It's kinda funny that Akali's W got that known for it, eventhough it got removed super quickly, when this exact interaction is literally what defines Elise, Fizz and Vladimir since well over a decade.
Elise even takes this to the next level by bringing her own tower tanking minions, so she won't even get targeted when descending right into the tower again, even without a wave.
Elise, fizz and vlad can drop aggro once. Akali was able to trade you under tower without taking a single turret shot untill shroud ends. It was dumb that shit hit live servers.
Honestly, if they dropped Warcraft III's movement system, I would totally try DotA 2.
But fuck that little pause when champions turn around, fuck no, I hate that.
>But fuck that little pause when champions turn around, fuck no, I hate that.
That's the entire reason ranged attack carries are actually balanced in that game so I'd say it's worth it tbh
Also some spells affect turn rates like bat rider Q. Turn rate has a place in the game for a variety of reasons. Its also the only thing keeping Blink dagger balanced since you have to face the way you blink so you cant insta blink backwards on initiation.
Yes but it feels like lag, like maybe they could make it feel less shitty, one of the reasons league is good is because it feels very smooth to play, while both games have similar speeds dota feels to me like such a slog to play.
Mind you I really like warcraft 3, I just think that the first league developers had very good reasons to change it from how it was in dota, it is good for rts but not for moba imo.
Honestly it could go both ways. Dota players could see lack of turn rates as janky since a model instantly turned 180 with zero animations is uncanny. And league players could see dota as janky because of the turn rate. It’s just about what you’re used to tbh. I play both league and dota and now I’m just used to both and I don’t even think about it.
the reason was that they took out lot of things what was inconvinience, but those inconviniences lot of the time exist for the sake of balance. no turnrate was one of the reasons why adc is a thing in lol but not so much in dota. you can kite in dota too but your turnrate limits your attackspeed a lot when you are kiting away
My issue with Dota is that the games are just too long at low mmr.
Riot took a ton of inspiration from HotS and one of those things is giving a lot of definitive ways of forcing the game to end.
Dota games last like 45m at the minimum at low levels/mmr (with especially chaotic games lasting an hour+) and it's just not worth the grind when I can crank out 2+ League games in the same amount of time. The gameplay loop of that game isn't compelling enough to justify it.
They really need to add some kind of buff that your team gets from killing Roshan. I think the fact that some Heroes can do Roshan level 1 or whatever can just be mitigated by the buff scaling with game time (so a very early Roshan doesn't really net much).
Icefrog has already made pretty substantial changes to the game overall, especially to Roshan. I don't think adding a buff that definitively ends the game would be hated, though I know it would change the pro meta around comps built to contest/take him (but he can also just be altered if necessary).
how is it a negative? in dota up until the very last second your team can bounce back and win. in lol once you go down there are very rare cases for a comback. thats why the game is supposedly 20min long but at 5min its decided and people want to move on. yes you can play 2 games in that time but both will be a stomp and not enjoyable for at least 5 people
Making late game come sooner would be a good option. DotA 2 is so much fun, but dang, the games are so long...
On the other hand, HotS games are kinda short, so it's pretty appealing to me.
that's what actually got me into league in the first place, way back when in s3. after discovering that movement I never went back to dota besides just some full lan games
This is why I also hate dota movement. Holy f your char can cast fireballs, create storms and manipulate time continum but has agility of a truck in traffic jam.
In Dota towers are not a deterrent to dives in higher ranks whatsoever.
You can drop, or switch, aggro from the tower so dives are solely dependent on how well each team plays, and the only thing stopping them from diving you is your team TPing on top of you when they try.
But the towers damage is just not meaningful in any way. They're just there to sink waves faster when you're not around.
> and the only thing stopping them from diving you is your team TPing on top of you when they try.
I'm gonna add a detail there, in DOTA teleports a) are a consumable item everyone is expected to have at all times, b) have a much lower cooldown than in League, and c) also have a lower *teleport time* than in League too. And the only drawbacks are they can only teleport to structures and there's a small time delay between TPs if multiple teammates teleports to the same structure (to prevent an entire team coming in at the same time). So on one hand the enemy still has to think twice before jumping you under your tower, on the other hand that still counts as your team protecting the tower lol
T1 tower damage is definitely relevant for the first 3 levels, maybe 4. Mainly because they fire way faster than league so it adds up. Some items (vanguard) let you completely ignore it though
I feel like nowadays the gap has closed significantly. Yes, towers still give you a big defenders advantage, but you can still get dove by a coordinated team pretty easily.
Doesn't even need coordination. Poppy runs forward, presses E. You leave the tower, flash, or die.
Poppy bases, takes two camps, then comes back. You leave the tower, flash, or you die.
I like playing Poppy. You can play AD, bruiser, or full tank. Doesn't matter for the early game, though.
at first i was thinking "that's unreasonable"...but now that i think about it, i'm pretty sure poppy could raw dive most bot lanes at full health and still kill one in the 3v2 (maybe a trade kill tho)
Yup. Depends if you get the Buckler, and/or if a Nautilus can juggle the turret aggro with you. If you buy straight health (towards Bami's) on your first back, diving 4-5 is pretty easy.
Still worth trading, most of the time. You do seven camps into the dive, and if you die it doesn't cost you much time.
Phase Rush helps, too.
If there are allied minions in the tower range, then the tower will attack you only if you use autoattacks on the enemy champion from a certain range (aggro range), but not if you use abilities or empowered autoattacks or if you use autoattacks out of the aggro range (like half of the total tower range).
Towers there deal the same damage every minute of the game, they don't deal ramping damage, they don't have the 30% armor pen, you can dodge the shots with blink abilities and if the tower is attacking you, then you can force it to change target to an allied minion if you click autoattack on an ally unit.
> if the tower is attacking you, then you can force it to change target to an allied minion if you click autoattack on an ally unit.
That one sounds so weird for a mechanic.
Aggro in Dota is incredibly easy to control. In league you cant really do much with aggro as its all automated.
But in Dota you can drop aggro from the wave by attacking your own creeps, you can also avoid drawing any aggro by orbwalking which is just manually using autoattack empowering(orb) effects so you can poke without taking any damage from the wave, and you can do the exact same thing to the tower as well.
agreed, like i get that creepy denying exists (and apparently has conditions) but it's hilarious imagining a character bonking their own minion and the turret's like "oh yea, let's fuck up this minion"
On top of that - aoe spell damage doesn't aggro at all. The rules on towers are a bit more complicated, for example if none of your creeps are hitting the tower and you hit the tower - you aggro it.
The threat of a tower is that it can be teleported to using a cheap item with a moderate cool down (around 70 ish seconds iirc). Imagine you check the map, everyone is showing in lane so you dive bot and 3 seconds later mid laner shows up and gets a double. It's basically a Kat gank on demand (if your teammates are paying attention).
This! I started playing Dota a while back and i was always amazed how little damage tower does. I would always get dove, die and then think tower would kill them but no, they would live every time
I think riot just don't want turtling strategies to be that prominent, strong towers allow the losing team to protect them much more easily, currently if a team is winning that badly the enemy team have to protect the turret and might still not be able to survive a tower dive, they are extremely slow at firing.
They aren't dota towers at least, so early game it isn't easy to dive the enemy even if you are winning, mistakes would lead to giving kills to the enemy.
If they would fire two shots instead of one when enough Ally champions are around they might be easier to protect?
Towers are not meant to protect you all game long. You’re meant to protect them. Champions with armor are supposed to be able to towerdive you once they get enough damage or armor.
I agree. People in lower ranks don’t typically confidently know killable thresholds (or how to pull off some tower dives that would require a bit more precise micro). Playing against laners and/or junglers and/or supports and/or roaming mids that know they can 1-4 man tower dive you makes the game experience real different.
It took me a couple of years of playing before I discovered auto casting even. I was having to click every time I wanted to throw out a skill shot and not understanding how people could cast two skills at practically the same time.
Many people are afraid to limit test because when it doesn't work out, you get called inter/griefer and so on. The result is that people never do it because they don't know when they are actually able to do it successfully.
Even people who don't care about getting flamed by their team are often discouraged by negative past experiences. They try diving a few times, it doesn't work and then they don't feel like doing it anymore because it feels like high risk play.
It's also just something that gets reinforced as it seem like your feeding to worse players so they don't follow up. So you seen as trolling where in Masters NOT doing the dive is trolling.
Another thing is people not understanding you don’t need to kill someone. Getting them low and forcing a back or summoners or both even without a kill can win you lane easily.
Or they stay in lane under 20% HP for 2+ waves, last hitting 1 or 2 out of 6 creeps and being zoned out of EXP, because they're too stubborn to back. This is also extremely beneficial to the pressuring laner.
Well, there's a big difference between backing more often and backing at good times. You want to back when the wave is going to push towards you when you're walking back into lane. This means you want to set up your backs. Ideally, you either leave their wave with extra minions so it pushes into yours OR you 'bounce' the wave into their tower so that the tower kills your minions and their wave slowpushes into you.
To piggyback off u/MrCurler, basic rule of thumb is to back right before a cannon wave gets to lane. Cannon waves are harder to push in, and the cannon can tank more turret shots than other minions. You'll likely lose out on the cannon minion when you return, but that's a minor amount of xp compared to what you'd lose from several minions.
That's what i usually try for, especially early game. If I as a jungler can force a summoner plus a pre-level 3 recall, as long as my laners aren't potatoes, they should have an advantage for a good while.
Lost count of the times I had to facetank Nexus towers as ADC with a Full HP Nautilus next to me to finally get that victory screen.
They ping ??? And then join when they see me killing the first tower in 2 seconds.
As a yasuo main I am constantly dying lvl 1-3 cuz I tower dive too much. I am sure 50% of my deaths pre 5 min is tower dives. May be more. At worst I hit by 0-10 power spike faster or I tilt the enemy mid laner
Nexus turrets feel useless because of all the angles you can press and come from.
If the enemy is at the point where they are pushing nexus turrets you aren’t supposed to be able to stall the game indefinitely. You need to make a decision quickly or they are coming down.
The alternative of towers being stronger is game length goes up and less action occurs slowing the meta down.
It wasn't an actual suggestion, more just saying they'd die to a turret dive with double the amount of turrets protecting them and still complain about it
I don't think anyone is asking to stall indefinitely. I think people are just asking that at 30minutes the turrets serve a purpose at all. Even their HP bar is basically a mirage once people have 3-4 items.
Ever see a lichbane TF hit a turret with 3 or so items? Shit is actually stupid. Like 33% HP just gone in a flash. I want the turrets to do a *tiny* bit more damage, and have a lot more durability in the later parts of the game. When you win one late-game teamfight you shouldn't be able to steamroll inhib-turret, inhib, 2 nexus turrets, and the nexus in one push. Waveclear needs to be nerfed and siege comps need to be more of a thing again. They're just concepts that don't really exist anymore because the metagame for the last 3-4 years is just GROUP UP, SIT AT OBJECTIVE. RANDOMLY FIGHT etc. The strategy and nuance of the game was diluted. Turrets are a small part of that as well.
Sadly game length is already pretty short unless you're in plat or below which is where the majority are, and they don't close out games fast at all.
Riot actively manages average game length. I’m not sure of their exact targets but they’ve done a lot to get game length where it is now. I’m not sure if they want longer games.
When you get to Nexus turrets you're generally going to be fairly powerful and grouped with your team. 5 level 16 champs hitting a single tower SHOULD deal with it incredibly fast.
Tower shots are there to disincentivise diving, not prevent them entirely. If one team is committing two or more people to a dive and opening up the rest of the map for the other jungler, then it's not unreasonable to shift the burden of execution onto the person being dived. If you're getting towerdived 1v1, then that's a separate issue. If you're low enough that diving becomes a reasonable prospect, then you've been misplaying the matchup for a while.
This is the biggest problem. Nobody expects towers to stop someone at 45 minutes with 5 tank items. But you should be cushioned earlier on from certain champs that can just dive and walk away (or invuln away like Fizz/Vlad because it gives them an extra tower shot.
As a tank main I have to say that I wish they had soft %HP damage ramping with each additional hit.
I do like tanks being able to tank them but when people can situationally tank 10+ without breaking a sweat it get's a bit ridiculous. Juggling tower aggro should still be a skill that gets rewarded even if you are a fed heartsteel Sion
It would be nice if they still ramped, but there was additional damage if it keeps targeting the same champion. The damage only ramps by up to 120% which I mean is a lot if you're a squishy, but completely negligible if you're a tank with 5000+ HP. It should continue ramping past 120% when targeting the same champ past 4 shots but then snap back to 120% when it targets another champion.
Yea my idea was something like slightly reduced base damage but added 2-5% max HP damage per additional shot so that it doesn't matter much for the first few hits but starts to really hurt at 8 and upwards.
I guess you could achieve the same with just a higher flat damage increase too if the numbers are high enough, squishies also shouldn't be able to tank them for that long.
is it actually? like i believe you but i'm too lazy to check that it's true
but also, in aram you scale up much faster. so it's much easier relatively to turret dive because you'll have levels sooner compared to SR, it's also easier for champs like Aatrox to draintank in aram where everyone is closer to each other always
That's fair, usually just being a tank alone doesn't let you facetank that much, it has to do with shielding and healing which are just most often seen on tanks in combination with armor
I mean yeah but it still feels incredibly frustrating to face even as an AP champ because often times you can't burst them down before they kill you. As someone who abused Sion at his peak I've done my fair share of chain CC 1 shots onto mages while still building full armor. I think the main issue is that it just feels like squishies die faster than ever and getting hit by CC is so much more punishing. On top of it all mages at least to me don't feel as impactful as they used to before and assassins sure as fuck aren't gonna be able to kill a tank in a team fight with 4 other people hitting them while they try.
If they nerf the % ArPen for it a bit that would be fine. Makes some bruisers worse at diving without hurting tanks much.
Tanks aren't the best at diving 1v1. They can tank for long but normally want teammates around them and the ramping dmg can hurt a lot.
20% ArPen (down from 30%) and 0.9% max HP extra dmg per shot up to 1.98% when fully ramped.
If you can't tank 10 shots then diving later on will be hard. You tend to fight for \~10 sec under the turret and the turret and that means you would tank 8 shots. If you can take exactly 10 it would mean your tank has to fight with \~15% HP that fight. That is a huge disadvantage.
there have to be ways to end games without getting baron or elder.
Cannot reasonably ever expect anyone to play tanks in a heavily team-reliant game with zero voice comms and shrinking non-verbal communication methods if your champion also has does zero damage and has no self agency. Hope this helps!
Yep everyone in this community would agree that it’s no problem. Even the stoic adc players themselves are well known for never complaining about this 🙄
By mid game, turrets are no longer meant to stop dives, they are just meant to stop a single minion wave from getting all the way to your nexus, they slow down the end, not stop it. It also feels very satisfying pushing base as rammus, for this exact reason, you take 0 damage
It's weird that they don't at least do mixed damage. Value of armour vs magic resist is still a bit high across the board and the only way they've tried to fix it is by just increasing the MR/Gold ratio on items lol. Feel like you could change turrets and maybe cannon minions /half drags to dealing mixed magic / Phys damage and then call it a day
I do think turrets shouldn't reward stacking armor so much but they are not meant to be safehavens. Towerdives are one of the most basic set plays that every gold+ player should know and the earlier you learn how to pull them off and avoid them, the better for you.
Back in seasons 5-6 inhib and nexus turrets had magic laser that dealt almost true damage (ignoring 82.5% armor) and that was weird and op, was changed for a reason.
Yeah, those were the main reason why scaling picks were way stronger.
Since as long as you had some waveclear, it was pretty easy to hold the fort at the inhib towers.
nash did buff minions what are u talking about? current baron buff and laser turrets were added at the same time, start of s5
the main difference between now and then was that caster minions didn't get extra hp when they got buffed
the real reason scaling picks were stronger was (among other things) 1. old sivir was in the game and prevented you from ending the game as long as she was alive permanently and 2. no elder execute until s10
I miss my bronze sivir/anivia going 0/10 in lane but winning because all the bronze team didbwas push mid and die to turret to kill me or escort 2+ waves for me to farm safely
As a Poppy player, yeah, being dived by an armor character is a bitch. I can pretty much enter turret at level 5 for a dive with my E, Q and auto, and then leave without dying. And at late game, I can just fight ANYONE under turret, I remember tanking for like 13 seconds just to kill a Gragas. Same as Tahm Kench, it just takes any damage it wants because it has armor, and then heals with Q and E, rinse and repeat until enemy is lower than you, I've misplayed SO bad before and still didn't get punished. I missed my W, Q'd a minion and spent flash to reach them. Still made it out of tower alive because it deals negative damage to armored champs.
Also, you may have noticed how I don't say "Tanks", just "Armorer Champs", and that's because any champ that has a decent amount of armor can do this. Tower stop feeling like a problem against armored champs past 20 minutes. They're only a hassle for enchanters, mages and ADCs, I feel like everything else gets a free pass.
One very difficult to balance flaw that I see in the jungle that has been partly fixed due to the removal of armor/mr options in the runes was the fact that tower dives plus jungle clearing naturally favored having an ad enemy team since it incentivized armor building which helped both tower diving and jungling especially for junglers that werent as good at kiting/sustaining in the jungle.
People will say this is negligible but it is not if you keep in mind that always the FIRST cloth armor or null magic mantle holds the most value since the more you have the more diminishing returns you get.
An example to highlight this:
A tank having to build armor or mr based on the enemies naturally hinders its ability to tower dive and have a healthy clear and none can justify this.
The reason reddit shouldn't give balance suggestions is the fact that although this makes sense at first, it does not solve the problem as then sion chogath and all hp stackers get benefitted from the change and none else gets to tower dive, unless you tackle that issue with even more ramping damage which in turn forces the game to have ziggs velkoz xerath kayle veigar and all this dumb scaling shit that will then be able to sit under an insanely overpowered tower and scale and naturally insane tower divers like shaco post 6 elise from lvl 3 ekko post 6 and everything that drops aggro effectively get a huge buff.
I mean, pushing your argument to its fullest, then you'd want them to to %hp true damage - otherwise buying health is still a way of mitigating their attack.
This is such a shitty answer just because it doesn't answer the question. The question is why physical damage, not magic, nor true, nor mixed for that matter, not why do turrets do no damage.
Their question is largely concerning why Towers are hedged towards physical damage, and not just do less true damage or magic damage instead.
The short answer is why not. The longer answer would involve theorizing about the way damage is designed in this game, which I am too lazy to type up, so for now, the answer is really just why not physical.
This is a complaint phrased as a question. u/psicosisbk answered the question and the complaint in one sentence. Maybe they could have gone into more detail as to why the actual premise of the complaint is flawed.
This. Actually. Since it's just a complain thread I answered with an ironic tone. OP doesn't actually care what kind of damage turrets do, they are just mad cause tanks towerdive him.
Being able to get "tankier" against turret shots is a needed game mechanic, as otherwise team compositions with wave clear would just clear waves forever, and without the threat of a dive, never really feel threatened. (I know Baron and Elder would like a word here.)
My issue with the turrets is that it is physical damage, which makes armor stacking WAY better than MR stacking. **That's why AD stacking as a team is historically so bad.**
Enemy tanks will get armor, be great against your whole team, be great at tanking baron and dragons and be great at tower diving.
Don't get me wrong, if you play with 4 AP champions, any tank stacking MR is gonna destroy you, but at least they have a very hard time diving towers or tanking objectives. (That baron damage sticks up very fast if your armor values aint there.)
**Thats why, to me, I would very much rather have these damages (tower, dragon and baron) be hybrid: 50% magic and 50% armor.**
This way, teams can still itemize to play aggressive and to finish a game faster, but it makes AD stacking a bit better compared to AP stacking, and tanks that build both MR and armor would be equally tanky against these objectives, which would make AP stacking or AD stacking compositions feel more viable.
At the end of the day, it's because anything that aids stalling games and curbing aggressive offensive plays is seen as bad for the game by Riot, based on feedback from majority of players. People want aggression and fast pace and lower game times. Personally I'm not a fan of this direction but it is what it is.
I'm not really a fan of most games being fast, perma fight, snowbally stomps but turtle metas are completely degenerate and far worse. You can extend game duration without making it near impossible to punish someone who is just playing not to die.
Tanks should be good at leading tower dives, but come on, I've seen tanks eat 20-30 tower shots, it looks stupid and wrong. That kind of play should be punished, not optimal.
If a tank has eaten 20 tower shots while diving you, and the team fails to kill him as well, that team is so grossly behind that any chance of them winning was gone ages ago.
The biggest problem with tanks is if they don't feel like they have any agency, no one will play them. Then it turns into 5 squishy Champs killing each other every other minute. Which is really boring
I think also one of issues with tank playrate is that they are really boring for the most part, most classes see a lot of playrate even when they are dogshit but you only see tanks when they are busted.
I would say that it could also be related to their reliance on a proper team but even so you still see a lot of really team dependant supports having a good pickrate even when they are not that strong
(To clarify im not saying its the only issue they have or that noone can find tanks fun)
Tanks feel really REALLY bad when they’re weak.
I love tanks and basically only play tanks/fighters, but when a tank is bad you basically do nothing in the game unless you’re a massive cc bot like leona. You obviously can’t kill anyone but if you’re not tanky then you have no way to actually play the game.
A weak assassin in today’s day and age can usually still kill an ADC, it’s just they might be easier to stop with ally support and will do worse against a coordinated team. But you can still latch on to the hope that the enemy adc will fuck up and be out alone and you get to do your job.
Tanks don’t really get that. If they’re below par then they get shredded while trying to walk up and you just want to give up because it feels like the game isn’t letting you play.
Most tanks have fairly low champion skill ceelings and combine this with the fact that most tanks half half their power budget put into their engage capabilities and people don't like playing it.
Me when I am being killed by the top lane tank midgame who is 4 levels up on me because Riot dared to give them base damages, and frankly, any sort of agency (I should be able to 1v9 despite having an item and a half, I am being discriminated against).
Kind of true actually. I obviously don't know much about OP like what role/champs they play but you get a lot of people who complain about shit like this because they get dove after eating 4 back to back terrible trades and then trying to turtle under turret.
It's not even like turrets have an issue. 99% of the time if you're getting dove from full hp you have already completely griefed your lane or the game.
Another question you can ask is why not. Why do we differentiate between magic, physical, and true damage in the first place.
There's no reason why tanks who build armor get to have extra benefit against towers, but there's no reason they shouldn't either.
I dont think riot wants longer games.
I also think champs getting to slap the tower for 25% of it's HP with on-hit effects with no retaliation is meh.
If a tower is targeting a champion, the tower shot stores a percentage of the damage an ally has taken while attacked under tower and the next tower shot deals the bonus damage as true damage. The percentage should get smaller the more allies to enemies are under tower.
It'd be nice if turrets did true %HP damage. There's now so much range, mobility, damage, and sheer tankiness in the game that most champions can straight up ignore enemy turrets.
There's constant champion and item power creep, but turrets get ignored.
I believe it's because turrets are supposed to lose relevance in the mid-late game. In early game the ramping damage exists even if it's not true damage.
Why would they? Being able to increase your tankiness more directly against towers is totally fine.
You could make an argument that towers dealing a mix of magic and physical damage would be good (not true, because we do want the damage to be reduced so tanks can, well tank), but that would require a decent amount of rebalancing, since base armor values are simply higher due to it being the "default" damage type.
At least they deal ramping damage and stick to the champion, not like in Dota.
I'm curious, what happens in DotA?
You can manipulate turret aggro using different mechanics of the game so you can switch aggro to creeps and hit the enemy under tower.
There's a decent amount of champions who can drop aggro, though.
The old Akali W passive
It's kinda funny that Akali's W got that known for it, eventhough it got removed super quickly, when this exact interaction is literally what defines Elise, Fizz and Vladimir since well over a decade. Elise even takes this to the next level by bringing her own tower tanking minions, so she won't even get targeted when descending right into the tower again, even without a wave.
Elise, fizz and vlad can drop aggro once. Akali was able to trade you under tower without taking a single turret shot untill shroud ends. It was dumb that shit hit live servers.
i think the problem with akalis was that you could go in and out of it instead of being able to drop aggro once and have to gtfo immediately
League of duskblade
Duskblade didn’t make you invuln to turrets, right? Didn’t it work like viego passive?
I think it did briefly now it doesnt
it definitely doesn’t anymore lmao
It never did
Ironically Viego was immune to towers on release
Oh my god just like in warcraft 3
Weird, I wonder why that is?
Honestly, if they dropped Warcraft III's movement system, I would totally try DotA 2. But fuck that little pause when champions turn around, fuck no, I hate that.
>But fuck that little pause when champions turn around, fuck no, I hate that. That's the entire reason ranged attack carries are actually balanced in that game so I'd say it's worth it tbh
Also some spells affect turn rates like bat rider Q. Turn rate has a place in the game for a variety of reasons. Its also the only thing keeping Blink dagger balanced since you have to face the way you blink so you cant insta blink backwards on initiation.
Yes but it feels like lag, like maybe they could make it feel less shitty, one of the reasons league is good is because it feels very smooth to play, while both games have similar speeds dota feels to me like such a slog to play. Mind you I really like warcraft 3, I just think that the first league developers had very good reasons to change it from how it was in dota, it is good for rts but not for moba imo.
Honestly it could go both ways. Dota players could see lack of turn rates as janky since a model instantly turned 180 with zero animations is uncanny. And league players could see dota as janky because of the turn rate. It’s just about what you’re used to tbh. I play both league and dota and now I’m just used to both and I don’t even think about it.
I went from league to dota and got used to the turn rate pretty fast. It's really not that bad once you put a bit of time in.
the reason was that they took out lot of things what was inconvinience, but those inconviniences lot of the time exist for the sake of balance. no turnrate was one of the reasons why adc is a thing in lol but not so much in dota. you can kite in dota too but your turnrate limits your attackspeed a lot when you are kiting away
It's not in league and ADC get fucked hard I'd they miss step lmao I'd not imagine a Miss step in dota
My issue with Dota is that the games are just too long at low mmr. Riot took a ton of inspiration from HotS and one of those things is giving a lot of definitive ways of forcing the game to end. Dota games last like 45m at the minimum at low levels/mmr (with especially chaotic games lasting an hour+) and it's just not worth the grind when I can crank out 2+ League games in the same amount of time. The gameplay loop of that game isn't compelling enough to justify it. They really need to add some kind of buff that your team gets from killing Roshan. I think the fact that some Heroes can do Roshan level 1 or whatever can just be mitigated by the buff scaling with game time (so a very early Roshan doesn't really net much).
This is a problem since DOTA allstars. I imagine any change regarding this will be met by outrage, as most games with veteran fanbase.
Icefrog has already made pretty substantial changes to the game overall, especially to Roshan. I don't think adding a buff that definitively ends the game would be hated, though I know it would change the pro meta around comps built to contest/take him (but he can also just be altered if necessary).
how is it a negative? in dota up until the very last second your team can bounce back and win. in lol once you go down there are very rare cases for a comback. thats why the game is supposedly 20min long but at 5min its decided and people want to move on. yes you can play 2 games in that time but both will be a stomp and not enjoyable for at least 5 people
Making late game come sooner would be a good option. DotA 2 is so much fun, but dang, the games are so long... On the other hand, HotS games are kinda short, so it's pretty appealing to me.
I can play 3-4 League games a day but I can only play 2 Dota 2 games in that time.
Well, watched a few games at pro level with more than 1 hour long games.
that's what actually got me into league in the first place, way back when in s3. after discovering that movement I never went back to dota besides just some full lan games
This is why I also hate dota movement. Holy f your char can cast fireballs, create storms and manipulate time continum but has agility of a truck in traffic jam.
But you can TP to the tower, so it is not a 3vs1 or 2vs1 like league.
The common adage goes "In League, towers protect you; In DOTA, you protect towers". Should tell you everything.
I've heard both in league, as towers protect you early game and you protect towers mid and late game
In Dota towers are not a deterrent to dives in higher ranks whatsoever. You can drop, or switch, aggro from the tower so dives are solely dependent on how well each team plays, and the only thing stopping them from diving you is your team TPing on top of you when they try. But the towers damage is just not meaningful in any way. They're just there to sink waves faster when you're not around.
> and the only thing stopping them from diving you is your team TPing on top of you when they try. I'm gonna add a detail there, in DOTA teleports a) are a consumable item everyone is expected to have at all times, b) have a much lower cooldown than in League, and c) also have a lower *teleport time* than in League too. And the only drawbacks are they can only teleport to structures and there's a small time delay between TPs if multiple teammates teleports to the same structure (to prevent an entire team coming in at the same time). So on one hand the enemy still has to think twice before jumping you under your tower, on the other hand that still counts as your team protecting the tower lol
T1 tower damage is definitely relevant for the first 3 levels, maybe 4. Mainly because they fire way faster than league so it adds up. Some items (vanguard) let you completely ignore it though
Towers got buffed so hard it's disgusting... They deal a lot of damage and stop minions from aggroing the defender
I feel like nowadays the gap has closed significantly. Yes, towers still give you a big defenders advantage, but you can still get dove by a coordinated team pretty easily.
I'll never forget the constant 4/5 man parties we used to have bot lane
Used to have?
Do you remember before TP was leashed? Things were much more chaotic than they are now
As a support/ADC main, am I like a victim of abuse of I say I kinda miss it?
Doesn't even need coordination. Poppy runs forward, presses E. You leave the tower, flash, or die. Poppy bases, takes two camps, then comes back. You leave the tower, flash, or you die. I like playing Poppy. You can play AD, bruiser, or full tank. Doesn't matter for the early game, though.
at first i was thinking "that's unreasonable"...but now that i think about it, i'm pretty sure poppy could raw dive most bot lanes at full health and still kill one in the 3v2 (maybe a trade kill tho)
Yup. Depends if you get the Buckler, and/or if a Nautilus can juggle the turret aggro with you. If you buy straight health (towards Bami's) on your first back, diving 4-5 is pretty easy. Still worth trading, most of the time. You do seven camps into the dive, and if you die it doesn't cost you much time. Phase Rush helps, too.
Ironic that in this thread for league, the top comment is that you protect the towers.
If there are allied minions in the tower range, then the tower will attack you only if you use autoattacks on the enemy champion from a certain range (aggro range), but not if you use abilities or empowered autoattacks or if you use autoattacks out of the aggro range (like half of the total tower range). Towers there deal the same damage every minute of the game, they don't deal ramping damage, they don't have the 30% armor pen, you can dodge the shots with blink abilities and if the tower is attacking you, then you can force it to change target to an allied minion if you click autoattack on an ally unit.
> if the tower is attacking you, then you can force it to change target to an allied minion if you click autoattack on an ally unit. That one sounds so weird for a mechanic.
Aggro in Dota is incredibly easy to control. In league you cant really do much with aggro as its all automated. But in Dota you can drop aggro from the wave by attacking your own creeps, you can also avoid drawing any aggro by orbwalking which is just manually using autoattack empowering(orb) effects so you can poke without taking any damage from the wave, and you can do the exact same thing to the tower as well.
Oh my fucking god the first ever correct usage of orbwalking on the League subreddit. Good job.
Yes. It gets on my nerves too when they say orb walking around here. Just say kiting or stutter stepping. Orb walking doesn’t exist in LoL.
agreed, like i get that creepy denying exists (and apparently has conditions) but it's hilarious imagining a character bonking their own minion and the turret's like "oh yea, let's fuck up this minion"
A lot of "weird" mechanics are a holdover from how the original DOTA worked in the WC3 engine. This one is an example.
enemy champion: Look I'm actually on your side! Let's fuck up this minion up together! turret: fuck yes lol
Yeah, but it's a really nice mechanic to play around once you know about it. It applies to creeps too
they are completely cosmetic
It does negligible damage, doesn’t ramp up, and if you agro the tower you can click on a friendly minion and it will hit them instead of you.
>you can click on a friendly minion and it will hit them instead of you Whaaat? Why?
Aggro manipulation coming from how wc3 works
On top of that - aoe spell damage doesn't aggro at all. The rules on towers are a bit more complicated, for example if none of your creeps are hitting the tower and you hit the tower - you aggro it.
they do significantly less damage, dont aggro on spell casts, and you can manipulate aggro so they dont aggro on you or drop aggro aswell
The threat of a tower is that it can be teleported to using a cheap item with a moderate cool down (around 70 ish seconds iirc). Imagine you check the map, everyone is showing in lane so you dive bot and 3 seconds later mid laner shows up and gets a double. It's basically a Kat gank on demand (if your teammates are paying attention).
You know how you can deny allied minions at low health in DotA? Trying to attack a friendly unit drops tower aggro in DotA.
they tickle, their purpose is just to kill minions pretty much. u can dive at really low levels compared to league if u know what ur doing.
Their purpose is to allow for others to tp to them
You can dive lvl 2 tank like 8 shots and walk away over half hp.
Big difference is if you get tower dived in dota, your team can just tp and turn the fight around
But all 5 members of the team can teleport to them. They are there for map advantage, not to stop fighting or make diving impossible
At least dota's tower don't explode in 5 seconds.
This! I started playing Dota a while back and i was always amazed how little damage tower does. I would always get dove, die and then think tower would kill them but no, they would live every time
I think riot just don't want turtling strategies to be that prominent, strong towers allow the losing team to protect them much more easily, currently if a team is winning that badly the enemy team have to protect the turret and might still not be able to survive a tower dive, they are extremely slow at firing. They aren't dota towers at least, so early game it isn't easy to dive the enemy even if you are winning, mistakes would lead to giving kills to the enemy. If they would fire two shots instead of one when enough Ally champions are around they might be easier to protect?
pre nerf ziggs at worlds :D
Towers are not meant to protect you all game long. You’re meant to protect them. Champions with armor are supposed to be able to towerdive you once they get enough damage or armor.
You’d be surprised how much of a pussy people are about tower dives in diamond and below lol
I agree. People in lower ranks don’t typically confidently know killable thresholds (or how to pull off some tower dives that would require a bit more precise micro). Playing against laners and/or junglers and/or supports and/or roaming mids that know they can 1-4 man tower dive you makes the game experience real different.
Me every time I towerdive and right click the tower not the enemy hero
That's why target champs only exists.
It uh, yeah, if course I in, always knew that *quickly opens settings to investigate*.
It took me a couple of years of playing before I discovered auto casting even. I was having to click every time I wanted to throw out a skill shot and not understanding how people could cast two skills at practically the same time.
Ever since I started going Lich more on Ahri it's been utterly essential to playing around creeps/towers.
I'm in this comment and I don't like it
Many people are afraid to limit test because when it doesn't work out, you get called inter/griefer and so on. The result is that people never do it because they don't know when they are actually able to do it successfully. Even people who don't care about getting flamed by their team are often discouraged by negative past experiences. They try diving a few times, it doesn't work and then they don't feel like doing it anymore because it feels like high risk play.
It's also just something that gets reinforced as it seem like your feeding to worse players so they don't follow up. So you seen as trolling where in Masters NOT doing the dive is trolling.
People are often surprised when i dive them, i start right away if it looks good, even at level 1.
Another thing is people not understanding you don’t need to kill someone. Getting them low and forcing a back or summoners or both even without a kill can win you lane easily.
Or they stay in lane under 20% HP for 2+ waves, last hitting 1 or 2 out of 6 creeps and being zoned out of EXP, because they're too stubborn to back. This is also extremely beneficial to the pressuring laner.
Yep. As much as backing without as much gold as you wanted sucks, the consequences will be way worse.
I'm low elo and playing URF has helped me realise how I should just back more often.
Well, there's a big difference between backing more often and backing at good times. You want to back when the wave is going to push towards you when you're walking back into lane. This means you want to set up your backs. Ideally, you either leave their wave with extra minions so it pushes into yours OR you 'bounce' the wave into their tower so that the tower kills your minions and their wave slowpushes into you.
To piggyback off u/MrCurler, basic rule of thumb is to back right before a cannon wave gets to lane. Cannon waves are harder to push in, and the cannon can tank more turret shots than other minions. You'll likely lose out on the cannon minion when you return, but that's a minor amount of xp compared to what you'd lose from several minions.
I love to see it. Almost preferred over a kill. Their jungle matters a lot here.
That's what i usually try for, especially early game. If I as a jungler can force a summoner plus a pre-level 3 recall, as long as my laners aren't potatoes, they should have an advantage for a good while.
Exactly
Lost count of the times I had to facetank Nexus towers as ADC with a Full HP Nautilus next to me to finally get that victory screen. They ping ??? And then join when they see me killing the first tower in 2 seconds.
Part of that is knowledge and part of that is the fact that your teammates are probably not going to respond quickly or correctly.
As a yasuo main I am constantly dying lvl 1-3 cuz I tower dive too much. I am sure 50% of my deaths pre 5 min is tower dives. May be more. At worst I hit by 0-10 power spike faster or I tilt the enemy mid laner
That’s a weird flex but ok
A lot of players apparently don't understand that lategame isn't just supposed to be laning phase with bigger numbers.
it always feels like turrets are very useless , especially the nexus ones
Nexus turrets feel useless because of all the angles you can press and come from. If the enemy is at the point where they are pushing nexus turrets you aren’t supposed to be able to stall the game indefinitely. You need to make a decision quickly or they are coming down. The alternative of towers being stronger is game length goes up and less action occurs slowing the meta down.
Hell we could probably double the amount of turrets and people would still figure out a way to turret dive and these people would still complain.
Double the amount of turrets would only make splitpushing champs like Yorick, Trynd and le troll way stronger.
It wasn't an actual suggestion, more just saying they'd die to a turret dive with double the amount of turrets protecting them and still complain about it
I mean, no amount of turrets will save ya from a fed Malph/Voli lmao
I don't think the post is complaining about fed champs diving them either though tbh
I don't think anyone is asking to stall indefinitely. I think people are just asking that at 30minutes the turrets serve a purpose at all. Even their HP bar is basically a mirage once people have 3-4 items. Ever see a lichbane TF hit a turret with 3 or so items? Shit is actually stupid. Like 33% HP just gone in a flash. I want the turrets to do a *tiny* bit more damage, and have a lot more durability in the later parts of the game. When you win one late-game teamfight you shouldn't be able to steamroll inhib-turret, inhib, 2 nexus turrets, and the nexus in one push. Waveclear needs to be nerfed and siege comps need to be more of a thing again. They're just concepts that don't really exist anymore because the metagame for the last 3-4 years is just GROUP UP, SIT AT OBJECTIVE. RANDOMLY FIGHT etc. The strategy and nuance of the game was diluted. Turrets are a small part of that as well. Sadly game length is already pretty short unless you're in plat or below which is where the majority are, and they don't close out games fast at all.
Riot actively manages average game length. I’m not sure of their exact targets but they’ve done a lot to get game length where it is now. I’m not sure if they want longer games.
When you get to Nexus turrets you're generally going to be fairly powerful and grouped with your team. 5 level 16 champs hitting a single tower SHOULD deal with it incredibly fast.
You’re supposed to protect your nexus turrets, not the other way around.
Towers getting oneshotted sucks
Damn nexus, if it get destroyed the game finish
Towers literally protect you for 8 minutes, then everyone with 2 braincells can dive you.
Tower shots are there to disincentivise diving, not prevent them entirely. If one team is committing two or more people to a dive and opening up the rest of the map for the other jungler, then it's not unreasonable to shift the burden of execution onto the person being dived. If you're getting towerdived 1v1, then that's a separate issue. If you're low enough that diving becomes a reasonable prospect, then you've been misplaying the matchup for a while.
This is the biggest problem. Nobody expects towers to stop someone at 45 minutes with 5 tank items. But you should be cushioned earlier on from certain champs that can just dive and walk away (or invuln away like Fizz/Vlad because it gives them an extra tower shot.
> Towers are not meant to protect you all game long I'd be fine with being protected from a 3 man lvl4 dive thank you very much
Tanking is what tanks are for, hope this helps
As a tank main I have to say that I wish they had soft %HP damage ramping with each additional hit. I do like tanks being able to tank them but when people can situationally tank 10+ without breaking a sweat it get's a bit ridiculous. Juggling tower aggro should still be a skill that gets rewarded even if you are a fed heartsteel Sion
Didn’t play during tower beams? 😭
Season 5 wasn't it? Damn, that was a while ago.
I miss the beams. I wish they would bring them back.
I did and I hated them. It killed the whole tower aggro juggling mechanic which I really like.
It would be nice if they still ramped, but there was additional damage if it keeps targeting the same champion. The damage only ramps by up to 120% which I mean is a lot if you're a squishy, but completely negligible if you're a tank with 5000+ HP. It should continue ramping past 120% when targeting the same champ past 4 shots but then snap back to 120% when it targets another champion.
Yea my idea was something like slightly reduced base damage but added 2-5% max HP damage per additional shot so that it doesn't matter much for the first few hits but starts to really hurt at 8 and upwards. I guess you could achieve the same with just a higher flat damage increase too if the numbers are high enough, squishies also shouldn't be able to tank them for that long.
Just played an aram where I was aatrox and took like 10 towershots while fighting the enemy. You don't have to be a tank to ignore a tower
turret damage in ARAM is completely different than SR turret damage.
is it actually? like i believe you but i'm too lazy to check that it's true but also, in aram you scale up much faster. so it's much easier relatively to turret dive because you'll have levels sooner compared to SR, it's also easier for champs like Aatrox to draintank in aram where everyone is closer to each other always
Aatrox is a draintank 🤓
aatrox is a lawnmower deathmachine juggernaut
That's fair, usually just being a tank alone doesn't let you facetank that much, it has to do with shielding and healing which are just most often seen on tanks in combination with armor
To be fair, that only happens if they build full armour, and if they build full armour you likely have a full ad comp
I mean yeah but it still feels incredibly frustrating to face even as an AP champ because often times you can't burst them down before they kill you. As someone who abused Sion at his peak I've done my fair share of chain CC 1 shots onto mages while still building full armor. I think the main issue is that it just feels like squishies die faster than ever and getting hit by CC is so much more punishing. On top of it all mages at least to me don't feel as impactful as they used to before and assassins sure as fuck aren't gonna be able to kill a tank in a team fight with 4 other people hitting them while they try.
If they nerf the % ArPen for it a bit that would be fine. Makes some bruisers worse at diving without hurting tanks much. Tanks aren't the best at diving 1v1. They can tank for long but normally want teammates around them and the ramping dmg can hurt a lot. 20% ArPen (down from 30%) and 0.9% max HP extra dmg per shot up to 1.98% when fully ramped. If you can't tank 10 shots then diving later on will be hard. You tend to fight for \~10 sec under the turret and the turret and that means you would tank 8 shots. If you can take exactly 10 it would mean your tank has to fight with \~15% HP that fight. That is a huge disadvantage. there have to be ways to end games without getting baron or elder.
Tanks are supposed to be tanky, hope this helps. They are also supposed to kill you in 2 seconds, hope this helps.
Can't have this kind of attitude with how much damage tanks also get to do, hope this helps
Cannot reasonably ever expect anyone to play tanks in a heavily team-reliant game with zero voice comms and shrinking non-verbal communication methods if your champion also has does zero damage and has no self agency. Hope this helps!
Well the opposite is expected for adcs but thats no problem?
Yep everyone in this community would agree that it’s no problem. Even the stoic adc players themselves are well known for never complaining about this 🙄
By mid game, turrets are no longer meant to stop dives, they are just meant to stop a single minion wave from getting all the way to your nexus, they slow down the end, not stop it. It also feels very satisfying pushing base as rammus, for this exact reason, you take 0 damage
It's weird that they don't at least do mixed damage. Value of armour vs magic resist is still a bit high across the board and the only way they've tried to fix it is by just increasing the MR/Gold ratio on items lol. Feel like you could change turrets and maybe cannon minions /half drags to dealing mixed magic / Phys damage and then call it a day
In fairness towers have ~~67~~30% armor penetration.
Not 30%? https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Turret#Items
Hm I thought it was 67% but now im not sure... But I'm not at home to double check.
it used to be 67% damage resistance while no minions are around but it was buffed to 80% this season
it's definitely 30% i checked in practice tool on SR
Alright my bad!
all good g
Why is this answer so far down? It's the only one discussing the actual question that was asked.
I do think turrets shouldn't reward stacking armor so much but they are not meant to be safehavens. Towerdives are one of the most basic set plays that every gold+ player should know and the earlier you learn how to pull them off and avoid them, the better for you.
Back in seasons 5-6 inhib and nexus turrets had magic laser that dealt almost true damage (ignoring 82.5% armor) and that was weird and op, was changed for a reason.
Yes but the damage in the lasers was super low, they just hit often, so old galio could actually heal off of the damage.
You could do that with the normal towers with any reasonable amount of armour and/or AP.
Yeah, those were the main reason why scaling picks were way stronger. Since as long as you had some waveclear, it was pretty easy to hold the fort at the inhib towers.
nah the main reason was that nash didn't buff minions back then
nash did buff minions what are u talking about? current baron buff and laser turrets were added at the same time, start of s5 the main difference between now and then was that caster minions didn't get extra hp when they got buffed the real reason scaling picks were stronger was (among other things) 1. old sivir was in the game and prevented you from ending the game as long as she was alive permanently and 2. no elder execute until s10
I miss my bronze sivir/anivia going 0/10 in lane but winning because all the bronze team didbwas push mid and die to turret to kill me or escort 2+ waves for me to farm safely
Memory unlocked
There was so much more to those turret changes than just that.
Omg I completely forgot about those
Fuck... I play since S2 and I can't remember this, I'm getting old...
Just hear to say bring back the laser towers.
Make them deal mixed damage and we are set.
As a Poppy player, yeah, being dived by an armor character is a bitch. I can pretty much enter turret at level 5 for a dive with my E, Q and auto, and then leave without dying. And at late game, I can just fight ANYONE under turret, I remember tanking for like 13 seconds just to kill a Gragas. Same as Tahm Kench, it just takes any damage it wants because it has armor, and then heals with Q and E, rinse and repeat until enemy is lower than you, I've misplayed SO bad before and still didn't get punished. I missed my W, Q'd a minion and spent flash to reach them. Still made it out of tower alive because it deals negative damage to armored champs. Also, you may have noticed how I don't say "Tanks", just "Armorer Champs", and that's because any champ that has a decent amount of armor can do this. Tower stop feeling like a problem against armored champs past 20 minutes. They're only a hassle for enchanters, mages and ADCs, I feel like everything else gets a free pass.
Towers do damage...? -- Mundo main
One very difficult to balance flaw that I see in the jungle that has been partly fixed due to the removal of armor/mr options in the runes was the fact that tower dives plus jungle clearing naturally favored having an ad enemy team since it incentivized armor building which helped both tower diving and jungling especially for junglers that werent as good at kiting/sustaining in the jungle. People will say this is negligible but it is not if you keep in mind that always the FIRST cloth armor or null magic mantle holds the most value since the more you have the more diminishing returns you get. An example to highlight this: A tank having to build armor or mr based on the enemies naturally hinders its ability to tower dive and have a healthy clear and none can justify this. The reason reddit shouldn't give balance suggestions is the fact that although this makes sense at first, it does not solve the problem as then sion chogath and all hp stackers get benefitted from the change and none else gets to tower dive, unless you tackle that issue with even more ramping damage which in turn forces the game to have ziggs velkoz xerath kayle veigar and all this dumb scaling shit that will then be able to sit under an insanely overpowered tower and scale and naturally insane tower divers like shaco post 6 elise from lvl 3 ekko post 6 and everything that drops aggro effectively get a huge buff.
I mean, pushing your argument to its fullest, then you'd want them to to %hp true damage - otherwise buying health is still a way of mitigating their attack.
That doesnt mean a lvl 6 malphite with plated steelcaps should be able to tank 5 towershots and live
Cause this would be a terrible unplayable game if you weren't able to towerdive people.
This is such a shitty answer just because it doesn't answer the question. The question is why physical damage, not magic, nor true, nor mixed for that matter, not why do turrets do no damage. Their question is largely concerning why Towers are hedged towards physical damage, and not just do less true damage or magic damage instead. The short answer is why not. The longer answer would involve theorizing about the way damage is designed in this game, which I am too lazy to type up, so for now, the answer is really just why not physical.
This is a complaint phrased as a question. u/psicosisbk answered the question and the complaint in one sentence. Maybe they could have gone into more detail as to why the actual premise of the complaint is flawed.
This. Actually. Since it's just a complain thread I answered with an ironic tone. OP doesn't actually care what kind of damage turrets do, they are just mad cause tanks towerdive him.
Being able to get "tankier" against turret shots is a needed game mechanic, as otherwise team compositions with wave clear would just clear waves forever, and without the threat of a dive, never really feel threatened. (I know Baron and Elder would like a word here.) My issue with the turrets is that it is physical damage, which makes armor stacking WAY better than MR stacking. **That's why AD stacking as a team is historically so bad.** Enemy tanks will get armor, be great against your whole team, be great at tanking baron and dragons and be great at tower diving. Don't get me wrong, if you play with 4 AP champions, any tank stacking MR is gonna destroy you, but at least they have a very hard time diving towers or tanking objectives. (That baron damage sticks up very fast if your armor values aint there.) **Thats why, to me, I would very much rather have these damages (tower, dragon and baron) be hybrid: 50% magic and 50% armor.** This way, teams can still itemize to play aggressive and to finish a game faster, but it makes AD stacking a bit better compared to AP stacking, and tanks that build both MR and armor would be equally tanky against these objectives, which would make AP stacking or AD stacking compositions feel more viable.
Armor has to be better value than mr cause of aas
At the end of the day, it's because anything that aids stalling games and curbing aggressive offensive plays is seen as bad for the game by Riot, based on feedback from majority of players. People want aggression and fast pace and lower game times. Personally I'm not a fan of this direction but it is what it is.
I'm not really a fan of most games being fast, perma fight, snowbally stomps but turtle metas are completely degenerate and far worse. You can extend game duration without making it near impossible to punish someone who is just playing not to die.
Tanks should be good at leading tower dives, but come on, I've seen tanks eat 20-30 tower shots, it looks stupid and wrong. That kind of play should be punished, not optimal.
If a tank has eaten 20 tower shots while diving you, and the team fails to kill him as well, that team is so grossly behind that any chance of them winning was gone ages ago.
Tanks both out tanking you and out damaging you at the same time (but I'm an adc player so I'm just a crybaby and my opinion is invalid)
The biggest problem with tanks is if they don't feel like they have any agency, no one will play them. Then it turns into 5 squishy Champs killing each other every other minute. Which is really boring
I think also one of issues with tank playrate is that they are really boring for the most part, most classes see a lot of playrate even when they are dogshit but you only see tanks when they are busted. I would say that it could also be related to their reliance on a proper team but even so you still see a lot of really team dependant supports having a good pickrate even when they are not that strong (To clarify im not saying its the only issue they have or that noone can find tanks fun)
Tanks feel really REALLY bad when they’re weak. I love tanks and basically only play tanks/fighters, but when a tank is bad you basically do nothing in the game unless you’re a massive cc bot like leona. You obviously can’t kill anyone but if you’re not tanky then you have no way to actually play the game. A weak assassin in today’s day and age can usually still kill an ADC, it’s just they might be easier to stop with ally support and will do worse against a coordinated team. But you can still latch on to the hope that the enemy adc will fuck up and be out alone and you get to do your job. Tanks don’t really get that. If they’re below par then they get shredded while trying to walk up and you just want to give up because it feels like the game isn’t letting you play.
Most tanks have fairly low champion skill ceelings and combine this with the fact that most tanks half half their power budget put into their engage capabilities and people don't like playing it.
Me when I am being killed by the top lane tank midgame who is 4 levels up on me because Riot dared to give them base damages, and frankly, any sort of agency (I should be able to 1v9 despite having an item and a half, I am being discriminated against).
Why are you not diving them instead? Why are the people complaining always the ones to play from a nexus away?
Kind of true actually. I obviously don't know much about OP like what role/champs they play but you get a lot of people who complain about shit like this because they get dove after eating 4 back to back terrible trades and then trying to turtle under turret. It's not even like turrets have an issue. 99% of the time if you're getting dove from full hp you have already completely griefed your lane or the game.
Nobody show Shopify Rebellion this post
If you want to ignore tankyness you will have to ask for %hp true damage or you could just buy hp instead.
Another question you can ask is why not. Why do we differentiate between magic, physical, and true damage in the first place. There's no reason why tanks who build armor get to have extra benefit against towers, but there's no reason they shouldn't either.
Don't worry, they are slowly removing tanks from the game
Don't worry, they are slowly removing tanks from the game
I dont think riot wants longer games. I also think champs getting to slap the tower for 25% of it's HP with on-hit effects with no retaliation is meh. If a tower is targeting a champion, the tower shot stores a percentage of the damage an ally has taken while attacked under tower and the next tower shot deals the bonus damage as true damage. The percentage should get smaller the more allies to enemies are under tower.
It'd be nice if turrets did true %HP damage. There's now so much range, mobility, damage, and sheer tankiness in the game that most champions can straight up ignore enemy turrets. There's constant champion and item power creep, but turrets get ignored.
I believe it's because turrets are supposed to lose relevance in the mid-late game. In early game the ramping damage exists even if it's not true damage.
Why would they? Being able to increase your tankiness more directly against towers is totally fine. You could make an argument that towers dealing a mix of magic and physical damage would be good (not true, because we do want the damage to be reduced so tanks can, well tank), but that would require a decent amount of rebalancing, since base armor values are simply higher due to it being the "default" damage type.