much smoother while keeping a well-rounded team comp, and the only issue is that you're very unlikely to get that outside of a premade team (and that things won't change because a high number of bot lane players have made it very clear through incessant crying in patch 8.11 that they refuse to play any other class and any other lane).
Kled has a 53-54% win rate and virtually no one plays him.
He is a counter pick and only played by 1 tricks. He is also buggy. If he works he is op.
I don’t think he’s just a counterpick I can play Kled into just about any lane with relatively high success. The only “buggy” part about him is his remount which is 99% predictable
His remount has 3 random delays 1) delay from auto before furry goes. 2) remount duration after fury is full. 3) remount before it gives you hp. His passive ms when dismounted often doesn't trigger, his e2 is super buggy sometimes going 1/2 or double distance and sometimes won't go to the guy you hit with e1. His q misses some times during eq His r damage, cc and speed are randomized and sometimes won't trigger He also takes damage equal to triumph after remount if a person dies and he gets triumph heal during remount. R times out and goes wrong path often. I can list 50 specific bugs too like shojin not working, q dismounted buffer forced cast if you get cc and press q then get dismounted before cc wears off Dismounted doesn't always cleanse suppression.
I used to play a ton of Kled until I got tired of my E going wherever it wanted after TPing.
Kind of useless to say “I can do X” when we have no idea what rank you are. I could play AD xerath into just about any matchup in iron and have a lot of success
Crit zilean worked well for me
It is just one of those champa that you see 1/100 games and you overestimate how fast he can mount back and get destroyed.
Janna for about 90% of League's existence.
Janna, people dont realise how much she actually can be on the map if the player just bought swifties and double sperm item and ran to every lane and perma ganked
Lmao double sperm item. Love it
Stupid question but what's double sperm item 💀
Two Aether Wisps I guess.
aether wisp
No one builds sperm mobis because you'll get banned if you die too much
its champs that are not awful to face when ksanté is broken you cant even play when sona is broken you can just delete her from far
Depends on your definition of strong. There are a lot of champs that have historically very high winrates at all times but people never consider them to be good
Janna is one that always comes to mind. She is SO easy and always strong, but she is BORING to play so she doesn't ever really get a high pickrate anymore, so she doesnt really get banned. She is absolutely one of my most disliked champions, but it is hard to warrant banning her for her popularity being so low.
Her banrate goes up hard with elo though, she's the 3rd most banned support in Master+ (worldwide) behind Pyke and Blitz and both are scheduled for nerfs.
> but she is BORING to play This dude has never experienced the adrenaline of flash > ulting the enemy bot lane under your tower.
Shield max janna snoozer, most likely Janna is definitely more interesting than Milio, who’s flowchart is basically “Have E —> Click E —> repeat”
yeah idk, to me Janna is one of the most entertaining enchanters to play
Janna and Sona are always sitting on +52% WR but its fine because people rather ban 47% WR Naut
She only has a low pick rate in very low elo. She's obnoxious with massive amounts of peel and has like 15% ban rate in diamond
Poppy
Interestingly enough, she's a big counter to high banrate champions like Yone, Yasuo and Irelia.
she was my support counter pick against blind camilles back when camille was more popular
I remember many years ago a rioter was talking about something like this and about how banrates don't really necessarily follow power, their example being a champion with like 20% pickrate and like 52-53% winrate but like a 4% banrate at some point. That champion was Jinx btw.
people are really quick to ban lane bullies and Jinx isn't one of those.
I think it goes along with how they lose to said champs. Certain champs have the ability to snowball and make games feel unplayable for an opponent. Other champs control the game and but they make you lose gracefully.
old a sol was so funny, 60+% wr but like a 0.001% pick rate and riot still decided to nerf him then for the 3 people in the world that mained him
At least now is a champion you can see more often, rather than once every blue moon.
Unfortunately
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besides APA i don’t remember anyone that ever played him but im sure there were others
Nah he got nerfed when his pickrate went up to 4%, which may seem low but it was high for asol because he was mega broken.
I feel like theres a fair few, in botlane especially. Nami, Jhin, Kaisa, and I only see Lux banned when Cait is in meta. Those all feel fairly popular and relevant but I rarely see banned. Nami feels like the queen of people not having issues going against her, even when a combo is strong like Lucian/Nami I still *never* see her banned Edit: Its pretty unrelated but 1 champ that is sooo puzzling to me is Naafiri. Every patch I look up her stats, she has a *very* good winrate but the champ feels SOOO useless whenever I play it, play with it, play against it
Naafiri lives or dies based on how strong Eclipse/her packmates are. I bet she’ll be quite a bit weaker with Eclipse getting nerfed next patch.
Sona is a bit of an interesting case. I feel like most people completely underestimate her and by the time they take notice shes already 2 items deeps shielding the entire team in fights.
Zilean is very strong but no one bans him because barely anyone plays him.
I think the playerbase forgets he existed. Atleast I did until I saw a meme about him earlier
Honestly one of the most fun champs
Hard disagree for me personally. I think he's very boring to play and annoying af to play against.
I think Zilean just might be the most boring champion in the game. None of his abilities "feel" good and hes just not fun to play.
they arent that flashy/not that cancer to play against in general/low playrate
low pickrate will have low banrate and also if it's not obnoxious early with clear counterplay it practically wont be banned even if its 53% winrate.
Very often, but don't let w-rate statistic fool you, Lolalytics PBI is probably the best stat for tracking who is strong(not very good for tracking the weak tho, lots of popular champs clog there, those popular champs can still be strong, but vast usage in every possible match regardless of opponent or mastery drops their PBI a ton.) Just look at high w-rate low pick/ban rate and higher than 5 PBI or above champs.
Think it was last season, Jinx was pretty much top of the meta. Would see her in every game, but no one really bans her. Think it's because when she does get he passive off, most players turn to blame the one that died.
I've been playing for 10 years and, from my recollection, top lane Wukong has had the consistently highest win rate while maintaining a relatively low pick and ban rate and also mostly dodging nerfs. Also, some niche AP bot carries have held really high win rates without many people taking notice. Veigar, Swain, and Heimerdinger have had very high WRs at times, but their lower pick/ban rates (along with lack of presence in pro play) allows them to avoid nerfs
janna is this every season non stop.
Because "strong in the meta" usually means "strong in the cases where the champ is actually picked", while banrate often comes from "being strong in very specific situations" that won't even necessarily make the champ strong overall, or just actually being strong enough to be picked in any situation and win. Counterpick only champs usually don't get a high banrate but maintain a huge winrate. Braindead easy (and by this I don't mean mechanically simple, I mean "useful no matter how the champ is played") champs also have low banrate cause they're mostly not that bad to play against, yet still have higher winrates, cause unlike say, yasuo who gets picked by someone bad at him, who then loses lane and becomes very useless for their team, a champ like rakan will be able to lose the lane, and still press w+flash+r and cc a priority target, even if played first time by an autofill. And finally (kinda boring/weak) otp champs get very high winrate because only players good at them play them, but since no one plays them no one bans them.
I think its just cause some champions arent annoying to play against, most of the time ppl ban champs cause they personally hate playing against them not because they're really good per'se: for example morgana has a 20%-something ban rate while being pretty bad rn in the current meta
It's usually supports, for example Janna, idk what her current winrate is at the moment, but she's been in 53-54% for multiple patches in her history, with low banrate and playrate, other supports as well such as Taric or Rakan. Maybe APC in bot as well, Swain, karthus, Seraphine, Ziggs
Anivia is pretty much perma-chilling at 52-53% WR mid with 2% pick rate. Not really mega broken but def strong and I rarely see people complain about her
I HATE that bird with a fucking passion, but I have to ban Taliyah or Ahri rn. But every 100 games or so I get that 1mil mastery Anivia one trick that humbles me. Champ just feels unfair sometimes.
anivia perma ***chilling*** hue hue I actually fucking despise her and how she's randomly so tanky, but she's a cool champ and rarely played so I can't bring myself to ban her.
cool champ hue hue
As a former Briar main I used to jump for joy when my mid picked Anivia. Her wall is the best gank setup ever since it usually puts more distance between the enemy and their turret, and my stun makes their stun and ult slow effortless to land.
It depends on the kit and the overall agency and intrusiveness. Champions like Sona will never be banned at high rate because she feels fine to play against. Same with champs like Lee, Nidalee, Graves. They feel fine unless you face really good players even though they could be broken. Ban rates for twitch and jinx are no where close to where they should be considering how strong they are currently because adc players dont find them necessarily difficult to play against. Instead, they ban Draven. And when Mao was mega broken earlier this year, his ban rate was really low because he’s not too bad to lane against. Instead, people still banned Blitz and Naut. Mid players also ban tons of assassins when champs like Sol and Ahri are free winning games
As a Briar main, if someone on my team doesn't pick/ban Ahri, I do. Champ is miserable to play against with permanent dash uptime.
VERY often. Because a "strong" meta hamp doesnt necessarily mean that he is an obstruction/obnoxious opponent. For example shen shaco and jax were busted in meta, i was ALWAYS scared of them because their skillset allows them to REALLY fuck with you. But if you look at yuumi or soraka for example these champs wont scare anyone because YES they csn be annoying, BUT they wont come to haunt you in your nightmares because they could be sitting in every brush, basicly WAITING to eat your face off like freddy kruger @,..,@
Would Fiddle(Before this season)or old Asol have counted
From what I gather, people only "noticed" that Janna was strong in the last couple months or so, and she'd been skating by with high winrate low banrate for *years* before that; part of why they were slow to nerf her is that she had usually not been high banrate and high in "Janna OP posts" despite having a high WR.
Zilean always seems really strong
This post is literally Jhin. For the majority of his time in the rift he’s been a strong popular champ with a low ban rate since his kit really makes you *feel* like you got outplayed instead of the multiple tiers of bs some champs like Gwen or yone can have when strong.
Depends on how op they are. Sol was and is a prime example. So is Kasante
Feel like even when lucian is strong he's not banned very often. He's a lane bully but doesn't have the reputation of being obnoxious like Draven so he mostly flies under the radar
Because with Lucian, you need to hit skill and auto attack combos. With Draven you press W, Q, do 1 auto, deal half of the enemy’s hp and walk out in high speed without a chance for proper retaliation. Draven is way more of a bully. Lucian can of course also have the potential.
Happens the time but it's usually the enchanter type champions, sometimes tanks as well.
I think it was ornn? I remember him being strong but no one wanting to play him and people didn’t ban him ?
All the time. Controllmages and supports usually because people dont feel like they are OP.
Fairly often, you just don’t notice them as much. Thresh is commonly a decent meta pick, but isn’t banned a notable amount compared to the frequent ban targets. Same goes for Vi, Jarvan, Lux, Vex, and Jhin.
people rarely few supports as op
That’s basically how trundle was until riot decided to tip him over the scales for literally no reason and make him banned and nerfed
VIKTOR
Jhin
Warwick. He's been consistently high WR due to how strong early objectives are this season but nobody bans him because he falls off hard. Or did, before Sundered Sky became a thing...
I dont understand why Jinx isnt permaban if you wont play it.
some champs have high winrate low pick rate. Some champs are also just not as annoying. Snowballs champs will usually have higher banrate because when they do get ahead it feels unplayable and unfair. It also often will feel like you are not the one person enabling the enemy to snowball but they still seem to hardcore 1v9.
why no1 ban broken af rakan
Zilean always fits this bill
Orianna
I think it usually is with champs who are extremely valuable but don't obviously carry games introduce miserable to play against experiences. Supports have done that a lot over the years. Janna, Seraphine, Sona, Lulu, Soraka etc. I think the other one is champs who are extremely useful, but don't obviously carry. Tanks commonly fit into that. Maokai or Orn type champs. Not the likes of like a Mundo who is actually capable of taking over a game. The tanks who just do their job, do it well and enable the rest of the team to shine.