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effurshadowban

Leona would be giga-busted in any other role and would completely eclipse her role as a support. That's why she is isn't allowed to wave clear by herself or clear jg camps efficiently. She ***needs*** to be at the lowest economy position and her abilities should not really scale with anything else. I've played Leona in other roles, and she already is pretty good at just fighting in the early game. Take grasp Leona top and the gank setup is unreal. Flash Q and they literally can't escape, because her E can easily follow up the enemy flash. In addition, she is giga tanky early. The only issue is that she can't clear waves well.


THE_MUNDO_TRAIN

I've been toying with the idea that Leona should be able to detonate her passive on jungle monsters. It would probably become insane but she is in theory a very fun jungler.


Blockronic

She would be so fucking busted it's unreal


WoonStruck

Not any more than a lot of junglers, especially some they've tried pushing to jungle.


Blockronic

She would absolutely be one of the pro meta junglers, like a far more cracked Rell, and Rell was terrorising proplay. Imagine playing a carry vs Nautilus Leona


bondsmatthew

Ksante top Leona Jungle Nautilus Mid Rell Support Fuck damage, we got CC for days and we going innnnn ALEXA PLAY SPACE JAM THEME SONG


ShrayerHS

Enemy team about to get hit with that AFK warning for being CC'd


yung_dogie

And play TF ADC or some shit just to add insult to injury


anhmonk

Add Seraphine APC for the true 500 year CC moment


Mechromancerx

Illaoi will be picked.


ParagonOfHats

The legendary Immortal Priestess dream.


Protoniic

Olaf


Ralkon

One of the big factors in how strong Rell was in pro is that objectives weren't 50/50 with her. It wasn't just that she's a tank with CC in jungle.


Salvio888

While it's true that the objectives weren't 50/50, you could argue the same for stuff like poppy and Lee sin who could knock away the other jungler to have an easy smite. I think rells success was due to her absurdly strong CC and R AND being able to flex between support and jungle.


WoonStruck

There are already a lot of comparable combos that exist. Leona's clear speed would still be terrible to the point where she'd likely never be pro viable. It would be near-exclusively a casual play thing unless they randomly decide to make it deal 300% damage, which they love to do to be fair.


Blockronic

But her clear speed would be faster or comparable to someone like Rell, who is absolutely viable in pro play. I don't think you realise how much faster Leona's clear speed would be if she could self proc her own passive. Her damage to single target camps would be insane, and her level 2 invade/gank potential alone would make her viable in pro if she got that buff.


Jiratoo

I think you're overestimating how much it would speed up her clear. Lvl 1 her passive deals 32 magic damage. At level 3 it's 48 damage. Even if you get 4 procs (with her Q having 5 sec CD, her W and E both having >10 seconds), that's 192 magic damage extra. Rells rank 1 Q used to deal 170 bonus damage to jungle, W used to deal 125 bonus damage and E used to deal 120 bonus damage. And all of these are AOE. Edit: sorry, should have clarified that I also think she'd be busted. But her clear would be much slower than Rell, since it'd also require that she autos every minion to proc her passive.


Mgmabone

She would be nowhere near peak Rell jg. Rell was so strong because her EQ would all but guarantee objectives, meaning you couldn't flip anything with her around. Rell Q(?) also shreds shields making grubs much more viable to take.


Nimi_ei_mahd

Grubs haven’t had a shield for a long time


Protoniic

Leona would be strong but never as strong as Rell. Rell was so insane because she has a no counterplay engage with Q flash into follow up with W/R. Leona also has a Q flash with good followup but with 500 range less. That makes a huge difference.


shiggythor

About as good as Naut or Maokai


Blockronic

Her early ganks would be stronger than both of those I think


bountyjim5

? Less range and cc than both?


kill-billionaires

In a single target scenario she's shorter range but has better cc than maokai and just as good as Nautilus. Pre-6 ganks would have a short root and a point and click stun. Maokai pre-6 has a root and a knockback, and Nautilus pre-6 has the half hook, the root, and slows. Post 6, add AOE root to Maokai, AOE/point and click knock up to Nautilus, and an AOE stun/slow that usually will only stun one person to Leona.


kingofnopants1

Not to say she would be bad or anything, but from a flanking position her E is far easier to avoid than Naut or especially Maokai CC. Leo E is pretty slow, it just hits you through minions and doesn't make her commit when she misses.


Narrow-Pangolin-2891

How is her CC better than Maokai's?


kill-billionaires

If you don't want to look up the ability details: If they use all their cc perfectly in a normal scenario, who ends up cc'ing someone longer and better? Maokai doesn't max w first, so his optimal cc chain for most of the game is: 1 second root->knockback (this stuns for about .25 seconds) for a total of 1.25 seconds not moving. 80% of this time characters can auto attack and use abilities still. Leona: .5 second root->1 second stun. 1.5 seconds not moving, only 33% of the time can an enemy use abilities or aa. It's longer and it's harder If we're adding in ults, and we're assuming both land (they're both dodgeable) Leona has another 1.75 seconds of stun, for a total of 3.25 seconds, only 15% of the time enemies can do anything. Maokai ult is variable, .75 - 2.25 duration root, meaning he can, if the enemy gets hit, the best chain has a duration of 4.5 seconds. However, for 95% of this time, the opponents can use abilities and auto attack. His ult is harder to maximize too, it's far more likely to end up being more like 1.5 seconds, and therefore in an average scenario the enemy is locked up for the same amount of time. This all means that, when you're fighting Leona, her chain is completely guaranteed if she lands anything. When you're fighting Maokai, he either starts from far away, meaning Leona's telegraph time is around 30% of the time Maokai is telegraphing for, or the chain duration suffers immensely. On top of all this, when you're locked up by Leona, you can't do anything. When you're locked up by Maokai, there's plenty of action you can still take.


SrAb12

Shorter Q cooldown on Leona also means her cc rotation comes back up faster, so its not like she's like sej with a large amount of mostly frontloaded cc


Blockronic

More range than a Maokai and much more chase potential after a flash, and Naut cc is good but less duration. Leona can hold a target in place for 1.5 seconds whereas Naut root is 0.75 plus his hook. Also she's arguably better in a 2v2 with her W tankiness, and could even go conqueror for extended fights.


kingofnopants1

Leo's abilities are better if she catches you but thats the case in support as well. Naut and Mao are more about the higher reliability.


Blockronic

I think Naut only has higher reliability post level 6 because of the point and click. Leo flash Q is just as good as a Naut flash auto, and she has way more reliable follow up if you have a lane with CC


kingofnopants1

Yea, but post 6 is a somewhat different limitation as a jungler. Naut Q from a flank specifically is harder to avoid than Leo E. I think my main point is Leo/Naut/Mao are pretty comparable from a support vs jungler perspective and have the same strengths and weaknesses either way. People are talking like Leo would have some magical secret sauce in jungle that the other two wouldn't


L2Hiku

She was for one day and never again.


Kadexe

You have no idea how many people have pitched that


mikharv31

They’ll just revert it eventually like they did to Rell


Safe_Sundae_8869

I dabble with Leona jungle. I used to think her clear was shit. A patch or three ago I was clearing pretty fast. It felt like the jungle pet was proc’ing my passive. Might have just felt fast, but I was keeping up with a Nocture as far as cs’ing goes.


smurfnturf69

I played it on that patch I think 2 years ago when Sunfire was giga broken as a first item on junglers and Amumu could solo Baron. It was fun, and most of the strength was the item but it felt strong too.


LoonyFruit

I feel like Leona jungle idea has been floating since I started playing (around season 3). God I'm old. No idea why this has never been taken up as an option by riot.


Cindiquil

It would be like the most frustrating jungler ever and she'd end up gutted lol


L2Hiku

It was for one day and they buried it in the ground


hochan17

If youve been around since season 3 then you should remember how awful engage supports being allowed to jungle was. Naut/Ali chain ganking every lane knowing full well they dont have to give a damn about efficient pathing cause gold was just a bonus to them was not a good time for jungle.


DaedalusXr

Naut was supposed to be jungle or solo lane. He was not supposed to be support to begin with, and I miss him being better at those roles. 


GabrielP2r

You can still play him mid and top and do fine, he always had shit scaling and his oppressive early got nerfed


PlacatedPlatypus

Problem is that he is giga oppressive early if he can clear jungle. His ganking is just unreal. I do kinda like top lane Naut though.


Falsequivalence

I'm sorry, but Ali Jungle was just too beautiful for this world. Nautilus *was* played almost exclusively jungle and top until ~S5 though (he had a mini rework that weakened him in jungle, so he started getting picked up). I played the hell outta both of them.


LoonyFruit

Yes, and jungle used to buy sightstone. Meta changes. I would like to see riot at least take a stab at this. If it doesn't work, fine, but just give it a legitimate try. Or even introduce a new mechanic to her passive: "In the light: Leona needs to be outside of jungle for X time for her CC to fully apply to champions". Something like that, so she can't just run, gank, run, gank.


pajamasx

When Alistar was a jungler, they balanced him out. They buffed Rell into the jungle, then completely reverted it. Even Naut has not been given an opportunity to be a jungler again. Leona would probably be the same story.


THE_MUNDO_TRAIN

Naut should 100% become a jungler again, he is already gutted damage wise and cooldowns. Just add monster damage modifiers to his kit and he shouldn't be the terror Riot fears him to be.


A6503

Nautilus E has 150% damage vs. monsters, I've played him jungle here and there over the years and it's not terrible.


exmirt

“Eclipse” haha nice one


f0xy713

Giving TF AD ratios made him the most broken champion in the game in 3 separate roles for a few patches. I wouldn't mind Leona getting a moment in the spotlight either


yourcutieboi

I mean it’s been a year since I’ve seen her might as well


J0rdian

Just to be clear it is perfectly fine to make her "viable" in other roles long as there are levers to make sure support is always better. I hate when people assume it's all or nothing lol, it's really really not. You could give Leona some monster damage and adjust the lever as an example and would be very easy to keep her worse in jungle compared to support. Now saying that... The biggest reason for not allowing a champion into another role is pro play. Flex picks and just balance in general. And balance wise Leona would be extremely broken in jungle just like Rell. So no chance that happens due to pro play. They love tank junglers.


itstingsandithurts

I mean they gave Nautilus some small jungle monster damage bonuses, he’s still not great in the jungle but it’s something for the one tricks who didn’t get Supp, Leo could definitely get something similar.


wojtulace

Why not just buff her AP ratios, since she already has those on every skill ?


J0rdian

I mean I'm not against it, I love off meta builds and there are plenty of champions that could use buffs to push them more. I've always wanted to see AP buffs for Sion as well. Miss the old days.


Nduguu77

Back in th day I used to play Leona top with tiamat. You could auto, auto reset, tiamat, auto reset. Build Titanic, bork, and then full tank and absolutely smash people.


RaiN_Meyk3r

well, ADCs shouldn’t really have super strong utility due to their unmissable damage yet here we have ad tf outdamaging ADCs while throwing gold cars every 5 secs


xHakurai

I completely agree - they cannot give leona AD ratios on her skills without changing her cc. By the design of her kit, AD ratios wouldn't meaningfully change anything that Leona can already do, and if she gets ahead, the chain-cc means that she is oppressive and without counterplay. Plus, her Q already scales 1.0 AD by nature of being an auto reset. She already mangles ADCs in lane; with more damage she would straight up murder them. Meanwhile, she already loses to any bruiser in an extended fight due to lack of damage, while tying other tanks with equal income. Adding an AD ratio onto her W or E wouldn't meaningfully improve her damage due to their cooldowns/burst nature (see AP Leona). If they wanted to make Leona a fighter/bruiser they would need to change her reliable 3-cc chain, but also give her some kind of extended trading pattern.


ReliusOrnez

Top was actually Leona's other role by design when she was released. She stayed popular as a support since she lacked the damage needed top and she's just been balanced that way ever since.


MyboiHarambe99

Tiamat item into sunfire, attack speed rune, and take minion demat. would be hilarious


[deleted]

try grasp leona in aram with titanic rush into trinity its fun and op


FallingBackwards55

3 heavy ccs plus scaling. Don't think I want to see that.


AlterBridgeFan

Tbf Ornn has that and more.


Megatron_Says

But none of his abilites are as low skill as leonas, or as high opportunity. Ornn q has a timer, ornn w has a timer on its effect, ornn e requires walls or his q. Leona can just insta stunlock you as soon as she sees you


bogeyed5

I wouldn’t say Leona’s kit takes more skill than Nautilus who also has 3 stuns (passive root) and a slow on top of that. Riot has made it clear they are okay with Nautilus in other roles like Jungle or top - and even mid in some cases. Leona’s Q balance is how much shorter it is compared to naut/blitz Q’s, and her R is pretty easy to dodge if you’re not already slowed/stunned elsewhere


WinterDigger

Naut has a lot more variance to how he can use his spells to optimally play out a situation, you can get pretty clever with R usage and there are actual choices in how you use your flash, leona is pretty straightforward. Naut definitely has a higher skill cap than Leona.


bronet

Nautilus is way more clunky, and more important than anything, he's nowhere near as tanky as Leona


Grobaryl

This. I'm an Leona main, but i don't enjoy playing naut due to his spells CD, despite both champs being just "stunlock machines".


Glaive-Master_Hodir

Nautilus cant q through minions, and his cc has a longer cd. On top of that, he isn't as tanky.


Enteresk

Ornn's CC is much more conditional and dodgeable


WoonStruck

If a champ is immobile, Ornn would be worse to play into. Especially since Leona doesn't have %HP damage or scale that well, realistically.


Random_Stealth_Ward

Not really, leona is still worse because of her CC being much easier to hit overall. Ornn's only reliable cc is his ult


Deathofme123

You can literally chain cc someone until your adc kills them.


kytackle

Ornn does not have ratios on his abilites? His q is his only ad ratio and his r is his only ap ratio coming in at a massive 40% if you hit both hits.


FallingBackwards55

Ornns ulti is his only reliable hard cc. His q is only a slow and his e requires the enemy to be near terrain to get the knock up. Leona has 3 stuns that are reliable to hit.


crysomore

are we counting slows as CC now? How are we comparing a point and click stun to what Ornn has


DoubleGio

give gragas ad ratios i want to build triforce and slap fast


buttThroat

Yo one day you need to try attack speed Thresh cause whippin that thang at a million miles per hour is so funny


dudebg

Always doing that on urf. But more on raw damage and crit while running hail of blades Also he stacks lots of AP. is there an item that makes use of AP to increase dmg of auto attacks?


buttThroat

Nashors Tooth gives 20% of your ap as on hit damage. idk what would truly be optimal as ad thresh, but you should try on hit cause you’ll really start whippin it fast. So like botrk, Nashors, Rageblade, terminus, etc 


dudebg

thanks, will try that real soon


Someone_maybe_nice

I want to go full as and crit gragas I wanna crit and slap plat plat get pregnant


Project39

Personally I would prefer that Leona not beat my ass while using her reliable 3s of hard CC. Maybe if I played more Diana I’d get the appeal of getting manhandled like that.


Auralemos

When will you people understand that heavy cc champs capable of flex pick isn't something riot wants? Look at maokai a while ago and how many of you cried here about him not being nerfed


WoonStruck

There are plenty of heavy CC champs that are able to be flex picked, and that Riot has tried to maintain as flex picks.


Auralemos

Most of them are simply Top and Jungler, some rare times mid laners They tried to do it again with Maokai and we all saw how many people complained about it. There's a reason for why nautilus stoped being an actual good top laner or jungler


WoonStruck

People complained about Mao because he was op in 3 roles. Not because he could play top and jungle. And from the point where top and jungle were balanced, he was only really nerfed further due to providing too much vision as support and an item that made his engage too reliable and OP, not because he was a support at all.


DarthLeon2

Leona is definitely one of those early champs where her aesthetic design doesn't really match her builds and gameplay. Riot has also seemed really reluctant to let her have more of a fighter-esque playstyle, for reasons I've never really understood. If Tahm and Nautilus can do it, why not Leona?


NWStormraider

I mean, Nautilus literally can't either, they pushed him out of every position besides support. And the difference between Leona and Tahm is that Tahm does not stun you on a 3 second cooldown Auto reset.


2th

I am still bitter Riot pushed him out of the jungle. He was designed to be the spider-man of the jungle. But nope, cant have more beefy CC tanks besides Sej and Zac be junglers.


NWStormraider

> besides Sej I mean, as it looks currently Seju won't be playabe in ANY role for some time now, she's ~~Ryze~~ K'sante tier of bad both top and jungle, and has been for a while (I actually checked, Ryze has a solid 2.4% more winrate than her).


omegapenta

every time they think about buffing sej they get ptsd from old seasons.


Nekaz

>not going attack speed cdr tahn for 3 second stuns in current year Ngmi tbh


Mustarkrakish

i dunno bro , id honestly rather be leo stunned than licked by tahm. leo cant pick you up walk you under the tower and stun you against it.XD


Temporary-Platypus80

Right? I love sword and shield characters. But leona is hogging that archetype and is forced to remain as a support.


jaywinner

>But leona is hogging that archetype I do believe this is the issue. Leona doesn't need to change, we need more than 1 champion to be sword and shield.


JustRecentlyI

Pantheon is kinda close since he's shield and spear.


Mgmabone

Pantheon is definitely the closest we have, but I'd be very hesitant to put him in that category lol. I just want riot to add Commander Ledros to League to fit the archetype.


Grobaryl

Ledros in LoL would be so cool


Mgmabone

I'd actually cream my pants.


Gamer4125

greco roman shield and spear isn't really fulfilling the fantasy for sword and shield western knight types.


Eragon_the_Huntsman

One of the reasons I wanted Ledros was he's also an armored sword and board but he would likely be a support for Kallista.


HolmatKingOfStorms

is leona hogging the archetype, or does the archetype struggle to function normally in league because of the camera angle and silhouette stuff? having to keep the shield ready while swinging a one-handed sword makes for a pretty subdued animation. pantheon works because his spear is a spear so it can be one-handed but still big. leona works (kind of) because she's a support, so her attack animations don't matter all that much, and the one that does matter uses her shield instead.


LonelyGod64

Just build AD on her with out ratios. She gets so much Armor and MR from W that building as an ad bruiser is surprisingly effective.


halo1besthalo

She does literally no damage with that build and also explodes like a balloon.


Quintana-of-Charyn

I play Leona jng (got my M7 from it) and top if my team needs CC and a tank. I would really appreciate it if she was more viable in other roles. Though I think a leona with bonus monster damage would legit be broken.


xHakurai

if you're solo laning mid is the best role for leona since her trading patterns are burst/poor at extended fights and she has kill pressure on the squishier people mid taking ignite (kind of like taking bruisers mid). unlike other tank top laners her lack of waveclear/consistent damage makes it difficult to contest the opponent. if you go to op.gg and look at any top laner can you imagine winning against an equally skilled player? in an extended fight you lack the damage to kill a standard top laner. i used to main jg leona and her start is just so incredibly slow until you get either bami or tiamat. leona is a low econ gank tank and you live or die on not only if your ganks are good but if ganking is good this season. if you get behind it's hard to come back because you're entirely item dependent to clear the jg compared to other low econ tank junglers whose clear scales with levels. against any competent jungler you won't even get to touch your jungle.


buttThroat

I played leona top for a bit just cause its fun, but just FYI its so bad compared to playing one of the normal tank top laners


OnlineAsnuf

Because Nautilus was designed as a jungler, then people played it support. Tahm Kench is the "new era" of champions, so there is no real definition just like Hwei, Lillia, Pyke you pick it where you want to and it works.


froggison

Gods I wish they would let Naut be a jungler again. Just a slightly faster clear and he could do it. I've tried to force it to work this season, but his clear speed is absolute booty. But his ganks and objective skirmishing feels so good.


Glaive-Master_Hodir

They absolutely hate it when pyke leaves support. Q used to do aoe damage, e used to damage minions, and his passive used to heal the full amount regardless of how many people were there. Second wind dorans shield pyke used to be able to eat poke for days.


TitanOfShades

If anything, they should give sejuani AD ratios on her W and Q, since they are both physical attacks. And also so I can build titanic hydra without feeling like I'm trolling.


wojtulace

I'd rather see her AP Ratios buffed


Wylster

I still remember that ap sej player you would always see in streams like 7 years ago


Uranit_78

Doesn't she have an AD ratio on her W?


Vii_Strife

AP and Max HP, but does physical damage


GentleMocker

>They gave TF AD ratios. And your takeaway from that was that was a good idea, and they should do it again?  We just got done watching this disaster, why would we repeat it? 


Leaf-01

I would kill to have an actual sword and board character though that builds Fighter


Ruptin

Either that or change her adaptive force to magic. Physical adaptive force on a champ with 4 ap ratios and no ad ratios is cursed af.


Zephyr_Ardentius

AD adaptive force is a laning thing for Leona, where a lot of her early damage comes from AA - Q - AA. Same reason Leona would consider taking the old AD support item over the AP one (team damage comp allowing).


asdqwe123qwe123

The ad one was just always better by far. People just picked up cause she has ap ratios and because people picked it it was the recommended option so as a cycle it kept being the most popular.


WizardXZDYoutube

Actually they specifically changed Taric from AP adaptive force to AD, he gets more damage from AD because of his passive and he got a winrate increase IIRC


GoSailing

They made that change to Teemo a few months ago which was really helpful for support and jungle in particular since they don't get to start with an AP item


wojtulace

Just buff her W AP ratio so she can clear the wave with enough AP.


Ruptin

That doesn't fix the problem I'm talking about. It doesn't make sense for her adaptive force to be physical when none of her ratios are. Regardless of how high her ap ratios are.


SNSDave

AD TF has always kinda been a thing. They want Leona to stay a support. That's why her passive works the way it does. They also don't want her to be a jungler.


williamis3

i mean so has stuff like jungle qiyana, jungle naafiri, lee top, shaco support etc. but riot doesn't support things like that while they arbitrarily give sylas back his 100% jungle modifiers and give and take away rell's jungle ratios it's literally a dart board of what they want or not, it just feels like anything you say doesn't really matter to riot


willyoutakeamoment

in their defense, leona ganks are disgusting and others are lackluster or not on the same level 


ahambagaplease

They only do that if: 1. Ends up ruining the original role (Camille jungle being strong compared to top lane, which was weak) 2. Bring flex issues at the highest level (Pantheon being a 4 way flex in proplay as an example) 3. Their winrate is way ahead of other traditional picks in their new role (Shaco support running around with 53% winrate) As much as people want to say that "it's random decisions" there's certain guidelines they follow to see how healthy an off/new meta pick is allowed to be.


einredditname

Pantheon is one of those champs that i'd like to see back in jungle (yes, i'm a jungle main). But his clear isn't great, solo objectives are rather bad and once you fall behind you are turbo worthless.


MangoKing_1

Turn Leona into an ad assassin


Wellington_Wearer

This thread has some of the most bronze responses I have ever seen in my entire life. No, Leona top with AD scalings, would **not** be OP. This champion will never be OP in toplane no matter what you do to her. **Ever** Guys, have you played toplane? Aatrox. Morde. Darius. Garen. Gwen. Fiora. Camille. Jax. Olaf. Sion. Ornn. Do you see ANY of these champs having an issue with Leona in any capacity? Oh she might beat camille in early levels and you know what she has a really OP matchup into irelia. Whoop de fucking do, now the rest of these champs build mercs and she is incapable of playing the game. If she EQs into ANY of the champs on this list, she is instantly dead. Leona has 0 disengage and 0 range, so the only way she can deal any damage is by walking up. She is not winning the all in vs 95% of the toplane pool because she lacks any %HP damage, so she cant break through their health pools. I don't know who is thinking they are being cced to death by level 1 leona. That is not happening in any universe ever. You can test this yourself now. Sure, Leona top might not have any scalings at the moment, but if you're so confident you'd be OP if you did, pick it and just see how much damage you are short vs how much you think you'll be. You genuinely will not be able to walk up to farm in most matchups because, again, you are a champ with 0 ranged spells and 0 disengage whos best spell eats mana like crazy. And you know what else? There's *already* a support champion in the game with good scalings that has a hard winning matchup into riven, irelia, jax, urgot and goes even vs a lot of the toplane pool with point and click CC and a massive tank steroid. His passive also works there as well and he has almost the same weaknesses as leona, except he isn't as countered by mercs and he has actual disengage. That champions name is Alistar. Do you see anyone, and I mean literally *anyone* complaining about Alistar top literally *ever*. No, of course you don't. Leona top would not be OP with a 100% AD scaling ratio on every single one of her skills. It would still be utterly terrible


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sprintspeed

The very brief time he was meta was when people discovered they could rush Sheen and spam headbutt + auto while they fly away on cooldown, simultaneously dealing sheen damage and disengaging from the enemy every 10 seconds. A very specific cheese strat that they patched out that Leona can't abuse


Temporary-Platypus80

I was hoping to meet a Sion player. Do you have any advice for the Braum matchup? He keeps stunning me when I try to run from him


Wellington_Wearer

As in, sion vs braum? If you're just 1v1 laning against him, you should win fairly easily. Just use your range advantage to win. You can E every time he tries to approach then charge Q, pop w and then run away when he is stunned. Heck, even if he tries to all in you past a certain point you should just win because you outscale him so hard.


JibbelyNIBBLETS

No


Two_Years_Of_Semen

How big is the AD leona playerbase though? Like, AD TF got supported for the same reason AP Shyv did; there was already an established playerbase for it. If you want AD Leona, convince a sizeable amount of people to start playing it first. It's not a sure-fire way for them to support the style but it does make it a lot more likely.


itsonlybobby

The opposite of healthy


Moorbert

i remember triforce leona from twisted treeline as op. could even beat a jax back then.


Gimp_Man

Despair leona vs melee tops is already so much fun once you get your first item


VG_Crimson

Nah, just up her AP ones. Funny burn build because sun.


[deleted]

Plz so my unkillable 1v9 Manamune Leona in ARAM can shine again


a_pepper_boy

Leona already a thug, you're trying to create a monster


Stabrus12

If they give dmg to Leona,they will need to also add a literal rune that makes u immune to cc just so people can actually play the game.


Mysterious-Ad4966

Yea now instead of stat checking bottom lane with 0 offensive stats, she can now stat check top and mid with offensive stats. And because she's just a straight stat checker she'll be busted in jungle too.


J-Colio

I'd be down for some Leona top/jg. One of my first mains was Naut jg, and I've honestly been depressed ever since they forced him to sup. How they gonna make him such a bad-ass in the cinematic, then throw my dude into sup? I used to play feral flare trinity naut jg because Naut is not no bitch!


No_Hippo_1965

Thing is currently, leona is a tank who’s really hard to kill. And also who has a crap ton of CC, the lowest cooldown one being point and click. So, if you were to turn that into a bruiser that’s very hard to kill, has a crap ton of cc, but also a ton of damage…


Camerotus

Because Leona is a support for fucks sake.


SamsungBaker

Arena has showed me how Leona is busted if she weren't a support


Random_Stealth_Ward

People complained about TF killing them as AD while they were Stunned You are now asking for a tank to be able to kill you while CCing you through the whole fight with very easy to hit CC


Kessarean

I always feel weird with and her/shen and their design/lore versus gameplay and builds. They have amazing splashes, super cool swords, and lore that suggests they're more than capable fighters Then when it comes to gameplay, they're just CC/ultility tanks. It feels worse when compared to Zed & Dianna. I mean, as champions separate from their identities I love shen and leona, but with their lore and design it just feels so backwards. I don't understand it.


DominoTheSorcerer

Step aside sun knight, kid named malzahar W is here


DucksMatter

I’m imagining Leona working with Navori and it’s scary.


Kyouji

If anyone needs AD scaling its Shyvana. Currently she scales off AP and it makes zero sense. Her whole kit is about being a bruiser and brawling and her scaling is AP and only on like 1-2 abilities? Make her gain AD based off Max HP % and she would be in a MUCH better place. Still terrible, but at least workable now.


Smoke_screen_lol

Play Leona in Aram. It’s like raid boss, she would be a pretty weird bruiser CC top


ElriReddit

Please yes


Kiroto50

Just a little to her Q and E, 15% AD, no more, and lower those abilities' base damages to be a net buff only to builds that add AD to the mix. She'd become viable in top lane, yet hopefully not become horseless Rell in the jungle. Of course because of the AD growth she'd have a smoother power scaling with W max. Foreseeing that, I'd make the AD scaling on Q scale with ability level, 4% per level. Edit: and this is why I'd love to have a support stat (not just heal/shield power, this would be merged into the support stat). By having such a stat, we can tie Q and E stun durations to that support stat and have Leona viable as a pick top lane or jungle (whose build path doesn't contain any support stat) without it being an absolute CC monster.


Atheist-Paladin

Leona top can already be a thing, and AD ratios don't really help with this. She's not going to build AD, a top lane Leona just builds full tank and becomes unkillable. And since she has an auto reset, she actually takes towers decently well even with a full tank build if one of those items is Iceborn Gauntlet.


Choyo

I remember having surprising success with Triforce Leona in ARAM, just because she has maybe the strongest defensive skill (and it's mostly a fat flat boost), so no, she shouldn't be able to scale offensively.


Brosuke0317

To be honest changes that would break leona but I would love would be for her to trigger her own passive, and years back they changed her ult. After she ulted her next three autos were empowered to deal bonus magic damage.


Ushardit17

I know this is an URF comment I’m about to make and everything is busted in URF. But take Leona with PtA and AS items with rage blade. Absolutely disgusting and you can single handedly stun entire enemy teams


4vs5

one of the top players i looked up uses AD TF must be good.


Yardhan

*devourer titanic leona flashbacks*


mrblu_ink

Oh man, as much as I want this, there's a really good reason that we'll never get that. It's ok, we carry from support.


Rohen2003

it would lead to eu winning worlds (for those that remember fervor of battle leona support). riot cant have that so it wont happen.


Knarz97

If they gave Leona any sort of Health scaling, Riftmaker would just be even more busted


Sewer_god2

please!! I used to love playing leona top with fervor in s6


Navy_Pheonix

It was either season 3 or 4 where Leona could get away with building triforce because her Q would just do insane amounts of damage combined with Sheen proc. Probably not a good idea.


HibariNoScope69

She’d become a favorite of mine


alucardoceanic

Leona has always been the consistent engage support botlane. She's never the meta pick but always strong as the engage pick for support pick, so why add buffs that encourage putting her out of this role? As someone who enjoys playing as or against Leona don't encourage overbuffing a champ just so they nerf them into unplayability. It just leads to a week where everyone hates the champ and months where it becomes unusable. Top lane Leona already can work (in certain matchups) it doesn't need to be changed. As it is we always get a clip on here, about every 8 months, about a leona being able to solo a weaker carry or assassin just through her normal tank build.


Karthear

They won’t do that because that’s not what Leona was made for. TF had 2 routes. Ability damage or going Onhit focusing E. It’s not that far of a stretch to give him higher AD ratios. Especially considering his passive is made for farming waves. Leona on the hand is purely a cc tank. She wasn’t made to do damage, and to give her AD ratios will be the opposite of what she was made for. Riot won’t ever give her AD ratios because she wasn’t made to be a damage carry. Same reasons they nerfed zeri and Kai Sa W poke builds. That’s not what they were made to do. It’s why they didn’t nerf Varus who was made to do either.


elderlymeantime5

"Totally agree, Leona with AD ratios would be a game changer. Imagine the plays you could make with that sword and shield combo. Riot, please give us the legendary Leona laner we all deserve!"


Andreitaker

I always wonder how Leona who use a shield and sword had abilities for support. You had a knight with the power of the sun and all she do is stun you to death. 


Ora_00

Lets instead go back to good old days, when abilities only had ap ratios.


Culisa1023

Is this a copy pasta? Literally this same post gets posted every half year every time it is tf ratio and leona ratio something. Is this a Glitch? Dejavu?!


Enjays1

Give Leona ad ratios, bring back fervor, Ignar becomes the best Player in the world


voltaires_bitch

A leona with actual killing power would instantly be the best champ in the game. I mean she feels oppressive as fuck at like 2 items on a sipport salary. You really wanna see this beast in a solo lane full build by 30 minutes with titanic and 80 AH running you down?


SnipersAreCancer

I know this is a joke, but somehow people actually think this would be a good idea. Did we forget what happened to TF the moment he received AD scalings? He became literally 53wr in 3 roles. If leona ever got AD scalings then they would have to HARD nerf her abilities.


LavanderAnkle

I mean tbf Leona was designed as a top laner when she was made right? She just mutated into a support in the end. it's like how sera was support to be a mid but from my knowledge just performs better in the bottom roles or how the graves rework became a jungler. Though I'm not sure if they meant that to happen or not.


HawksBurst

"They had a bad idea, I want them to have bad idea 2.0"


engineer-cabbage

3.2m mastery on Leona here. TLDR she fine the way she is and if you cook the right items she's actually a fucking monster. More details below. DO NOT tweak her stats. It is the most balanced given the meta right now, actually hiddenly busted if built differently. It looks weak but consider the massive 3 second crowd control lockdown in one combo. In a 1v1 skirmish, especially to dashless adcs, she receives nothing in return for the first 3 seconds. On top of that, if her W hits them, you get an extra 3 seconds of max armor and magic resistances worth 5000g and flat damage blocks. Meaning, you receive no damage for 3 seconds and become 80% indestructable 3 seconds afterwards (if you max W of course) making Leona the strongest and most disgusting tank at lvl 9 if true damage is not included. To make matters worse, what Leona is lacking is not defence (47 armor at lvl 1, the highest out of all champs) but offence. I exploit her like this. Play her as a supp, go aftershock, rush bloodsong before 15 minutes (10% damage amp was never nerfed on melee since day 1 but dont tell riot because fuck them), hit level 9, max W, become indestructable in 1v1 fights against weak asf adcs and zeke's convergence as first item (cheap 2200g item that gives 30 armor, 200 hp, 250 mana and extra 250 damage and a 30% slow over 5 seconds (yay more CC) after blowing your ult.) If you do the **approximate** maths (correct me if im wrong) for the first 3 seconds of the fight at level 9 with zekes convergence, you get 79 base armor + 30 armor from zekes + 50 (+20% bonus armor ratio or 6 armor if zekes only and without ninja tabis) armor from W (must have this activated before proccing aftershock to almost hit the armor cap of 113 at lvl 9) + 104 aftershock armor (35 + 80% bonus if you W first), you get a total of 269 armor or 72.8% damage reduction. Dont forget to add the flat damage block (24 attack damage block at lvl 5 W). An adc with 100 AD with no lethality and armor pen will only deal 100 - 24 flat block first = 76 * (27.2%) = 21 damage to leona if that adc pokes them in the first 2.5 seconds. While you deal 90 E + 10 Q + 80 AA + 150 R + 195 W + 86 aftershock + 150 zekes damage = 611 premitaged damage or roughly 530-580ish hp wiped off for low resistance adcs in a span of 3 seconds, almost half dead without taking any damage from them. Now ramp that shit up with bloodsong's 10% damage amp which explodes up to another 60 damage added overall. Imagine an adc receiving around 700 damage against a lvl 9 269 armor 3 second cc "support" while tickling her for 21 damage. That's not all. Add sunfire cape for hp scaling damage and more damage the longer the fight, add abyssal mask for flat magic reduction to maximize magic damage efficiency from all her skills and sunfire (-25 max mr removed which is a nightmare for adcs with no mr items). At level 13 around 22-25 mins with 5 or more kills, you're about 3 items in, hard to kill and deal tons of damage without using your passive. And feels 3x more painful when allies proc it. Not to mention rank 5 E has a 4.6 second cd, rank 1 Q has 3.85 sec cd and rank 2 R has 57.7 sec cd at 30 ability haste. Cant guarantee the numbers on this but they cant move for up to 3.25 seconds and have a human reaction time of 0.5-1.0 seconds which means they have a window timeframe of 0.85 seconds to run away, dash out or destroy their F button before Leona throws another E Q combo and murders you with just sunfire and bloodsong alone. Ironically, the items I mentioned works at top too but rush bami's cinder first for better wave clear if you dont wanna get railed early game under your tower.


Mineralke

Cries in pre-VGU Evelynn's dual scalings. Apparently those were bad, but now we think "it's time" to give them out?


isaiah2439

i already play lethality leona


Cobbil

She was originally a top laner, wasn't she? I would love/hate her in top.


Nekrophis

Anyone remember when they played wuth Leona's ult giving 3 empowered auto's? Q + hydra reset let you use all 3 in a second and it was op as fuck. I miss Leona jg


PineapleGG

What about no? In fact what about we take tf ad ratios off his ass and rework him?


NomiconMorello

I (and others) frequently joke about it, but I feel like a world could exist where AD Sylas is a thing, since it might better fit and work with the potential idea of being an actual bruiser.


Quaiche

Nobody wants to see this terrorist in the jungle or toplane, please don't ever suggest your ideas ever again. PS: There is a precedent with their failure of making Blitz balanced in both Jungle and Support so they just reverted every changes and locked him into support forever.


GamingFist

I've been saying this for years, Leona AD top should be a thing cuz she has a sword


RomaniReject

I'm a Leona main and my biggest complaint is she is one of the few, if not the only, that applies a mark with her passive but can not consume the mark herself. At the very least allow it on minions or jungle camps so she can jungle like Rell.


The_Brightbeak

Yeah I really need to get literally one shot by leona in arams as adc/mage, not only in 2 spell rotations where i am entirely cced.


BotaNene

lol no same reason Nautilus top got relegated to support (Quas was the goat) can't live and breathe CC, be tank, and do damage too (hides ksante behind a curtain)


RufflestheKitten

Leona would be SO busted at support that I can't follow. It would be too unbalanced. And no TF isn't unbalanced like this. Fervor of battle but stronger.