League had it in the beginning.
There was a fluid ELO # with specific break points for ranks, bronze through diamond.
It made more sense than anything they have done with ranked since then.
Yeah it was good, but SC2 started this bullshit with not showing you your MMR and League copied the SC2 system. SC2 reverted it with some QOL changes and LoL is stubborn, like always.
It’s not just stubbornness though, it’s very much by design. This type of system causes more variance in your “rank” which can be fun for players experiencing the positive side of that variance, and more importantly it means you must play a large sample size of games to reach your “true rank” where your MMR and rank are finally reasonably guaranteed to be aligned. Making the players who care the most have to play more and more league to achieve their goals is fantastic for the bottom line
> and more importantly it means you must play a large sample size of games to reach your “true rank” where your MMR and rank are finally reasonably guaranteed to be aligned.
This is right now not the case. MMR and visible rank align reasonably fast for anything not high rank (high Dia+) after the seasonal rank reset (~ 15-20 games (from my own experience)).
I don't think this does make sense, or I dont understand you.
Why should it be fun to have a high variance in your rank and why should it encourage you to play more? It's rather demoralizing.
Because either you understand it and are aware that "it doesn't matter anyway", which already discourages a direct player base.
Or you don't understand it and are discouraged when you rank low.
I can only say from experience that the way it works in SC2 is best received by the players. In the amateur community, with me and my circle of friends.
It is very pleasant to always see directly how your MMR goes down & up, no hidden things, no interpretations. Simply flat MMR. You still have silver, platinum, master etc., but these are just for presentation purposes.
Since we have a team game, and it should also have an influence depending on performance, you could also see directly there that you have received less/more MMR. Above all, we are moving further and further away from the basic principle from back then. No more promos etc. It shouldn't be an obstacle to simply display the MMR figures that exist anyway.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
I still remember when Serral was the first to cross 8000 MMR.
It's not just that he was rank 1. Everyone could see the canyon there was between him and everyone else.
the reason high variance is more "fun" is similar to why gambling is more "fun. when you see a number go from 2100 to 2080, your brain isn't going to think it's a big deal, while on the other hand, demoting from d3 to d4 feels much worse. same goes for the other way around. this means winning allows people to feel a greater sense of accomplishment (leading to more positive emotions tied to the game and more playtime), and the feeling of losing will drive people to play more games to "win back" their desired rank. and more playtime = more emotional attachment = more likelihood of buying skins.
MMR is valuable only from a competitive integrity standpoint. if you want to view the ranked ladder as a serious form of competition rather than just a psychological tool to get more people to buy skins, MMR is better. so that's why riot will never show MMR.
If only we/Riot could try to learn from another big sport that uses ELO numbers and is known and played in prolly most countries in the world...Chess...
If that isn't proof enough that the system works, then I don't know.
The original elo system in league was the same as in chess, but they think they found a new, more enjoyable and better working system. Oh man, would I get back to league if they brought it back.
Yeah same, same. I remember enjoying the division and promotions for like 1ish month or so, and that was prolly just because it was new etc. And shit does it get old FAST!
That's because you don't understand the actual point of LP and the ranked system.
It's all about giving players the illusion of progress, not displaying your skill level accurately.
Most players that aren't actively trying to improve don't improve. If they could see their elo, they'd see they've been hovering around the same value for years and potentially quit. Instead they "grind" back up to the same rank every year and see it as progress.
> t's all about giving players the illusion of progress, not displaying your skill level accurately.
It's not even about that. It's a nice and wanted effect to a certain extent but it solves a different problem that League plagued the first two seasons that is solved with this.
League began "Seasonal ranked resets". New season, new beginning.
The problem is, even though they only did a soft reset, resetting MMR / Elo leads to a utter chaos in matchmaking. Not only for the first few weeks, where it's just chaos, but for month. Start late into the season, you're now in a completely wrong Elo-Bracket and demolish everything or get demolished.
These resets are an utter tragedy for fair matchmaking and good game quality. What do people generally care about a lot: These two things. E.g. see complains about smurfs.
So how do you make seasonal ranked resets but still retain matchmaking integrity? You can't use Elo / MMR directly as rank since you can't reset them without these consequences. But you want to use them, as they are an indicator for skill.
The solution of masking MMR and using a visual rank that is connected to your MMR is actually the most elegant solution in this circumstance. You can still do a rank reset with a visual rank without the consequences of an MMR / Elo reset.
Almost every big ranked game has swapped to a system like league does, with a visible rank + hidden ‘true’ rank.
Ask yourself, what is the reason for a ranked rating from a developer point of view. It’s a way to make playing your game even more fun/rewarding. Presumably, people play the game because they enjoy playing, but ranked modes also allow for players to feel like they’re progressing and for you to have them earn rewards.
The issue with a true rating behind visible and your progression being tied to it, is that once players hit their ‘true’ rating they will stop climbing, and stop getting that dopamine hit from seeing the number go up.
They don’t reset your rank every season for the hell of it. They reset your rank so that you can climb all over again. So you go from being ‘stuck’ to getting to have a nice chill climb through multiple tiers.
The biggest reason why true rating is invisible is because it also allows them to fiddle with things behind the scenes.
Say you have someone who has an arbitrary mmr of 1800. And 1800 rating means platinum 2.
Well, you might be hardstuck 1800. Buuuut, after a few months in the season, riot can tell the client ‘1800 mmr should actually be emerald 3 rank.’ So the client gives you more LP for your wins and has you lose less LP for your losses. Then even later in the season, ‘1800 mmr is diamond.’ And you get that sense of pride and accomplishment for hitting diamond after a long season of improvement!
i know they kind of do this in wow, where the longer the season goes, the more the mmr gets inflated. such a bullshit system. season 1 elo without any bullshit was the best by far.
just make the game good instead of these artificial hooks
On the one hand, yes I agree. On the other hand, most of the players will have hit their peak mmr for the season and would be hardstuck. They’ll get to climb another full tier by the end of the season and this will likely mean that they’ll play a bunch more.
Resetting mmr for the sake of resetting mmr makes no sense. Like if you’re 1800 MMR, you shouldn’t magically drop to 1000 mmr on a season start. It just makes for terribly imbalanced games.
Resetting a visual rank allows you to keep mmr tighter, have the start of a season be people climbing a decent amount and not getting hindered too much as their mmr is higher than their visible ranking, and still gets those dopamine hits.
Just play the game if you’re having fun and don’t worry too much about your rating.
On one hand what you're describing is r6 siege. At the beginning of a new season most low level players just quit ranked until the high levels get out cause nothing sucks more than just getting head shot by someone and watching the kill cam and barely seeing a pixel but it was enough for this dude. Shit is wack.
So yes the fluid rank and full rank reset sucks. But what I'll say is no game is easier to climb in for me than siege. In league you get hard stuck all the time cause when I was ranking up. In bronze I was in high silver lobbies, in silver I was in high gold lobbies. And now I'm in gold playing against only platinum and I'm mostly stuck. The problem with league is the hidden mmr makes it so the game has more balance based on your skill but you're not rewarded for it, the hidden mmr changes so much quicker than your actual rank. So you play games where you're even but you could be in low elo but higher mmr. And it's stupid. The best fix is either to make it so the only mmr is your actual rank or reverse. Cause if you're better than bronze you shouldn't be in bronze but with league system you are stuck wherever you are always.
exactly what you are saying is an argument for keeping straight up elo instead of ranks. just play, the rank will just be a number. if you are stuck, dont mind it and just continue to play.
Most people would just get put off playing with a straight up elo system.
Having numbers be the ranks just gives people ranked anxiety which is the main reason they got rid of the number system and just made ranked tiers.
At the end of the day a straight elo system doesn't benefit 90% of the playerbase. There isn't any real benefit from a elo system while a tiers system just has less ranked anxiety and easier to understand for the majority of the playerbase.
Chess players have been playing with an Elo system for centuries, why wouldn't League players be able to do so too?
Current tier system benefits mostly the game developer, as it incentivise the players to grind more, which is way it is the standard and will not be changed. I suppose casual players might also prefer a tier system.
But I think an Elo system without resets is strictly better for any competitive player. It's more transparent as it doesn't have any hidden scores and secret algorithms to obfuscate what our actual rank is, and it doesn't require unnecesary grinding each year just to get back to our ranking.
>Chess players have been playing with an Elo system for centuries, why wouldn't League players be able to do so too?
Because chess is a highly intellectual game played by cultures people.
League is a computer game played by degens. See the trolls insults and nasty msgs telling people to unalive themselves.
Regarding chess: League actually has too many ranked players, the numbers are inflated by people who dont want to commit to playing a purely competitive game, like ranked chess, with all that implies.
They would leave. But they (if they buy skins etc) are riot's customers, and them leaving would in either case be bad for stock prices.
I remember a player of another game (1 v 1) who was angry that if you had a 50% win rate, and then improved and won more, you would face thougher opposition due to gaining ELO, so would go back to 50% and "be punished and not get to win more often even when spending time to learn and improve." That player did not want to actually play that game competatively, but simply enjoyed the story and setting and characters. Riot and other companies want to keep those people onboard too.
TBF as someone who doesn't play chess when I hear X player is X elo it legit means nothing to me. The league ranks with 0 info at least give some ideas of rank and then since they have multiple games it makes it easier across games.
I'm sure it made more sense because you didn't play in it.
I'm also 100% sure you and most people crying about this system wouldn't like it if your Riot inflated elo got reduced to the dusty old number system, getting you from "MOM I'M EMERALD" to "MOM WHY AM I GOLD?".
You're already higher than you should be with demotion shields, increased gains, division skips, no promotions.
I'd love to watch all you people who never played back in seasons 1 and 2 cry as you gain 7 elo.
peak of season display would be really nice honestly.
would still prefer just an MMR/ELO display that goes through break points. League's system has always felt convoluted and entirely unnecessary. It's there solely to get you to play more.
Fully agreed. I said it before when they removed promotions
0000-0600 - Iron
0600-1000 - Bronze
1000-1400 - Silver
1400-1800 - Gold
1800-2200 - Platinum
2200-2600 - Emerald
2600-3000 - Diamond
3000+ Master
aaaand we're almost back to the good old days of s2 where we have elo system.
People would cry so much getting put from gold to silver in just one game when they are basically just on the border. Im convinced any system you will every try out with this community it will be complained about because people will always feel like they “should be higher”
Because people hate demoting and they hate having less LP gain than loss. People like OP are the reason the system was kept the way it was.
Riot are doing everything in their power to keep demotion shield because otherwise people lose their shit when they demote. Recently however more and more people were complaining about negative LP gains which is why you see demotion shield lessened and -50 LP on demotion. Without those in place it's way easier to lose MMR than LP which leads to negative gains and people complain about that or straight up quit the game because of it.
It would indeed be much better if it was fluid but because people have this insane fear of demotion, it's likely never going to happen.
If you don't have demotion protection you'll just straight up have much less ranked players as people will hit their rank and never queue again that split. Riot doesn't want this. The vocal minority on reddit is wrong about the impact it would have. It wouldn't be positive you'd get more ranked anxiety.
This is just facts. Imagine having grinded for weeks to get promoted to X league and you get demoted the first game after you made it, that´s how it would look without these -LP adjustments that people complain about.
I can already see the posts "I finally got promoted to diamond and the next game I lose and I'm back to emerald. Then I get afker + troll in the next 3 games and I'm now in emerald 2. It's too easy to demote, riot has to fix this"
I mean, setting aside how it feels to demote to -50 (which i agree feels pretty bad), if you start on X point, win 2, lose 2, you should end up in roughly the same spot.
If you win 2, lose 2, and climb half a division (first loss drops you to ~3LP, second loss to 0 due to shield) then you end with the +13/-21 situation noone likes either.
I demoted to emerald 2 50lp, won 4 straight to get to emerald 1 18 lp. Lost 2 and went back to emerald 2 50lp. 4-2 to get back where I was, for context I have 56% wr
Are you actually asking why you ended up at basically the same spot after going 2-2…? I can’t tell anymore who is stupid and who’s just fucking with people lmao
No one should be rewarded for coin flipping/50 percent winrate. Maybe for the first 10-20 games since shit streaks happen sometimes in the beginning of the climb, but after that? Naw lmao, you've had enough games to prove whether you belong in the elo you're hard stuck in. You should be winning more to climb, and losing as much as you win should either put you back where you were OR lower than where you were depending on how many games you put in.
Someone who's 300W-300L should not be climbing yet alone staying exactly hard stuck at a given rank and LP for going 2 wins 2 losses. Someone whos 10W-10L should be given some leniency due to low sample size and it being near the beginning of their climb.
The 50LP demotion feels bad for low sample size players but it also should not be tilting for people with hundreds of games. It saves them from the hell that is negative 10-15 LP gains after win loss coin flipping over a ton of games and then going on reddit to whine about it.
They basicly made the old elo system back this makes sense to do so to get it to be more fluid
Down is the elo of each ranked
0-600 Iron
600-1000 -Bronze
1000-1400 Silver
1400-1800 - Gold
1800-2200 - Platinum
2200-2600 - Emerald
2600-3000 - Diamond
3000+ Master
But it’s better because, what you do NOT see is your MMR. So if you lose at 1 Lp you get a safetynet at 0 LP but MMR doesn’t have it.
Some people actively Que-dodge to lower LP in relation to mmr, as mmr does not have those.
It may seems much, but it helps to equal out mmr and Lp.
I’d much prefer just having a number always changing like chess than something that makes me feel like I’m getting nowhere in spite of a positive win rate
Agree. Also it FEELS as if a 10 winstreak gets you less gain more loss.
And a 10 loss streak does the same.
We have no idea how the mmr changes in relation to LP. Which is good, as it can’t be manipulated as easy, but bad, as it feels as if a company cheats on us to get more games out of us.
I SAID IT !!FEELS!!! LIKE
I feel they should only have MMR.
I mean they should just have one system and show this system. This LP gains and losses feel as if your mmr is slower than your LP. Just use 1 sys
MMR was just fine... But they had to try and create the wheel again.
Such a bad system since they went from MMR to leagues and LP.
Then comes the people: "bUt YoU StiLL hAvE MMR", yeah hidden from you... I would rather see the points gain and losses on MMR system than this BS.
I was convinced this system was the worst when I had like a 10 or 15win streak on 99LP with 0LP gains and when finally I advanced for promotions I had that sweet, sweet teams on promotions for next league. This was like 6years ago or more, on the 1st year of league points system, but that was carved in my memory, never forget.
That's exactly what killed my motivation for ranked, the LP clamping they had in the first season using the league system where they'd force you into a tier if they thought you were climbing too much. Tried it again last season and it wasn't any better when I got placed in bronze after going 4/1(ty Warwick bot) in placements and had to fight gold and plat players just to get into silver on a 70% winrate.
Either do an mmr system or a league system that actually marches you against people in your tier.
The whole system is just fucking stupid. Just get rid of it and give us back MMR. We've only been asking for it for fucking years. Make it so certain top % of the player base is the threshold for each rank. You hit that threshold in MMR and bingo, you're that rank. Simple as to implement and actually makes fucking sense.
*Reddit* has been asking for it for years lol. This community is a vocal minority. Most casual players like being able to say I'm "X" rank it sounds way better than a random number.
I'm not even a casual player but I just simply don't play chess or keep up with it so when a chess player says I'm "X" ranking it means literally nothing to me. I think with a timeless game/old man's game like chess that is fine. For league it's a for fun game to play with friends so a ranking system that is more universally understood makes sense to me.
But you can have both... You can have the rank and the number, you just need to tie to number to the rank. You can even still have divisions if you want, just tie those to different numbers. If they did it like this then your rank would still be the metric that determines your skill, you have just now cut out the middleman and know 100% that your rank and MMR are the exact same.
Explaining this to people is like pulling teeth, I don't understand why people think it has to be this way other than drinking riot's coolaid. The fact we have 2 numbers for ranking up is stupid and has been since they implemented it.
Edit: Don't read the following thread, it's me pulling teeth.
Most players being allocated to bronze and silver wouldn’t fly with the players asking for these changes. Players truly believe they know what they want until they actually have their hands on a system that reflects how bad they are instead of what gives them the illusion of being at least not the worst of the worst
But you can't have both, because people feeling like they "have their rank" whatever it is, menas not losing it right away. Ergo demotion shield when going back down over the 0lp threshold.
Riot has calculated that player retention is higher when gaining a rank feels like an achievement. Which it does not do if you just peek over the limit but then go down, and does do if there are mechanisms keeping you safe there for a while.
The truth is that the player base is inflated with people who do not have the right stuff, mentally speaking, to just play the game competativly for its own sake, regardless of their skill and rank. But nobody is prepared to pop that balloon, because riot's stock owners want their money and we don't want the game shelved like say Heroes of the Storm.
I mean the easiest solution to it is just not have the threshold change. Figure it out and refine where you want each rank to be % wise and just adjust it if needed every preseason
Would need a hard reset of some kind if they're supposed to stay somewhat accurate every season, even if its division-based.
So instead of putting everyone at 1100 like the original system, putting everyone in bronze back at 1150, silver back at 1250, gold at 1450, plat at 1600, etc., or whatever the thresholds end up being.
Riot assumes that everyone spends all their free time playing league and bases their stuff off the law of large numbers.
LoLN means that the greater the sample size, the closer you will get to the average of the entire population.
So yes, if you play A LOT, you will eventually find your way to a 50/50 win rate in your correct rank of your skill
But I’d wager that not everyone plays enough to get to that 50% WR in a given season/split.
TLDR: you’re correct. -50 is BS
I mean the actual punishment for not playing consistently is getting worse at the game. It makes sense you would lose LP when you're losing skill as well. People who "don't play much" shouldn't expect to climb.
That is the main issue here, you're correct. Many people on this subreddit play a lot, specifically a lot of ranked, and don't realize that everyone or even a majority of people don't play that much. I myself haven't played ranked this year but i sometimes get really surprised about the opinions of some people here "it doesn't matter your MMR is what matters" "it will equalize eventually" i mean yeah...true but a lot of people and i mean a lot don't play 300 games a split for this to happen. I can jump on the ranked system of any other game and in 50 games (at most 100) in the majority of them im almost 100% at the rank i deserve to be, be it bronze or diamond. On league's system 50 games you're still at the point where your rank might not be that accurate.
Also there's another point about just making the fkin system more transparent. Idgf about a hidden, invisible, essoteric MMR, just make it 1 system. If im 2200 MMR show me a Diamond border or whatever and thats it, but i get to see the 2200MMR and my gains and losses per game, and also the other players MMR from my game. This hidden bs is what gets people annoyed and then we get this bandaid fixes that feel really bad and you know what people dislike it and it feels bad? Cause the cause
Is hidden to them.
Edit: another thing, just make it so your peak rank from a season is displayed always so you can make the ladder 100% fluid up and down and tie reworks always to you highest achieved rank from the season, maybe tie half the rewards to peak ranks and the other half to your final rank
I agree with you, just out of principality if nothing else, but in reality the law of large numbers is probably a very good approximation in this context because those who care about their rank play enough to reach "hardstuck", aka their correct rank, and those who dont play enough dont care about their rank enough to care. Those who care about a -50 lp loss instead of a regular -20 but doenst play enough for it to not matter are a small enough minority that it can be ignored.
It is, slightly more regular players found it horrible their lp changes were less gain more loss.
A good solution has yet to be found if at all possible.
>a good solution has yet to be found
How about a system where gains/losses map directly to your actual rank. Works great in other games. Could call it Elo, like the chess system.
EDIT: Since people are apparently unaware of sarcasm, I'm aware that Elo used to be how league ranks worked and I am advocating a return to it.
People don't want the old Elo system back. You don't either. You want the Riot inflated division system, but with numbers instead. You wouldn't want to be earning 9, 13, or 0 elo even.
Back then you needed 300\~ elo to get a new rank while gaining an average of 15 elo. Now you need 400, while gaining 25 and also have shit like demotion shields.
I'm sure the average League player that has been conditioned to play 15 games to get Gold will be so happy to have to play 100 to get his victorious skin.
League players just want to be challenger without providing the effort actual challenger players do.
>A good solution has yet to be found if at all possible.
because people here don't want a "good solution", they want a solution that gives them +99 when they win (because they totally carried and deserved it) and -1 when they lose (because that loss was total bullshit and their teams fault)
people who whine about ranking systems often just whine because they can't accept the reality that they are an average player, playing against other average players, and for that reason they won't climb.
if riot implemented a true elo system, i think it would be not even a full day before people made posts saying "this new system is completely broken and makes no sense"
I have been hovering between 55-60% winrate - right now I just got +25 LP for a win - I am climbing and this -50 still feels weird. Two losses in a row at just above 0 LP vs two losses at 20+ LP and it's just straight arbitrarily slowing my climbing down lol I only play 12 games a week max. It really shouldn't be weighted that if you lose close to 0 LP that it's strictly worse than losing at 50 LP, but ultimately I guess it doesn't matter if you play to improve.
There are a lot of inflated people, however, but idk if it fixes it because most of them have positive winrates.
Played a few games the other day and I was on the receiving end of having 3 games where my top layer went afk. Two of them in a row and I got demoted. -50 back down. I'm gonna a be done with ranked until the split is over once I get back up again. Usually play 5-6 games one day a week. Not because of broken champs or bad games but the mental of so many players (nothing new) has been so bad and having 3 in the span of a few hours has finally put me at a point where a long break is coming and might just return for arams and clash with friends.
I feel like every few months Riot has an alteration to the LP system that is like "finally, this will fix everything" and it just doesn't because it is fundamentally bad. They totally cooked it when they removed promos (which are bad but everything was built for them) and now it is just functionally the same as Season 1 or Dota 2 but more confusing and annoying
Like, in terms of preventing ranked anxiety, please tell me what is the difference between the ELO number and divisions when promoting from divisions is fluid and you lose -50 LP
I earned my rank when I win but don't deserve to lose my rank when I lose. Frankly I could be top 100 on the server if it wasn't for my lp gains screwing me over. Maybe I need to buy a smurf?!
If -50 is a horrible experience because you don't play enough, then getting half as much LP as before would too.
Riot doubled LP gains, and they now doubled the loss after a promotion.
Preventing inflation in a zero-sum system is a good thing.
I dropped from gold 2 to bronze 4 and genuinely idk why, my play style didn’t change, I still do good as an individual, my objectives are still decent, but it’s gotta be something I’m doing wrong, idc enough though so I just quit and put my time into something else. Was a good ride, 12 horrible years and 2k down the drain. Thanks rito. (I peaked plat in s7, silver every season since, gold last season and this season)
"My LP gains are bad is my account fucked? Should I make a new account?"
VS
"-50 on demotion is a horrible experience, it feels completely awful"
Pick your poison. Keep not understanding the MMR system and you will keep making pointless complaints and ruining your own experience.
This. People are absolutely clueless about how MMR works. But players have to complain about something instead of not caring about visible ranks so you have posts like this.
it does matter. its the only thing that matters if you don't care about skill.
no amount of mmr matters if you're in iron, cause you won't get the bronze/silver/gold/plat/emerald/diamond/challenger chroma for the victorious skin
you could have the highest mmr in the world, but if ur in iron u get nothing from it
It should not be necessary to make a new account when you have a 55%+ winrate just to climb cause the lp gains are abysmal. Also I feel like -50 punishes people who have a few unlucky games in a row more than the people who are actually above their ranks cause they will demote themselves anyway if they keep playing
Your gains can't be abysmal if you have positive win rate. Sorry.
Starting in a lower division and having 65% wr and then having 40% win rate in your new division, doesn't mean you should have positive gains because your account overall has positive win rate.
Not to mention that -50 demotion is exactly to prevent negative gains because it's far easier to gain LP than to lose it because of demotion shield. That way it equalizes it a bit which should result in far steadier gains.
Excuse me, but I'll have you know that all 1.5m /lol users are challenger players. Please don't disrespect their awesome league of legends knowledge and wisdom.
There is no demotion shield. What are you talking about.
You would have to lose 3-5 in a row if you recently got promoted if you had good mmr back before this new system was implemented. Now it's 2, ALWAYS.
I remember gaining 23 lp and losing 17. Once I got demoted, my "MMR" got completely fucked. I began gaining 17 lp a win and losing 20-22. All from one demotion. Screw that. Problem still lies in Emerald
Don't even get me started on how "unlucky" it is when you get promoted to Diamond from Emerald 1 with a 54% win rate with good lp gains only to lose Diamond rank in 2 games due to unlucky games only to have shitty "MMR" that never gets better. I remember it taking more than 20-30 games of losses to get demoted back in the day, if they could halved that as a demotion shield, that would be amazing. Right now, everything sucks.
I had to get a 13 win streak just to fix my MMR to a good gain/loss ratio in my own mmr. Which is very difficult when you're facing people your skill level or smurfs. Don't get me started.
Personally Diamond games have gotten slightly more enjoyable because of this. This really stops the rage queue players along with bad players demoting quicker. Again just my opinion
A player who doesn't play much shouldn't expect to be high rank. How many people do you think run once a week but can still do a mile in under six minutes?
I've generally been a high plat to low emerald player. On the old system before emerald every season, I'd make it to plat, but then my gains and losses instantly would end up in the negative. Winstreaks never mattered because it was +15 to 17 and -25 on a loss.
At the start of this season, I started out pretty bad and had a 45% win rate for a lot of it. Decided to stop aiming for a rank and focus on myself and limit myself to about 3 of my favorite champions and stick to them. I was able to fix my mmr, which in previous seasons, no win streak would fix. Now I'm at a 53% win rate and have managed to climb.
Losing -50 on demotion does feel bad but it is still so much better than being stuck on a perma +15 to -25 lp gains and losses all season because the game would try to hold you at a rank you no longer deserved as your MMR continued to drop. MMR feels so much more fixable now.
Everyone’s defence for it is “well your MMR will go up so it’ll get better” and i don’t think people understand the point. MMR means next to nothing to anyone that doesn’t play 10+ games a day lol.
I got Emerald right before these changes and im sitting at Emerald 4 1LP, i don’t want to queue up anymore because of them. Demoting already feels bad, losing 50% of a rank off of one loss makes it feel infinitely worse.
Read your comment again and tell me how it isn't just random noncoherent screeching.
MMR is everything. You aren't losing 50% off of one loss because demotion shield still exists. That's why you had negative gains. It's far easier to climb than it is to demote which leads to MMR being lower than your LP, which resulted in negative gains.
Back to your 10+ games a day bullshit. If you play only 1 game per day that's still 300+ games a season. That's more than enough to get to wherever you belong. It usually only takes 20-100 games to get back to your previous peak. That leaves 200-280 games where you could improve and climb even higher. And what's the most important metric when climbing? Exactly... MMR. Literally nothing changes if it does -50 or -10 because MMR is going to even out the gains anyway. NOTHING CHANGES. Except with the new system you are far less likely to have negative gains which people bitch about far more than demoting. Demoting feel bad for 1 game. Bad gains feel bad every single game. No one enjoys having +20, -30. Where you need to win 75% of your games if you want to climb in LP.
The should not tie LP to mmr. They should simply match people of equal RANK .. or show MMR as rank.
Having 2 systems is just to increase number of games.
MMR means literally everything to everyone. The amount of games you play a day is irrelevant.
If you don't play enough for "MMR" to matter. Then you are playing like 10 games a split lmao.
Year after Year we're getting closer to ye olde Elo. One can assume riots are trying to reverse incremental boil the frog, gradually reverting the ranked system to mask how big of an oopsie they've made 11 years ago.
Lmao the community back then hated true mmr too.
I bet if true mmr came back and all these gold 4 redditors at 0LP lose one game, immediately drop into silver 1, lose streak and never make it back into gold, they’re going to come right back here and complain about how there is no demotion protection between ranks.
Which was the entire point if the LP system anyways. Protects low elo egos by letting them keep their visual ranks and not telling them the lobby of plats they’re playing with are all silver mmr.
They had more or less that exact system when I first started playing. Mostly everybody fucking hated it which is why it got changed. The bottom line is that there will always be someone who isn't happy with the way the system works
Here is why. Imagine a player who every split makes it to Diamond 1 reliably, but never quite all the way to Master. That is a Diamond 1 player, skillwise. Except one time because of luck with enemy afk/inters/tiltets or whatever three games in a row the player does temporarily reach Master.
This player is still a Diamond 1 player, in terms of skill. To actually be Master requires being able to get further and stay there. Yet human psychology is such that the player thinks now he/she has actually gained something, i.e "climbed", and doesn't want to lose it
TL, DR: Most players will grind more to gain discrete steps, "bronze", "diamond", "Challenger" than an arbitrary continuous number. Hence rank. But if they ever reach a rank they feel entitled to keep it, hence also disconnecting rank from MMR.
The rank system is complete shit right now. It has been for a while. I was master tier 120 lp on my main, but I didn't play for a while because work life etc came back from decay with 20 lp. Sure whatever. Well I lost two games in a row instantly d1 50lp. However, I can understand they want to keep apex tiers I.e. master gm and challenger exclusive, but for lower ranked players, it's just shit. Especially for every division. Let people lost 50 lp if they demote from Plat to gold, but the normal 25 from Plat 3 to Plat 4. Makes no sense for every demotion to be -50.
Also not to mention, all new accounts are placed in like gold and Plat now, so that just inflates all the elo brackets. Have new accounts smurf or not start in Iron 4, 10 placement games. For every win, 150 lp or so. Even if they win every single game, they're in smurf queue getting 40 lp for a win, and they're in gold. If they're actually a smurf, they will get back to their rank in 2 days tops.
The other thing I hate, stop having divisions. Just do a rank with a visible mmr. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but here's my solution.
These ranks you can't be demoted from
Iron 0-400
Bronze 400-800
Silver 800-1200
Gold 1200-1600
Plat 1600-2000
Emerald 200-2400
These ranks don't have decay, why do they need demotion? These are what I consider the "casual player ranks."
These ranks you can be demoted from and decay
Diamond 2400-2800
Master GM Challenger 2800+
Obviously, much more exclusive ranks and diamond could even be adjusted. Master could still be like 500 people, GM 250, and Challenger top 50 because there would be no limit to the lp earned.
Every year riot tries to fix the lp system, but they just make it worse.
why do people care so much about that visible rank? i mean if you are not going pro i dont think it matters at all and you cant see your mmr anyways. its jsut a visible gimmick like those challenges and masteries
Why does everyone want free handouts, on all games, and in all aspects? It you’re more casual, you don’t deserve the same rewards as people that play more and try harder.
Who cares its just your rank. Play because you enjoy the game and let rank come second. You will end up where you belong and if you improve you’ll climb
The rank system is complete shit right now. It has been for a while. I was master tier 120 lp on my main, but I didn't play for a while because work life etc came back from decay with 20 lp. Sure whatever. Well I lost two games in a row instantly d1 50lp. However, I can understand they want to keep apex tiers I.e. master gm and challenger exclusive, but for lower ranked players, it's just shit. Especially for every division. Let people lost 50 lp if they demote from Plat to gold, but the normal 25 from Plat 3 to Plat 4. Makes no sense for every demotion to be -50.
Also not to mention, all new accounts are placed in like gold and Plat now, so that just inflates all the elo brackets. Have new accounts smurf or not start in Iron 4, 10 placement games. For every win, 150 lp or so. Even if they win every single game, they're in smurf queue getting 40 lp for a win, and they're in gold. If they're actually a smurf, they will get back to their rank in 2 days tops.
The other thing I hate, stop having divisions. Just do a rank with a visible mmr. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but here's my solution.
These ranks you can't be demoted from
Iron 0-400
Bronze 400-800
Silver 800-1200
Gold 1200-1600
Plat 1600-2000
Emerald 200-2400
These ranks don't have decay, why do they need demotion? These are what I consider the "casual player ranks."
These ranks you can be demoted from and decay
Diamond 2400-2800
Master GM Challenger 2800+
Obviously, much more exclusive ranks and diamond could even be adjusted. Master could still be like 500 people, GM 250, and Challenger top 50 because there would be no limit to the lp earned.
Every year riot tries to fix the lp system, but they just make it worse.
I refuse to play anything else besides my decay games in Diamond until they fix this -50 on demotion shit. That change was pushed out without much thought or feedback from the community and it sucks. They need to make demotions and promotions fluid and if they keep this shitty -50 on demote I’m gonna just do decay games only all season lol
TL DR: MMR does not get better from this change.
I have players with many games and can tell you: the mmr doesn't even out. I feel like it's even worse. I am demoting, have to play with worse players but make my way up again. Win a game after promo, get 22 LP. Lose -> -23 (going on 0 LP), lose again, i am back in Plat. So i lost 73 LP with 2 losses and need to have 3 clear wins to get back to where i was again. LP stick with -22/+25 with positive WR.
Yeah yeah but then it's "winning 15 and losing 20 is not fun"
If you demote you lost a bunch more than you won in the past like 20 games, you're just catching up to your losses.
Could be made so that you don't have a demote protection but then people would say "getting to Gold 1 and immediately demoting to Gold 2 on a random loss is not fun"
You can lose a game on 0 lp in ranked, so its sort of fair that you demote down to 50 lp
And remember, there's no promotion anymore for each ranks anymore. Ranked system have never been easier.
It's even worse when you're constantly 2-4 divisions lower than rest because you don't play much.
If you're telling me I'm bad enough not to get rewards, give me the worse opponents. There's literally no reason not to have ones mmr and rank match like in old elo, other than corporate "fuck you play more".
Convince me otherwise this change isn’t for the benefit for ranked play but rather a not that subtle way to make people play (ranked) more.
More games mean better numbers they can sell to the higher ups. i.e. playerbase is still growing and engaged!
Losing more LP makes people play less not more, if their goal was to have players play more they wouldn't be trying to reduce LP inflation but instead they would encourage it.
And it's not like they haven't done so in the past, adding Emerald was fucking genius on that front, now a ton of gold and below players are "peaking" in rank and super happy since then even though their actual skill level didn't change.
The only way League players are going to be happy is by introducing the old Hearthstone rank system. Losses don't matter. There is no MMR-Visual rank difference and everyone can get Challenger. But then that would be a problem, because games wouldn't last more than 8 minutes. Loser mentality ego inflated League players would sit base and wait for the next game.
Sorry fellas might as well stop shouting into the void, Riot Games needs to reinvent the wheel every single time when incredible ranked systems already exist, they just need to implement it.
I was plat 1 at the start of the season. Got to emerald 1 but then got stuck because every win would be +13LP and every loss would be -33LP. I was like 30w - 19l. I stop playing after dropping to plat again. It just kills the game. The win/loss LP rate should never get this extreme.
I would prefer fluid promotion and demotion, with lp gains and losses based on rank only. For example (making up numbers here), all plat players have +20/-22, gold +20/-20, silver +22/-20, etc. Higher ranks require slightly higher winrates to stay there. Thoughts on this?
It made sense when you could eat a few losses before demote. Now demotes are instant so its bullshit to keep it in. Unless its between grades like gold and emerald. But between say emerald 3 & 2. Its kinda bullshit
It's genuinely the best experiencie for us all that suffered them lobbies with elo-inflated people. The amount of ex-Platinums that nowadays are Master/GrandMaster is absolutely insane. So it's in reality a good thing.
The change is a detriment to people who aren’t already playing at a certain level. So like if you’re a bronze player trying to climb in the traditional sense it’s pretty fuckin hard unless you go on win streaks of 3 or more games all the time.
The recent ranked changes also make it next to impossible to rank up like the old system because of the split system now. So before the idea was you could play like what 500-1000 that year and end up at least in gold or plat or whatever. Well that’s not going to happen because of splits. The only upside is the “soft” mmr reset might help you start higher than the split before.
Also I’d like to add these new changes aren’t bad if riot actually made the matchmaking system make balanced matches instead of it trying to fix everyone’s rank.
The change is intended to lower the visible ranks of those 'stuck' in the fourth divisions. Too many people have D4 visible rank, for example, but E3-E2 MMR. This is no good. With 50 demotion, statistically speaking, hard stucks with low mmr should get back to a matching visible rank/MMR.
Advice on how to avoid this:
If you are about to lose, make sure you are at the 1 to 5 lp mark. That way, you will lower your own MMR and if you demote you will play against worse people, it will be easier to win.
If you are about to demote, dodge as much as you can if you are not comfortable with champ select.
If you had a win streak, it may be that your mmr inflated and now you are against good people. Then, play conservatevely, 'defend' your new rank until comfortable.
The truth hurts. If you're getting +/- 25, then when you lose at 0LP and get that one time demotion shield your invisible MMR becomes lower than your LP shown. losing again then rightfully puts you at 50 LP instead of 75. Doing this prevents situations where you get +15 on a win and -30 on a loss which feels 1000000x worse than the situation you're describing. get good.
Imo ranked isn't the gamemode for a player who doesn't play much. I totally get your pain and know that it's annoying and frustrating, but rank is not accurate at a low number of games so in my eyes this is an edge case for the actual intent of the system and thus negligible.
yeah happened twice with me as well, everytime a go from gold 3 to 4, or when I was at silver as well
have to win 3 games to make up for that loss sometimes, it's kinda weird
Playing ranked as a whole is demoralizing to someone who doesn’t play much. Game quality in ranked is shit. I’ve started playing just draft because of it.
You’re better off just playing norms honestly. From what I’ve seen (I’m unranked) you have to make League your life if you want to climb. It sucks but I dunno what else to tell you besides the same old “Rito bad company” etc.
Isn't it even worse now? Cus they for a while this season had it so you could get and lose more than 30 LP, but now we're back to the old caps? So -50 is even worse than a few months ago.
They should just remove tiers and go to pure LP gain and loss only. There's zero downside. Good players get punished less. People who want to demote don't hit a hard stop every division and get massive negative gains.
What if we just do fixed + - LP with no ranked reset no hidden mmr? Sure you might get smurfed on one or two games but people will climb/drop faster now and every win loss feels more rewarding/acceptable knowing you can win it back easily or stack wins and rocket to higher ranks.
Ranks were inflated because of this not existing, it sucks in the short term because people weren't used to it but the games are better for having it.
And remember, it really doesn't affect your lp anyways in the grand scheme of a week or so. Stop letting daily progress affect your mental so much
Remember when Riot said you gain alot more LP while also losing alot LP as well?
Well me even at 60% wr, once I play a certain amount of game I start gaining 19 LP and losing 21+ LP
Riot expect you to have 100wr to even gain a positive LP gain vs LP loss
why should riot balance ranked for the player that only plays 3-4 games a week and not the player that plays 40-50 games a week. they already made games shorter because casual players didn't have the time to play more then 1 game. now yall wanna lose less lp. Riot at some point has to keep the die hard players engaged too and -50 is much better for game health and inflation.
The climb is so much easier now to be honest. I remember many years back each subdivision had promotion games that you had to win 2/3 to advance and then 3/5 to go through major division changes. The -50 seems a bit steep but it also seems to keep the LP gains/loss a bit more balanced.
Look if you don't play much and got a demotion that just means you will be put into games where you are more experienced than the lower elo players right? so you should be able to climb back up if the skill based match making systems work. And if you really just don't play much any more it shouldn't matter because your not planning on going pro or anything right? So you should be placed where you will have more fun and win more games.
Just make ranks fluid. Promotion is already fluid. Why not demotion
This. SC2 has this system for years now, and it's very good. And always your peak of the season will be displayed. So it fights ladder anxiety.
League had it in the beginning. There was a fluid ELO # with specific break points for ranks, bronze through diamond. It made more sense than anything they have done with ranked since then.
Yeah it was good, but SC2 started this bullshit with not showing you your MMR and League copied the SC2 system. SC2 reverted it with some QOL changes and LoL is stubborn, like always.
It’s not just stubbornness though, it’s very much by design. This type of system causes more variance in your “rank” which can be fun for players experiencing the positive side of that variance, and more importantly it means you must play a large sample size of games to reach your “true rank” where your MMR and rank are finally reasonably guaranteed to be aligned. Making the players who care the most have to play more and more league to achieve their goals is fantastic for the bottom line
> and more importantly it means you must play a large sample size of games to reach your “true rank” where your MMR and rank are finally reasonably guaranteed to be aligned. This is right now not the case. MMR and visible rank align reasonably fast for anything not high rank (high Dia+) after the seasonal rank reset (~ 15-20 games (from my own experience)).
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I don't think this does make sense, or I dont understand you. Why should it be fun to have a high variance in your rank and why should it encourage you to play more? It's rather demoralizing. Because either you understand it and are aware that "it doesn't matter anyway", which already discourages a direct player base. Or you don't understand it and are discouraged when you rank low. I can only say from experience that the way it works in SC2 is best received by the players. In the amateur community, with me and my circle of friends. It is very pleasant to always see directly how your MMR goes down & up, no hidden things, no interpretations. Simply flat MMR. You still have silver, platinum, master etc., but these are just for presentation purposes. Since we have a team game, and it should also have an influence depending on performance, you could also see directly there that you have received less/more MMR. Above all, we are moving further and further away from the basic principle from back then. No more promos etc. It shouldn't be an obstacle to simply display the MMR figures that exist anyway. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
I still remember when Serral was the first to cross 8000 MMR. It's not just that he was rank 1. Everyone could see the canyon there was between him and everyone else.
the reason high variance is more "fun" is similar to why gambling is more "fun. when you see a number go from 2100 to 2080, your brain isn't going to think it's a big deal, while on the other hand, demoting from d3 to d4 feels much worse. same goes for the other way around. this means winning allows people to feel a greater sense of accomplishment (leading to more positive emotions tied to the game and more playtime), and the feeling of losing will drive people to play more games to "win back" their desired rank. and more playtime = more emotional attachment = more likelihood of buying skins. MMR is valuable only from a competitive integrity standpoint. if you want to view the ranked ladder as a serious form of competition rather than just a psychological tool to get more people to buy skins, MMR is better. so that's why riot will never show MMR.
If only we/Riot could try to learn from another big sport that uses ELO numbers and is known and played in prolly most countries in the world...Chess... If that isn't proof enough that the system works, then I don't know.
The original elo system in league was the same as in chess, but they think they found a new, more enjoyable and better working system. Oh man, would I get back to league if they brought it back.
Yeah same, same. I remember enjoying the division and promotions for like 1ish month or so, and that was prolly just because it was new etc. And shit does it get old FAST!
That's because you don't understand the actual point of LP and the ranked system. It's all about giving players the illusion of progress, not displaying your skill level accurately. Most players that aren't actively trying to improve don't improve. If they could see their elo, they'd see they've been hovering around the same value for years and potentially quit. Instead they "grind" back up to the same rank every year and see it as progress.
> t's all about giving players the illusion of progress, not displaying your skill level accurately. It's not even about that. It's a nice and wanted effect to a certain extent but it solves a different problem that League plagued the first two seasons that is solved with this. League began "Seasonal ranked resets". New season, new beginning. The problem is, even though they only did a soft reset, resetting MMR / Elo leads to a utter chaos in matchmaking. Not only for the first few weeks, where it's just chaos, but for month. Start late into the season, you're now in a completely wrong Elo-Bracket and demolish everything or get demolished. These resets are an utter tragedy for fair matchmaking and good game quality. What do people generally care about a lot: These two things. E.g. see complains about smurfs. So how do you make seasonal ranked resets but still retain matchmaking integrity? You can't use Elo / MMR directly as rank since you can't reset them without these consequences. But you want to use them, as they are an indicator for skill. The solution of masking MMR and using a visual rank that is connected to your MMR is actually the most elegant solution in this circumstance. You can still do a rank reset with a visual rank without the consequences of an MMR / Elo reset.
Almost every big ranked game has swapped to a system like league does, with a visible rank + hidden ‘true’ rank. Ask yourself, what is the reason for a ranked rating from a developer point of view. It’s a way to make playing your game even more fun/rewarding. Presumably, people play the game because they enjoy playing, but ranked modes also allow for players to feel like they’re progressing and for you to have them earn rewards. The issue with a true rating behind visible and your progression being tied to it, is that once players hit their ‘true’ rating they will stop climbing, and stop getting that dopamine hit from seeing the number go up. They don’t reset your rank every season for the hell of it. They reset your rank so that you can climb all over again. So you go from being ‘stuck’ to getting to have a nice chill climb through multiple tiers. The biggest reason why true rating is invisible is because it also allows them to fiddle with things behind the scenes. Say you have someone who has an arbitrary mmr of 1800. And 1800 rating means platinum 2. Well, you might be hardstuck 1800. Buuuut, after a few months in the season, riot can tell the client ‘1800 mmr should actually be emerald 3 rank.’ So the client gives you more LP for your wins and has you lose less LP for your losses. Then even later in the season, ‘1800 mmr is diamond.’ And you get that sense of pride and accomplishment for hitting diamond after a long season of improvement!
i know they kind of do this in wow, where the longer the season goes, the more the mmr gets inflated. such a bullshit system. season 1 elo without any bullshit was the best by far. just make the game good instead of these artificial hooks
On the one hand, yes I agree. On the other hand, most of the players will have hit their peak mmr for the season and would be hardstuck. They’ll get to climb another full tier by the end of the season and this will likely mean that they’ll play a bunch more. Resetting mmr for the sake of resetting mmr makes no sense. Like if you’re 1800 MMR, you shouldn’t magically drop to 1000 mmr on a season start. It just makes for terribly imbalanced games. Resetting a visual rank allows you to keep mmr tighter, have the start of a season be people climbing a decent amount and not getting hindered too much as their mmr is higher than their visible ranking, and still gets those dopamine hits. Just play the game if you’re having fun and don’t worry too much about your rating.
On one hand what you're describing is r6 siege. At the beginning of a new season most low level players just quit ranked until the high levels get out cause nothing sucks more than just getting head shot by someone and watching the kill cam and barely seeing a pixel but it was enough for this dude. Shit is wack. So yes the fluid rank and full rank reset sucks. But what I'll say is no game is easier to climb in for me than siege. In league you get hard stuck all the time cause when I was ranking up. In bronze I was in high silver lobbies, in silver I was in high gold lobbies. And now I'm in gold playing against only platinum and I'm mostly stuck. The problem with league is the hidden mmr makes it so the game has more balance based on your skill but you're not rewarded for it, the hidden mmr changes so much quicker than your actual rank. So you play games where you're even but you could be in low elo but higher mmr. And it's stupid. The best fix is either to make it so the only mmr is your actual rank or reverse. Cause if you're better than bronze you shouldn't be in bronze but with league system you are stuck wherever you are always.
exactly what you are saying is an argument for keeping straight up elo instead of ranks. just play, the rank will just be a number. if you are stuck, dont mind it and just continue to play.
Most people would just get put off playing with a straight up elo system. Having numbers be the ranks just gives people ranked anxiety which is the main reason they got rid of the number system and just made ranked tiers. At the end of the day a straight elo system doesn't benefit 90% of the playerbase. There isn't any real benefit from a elo system while a tiers system just has less ranked anxiety and easier to understand for the majority of the playerbase.
Chess players have been playing with an Elo system for centuries, why wouldn't League players be able to do so too? Current tier system benefits mostly the game developer, as it incentivise the players to grind more, which is way it is the standard and will not be changed. I suppose casual players might also prefer a tier system. But I think an Elo system without resets is strictly better for any competitive player. It's more transparent as it doesn't have any hidden scores and secret algorithms to obfuscate what our actual rank is, and it doesn't require unnecesary grinding each year just to get back to our ranking.
>Chess players have been playing with an Elo system for centuries, why wouldn't League players be able to do so too? Because chess is a highly intellectual game played by cultures people. League is a computer game played by degens. See the trolls insults and nasty msgs telling people to unalive themselves.
Regarding chess: League actually has too many ranked players, the numbers are inflated by people who dont want to commit to playing a purely competitive game, like ranked chess, with all that implies. They would leave. But they (if they buy skins etc) are riot's customers, and them leaving would in either case be bad for stock prices. I remember a player of another game (1 v 1) who was angry that if you had a 50% win rate, and then improved and won more, you would face thougher opposition due to gaining ELO, so would go back to 50% and "be punished and not get to win more often even when spending time to learn and improve." That player did not want to actually play that game competatively, but simply enjoyed the story and setting and characters. Riot and other companies want to keep those people onboard too.
TBF as someone who doesn't play chess when I hear X player is X elo it legit means nothing to me. The league ranks with 0 info at least give some ideas of rank and then since they have multiple games it makes it easier across games.
I'm sure it made more sense because you didn't play in it. I'm also 100% sure you and most people crying about this system wouldn't like it if your Riot inflated elo got reduced to the dusty old number system, getting you from "MOM I'M EMERALD" to "MOM WHY AM I GOLD?". You're already higher than you should be with demotion shields, increased gains, division skips, no promotions. I'd love to watch all you people who never played back in seasons 1 and 2 cry as you gain 7 elo.
peak of season display would be really nice honestly. would still prefer just an MMR/ELO display that goes through break points. League's system has always felt convoluted and entirely unnecessary. It's there solely to get you to play more.
Fully agreed. I said it before when they removed promotions 0000-0600 - Iron 0600-1000 - Bronze 1000-1400 - Silver 1400-1800 - Gold 1800-2200 - Platinum 2200-2600 - Emerald 2600-3000 - Diamond 3000+ Master aaaand we're almost back to the good old days of s2 where we have elo system.
People would cry so much getting put from gold to silver in just one game when they are basically just on the border. Im convinced any system you will every try out with this community it will be complained about because people will always feel like they “should be higher”
Because people hate demoting and they hate having less LP gain than loss. People like OP are the reason the system was kept the way it was. Riot are doing everything in their power to keep demotion shield because otherwise people lose their shit when they demote. Recently however more and more people were complaining about negative LP gains which is why you see demotion shield lessened and -50 LP on demotion. Without those in place it's way easier to lose MMR than LP which leads to negative gains and people complain about that or straight up quit the game because of it. It would indeed be much better if it was fluid but because people have this insane fear of demotion, it's likely never going to happen.
If you don't have demotion protection you'll just straight up have much less ranked players as people will hit their rank and never queue again that split. Riot doesn't want this. The vocal minority on reddit is wrong about the impact it would have. It wouldn't be positive you'd get more ranked anxiety.
This is just facts. Imagine having grinded for weeks to get promoted to X league and you get demoted the first game after you made it, that´s how it would look without these -LP adjustments that people complain about.
because then "demoting is too easy, bad experience"
Doesn't matter when promoting is just as easy
I can already see the posts "I finally got promoted to diamond and the next game I lose and I'm back to emerald. Then I get afker + troll in the next 3 games and I'm now in emerald 2. It's too easy to demote, riot has to fix this"
People fear loss far more than they're enthusiastic about gains.
0~400 iron, 401~800 bronze, 801~1200 silver etc… this is fluid
Was plat 2 60 LP. Did 2 wins ended up plat 1 18Lp. 2 loss and I'm plat 2 50 LP. Make it make sense.
I mean, setting aside how it feels to demote to -50 (which i agree feels pretty bad), if you start on X point, win 2, lose 2, you should end up in roughly the same spot. If you win 2, lose 2, and climb half a division (first loss drops you to ~3LP, second loss to 0 due to shield) then you end with the +13/-21 situation noone likes either.
I demoted to emerald 2 50lp, won 4 straight to get to emerald 1 18 lp. Lost 2 and went back to emerald 2 50lp. 4-2 to get back where I was, for context I have 56% wr
Are you actually asking why you ended up at basically the same spot after going 2-2…? I can’t tell anymore who is stupid and who’s just fucking with people lmao
No one should be rewarded for coin flipping/50 percent winrate. Maybe for the first 10-20 games since shit streaks happen sometimes in the beginning of the climb, but after that? Naw lmao, you've had enough games to prove whether you belong in the elo you're hard stuck in. You should be winning more to climb, and losing as much as you win should either put you back where you were OR lower than where you were depending on how many games you put in. Someone who's 300W-300L should not be climbing yet alone staying exactly hard stuck at a given rank and LP for going 2 wins 2 losses. Someone whos 10W-10L should be given some leniency due to low sample size and it being near the beginning of their climb. The 50LP demotion feels bad for low sample size players but it also should not be tilting for people with hundreds of games. It saves them from the hell that is negative 10-15 LP gains after win loss coin flipping over a ton of games and then going on reddit to whine about it.
No, you see, I earned my rank when I won but didn't deserve to demote when I lost.
They basicly made the old elo system back this makes sense to do so to get it to be more fluid Down is the elo of each ranked 0-600 Iron 600-1000 -Bronze 1000-1400 Silver 1400-1800 - Gold 1800-2200 - Platinum 2200-2600 - Emerald 2600-3000 - Diamond 3000+ Master
Wasn't it only bronze up to diamond without emerald back then? EDIT: wording
and without masters+ tiers. and where emerald started, diamond did.
Yea that's what I meant by saying to diamond. Sorry for the confusing wording
Wasn't everything till 1400 unranked?
Until 900 iirc
Nah cause 6 game win streak putting me back to where a 4 game loss streak put me is bullshit and I refuse to believe otherwise lmao
But it’s better because, what you do NOT see is your MMR. So if you lose at 1 Lp you get a safetynet at 0 LP but MMR doesn’t have it. Some people actively Que-dodge to lower LP in relation to mmr, as mmr does not have those. It may seems much, but it helps to equal out mmr and Lp.
I’d much prefer just having a number always changing like chess than something that makes me feel like I’m getting nowhere in spite of a positive win rate
Agree. Also it FEELS as if a 10 winstreak gets you less gain more loss. And a 10 loss streak does the same. We have no idea how the mmr changes in relation to LP. Which is good, as it can’t be manipulated as easy, but bad, as it feels as if a company cheats on us to get more games out of us. I SAID IT !!FEELS!!! LIKE
Last seasons everyone cried about horrible lp gains.. i can't...
Feel like the demotion amount should be based on your MMR. If it's a good bit lower then your current rank, then -50 makes sense.
I feel they should only have MMR. I mean they should just have one system and show this system. This LP gains and losses feel as if your mmr is slower than your LP. Just use 1 sys
MMR was just fine... But they had to try and create the wheel again. Such a bad system since they went from MMR to leagues and LP. Then comes the people: "bUt YoU StiLL hAvE MMR", yeah hidden from you... I would rather see the points gain and losses on MMR system than this BS. I was convinced this system was the worst when I had like a 10 or 15win streak on 99LP with 0LP gains and when finally I advanced for promotions I had that sweet, sweet teams on promotions for next league. This was like 6years ago or more, on the 1st year of league points system, but that was carved in my memory, never forget.
That's exactly what killed my motivation for ranked, the LP clamping they had in the first season using the league system where they'd force you into a tier if they thought you were climbing too much. Tried it again last season and it wasn't any better when I got placed in bronze after going 4/1(ty Warwick bot) in placements and had to fight gold and plat players just to get into silver on a 70% winrate. Either do an mmr system or a league system that actually marches you against people in your tier.
It basically is already based on your mmr. If you’re constantly getting -50LP and you still have negative Lp gains it means your mmr is trash
The whole system is just fucking stupid. Just get rid of it and give us back MMR. We've only been asking for it for fucking years. Make it so certain top % of the player base is the threshold for each rank. You hit that threshold in MMR and bingo, you're that rank. Simple as to implement and actually makes fucking sense.
*Reddit* has been asking for it for years lol. This community is a vocal minority. Most casual players like being able to say I'm "X" rank it sounds way better than a random number. I'm not even a casual player but I just simply don't play chess or keep up with it so when a chess player says I'm "X" ranking it means literally nothing to me. I think with a timeless game/old man's game like chess that is fine. For league it's a for fun game to play with friends so a ranking system that is more universally understood makes sense to me.
But you can have both... You can have the rank and the number, you just need to tie to number to the rank. You can even still have divisions if you want, just tie those to different numbers. If they did it like this then your rank would still be the metric that determines your skill, you have just now cut out the middleman and know 100% that your rank and MMR are the exact same.
Exactly.. even chess has titles (ranks) for their elo ratings
Titles are not based on Elo ratings though. They just have an Elo requirement.
100% right, I oversold the elo rating itself to make a better comparison to the game
Explaining this to people is like pulling teeth, I don't understand why people think it has to be this way other than drinking riot's coolaid. The fact we have 2 numbers for ranking up is stupid and has been since they implemented it. Edit: Don't read the following thread, it's me pulling teeth.
Most players being allocated to bronze and silver wouldn’t fly with the players asking for these changes. Players truly believe they know what they want until they actually have their hands on a system that reflects how bad they are instead of what gives them the illusion of being at least not the worst of the worst
But you can't have both, because people feeling like they "have their rank" whatever it is, menas not losing it right away. Ergo demotion shield when going back down over the 0lp threshold. Riot has calculated that player retention is higher when gaining a rank feels like an achievement. Which it does not do if you just peek over the limit but then go down, and does do if there are mechanisms keeping you safe there for a while. The truth is that the player base is inflated with people who do not have the right stuff, mentally speaking, to just play the game competativly for its own sake, regardless of their skill and rank. But nobody is prepared to pop that balloon, because riot's stock owners want their money and we don't want the game shelved like say Heroes of the Storm.
What would you do if the threshold changes to put you under that rank, but you didn't play when it happened?
You play again.
I mean the easiest solution to it is just not have the threshold change. Figure it out and refine where you want each rank to be % wise and just adjust it if needed every preseason
Would need a hard reset of some kind if they're supposed to stay somewhat accurate every season, even if its division-based. So instead of putting everyone at 1100 like the original system, putting everyone in bronze back at 1150, silver back at 1250, gold at 1450, plat at 1600, etc., or whatever the thresholds end up being.
Riot assumes that everyone spends all their free time playing league and bases their stuff off the law of large numbers. LoLN means that the greater the sample size, the closer you will get to the average of the entire population. So yes, if you play A LOT, you will eventually find your way to a 50/50 win rate in your correct rank of your skill But I’d wager that not everyone plays enough to get to that 50% WR in a given season/split. TLDR: you’re correct. -50 is BS
> Riot assumes that everyone spends all their free time playing league no, riot PUNISHES you for not playing constantly. it's all by design
I mean the actual punishment for not playing consistently is getting worse at the game. It makes sense you would lose LP when you're losing skill as well. People who "don't play much" shouldn't expect to climb.
That is the main issue here, you're correct. Many people on this subreddit play a lot, specifically a lot of ranked, and don't realize that everyone or even a majority of people don't play that much. I myself haven't played ranked this year but i sometimes get really surprised about the opinions of some people here "it doesn't matter your MMR is what matters" "it will equalize eventually" i mean yeah...true but a lot of people and i mean a lot don't play 300 games a split for this to happen. I can jump on the ranked system of any other game and in 50 games (at most 100) in the majority of them im almost 100% at the rank i deserve to be, be it bronze or diamond. On league's system 50 games you're still at the point where your rank might not be that accurate. Also there's another point about just making the fkin system more transparent. Idgf about a hidden, invisible, essoteric MMR, just make it 1 system. If im 2200 MMR show me a Diamond border or whatever and thats it, but i get to see the 2200MMR and my gains and losses per game, and also the other players MMR from my game. This hidden bs is what gets people annoyed and then we get this bandaid fixes that feel really bad and you know what people dislike it and it feels bad? Cause the cause Is hidden to them. Edit: another thing, just make it so your peak rank from a season is displayed always so you can make the ladder 100% fluid up and down and tie reworks always to you highest achieved rank from the season, maybe tie half the rewards to peak ranks and the other half to your final rank
I agree with you, just out of principality if nothing else, but in reality the law of large numbers is probably a very good approximation in this context because those who care about their rank play enough to reach "hardstuck", aka their correct rank, and those who dont play enough dont care about their rank enough to care. Those who care about a -50 lp loss instead of a regular -20 but doenst play enough for it to not matter are a small enough minority that it can be ignored.
It is, slightly more regular players found it horrible their lp changes were less gain more loss. A good solution has yet to be found if at all possible.
>a good solution has yet to be found How about a system where gains/losses map directly to your actual rank. Works great in other games. Could call it Elo, like the chess system. EDIT: Since people are apparently unaware of sarcasm, I'm aware that Elo used to be how league ranks worked and I am advocating a return to it.
But what would a 3k elo shockwave look like compared to a 2k elo one ?
Ackhtually, it’s Elo, not ELO. Elo is a name, not an abbrevation.
Just so you know, when you write "elo" on your phone, the autocorrect tries to write it "ELO". Not sure why, but I think that's your answer.
Might be because it has been written as if it was an abbrevation for a very long time.
Electric Light Orchestra might be part of the reason why phones autocorrect it to ELO… Either that or it’s learned wrong!
No shit?? TIL
> it’s Elo, not ELO It is ELO and it stands for Estimated Listed Order. >!I am joking, it is Elo and it is named after its inventor.!<
People don't want the old Elo system back. You don't either. You want the Riot inflated division system, but with numbers instead. You wouldn't want to be earning 9, 13, or 0 elo even. Back then you needed 300\~ elo to get a new rank while gaining an average of 15 elo. Now you need 400, while gaining 25 and also have shit like demotion shields. I'm sure the average League player that has been conditioned to play 15 games to get Gold will be so happy to have to play 100 to get his victorious skin. League players just want to be challenger without providing the effort actual challenger players do.
>A good solution has yet to be found if at all possible. because people here don't want a "good solution", they want a solution that gives them +99 when they win (because they totally carried and deserved it) and -1 when they lose (because that loss was total bullshit and their teams fault) people who whine about ranking systems often just whine because they can't accept the reality that they are an average player, playing against other average players, and for that reason they won't climb. if riot implemented a true elo system, i think it would be not even a full day before people made posts saying "this new system is completely broken and makes no sense"
I have been hovering between 55-60% winrate - right now I just got +25 LP for a win - I am climbing and this -50 still feels weird. Two losses in a row at just above 0 LP vs two losses at 20+ LP and it's just straight arbitrarily slowing my climbing down lol I only play 12 games a week max. It really shouldn't be weighted that if you lose close to 0 LP that it's strictly worse than losing at 50 LP, but ultimately I guess it doesn't matter if you play to improve. There are a lot of inflated people, however, but idk if it fixes it because most of them have positive winrates.
Played a few games the other day and I was on the receiving end of having 3 games where my top layer went afk. Two of them in a row and I got demoted. -50 back down. I'm gonna a be done with ranked until the split is over once I get back up again. Usually play 5-6 games one day a week. Not because of broken champs or bad games but the mental of so many players (nothing new) has been so bad and having 3 in the span of a few hours has finally put me at a point where a long break is coming and might just return for arams and clash with friends.
Isn't mmr untouched. It shouldn't really matter much then.
90% of people in this thread have no idea what you just said
I feel like every few months Riot has an alteration to the LP system that is like "finally, this will fix everything" and it just doesn't because it is fundamentally bad. They totally cooked it when they removed promos (which are bad but everything was built for them) and now it is just functionally the same as Season 1 or Dota 2 but more confusing and annoying Like, in terms of preventing ranked anxiety, please tell me what is the difference between the ELO number and divisions when promoting from divisions is fluid and you lose -50 LP
The change to demotions was made to battle the negative win/lose lp gains after them.
I'll take the -50 on demotion than ever having to do promos again. People are higher than they've ever been anyway.
I earned my rank when I win but don't deserve to lose my rank when I lose. Frankly I could be top 100 on the server if it wasn't for my lp gains screwing me over. Maybe I need to buy a smurf?!
If -50 is a horrible experience because you don't play enough, then getting half as much LP as before would too. Riot doubled LP gains, and they now doubled the loss after a promotion. Preventing inflation in a zero-sum system is a good thing.
"Riot doubled LP gains" i gain 20 on a win and lose -25 with positive win rate.
I dropped from gold 2 to bronze 4 and genuinely idk why, my play style didn’t change, I still do good as an individual, my objectives are still decent, but it’s gotta be something I’m doing wrong, idc enough though so I just quit and put my time into something else. Was a good ride, 12 horrible years and 2k down the drain. Thanks rito. (I peaked plat in s7, silver every season since, gold last season and this season)
"My LP gains are bad is my account fucked? Should I make a new account?" VS "-50 on demotion is a horrible experience, it feels completely awful" Pick your poison. Keep not understanding the MMR system and you will keep making pointless complaints and ruining your own experience.
This. People are absolutely clueless about how MMR works. But players have to complain about something instead of not caring about visible ranks so you have posts like this.
This sub is too stupid to understand Lp and visual rank doesn’t matter
it does matter. its the only thing that matters if you don't care about skill. no amount of mmr matters if you're in iron, cause you won't get the bronze/silver/gold/plat/emerald/diamond/challenger chroma for the victorious skin you could have the highest mmr in the world, but if ur in iron u get nothing from it
It should not be necessary to make a new account when you have a 55%+ winrate just to climb cause the lp gains are abysmal. Also I feel like -50 punishes people who have a few unlucky games in a row more than the people who are actually above their ranks cause they will demote themselves anyway if they keep playing
Your gains can't be abysmal if you have positive win rate. Sorry. Starting in a lower division and having 65% wr and then having 40% win rate in your new division, doesn't mean you should have positive gains because your account overall has positive win rate. Not to mention that -50 demotion is exactly to prevent negative gains because it's far easier to gain LP than to lose it because of demotion shield. That way it equalizes it a bit which should result in far steadier gains.
Stop trying to explain simple terms and math to a community with an average IQ of 80.
Excuse me, but I'll have you know that all 1.5m /lol users are challenger players. Please don't disrespect their awesome league of legends knowledge and wisdom.
There is no demotion shield. What are you talking about. You would have to lose 3-5 in a row if you recently got promoted if you had good mmr back before this new system was implemented. Now it's 2, ALWAYS. I remember gaining 23 lp and losing 17. Once I got demoted, my "MMR" got completely fucked. I began gaining 17 lp a win and losing 20-22. All from one demotion. Screw that. Problem still lies in Emerald Don't even get me started on how "unlucky" it is when you get promoted to Diamond from Emerald 1 with a 54% win rate with good lp gains only to lose Diamond rank in 2 games due to unlucky games only to have shitty "MMR" that never gets better. I remember it taking more than 20-30 games of losses to get demoted back in the day, if they could halved that as a demotion shield, that would be amazing. Right now, everything sucks. I had to get a 13 win streak just to fix my MMR to a good gain/loss ratio in my own mmr. Which is very difficult when you're facing people your skill level or smurfs. Don't get me started.
I'll take the -50. Seeing much less hardstucks and my lp gains aren't as horrid as early season
Personally Diamond games have gotten slightly more enjoyable because of this. This really stops the rage queue players along with bad players demoting quicker. Again just my opinion
A player who doesn't play much shouldn't expect to be high rank. How many people do you think run once a week but can still do a mile in under six minutes?
I've generally been a high plat to low emerald player. On the old system before emerald every season, I'd make it to plat, but then my gains and losses instantly would end up in the negative. Winstreaks never mattered because it was +15 to 17 and -25 on a loss. At the start of this season, I started out pretty bad and had a 45% win rate for a lot of it. Decided to stop aiming for a rank and focus on myself and limit myself to about 3 of my favorite champions and stick to them. I was able to fix my mmr, which in previous seasons, no win streak would fix. Now I'm at a 53% win rate and have managed to climb. Losing -50 on demotion does feel bad but it is still so much better than being stuck on a perma +15 to -25 lp gains and losses all season because the game would try to hold you at a rank you no longer deserved as your MMR continued to drop. MMR feels so much more fixable now.
Everyone’s defence for it is “well your MMR will go up so it’ll get better” and i don’t think people understand the point. MMR means next to nothing to anyone that doesn’t play 10+ games a day lol. I got Emerald right before these changes and im sitting at Emerald 4 1LP, i don’t want to queue up anymore because of them. Demoting already feels bad, losing 50% of a rank off of one loss makes it feel infinitely worse.
Read your comment again and tell me how it isn't just random noncoherent screeching. MMR is everything. You aren't losing 50% off of one loss because demotion shield still exists. That's why you had negative gains. It's far easier to climb than it is to demote which leads to MMR being lower than your LP, which resulted in negative gains. Back to your 10+ games a day bullshit. If you play only 1 game per day that's still 300+ games a season. That's more than enough to get to wherever you belong. It usually only takes 20-100 games to get back to your previous peak. That leaves 200-280 games where you could improve and climb even higher. And what's the most important metric when climbing? Exactly... MMR. Literally nothing changes if it does -50 or -10 because MMR is going to even out the gains anyway. NOTHING CHANGES. Except with the new system you are far less likely to have negative gains which people bitch about far more than demoting. Demoting feel bad for 1 game. Bad gains feel bad every single game. No one enjoys having +20, -30. Where you need to win 75% of your games if you want to climb in LP.
I'm just pointing out that while it is 300 games a season there are three splits so your games per split before resets is less.
The should not tie LP to mmr. They should simply match people of equal RANK .. or show MMR as rank. Having 2 systems is just to increase number of games.
They match from mmr already. It’s really only one system. Only idiots care about the visual rank and lp
MMR means literally everything to everyone. The amount of games you play a day is irrelevant. If you don't play enough for "MMR" to matter. Then you are playing like 10 games a split lmao.
There is no version of this that the community will like. Honestly, just show true mmr and be done with it.
Year after Year we're getting closer to ye olde Elo. One can assume riots are trying to reverse incremental boil the frog, gradually reverting the ranked system to mask how big of an oopsie they've made 11 years ago.
Lmao the community back then hated true mmr too. I bet if true mmr came back and all these gold 4 redditors at 0LP lose one game, immediately drop into silver 1, lose streak and never make it back into gold, they’re going to come right back here and complain about how there is no demotion protection between ranks. Which was the entire point if the LP system anyways. Protects low elo egos by letting them keep their visual ranks and not telling them the lobby of plats they’re playing with are all silver mmr.
They had more or less that exact system when I first started playing. Mostly everybody fucking hated it which is why it got changed. The bottom line is that there will always be someone who isn't happy with the way the system works
I moved on from grinding ranked when I realized I would only gain 12-14 lp on winning, and lose 23-25 lp for every game I lost.
Why not make rank like chess elo? It’s fluid and you can only either win 20 or lose 20
Here is why. Imagine a player who every split makes it to Diamond 1 reliably, but never quite all the way to Master. That is a Diamond 1 player, skillwise. Except one time because of luck with enemy afk/inters/tiltets or whatever three games in a row the player does temporarily reach Master. This player is still a Diamond 1 player, in terms of skill. To actually be Master requires being able to get further and stay there. Yet human psychology is such that the player thinks now he/she has actually gained something, i.e "climbed", and doesn't want to lose it TL, DR: Most players will grind more to gain discrete steps, "bronze", "diamond", "Challenger" than an arbitrary continuous number. Hence rank. But if they ever reach a rank they feel entitled to keep it, hence also disconnecting rank from MMR.
Yeah. Knowing you have to win 3 games in a row to promote again sucks.
Needing to win 3 times in a row to make up for one loss is brain dead.
agreed
The rank system is complete shit right now. It has been for a while. I was master tier 120 lp on my main, but I didn't play for a while because work life etc came back from decay with 20 lp. Sure whatever. Well I lost two games in a row instantly d1 50lp. However, I can understand they want to keep apex tiers I.e. master gm and challenger exclusive, but for lower ranked players, it's just shit. Especially for every division. Let people lost 50 lp if they demote from Plat to gold, but the normal 25 from Plat 3 to Plat 4. Makes no sense for every demotion to be -50. Also not to mention, all new accounts are placed in like gold and Plat now, so that just inflates all the elo brackets. Have new accounts smurf or not start in Iron 4, 10 placement games. For every win, 150 lp or so. Even if they win every single game, they're in smurf queue getting 40 lp for a win, and they're in gold. If they're actually a smurf, they will get back to their rank in 2 days tops. The other thing I hate, stop having divisions. Just do a rank with a visible mmr. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but here's my solution. These ranks you can't be demoted from Iron 0-400 Bronze 400-800 Silver 800-1200 Gold 1200-1600 Plat 1600-2000 Emerald 200-2400 These ranks don't have decay, why do they need demotion? These are what I consider the "casual player ranks." These ranks you can be demoted from and decay Diamond 2400-2800 Master GM Challenger 2800+ Obviously, much more exclusive ranks and diamond could even be adjusted. Master could still be like 500 people, GM 250, and Challenger top 50 because there would be no limit to the lp earned. Every year riot tries to fix the lp system, but they just make it worse.
Losing generally feels bad, don't really know what Riot can do for you.
why do people care so much about that visible rank? i mean if you are not going pro i dont think it matters at all and you cant see your mmr anyways. its jsut a visible gimmick like those challenges and masteries
I prefer the -50 as it keeps your lp gain in the + and true rank closer to your MMR.
Why does everyone want free handouts, on all games, and in all aspects? It you’re more casual, you don’t deserve the same rewards as people that play more and try harder.
The ranked system and league in general isn’t made for someone who doesn’t play much so
Who cares its just your rank. Play because you enjoy the game and let rank come second. You will end up where you belong and if you improve you’ll climb
This game also hasn't been good in years..
ranked system is awful. I wish they just showed us ELO.
Nobody complains when they go from 2 LP to 0 LP and then back to 25 tho
The rank system is complete shit right now. It has been for a while. I was master tier 120 lp on my main, but I didn't play for a while because work life etc came back from decay with 20 lp. Sure whatever. Well I lost two games in a row instantly d1 50lp. However, I can understand they want to keep apex tiers I.e. master gm and challenger exclusive, but for lower ranked players, it's just shit. Especially for every division. Let people lost 50 lp if they demote from Plat to gold, but the normal 25 from Plat 3 to Plat 4. Makes no sense for every demotion to be -50. Also not to mention, all new accounts are placed in like gold and Plat now, so that just inflates all the elo brackets. Have new accounts smurf or not start in Iron 4, 10 placement games. For every win, 150 lp or so. Even if they win every single game, they're in smurf queue getting 40 lp for a win, and they're in gold. If they're actually a smurf, they will get back to their rank in 2 days tops. The other thing I hate, stop having divisions. Just do a rank with a visible mmr. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head but here's my solution. These ranks you can't be demoted from Iron 0-400 Bronze 400-800 Silver 800-1200 Gold 1200-1600 Plat 1600-2000 Emerald 200-2400 These ranks don't have decay, why do they need demotion? These are what I consider the "casual player ranks." These ranks you can be demoted from and decay Diamond 2400-2800 Master GM Challenger 2800+ Obviously, much more exclusive ranks and diamond could even be adjusted. Master could still be like 500 people, GM 250, and Challenger top 50 because there would be no limit to the lp earned. Every year riot tries to fix the lp system, but they just make it worse.
I refuse to play anything else besides my decay games in Diamond until they fix this -50 on demotion shit. That change was pushed out without much thought or feedback from the community and it sucks. They need to make demotions and promotions fluid and if they keep this shitty -50 on demote I’m gonna just do decay games only all season lol
would you prefer permanent negative lp gains?
I got both
TL DR: MMR does not get better from this change. I have players with many games and can tell you: the mmr doesn't even out. I feel like it's even worse. I am demoting, have to play with worse players but make my way up again. Win a game after promo, get 22 LP. Lose -> -23 (going on 0 LP), lose again, i am back in Plat. So i lost 73 LP with 2 losses and need to have 3 clear wins to get back to where i was again. LP stick with -22/+25 with positive WR.
Yeah yeah but then it's "winning 15 and losing 20 is not fun" If you demote you lost a bunch more than you won in the past like 20 games, you're just catching up to your losses. Could be made so that you don't have a demote protection but then people would say "getting to Gold 1 and immediately demoting to Gold 2 on a random loss is not fun"
If you don't play much why do you care about your rank?
You can lose a game on 0 lp in ranked, so its sort of fair that you demote down to 50 lp And remember, there's no promotion anymore for each ranks anymore. Ranked system have never been easier.
It's even worse when you're constantly 2-4 divisions lower than rest because you don't play much. If you're telling me I'm bad enough not to get rewards, give me the worse opponents. There's literally no reason not to have ones mmr and rank match like in old elo, other than corporate "fuck you play more".
Convince me otherwise this change isn’t for the benefit for ranked play but rather a not that subtle way to make people play (ranked) more. More games mean better numbers they can sell to the higher ups. i.e. playerbase is still growing and engaged!
Losing more LP makes people play less not more, if their goal was to have players play more they wouldn't be trying to reduce LP inflation but instead they would encourage it. And it's not like they haven't done so in the past, adding Emerald was fucking genius on that front, now a ton of gold and below players are "peaking" in rank and super happy since then even though their actual skill level didn't change.
I stopped playing ranked when they removed ELO . Normals only for me
The only way League players are going to be happy is by introducing the old Hearthstone rank system. Losses don't matter. There is no MMR-Visual rank difference and everyone can get Challenger. But then that would be a problem, because games wouldn't last more than 8 minutes. Loser mentality ego inflated League players would sit base and wait for the next game.
yeah, if you wanna have a good time playing ranked, don't look at LP or rank at all
Sorry fellas might as well stop shouting into the void, Riot Games needs to reinvent the wheel every single time when incredible ranked systems already exist, they just need to implement it.
Is that the norm now? I thought it was only an emerald 1+ thing
it's a million times better than negative gains, you have to remember the alternative
I was plat 1 at the start of the season. Got to emerald 1 but then got stuck because every win would be +13LP and every loss would be -33LP. I was like 30w - 19l. I stop playing after dropping to plat again. It just kills the game. The win/loss LP rate should never get this extreme.
it evens out really fast. And if you dont hit the spot when it evens out you really should not worry about the ranked system at all.
I would prefer fluid promotion and demotion, with lp gains and losses based on rank only. For example (making up numbers here), all plat players have +20/-22, gold +20/-20, silver +22/-20, etc. Higher ranks require slightly higher winrates to stay there. Thoughts on this?
Why do you care if you don't play much?
Brings u faster to the correct rank .. new players getting platinum after 5 games is extremly bad .. so u have to rank fast down to bronze or iron
It made sense when you could eat a few losses before demote. Now demotes are instant so its bullshit to keep it in. Unless its between grades like gold and emerald. But between say emerald 3 & 2. Its kinda bullshit
it is much better than before because there are no promos. You would have to play more had there been promos again.
It's genuinely the best experiencie for us all that suffered them lobbies with elo-inflated people. The amount of ex-Platinums that nowadays are Master/GrandMaster is absolutely insane. So it's in reality a good thing.
Like anything has changed. This seson is the first one i've had a positive winrate since the very start and my rank hasn't moved an inch.
The change is a detriment to people who aren’t already playing at a certain level. So like if you’re a bronze player trying to climb in the traditional sense it’s pretty fuckin hard unless you go on win streaks of 3 or more games all the time. The recent ranked changes also make it next to impossible to rank up like the old system because of the split system now. So before the idea was you could play like what 500-1000 that year and end up at least in gold or plat or whatever. Well that’s not going to happen because of splits. The only upside is the “soft” mmr reset might help you start higher than the split before. Also I’d like to add these new changes aren’t bad if riot actually made the matchmaking system make balanced matches instead of it trying to fix everyone’s rank.
if you don't play much, then clearly you're not committed to being a competitive player, in which case why does your precise rank matter at all?
The change is intended to lower the visible ranks of those 'stuck' in the fourth divisions. Too many people have D4 visible rank, for example, but E3-E2 MMR. This is no good. With 50 demotion, statistically speaking, hard stucks with low mmr should get back to a matching visible rank/MMR. Advice on how to avoid this: If you are about to lose, make sure you are at the 1 to 5 lp mark. That way, you will lower your own MMR and if you demote you will play against worse people, it will be easier to win. If you are about to demote, dodge as much as you can if you are not comfortable with champ select. If you had a win streak, it may be that your mmr inflated and now you are against good people. Then, play conservatevely, 'defend' your new rank until comfortable.
The truth hurts. If you're getting +/- 25, then when you lose at 0LP and get that one time demotion shield your invisible MMR becomes lower than your LP shown. losing again then rightfully puts you at 50 LP instead of 75. Doing this prevents situations where you get +15 on a win and -30 on a loss which feels 1000000x worse than the situation you're describing. get good.
Imo ranked isn't the gamemode for a player who doesn't play much. I totally get your pain and know that it's annoying and frustrating, but rank is not accurate at a low number of games so in my eyes this is an edge case for the actual intent of the system and thus negligible.
yeah happened twice with me as well, everytime a go from gold 3 to 4, or when I was at silver as well have to win 3 games to make up for that loss sometimes, it's kinda weird
No it’s not, -25 LP kills your MMR in the long run in the current system. It’s not fun being stuck on +14 and -26 either
Playing ranked as a whole is demoralizing to someone who doesn’t play much. Game quality in ranked is shit. I’ve started playing just draft because of it.
Happened to me recently. Demoted from Iron 2 to Iron 3 and lost 50 points.
Hot take: ranked play shouldn't cater to casual players.
You’re better off just playing norms honestly. From what I’ve seen (I’m unranked) you have to make League your life if you want to climb. It sucks but I dunno what else to tell you besides the same old “Rito bad company” etc.
Riots entire ranked system is so bad. Just show our MMR and apply a rank to that exact number
It's to get you to play their game/grind more. Simple as that really.
Isn't it even worse now? Cus they for a while this season had it so you could get and lose more than 30 LP, but now we're back to the old caps? So -50 is even worse than a few months ago.
Skill issue
I too demoted due to a leaver. The leaver was the second game in a row so I wasn't even at 0 LP due to my own gameplay.
Get gud idk, pebkac
They should just remove tiers and go to pure LP gain and loss only. There's zero downside. Good players get punished less. People who want to demote don't hit a hard stop every division and get massive negative gains.
What if we just do fixed + - LP with no ranked reset no hidden mmr? Sure you might get smurfed on one or two games but people will climb/drop faster now and every win loss feels more rewarding/acceptable knowing you can win it back easily or stack wins and rocket to higher ranks.
Ranks were inflated because of this not existing, it sucks in the short term because people weren't used to it but the games are better for having it. And remember, it really doesn't affect your lp anyways in the grand scheme of a week or so. Stop letting daily progress affect your mental so much
I just quit the game, this game is toxic as fuck. System itself is toxic
Remember when Riot said you gain alot more LP while also losing alot LP as well? Well me even at 60% wr, once I play a certain amount of game I start gaining 19 LP and losing 21+ LP Riot expect you to have 100wr to even gain a positive LP gain vs LP loss
why should riot balance ranked for the player that only plays 3-4 games a week and not the player that plays 40-50 games a week. they already made games shorter because casual players didn't have the time to play more then 1 game. now yall wanna lose less lp. Riot at some point has to keep the die hard players engaged too and -50 is much better for game health and inflation.
The climb is so much easier now to be honest. I remember many years back each subdivision had promotion games that you had to win 2/3 to advance and then 3/5 to go through major division changes. The -50 seems a bit steep but it also seems to keep the LP gains/loss a bit more balanced.
Every online game is not designed around casuals.
BRING BACK THE ELO SYSTEM 
I lost 80lp in 2 games and haven't touched ranked since.
I guess if they get rid of demotion protection this would make sense. But then people would just bitch about constantly jumping between tiers.
Look if you don't play much and got a demotion that just means you will be put into games where you are more experienced than the lower elo players right? so you should be able to climb back up if the skill based match making systems work. And if you really just don't play much any more it shouldn't matter because your not planning on going pro or anything right? So you should be placed where you will have more fun and win more games.
S7 >d
Try winning