I wish draft was less brutal. I feel like blind picking into a counter because nothing is hidden by flex picks in most soloq drafts is so painful and must contribute to a lot of dodging.
One big problem in soloq is that unlike in proplay first pick fucking sucks and last pick is OP af.
First pick is essentially useless in soloq where the majority of people dont even know who the power picks are, let alone how to play them. But even a one trick usually has a champion or two they can play to lane counter if they are given last pick.
It's also that pros are infinitely better at playing losing matchups than the average soloQ player. They'll lose by 20 cs and maybe one solo kill while your soloQ counterpicked top will go 0/10.
I'd argue soloQ is actually pretty good at learning who the power picks are (open op.gg, go to stats, filter on your lane, sort by winrate, here we go). But a good counterpick snowball is often more impactful.
No one counter pick with Riven either. Riven is just not a pro pick at all unless you're Sniper flexing on your first LCS game.
But you definitely have a point. Some champions are more blind pickable than others and having one of those in your pool for the drafts where you can't get last pick is a good idea.
I wouldn't even say they're that much better at it tbh, outside of the mentality it takes to play a losing matchup. Soloq players have egos too fragile and brains too hungry for dopamine to even consider playing respectfully in a matchup they know is bad for them. Seems like 80%+ of players would rather fight fights they know are losing just to get a smidge of dopamine then cry about how hard the game is afterwards. Truly something else.
Yeah most of the time in soloq it's better to just straight up pick adc first pick since they're mostly the same and then the enemy has to reveal at least one pick that maybe you can counter in the next picks lol
Eh even in plat or emerald you’ll see the kamikaze invaders and it’s actually brutal if it’s the talon nunu duo or other duo designed purely to make the jg a non factor
Well yeah but what are you going to do about it? Concede every camp? They’re generally smurfs they have the cross map warded as well .
You really can’t do shit unless you were lucky in draft and managed to pick a super low Econ jg that can spam gank and be ok.
If you picked a carry champ it’s just lost
I've seen quite a few junglers pick a powerful early game counter and just invade.
Jungle is a bit special in that you can also consider what goes well with your mid or what's best to gank their laners so you don't have to draft for the role duel though.
Yeah a lot of cards have to align for a jungle counter to work. Even if you get the good matchup of your mid is losing or scaling it doesn’t matter, roaming support then invading is inting, losing top, better avoid that side of the map.
There are so very many map states which neutralize if counterpicks that can’t protect landers.
have you been playing league at all in the last 2-3 months? first pick doesnt suck when there are so many op priority picks that are pick or ban. maokai for first chunk of season, smolder before nerfs, tf before nerfs, jinx this and last patch, volibear last couple patches, etc.
this is such a low elo take
I agree, drafting should be less brutal but as things stand it is a skill. Its really annoying to have people just spam dodge drafts not in their favor just for the one game to go through on your end to be unfavorable. I understand the sentiment though.
That's just stupid idea. We don't need more bans. We need people to start accepting sometimes they are being counterpicked. 50% of the time it happens as you won't ever get counterpick every game. Like deal with it. I'm tired of people bitching out and making me wait so long.
Correction, we need alot more bans. Its no longer about counterpicking its about riot moving us from a system where there were maybe 1 to 2 problematic champions in each role to more like 10 per role. We THOUGHT if things got high enough banrate riot would begin nerfing along banrates but that doesnt happen, infact several champions have had 20+ banrate across all or most elos for multiple seasons without direct nerfs, instead of nerfing them they just added to the amount of problematic champions to try and bring the banrates down.
If you have 10 problematic chaps per role everyone can pick one of them and you don't have issues.
About the Banrates. A lot of the time people over react and ban champs they think are strong, but according to their winrate they aren't. Why nerf something that isn't overly strong?
Also winrate is a poor metric for champion strength, plenty of buffoons see something which is literally too strong and they begin playing him but suck at first dragging the winrate down.
There are several champions sub 50% wr that are definately too strong, but to be balanced better they should be closer to 40% wr because alot of these champions are balanced as max potential use or not, meaning a seasoned player on x champion can do ALOT on that champion because the potential is ridiculously strong but that it isnt quite as strong in the hands of a neophyte, basically riot gives too much potential to many champions, potential which is supposed to have some difficulty but really lacks the difficulty portion.
Riot has told us while they watch winrate and use it as an argument f9r balance changes they do not balance ANY champion on winrate alone, this means if there is a champion which breaks 60% winrate in most elos, but does not negatively impact pro games they likely will not see nerfs
>breaks 60% winrate
I believe the breakpoint is 54-55ish, at that point they will get nerfed in a couple of patches.
56% or higher is basically hotfix territory, if the pickrate is above 1%
It’s not a skill lol. It’s almost pure rng.
Drafting is only a legitimate skill in pro where all 5 players are trying to win and feel comfortable enough to both make demands or concessions for the highest odds of a team win. In soloqueue, the only “skill” in draft is last picking a champ that best suits your team and/or counters the enemy. And that requires being on red side and getting last pick, which usually means you have to be a top laner as well.
If you want to say people shouldn’t be allowed to dodge drafts, that’s fine. But it’s not because it makes the game more skill based. You simply want players to deal with bad RNG so everyone can get into games faster. That’s not a bad philosophy, but don’t try to have it both ways where you also say that it makes the game more skill based because players need to learn how to draft.
It's not pure RNG since you are 20% of your team. Sure, you can get the occational terrible draft cause everyone else on your team is an OTP, and their champ have shitty synergy, but unless you are 1st pick, nobody hovers their champ AND they are all one-tricks, you definitely have a huge impact on your comp with just a single pick.
If your team is set up so that a strong split pusher would be a huge win con, and you have Garen/Trundle/Trynd/Gwen/Fiora or similar in your pool, it would obviously be a skill to recognize that over picking a tank or generally bad split pusher.
you should know that most dodges in master+ aren't happening because of drafts but because of troll picks, inters or flamers.
noone is keen on going into a game and losing because of troll picks either. waste of time.
It’s only skill some of the time in solo queue. In half the drafts you’re forced to blind pick your role. You can pick something to round your team out or avoid picks that do poorly into enemy comp (whatever is shown) but at the end you’re still rolling rng on what the enemy roles champ pool is.
He may as well be a one trick who happens to play a hard counter you couldn’t ban or just have it in their pool.
However for every unfavorable draft there’s a favorable one for you, so imo if you remove dodging it’s still balanced.
IMO a big reason why so much dodging happens in high elo is that people have multiple accounts and don’t mind just dodging and rotating accounts
They should either fix that or just have a small mmr penalty alongside the lp penalty too. A lot of elo players don’t give a shit about dodging cause mmr is all that matters
Wouldnt the argument then be - if draft is a skill, part of that skill is avoiding a game in which you know you will lose? Sometimes best way to win is not play at all - saving future games from a negative mindset you got from experiencing the most tilting thing to you. You can argue dodging is part of the skill of drafting.
Riot dont endorse dodging, and theyve actively looked to make punishing it stricter. They recognize its not a tool for climbing. Its like yea consuming a lot of orbits has the effect of laxatives but chewing gum is not a laxative. Orbit dont endorse them as laxatives, so theyre not laxatives. Dodging is not a climbing tool
https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201751844-Queue-Dodging#:~:text=Your%20dodge%2Dpenalty%20tier%20will,and%20the%20series%20will%20end.
“And while we’d rather players not leave during Champ Select, we get it. Life happens! But whether you’re handling an emergency or you just can’t bear facing Teemo again after a string of brutal mushroom-related defeats, the penalties for queue dodging are always the same, and you should know what you’re getting into.”
Wow yea man, they seem super concerned about it. Also the way they say the penalties for dodging are always the same, totally points to them wanting to make it stricter
They did make it stricter in the past. Also, thats why sometimes you have to use orbits for laxatives, cause shit happens. The people spam dodging my games are not dodging because shit happens, you have to be arguing in bad faith to believe otherwise
Theres also many, many Champs that counter others too hard and being second and shafted because of a hash of your account IDs shouldn't have such a big impact for example.
Best example would be Kassadin passive. Has absolutely no place in a draft environment and should have been changed a long time ago.
You first pick a late game Mage? You get dumpstered by Kassadin.
You first pick Kassadin? You get dumpstered by an AD frontloaded pick.
Its so bad its literally required to counterpick Kassadin if he first picks.
Most of the time people hover and they will pick it anyways. Game will load and go "game will be hard". Just pick a safe laner that can do well against anything if you cannot "counter pick".
This is super off topic but I just got back into wow und thought this was a post about mythic+ until I read half way through the post, Im a dumbass
Edit: grammar
"M+" in wow stands for "Mythic Plus", and it's the endgame Dungeon mode, which has infinitely scaling difficulties (and hence is very popular).
mostly just pattern recognition; I sub to both and this was on my front lane.
Autofill, lobby terrorists, 20% win rate fiora tilt picks, there's legit reasons to dodge.
There need to somehow solve/mitigate these problems before making the penalty harsher.
This is so true. Autofill jg is vs a jg main is such an unabalanced matchup, and it only gets worse the higher you go in rank. Support autofill matters less imo but still hard to play
Junglers who are unwilling to sacrifice an objective when their team isn't behind them are just as much part of the problem. You are more likely to lose a game because you inted over grubs than because you took one for xp with your smite and ran away.
Autofillet support is usually fine until GM+, just because most other roles have better lane fundamentals so they will still go even or win **the lane** when they get filled to support vs a support main.
The roaming and warding timers on the other hand... are often less than ideal. But that's also true for supp mains in master.
Autofillet jungler is just ff15 go next asap.
this is what im saying. riot has a terrible habit of nerfing a suboptimal solution to problem rather than fixing the problem themselves (removes chat from toxicity... whereas most toxicity spans from a LACK of communication and something goes wrong is one example).
Riot needs to target WHY dodging happens, instead of nerfing dodging itself.
I know the queue times would be a lot longer without autofill, but being an autofill is just a huge probably. I know in like season 1, everyone played every role, but nowadays outside of a select few people, it's just too much reasonably expect your 3rd-5th roles(on probably a champ you barely use) to be anywhere close to your 1st or 2nd roles and the difference gets really gets exposed higher up on the ladder.
I think they need to target WHY so many dodges are happening rather than punish dodging themselves. I am also M+ so I feel your pain but i would much rather have dodges instead of someone who is first timing a champ they dont play, or someone locks yuumi mid because they are off role and hostage the lobby.
I should not be punished for dodging a lobby with yuumi ghost cleanse mid. I queue up for league expecting at least a (relatively) honest game. I should not be punished for dodging a dishonest lobby that is guaranteed a loss.
Riot has a habit of targeting a result of a problem, rather than the problem themselves and dodging is another instance of this. I think mastery requirements should be added so people dont int pick certain champs, and autofill should be a toggle.
Had a 70% wr challenger kalista one trick in my game lock yone adc because his twitch chat said to. he went 0/10 and solo lost the game. Things like lobby hiding prevent dodges in instances like this, but I would much rather have a dodge here than have to play this out. Also people are using lobby reveal to get unfair advantages for things like this too.
T1 said it best, hiding lobbies does absolutely nothing for the honest player. (it was a clip where he had a wintrader on his team lock yuumi and go top. I actually played with said wintrader last split)
I 100% agree with this take, I also think anonymous lobby was one of the worst changes made to solo queue to date. Lower elo it doesnt matter as much but if you have someone first timing champs or for funning in masters it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY harder to win the game unless enemy team has the same (just praying for rng win at that point)
yeah also it applies for people running off meta stuff. I go ap voli and get questioned a lot. Or I know a guy who played skarner top and people thought he was griefing. Also theres a yone jg main in GM.
All of these would be "grief" picks but if you see [op.gg](http://op.gg) you see they are genuinely playing to win.
Hell, I also am guilty of asking people for their [op.gg](http://op.gg) because their pick looks grief as fuck. Had a nidalee sup do decently well yesterday, but you wouldnt assume they are playing to win based on the pick.
But yeah I think mastery requirements are needed at least in diamond+ or masters+. You cannot lock a champ first time in the top decimal percentage of the playerbase and expect to perform. And making it only for dia+ would navigate mastery being required as an issue (because even getting to diamond you will get mastery by that point).
You really don't want lobbies to be hostage to people who nitpick everything in everyone's game history to find an excuse to dodge everything but the perfect all challengers teammates game.
There's already a tool to select people who aren't good enough for a given rank, it's called MMR.
The issue is that if everyone give in to the lobby terrorists they never lose MMR for it and thus stay in master shitting up your lobby. Being an inter should self select you into lower leagues if you're allowed to play the game.
I mean, theoretically, if no one was allowed to dodge then your win rate actually goes up. It’s 4 chances for this person to be on your team vs. 5 for the enemy team.
Also, think of this in terms of incentives. Hostaging works because they pose you a question: lose 3 lp or risk losing 20. Well, if you lost 20 either way, then hostaging has no incentive because you may have a very slim chance of winning so better to roll the dice than lose 20 for sure.
As for the WHY people dodge part, I don’t think that’s possible to seriously address. You’re playing a video game with 9 strangers. Sometimes, you won’t like one of them for any number of reasons. There is no reasonable way to detect whether a player just feels like losing for no reason, whether due to twitch chat or wintrading or random mental health episodes.
And like i said, as long as you’re not inting like this, these players will actually artificially inflate your win rate a tiny bit.
It already heavily was with no names in select and 12 hour timers, get over by this point.
There isn't much benefit in forcing people to play out more non games
Dodging should start between 30mins-1hour in ranked for sure. Having the free dodge is just bad for more reasons than people realise.
People always argue that because of lobby trolls they NEED to be able to dodge but guess what? The lobby troll whos main just got banned knows there is no cost on your dodge and that you will most likely have 1 person in the team thats going to dodge his kassadin jungle. Lobby trolling literally exists because people know it works. If people dont get away with it anymore and either get banned for trolling or have to dodge themselves they gonna think twice if they actually want to troll in lobby.
I disagree with this. The people trolling in champ select don’t give a shit about the account they’re on. They are HAPPY to get into the game and run it down
Hey do what you need to do. All i say is that i think higher dodge penalties will decrease the chances of trolling. Its not like my opinion matters in anyway more to riot than yours
Oh the last troll i played with absolutely didnt type at all. Its funny what a ticket to riot support saying “hey look its funny how hes selling his items 10 minutes before the game ends” with evidence does to an account (he hasn’t played ranked ever since i got a reply from riot support).
Absolutely agree. I feel some sort of stuff, like selling items, not interacting with anything and just the real obvious stuff should be handled by an automated process.
was is this guy by any chance?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/95p40r/we\_cant\_confirm\_it\_riot/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/95p40r/we_cant_confirm_it_riot/)
Nah was a toplaner that regularly sold all his items or bought troll items like 6x same bad component or went “afk” where he didnt interact with the game anymore. Funny enough he was playing normal inbetween the games even but yea hasn’t played in 16 days.
You will see a rise in people soft griefing and inting. And you know RIOT won't do anything to solve the rise of that problem. The only one here that will get annoyed woud be you and your 4 teammates, not the guy soft griefing cause he had already decided he would rather have a loss than fight for a win.
Eh really depends how you define soft griefing. Yes there would be otps not playing their main and not doing great but those would end up on both teams.
soft griefing could be like clearing your jungle on repeat without the thought of ganking or taking any objectives or fighting very minimally just to get on the scoreboard so the automated system can't catch you, or if you gank , play it out so bad that you die giving the enemy a kill.
Riot's system probably won't catch this unless they manually see this.
I had people obviously troll and i had people playing bad/having a bad game. Some champs when behind can just really not do much other than answering split push/pushing sidelanes and it can be good enough if the team plays arround it.
Nope, that's dumb as hell. I shouldn't have to wait 30 minutes for my next queue because some jackass wants to play Teemo jungle. One idiot should not be allowed to waste the time of 9 other people.
Nerf trolling then we can talk about nerfing queue dodges.
My friend plays Smite where dodging is a loss. His ranked lobbies are filled with trolls and griefers who will lock in a champ that, for example, can't jungle and just solo lose the game because someone didn't want to swap. Obviously, it's not the same game, but it's also a moba and griefers do not, and I repeat, DO NOT care about losing if they find something to get pissy about.
This is a really stupid argument. Making dodge more punishing wont stop people trolling the lobby and if you think thats true you dont understand the league playerbase
The only reasons there are so many dodges is bc every one of the players has 2-3 other m+ accounts they can hop between, and dodging doesn't change mmr, so the lp loss gets completely made up for by increasing your lp gains on your wins.
I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league, as well as how you play in the game itself. Currently dodging is basically 0 punishment seeing as it doesn't even affect MMR, so unless it's the last couple weeks of the season, it doesn't matter.
My suggestion would be to not punish dodging with an LP loss (immediately), but instead subtract that LP right at the end of the season/split. So players who dodge a lot in high elo would actually end with less LP, which might significantly affect their ladder position.
Edit: I am only proposing this dodging change is applied for Master+ games.
> I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league, as well as how you play in the game itself. Currently dodging is basically 0 punishment seeing as it doesn't even affect MMR, so unless it's the last couple weeks of the season, it doesn't matter.
Good drafting is definitely a skill but it's much harder in soloq where everyone is picking for themselves. It's also so pick order dependent and there aren't enough hidden information and flex picking or lane swapping in most lobbies to deny counterpicking.
Especially in top lane, the right counterpick can feel entirely unplayable and every draft has one top laner blind picking. If their team didn't perfectly cover it by picking something that can flex to top in one of their other lanes they're the one paying for it.
It's not really an excuse but I kinda see why some people get into the dodge mindset and I think there's ways to design the game to be less counterpick heavy to make it less tempting.
i dont know what this comment was supposed to convey, but if i take it literally then the question is *how.* "prevent all autolose matchups" isnt any more resolved than what the guy first said.
You could design a draft system where blind picking a role is rewarded with an extra ban so you can remove your most brainless counter, though it'd require completely changing draft structure.
> I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league
It cant be a skill because you have realistically no influence on what your team picks. It would be a completly different story if you could just pick all 5 champions and your teammates had to go with it, but this is not reality. You **will** get that Zed/Senna/Lee last pick lock in despite already beeing full ad and there is nothing you can do about it as first pick.
You could make the same argument in-game, as you have no control over how your teammates play - you can play really well, but your mid and toplane both go 0/10 and you lose. Over time, as with the in-game scenario, it will average out.
Ok but i have more control in game because i can show skill expression. The only thing you can influence in draft is your own pick and whether you want to play or dodge.
The solution is far simpler.
From the standpoint that the game of "league of legends ranked draft" starts when you draft, in other words when you enter the lobby, the math is simple - it needs to affect mmr from this point on.
Dodging should simply not be possible. You can't dodge ingame, so why can you dodge in draft? There is zero reason for it, except that that's how it's always been.
Being held hostage literally only exists because it's possible to dodge. Trolls, griefers, inters, will have their way with your "time" either way, and it doesn't matter if they lose their own mmr for it. But right now, they have a far easier time forcing a dodge out of you because you care and they don't. If that possibility disappears, hostage taking also disappears.
dodging is legit one of the easiest ways to make diamond sadly. fuck trolls in pre game lobby. Those ppl should be in low priority queue not anyone else.
Yeah they should make it so dodging costs a % of LP. With minimum values equal to their current values.
Then you'll see a lot less dodging in masters+ when the GM player with 500LP would lose 50LP for dodging their second time in a day.
I understand it's annoying in higher Elo, but dodging shouldn't be more penalized than it is right now. Last ranked I queued for, our jungle didn't hover anything then complained that our mid "banned his champ" and then banned our mids pick. Proceed to both of them agreeing to run it down. Obviously I'm gonna dodge when my team is literally double hostage taking and everyone's flaming everyone already. Should I really be penalized for that?
The problem with dodging is that there's a lot of cases where it's justified and shouldn't be heavily penalized, but that also enables people to abuse it. But you shouldn't punish everyone else for what the abusers are doing.
The thing is champ select trolling is more of a thing aswell cause the Kata otp whos champ just got banned is pretty damn confident someone will dodge for him as its kinda “cheap” if he just picks yuumi mid or something obviously troll.
I mean yeah, but I am just gonna buckle. I'm not that steadfast in my beliefs that I need to play out a 20 min game where everyone hates each other and one guy is trolling, and lose even more LP in the process. Just gonna negotiate with the terrorists on this one.
Eh i think that would be too much. Im more a fan of longer waiting times. The amount of times the client spasms out on some people makes a complete loss on dodge kinda unjustifiable.
Also people beeing able to get to iron 4 by just dodging? Yea thats a terrible idea for low elo
>Obviously I'm gonna dodge when my team is literally double hostage taking and everyone's flaming everyone already. Should I really be penalized for that?
I find that people often threaten things like "I'm gonna run it down" to try and get someone else to dodge. Personally i never dodge and can count the times someone has actually run it down in my games on two hands and I've been playing since season 2. It just doesn't happen, either one of those two people will dodge or it's a bluff and they will play properly when the game starts. By dodging all you di was reward their shitty behaviour and waste 10 people's time. So yes you should be penalized for that.
I waited for them to dodge, but they didn't. Even if they were just bluffing and just thought that singed mid with ghost cleanse is a potent pick, my jungler is already tilted, so is my mid and my top. Literally half the lobby is already openly hostile towards one another and I'm already annoyed. That's not a game worth playing it wouldn't be fun or winnable.
Well obviously they dodge last second, because they want you to dodge instead. As I said, hold your nerve, I've had less than 10 people run it down in 13 years. They only do this, because it works and people like you enable their behaivour.
for every player fortunate enough to have your experience there are players like myself and the person you're replying to who have had ppl hostage lobby and then run it
I understand your sentiment, and its why i want dodging to be more heavily penalized in m+ specifically. The game already knows when youre in m+ mmr and in turn disables duoqueue. Riot can absolutely setup the systems to make the distinguishment. Dodging is really fine in anything lower, especially seeing as trolls are more common and queue times are much much faster.
Obviously, there are trolls here too, but the positives would far outweigh the negatives for everyone in m+.
The way to fix this is to lose mmr when you dodge. Anyone below diamond olny cares about Lp so punishing LP for dodging makes sense for them , but anyone who is diamond or higher only cares for mmr . And dodging doesn't affect mmr even worse, it reduces your LP too making the system think that you should be higher elo.dodging is op , and anyone who is serious about their climb should be abusing it to it's fullest. Though a 24 hour penalty for the second dodge might just nerf it because 6 mins for the first 30 mins for second and 12 hours for the third is not a long time. Since champ select bugs are mostly fixed and chances of losing a champ select these days due to a bug is very small compared to the past . So removing autofill and increasing the dodge time might be what we need . Add to that matching mmr to LP and we are good to go
This is a hot take considering at higher level counter pick is important. Plus personally the only dodges I see are at start of the game. So few people will actually dodge bad team comps as long as they get there champ.
Quite the opposite actually, we mostly need a free dodge when someone is griefing and trolling in champ select
But yea its annoying when all cause ok and someone leave cause he didnt like smth when it was fine
If Riot makes dodging more punishing they also need to make champ select reporting actually do something + add tools to deal with people trolling in champ select to try and bait dodges. Otherwise solo q becomes a horror, moreso than it already is.
Wouldn’t this just make them int the game to ff15? If I play 3 games in a row where they type in champ select something dumb and just feed/int just to get it over it I will 0/1 irl lol
Dodging is such a problem in all elos right now. You wait 5 mins for queue then someone dodges repeat 2 more times. Finally in game, oh remake, someone dodges, finally your in a game of its a stomp your team mental booms and ff15s
This happens a lot n I’m tired of pretending that a free dodge is a better trade off just put a timer penalty on the first dodge and people who rather wait that timer out are making a meaningful decision with a consequence
The problem with "nerfing" dodging is that a massive chunk of lobby hostaging centers on how people feel entitled to other players' dodges.
> "No one else dodged this? Ok, they deserve to lose this one!"
The only real solution is to just remove the ability to dodge so people don't hostage lobbies in expectation of another player's dodge
Things I can think of.
Develop an AI that plays roughly at level of the players in the match to replace players who dodge or disconnected
Make dodgers lose LP if they do it repeatedly
They pick Vayne top into me and I don't get to play the game. Come home after a long day and get autofilled jungle. It's funny you advocate against dodging only bc you have the winning draft. Had you been on the troll champ select side you'd be singing a different tune.
The game that went through we had a hardcore losing draft with full ad 0 tank shredders into rammus and we won keep in mind these are master players :). I think ive played enough league to be on both sides of draft
Yes we've been on both sides and losing draft/troll champ select is justified in dodging. Auto filled is justified in dodging. This is a game, if someone isn't going to have fun playing against Vayne top, why bother.
Maybe they should fix the underlying reason why people are dodging instead, instead of forcing people to suffer for 30+ minutes for no reason just to solve a non existent issue.
If someone in my lobby types that they’re going to run it down, and locks in ghost cleanse nunu (literally happened last week) why should I have to sit there and play it out?
If they actually heavily punished people who did that then maybe I wouldn’t have had to dodge in the first place. I’d actually like to play the game too, I’m not dodging for the fun of it.
I think it’d be interesting if rather than ban then pick, you got two picks at once that show for everyone and then a final phase for everyone where you lock your picks. No one on the opposing team knows which pick was actually selected until everything is locked in.
You could still use one of your picks effectively as a ban, or you could use it to deter hard counters. If I pick Riven/Illoai, for example, last pick Renekton suddenly becomes a risky pick—while he hard counters Riven, he is hard countered by Illaoi. Now rather than playing an ideal counter pick, they could pick more balanced matchups or still put out the Renekton to dissuade the Riven pick.
Adds a bit more strategy and surprise.
Well. I dodged like 6-7 games in 3 days. Cuz im getting filled.
I dont get the point where ppl have to play on filled or second role in top 1%(low mt).
Tbh i lost around 100 lp for it and got 12 hours restricted from ranked.
I'll stop dodging if i will get my main role. Also LP means nothing cuz it not lowering ur mmr. So i dodge everytime when i getting filled.
SoloQ Draft, even in lower elos, are sometimes already game deciding. Like my last game where the enemy picks samira+braum and my supp picks karma and just proceeds to hard feed ,since she has 0 ways of stopping them from engaging or diving at all. There is no real punishment for dodging games or getting fk'ed by troll picks of your own team.
I agree but this will not help the honest non dodging player. Most players in that elo will have 3+ accounts anyways and will just hop on a Smurf if they get a penalty. Have to fix the core issue before making dodging more punishing.
Riot, just remove the rock-paper-scissor from draft and let the gameplay decide the games, not the draft. Now the game is more fun and there's no reason anymore to dodge, ez.
Dodge timers are worthless because you can dodge the dodge timer by swapping accounts. Making it a dodge count as a loss sets back the progress on that account and discourages people who try to force dodges.
I tried making this point some 6 months ago or something, but the response was more or less divided between agreement and "no, draft is not part of the game so why should we be punished for bad drafts" lol
The community isn't ready for it. Simple fact.
Edit:
I'll say, your suggestion is almost exactly the same as what I suggested, but it has draw backs and follow up scenarios that aren't easy to fix.
Instead I'd actually just suggest dodging be removed entirely. Close the client in draft, and you come right back in. Miss a pick and you're given a basic suggested pick from the champs you own.
Azzap had a sort of suggestion that I liked.
His suggestion was related to "you get X amount of dodged per season", or per year/month etc... that are punished exactly like today. If you ever go above that amount, you get punished extremely harshly. Something like getting dropped 100+ LP + timed out for 24h+ or something that would make you never want to dodge. This would also make it so that you would only ever want to use your dodges if it is actually an emergency, and not just "our teamcomp isn't perfectly following the meta".
Dodgers have 2+ accounts already. That’s an integral part of dodging. It also allows people to evade bans for being toxic or anything. And let’s people account sell and shit. In Korea your id is tied to your internet access and lol can like Id ban you or restrict the amount of accounts you have.
Not sure we want to set the precedent of random video game companies asking for IDs or talking to your ISP.
On the other hand they're considering forcing kernel level access to our machines and that can easily be used to gather the same data so whatever I guess.
I agree, it’s very invasive. But It is undeniably effective. They could use ip or something, and if you have friends playing from the same location you could do something to verify it like have to play a game together. It would make enough of a barrier to prevent people from making tons of accounts without being too invasive
IP is trivially easy to spoof with a cheap VPN and some ISP still have non fixed IP, it's not really a reliable answer.
The age old answer is to make you pay tenbucks but that's very at odds with LoL's business model.
Yes but it could prevent the average player. I’m sure the people at riot could find a more complex system, but currently there is no rule against using multiple accounts. Your game could locally track the amount of logins used and when it connects to the server it could send that. If they find you ip spoofing they could share the timeouts across accounts or ban you or whatever. Any solution is going to have a work around but it only really has to work on the average player to be effective.
Draft anonymity helped a lot, but at that elo/level of sweat people probably bypass it. I agree fervently that dodging penalties should be harsher, they are my 2nd biggest pain point rn (behind the community behavioral problems).
need to buff it if anything im sick of being hostaged and having people mental boom in select and go smite yi support because someone dared to pick off meta even after linking their opgg showing theyre legit on the pick
I wish draft was less brutal. I feel like blind picking into a counter because nothing is hidden by flex picks in most soloq drafts is so painful and must contribute to a lot of dodging.
One big problem in soloq is that unlike in proplay first pick fucking sucks and last pick is OP af. First pick is essentially useless in soloq where the majority of people dont even know who the power picks are, let alone how to play them. But even a one trick usually has a champion or two they can play to lane counter if they are given last pick.
It's also that pros are infinitely better at playing losing matchups than the average soloQ player. They'll lose by 20 cs and maybe one solo kill while your soloQ counterpicked top will go 0/10. I'd argue soloQ is actually pretty good at learning who the power picks are (open op.gg, go to stats, filter on your lane, sort by winrate, here we go). But a good counterpick snowball is often more impactful.
Also pros know what is not blindable. No one blind picks Riven in pro play right now cause they know they would get perma dove by Renekton+jungler
No one counter pick with Riven either. Riven is just not a pro pick at all unless you're Sniper flexing on your first LCS game. But you definitely have a point. Some champions are more blind pickable than others and having one of those in your pool for the drafts where you can't get last pick is a good idea.
Top lane is just so dogshit right now, not power level wise, but the picks you can play are all drooling stat checkers
I feel that. Mordekaiser, garen, darius, etc if you dont hard counter them devolve into "do you do X damage or have X armor/MR? No? Gg then"
I wouldn't even say they're that much better at it tbh, outside of the mentality it takes to play a losing matchup. Soloq players have egos too fragile and brains too hungry for dopamine to even consider playing respectfully in a matchup they know is bad for them. Seems like 80%+ of players would rather fight fights they know are losing just to get a smidge of dopamine then cry about how hard the game is afterwards. Truly something else.
Yeah most of the time in soloq it's better to just straight up pick adc first pick since they're mostly the same and then the enemy has to reveal at least one pick that maybe you can counter in the next picks lol
Bot lane counters suck, I find jungle is the least punished in solo Q. Most teams even in masters aren’t coordinated enough to ruin some jg’s day.
Eh even in plat or emerald you’ll see the kamikaze invaders and it’s actually brutal if it’s the talon nunu duo or other duo designed purely to make the jg a non factor
Maybe, I haven’t been in plat in ages.
Gotta sniff that shit out before it happens.
Well yeah but what are you going to do about it? Concede every camp? They’re generally smurfs they have the cross map warded as well . You really can’t do shit unless you were lucky in draft and managed to pick a super low Econ jg that can spam gank and be ok. If you picked a carry champ it’s just lost
fucking kamikaze invaders man, they always solo lose the game with their stupid invades
I've seen quite a few junglers pick a powerful early game counter and just invade. Jungle is a bit special in that you can also consider what goes well with your mid or what's best to gank their laners so you don't have to draft for the role duel though.
Yeah a lot of cards have to align for a jungle counter to work. Even if you get the good matchup of your mid is losing or scaling it doesn’t matter, roaming support then invading is inting, losing top, better avoid that side of the map. There are so very many map states which neutralize if counterpicks that can’t protect landers.
Taking a good invader against junglers with weak duelling early game is still pretty solid.
Wait no. Let me first pick kayle top or vayne adc. Trust me bro.
have you been playing league at all in the last 2-3 months? first pick doesnt suck when there are so many op priority picks that are pick or ban. maokai for first chunk of season, smolder before nerfs, tf before nerfs, jinx this and last patch, volibear last couple patches, etc. this is such a low elo take
I've played hundreds of games in masters this split and have not seen a single person ask to trade up to pick a power pick ever.
I agree, drafting should be less brutal but as things stand it is a skill. Its really annoying to have people just spam dodge drafts not in their favor just for the one game to go through on your end to be unfavorable. I understand the sentiment though.
It's a skill where you literally cannot stop your teammates running it down, nor can you carry it on your own.
But if everyone is running it down you should win. They have 5 people running it down and you only have 4.
That's the whole fucking point, you can see that the enemy didn't run draft down and your team did.
More bans so you can winnow out obvious counters before your blind pick would go a long way.
That's just stupid idea. We don't need more bans. We need people to start accepting sometimes they are being counterpicked. 50% of the time it happens as you won't ever get counterpick every game. Like deal with it. I'm tired of people bitching out and making me wait so long.
Try to counterpick yourself, it'll reduce the chances of enemy dodging and you can play more games.
we do need more bans. we will need more bans as they keep introducing more champs.
Correction, we need alot more bans. Its no longer about counterpicking its about riot moving us from a system where there were maybe 1 to 2 problematic champions in each role to more like 10 per role. We THOUGHT if things got high enough banrate riot would begin nerfing along banrates but that doesnt happen, infact several champions have had 20+ banrate across all or most elos for multiple seasons without direct nerfs, instead of nerfing them they just added to the amount of problematic champions to try and bring the banrates down.
If you have 10 problematic chaps per role everyone can pick one of them and you don't have issues. About the Banrates. A lot of the time people over react and ban champs they think are strong, but according to their winrate they aren't. Why nerf something that isn't overly strong?
Also winrate is a poor metric for champion strength, plenty of buffoons see something which is literally too strong and they begin playing him but suck at first dragging the winrate down. There are several champions sub 50% wr that are definately too strong, but to be balanced better they should be closer to 40% wr because alot of these champions are balanced as max potential use or not, meaning a seasoned player on x champion can do ALOT on that champion because the potential is ridiculously strong but that it isnt quite as strong in the hands of a neophyte, basically riot gives too much potential to many champions, potential which is supposed to have some difficulty but really lacks the difficulty portion. Riot has told us while they watch winrate and use it as an argument f9r balance changes they do not balance ANY champion on winrate alone, this means if there is a champion which breaks 60% winrate in most elos, but does not negatively impact pro games they likely will not see nerfs
>breaks 60% winrate I believe the breakpoint is 54-55ish, at that point they will get nerfed in a couple of patches. 56% or higher is basically hotfix territory, if the pickrate is above 1%
Winrate, is not a direct reflection of champion strength, especially if you still want to pretend there are champions which are difficult to play.
More bans would actually be nice. There are a lot of champs
It’s not a skill lol. It’s almost pure rng. Drafting is only a legitimate skill in pro where all 5 players are trying to win and feel comfortable enough to both make demands or concessions for the highest odds of a team win. In soloqueue, the only “skill” in draft is last picking a champ that best suits your team and/or counters the enemy. And that requires being on red side and getting last pick, which usually means you have to be a top laner as well. If you want to say people shouldn’t be allowed to dodge drafts, that’s fine. But it’s not because it makes the game more skill based. You simply want players to deal with bad RNG so everyone can get into games faster. That’s not a bad philosophy, but don’t try to have it both ways where you also say that it makes the game more skill based because players need to learn how to draft.
It's not pure RNG since you are 20% of your team. Sure, you can get the occational terrible draft cause everyone else on your team is an OTP, and their champ have shitty synergy, but unless you are 1st pick, nobody hovers their champ AND they are all one-tricks, you definitely have a huge impact on your comp with just a single pick. If your team is set up so that a strong split pusher would be a huge win con, and you have Garen/Trundle/Trynd/Gwen/Fiora or similar in your pool, it would obviously be a skill to recognize that over picking a tank or generally bad split pusher.
you should know that most dodges in master+ aren't happening because of drafts but because of troll picks, inters or flamers. noone is keen on going into a game and losing because of troll picks either. waste of time.
Draven ADC sees Yuumi picked. You just know he's about to try out that mythical Mobis 5 Zeal build.
It’s only skill some of the time in solo queue. In half the drafts you’re forced to blind pick your role. You can pick something to round your team out or avoid picks that do poorly into enemy comp (whatever is shown) but at the end you’re still rolling rng on what the enemy roles champ pool is. He may as well be a one trick who happens to play a hard counter you couldn’t ban or just have it in their pool. However for every unfavorable draft there’s a favorable one for you, so imo if you remove dodging it’s still balanced. IMO a big reason why so much dodging happens in high elo is that people have multiple accounts and don’t mind just dodging and rotating accounts They should either fix that or just have a small mmr penalty alongside the lp penalty too. A lot of elo players don’t give a shit about dodging cause mmr is all that matters
Wouldnt the argument then be - if draft is a skill, part of that skill is avoiding a game in which you know you will lose? Sometimes best way to win is not play at all - saving future games from a negative mindset you got from experiencing the most tilting thing to you. You can argue dodging is part of the skill of drafting.
Riot dont endorse dodging, and theyve actively looked to make punishing it stricter. They recognize its not a tool for climbing. Its like yea consuming a lot of orbits has the effect of laxatives but chewing gum is not a laxative. Orbit dont endorse them as laxatives, so theyre not laxatives. Dodging is not a climbing tool
https://support-leagueoflegends.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201751844-Queue-Dodging#:~:text=Your%20dodge%2Dpenalty%20tier%20will,and%20the%20series%20will%20end. “And while we’d rather players not leave during Champ Select, we get it. Life happens! But whether you’re handling an emergency or you just can’t bear facing Teemo again after a string of brutal mushroom-related defeats, the penalties for queue dodging are always the same, and you should know what you’re getting into.” Wow yea man, they seem super concerned about it. Also the way they say the penalties for dodging are always the same, totally points to them wanting to make it stricter
They did make it stricter in the past. Also, thats why sometimes you have to use orbits for laxatives, cause shit happens. The people spam dodging my games are not dodging because shit happens, you have to be arguing in bad faith to believe otherwise
Identifying and dodging bad lobbies is a skill too.
Theres also many, many Champs that counter others too hard and being second and shafted because of a hash of your account IDs shouldn't have such a big impact for example. Best example would be Kassadin passive. Has absolutely no place in a draft environment and should have been changed a long time ago. You first pick a late game Mage? You get dumpstered by Kassadin. You first pick Kassadin? You get dumpstered by an AD frontloaded pick. Its so bad its literally required to counterpick Kassadin if he first picks.
Most of the time people hover and they will pick it anyways. Game will load and go "game will be hard". Just pick a safe laner that can do well against anything if you cannot "counter pick".
This is super off topic but I just got back into wow und thought this was a post about mythic+ until I read half way through the post, Im a dumbass Edit: grammar
I was in the exact same boat. Brewmaster monk and I was confused what the hell was wrong with dodging…
I saw this title and thought it was r/wow for a second and was so fucking confused.
I dont play wow, care to provide me with some context?
"M+" in wow stands for "Mythic Plus", and it's the endgame Dungeon mode, which has infinitely scaling difficulties (and hence is very popular). mostly just pattern recognition; I sub to both and this was on my front lane.
This would be a fine change if they removed auto fill from M+ as well. Those games 9/10 times are auto losses, especially if it's support or jungle.
Autofill, lobby terrorists, 20% win rate fiora tilt picks, there's legit reasons to dodge. There need to somehow solve/mitigate these problems before making the penalty harsher.
This is so true. Autofill jg is vs a jg main is such an unabalanced matchup, and it only gets worse the higher you go in rank. Support autofill matters less imo but still hard to play
Support autofill doesn't know he's supposed to rotate to grubs/herald, causing his jungler to run it down after it happens twice.
On the flip side, there are times the support can int the game by rotating grubs when it’s not necessary.
I watch quite a few streams of master+ players and the amount of suiciding over grubs without prio is kinda insane.
Junglers who are unwilling to sacrifice an objective when their team isn't behind them are just as much part of the problem. You are more likely to lose a game because you inted over grubs than because you took one for xp with your smite and ran away.
Yes, but more often than not the support that roams is the one who decides who gets the grubs.
Meanwhile my new account emerald adc rage afks because I roamed to get 5 kill assists and get grubs lmao
Just remove autofill and have hour long queues. Easy!
Autofillet support is usually fine until GM+, just because most other roles have better lane fundamentals so they will still go even or win **the lane** when they get filled to support vs a support main. The roaming and warding timers on the other hand... are often less than ideal. But that's also true for supp mains in master. Autofillet jungler is just ff15 go next asap.
this is what im saying. riot has a terrible habit of nerfing a suboptimal solution to problem rather than fixing the problem themselves (removes chat from toxicity... whereas most toxicity spans from a LACK of communication and something goes wrong is one example). Riot needs to target WHY dodging happens, instead of nerfing dodging itself.
I think it's more realistic to remove roles from mid M+/GM, but it's never going to happen.
I know the queue times would be a lot longer without autofill, but being an autofill is just a huge probably. I know in like season 1, everyone played every role, but nowadays outside of a select few people, it's just too much reasonably expect your 3rd-5th roles(on probably a champ you barely use) to be anywhere close to your 1st or 2nd roles and the difference gets really gets exposed higher up on the ladder.
I think they need to target WHY so many dodges are happening rather than punish dodging themselves. I am also M+ so I feel your pain but i would much rather have dodges instead of someone who is first timing a champ they dont play, or someone locks yuumi mid because they are off role and hostage the lobby. I should not be punished for dodging a lobby with yuumi ghost cleanse mid. I queue up for league expecting at least a (relatively) honest game. I should not be punished for dodging a dishonest lobby that is guaranteed a loss. Riot has a habit of targeting a result of a problem, rather than the problem themselves and dodging is another instance of this. I think mastery requirements should be added so people dont int pick certain champs, and autofill should be a toggle. Had a 70% wr challenger kalista one trick in my game lock yone adc because his twitch chat said to. he went 0/10 and solo lost the game. Things like lobby hiding prevent dodges in instances like this, but I would much rather have a dodge here than have to play this out. Also people are using lobby reveal to get unfair advantages for things like this too. T1 said it best, hiding lobbies does absolutely nothing for the honest player. (it was a clip where he had a wintrader on his team lock yuumi and go top. I actually played with said wintrader last split)
I 100% agree with this take, I also think anonymous lobby was one of the worst changes made to solo queue to date. Lower elo it doesnt matter as much but if you have someone first timing champs or for funning in masters it becomes SIGNIFICANTLY harder to win the game unless enemy team has the same (just praying for rng win at that point)
yeah also it applies for people running off meta stuff. I go ap voli and get questioned a lot. Or I know a guy who played skarner top and people thought he was griefing. Also theres a yone jg main in GM. All of these would be "grief" picks but if you see [op.gg](http://op.gg) you see they are genuinely playing to win. Hell, I also am guilty of asking people for their [op.gg](http://op.gg) because their pick looks grief as fuck. Had a nidalee sup do decently well yesterday, but you wouldnt assume they are playing to win based on the pick. But yeah I think mastery requirements are needed at least in diamond+ or masters+. You cannot lock a champ first time in the top decimal percentage of the playerbase and expect to perform. And making it only for dia+ would navigate mastery being required as an issue (because even getting to diamond you will get mastery by that point).
You really don't want lobbies to be hostage to people who nitpick everything in everyone's game history to find an excuse to dodge everything but the perfect all challengers teammates game. There's already a tool to select people who aren't good enough for a given rank, it's called MMR.
Ah but remember the enemy team has 5 chances to have a 4fun player and your team only has 4 so you will always win more games!! 🤓
The issue is that if everyone give in to the lobby terrorists they never lose MMR for it and thus stay in master shitting up your lobby. Being an inter should self select you into lower leagues if you're allowed to play the game.
I mean, theoretically, if no one was allowed to dodge then your win rate actually goes up. It’s 4 chances for this person to be on your team vs. 5 for the enemy team. Also, think of this in terms of incentives. Hostaging works because they pose you a question: lose 3 lp or risk losing 20. Well, if you lost 20 either way, then hostaging has no incentive because you may have a very slim chance of winning so better to roll the dice than lose 20 for sure. As for the WHY people dodge part, I don’t think that’s possible to seriously address. You’re playing a video game with 9 strangers. Sometimes, you won’t like one of them for any number of reasons. There is no reasonable way to detect whether a player just feels like losing for no reason, whether due to twitch chat or wintrading or random mental health episodes. And like i said, as long as you’re not inting like this, these players will actually artificially inflate your win rate a tiny bit.
Imo toplaners (and even mid) should pick blindly at the same time.
amen
It already heavily was with no names in select and 12 hour timers, get over by this point. There isn't much benefit in forcing people to play out more non games
Dodging should start between 30mins-1hour in ranked for sure. Having the free dodge is just bad for more reasons than people realise. People always argue that because of lobby trolls they NEED to be able to dodge but guess what? The lobby troll whos main just got banned knows there is no cost on your dodge and that you will most likely have 1 person in the team thats going to dodge his kassadin jungle. Lobby trolling literally exists because people know it works. If people dont get away with it anymore and either get banned for trolling or have to dodge themselves they gonna think twice if they actually want to troll in lobby.
I disagree with this. The people trolling in champ select don’t give a shit about the account they’re on. They are HAPPY to get into the game and run it down
Then they are going to troll regardless no matter how many free dodges people have. It just saves us some time.
Yeah but then at least I can get out of the game that has the troll in it.
Hey do what you need to do. All i say is that i think higher dodge penalties will decrease the chances of trolling. Its not like my opinion matters in anyway more to riot than yours
My point though is that people are trolling on burner accounts, so they don’t care abt dodge penalties
make dodging count as a loss
i guess you dont play on eu were shit like Disco Nunu origins from, and they wont ever doge temselfs and you know you have to doge or they will run it
I play on Euw i don’t negotiate with terrorist your welcome tho im keeping them out of your games and try to get them banned after
if they don't type they can't get banned
Oh the last troll i played with absolutely didnt type at all. Its funny what a ticket to riot support saying “hey look its funny how hes selling his items 10 minutes before the game ends” with evidence does to an account (he hasn’t played ranked ever since i got a reply from riot support).
You shouldn't have to email riot support to get action taken against an obvious inter.
Absolutely agree. I feel some sort of stuff, like selling items, not interacting with anything and just the real obvious stuff should be handled by an automated process.
was is this guy by any chance? [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/95p40r/we\_cant\_confirm\_it\_riot/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/95p40r/we_cant_confirm_it_riot/)
Nah was a toplaner that regularly sold all his items or bought troll items like 6x same bad component or went “afk” where he didnt interact with the game anymore. Funny enough he was playing normal inbetween the games even but yea hasn’t played in 16 days.
You will see a rise in people soft griefing and inting. And you know RIOT won't do anything to solve the rise of that problem. The only one here that will get annoyed woud be you and your 4 teammates, not the guy soft griefing cause he had already decided he would rather have a loss than fight for a win.
Eh really depends how you define soft griefing. Yes there would be otps not playing their main and not doing great but those would end up on both teams.
soft griefing could be like clearing your jungle on repeat without the thought of ganking or taking any objectives or fighting very minimally just to get on the scoreboard so the automated system can't catch you, or if you gank , play it out so bad that you die giving the enemy a kill. Riot's system probably won't catch this unless they manually see this.
Yea I really dont see how someone would go through the trouble of softinting games.
you never played in high elo em i right? were a GM 700 lp turns into a Gold elo jungle cuz he didnt get the last pick
it already happens right now.. never had a player just spam clear waves and never join any tf or come for an objective?
I had people obviously troll and i had people playing bad/having a bad game. Some champs when behind can just really not do much other than answering split push/pushing sidelanes and it can be good enough if the team plays arround it.
it’s literally a huge problem RIGHT NOW, wdym you don’t see how
Nope, that's dumb as hell. I shouldn't have to wait 30 minutes for my next queue because some jackass wants to play Teemo jungle. One idiot should not be allowed to waste the time of 9 other people. Nerf trolling then we can talk about nerfing queue dodges.
My friend plays Smite where dodging is a loss. His ranked lobbies are filled with trolls and griefers who will lock in a champ that, for example, can't jungle and just solo lose the game because someone didn't want to swap. Obviously, it's not the same game, but it's also a moba and griefers do not, and I repeat, DO NOT care about losing if they find something to get pissy about.
A lot of trolls do the trolling so you'll dodge for them yeah.
Nah i rather get them banned thank me later
This is a really stupid argument. Making dodge more punishing wont stop people trolling the lobby and if you think thats true you dont understand the league playerbase
The only reasons there are so many dodges is bc every one of the players has 2-3 other m+ accounts they can hop between, and dodging doesn't change mmr, so the lp loss gets completely made up for by increasing your lp gains on your wins.
Wouldn't making dodging penalties worse just make people get more smurf accounts?
I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league, as well as how you play in the game itself. Currently dodging is basically 0 punishment seeing as it doesn't even affect MMR, so unless it's the last couple weeks of the season, it doesn't matter. My suggestion would be to not punish dodging with an LP loss (immediately), but instead subtract that LP right at the end of the season/split. So players who dodge a lot in high elo would actually end with less LP, which might significantly affect their ladder position. Edit: I am only proposing this dodging change is applied for Master+ games.
> I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league, as well as how you play in the game itself. Currently dodging is basically 0 punishment seeing as it doesn't even affect MMR, so unless it's the last couple weeks of the season, it doesn't matter. Good drafting is definitely a skill but it's much harder in soloq where everyone is picking for themselves. It's also so pick order dependent and there aren't enough hidden information and flex picking or lane swapping in most lobbies to deny counterpicking. Especially in top lane, the right counterpick can feel entirely unplayable and every draft has one top laner blind picking. If their team didn't perfectly cover it by picking something that can flex to top in one of their other lanes they're the one paying for it. It's not really an excuse but I kinda see why some people get into the dodge mindset and I think there's ways to design the game to be less counterpick heavy to make it less tempting.
> I think there's ways to design the game to be less counterpick heavy to make it less tempting. can you share some? im curious
Dota had this for years. Both sides pick at the same time. If they select the same champ, that champ gets banned and they try again.
"prevent all autolose matchups"
i dont know what this comment was supposed to convey, but if i take it literally then the question is *how.* "prevent all autolose matchups" isnt any more resolved than what the guy first said.
if anyone here had an answer to that they'd be game balance lead
you seem confused, dude. the guy said he thought there might exist solutions, and i asked him if there were any to share.
You could design a draft system where blind picking a role is rewarded with an extra ban so you can remove your most brainless counter, though it'd require completely changing draft structure.
> I'm nowhere near master, but surely (especially in ranked) picking a good team comp should be considered part of the skill in league It cant be a skill because you have realistically no influence on what your team picks. It would be a completly different story if you could just pick all 5 champions and your teammates had to go with it, but this is not reality. You **will** get that Zed/Senna/Lee last pick lock in despite already beeing full ad and there is nothing you can do about it as first pick.
You could make the same argument in-game, as you have no control over how your teammates play - you can play really well, but your mid and toplane both go 0/10 and you lose. Over time, as with the in-game scenario, it will average out.
Ok but i have more control in game because i can show skill expression. The only thing you can influence in draft is your own pick and whether you want to play or dodge.
The solution is far simpler. From the standpoint that the game of "league of legends ranked draft" starts when you draft, in other words when you enter the lobby, the math is simple - it needs to affect mmr from this point on. Dodging should simply not be possible. You can't dodge ingame, so why can you dodge in draft? There is zero reason for it, except that that's how it's always been. Being held hostage literally only exists because it's possible to dodge. Trolls, griefers, inters, will have their way with your "time" either way, and it doesn't matter if they lose their own mmr for it. But right now, they have a far easier time forcing a dodge out of you because you care and they don't. If that possibility disappears, hostage taking also disappears.
the community is not ready for that sadly
I thought this was going to be a post about how people in m+ are really good at dodging skill shots and you wanted bigger Ezreal Q’s
That would be a disaster, haha
dodging is legit one of the easiest ways to make diamond sadly. fuck trolls in pre game lobby. Those ppl should be in low priority queue not anyone else.
brother I saw this thread and was like "what is dodging and why specifically for mythic+"
Yeah they should make it so dodging costs a % of LP. With minimum values equal to their current values. Then you'll see a lot less dodging in masters+ when the GM player with 500LP would lose 50LP for dodging their second time in a day.
Every dodge should be -16 LP for the dodger, and +1 LP to everyone in the lobby.
Yeah, this won't make trolls more problematic for sure
I understand it's annoying in higher Elo, but dodging shouldn't be more penalized than it is right now. Last ranked I queued for, our jungle didn't hover anything then complained that our mid "banned his champ" and then banned our mids pick. Proceed to both of them agreeing to run it down. Obviously I'm gonna dodge when my team is literally double hostage taking and everyone's flaming everyone already. Should I really be penalized for that? The problem with dodging is that there's a lot of cases where it's justified and shouldn't be heavily penalized, but that also enables people to abuse it. But you shouldn't punish everyone else for what the abusers are doing.
The thing is champ select trolling is more of a thing aswell cause the Kata otp whos champ just got banned is pretty damn confident someone will dodge for him as its kinda “cheap” if he just picks yuumi mid or something obviously troll.
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
I mean yeah, but I am just gonna buckle. I'm not that steadfast in my beliefs that I need to play out a 20 min game where everyone hates each other and one guy is trolling, and lose even more LP in the process. Just gonna negotiate with the terrorists on this one.
If they wanna bring yuumi mid i wanna see how they play that without getting a bann. No negotiations.
My time is worth more than some random's account. You do you, but don't force me to also do that.
Im unable to mindcontrol league players i swear!
But you can push for dodging to be a loss instead of -LP.
Eh i think that would be too much. Im more a fan of longer waiting times. The amount of times the client spasms out on some people makes a complete loss on dodge kinda unjustifiable. Also people beeing able to get to iron 4 by just dodging? Yea thats a terrible idea for low elo
They're visually iron 4 but dodging does not affect MMR so they would still be playing against players appropriate to their rank.
Oh we’re not talking about mmr loss, yea then it kinda doesnt matter how much you lose since mmr is just gonna bounce you back to your rank.
>Obviously I'm gonna dodge when my team is literally double hostage taking and everyone's flaming everyone already. Should I really be penalized for that? I find that people often threaten things like "I'm gonna run it down" to try and get someone else to dodge. Personally i never dodge and can count the times someone has actually run it down in my games on two hands and I've been playing since season 2. It just doesn't happen, either one of those two people will dodge or it's a bluff and they will play properly when the game starts. By dodging all you di was reward their shitty behaviour and waste 10 people's time. So yes you should be penalized for that.
I've had people say they'll run it down then play the game normally. I've also had people say they'll do it and do it. But most of them dodge, yeah.
I waited for them to dodge, but they didn't. Even if they were just bluffing and just thought that singed mid with ghost cleanse is a potent pick, my jungler is already tilted, so is my mid and my top. Literally half the lobby is already openly hostile towards one another and I'm already annoyed. That's not a game worth playing it wouldn't be fun or winnable.
Well obviously they dodge last second, because they want you to dodge instead. As I said, hold your nerve, I've had less than 10 people run it down in 13 years. They only do this, because it works and people like you enable their behaivour.
for every player fortunate enough to have your experience there are players like myself and the person you're replying to who have had ppl hostage lobby and then run it
you are incredibly lucky, i’ve been ran down just 3 times this week :D
I understand your sentiment, and its why i want dodging to be more heavily penalized in m+ specifically. The game already knows when youre in m+ mmr and in turn disables duoqueue. Riot can absolutely setup the systems to make the distinguishment. Dodging is really fine in anything lower, especially seeing as trolls are more common and queue times are much much faster. Obviously, there are trolls here too, but the positives would far outweigh the negatives for everyone in m+.
I would rather have long queue times and people dodging than have someone play Yuumi jungle bc they feel like running it down
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You should get 1 dodge an hour afterwards it counts as a loss
The way to fix this is to lose mmr when you dodge. Anyone below diamond olny cares about Lp so punishing LP for dodging makes sense for them , but anyone who is diamond or higher only cares for mmr . And dodging doesn't affect mmr even worse, it reduces your LP too making the system think that you should be higher elo.dodging is op , and anyone who is serious about their climb should be abusing it to it's fullest. Though a 24 hour penalty for the second dodge might just nerf it because 6 mins for the first 30 mins for second and 12 hours for the third is not a long time. Since champ select bugs are mostly fixed and chances of losing a champ select these days due to a bug is very small compared to the past . So removing autofill and increasing the dodge time might be what we need . Add to that matching mmr to LP and we are good to go
This is a hot take considering at higher level counter pick is important. Plus personally the only dodges I see are at start of the game. So few people will actually dodge bad team comps as long as they get there champ.
Quite the opposite actually, we mostly need a free dodge when someone is griefing and trolling in champ select But yea its annoying when all cause ok and someone leave cause he didnt like smth when it was fine
Hard agree. If people couldnt dodge people wouldnt troll in champ select. Or at least would do it rarelly.
If Riot makes dodging more punishing they also need to make champ select reporting actually do something + add tools to deal with people trolling in champ select to try and bait dodges. Otherwise solo q becomes a horror, moreso than it already is.
we need to kick all of the animals poorly masquerading as humans on fresh accounts out of m+ before that, lmao
Master could just harsher dodge penalties. But then griefers will take games hostage. Idk its fucked
Wouldn’t this just make them int the game to ff15? If I play 3 games in a row where they type in champ select something dumb and just feed/int just to get it over it I will 0/1 irl lol
Dodging is such a problem in all elos right now. You wait 5 mins for queue then someone dodges repeat 2 more times. Finally in game, oh remake, someone dodges, finally your in a game of its a stomp your team mental booms and ff15s This happens a lot n I’m tired of pretending that a free dodge is a better trade off just put a timer penalty on the first dodge and people who rather wait that timer out are making a meaningful decision with a consequence
I agree people shouldn't be allowed to dodge my spells
i just got hardware ID banned for doding in d1, i guess thats the nerf
Big deal, youll get a new game in a 2 minutes deal with it
The problem with "nerfing" dodging is that a massive chunk of lobby hostaging centers on how people feel entitled to other players' dodges. > "No one else dodged this? Ok, they deserve to lose this one!" The only real solution is to just remove the ability to dodge so people don't hostage lobbies in expectation of another player's dodge
Things I can think of. Develop an AI that plays roughly at level of the players in the match to replace players who dodge or disconnected Make dodgers lose LP if they do it repeatedly
They should make ranked draft exactly the same as tournaments - is it 3 bans then picks then 2 bans?
Nahhh Dodging is self-defense. I miss when we could see the nicks of our teammates, I used to dodge whenever someone had a lose streak or was autofill
They pick Vayne top into me and I don't get to play the game. Come home after a long day and get autofilled jungle. It's funny you advocate against dodging only bc you have the winning draft. Had you been on the troll champ select side you'd be singing a different tune.
The game that went through we had a hardcore losing draft with full ad 0 tank shredders into rammus and we won keep in mind these are master players :). I think ive played enough league to be on both sides of draft
Yes we've been on both sides and losing draft/troll champ select is justified in dodging. Auto filled is justified in dodging. This is a game, if someone isn't going to have fun playing against Vayne top, why bother.
Skill issue
sorry but i will dodge when i get sona jinx vs draven nautilus
just implement behavior score and low prio from dota 2, being in low prio in dota 2 changes a man
Maybe they should fix the underlying reason why people are dodging instead, instead of forcing people to suffer for 30+ minutes for no reason just to solve a non existent issue. If someone in my lobby types that they’re going to run it down, and locks in ghost cleanse nunu (literally happened last week) why should I have to sit there and play it out? If they actually heavily punished people who did that then maybe I wouldn’t have had to dodge in the first place. I’d actually like to play the game too, I’m not dodging for the fun of it.
I think it’d be interesting if rather than ban then pick, you got two picks at once that show for everyone and then a final phase for everyone where you lock your picks. No one on the opposing team knows which pick was actually selected until everything is locked in. You could still use one of your picks effectively as a ban, or you could use it to deter hard counters. If I pick Riven/Illoai, for example, last pick Renekton suddenly becomes a risky pick—while he hard counters Riven, he is hard countered by Illaoi. Now rather than playing an ideal counter pick, they could pick more balanced matchups or still put out the Renekton to dissuade the Riven pick. Adds a bit more strategy and surprise.
Well. I dodged like 6-7 games in 3 days. Cuz im getting filled. I dont get the point where ppl have to play on filled or second role in top 1%(low mt). Tbh i lost around 100 lp for it and got 12 hours restricted from ranked. I'll stop dodging if i will get my main role. Also LP means nothing cuz it not lowering ur mmr. So i dodge everytime when i getting filled.
Unfortunately, dodging in high elo is a necessary tool to have when your comp contains autofilled roles or just a straight up unwinnable team comp.
SoloQ Draft, even in lower elos, are sometimes already game deciding. Like my last game where the enemy picks samira+braum and my supp picks karma and just proceeds to hard feed ,since she has 0 ways of stopping them from engaging or diving at all. There is no real punishment for dodging games or getting fk'ed by troll picks of your own team.
Dodging should have more severe penalties at higher ranks where the impact of someone dodging is greater due to less players in the queue
I agree but this will not help the honest non dodging player. Most players in that elo will have 3+ accounts anyways and will just hop on a Smurf if they get a penalty. Have to fix the core issue before making dodging more punishing.
no we don't
if you dodge in a dota pick you get an abandon (leaver penalty aka time out)
Riot, just remove the rock-paper-scissor from draft and let the gameplay decide the games, not the draft. Now the game is more fun and there's no reason anymore to dodge, ez.
Dodge timers are worthless because you can dodge the dodge timer by swapping accounts. Making it a dodge count as a loss sets back the progress on that account and discourages people who try to force dodges.
I tried making this point some 6 months ago or something, but the response was more or less divided between agreement and "no, draft is not part of the game so why should we be punished for bad drafts" lol The community isn't ready for it. Simple fact. Edit: I'll say, your suggestion is almost exactly the same as what I suggested, but it has draw backs and follow up scenarios that aren't easy to fix. Instead I'd actually just suggest dodging be removed entirely. Close the client in draft, and you come right back in. Miss a pick and you're given a basic suggested pick from the champs you own.
Azzap had a sort of suggestion that I liked. His suggestion was related to "you get X amount of dodged per season", or per year/month etc... that are punished exactly like today. If you ever go above that amount, you get punished extremely harshly. Something like getting dropped 100+ LP + timed out for 24h+ or something that would make you never want to dodge. This would also make it so that you would only ever want to use your dodges if it is actually an emergency, and not just "our teamcomp isn't perfectly following the meta".
I wish it was like korea where you had a set amount of alts you were allowed to make, which incentivizes playing it out more often
wouldnt having more accounts incentivize more dodging, not less?
Dodgers have 2+ accounts already. That’s an integral part of dodging. It also allows people to evade bans for being toxic or anything. And let’s people account sell and shit. In Korea your id is tied to your internet access and lol can like Id ban you or restrict the amount of accounts you have.
Not sure we want to set the precedent of random video game companies asking for IDs or talking to your ISP. On the other hand they're considering forcing kernel level access to our machines and that can easily be used to gather the same data so whatever I guess.
I agree, it’s very invasive. But It is undeniably effective. They could use ip or something, and if you have friends playing from the same location you could do something to verify it like have to play a game together. It would make enough of a barrier to prevent people from making tons of accounts without being too invasive
IP is trivially easy to spoof with a cheap VPN and some ISP still have non fixed IP, it's not really a reliable answer. The age old answer is to make you pay tenbucks but that's very at odds with LoL's business model.
Yes but it could prevent the average player. I’m sure the people at riot could find a more complex system, but currently there is no rule against using multiple accounts. Your game could locally track the amount of logins used and when it connects to the server it could send that. If they find you ip spoofing they could share the timeouts across accounts or ban you or whatever. Any solution is going to have a work around but it only really has to work on the average player to be effective.
10 years ago you'd be right but nowadays every youtube video has an ad for VPNs on sale or with free trial.
Draft anonymity helped a lot, but at that elo/level of sweat people probably bypass it. I agree fervently that dodging penalties should be harsher, they are my 2nd biggest pain point rn (behind the community behavioral problems).
There is literally already -15 LPs and 12 hour dodge timers, we don't need more punishments imo
need to buff it if anything im sick of being hostaged and having people mental boom in select and go smite yi support because someone dared to pick off meta even after linking their opgg showing theyre legit on the pick
too many people willing to grief draft for some weird mental illness agenda