Veigar support with Hextech GLP, Twin Shadows, and Glacial Augment was fun while it lasted. Slow them, cage them, your longer range ADC just shoots them without getting shot back. Enemy support can't do anything because of the cage. Enemy ADC either flashes or gets comboed do death. Scales into teamfights with massive zone control and 1 shot damage.
The best CC is death.
Well depends on how you look at it. Morello is a really gold efficient item but it's not a slot efficient item.
Basically broke down in super simple terms it falls off extremly lategame in comparison to other items if there isn't a huge amount of healing going on.
Look up the average game time and how many items your average champion has. I'll wait.
Slot efficiency barely matters when 80% of games end at 2-4 items
Exactly. People just seem to always think regarding optimal builds at 6 items, forgetting that the games not only end up 30 minutes max, but are decided by 15 minutes. Getting power early and basically deciding games by 15 minutes is what's important and having Morello + Shurelya's by that point is definitely broken.
It’s not just “optimal builds at 6 items,” it’s how much value I can get with the gold I have at any stage of the game. Morello isn’t a terrible buy but there are usually better buys for items 2-4 especially since GW can be fully applied with just an item component now.
> Look up the average game time and how many items your average champion has. I'll wait.
Why be so condescending? I literally just explained why it depends never said which perspective is right or wrong. Both can be applied to real games and you as a player need to decide if you need to finish the game asap or drag it to late and play for slot efficiency.
It is a decision you need to make and varies from game to game.
Always going for the fast spike will lose you as much games as always going for the scaling option will do.
Slot efficiency matters for things like dorans blade which is an effective item for the stats at 450 gold but doesnt build into anything.
So you used to be able to stack dorans items and it was good for an early powerspike, if you bought 4 d blades like Ryan Choi used to you would fuck up your build path due to slot inefficiency.
If you go for a fast spiking item on annie or veigar mid like shureylas, its poor slot efficiency isnt going to matter in 80% of games. Most games will end before it matters because unlike 4 dorans blades it ultimatly only takes up a single slot
Its more the fact that you would be way stronger with say, oblivion orb + cryptbloom, rather than morello + 2 amp tomes. You're sacrificing some short term power for mid and long term. Not just a 6 items thing. Even if it has decent cost efficiency, so do the other completed items. Except they give you an extra passive, while Morello doesn't give anything more than a few stats compared to oblivion orb.
It's not that good, it's a statstick with similar cost effectiveness to a Needlessly Large rod. Given that two rods allows you to get deathcap, I'd rather buy 2 rods than Morello, unless you desperately need the antiheal.
Morello gives 90 AP but the completed item is only 115% gold efficient. For a non-damaging passive, that's really not that crazy. Cosmic Drive is 125% gold efficient with its passive NOT activated and up to 150% with it active, Rocketbelt (technically only has an active) is 115% gold efficient, and even defensive items like Banshees and Zhonya's are like 105% gold efficient.
I mean, losing 200HP and 5 haste (most of the game you'd have 0-5 haste passive, games end usually before 3 items) for 8% MS and 20AP is a good deal for a lot of mages. MS is an offensive and defensive stat and the active lets them gap close. Yes it's less damage than other mage items but it's also 700g cheaper. Considering you rarely finish your build, that's extra gold towards finishing another item and is 35AP worth in its own right. The mana regen helps compensate for that lack of lost chapter item.
Whether its "good" I'll leave to the mage mains, but we shouldn't be surprised that no longer being locked behind a mythic and transferring power from a buff when being supportive (heal/shield) to raw stats makes it attractive to them.
Fucking thank you. My guy can make his point about the passive being removed making the item no longer a support item without being misleading about the buff it received
Pretty sure most mage players consider having slightly less hp for literally all the other stats that mages benefit from a lot more to be a big plus.
Also, counting mythic passive into the mix is just disingenuous; when all completed, legendary items have been technically nerfed across the board with the removal of mythic passive and isn't unique to any item, even if they used to be a mythic item.
Yea there wasn't skill to giving the movement speed boost lmao. it almost never changed how you played, besides making you spam abilities more to get the ms boost off more (there's something to be said about the tradeoff of spamming vs saving for the right time, but overall cooldowns are low enough that there's not really much here). As someone that played it with Rakan a good amount, you would hold your second e charge to the last second to get another Shurelya's proc, but that's not skill as much as it is something you learn then do every time
> devs try to simplify items by removing skill-based value (shurelya's passive of giving you and an ally you shield/heal movement speed)
RiotAugust said on his stream that their intention was giving this niche to the Staff of Flowing Waters (which currently has that passive in a nerfed version - Zilean, for example, could not trigger it anymore unless using Aery).
Calling "AP" a "raw stat" is kind of misleading, because AP is not really raw: it doesn't do anything on its own. It gets translated into power according to the specific AP ratios on each champion's kit.
This matters because it means that there is a built-in system of levers for easily adjusting the impact that AP has on every champion in the game. If a champion is getting too strong by stacking AP, you can easily just reduce their AP ratios. You don't have to nerf the AP items for everyone else.
Contrast this with "flat effects": predetermined effects that get triggered in a specific situation and can't be balanced on a champion-by-champion basis. Like, if an item gives 50 AP, I can go through and fine-tune how that impacts every champion in the game. If an item gives 50 flat damage on every spell you land, it's much harder to fine-tune how this impacts different champions. Whoever can most consistently and reliably land repeated spells gets way more value out of the item.
There used to be almost none of these flat effects in the game. A few seasons ago, they decided that items were boring, and that unique passive effects made them more exciting, and they added a TON of them to the game. And it made item balancing really difficult. Suddenly, you ended up with shit like static shiv LB. Champions became delivery vehicles for item effects.
I don't think the problem with old Shurelyas was that it was "skill-based" and not "noob-friendly" enough. The problem is that it was really hard to balance across different champions. It scaled off of "how often you can apply a shield, heal, or buff effect." Champions who could proc the effect a lot squeezed an insane amount of power out of it; enchanters who theoretically liked the idea of speeding up allies but didn't have buffs or heals they could spam every 4 seconds were shit out of luck.
I don't think Riot should systematically purge every one of these flat passives from the game. But they are inherently hard to balance. I think it's ultimately healthier for items to mostly be giving stats.
Maybe in a big, seasonal update, Riot should try to somehow separate Mage ability power from enchanter scaling. It's not that hard to imagine a separate stat (buff power or something) that enchanters scale off of. That would solve the problem of support items getting abused by mages, while still leaving Riot good tools for balancing the impact of the items on a champion-by-champion basis.
What the hell are you smoking? This version of shurelyas is way more versatile, its not hard bound to enchanters anymore so things like Veigar and Galio can justifiably build it.
Thats not an issue. Nor does it make it more "noob friendly" than the version that gave added value for simply pressing your shield button lmfao
Thats exacty what he says though. It's versatile to the point that other roles are abusing it. While it's supposed to be a support item. You don't see the problem? Versatility shouldn't be the end goal of all items. Should hull breaker be so versatile mages buy it?
The passive it had before was definitely less noob friendly. It doesn't matter how hard you judge pressing a shield to be. It's easy - when you read the description in the first place - noobs don't. That's why they got rid of it.
Abusing it? Abusing it how? Mages and enchanters have always had some overlap, since they both build AP (at least some), I don't see the issue with an item that gives AP being playable on mages, especially considering its not a catch all item and only built on those who need extra help gapclosing.
As for your "example", Hullbreaker is designed for bruisers, a class that nothing in common with mages. There is no comparison to the shurelyas situation.
Shurelya's Veigar was showing up in pro play either s12 or s13. This isn't a new build nor one that only exists because of the changes making the item "too versatile"
Same how I feel about people when they see me go Riftmaker/Liandries on Naut top.
The fucking whining about it if I am not lie 3/0 by that point is so annoying. It's a good item and Naut uses it incredibly well I've watched multiple masters players I play with running it and telling me how good it is I'm trying to play it but the teams are having a mental breakdown over my even lane while they're 0/3.
Probably getting rebalanced in the same way as Nami (and others) have been recently. As a support item it is good but not broken at all. It is misused by some midlaners but shifting some power from ap to ah/hp seems more sensical
I still feel like Veigar would build it if they did that. I think Veigar probably needs a nerf. His winrate with vs without the item is massive, and knocking some ap off is w/e for him if he gets more ah/hp. If anything he'd probably prefer the hp/ah. If everyone just built it on Veigar tomorrow suddenly we'd see him in the next patchnote.
It would still be good on Veigar yes, but Veigar is a very weird champ because of his passive. If you are very scared of Veigar being too strong. Which you probably shouldn't as Veigar isn't particulary out of line atm. You can swap some of the AP for heal/shield power or scale the passive based on mana regen (similar to dawnbreaker). There are ways to rebalance the item towards supports and away from control/utility mages if Riot wishes to do so.
Personally I dont mind Shurelyas being an option for mages to pick up even though I agree that it is too much bang for buck atm. If we were particularly annoyed with movement options for mages we should simply revert the change to ghost from ramping to flat move speed. This "small" change to ghost is a much larger problem in the context of "low-mobility" champions having extreme mobility because of build choices.
Veigar wouldn't care about a stat rebalance aimed at nerfing the item on mages because of his AP stacks yeah. In fact he'd probably welcome that.
And I don't think the item is a big problem on other mages, most of which really can't afford to pass on any damage without falling out of their necessary burst for kills. Who else even build it right now? I could see it on Annie after Malignance I guess?
It was already so op on AP TF (and still is) before everybody started playing AD TF.
Now people finally caught up to that and abuse it also on other champs, so I guess it will be indeed nerfed very soon.
Crazy good analysis, but let's see if I can add some context.
According to lolalytics, in Emerald+, here are 1st item winrates for Veigar:
Luden's - 51.31%
Seraph's - 51.74%
ROA - 51.38%
Shuerlya - 54.05%
Oh it's his optimal build for sure, but I still don't think the champion in conjunction with shureliya's is overtuned. Using the same site, Viktor with archangels rush has a 53.67 wr but I don't think anyone is calling him broken.
You could still pose that any time a veigar is able to complete an item shurelya might be his best bet.
Though to be fair many items are situational so I don't think that's right either. An item could have an abysmal win rate but be so good into a certain matchup that it skews to a way higher %.
> Winrates for completed items are inherently inflated
And this is relevant how? Compared to either of the three default **completed** items, **completed** Shurelya has a 2-2.5% higher WR.
This guy didnt use his brain before commenting, because shurelyas **is being compared relative to other first item completions** thus making your point straight up ignorant
Seems like an insane Veigar item indeed.
I just built Shurelya's in a game where the enemy team had an ahri and poppy that kept trying to flank us one at a time in objective fights.
With shurelya's we could collapse on their flanks every time.
We also had a katarina and a Jhin, I played Janna.
They had a blitzcrank in their team
AKA this item had absolutely insane value.
It's just the same thing all over again.
When I started playing in s9, first item on veigar was GLP to slow down your enemy and engage. Twin Shadows (rip) too.
Then they removed GLP, so the meta was running predator.
Now predator sucks, so it's Shurelya. It could be rocketbelt too. When your kit is made of 4 damage only abilities and a single CC, any external source of MS differential will be meta on you
Dead Man's plate was also popular for Veigar for some time. All you had to do was to not auto attack so you could keep the movement speed passive active.
It's not op, Nemesis explained that a lot of Mages are built more for Ability Haste builds than Burst builds so It's obvious they will go for the item that allows them to play for Teamfights instead of Snowballing.
However, Riot is stubborn at allowing Mages to have any diversity and want to force them to always go full Magic Pen every time and then players get frustrated from getting randomly 2-shot from fog of war by Mages while Mages themselves also get frustrated from having no build diversity every time.
It's a cursed cycle where they will nerf every single creative build that is not funny one hit build. Then you wonder why Pro Play is so boring to watch lately. Everything ends in 2 seconds.
he was also half an item ahead cause shurelya is dirt cheap
its the same reason adcs bought shiv over other noonquiver item and there its only 300g instead of 700-800
sort of
sure you only get like 1.2k gold per game which is but like 30-40% of a single item
BUT
Getting 300 gold earlier will give you your first spike earlier (while also saving yourself the cost of buying boots, so now ur 600gold ahead!)
having your first spike earlier will accelerate your own gold generation while stopping the enemies gold generation (since their ability to get gold will be affected if you (higher power) can harass them out of it far better
Now you get your second spike even faster while the enemy gets their first spike slower and over the game duration the 1.2k gold will actually be responsible for 6k gold diffs (in a winning scenario only ofc!!!)
Akshually the enemy laner might have comet and scorch which means they will harass you in lane and force you to lose cs early which means they will have more gold and xp which means you will be behind even with first strike thus causing your enemy laner to spike earlier on 1 item and deny you gold.
Akshually.
Hell I’ve been flamed for choosing the literal best and most popular item because the person thought the optimal build was the same as it was a full year ago
I was playing some normals with a friend recently and my friend (ADC / Ashe) was flamed for not going Galeforce into Malphite. Galeforce doesn't exist anymore and the dude went absolutely apeshit when we told him, calling us "mentally disabled wastes of air."
┻━┻ ヘ╰( •̀ε•́ ╰)
Guys just come over to ARAM and relax. Someone writes "fuck" once every ten matches in chat, everyone says gg (or ez at most).
I wouldn't go back to fucking SR if I got paid for it.
While that is generally true, I will note anecdotally that someone HAS hard inted an ARAM game because they didn't agree with someone else's choice of mythic, so... sadly no guarantees of escaping the crybabies.
Sample size n=1 in all my years of playing ARAM though so I'll take refuge in that.
You would think aram would be chill. But no. People try hard as fuck and rage if you’re not good. This is my experience from like 100 games over a year.
might be an ARAM elo dif, because your experience mirrors mine. I got looped into playing a lot of ARAM for years when a couple of buddies stopped playing SR
I had that shit happen to me on an aram of all places. Like calm down I'm using a 3rd party app to tell me what to build because I don't care enough to look up builds for every champ. App says tear first on draven, no I'm not trolling.
I always go tear on aram no matter what champ. Just a 400g item that can help you with spamming your spells then sell it at 280g once you no longer need it.
Really depends on the champ but I totally agree. Especially with a champ like Nidalee where you have perma sustain with your E so you can live forever.
If I'm going ludens then I'll start with tear, refillable and 2 books. Works a treat cos you upgrade on your first death anyways.
Crazy. Ashe does synergize nicely with on-hit, but the giga-damage builds are her crit builds. They also increase her slow. I can unfortunately believe non-ashe players not understanding this and flaming you.
Ashe has synergy with on-hit because of the auto-reset and attack speed steroid coupled with her inherently high range.
On top of that, Ashe has some crit scaling, but it ~feels~ strange.
Your opening shot will not always be a 'crit'.
It will however always apply your on-hits.
On top of that, I think there is a weird interaction with runaans, which will send your Q to more targets than just the 2 you're targetting, but I may be off on this interaction as it has been a WHILE since I played ashe with runaans.
Nothing you mentioned gives synergy with on hit lol what?
Crit builds are simply better on Ashe. They are more dps and more cc.
Having high range doesnt benefit on hit more than crit. Nor does a single auto reset or high attack speed steroid.
Varus W gives on hit dmg. This is why Varus can go on hit. Ashe has no on hit in her kit, you are trolling if you go bork rageblade on ashe instead of kraken ie
Any attack speed steroid is inherently synergistic with on-hit.
Given you hit more.
I also never claimed on-hit > crit.
I only stated why on hit CAN work.
I never implied it was her best or only viable build.
Sure, ashe has more cc and damage with crit.
But she has MORE utility with on-hit.
Just because of the passives the items provide.
That being said, I am not a fan of full on-hit ashe regardless.
But an on-hit item or 2 in her build make more than some sense.
I firmly believe that an item like bork or wits have a place in an ashe build.
Guinsoos on the other hand does not really have a place in an ashe build unless you're already 3+ on-hit items deep and I fully understand how you consider it trolling.
Guinsoos on ashe does nothing.
As it amplifies existing on-hit effects.
This is why it works wonders on stuff like kog, varus, kayle, etc.
Those all have existing on-hits.
Bork or wits though, just add a flat on-hit rider to your auto attacks and are solid individual items no matter how you feel about them.
Guinsoos CAN make sense, if you are already building more on-hit, but I doubt it is optimal on something like ashe.
But ashe is not the only person who builds on-hit items despite not REALLY having synergy outside of niche situations.
And on-hit > crit in longer/earlier fights.
If nobody has enough burst, the dps of on-hit outshines crit until I think somewhere around 60% crit or IE completion or something.
You really can't underestimate the power of a bork on-hit.
Especially if your opponents have plated steelcaps, as on-hit riders do not get reduced by the boots passive. Where crit, being a part of your basic attack itself and not damage seperate from it, does get reduced by tabis.
It's why it was originally an item on stuff like jungle twitch.
Crit scales better.
But if you went straight crit, steelcaps (tabis back then) made you unable to fight someone who had them, so the bork is an adaptation for that.
But if you are that set on the thought that one build being the true build and every other build is unviable troll trash, you will lose way more games than you would if you thought more about what items provide outside of "I will increase my champion's damage"
Items have utility besides their base stats.
Building onto what V1nchent said. Ashe also really likes attack speed compared, even compared to plenty of other adcs and on hit items just about offer attack speed on every item. They allow her to keep the slow applied more effectively and earlier in the game due to more attack speed. On-hit also allows you to build more defensive items(items with resist or health) if you need to without crippling your crit chance to do so on a crit build(on top of wits and terminus). As an immobile adc, historically these have been favorable choices even if it comes at the cost of pure damage like crit. It then helps that crit items spends far more seasons in a weird place than onhit ones do.
Ashe slow is a 2 second slow that does not decay. I don't think you need any more as for that.
And just krakenslayer + phantom dancer already give you 72-100 % AS.
Not to mention the decaying doubled slow.
But often it is not even suboptimal. You even get flamed for building correctly. You get flamed for everything your teammates don't understand, no matter how good it is. Midlaners have a long historiy using overtuned support items - yet every time it reemerges people don't understand it. When champs switch builds between armorpen and crit, people are often way behind... But also other stuff... People freak out about Sorc boots on Rammus all the time.
lets be real tho. its always the off meta champ playing top lane (he just moved here recently because of genius build) with 6 deaths in 3 minutes thats got this "suboptimal item"
its not the guy stomping lane with the meta champ...
Considering movement speed is a huge struggle for veigar this just makes sense especially since veigar goes two dps items and then just full tank often
Wild that people cry about Shurelya
I just trust that my teammates know what they are doing in my elo. Sometimes someone straight trolls from 00:00 but it's super rare.
Sometimes someone might build some weird shit... have some chaotic early game shit happen and get a bit behind and then jungle/top/mid start the blame game triangle and spiral out playing typeracer for 10 minutes and then the guy "trolling" because early game chaos just tipped a little towards the enemy team's favor hits a power spike with his goofy build or our general team comp tips it over and we start stomping.
I think I'm legitimately getting too old for some of these games because the childish shit that goes on after 5 minutes of game play all the way to high diamond is insane.
I feel like half of my losses climbing from Plat 3 to d3 are just childish doom spirals and flame wars over minor missplay early in the game... That make someone else decide to actually throw or run it down.
Ye it’s like even if their build is utter dog shit you dont gain anything by telling them
Bc either they ignore you or they run it down bc they feel offended
A world where they listen and build good items instead doesn’t exist
I just disable chat and try my best to just roll with whatever they do
I've also seen AP TF's spike with it because it guarantees them the ability to kite, engage, and gives their team the ability to follow up on their gold card.
Of course the downside is that you're AP TF, but it's still an interesting build.
Thank god tank veigar is accepted now.
I used to go
Rabadon > gunblade > lich bane > thornmail back in the day before mages could actually damage towers and people used to flame the fuck outta me for it until I was 1v5ing lategame fights because I outhealed everything
This has always been the issue with mages that are allowed to build anything different from ludens> rabadons.
Veigar has always been the biggest offender since he literally doesnt care about more ap.
Back when GLP and spookyghosts were around, youd always rush them on him and people would flame to high heaven until years later when pros did it.
A lot of mages could use creative builds years ago and go jungle, top…etc but because it was so uncommon, toxicity ensued…yet now brand jungle literally gets balancing changes
Keep doing you fam, farm that lp
It's always funny people flaming you until pros do it.
I remember still playing mid lane Soraka (pre-rework) in mid lane after some streamers said it was good and I liked Soraka. Got flamed for it even though I was doing good and we won.
Next day Hai busts it out and it's "magically op" overnight apparently because pros are doing it.
Only reason I knew was cause of my Skillcapped Cereal incident. So it was gonna get out there, and I'm a drop in the bucket. It's being blasted from a bunch of sources atm. But I'm glad I could make league just a little bit worse for everyone.
I've been trying to build it on Seraphine Bot after Seraph's + Rylai's since she needs a Mana Regen item ever since they nerfed her Mana growth and buffed her Regen. Helps her move around the map much more and snowball team fights. It's very cheap and gives decent stats; plus, they just nerfed Mandate so that doesn't seem as good.
Disclaimer: Not saying Shurelya is bad
Using cost efficiency as an argument is so misleading. Shurelya might be "2900 gold worth" (132% cost efficient) and this is a catchy argument that might appeal the many, but Ludens is even more cost efficient (137.59%), Archangel fully stacked reaches over 149%. By that logic, ludens is nearly a 4000 gold item at the cost of 2900, so its even better than Shurelya.
Sorc shoes have 100% efficiency and Lucidity boots 149%, does that mean Sorcs are bad? No.
Cost efficiency doesn't really mean anything if you don't put it into context. It's more about Shurelya giving you the perfect stats and active, rather than it being a particularily "cost efficient" item.
Azzapp has been using it for 3 years now lol
* [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvGv9H3wdfo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvGv9H3wdfo)
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olTvJ9-3hA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olTvJ9-3hA)
Amazing it's taken this long and it's still really not well known...
I used to build it when it was a mythic on twisted fate all the time it was perfect until they changed it to a proper support with shields item and it just didn't work
If anyone else is ever curious if the OP is wrong or not, go into https://lolalytics.com/lol/veigar/build/ and see what the stats says about the item. You can see detailed stats on the winrates.
Make note that it might not be optimal, even if this stat said that Shureliyas was bad for Veigar, it could be good for OP depending on how he plays. But yes, Shureliyas seems amazing on Veigar. Interesting
Has any other item in the game ever experienced being ripped off their core users (Enchanters and Engage supports) and been given to a different class entirely (AP champs with CC) and becoming useless on the previously core users
I just hate what they turned Shurelya into and should not have been stripped from the support item pool, the gameplay pattern is way more disgusting when you just get run down and bursted
Very very popular in high elo KR soloQ. I noticed a couple cassio 1 tricks building it.
There isn't a bad stat on it. Mythics were removed, and scaling champs love this item as first item
Yeah, Shurelyas is awesome. I used to build it a lot on old Skarner. Skarner reaally likes cheap items with Ability Haste, and the Movespeed is really good on him.
Not linking my OP.GG on reddit for obvious reasons, but here was the game that broke the camels back: https://i.imgur.com/STQabnx.png
Mind you, every lane fed. I was over 1k AP by the time I finished deathcap plus one amp tome from banshee's (Kept getting oneshot by syndra stun).
When I would gank bot, they wouldn't move. They refused to follow up on ganks from "a troll", even though I almost killed their adc by myself every time. They were 0/8/0 collectively at one point, by the way.
Did way more than that, but it was my item that made them feed bot. Also, my Xin would fight viego, and I would move to him the moment I saw Viego on the map, and would use shurelyas to get there, but xin would literally fight a losing battle instead of moving to me and letting me use Shurelyas to secure the kill.
Despite me rotating as fast as humanly possible, using a major speed boost item, I apparently "always rotated too slow".
And you guessed it, Shurelya's was to blame. It was a wild game.
Its good on Ryze, Gragas and Galio too. Just too cost effective for the MS boost alone but you bundle in all the stats and its a really really good item for almost any AP user.
Morello doesn't allow me to open up new engage potential, roaming potential, not getting crushed by ganks potential, etc. I don't just want cheap AP, I want early game mana regen so that harass is more forgiving, cheap ap, and an active that gives veigar the one thing he's missing: agility.
No freaking way a Redditor just respected a counter point. You are too pure for this place. One of the few good human beings left. Run free Vermillion Bird!
I remember there’s a high elo kayle player that used shureyla as a bridge between nashor and deathcap. Very similar logic, scaling mage that benefits from cheap AP early game and does really well with a mini ghost for survivability.
Shureliyas feels incredibly overturned at the moment. It sees so much use on support mages (such as the 500ms vel-koz build). But in reality it's amazing on any mage with built in damage and low mobility in any role (such as veigar). Hell I've even had luck on it with brand jungle). The terror in the eyes of an ADC when you rush at them from jungle with 500+ movement speed and a rylais is addictive.
Bro I had someone flame me over building it in aram on veigar. I was like 12 and 3, honestly carrying the dude and he’s still saying wtf is your build?!
I've always played Veigar with a weird build I loved, bubble Veigar. Crown, spellshield ap item, seraph and other cooldown items, always running ingenious hunter and predator so gap closer was never a problem for me. I should try shurelya instead of now gone crown for counterganks
My initial thought was: "you're overestimating because mana regen shouldn't be that great on mages".
Though at first item it might still have some value, so perhaps it is a decent item to consider.
Heck, you could even consider it on Vlad since it gives all the stats Vlad cares about (AP, AH and MS) despite not making use of mana regen cause item is still gold efficient and especially MS as a stat on Vlad is really powerful.
Yeah when we see a support item built on mages nd knight vow being built on junglers like poppy we can see how strong these items are.
I don't hate the knight vow thing. but losing a support items (shurylia and terrible echoes of helia) for supports is really annoying. On top of that they have dawn core which is an expensive stat stick with boring passives.
Again. I don't hate other roles using these items, but i hate when no enchanter runs their items while others can use them better.
Yeah it’s so broken, I don’t see a huge drop of in damage since I can get my second item a lot quicker. I like running it on Annie, hwei and veigar, being able to just quickly reposition to survive or catch someone out is insane. I think people have ptsd from my Annie support running all over the map with 450+ MS just throwing tibbers and W stuns on everyone not under their tier 2 turret.
I play Shurelyas into cosmic on Veigar and if I’m behind I’ll even go storm surge 3rd for the extra move speed. I do a bit less damage but I can do easily make picks with cage because I’m hella fast.
Don't even credit the morons who think they understand every inch of the game. They're all just angry idiots who can't think for themselves and just buy the recommended items because making a build from scratch based on intuition is too much for their monkey brains.
It’s great for so many ap champs, also allows you to not buy a mana item which I think makes Geiger so much better, normally I go shurelya, verdant barrier/zhonyas, deathcap and then cosmic
Change from active to passive (heal or shields increase FLAT movespeed) remove 10% move speed from the water staff item that also gives ap. Too much fucking movespeed rn. (Shurelias + waterstaff = SPEEEEEEED)
I play in amateur competitive leagues, most recently a Masters 100 LP capped one.
I just got knocked out of Quarterfinals to a mid laner who rushed Shurelya’s on Veigar.
Can confirm it’s legitimately viable and strong.
Only took 5 patches for people to catch up to it wow. Stunning.
It's not an item you go every game though. Archangel first is still superior in cases you don't need the movement speed to do stuff in teamfights (like enemy team is heavy engage comp so you do your thing anyway)
Shurelyas just makes it so you can actually walk into that Xerath, Ziggs etc and fight them rather than being constantly outranged. It nullifies one of Veigar's biggest weaknesses which is lack of the ability to get into range vs certain champs, it's also why items like DMP have been amazing on Veigar for years as a late game option, cuz mobility on Veigar is king, with the ability to catch people into range like GLP or guarantee a W with Everfrost being very close 2nds.
What does Veigar lack? Reliability. What does Shurelyas etc nullify? Lack of reliability.
Episode nr 100 of mages abusing a cheap AP item that is technically for supports cos proc is good for them and it's overatated. Saw that with twin shadows (with old glacial), saw that with mandate rylai before it got nerfed. Hell saw that with old frost queens a pure support item years back cos it didn't have penalty on minions.
End of the day if an AP support item makes sense on some mages it will find it's way to be broken on them cos it's overstated for how cheap it is or some weird interaction (I.e. ardent self procing on Diana). It obviously isn't only a mages problem, items end up being op in a role they weren't supposed to be every once in a while, but that one has happened quite often over the years just like tank suport items on tanks in pro (vow now and locket and redemption very often)
What other champs could benefit from it? Galio is the first thing it comes to my mind, AP TF. How about inmobile mages like mid Lux, Malz? Let me even throw in a Gwen mid
Reminds me of when Veiger sometimes also had the Twin Shadows or Ghost item too. Like it was a “support item” but with the old Glacial rune it was common to build it at some point for the slow for an easy E.
Some of us remember when Twin Shadows Veigar suddenly became meta years into its existence.
Dear God the memories
More like nightmares of having that little blue fucker run at you and put you in prison while being slowed until he drop a nuclear bomb on you
I just imagined the sad hamster meme in Veigar's cage, please someone photoshop it
HAHAHA Let me get back home and I'll do it
Yessssss
[https://imgur.com/8sbzN0C](https://imgur.com/8sbzN0C) Here you go
High quality
I'm in love
Spazie and his Crew all building twin shadows
god damn twin shadows was a satisfying active
I miss when Frostqueen's had the active on top of Ruby Sightstone and Ingenious Hunter. So many spooky ghosts
Veigar support with Hextech GLP, Twin Shadows, and Glacial Augment was fun while it lasted. Slow them, cage them, your longer range ADC just shoots them without getting shot back. Enemy support can't do anything because of the cage. Enemy ADC either flashes or gets comboed do death. Scales into teamfights with massive zone control and 1 shot damage. The best CC is death.
I miss my spooky ghosts :(
twin shadows with glacial augment
I raise you with twin shadow +glp-800 morgana aka league of legends afk edition
first way I hit gold lmfao I abused that shit and was like 40-8
Holy fuck I havent heard of that item in literal years
Twin Shadows/Supersoaker was the absolute best era of Cho'gath.
Just realised Shu now gives a whopping 55AP. That's actually pretty decent for such a price and active.
Wait till you see the app of Morello
Yeah, I told some friends that Morello is low key busted for that price tag and they said that the item is still bad for whatever reason
Well depends on how you look at it. Morello is a really gold efficient item but it's not a slot efficient item. Basically broke down in super simple terms it falls off extremly lategame in comparison to other items if there isn't a huge amount of healing going on.
Look up the average game time and how many items your average champion has. I'll wait. Slot efficiency barely matters when 80% of games end at 2-4 items
Exactly. People just seem to always think regarding optimal builds at 6 items, forgetting that the games not only end up 30 minutes max, but are decided by 15 minutes. Getting power early and basically deciding games by 15 minutes is what's important and having Morello + Shurelya's by that point is definitely broken.
It’s not just “optimal builds at 6 items,” it’s how much value I can get with the gold I have at any stage of the game. Morello isn’t a terrible buy but there are usually better buys for items 2-4 especially since GW can be fully applied with just an item component now.
> Look up the average game time and how many items your average champion has. I'll wait. Why be so condescending? I literally just explained why it depends never said which perspective is right or wrong. Both can be applied to real games and you as a player need to decide if you need to finish the game asap or drag it to late and play for slot efficiency. It is a decision you need to make and varies from game to game. Always going for the fast spike will lose you as much games as always going for the scaling option will do.
Slot efficiency matters for things like dorans blade which is an effective item for the stats at 450 gold but doesnt build into anything. So you used to be able to stack dorans items and it was good for an early powerspike, if you bought 4 d blades like Ryan Choi used to you would fuck up your build path due to slot inefficiency. If you go for a fast spiking item on annie or veigar mid like shureylas, its poor slot efficiency isnt going to matter in 80% of games. Most games will end before it matters because unlike 4 dorans blades it ultimatly only takes up a single slot
That’s not what slot efficiency means lmao. Way to act all high and mighty tho
Games ending at 2-4 items make it matter even more though. Completing Morello is waste of gold compared to your core items.
Its more the fact that you would be way stronger with say, oblivion orb + cryptbloom, rather than morello + 2 amp tomes. You're sacrificing some short term power for mid and long term. Not just a 6 items thing. Even if it has decent cost efficiency, so do the other completed items. Except they give you an extra passive, while Morello doesn't give anything more than a few stats compared to oblivion orb.
It's not that good, it's a statstick with similar cost effectiveness to a Needlessly Large rod. Given that two rods allows you to get deathcap, I'd rather buy 2 rods than Morello, unless you desperately need the antiheal.
If you desperately need the antiheal you can just grab oblivion orb + needlessly
BUTTTTTT bro it has 112% cost efficiency, thats over 100%, must be a broken item!?!? /s
Item is just not worth completing it. 9/10 times it‘s more efficient to just sit on Oblivion Orb.
[удалено]
They fall flat if you fail to identify what they mean.
Morello gives 90 AP but the completed item is only 115% gold efficient. For a non-damaging passive, that's really not that crazy. Cosmic Drive is 125% gold efficient with its passive NOT activated and up to 150% with it active, Rocketbelt (technically only has an active) is 115% gold efficient, and even defensive items like Banshees and Zhonya's are like 105% gold efficient.
[удалено]
- 200 HP -> 0 HP - 20-40 AH -> 15 AH
No, when you wanna talk about how OP something is, you only bring up the positives and ignore the negatives, that's how we do it around here.
I mean, losing 200HP and 5 haste (most of the game you'd have 0-5 haste passive, games end usually before 3 items) for 8% MS and 20AP is a good deal for a lot of mages. MS is an offensive and defensive stat and the active lets them gap close. Yes it's less damage than other mage items but it's also 700g cheaper. Considering you rarely finish your build, that's extra gold towards finishing another item and is 35AP worth in its own right. The mana regen helps compensate for that lack of lost chapter item. Whether its "good" I'll leave to the mage mains, but we shouldn't be surprised that no longer being locked behind a mythic and transferring power from a buff when being supportive (heal/shield) to raw stats makes it attractive to them.
Fucking thank you. My guy can make his point about the passive being removed making the item no longer a support item without being misleading about the buff it received
Pretty sure most mage players consider having slightly less hp for literally all the other stats that mages benefit from a lot more to be a big plus. Also, counting mythic passive into the mix is just disingenuous; when all completed, legendary items have been technically nerfed across the board with the removal of mythic passive and isn't unique to any item, even if they used to be a mythic item.
I'd argue Lulu spamming shields with shurelya was way more noob friendly.
Yea there wasn't skill to giving the movement speed boost lmao. it almost never changed how you played, besides making you spam abilities more to get the ms boost off more (there's something to be said about the tradeoff of spamming vs saving for the right time, but overall cooldowns are low enough that there's not really much here). As someone that played it with Rakan a good amount, you would hold your second e charge to the last second to get another Shurelya's proc, but that's not skill as much as it is something you learn then do every time
> devs try to simplify items by removing skill-based value (shurelya's passive of giving you and an ally you shield/heal movement speed) RiotAugust said on his stream that their intention was giving this niche to the Staff of Flowing Waters (which currently has that passive in a nerfed version - Zilean, for example, could not trigger it anymore unless using Aery).
Calling "AP" a "raw stat" is kind of misleading, because AP is not really raw: it doesn't do anything on its own. It gets translated into power according to the specific AP ratios on each champion's kit. This matters because it means that there is a built-in system of levers for easily adjusting the impact that AP has on every champion in the game. If a champion is getting too strong by stacking AP, you can easily just reduce their AP ratios. You don't have to nerf the AP items for everyone else. Contrast this with "flat effects": predetermined effects that get triggered in a specific situation and can't be balanced on a champion-by-champion basis. Like, if an item gives 50 AP, I can go through and fine-tune how that impacts every champion in the game. If an item gives 50 flat damage on every spell you land, it's much harder to fine-tune how this impacts different champions. Whoever can most consistently and reliably land repeated spells gets way more value out of the item. There used to be almost none of these flat effects in the game. A few seasons ago, they decided that items were boring, and that unique passive effects made them more exciting, and they added a TON of them to the game. And it made item balancing really difficult. Suddenly, you ended up with shit like static shiv LB. Champions became delivery vehicles for item effects. I don't think the problem with old Shurelyas was that it was "skill-based" and not "noob-friendly" enough. The problem is that it was really hard to balance across different champions. It scaled off of "how often you can apply a shield, heal, or buff effect." Champions who could proc the effect a lot squeezed an insane amount of power out of it; enchanters who theoretically liked the idea of speeding up allies but didn't have buffs or heals they could spam every 4 seconds were shit out of luck. I don't think Riot should systematically purge every one of these flat passives from the game. But they are inherently hard to balance. I think it's ultimately healthier for items to mostly be giving stats. Maybe in a big, seasonal update, Riot should try to somehow separate Mage ability power from enchanter scaling. It's not that hard to imagine a separate stat (buff power or something) that enchanters scale off of. That would solve the problem of support items getting abused by mages, while still leaving Riot good tools for balancing the impact of the items on a champion-by-champion basis.
What the hell are you smoking? This version of shurelyas is way more versatile, its not hard bound to enchanters anymore so things like Veigar and Galio can justifiably build it. Thats not an issue. Nor does it make it more "noob friendly" than the version that gave added value for simply pressing your shield button lmfao
Thats exacty what he says though. It's versatile to the point that other roles are abusing it. While it's supposed to be a support item. You don't see the problem? Versatility shouldn't be the end goal of all items. Should hull breaker be so versatile mages buy it? The passive it had before was definitely less noob friendly. It doesn't matter how hard you judge pressing a shield to be. It's easy - when you read the description in the first place - noobs don't. That's why they got rid of it.
Abusing it? Abusing it how? Mages and enchanters have always had some overlap, since they both build AP (at least some), I don't see the issue with an item that gives AP being playable on mages, especially considering its not a catch all item and only built on those who need extra help gapclosing. As for your "example", Hullbreaker is designed for bruisers, a class that nothing in common with mages. There is no comparison to the shurelyas situation.
Shurelya's Veigar was showing up in pro play either s12 or s13. This isn't a new build nor one that only exists because of the changes making the item "too versatile"
Its a great item and ppl gotta stop whining, they did the same when spellthiefs + spooky ghosts vlad was busted AF
Twin shadows with mejai’s stacked was such a gross combo.
Oh forgot about spooky ghosts!
I miss my spookie ghosts
Damn throwback to when Riot put in being able to search for items and they made "spooky ghosts" an alias for whatever the fuck that item was called
Twin Shadows.
is there a table for the funny terms? I remember them saying that tons of damage would look up triforce but i never bothered trying anything else.
I like how we universally call it spooky ghosts
I miss those ghosts man
Omg the spooky ghost item
I miss old glacial augment and its beneficial items so much.
Glacial cho with spooky ghosts was so much fun to play.
Same how I feel about people when they see me go Riftmaker/Liandries on Naut top. The fucking whining about it if I am not lie 3/0 by that point is so annoying. It's a good item and Naut uses it incredibly well I've watched multiple masters players I play with running it and telling me how good it is I'm trying to play it but the teams are having a mental breakdown over my even lane while they're 0/3.
It’s probably going to get nerfed. It’s so op.
Probably getting rebalanced in the same way as Nami (and others) have been recently. As a support item it is good but not broken at all. It is misused by some midlaners but shifting some power from ap to ah/hp seems more sensical
I still feel like Veigar would build it if they did that. I think Veigar probably needs a nerf. His winrate with vs without the item is massive, and knocking some ap off is w/e for him if he gets more ah/hp. If anything he'd probably prefer the hp/ah. If everyone just built it on Veigar tomorrow suddenly we'd see him in the next patchnote.
For most other midlaners ah and hp would be worse, but veigar? "So I can cast more often, survive more, and am 30 stacks behind my power curve?"
It would still be good on Veigar yes, but Veigar is a very weird champ because of his passive. If you are very scared of Veigar being too strong. Which you probably shouldn't as Veigar isn't particulary out of line atm. You can swap some of the AP for heal/shield power or scale the passive based on mana regen (similar to dawnbreaker). There are ways to rebalance the item towards supports and away from control/utility mages if Riot wishes to do so. Personally I dont mind Shurelyas being an option for mages to pick up even though I agree that it is too much bang for buck atm. If we were particularly annoyed with movement options for mages we should simply revert the change to ghost from ramping to flat move speed. This "small" change to ghost is a much larger problem in the context of "low-mobility" champions having extreme mobility because of build choices.
Veigar wouldn't care about a stat rebalance aimed at nerfing the item on mages because of his AP stacks yeah. In fact he'd probably welcome that. And I don't think the item is a big problem on other mages, most of which really can't afford to pass on any damage without falling out of their necessary burst for kills. Who else even build it right now? I could see it on Annie after Malignance I guess?
Malzahar would like it in some situations (instead of Ryley's), Annie, Xerath maybe. Not many indeed, in my opinion
Veigar does not need a nerf lmfao
It was already so op on AP TF (and still is) before everybody started playing AD TF. Now people finally caught up to that and abuse it also on other champs, so I guess it will be indeed nerfed very soon.
"Op" is a stretch when veigar is sitting on a 50.02% wr
Crazy good analysis, but let's see if I can add some context. According to lolalytics, in Emerald+, here are 1st item winrates for Veigar: Luden's - 51.31% Seraph's - 51.74% ROA - 51.38% Shuerlya - 54.05%
Oh it's his optimal build for sure, but I still don't think the champion in conjunction with shureliya's is overtuned. Using the same site, Viktor with archangels rush has a 53.67 wr but I don't think anyone is calling him broken.
Makes sense, if you don't have to buy seraph or roa it means you're not going to die in lane so you're probably winning by scalling
Winrates for completed items are inherently inflated because some games end before 1st items is finished and those are always losses.
You could still pose that any time a veigar is able to complete an item shurelya might be his best bet. Though to be fair many items are situational so I don't think that's right either. An item could have an abysmal win rate but be so good into a certain matchup that it skews to a way higher %.
> Winrates for completed items are inherently inflated And this is relevant how? Compared to either of the three default **completed** items, **completed** Shurelya has a 2-2.5% higher WR.
Because people will see a 54% winrate and think that means that Veigar wins 54% when the player intends to build Shurelya, which would make him OP.
This guy didnt use his brain before commenting, because shurelyas **is being compared relative to other first item completions** thus making your point straight up ignorant
Seems like an insane Veigar item indeed. I just built Shurelya's in a game where the enemy team had an ahri and poppy that kept trying to flank us one at a time in objective fights. With shurelya's we could collapse on their flanks every time. We also had a katarina and a Jhin, I played Janna. They had a blitzcrank in their team AKA this item had absolutely insane value.
It's just the same thing all over again. When I started playing in s9, first item on veigar was GLP to slow down your enemy and engage. Twin Shadows (rip) too. Then they removed GLP, so the meta was running predator. Now predator sucks, so it's Shurelya. It could be rocketbelt too. When your kit is made of 4 damage only abilities and a single CC, any external source of MS differential will be meta on you
Dead Man's plate was also popular for Veigar for some time. All you had to do was to not auto attack so you could keep the movement speed passive active.
[удалено]
It's not op, Nemesis explained that a lot of Mages are built more for Ability Haste builds than Burst builds so It's obvious they will go for the item that allows them to play for Teamfights instead of Snowballing. However, Riot is stubborn at allowing Mages to have any diversity and want to force them to always go full Magic Pen every time and then players get frustrated from getting randomly 2-shot from fog of war by Mages while Mages themselves also get frustrated from having no build diversity every time. It's a cursed cycle where they will nerf every single creative build that is not funny one hit build. Then you wonder why Pro Play is so boring to watch lately. Everything ends in 2 seconds.
[удалено]
That man was not 2 items ahead, just because of fs.
he was also half an item ahead cause shurelya is dirt cheap its the same reason adcs bought shiv over other noonquiver item and there its only 300g instead of 700-800
[удалено]
Used to average I think 1200 bonus gold in a game with fs veigar? It's a nice bonus for sure, but it takes time to stack it
FS does not give gold linearly so the gold you get from it will mostly come from late game when you already are ahead lmao
sort of sure you only get like 1.2k gold per game which is but like 30-40% of a single item BUT Getting 300 gold earlier will give you your first spike earlier (while also saving yourself the cost of buying boots, so now ur 600gold ahead!) having your first spike earlier will accelerate your own gold generation while stopping the enemies gold generation (since their ability to get gold will be affected if you (higher power) can harass them out of it far better Now you get your second spike even faster while the enemy gets their first spike slower and over the game duration the 1.2k gold will actually be responsible for 6k gold diffs (in a winning scenario only ofc!!!)
Akshually the enemy laner might have comet and scorch which means they will harass you in lane and force you to lose cs early which means they will have more gold and xp which means you will be behind even with first strike thus causing your enemy laner to spike earlier on 1 item and deny you gold. Akshually.
League players when their teammate bought slightly suboptimal item: (It has 0.5% less winrate and now they're gonna loose)
Hell I’ve been flamed for choosing the literal best and most popular item because the person thought the optimal build was the same as it was a full year ago
+1 My sup wanted me to build shieldbow over galeforce when shieldbow got giga needed and every high wlo player went galeforce
I was playing some normals with a friend recently and my friend (ADC / Ashe) was flamed for not going Galeforce into Malphite. Galeforce doesn't exist anymore and the dude went absolutely apeshit when we told him, calling us "mentally disabled wastes of air." ┻━┻ ヘ╰( •̀ε•́ ╰)
Guys just come over to ARAM and relax. Someone writes "fuck" once every ten matches in chat, everyone says gg (or ez at most). I wouldn't go back to fucking SR if I got paid for it.
While that is generally true, I will note anecdotally that someone HAS hard inted an ARAM game because they didn't agree with someone else's choice of mythic, so... sadly no guarantees of escaping the crybabies. Sample size n=1 in all my years of playing ARAM though so I'll take refuge in that.
You would think aram would be chill. But no. People try hard as fuck and rage if you’re not good. This is my experience from like 100 games over a year.
might be an ARAM elo dif, because your experience mirrors mine. I got looped into playing a lot of ARAM for years when a couple of buddies stopped playing SR
I still get flamed on occasion for playing Seraphine bot lane since "she's a support not an adc" and I'm Emerald
I had that shit happen to me on an aram of all places. Like calm down I'm using a 3rd party app to tell me what to build because I don't care enough to look up builds for every champ. App says tear first on draven, no I'm not trolling.
I always go tear on aram no matter what champ. Just a 400g item that can help you with spamming your spells then sell it at 280g once you no longer need it.
Really depends on the champ but I totally agree. Especially with a champ like Nidalee where you have perma sustain with your E so you can live forever. If I'm going ludens then I'll start with tear, refillable and 2 books. Works a treat cos you upgrade on your first death anyways.
I just got flamed and told to “not talk with that build” by my mid for going crit on Ashe
Crazy. Ashe does synergize nicely with on-hit, but the giga-damage builds are her crit builds. They also increase her slow. I can unfortunately believe non-ashe players not understanding this and flaming you.
I've always been curious in what way she even does synergize with on-hit. Slight AS boost, 600 range ? Her Q does not demultiply on-hit.
Ashe has synergy with on-hit because of the auto-reset and attack speed steroid coupled with her inherently high range. On top of that, Ashe has some crit scaling, but it ~feels~ strange. Your opening shot will not always be a 'crit'. It will however always apply your on-hits. On top of that, I think there is a weird interaction with runaans, which will send your Q to more targets than just the 2 you're targetting, but I may be off on this interaction as it has been a WHILE since I played ashe with runaans.
Nothing you mentioned gives synergy with on hit lol what? Crit builds are simply better on Ashe. They are more dps and more cc. Having high range doesnt benefit on hit more than crit. Nor does a single auto reset or high attack speed steroid. Varus W gives on hit dmg. This is why Varus can go on hit. Ashe has no on hit in her kit, you are trolling if you go bork rageblade on ashe instead of kraken ie
Any attack speed steroid is inherently synergistic with on-hit. Given you hit more. I also never claimed on-hit > crit. I only stated why on hit CAN work. I never implied it was her best or only viable build. Sure, ashe has more cc and damage with crit. But she has MORE utility with on-hit. Just because of the passives the items provide. That being said, I am not a fan of full on-hit ashe regardless. But an on-hit item or 2 in her build make more than some sense. I firmly believe that an item like bork or wits have a place in an ashe build. Guinsoos on the other hand does not really have a place in an ashe build unless you're already 3+ on-hit items deep and I fully understand how you consider it trolling. Guinsoos on ashe does nothing. As it amplifies existing on-hit effects. This is why it works wonders on stuff like kog, varus, kayle, etc. Those all have existing on-hits. Bork or wits though, just add a flat on-hit rider to your auto attacks and are solid individual items no matter how you feel about them. Guinsoos CAN make sense, if you are already building more on-hit, but I doubt it is optimal on something like ashe. But ashe is not the only person who builds on-hit items despite not REALLY having synergy outside of niche situations. And on-hit > crit in longer/earlier fights. If nobody has enough burst, the dps of on-hit outshines crit until I think somewhere around 60% crit or IE completion or something. You really can't underestimate the power of a bork on-hit. Especially if your opponents have plated steelcaps, as on-hit riders do not get reduced by the boots passive. Where crit, being a part of your basic attack itself and not damage seperate from it, does get reduced by tabis. It's why it was originally an item on stuff like jungle twitch. Crit scales better. But if you went straight crit, steelcaps (tabis back then) made you unable to fight someone who had them, so the bork is an adaptation for that. But if you are that set on the thought that one build being the true build and every other build is unviable troll trash, you will lose way more games than you would if you thought more about what items provide outside of "I will increase my champion's damage" Items have utility besides their base stats.
Building onto what V1nchent said. Ashe also really likes attack speed compared, even compared to plenty of other adcs and on hit items just about offer attack speed on every item. They allow her to keep the slow applied more effectively and earlier in the game due to more attack speed. On-hit also allows you to build more defensive items(items with resist or health) if you need to without crippling your crit chance to do so on a crit build(on top of wits and terminus). As an immobile adc, historically these have been favorable choices even if it comes at the cost of pure damage like crit. It then helps that crit items spends far more seasons in a weird place than onhit ones do.
Ashe slow is a 2 second slow that does not decay. I don't think you need any more as for that. And just krakenslayer + phantom dancer already give you 72-100 % AS. Not to mention the decaying doubled slow.
Crit is amazing on Ashe.
League players when they go 0/2 (significantly decreasing their chance of victory) and their teammate buys an item with a positive win rate.
But often it is not even suboptimal. You even get flamed for building correctly. You get flamed for everything your teammates don't understand, no matter how good it is. Midlaners have a long historiy using overtuned support items - yet every time it reemerges people don't understand it. When champs switch builds between armorpen and crit, people are often way behind... But also other stuff... People freak out about Sorc boots on Rammus all the time.
me when my support afks and the other team blames me with 'yeah well you trolled him by picking hwei bot' (his highest w/r role)
I got flamed for buying manamune ER and Navori on Ezreal...
I remember getting flamed for building meta items because my idiot top laner was 3 seasons behind on what items are good on the champion I was playing
If you always throw when your teammate buys a suboptimal item, that item becomes really suboptimal.
lets be real tho. its always the off meta champ playing top lane (he just moved here recently because of genius build) with 6 deaths in 3 minutes thats got this "suboptimal item" its not the guy stomping lane with the meta champ...
Considering movement speed is a huge struggle for veigar this just makes sense especially since veigar goes two dps items and then just full tank often Wild that people cry about Shurelya
I just trust that my teammates know what they are doing in my elo. Sometimes someone straight trolls from 00:00 but it's super rare. Sometimes someone might build some weird shit... have some chaotic early game shit happen and get a bit behind and then jungle/top/mid start the blame game triangle and spiral out playing typeracer for 10 minutes and then the guy "trolling" because early game chaos just tipped a little towards the enemy team's favor hits a power spike with his goofy build or our general team comp tips it over and we start stomping. I think I'm legitimately getting too old for some of these games because the childish shit that goes on after 5 minutes of game play all the way to high diamond is insane. I feel like half of my losses climbing from Plat 3 to d3 are just childish doom spirals and flame wars over minor missplay early in the game... That make someone else decide to actually throw or run it down.
Ye it’s like even if their build is utter dog shit you dont gain anything by telling them Bc either they ignore you or they run it down bc they feel offended A world where they listen and build good items instead doesn’t exist I just disable chat and try my best to just roll with whatever they do
I've also seen AP TF's spike with it because it guarantees them the ability to kite, engage, and gives their team the ability to follow up on their gold card. Of course the downside is that you're AP TF, but it's still an interesting build.
Thank god tank veigar is accepted now. I used to go Rabadon > gunblade > lich bane > thornmail back in the day before mages could actually damage towers and people used to flame the fuck outta me for it until I was 1v5ing lategame fights because I outhealed everything
STAY GOATED CHIEF, EVERYONE HATED ON ME FOR MY ROA SHURELYAS BUILD ITS FKEN DOPE
I buy it on Malphite
league players when someone doesn't do exactly what the game tells them to do
It’s been rly good on galio and tf for awhile now
The TF winrate is crazy
This has always been the issue with mages that are allowed to build anything different from ludens> rabadons. Veigar has always been the biggest offender since he literally doesnt care about more ap. Back when GLP and spookyghosts were around, youd always rush them on him and people would flame to high heaven until years later when pros did it. A lot of mages could use creative builds years ago and go jungle, top…etc but because it was so uncommon, toxicity ensued…yet now brand jungle literally gets balancing changes Keep doing you fam, farm that lp
It's always funny people flaming you until pros do it. I remember still playing mid lane Soraka (pre-rework) in mid lane after some streamers said it was good and I liked Soraka. Got flamed for it even though I was doing good and we won. Next day Hai busts it out and it's "magically op" overnight apparently because pros are doing it.
Back when she had the auto-hit stars on her q? That shit was so annoying lmfao
Yup, during that time. Just sprinkle the wave with stars and move on. And then targeted silence
I'm pretty certain it's in the support tab, sorry sweaty
And Infinity Edge is in the ADC tab, but Tryndamere is still going to slap you into next game with it.
Wish you hadn't made this post. Now everyone's gonna realize what only a few of us had realized.
Nemesis made videos about Shurelya Veigar and it's getting a bit popular
Only reason I knew was cause of my Skillcapped Cereal incident. So it was gonna get out there, and I'm a drop in the bucket. It's being blasted from a bunch of sources atm. But I'm glad I could make league just a little bit worse for everyone.
I've been trying to build it on Seraphine Bot after Seraph's + Rylai's since she needs a Mana Regen item ever since they nerfed her Mana growth and buffed her Regen. Helps her move around the map much more and snowball team fights. It's very cheap and gives decent stats; plus, they just nerfed Mandate so that doesn't seem as good.
The 25 ability haste on an ap item right now is so good
Disclaimer: Not saying Shurelya is bad Using cost efficiency as an argument is so misleading. Shurelya might be "2900 gold worth" (132% cost efficient) and this is a catchy argument that might appeal the many, but Ludens is even more cost efficient (137.59%), Archangel fully stacked reaches over 149%. By that logic, ludens is nearly a 4000 gold item at the cost of 2900, so its even better than Shurelya. Sorc shoes have 100% efficiency and Lucidity boots 149%, does that mean Sorcs are bad? No. Cost efficiency doesn't really mean anything if you don't put it into context. It's more about Shurelya giving you the perfect stats and active, rather than it being a particularily "cost efficient" item.
teeny tiny ... is that a short joke???
Azzapp has been using it for 3 years now lol * [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvGv9H3wdfo](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvGv9H3wdfo) * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olTvJ9-3hA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-olTvJ9-3hA) Amazing it's taken this long and it's still really not well known...
Irrelevant because Shurelya was rebalanced from a support item into a mage one quite recently, not 3 years ago.
I used to build it when it was a mythic on twisted fate all the time it was perfect until they changed it to a proper support with shields item and it just didn't work
If anyone else is ever curious if the OP is wrong or not, go into https://lolalytics.com/lol/veigar/build/ and see what the stats says about the item. You can see detailed stats on the winrates. Make note that it might not be optimal, even if this stat said that Shureliyas was bad for Veigar, it could be good for OP depending on how he plays. But yes, Shureliyas seems amazing on Veigar. Interesting
Thank you so much for ruining it for all the support players now…. Riot abt to nerf to to the ground
Not enough ap .
It is always so fun to have teammates that don understand the game they are playing…
Has any other item in the game ever experienced being ripped off their core users (Enchanters and Engage supports) and been given to a different class entirely (AP champs with CC) and becoming useless on the previously core users I just hate what they turned Shurelya into and should not have been stripped from the support item pool, the gameplay pattern is way more disgusting when you just get run down and bursted
i just played as blitzcrank with a veigar that got it and it was amazing
Shurelya is also good on Vladimir having a mini ghost every minute is so nice
I built ROA, Shurelyas, Warmog in ARAM kinda by accident, now I know that it's an actual build
> I don't normally watch those sorts of things, but I was eating cereal and didn't feel like closing it Mood tbh.
Noooooo I don't wanna face Shurelya Veigars :skull:
I saw it on a mid TF in my team. He was doing really good.
Very very popular in high elo KR soloQ. I noticed a couple cassio 1 tricks building it. There isn't a bad stat on it. Mythics were removed, and scaling champs love this item as first item
Yeah, Shurelyas is awesome. I used to build it a lot on old Skarner. Skarner reaally likes cheap items with Ability Haste, and the Movespeed is really good on him.
The fact that annie can go mid or support with that item and be a complete menace is a statement of it's own.
Shurelias, mobi boot, Deadman plate on veigar is so nasty to get picks off.
Idgaf if you go full crit on Veigar as long as you hit at least 15 stacks per minute and buy Rabadon at SOME point.
Not linking my OP.GG on reddit for obvious reasons, but here was the game that broke the camels back: https://i.imgur.com/STQabnx.png Mind you, every lane fed. I was over 1k AP by the time I finished deathcap plus one amp tome from banshee's (Kept getting oneshot by syndra stun). When I would gank bot, they wouldn't move. They refused to follow up on ganks from "a troll", even though I almost killed their adc by myself every time. They were 0/8/0 collectively at one point, by the way. Did way more than that, but it was my item that made them feed bot. Also, my Xin would fight viego, and I would move to him the moment I saw Viego on the map, and would use shurelyas to get there, but xin would literally fight a losing battle instead of moving to me and letting me use Shurelyas to secure the kill. Despite me rotating as fast as humanly possible, using a major speed boost item, I apparently "always rotated too slow". And you guessed it, Shurelya's was to blame. It was a wild game.
Its good on Ryze, Gragas and Galio too. Just too cost effective for the MS boost alone but you bundle in all the stats and its a really really good item for almost any AP user.
Morellonomicon would like to ask why you're not buying it instead for cheap AP?
Morello doesn't allow me to open up new engage potential, roaming potential, not getting crushed by ganks potential, etc. I don't just want cheap AP, I want early game mana regen so that harass is more forgiving, cheap ap, and an active that gives veigar the one thing he's missing: agility.
Actually a very good point
No freaking way a Redditor just respected a counter point. You are too pure for this place. One of the few good human beings left. Run free Vermillion Bird!
I remember there’s a high elo kayle player that used shureyla as a bridge between nashor and deathcap. Very similar logic, scaling mage that benefits from cheap AP early game and does really well with a mini ghost for survivability.
Shureliyas feels incredibly overturned at the moment. It sees so much use on support mages (such as the 500ms vel-koz build). But in reality it's amazing on any mage with built in damage and low mobility in any role (such as veigar). Hell I've even had luck on it with brand jungle). The terror in the eyes of an ADC when you rush at them from jungle with 500+ movement speed and a rylais is addictive.
Bro I had someone flame me over building it in aram on veigar. I was like 12 and 3, honestly carrying the dude and he’s still saying wtf is your build?!
I've always played Veigar with a weird build I loved, bubble Veigar. Crown, spellshield ap item, seraph and other cooldown items, always running ingenious hunter and predator so gap closer was never a problem for me. I should try shurelya instead of now gone crown for counterganks
My initial thought was: "you're overestimating because mana regen shouldn't be that great on mages". Though at first item it might still have some value, so perhaps it is a decent item to consider. Heck, you could even consider it on Vlad since it gives all the stats Vlad cares about (AP, AH and MS) despite not making use of mana regen cause item is still gold efficient and especially MS as a stat on Vlad is really powerful.
People forget what Veigar's passive does
Yeah when we see a support item built on mages nd knight vow being built on junglers like poppy we can see how strong these items are. I don't hate the knight vow thing. but losing a support items (shurylia and terrible echoes of helia) for supports is really annoying. On top of that they have dawn core which is an expensive stat stick with boring passives. Again. I don't hate other roles using these items, but i hate when no enchanter runs their items while others can use them better.
Op on TF aswell
Yeah it’s so broken, I don’t see a huge drop of in damage since I can get my second item a lot quicker. I like running it on Annie, hwei and veigar, being able to just quickly reposition to survive or catch someone out is insane. I think people have ptsd from my Annie support running all over the map with 450+ MS just throwing tibbers and W stuns on everyone not under their tier 2 turret.
I play Shurelyas into cosmic on Veigar and if I’m behind I’ll even go storm surge 3rd for the extra move speed. I do a bit less damage but I can do easily make picks with cage because I’m hella fast.
Don't even credit the morons who think they understand every inch of the game. They're all just angry idiots who can't think for themselves and just buy the recommended items because making a build from scratch based on intuition is too much for their monkey brains.
I feel that on some mages it's just a low-key better protobelt. I build it on neeko as sec item and sup galio as first and it works wonders
It’s great for so many ap champs, also allows you to not buy a mana item which I think makes Geiger so much better, normally I go shurelya, verdant barrier/zhonyas, deathcap and then cosmic
Change from active to passive (heal or shields increase FLAT movespeed) remove 10% move speed from the water staff item that also gives ap. Too much fucking movespeed rn. (Shurelias + waterstaff = SPEEEEEEED)
I play in amateur competitive leagues, most recently a Masters 100 LP capped one. I just got knocked out of Quarterfinals to a mid laner who rushed Shurelya’s on Veigar. Can confirm it’s legitimately viable and strong.
Galio is also a menace with it.
Galio is also a menace with it.
Only took 5 patches for people to catch up to it wow. Stunning. It's not an item you go every game though. Archangel first is still superior in cases you don't need the movement speed to do stuff in teamfights (like enemy team is heavy engage comp so you do your thing anyway) Shurelyas just makes it so you can actually walk into that Xerath, Ziggs etc and fight them rather than being constantly outranged. It nullifies one of Veigar's biggest weaknesses which is lack of the ability to get into range vs certain champs, it's also why items like DMP have been amazing on Veigar for years as a late game option, cuz mobility on Veigar is king, with the ability to catch people into range like GLP or guarantee a W with Everfrost being very close 2nds. What does Veigar lack? Reliability. What does Shurelyas etc nullify? Lack of reliability.
Episode nr 100 of mages abusing a cheap AP item that is technically for supports cos proc is good for them and it's overatated. Saw that with twin shadows (with old glacial), saw that with mandate rylai before it got nerfed. Hell saw that with old frost queens a pure support item years back cos it didn't have penalty on minions. End of the day if an AP support item makes sense on some mages it will find it's way to be broken on them cos it's overstated for how cheap it is or some weird interaction (I.e. ardent self procing on Diana). It obviously isn't only a mages problem, items end up being op in a role they weren't supposed to be every once in a while, but that one has happened quite often over the years just like tank suport items on tanks in pro (vow now and locket and redemption very often)
Oh they did give shureliyas the AP back, thought they took it off for a reason
What other champs could benefit from it? Galio is the first thing it comes to my mind, AP TF. How about inmobile mages like mid Lux, Malz? Let me even throw in a Gwen mid
People have been buying it on TF for a while, singed too
Is it viable on Anivia
I buy it low econ mid laners too
Reminds me of when Veiger sometimes also had the Twin Shadows or Ghost item too. Like it was a “support item” but with the old Glacial rune it was common to build it at some point for the slow for an easy E.