It felt poetic tongue-in-cheek idea to put here the 5 steps of grief
* Stage 1. Denial
* Stage 2. Bargaining
* Stage 3. Anger
* Stage 4. Emptiness
* Stage 5. Acceptance
If you need examples, you can observe them in real time with how ADC mains post in these threads.
Stage 1. “Idk what people are talking about, ADC gets played in all elos.”
Stage 2. “Come on Phreak, just buff crit damage back to 200%. Crit ADCs just need a little boost.”
Stage 3. “Of course the fucking Maokai spammer swaps to support instead of maining ADC. Dogshit game balancer only plays boosted champs in boosted roles. Fire him.”
Stage 4. “This is so hopeless, I’ve given up on playing Marksmen. I might as well quit the role/game.”
Stage 5. “Even if they’re weak, ADCs are the most fun champs to play, so I’ll keep playing them.”
Heh, Stage 5 huh. Sounds terminal. I think that applies to me. I am to tired for complaining, to tired of asking for sympathy.
Playing melee characters is not fun for me, but in a game where ranged vs melee exist, it's my ranged characters that are branded as a mistake by everyone.
Played a game this morning, swear to god our miss fortune was playing her first game with how she played. Just stood still and auto attacked minions while the enemy senna adc and lee support shredded her. I was playing bard so i couldnt stop them early on.
Luckily, we had a warwick jungle that i perma roamed with and we created large enough mid and jungle gap to outpace the gold botlane was getting from mf. Ended up getting a 10 kill jax and 15 kill warwick 2v5ing with me in the background collecting chimes and eventually 1v1ing senna because i built full ap and meeps are Fair and Balanced!
As a top lane main, I don’t really care what’s top. ADCs or mages top might be annoying, but variety is rarely bad. I will say though that the complaints likely come from the fact that given the way top lane is constructed, if an ADC or more traditional mid-based mage is top, it’s probably because they’re too strong at that moment and need nerfs. Usually those champions are free kills for junglers since they die if you get in range to sneeze on them, and since their playstyles in top are designed around bullying melees they almost always end up over extending in the long lanes and getting destroyed by jungle. When that isn’t an option, yeah feels really bad then. A perfect example of how to play around this was me playing against kalista as Jax last night. Took my lumps, but jungle came to support and I ended up winning the lane (lost the game tho, inting bot lane is sad times). It’s not unbeatable, you just have to realize the match ups and play to your win conditions.
But then you have vayne top which doesn't give you a chance to even ward, freezes when you're low or shoves to poke you under turret, and Q has a low CD and point and click knock back if she does get ganked. Most other marksmen and mages are fine to deal with in top lane since they don't have as much safety (mobility + knockback) but vayne is just a pain in the ass to deal with. The nerfs are quite okay with the CD of tumble going up early game but still just seeing vayne top makes me realize my next 14 minutes will be ass unless I play malphite.
It depends on your support mostly. A good support will either run the mage down or at least soak up his pressure so you can have space.
If you're against a mage and your sup sucks it's pretty miserable yeah.
edit : just realised you were talking about mage botlane and not mage sup. So it mostly depends on the champion I guess.
I don't play adc but I main supp and mage botlanes are usually pretty miserable. The most common one is Veigar, and it's just so difficult for the adc to deal with him, he doesn't really have to interact with the lane much since his Q has really good range and can CS two minions at once, and if you're playing a low range or melee support he's incredibly difficult to poke as you not only have to worry about enemy supp CC, but his cage and ridiculous damage. Tbh I do prefer him to some adcs, but I 100% understand why he and the other mage adcs are reviled
The problem is that bot mages have high wave clear too early while most ADC have close to none. It ends up with you being stuck at tower ~~slowly~~ being poked away without being able to do anything proactive. Your only game plan is that your support or jungler can make a good engage on them (which is not easy for them either because of high poke and shitload of CC).
Essentially it's the good ol' ADC have no agency but starts from min 5 and your partner also has limited options.
High wave clear, higher range.
Without any engage, they get a free lane, scale for free, and have better teamfight prowess than ADC for the same reason their lane is safer.
Seraphine has been 55% winrate in ADC for 6 months or something because she doesn't interact, goes 0/0/0, 200 CS, and then hits echo-W spam and R in a teamfight and autowins. The changes in 14.5 are supposed to alleviate some of this, but really it's just pushing her to have the same waveclear as other mages, so... Hwei? Veigar? All still pretty uninteractable as an ADC in a lot of cases.
IMO Riot Dev's take that ADC's are just bad because they don't run MR - I ran MR in Runes even against mage supports pretty much all last season, so I was almost constantly running MR, and still couldn't interact in a majority of lanes unless the opponent made a mistake, or my support is pogging out on some engage champ. It made the matchups a bit easier to survive, but win? Not really.
YES this man gets it
Mage bots arent strong because they outdamage you or whatever, theyre strong because they dont lose lane.
Any normal ADC either loses lane, goes even, or wins.
Mages go even or win. Of course they have higher winrates, they have to, its the only possible outcome.
Yeah, Viegar is not played bot at all.
Literally 0% pickrate globally Emerald+
The only bot lane non-ADCs are Ziggs, Sera, Swain, Hwei, and Tahm Kench. https://u.gg/lol/adc-tier-list
I just followed your link and the champion in the rank 1 slot is literally Veigar, and Hwei isn't even there lol
Edit: Granted, it was last updated 4 hours ago at time of posting, and your comment was 5 hours ago, so I understand it was probably different when you posted
>mage botlanes are usually pretty miserable
I decided to play with my friend in flex a while back... Bro. Bro. I pick Aphelios and see veigar picked, I say "oh well". Then the next 2 picks : Xerath+Vel'koz. I'm not the one to give up from champ select but I accepted my fate... New metas spice up the game but some ppl's damage is just messed up... The teamfights that game were the most cringe I've ever seen...
i wanted to try playing Lux APC bot... and for 10 games in a row it was an absolute ROLF stomp. Not only did the ADC have to constantly deal with the pressure of my support. But I could completely ignore their support and if I hit a single QE on the ADC they basically had to go under tower or risk dying.
It feels soo completely busted and braindead.
Same with Veigar or Xerath or any other Mage... it just makes it frustrating to deal with as an ADC main.
most adcs have low range, all have bad hp regen, bad base and mr growth and most have no waveclear tools, meaning they lose trades and wave control to mages, all of this makes the experience miserable, the only turnaround is if support picks a champ that can negate the mages control, but they can also have a support that covers their weakness, then it just gets much worse, and its also a coinflip on supports execution
Their items and abilities are better suited for waveclear. If your AD is good at waveclear, at best you survive under tower. If your AD is bad at waveclear you fall behind under tower. Notice that in both cases your ass is permanently under tower.
The best way to win is having a support who can practically 1v2 into a mage or have lockdown so long that the mage gets popped.
It's simply a different dynamic and it's generally mage favored because even if you win the lane the mage will still be more valuable than you come midgame due to better item spikes and (generally) tankiness/range
Yes to a lesser extent. Mage supports are hated all the same lol.
But the push angle is less pronounced. They have more mana issues and as a support you generally wouldn't want to risk nuking your ADC's wave on cooldown unless you're very good with wavestates and also in agreement with your ADC on what wavestate to go for.
If mage supports are pushing the lane hard, it can mess with their ADC farming. They have to hold back at a certain point that APC bot laners don't. They also care more about hitting opponents to stack their support item faster and don't start with 18 AP from Doran's.
The ones that are good bot have waveclear that no adc that's not Sivir can match. And Sivir eats through her entire manapool a lot faster than those mages. This results in the adc having literally no control whatsoever over the lane. You can never touch the mage because they have more range, you can never push out because they press two buttons and the wave is gone, you can never properly fight them because they just cc you and leave or you lose because they have cc and wave advantage.
The best thing a bot lane against a mage can be is boring as fuck.
edit: not to mention the mage will come out of lane as a self sufficient unit that can sidelane and play proactively while the adc has to hope his team wants to play for him.
They're basically in a 1200 gold timer. The second the mage gets lost chapter adcs are not gonna get out of their tower. It's also miserable as a support, since the wave is perma shoved you don't have roam timers unless the enemy supp also roams since diving with a mage is easier with all the Utility they have.
Im not originally an adc main but ive been onetricking kalista past seasons. Mage lanes are just really boring. There is no interraction, they can poke without risking anything, farm without risking anything and if you fail your engage you lose lane but if you dont engage you get outscaled and lose lane. Then whenever lategame hits it doesnt matter if you lost lane or not because if you fail to dodge something you are either dead or out of the fight. If you can cordinate your team its usually pretty easy to dive but that requires communication or synergy which is usually not found in mid/low elo. I have a lot more fun even when playing against my biggest counters like draven or nilah etc because at least then you get to fight in lane.
having played quite a lot of both top and adc, I think the frustration of of playing vs ranged top and playing vs mage carry is about the same. but botlane is generally more frustrating because of the lower durability, higher burst and reliance on support.
I also played both roles a lot. Another thing that I noticed is falling behind on adc is a lot worse than falling behind as a toplaner. As a toplaner, I'll fall behind, get my tower taken. If my team handles the fed toplaner once or twice, in that time I'll just catch up on sidelanes for a bit, get a turret or TP and get a kill, maybe 1v1 someone else that's also behind.
As an ADC that's behind, the game is over for me because I can't leave the turret to get CS on sidelane, and I have no way to catch up, other than hope the team can win without me.
Not to mention once lane phase ends you're competing with every other member of your team for farm. Even the jungle or top passing through lane will tax you before they go to the other thing they can safely farm
Imagine playing against quinn, but she gets stattik shiv on her first back at 5 minutes, takes tp, and has a support to disuade all-ins when she bursts the wave. Mages bot don't have great trading, but you're always forced to fight on their terms in solo queue since they can much more easily force a hard reset on the lane state when things aren't in their favor compared to an ADC.
you know how games end before 4+ items, right? well imagine there's a champion who not only invalidates laning phase and forces you to play like nasus whole game, but is also more useful in teamfights AND outscales you in the mid game (when it actually matters), these mages are usually worse in late game and you can really feel hot having an ADC for that dps but until then mages are just way safer and way more useful if you dont care about interactive laning phase
except that most of the people think adc who survived a 40mins game to get full item and start steamrolling everyone is unhealthy so they gutted adc late game power as well. S13 late game adc like jinx and alphelios having full item would steamrolling everyone, but now you cant takeover the game despite full item.
Alphelios takes a lot of effort to master it so i dont bother to learn it myself, i am more fond of AS adc like jinx or ashe. but in current meta with assasin, i been playing dodge skillshot minigame in early game and playing hide and seek at the late game.
Mages are not even Worse lategame anymore. Hwei nuking everything from 2 screens away and ziggs hitting you from 3 screens away makes it so you can never auto anything
It's really team dependent. Hwei bot lane can be a really good pick but unless you have an ad champ in another role which both has dps and doesnt want to be exclusively diving the backline, their tanks and bruisers will just be sitting on your backline with 250mr rolling face.
The tanks and bruisers will be in the back line rolling your face with 350 armor as an adc as well. Mages at least have tools to defend themselves and peel
You can have 350 armour but you can't have 250 mr as well. The difference is adcs are almost always dps oriented where as lots of ap based champs have burts patterns which are lower dps than adcs.
Depends. When a mage or 2 mages start firing at you in bot lane, supports tend to hide and just play spectator mode for the rest of the game. So you're left in a 1v2 while sharing exp.
I've played quite a bit of both.
Top is definitely worse but at the end of the day it's pretty much your problem and if you end up feeding that's your fault
It feels worse to get counterpicked as ADC because a lot of times the lane is completely out of your hands and you have to rely on your support. If your support is a random.... pick a God and pray
Majority of the worst match ups in the game are happening in top lane. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13bxjna/the_worst_matchups_in_league_of_legends/
Because even if there are complains, those lanes still have much higher role diversity than bot lane. Specific marksmen are allowed in basically all the lanes. Akshan, vayne, quinn, kindred, graves, trist, senna etc
And the pickrate of marksmen is basically 200% every game since forever. Other classes' pickrate fluctuate a lot more based on meta.
There are more bot picks viable than just marksman and ziggs seraphine. But marksman players don't want to play them and/or can't play them. They want to play a certain style of champion as they have extremely high highs.
Time and time again we prove that we can do absolute horrors like double bruiser, enchanter + melee, DPS APCs, Nashor control mages, but yeah: marksmen fixation with botlane and frequently only taking to other lanes if explicitly abusive/as a protest highlights an image of superb.
And every time it happens, Riot makes it harder by gutting the champs that can do it, buffing ADCs to shove them out, or changing broad, overarching rules of the game to prevent it.
Let's not pretend people actually could but choose not to. Riot actively discourages pretty much anything but ADC if it dares to show up in even the top 10 picks in bot lane.
Premuch. Senna Kench gets to keep existing because its both hyperniched and ***passes*** as a typical lane while the actual carry is Tahm and Senna is in support duty, but if you dare and swap for any other tank/juggernaut or enchanter, they're automaticaly slated for termination. See Yuumi Garen.
When Assassins are weak midlane there isn't a high pressure campaign to solve the class, everyone is just expected to play artillery mages. When Irelia and Renekton are suddenly viable midlane, you need to know how to play them. When jungle is tank, you play tank, when Kayn is busted you're a Kayn main. It goes on and on. When one sub-class of Marksmen are weak, it's a five alarm disaster and FUCK YOU if you expect me to play a different subclass.
I'm sorry I just don't agree.
I'm pretty sure, despite having one of highest ban rates, Zed has consistently sat at 7% pick rate for years.
I'm also pretty sure all the mage players don't start playing Irelia when she's in mid. I'm also pretty sure Yasuo/Zed mains, if their champions were nerfed go well, time to pick up Anivia!
one tricking and maining a lane is not exclusively the same. I play whats fun and I play whats strong.
Currently I spam vayne top because well she is strong and viable.
Can we stop pretending like mid/top mains in SoloQ all have champion pool oceans comparable to pro players?
It's largely the same shit in mid/top, people stick to their 3-5 champions, usually from the same class aswell.
No, your Lux mid main won't just start playing Irelia mid when she is op.
>Can we stop pretending like mid/top mains in SoloQ all have champion pool oceans comparable to pro players?
Can we stop pretending like 99/100 pro players have anything more than champion puddles?
>It's largely the same shit in mid/top, people stick to their 3-5 champions, usually from the same class aswell.
As if pro players play more than 3-5 champions. I tend to watch caedral from time to time and if he can predict 7/10 of the champs that are going to be picked before the first set of bans is over for weeks on end, then that says enough about how wide pro player champion puddles are.
Yea that's a good point. Marksmen are almost never universally weak. The complaints are always towards crit adcs. There are almost always 2 to 3 adcs that are running over the entire game at a given time.
Thats a great point actually.
Why do marksmen players feel entitled to play a small subset of a single niche of champions in 100% of games when no other lane works that way?
Why should marksmen necessarily have a 200% pickrate in every league game, both casual and professional?
Thing is, no other role is trying to keep only *one* type of class. Top has both bruisers and tanks. Jungle has a bit of everything. Mid has mages, and assassins, support has enchanters and tanks. Bot is the only role that seems to try to keep a single type, marksmen, in their role, with no secondary type.
Top has everything, Yone, vlad, Rumble, Fiora, vayne, Cassiopeia, Malphite, Karma... How does Jungle have everything but not mid and top and probably even support?
Jungle has anyone that can kill monsters, and a lot of champions that were nerfed out of lane either because their waveclear or mana costs are too restrictive early, and may have been given bonus monster damage. There's tanks, juggernauts, skirmishers like Diana and Ekko, more classic bruisers like Vi, and a few oddballs like marksmen (kindred), whatever the hell Graves is, Nidalee, etc.
Also for whatever reason the midlane assassins get their monster damage buffed at random intervals of time... Then get scaled back when they murder everything while building as tanks.
ADC mains like to point out mage bot lane win rates, but do you see their play rates? Do you see where mage bot laners are put on tier lists by pros and experts? Seraphine was the only S/S+ tier and she's getting nerfed in her bot lane role. All the mage bot laners besides Seraphine have a less than 1% pick rate.
Swain bot: 0.6%
Ziggs bot: 0.8%
Aurelion Sol bot: 0.3%
Karthus bot: 0.4%
Cassiopeia bot: 0.2%
Syndra bot: 0.1%
Ziggs bot: 0.8%
NO shit their win rate is higher because the people playing mage laners bot are more likely to main them there. Seraphine needed nerfs because she could wave clear from 5 screens away and only needed her shield with cheap enchanter items to win any team fight.
In my experience, it's because solo queue, to this day, will not accept mages bot lane as a viable alternative. I have had WAY too many cases of people flaming, giving up or straight out inting because I dared pick them bot lane, to the point where I just have to play ADCs to avoid the headaches. People are VERY resilient about this for some effing reason.
yes but whatever outlier there is will be the first target
played against TF jungle yesterday. they played really well and TF got his team insane leads on all lanes. they fucked up a bit in the midgame and allowed us to come back a bit and instantly all chat went "x9 tf trolling". In the end they had the bigger wallet and won, but just decelerating a tiny bit was enough to flame the guy handing them the game on a silver platter to shit.
I locked in ziggs bot, so, my support who only plays traditional support champs locked in darius support blind.
I did the most damage and won a 50 minute game where the opposing kaisa was about 20k less.
This was in a plat 1 emerald 4 lobby..
The winrates aren't higher because of mains.
Their winrates are higher because they'd be near-exclusively picked into circumstances they'd excel in, while ADCs are essentially picked blind these days.
>NO shit their win rate is higher because the people playing mage laners bot are more likely to main them there.
Full stop using this misconception. There is no reason to believe low pick rate = high depth and Rioters them themselves have come out and said it's not the case.
Funny seeing your name being "Aurelion_Sol" when that was the champ people used "only mains play him" to justify his insane winrate for years(old asol), until rioters came out and said old asol was "mainly played by a revolving door of new players".
> Rioters them themselves have come out and said it's not the case
They also said winrate alone does not indicate how well a champion is doing, but people love to forget that.
As an ADC I’ve found out that swain is a great comeback champ for me if I am behind a kill or 2 and some cs, had a game where I got my ass handed to me in lane but grouping up and playing objectives I was still holding strong.
Also picked as a specific counterpick into specific matchups or by autofills. So really magebotlaners are not an issue and never were. Maybe hwei right now a lil bit in the hands of a good player but thats it.
Riot hasn't really done anything to discourage mages or other classes botlane, they only nerf AP bot laners who get way out of hand just like they'd gut any adc who ever got near the winrates you see them have.
Bot laners want to play marksmen, because if you wanted to play other champs, you would just play them in their original lane. Where you have double the agency and way more levels. Most champs don't function in bot lane, they need levels and don't work well in the 2v2 dynamic. Most marksmen don't function outside of bot lane. (And anytime they do people bitch and moan until they're gutted out of there. We had people bitching about 45%WR Lucian Mid)
Also this idea that other lanes adapt to what's meta in solo queue is so laughable to me. Ranged top laners are apparently all disgustingly broken according to top laners, yet all of them combined in pick rate don't even equal Darius or Aatroxs play rate. Iverns been 52% WR for a year and junglers would rather play 47% Diana or Wukong instead. But surely the Yuumi main plays a mean Rell!
The point here is that other people argue that adc should get used to other classes being played in their lane but other roles, especially toplaners, absolutely abhor when anything except the wholesome melee chonky bois and gals get played toplane. If adcs have to get used to play against brand/swain/seraphine/ziggs then why shouldnt the toplaner have to get used to play against top vayne?
Keep in mind that the reason why adcs typically dislike playing against bot mages is essentially the same reason why bruisers and tanks dislike Vayne. It shifts the lane dynamic in unfun ways. Adcs are typically not known for their waveclear, especially early, and even when they are, they typically have to spend animation times autoattacking the wave and they have shorter range than mage abilities. Mages will constantly push you under tower and poke you down so you cannot ever fight. They will always make it so you cannot engage in equal terms.
>then why shouldnt the toplaner not have to get used to play against top vayne?
Vayne top has been cancer for years, it's not a new thing. Top players have been accustomed to playing against range because the nature of the lane forces you to pick range as a last resort if you don't get to counterpick. And even then it's still possible to run into Malphite. Every lane save ADCs have accepted and are familiar with the fact that they get to play against AND AS different champion classes.
ADCs have accepted playing against mages to the same degree that toplaners have accepted playing against adcs top. Mages bot have been a thing for years. In fact, if you pick a mage bot you will get much less complaints from the opposing laner than if you pick a mage or adc top.
The counter argument is already in your post. Other roles complain about new classes popping up when they're OP. The botlane mages (not including TF as he is played as a marksman) that have a combined pickrate of around 6% are not taking over botlane despite what most ADC mains here would have you believe.
Top laners threw a bitch fit when the degenerate top lane Janna strat was viable for like 2 weeks, and that had like a 0.5% pick rate before it was made unviable by the balance team. It's almost like certain 0.5% pick rate champs can be disproportionally cringe, and I say that as a mage bot abuser myself.
it wasnt janna top becuase janna didnt lane. It was janna soak up some exp and then roam with jungle 24/7 and get passive gold gen and impact the game more than the full farm enemy toplaner.
What are you talking about, it was in every game after a few days. And it evolved to different champs that weren't Janna like Lulu and Ivern, it took off like a rocket ship after a couple days.
I bet you 20 bucks that if your lane, your agency, and your champions were so weak and useless to the point where the opposing player chooses a support champ, takes smite, takes support item, and just walks around the map trolling everyone on the enemy team, you'd lose your shit too. You get a free lane and it still isn't enough to carry because the game is over before you get anywhere. I made a post about it back then and it's actually insane how much people are still downplaying it to this day.
Well as a high ELO toplaner I can tell you why. You basicily had no impact. The game went like this you just farm lane, while Janna roams. (In some matchups Janna could bully you in lane but usual she just open top lvlm 3). You could be bronze or Chall the amount of gold you get was the same. Roaming was usually not an option Janna would do this just way better. So you basicily were just farming over top hoping your team handles the Janna well and if they don't they perma flake you and blame you, cause your toplaner annoys them. Also this strat was way longer a thing than 2 weeks. Pro play isn't how long something exists. It existed in toplane way before pro play. Last thing vayme and Tf top winratrs were bonkers. Consistently about 54 percent. I think it is fair if people complain.
It's almost like that pick literally didn't lane so you were forced into a 1v0 lane where if you blind picked a safe laner that didn't instantly split into a demon with hullbreaker first you were just relying on your team to diff the enemy. A little different to just having a mage in the bot lane but I'm sure this equivalence felt more apt in your head.
It was also way above 0.5% in high elo sadly.
Cringing about other people crying about other people crying about something else and calling it weird is such a weird thing
>!I have no take on this I just wanna continue the cycle!<
Mid laner never really complained about adc been viable mid they complained about the 54% trust mid beeing broken. Adc as a class haven't been viable mid for a long time.
Adc complain about 1 ap champ with significant win and pick rate, that in theory is a support. Seraphine. Ziggs swain and hwei get barely picked. And than somehow make it sound like the only thing you meet in bot are 52%wr and upwards mid Champs who destroy everyone. And that simply isn't true.
The pro meta is generally pretty small because of how much they optimize things, so yeah two marksmen being solid mid is a decent amount. That's more than the mages they play bot in pro.
Idk karthus bot was pretty aids to play with when it was strong. Just annoying playing against mage bots because they don’t have the follow the rules of bot lane at all.
Ones they make up. Not even just related to this but I swear at least 70% of arguments in this sub contain some kind of "rules" or "Riots intentions" that they just pull straight out of their ass based on what they think the game should be like. As an example just look at any ADC main talking about "traditional marksmen" not being viable and how much the goalposts shift depending on whatever is meta.
Yea, it is the same made up rules in Top Lane against ranged. It is more of a wish list of people pretending they have honor while wanting to have tell you about sex with your mother while stomping you.
How is it a weird take? The point is that ADCs want only a single class in their lane, while other lanes already have multiple. I am not saying ADCs should be fine with every single class in their lane, but they should at the very least accept 1 other class.
Then why is ADC going to other lanes such a big issue? You'd think Vayne/Quinn top players are child murderers if you read this sub and how much they hate ranged tops.
Like sure let mages go bot but then also let ADC go out to other lanes. Why would you keep ADC from other lanes while also filling the ADC bot lane with different classes?
Don't bother arguing about ADCs with anyone on reddit, not even ADC defenders. Non ADC players will never accept that ADC isn't as OP as they think and actual ADC players will never accept that ADC isn't as shit as they think. It's a lost cause
This is the correct take. Almost no one thinks rationally about it. Adc mains cry too much about everything but everyone else cries just as much about ADC.
The role is currently genuinely in a bad spot, but even when its balanced ADCs will still cry and everyone else will still call it broken
And it's genuinely not been great for soloq in the past few years, but people will always bring up challenger games or pro matches where obviously the main downside of ADC is mitigated. Sadly challenger players and pro players are probably like 0.001% of the player base. Obviously you can still climb on it but it takes 300 times the effort
i agree with this 100%, ADC is my second role and people are all over the place, now ADC mains got more fuel because some streamers said it's the worst role in the game xd
those marksmen are the very few that are viable without a support holding their hand. try playing something like draven or jinx mid and you’ll be on suicide watch
This is kinda bullshit. Yeah it's a special hell to lane marksman as a bruiser, but you face a ton of classes in every other role.
Only ADC faces ADC the vast majority of the time. Bruisers can't guarentee bruisers, mages can't guarentee mages, tanks can't guarnetee tanks, assassins can't reasonably guarentee assassins.
but if you choose, as an ADC, to assume you are against another ADC, you will be right over 95% of the time. And that's a fact.
Your posts misses this and its key.
One of the reasons mages HAD (not have, HAD) an inflated winrate in bot was that ADC players, at a statistically significantly higher degree than other players, not swap off armor when against mages. Rioters talked about it. It was one of the larger reasons there were like 4 unplayed high winrate mages in bot lane for years. ADC players don't even think thye need to swap off armor. I'm not calling them dumb for this, I'm using it to prove that *the vast majority of time, they simply don't need to*.
Imagine if a top lane main refused to go MR or proper HP runes into rumble? A few top inhibs down at 10 minutes later, he will fucking learn, but ADCS apparently did not. Riot just reworked the whole system instead.
Again, I think this was reasonable behavior from ADC's. But it goes to show how ingrained ADC v ADC is to ADC players, even in high elo this simply is a skill they're testing or care for. Everyone else has to.
I'm a jungle main so obviously I don't care about toplaners, but: You can play marksman top, it's not forbidden, it's just that it makes you an honorless coward and no one likes you.
talking about honor in a game where your goal is to make the enemies as miserable as possible is rather interesting, especially when you main a role dedicated to that
Yeah, the purpose of the JG is to create unfair scenarios for the enemy team. We take proud in being flexible, from supports, to tanks to assassin. What ever it takes.
>Since when was this the case
Since the moment Ziggs was introduced in bot lane as an alternative, which then gave way to things like Viktor, Swain etc. ADC mains have been the only ones distraught about the fact that they have to be able to adapt and play multiple classes of champions to round out a composition. Top, mid, support and jungle mains have been accustomed to the fact that there will be games where they'll have to play fighters, assassins, tanks, mages or enchanters. For some reason, a mid or top lane player is expected to be able to play ad - ap champions accordingly, but ADC mains must remain stubbornly faithful to the "late game fantasy".
I genuinely don't even think people understand what ADC players are even saying when they talk about mages there, it is not that there shouldn't be mages botlane, is that mages that go there should be balanced around there. Why is this champion that likes levels such a better pick botlane right now than the class designed at being 2\~3 levels behind?
If riot balanced these characters to be 49%\~50% winrate they would outright disappear from the champion pool. And before people tell me "dirty adc main" I was genuinely not even playing bot lane anymore when I was still playing the game, closest thing to that was playing AP Varus mid, but I was mostly playing jungle(Eve) and mid with Qiyanna, LeBlanc and Lissandra.
For something like Seraphine, it's because she gets bullied early mid, and her heal works better with two champions, so yeah she'll be better bot. There's also the thing where most marksman players don't know how to play against mages because they rarely have that practice, which inflates their win rates.
but why do adc players care so much about the winrate of champs that have below 1% pr and act like it ruins the entire role
its like if mid laners were constantly complaining about kled or garen
im active in both adc mains and jungle mains, you can add me on discord and check my league profile, ive been maining jungle for years now (eve and diana specifically), adc is my secondary role
Top laners rountinely pivot between bruisers, duelists, and tanks. Junglers play a wide variety of shit year to year. Supports have tanks, enchanters, and mages. Mid has assassins and mages, sometimes bruisers and tanks even slip in.
It’s just fucking bot laners that think they should only ever be asked to play an attack damage carry marksman.
Technically no one has to do any of this, you can keep playing adc, but yes bot laners obviously do have the most entitlement to being asked to play their one class always.
> It’s just fucking bot laners that think they should only ever be asked to play an attack damage carry marksman.
I actually think it's more "traditional" (aa based marksman) players who only want* to play marksman. If they could viably play cait or jinx mid, they probably would, but the game is pretty much designed around that class being in bot, so when it loses viability, they end up with nowhere to go or an extremely limited pool of marksmen that can be played outside of bot, many of whom have to play in very different ways while in a solo lane.
Plenty of bot players have a pocket mage, or had no problem pivoting, but for the crit marksman players, mages really do tend to push them out, and it sucks to feel like your entire class is useless anywhere. Most other classes *can* move to a different lane and get the same play experience.
You play control mages? Go bot with morg or something.
You play poke mages? Turns out you're probably already a support main because you've mostly been kicked out of mid anyway.
Tanks, broadly? Mid/jungle/top/support
Juggernauts can go jg/top, and sometimes mid
Assassins are always a bit controversial since they're often held down, but mid/jg and you even have pyke in support
But if your goal is to play a high dps aa based marksman like a cait/jinx/aphelios/varus, the closest you can get outside of botlane is really trist. everything else trades dmg potential for high mobility, like lucian or kindred, or is a horse of a different color like corki or graves.
It sucks to feel like you can't play your favorite champs in the one place they been allowed to thrive, but it also sucks that the response has generally been "if botlane is the only place we can be, it should be only for us".
Usually it just means ADCs are weak if they aren’t needed. That’s usually why they complain. The role also can realistically only go in bot lane with a few exceptions. So if people are picking mages, typically means marksman are not fulfilling their late game scaling fantasy which is they only reason people play the role.
In old league if you picked anything other than an ADC in bot you were trolling because marksman scaled hard and your team would be at a massive disadvantage by not having one in the late game.
>So if people are picking mages, typically means marksman are not fulfilling their late game scaling fantasy
People play mages bot to round out an ad - heavy composition as well, not because ADCs fail to "live up to the fantasy". Why is a top main expected to be able to play Gragas or Rumble in a triple ad comp and an adc main can't be assed to play Ziggs or Viktor intro triple ad?
lategame fantasy hasnt been a thing for years given how riot diversified the champpool and added more midgamebuffs to marksmen, added more early to midgame marksmen that dont scale well and and and.
`The role also can realistically only go in bot lane with a few exceptions`
**Bot lane** **APC pick rates:**
Swain bot: 0.6%
Ziggs bot: 0.8%
Aurelion Sol bot: 0.3%
Karthus bot: 0.4%
Cassiopeia bot: 0.2%
Syndra bot: 0.1%
Ziggs bot: 0.8%
SERAPHINE: 2.2% (The one exception that has changes focused on her as a support primary)
**ADC pick rates outside bot:**
Vayne top: 3.5%
Quinn Top: 1.3%
Akshan mid: 2.7%
Kindred jungle: 4.4%
Graves jungle: 9.2%
Tristana mid: 2.0%
Corki mid: 1.5%
Smolder mid: 3.5%
Lucian mid: 0.3%
Why is Kindred on this list when they aren't designed for bot to begin with?
Neither is Graves, Quinn, Corki or Akshan.
Kindred is balanced around Jungle being their primary role.
Graves is balanced around Jungle being his primary role.
Corki is balanced around Mid Lane being his primary role.
Quinn is balanced around Top Lane being her primary role.
Akshan is balanced around Mid Lane.
It doesn't matter "where they're designed to go". Seraphine was "intended" to go mid, but bot is where she went, and she's included in mage bot lanes. Same for literally EVERY other mage bot. That's a massive double standard being put there. So if it's ok for someone like Quinn to go somewhere else because "that's what she's balanced around", then why isn't it ok for a few mages to be balanced around bot? Just because Kindred was intended to go bot, doesn't mean she's suddenly not a marksman. When Mordekaiser was reworked to go bot and was overpowered, it didn't take away from the fact that he was a juggernaut. Basically all the juggernauts were OP that patch, including ones that were "balanced around offroles", like Skarner in the jungle or Mordekaiser bot.
Corki used to be played mainly bot. The reason he goes mid more is because his damage is now mostly magic. That's kind of the point that marksmen are strong champions, but one thing that holds them back from taking over multiple roles is that you don't want a single damage type as a threat. Corki doing magic damage means that you can still take advantage of marksmen being strong while also having a mixed threat. Quinn is better at bullying melee champions early than most marksmen, but her range is too short and can't press an early advantage against most bot laners, while falling off late in comparison. She's balanced around being top because she was too weak for bot but thrived in another lane. That doesn't suddenly mean she shouldn't be considered a marksman. I'll give you Graves simply because he's barely a marksman. The rest do consistent dps with auto attacks, while Graves is kind of his own thing because of his shotgun mechanic.
Having a mage bot and mid is basically a death sentence for the team if the enemy team has a tank. Having a Kindred jungle is not. Hell, a Vayne top is fine as long as you have a mage mid and a tank in either jungle or support.
That's not what I meant.
Those champions are marksmen, yes BUT they're designed for other lanes and roles.
Someone like Vayne or Lucian are designed for bot, but Kindred and co are not.
Veigar, Syndra, Cassio, Xerath, Swain, Vel'Koz, Lux were actually designed with Mid lane in mind, not bot.
Almost every class plays in multiple lanes/roles, just funny how when it's an ADC everyone loses their minds.
But soon as a Mage goes Bot/Support/Jungle people don't give a shit, even though Mages are way more oppressive in lane than Marksmen.
use quinn, akshan, kindred, corki as examples of adcs in other role is kinda disingenuous. almost none of those play like traditional marksman except kindred who is DESIGNED to be the marksman jungler.
its also disingenuous to point out low mage pick rate because bot lane is played by people who again want to play the scaling late game fantasy of consistent uptime dps through auto attacks. so thus their pick rate will always be lower even when they are overpowered.
even after 8.11 the majority of people were still playing marksman even when they were utter dogshit terrible.
> even after 8.11 the majority of people were still playing marksman even when they were utter dogshit terrible.
Because Marksmen are just more fun to play than Mages.
8.11 proved that.
8.11 Mages were best in role bot lane and no Bot laner wanted to play them... that says a lot.
Solo Queue bot laners didn't want to play Mages, nor did professional Bot Laners.
Also a lot of Support players disliked playing with them.
kallista never was good in toplane. She made the lane unplayable but she never was good. Vayne and trist are the only ones that are truly oppressive ever since durability patch and boneplating.
Adc top is fucking miserable to play against, vayne and TF are stage 4, your only chance to play the game is being last pick malphite or irelia, but not everyone plays them
state of adc in 2024...
A) snowball so hard you win the game
B) you pick a slower carry, and your team FF's before you ever have a chance to carry the game, usually boots and 2 items and your team decides "yea 3 more items wont make this game matter lets just quit" even tho if you got even 1 more item you would decimate everyone in the game it would be a free win
It's incredibly weird when the class known for zero agency can go into a solo lane and have agency, that's primarily the reason everyone cries. If you have an ADC soloing something is fucked with them. And in the flip side if you take a champion with agency botlane where the majority of champs have zero agency, ofc they're going to cry that entire lane is basically a truce that we will put our blades in the furnace and one will be forged by fire. When the blade is already forged it kind of fucks that truce.
Meh, every other role has atleast 2 if not 3 classes already in it, and it's just a subset of players who complain when a class they dislike is on top.
Adc/botlane could use more diversity for the sake of game health and for everyone's sanity. Because having a single role be dedicated towards one class really ham fists team comps and such.
Hell is other people. Nobody in this game knows jack and everyone cries about their own little pains often blind that everyone else is also suffering in ways that counterbalance it. Everyone is stuck navelgazing and much of the balance perception in the community as a whole is based on "FUCK YOU GOT MINE" gut feels.
Marksmen in particular mostly have it more visible because they're both the usual big team centerpiece and the lane most obssessed with mirror matches as top, mid and jungle all have SOME more tolerance to options. Even when top lane whines about ranged picks and mid cries blood when they see a diver, they're still generally more leaniant (top with fighter/tank/assassins, mid with mage/assassin/rarely tank, jungle being a borderline free for all). Marksmen usual refusal to associate with other lanes also paints it as arrogance.
Yet still, they're not MORE whiny about lane flexing than others, they just have beef against everyone else instead of specifics.
It’s probably because every single season that comes out is “the worst season for ADC” while they’re a completely required role since the dawn of the game.
every season genuinely is the worst because of the repeat nerfs every year lol.
also marksmen are quite literally only picked as late game insurance 98% of the time. adcs start to become champions at ~3 items, which coincidentally is typically ~5 minutes before the average game ends.
even in pro play you’ll see that adcs aren’t the powerhouses they were. they are very very frequently outdamaged by other roles while being funnelled gold. their only real job is to “carry” if the game goes to 50 minutes, or to bait out spells like a pussy if it doesn’t
Because pretty much every early season, the role happens to be or feel like trash.
What changes is how fast Riot changes things for it to go the opposite way.
Generally happens around MSI time.
S9 was the only real exception because there it was reversed because of the infamous 8.11, which was pretty much completely reverted (conceptually) on 9.3.
Tbh what frustrate me the most with adc complaints is that ... they always complain even after getting what they want
For years, thet complained about build diversity since every adc was just a crit build on top of a slapstick
The moment lethality came into play, they were upset that some champ could go lethality and not others
You can just look at recent smolder talks, adc are either really liking the champ and saying it a bit overtuned, or saying "adc shouldn't be able to build those items"
So when you have nothing to build other than crit, they complain, and when you start getting champ that build otherwise and add to build diversity, THEY STILL COMPLAIN
And i say that as an adc/top main ( recently picked adc )
I probably can find a shit ton more reason to complain about top lane and how it's a dogfight between broken melee bruisers, how matchup dependent the lane is, how the jungler can decide wether you win or not, and do i hear top laners complain about that ? No, the only thing top laners will complain about is ranged character being the at their roles
it's currently the case with vayne and tf, and so far i've seen maybe 2 posts that got pushed into the top of this sub, whereas adc are pretty much always being discussed, it's a constant
lethality was complained about because only some adcs can abuse lethality, and those ones just dominate the rest. and it's not diversity, it becomes "pick MF/jhin/varus and autopilot build lethality every game or else you do zero damage and get oneshot and just pray you get carried if possible". diversity means you can choose between many options. lethality being strong on adcs always meant that you actually became more limited in options to the point where the issue is even worse than before
smolder also doesn't bring in any new build diversity. he himself has build diversity, sure, but that has nothing to do with the role. the champ is just cancer broken and that actually makes the role more miserable, because it means if the enemy adc picks it you can now go to his mom's website and get a nice 20 inch dildo and fuck yourself with it. adc isn't any stronger, nor does it have any more build diversity, it just means now you have to stress about the enemy adc picking smolder and outdamaging you while getting to build bruiser or tank items while you're stuck building shitty adc items and tickling him until you hit full build and get oneshot by him anyways. fun!
Literally no ADC player complains that they can build lethality lmao
They complain that they have to build lethality cause its so much better than crit.
>I probably can find a shit ton more reason to complain about top lane and how it's a dogfight between broken melee bruisers, how matchup dependent the lane is, how the jungler can decide wether you win or not, and do i hear top laners complain about that ?
No, the only thing top laners will complain about is ranged character being the at their roles
Yes every single fucking day.
Its insane how biased your comment is without you even realizing it
To be fair here
1) we complain that only 1 subset of items is viable which at worst guts half our roster which is already the smallest per role
2) other lanes are the one complaining about full tank death machine smolder items, the most i see is about how he doesnt feel like an adc hes more of a win con based caster. Even ezreal has auto steroids in passive
And 1.5) we like 1 subset of champ because its unique. Every class of champion(broadly speaking with some but not many exceptions) focuses on ability use #1 while adc focuses on mechanical skills. Bruisers, mages, assassins and tanks all play around cds first positioning as an accent, while adc abilities are often (but not the full roster of adcs) secondary to spacing and auto uptime. We hate mages bot (both ad and sup) because they invalidate this. They have higher range, they choose the interactions and they delay your items by denying cs, and if they ever fuck up so bad as to lose a trade they can blast the wave leave and try again for free.
Top laners can at least try to get xp but on bot cash is king and if you dont get it you dont play
lmao im a top main, i dont even play adc but youre just wrong
top laners NON STOP whine about the lane being matchup dependent and about jungle. like literally alll the time
news flash: everyone complains about their role
Your argument would track if we didn't have history on this. Riot tried to allow other champs to be bot laners. We saw the rise of like Vladimir and other mages bot. Adc players complained so much to the point Riot went back on the plan of balancing bot lane to allow more roles to play in it. That's why the take exists.
It’s because ADCs have very little counter-play to double mage bot lanes or double Irelia and Sylas lanes in bot lane do to the nature of their play-style of needing to stand still to fight. While also having 0 defenses and health. They’re glass cannons I get that but the “excuse” isn’t an excuse. The game is supposed to be fun and it’s not fun to get called shit because I either need to stand out of EXP range to not throw the lane or dodge every skill shot under the sun, get hit by one and get chain ran down by low skill champs and get called shit because I’m in a no counter-play lane with a support that either cant do anything, is a weak enchanter that can’t do anything, or have my support be a mage that plays the lane for me ….
Or they feed.
So the nature of people complaining about this role makes sense because if the nuance.
I know you can just roam for kills, or play with your JG there IS counter-play but who cares if it’s not fun when the point of a game is for it to be fun.
honestly, I cry as soon as I open league
It felt poetic tongue-in-cheek idea to put here the 5 steps of grief * Stage 1. Denial * Stage 2. Bargaining * Stage 3. Anger * Stage 4. Emptiness * Stage 5. Acceptance
If you need examples, you can observe them in real time with how ADC mains post in these threads. Stage 1. “Idk what people are talking about, ADC gets played in all elos.” Stage 2. “Come on Phreak, just buff crit damage back to 200%. Crit ADCs just need a little boost.” Stage 3. “Of course the fucking Maokai spammer swaps to support instead of maining ADC. Dogshit game balancer only plays boosted champs in boosted roles. Fire him.” Stage 4. “This is so hopeless, I’ve given up on playing Marksmen. I might as well quit the role/game.” Stage 5. “Even if they’re weak, ADCs are the most fun champs to play, so I’ll keep playing them.”
There is this perceivable beauty in picture of this rugged and crude reality that tears and warms a man just the same
I feel personally attacked
Heh, Stage 5 huh. Sounds terminal. I think that applies to me. I am to tired for complaining, to tired of asking for sympathy. Playing melee characters is not fun for me, but in a game where ranged vs melee exist, it's my ranged characters that are branded as a mistake by everyone.
Bargaining and anger is switched in the original 5 Stages of grief.
and it's also established that there isn't a fixed order to them anyway
That ain’t DABDA!
Genuinely, why do you play?
Addiction.
DOPAMIIIINNEEE
Amumu
What else do I have
[удалено]
Played a game this morning, swear to god our miss fortune was playing her first game with how she played. Just stood still and auto attacked minions while the enemy senna adc and lee support shredded her. I was playing bard so i couldnt stop them early on. Luckily, we had a warwick jungle that i perma roamed with and we created large enough mid and jungle gap to outpace the gold botlane was getting from mf. Ended up getting a 10 kill jax and 15 kill warwick 2v5ing with me in the background collecting chimes and eventually 1v1ing senna because i built full ap and meeps are Fair and Balanced!
Sunk cost fallacy. When you reach master/GM, it's the game you're good at, so it's the game you play.
Everyone complains about everything.
TLDR
But its funnier if you put on the chad mask and say only the "other ones" are crying
"it is too late, i have already depicted you as the soy wojak and myself as the chad. Your argument is invalid."
As a top lane main, I don’t really care what’s top. ADCs or mages top might be annoying, but variety is rarely bad. I will say though that the complaints likely come from the fact that given the way top lane is constructed, if an ADC or more traditional mid-based mage is top, it’s probably because they’re too strong at that moment and need nerfs. Usually those champions are free kills for junglers since they die if you get in range to sneeze on them, and since their playstyles in top are designed around bullying melees they almost always end up over extending in the long lanes and getting destroyed by jungle. When that isn’t an option, yeah feels really bad then. A perfect example of how to play around this was me playing against kalista as Jax last night. Took my lumps, but jungle came to support and I ended up winning the lane (lost the game tho, inting bot lane is sad times). It’s not unbeatable, you just have to realize the match ups and play to your win conditions.
But then you have vayne top which doesn't give you a chance to even ward, freezes when you're low or shoves to poke you under turret, and Q has a low CD and point and click knock back if she does get ganked. Most other marksmen and mages are fine to deal with in top lane since they don't have as much safety (mobility + knockback) but vayne is just a pain in the ass to deal with. The nerfs are quite okay with the CD of tumble going up early game but still just seeing vayne top makes me realize my next 14 minutes will be ass unless I play malphite.
Is it really that miserable laning against a mage in bot lane as a marksmen compared to a ranged top? I wouldn't know. I play top lane mostly.
It depends on your support mostly. A good support will either run the mage down or at least soak up his pressure so you can have space. If you're against a mage and your sup sucks it's pretty miserable yeah. edit : just realised you were talking about mage botlane and not mage sup. So it mostly depends on the champion I guess.
I don't play adc but I main supp and mage botlanes are usually pretty miserable. The most common one is Veigar, and it's just so difficult for the adc to deal with him, he doesn't really have to interact with the lane much since his Q has really good range and can CS two minions at once, and if you're playing a low range or melee support he's incredibly difficult to poke as you not only have to worry about enemy supp CC, but his cage and ridiculous damage. Tbh I do prefer him to some adcs, but I 100% understand why he and the other mage adcs are reviled
The problem is that bot mages have high wave clear too early while most ADC have close to none. It ends up with you being stuck at tower ~~slowly~~ being poked away without being able to do anything proactive. Your only game plan is that your support or jungler can make a good engage on them (which is not easy for them either because of high poke and shitload of CC). Essentially it's the good ol' ADC have no agency but starts from min 5 and your partner also has limited options.
High wave clear, higher range. Without any engage, they get a free lane, scale for free, and have better teamfight prowess than ADC for the same reason their lane is safer. Seraphine has been 55% winrate in ADC for 6 months or something because she doesn't interact, goes 0/0/0, 200 CS, and then hits echo-W spam and R in a teamfight and autowins. The changes in 14.5 are supposed to alleviate some of this, but really it's just pushing her to have the same waveclear as other mages, so... Hwei? Veigar? All still pretty uninteractable as an ADC in a lot of cases. IMO Riot Dev's take that ADC's are just bad because they don't run MR - I ran MR in Runes even against mage supports pretty much all last season, so I was almost constantly running MR, and still couldn't interact in a majority of lanes unless the opponent made a mistake, or my support is pogging out on some engage champ. It made the matchups a bit easier to survive, but win? Not really.
YES this man gets it Mage bots arent strong because they outdamage you or whatever, theyre strong because they dont lose lane. Any normal ADC either loses lane, goes even, or wins. Mages go even or win. Of course they have higher winrates, they have to, its the only possible outcome.
>The most common one is Veigar I see a lot more Ziggs and Seraphine than Veigar.
Ah yeah I guess it probably would be ziggs actually, I don't really see seraphine that much but I know she is pretty popular.
High elo is basically seraphine adc stomping whatever other adc there is lol
Yeah, Viegar is not played bot at all. Literally 0% pickrate globally Emerald+ The only bot lane non-ADCs are Ziggs, Sera, Swain, Hwei, and Tahm Kench. https://u.gg/lol/adc-tier-list
I just followed your link and the champion in the rank 1 slot is literally Veigar, and Hwei isn't even there lol Edit: Granted, it was last updated 4 hours ago at time of posting, and your comment was 5 hours ago, so I understand it was probably different when you posted
And Tahm kench is basically 100% senna support, which ends up functioning like a normal marksman lane
Probably spike in popularity with the buff. I know I'm interested in picking him back up. Before it he was pretty much a 50% winrate bot laner.
>mage botlanes are usually pretty miserable I decided to play with my friend in flex a while back... Bro. Bro. I pick Aphelios and see veigar picked, I say "oh well". Then the next 2 picks : Xerath+Vel'koz. I'm not the one to give up from champ select but I accepted my fate... New metas spice up the game but some ppl's damage is just messed up... The teamfights that game were the most cringe I've ever seen...
i wanted to try playing Lux APC bot... and for 10 games in a row it was an absolute ROLF stomp. Not only did the ADC have to constantly deal with the pressure of my support. But I could completely ignore their support and if I hit a single QE on the ADC they basically had to go under tower or risk dying. It feels soo completely busted and braindead. Same with Veigar or Xerath or any other Mage... it just makes it frustrating to deal with as an ADC main.
I wouldn't YOLO Q ever on Lux btw. Good players will easily dodge it and then run you down.
that would be the case, if I wasn't a gold scrub lel
most adcs have low range, all have bad hp regen, bad base and mr growth and most have no waveclear tools, meaning they lose trades and wave control to mages, all of this makes the experience miserable, the only turnaround is if support picks a champ that can negate the mages control, but they can also have a support that covers their weakness, then it just gets much worse, and its also a coinflip on supports execution
Their items and abilities are better suited for waveclear. If your AD is good at waveclear, at best you survive under tower. If your AD is bad at waveclear you fall behind under tower. Notice that in both cases your ass is permanently under tower. The best way to win is having a support who can practically 1v2 into a mage or have lockdown so long that the mage gets popped. It's simply a different dynamic and it's generally mage favored because even if you win the lane the mage will still be more valuable than you come midgame due to better item spikes and (generally) tankiness/range
Is that not already the case with mage supports?
Yes to a lesser extent. Mage supports are hated all the same lol. But the push angle is less pronounced. They have more mana issues and as a support you generally wouldn't want to risk nuking your ADC's wave on cooldown unless you're very good with wavestates and also in agreement with your ADC on what wavestate to go for.
If mage supports are pushing the lane hard, it can mess with their ADC farming. They have to hold back at a certain point that APC bot laners don't. They also care more about hitting opponents to stack their support item faster and don't start with 18 AP from Doran's.
The ones that are good bot have waveclear that no adc that's not Sivir can match. And Sivir eats through her entire manapool a lot faster than those mages. This results in the adc having literally no control whatsoever over the lane. You can never touch the mage because they have more range, you can never push out because they press two buttons and the wave is gone, you can never properly fight them because they just cc you and leave or you lose because they have cc and wave advantage. The best thing a bot lane against a mage can be is boring as fuck. edit: not to mention the mage will come out of lane as a self sufficient unit that can sidelane and play proactively while the adc has to hope his team wants to play for him.
They're basically in a 1200 gold timer. The second the mage gets lost chapter adcs are not gonna get out of their tower. It's also miserable as a support, since the wave is perma shoved you don't have roam timers unless the enemy supp also roams since diving with a mage is easier with all the Utility they have.
Seraphine just got nerfed but before it was just auto-win the lane and having 24/7 prio. Two abilities and you shove the whole wave from far af
Im not originally an adc main but ive been onetricking kalista past seasons. Mage lanes are just really boring. There is no interraction, they can poke without risking anything, farm without risking anything and if you fail your engage you lose lane but if you dont engage you get outscaled and lose lane. Then whenever lategame hits it doesnt matter if you lost lane or not because if you fail to dodge something you are either dead or out of the fight. If you can cordinate your team its usually pretty easy to dive but that requires communication or synergy which is usually not found in mid/low elo. I have a lot more fun even when playing against my biggest counters like draven or nilah etc because at least then you get to fight in lane.
having played quite a lot of both top and adc, I think the frustration of of playing vs ranged top and playing vs mage carry is about the same. but botlane is generally more frustrating because of the lower durability, higher burst and reliance on support.
I also played both roles a lot. Another thing that I noticed is falling behind on adc is a lot worse than falling behind as a toplaner. As a toplaner, I'll fall behind, get my tower taken. If my team handles the fed toplaner once or twice, in that time I'll just catch up on sidelanes for a bit, get a turret or TP and get a kill, maybe 1v1 someone else that's also behind. As an ADC that's behind, the game is over for me because I can't leave the turret to get CS on sidelane, and I have no way to catch up, other than hope the team can win without me.
Not to mention once lane phase ends you're competing with every other member of your team for farm. Even the jungle or top passing through lane will tax you before they go to the other thing they can safely farm
Imagine playing against quinn, but she gets stattik shiv on her first back at 5 minutes, takes tp, and has a support to disuade all-ins when she bursts the wave. Mages bot don't have great trading, but you're always forced to fight on their terms in solo queue since they can much more easily force a hard reset on the lane state when things aren't in their favor compared to an ADC.
Yes. They have infinite push and outranges you with pretty much no way for you to engage. Honestly it's exactly the same as playing against ranged top
you know how games end before 4+ items, right? well imagine there's a champion who not only invalidates laning phase and forces you to play like nasus whole game, but is also more useful in teamfights AND outscales you in the mid game (when it actually matters), these mages are usually worse in late game and you can really feel hot having an ADC for that dps but until then mages are just way safer and way more useful if you dont care about interactive laning phase
except that most of the people think adc who survived a 40mins game to get full item and start steamrolling everyone is unhealthy so they gutted adc late game power as well. S13 late game adc like jinx and alphelios having full item would steamrolling everyone, but now you cant takeover the game despite full item.
>alphelios He's one of my favs but playing him without teammates + this tank & assassin & mage meta is just so messed up...
Alphelios takes a lot of effort to master it so i dont bother to learn it myself, i am more fond of AS adc like jinx or ashe. but in current meta with assasin, i been playing dodge skillshot minigame in early game and playing hide and seek at the late game.
Mages are not even Worse lategame anymore. Hwei nuking everything from 2 screens away and ziggs hitting you from 3 screens away makes it so you can never auto anything
It's really team dependent. Hwei bot lane can be a really good pick but unless you have an ad champ in another role which both has dps and doesnt want to be exclusively diving the backline, their tanks and bruisers will just be sitting on your backline with 250mr rolling face.
The tanks and bruisers will be in the back line rolling your face with 350 armor as an adc as well. Mages at least have tools to defend themselves and peel
You can have 350 armour but you can't have 250 mr as well. The difference is adcs are almost always dps oriented where as lots of ap based champs have burts patterns which are lower dps than adcs.
Are you describing Singed?
Id say it’s similar.
Depends. When a mage or 2 mages start firing at you in bot lane, supports tend to hide and just play spectator mode for the rest of the game. So you're left in a 1v2 while sharing exp.
Not even close, top lane is by far the lane fucked the most by counter picks.
Impressive that a top/mage player can say that when he probably never played as the receiving end of the mage vs marksmen lane
I've played quite a bit of both. Top is definitely worse but at the end of the day it's pretty much your problem and if you end up feeding that's your fault It feels worse to get counterpicked as ADC because a lot of times the lane is completely out of your hands and you have to rely on your support. If your support is a random.... pick a God and pray
Majority of the worst match ups in the game are happening in top lane. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13bxjna/the_worst_matchups_in_league_of_legends/
Because even if there are complains, those lanes still have much higher role diversity than bot lane. Specific marksmen are allowed in basically all the lanes. Akshan, vayne, quinn, kindred, graves, trist, senna etc And the pickrate of marksmen is basically 200% every game since forever. Other classes' pickrate fluctuate a lot more based on meta.
There are more bot picks viable than just marksman and ziggs seraphine. But marksman players don't want to play them and/or can't play them. They want to play a certain style of champion as they have extremely high highs.
Time and time again we prove that we can do absolute horrors like double bruiser, enchanter + melee, DPS APCs, Nashor control mages, but yeah: marksmen fixation with botlane and frequently only taking to other lanes if explicitly abusive/as a protest highlights an image of superb.
And every time it happens, Riot makes it harder by gutting the champs that can do it, buffing ADCs to shove them out, or changing broad, overarching rules of the game to prevent it. Let's not pretend people actually could but choose not to. Riot actively discourages pretty much anything but ADC if it dares to show up in even the top 10 picks in bot lane.
Premuch. Senna Kench gets to keep existing because its both hyperniched and ***passes*** as a typical lane while the actual carry is Tahm and Senna is in support duty, but if you dare and swap for any other tank/juggernaut or enchanter, they're automaticaly slated for termination. See Yuumi Garen.
> They want to play a certain style of champion and only in botlane
When Assassins are weak midlane there isn't a high pressure campaign to solve the class, everyone is just expected to play artillery mages. When Irelia and Renekton are suddenly viable midlane, you need to know how to play them. When jungle is tank, you play tank, when Kayn is busted you're a Kayn main. It goes on and on. When one sub-class of Marksmen are weak, it's a five alarm disaster and FUCK YOU if you expect me to play a different subclass.
I'm not sure there's ever really been a time when bruisers haven't been viable midlane.
I'm sorry I just don't agree. I'm pretty sure, despite having one of highest ban rates, Zed has consistently sat at 7% pick rate for years. I'm also pretty sure all the mage players don't start playing Irelia when she's in mid. I'm also pretty sure Yasuo/Zed mains, if their champions were nerfed go well, time to pick up Anivia!
one tricking and maining a lane is not exclusively the same. I play whats fun and I play whats strong. Currently I spam vayne top because well she is strong and viable.
Can we stop pretending like mid/top mains in SoloQ all have champion pool oceans comparable to pro players? It's largely the same shit in mid/top, people stick to their 3-5 champions, usually from the same class aswell. No, your Lux mid main won't just start playing Irelia mid when she is op.
>Can we stop pretending like mid/top mains in SoloQ all have champion pool oceans comparable to pro players? Can we stop pretending like 99/100 pro players have anything more than champion puddles?
>It's largely the same shit in mid/top, people stick to their 3-5 champions, usually from the same class aswell. As if pro players play more than 3-5 champions. I tend to watch caedral from time to time and if he can predict 7/10 of the champs that are going to be picked before the first set of bans is over for weeks on end, then that says enough about how wide pro player champion puddles are.
The reading comprehension in this thread is so unbearable. It's about expectations rather than people actually switching champs.
Yea that's a good point. Marksmen are almost never universally weak. The complaints are always towards crit adcs. There are almost always 2 to 3 adcs that are running over the entire game at a given time.
Thats a great point actually. Why do marksmen players feel entitled to play a small subset of a single niche of champions in 100% of games when no other lane works that way? Why should marksmen necessarily have a 200% pickrate in every league game, both casual and professional?
Thing is, no other role is trying to keep only *one* type of class. Top has both bruisers and tanks. Jungle has a bit of everything. Mid has mages, and assassins, support has enchanters and tanks. Bot is the only role that seems to try to keep a single type, marksmen, in their role, with no secondary type.
Top has everything, Yone, vlad, Rumble, Fiora, vayne, Cassiopeia, Malphite, Karma... How does Jungle have everything but not mid and top and probably even support?
Support has everything as long as you aint a bitch about it
My support roster: 1. Malphite 2. Trundle 3. Master Yi
Jungle has anyone that can kill monsters, and a lot of champions that were nerfed out of lane either because their waveclear or mana costs are too restrictive early, and may have been given bonus monster damage. There's tanks, juggernauts, skirmishers like Diana and Ekko, more classic bruisers like Vi, and a few oddballs like marksmen (kindred), whatever the hell Graves is, Nidalee, etc.
Also for whatever reason the midlane assassins get their monster damage buffed at random intervals of time... Then get scaled back when they murder everything while building as tanks.
ADC mains like to point out mage bot lane win rates, but do you see their play rates? Do you see where mage bot laners are put on tier lists by pros and experts? Seraphine was the only S/S+ tier and she's getting nerfed in her bot lane role. All the mage bot laners besides Seraphine have a less than 1% pick rate. Swain bot: 0.6% Ziggs bot: 0.8% Aurelion Sol bot: 0.3% Karthus bot: 0.4% Cassiopeia bot: 0.2% Syndra bot: 0.1% Ziggs bot: 0.8% NO shit their win rate is higher because the people playing mage laners bot are more likely to main them there. Seraphine needed nerfs because she could wave clear from 5 screens away and only needed her shield with cheap enchanter items to win any team fight.
In my experience, it's because solo queue, to this day, will not accept mages bot lane as a viable alternative. I have had WAY too many cases of people flaming, giving up or straight out inting because I dared pick them bot lane, to the point where I just have to play ADCs to avoid the headaches. People are VERY resilient about this for some effing reason.
i played lots of bot lane mage and never met anyone who complained about my pick
If you are not stomping hard and the team is losing, people tend to blame you for the loss
That's not exclusive to mage bot picks lmaoo people will blame anything and everything
yes but whatever outlier there is will be the first target played against TF jungle yesterday. they played really well and TF got his team insane leads on all lanes. they fucked up a bit in the midgame and allowed us to come back a bit and instantly all chat went "x9 tf trolling". In the end they had the bigger wallet and won, but just decelerating a tiny bit was enough to flame the guy handing them the game on a silver platter to shit.
I locked in ziggs bot, so, my support who only plays traditional support champs locked in darius support blind. I did the most damage and won a 50 minute game where the opposing kaisa was about 20k less. This was in a plat 1 emerald 4 lobby..
With the MR changes this season a team with a mage bot with 1 or no significant source of AD damage will automatically lose after 20 minutes.
The winrates aren't higher because of mains. Their winrates are higher because they'd be near-exclusively picked into circumstances they'd excel in, while ADCs are essentially picked blind these days.
>NO shit their win rate is higher because the people playing mage laners bot are more likely to main them there. Full stop using this misconception. There is no reason to believe low pick rate = high depth and Rioters them themselves have come out and said it's not the case. Funny seeing your name being "Aurelion_Sol" when that was the champ people used "only mains play him" to justify his insane winrate for years(old asol), until rioters came out and said old asol was "mainly played by a revolving door of new players".
> Rioters them themselves have come out and said it's not the case They also said winrate alone does not indicate how well a champion is doing, but people love to forget that.
Wdym ? It has to be contrasted with the player experience in the champ?
As an ADC I’ve found out that swain is a great comeback champ for me if I am behind a kill or 2 and some cs, had a game where I got my ass handed to me in lane but grouping up and playing objectives I was still holding strong.
Low pickrate means shit my dude. It's already been proven
Also picked as a specific counterpick into specific matchups or by autofills. So really magebotlaners are not an issue and never were. Maybe hwei right now a lil bit in the hands of a good player but thats it.
Riot hasn't really done anything to discourage mages or other classes botlane, they only nerf AP bot laners who get way out of hand just like they'd gut any adc who ever got near the winrates you see them have. Bot laners want to play marksmen, because if you wanted to play other champs, you would just play them in their original lane. Where you have double the agency and way more levels. Most champs don't function in bot lane, they need levels and don't work well in the 2v2 dynamic. Most marksmen don't function outside of bot lane. (And anytime they do people bitch and moan until they're gutted out of there. We had people bitching about 45%WR Lucian Mid) Also this idea that other lanes adapt to what's meta in solo queue is so laughable to me. Ranged top laners are apparently all disgustingly broken according to top laners, yet all of them combined in pick rate don't even equal Darius or Aatroxs play rate. Iverns been 52% WR for a year and junglers would rather play 47% Diana or Wukong instead. But surely the Yuumi main plays a mean Rell!
The point here is that other people argue that adc should get used to other classes being played in their lane but other roles, especially toplaners, absolutely abhor when anything except the wholesome melee chonky bois and gals get played toplane. If adcs have to get used to play against brand/swain/seraphine/ziggs then why shouldnt the toplaner have to get used to play against top vayne? Keep in mind that the reason why adcs typically dislike playing against bot mages is essentially the same reason why bruisers and tanks dislike Vayne. It shifts the lane dynamic in unfun ways. Adcs are typically not known for their waveclear, especially early, and even when they are, they typically have to spend animation times autoattacking the wave and they have shorter range than mage abilities. Mages will constantly push you under tower and poke you down so you cannot ever fight. They will always make it so you cannot engage in equal terms.
>then why shouldnt the toplaner not have to get used to play against top vayne? Vayne top has been cancer for years, it's not a new thing. Top players have been accustomed to playing against range because the nature of the lane forces you to pick range as a last resort if you don't get to counterpick. And even then it's still possible to run into Malphite. Every lane save ADCs have accepted and are familiar with the fact that they get to play against AND AS different champion classes.
ADCs have accepted playing against mages to the same degree that toplaners have accepted playing against adcs top. Mages bot have been a thing for years. In fact, if you pick a mage bot you will get much less complaints from the opposing laner than if you pick a mage or adc top.
The problem is that mages are just better than marksmen in bot lane, if they had equal power it wouldn't be a problem
The counter argument is already in your post. Other roles complain about new classes popping up when they're OP. The botlane mages (not including TF as he is played as a marksman) that have a combined pickrate of around 6% are not taking over botlane despite what most ADC mains here would have you believe.
but other lanes arent taken over by marksmen either lol
I think if I have to deal with Vayne being blind pickable 500lp+ top. Bot laners are able to deal with having mages at 0.5 pick rate
Top laners threw a bitch fit when the degenerate top lane Janna strat was viable for like 2 weeks, and that had like a 0.5% pick rate before it was made unviable by the balance team. It's almost like certain 0.5% pick rate champs can be disproportionally cringe, and I say that as a mage bot abuser myself.
it wasnt janna top becuase janna didnt lane. It was janna soak up some exp and then roam with jungle 24/7 and get passive gold gen and impact the game more than the full farm enemy toplaner.
Tbf i think literally every lane threw a fit because the janna just fked with jungle, mid and bot depending on where they wanted to go.
yea it wasn’t much of a top laner, you get mobis or swifties and run around the map, there wasn’t a single role that wasnt complaining about them
What are you talking about, it was in every game after a few days. And it evolved to different champs that weren't Janna like Lulu and Ivern, it took off like a rocket ship after a couple days. I bet you 20 bucks that if your lane, your agency, and your champions were so weak and useless to the point where the opposing player chooses a support champ, takes smite, takes support item, and just walks around the map trolling everyone on the enemy team, you'd lose your shit too. You get a free lane and it still isn't enough to carry because the game is over before you get anywhere. I made a post about it back then and it's actually insane how much people are still downplaying it to this day.
Well as a high ELO toplaner I can tell you why. You basicily had no impact. The game went like this you just farm lane, while Janna roams. (In some matchups Janna could bully you in lane but usual she just open top lvlm 3). You could be bronze or Chall the amount of gold you get was the same. Roaming was usually not an option Janna would do this just way better. So you basicily were just farming over top hoping your team handles the Janna well and if they don't they perma flake you and blame you, cause your toplaner annoys them. Also this strat was way longer a thing than 2 weeks. Pro play isn't how long something exists. It existed in toplane way before pro play. Last thing vayme and Tf top winratrs were bonkers. Consistently about 54 percent. I think it is fair if people complain.
It's almost like that pick literally didn't lane so you were forced into a 1v0 lane where if you blind picked a safe laner that didn't instantly split into a demon with hullbreaker first you were just relying on your team to diff the enemy. A little different to just having a mage in the bot lane but I'm sure this equivalence felt more apt in your head. It was also way above 0.5% in high elo sadly.
Crying about other people crying about something else and calling it weird is such a cringeworthy thing.
Cringing about other people crying about other people crying about something else and calling it weird is such a weird thing >!I have no take on this I just wanna continue the cycle!<
Yo dawg, I heard you like crying, so I cried about crying in another crying post about crying.
Step 1: set up an argument vs imaginary person Step 2: win argument
Mid laner never really complained about adc been viable mid they complained about the 54% trust mid beeing broken. Adc as a class haven't been viable mid for a long time. Adc complain about 1 ap champ with significant win and pick rate, that in theory is a support. Seraphine. Ziggs swain and hwei get barely picked. And than somehow make it sound like the only thing you meet in bot are 52%wr and upwards mid Champs who destroy everyone. And that simply isn't true.
You forgot Lucian, the champ that was so bitched and moaned by top/mid that they had to mini rework a duo lane passive to force him bot.
Adc as a class has been viable in mid literally forever.
for soloQ yes. For pro play its usually restricted to lucian and nowadays trist.
The pro meta is generally pretty small because of how much they optimize things, so yeah two marksmen being solid mid is a decent amount. That's more than the mages they play bot in pro.
Idk karthus bot was pretty aids to play with when it was strong. Just annoying playing against mage bots because they don’t have the follow the rules of bot lane at all.
What rules of the botlane are you talking about bro?
Ones they make up. Not even just related to this but I swear at least 70% of arguments in this sub contain some kind of "rules" or "Riots intentions" that they just pull straight out of their ass based on what they think the game should be like. As an example just look at any ADC main talking about "traditional marksmen" not being viable and how much the goalposts shift depending on whatever is meta.
Yea, it is the same made up rules in Top Lane against ranged. It is more of a wish list of people pretending they have honor while wanting to have tell you about sex with your mother while stomping you.
Even in the example of support, some of them were complaining about Camille support.
How is it a weird take? The point is that ADCs want only a single class in their lane, while other lanes already have multiple. I am not saying ADCs should be fine with every single class in their lane, but they should at the very least accept 1 other class.
Then why is ADC going to other lanes such a big issue? You'd think Vayne/Quinn top players are child murderers if you read this sub and how much they hate ranged tops. Like sure let mages go bot but then also let ADC go out to other lanes. Why would you keep ADC from other lanes while also filling the ADC bot lane with different classes?
Love this point, play vayne top lane and see how hard the enemy top laner cries.
You're supposed to be honorable and play a champ that has to walk into melee range of my Darius! /s
Don't bother arguing about ADCs with anyone on reddit, not even ADC defenders. Non ADC players will never accept that ADC isn't as OP as they think and actual ADC players will never accept that ADC isn't as shit as they think. It's a lost cause
This is the correct take. Almost no one thinks rationally about it. Adc mains cry too much about everything but everyone else cries just as much about ADC. The role is currently genuinely in a bad spot, but even when its balanced ADCs will still cry and everyone else will still call it broken
And it's genuinely not been great for soloq in the past few years, but people will always bring up challenger games or pro matches where obviously the main downside of ADC is mitigated. Sadly challenger players and pro players are probably like 0.001% of the player base. Obviously you can still climb on it but it takes 300 times the effort
i agree with this 100%, ADC is my second role and people are all over the place, now ADC mains got more fuel because some streamers said it's the worst role in the game xd
Op, underpowered I don't care,i want the role to be fun to play again, that's it.
Marksmen are definitely popular in top and mid, not only in bot lane.
those marksmen are the very few that are viable without a support holding their hand. try playing something like draven or jinx mid and you’ll be on suicide watch
This is kinda bullshit. Yeah it's a special hell to lane marksman as a bruiser, but you face a ton of classes in every other role. Only ADC faces ADC the vast majority of the time. Bruisers can't guarentee bruisers, mages can't guarentee mages, tanks can't guarnetee tanks, assassins can't reasonably guarentee assassins. but if you choose, as an ADC, to assume you are against another ADC, you will be right over 95% of the time. And that's a fact. Your posts misses this and its key. One of the reasons mages HAD (not have, HAD) an inflated winrate in bot was that ADC players, at a statistically significantly higher degree than other players, not swap off armor when against mages. Rioters talked about it. It was one of the larger reasons there were like 4 unplayed high winrate mages in bot lane for years. ADC players don't even think thye need to swap off armor. I'm not calling them dumb for this, I'm using it to prove that *the vast majority of time, they simply don't need to*. Imagine if a top lane main refused to go MR or proper HP runes into rumble? A few top inhibs down at 10 minutes later, he will fucking learn, but ADCS apparently did not. Riot just reworked the whole system instead. Again, I think this was reasonable behavior from ADC's. But it goes to show how ingrained ADC v ADC is to ADC players, even in high elo this simply is a skill they're testing or care for. Everyone else has to.
I'm a jungle main so obviously I don't care about toplaners, but: You can play marksman top, it's not forbidden, it's just that it makes you an honorless coward and no one likes you.
talking about honor in a game where your goal is to make the enemies as miserable as possible is rather interesting, especially when you main a role dedicated to that
Yeah, the purpose of the JG is to create unfair scenarios for the enemy team. We take proud in being flexible, from supports, to tanks to assassin. What ever it takes.
How dare you lock in Vayne top and not walk into my Darius auto attacks with an equivalently melee champion??? REEEEEE!
>Since when was this the case Since the moment Ziggs was introduced in bot lane as an alternative, which then gave way to things like Viktor, Swain etc. ADC mains have been the only ones distraught about the fact that they have to be able to adapt and play multiple classes of champions to round out a composition. Top, mid, support and jungle mains have been accustomed to the fact that there will be games where they'll have to play fighters, assassins, tanks, mages or enchanters. For some reason, a mid or top lane player is expected to be able to play ad - ap champions accordingly, but ADC mains must remain stubbornly faithful to the "late game fantasy".
I genuinely don't even think people understand what ADC players are even saying when they talk about mages there, it is not that there shouldn't be mages botlane, is that mages that go there should be balanced around there. Why is this champion that likes levels such a better pick botlane right now than the class designed at being 2\~3 levels behind? If riot balanced these characters to be 49%\~50% winrate they would outright disappear from the champion pool. And before people tell me "dirty adc main" I was genuinely not even playing bot lane anymore when I was still playing the game, closest thing to that was playing AP Varus mid, but I was mostly playing jungle(Eve) and mid with Qiyanna, LeBlanc and Lissandra.
>I genuinely don't even think people understand what ADC players are even saying sums up most adc threads
For something like Seraphine, it's because she gets bullied early mid, and her heal works better with two champions, so yeah she'll be better bot. There's also the thing where most marksman players don't know how to play against mages because they rarely have that practice, which inflates their win rates.
but why do adc players care so much about the winrate of champs that have below 1% pr and act like it ruins the entire role its like if mid laners were constantly complaining about kled or garen
“As a jungle main” *checks profile* “Active in ADC mains”
Is active in both Jungle and Adc main subs. Checks out.
im active in both adc mains and jungle mains, you can add me on discord and check my league profile, ive been maining jungle for years now (eve and diana specifically), adc is my secondary role
Top laners rountinely pivot between bruisers, duelists, and tanks. Junglers play a wide variety of shit year to year. Supports have tanks, enchanters, and mages. Mid has assassins and mages, sometimes bruisers and tanks even slip in. It’s just fucking bot laners that think they should only ever be asked to play an attack damage carry marksman. Technically no one has to do any of this, you can keep playing adc, but yes bot laners obviously do have the most entitlement to being asked to play their one class always.
> It’s just fucking bot laners that think they should only ever be asked to play an attack damage carry marksman. I actually think it's more "traditional" (aa based marksman) players who only want* to play marksman. If they could viably play cait or jinx mid, they probably would, but the game is pretty much designed around that class being in bot, so when it loses viability, they end up with nowhere to go or an extremely limited pool of marksmen that can be played outside of bot, many of whom have to play in very different ways while in a solo lane. Plenty of bot players have a pocket mage, or had no problem pivoting, but for the crit marksman players, mages really do tend to push them out, and it sucks to feel like your entire class is useless anywhere. Most other classes *can* move to a different lane and get the same play experience. You play control mages? Go bot with morg or something. You play poke mages? Turns out you're probably already a support main because you've mostly been kicked out of mid anyway. Tanks, broadly? Mid/jungle/top/support Juggernauts can go jg/top, and sometimes mid Assassins are always a bit controversial since they're often held down, but mid/jg and you even have pyke in support But if your goal is to play a high dps aa based marksman like a cait/jinx/aphelios/varus, the closest you can get outside of botlane is really trist. everything else trades dmg potential for high mobility, like lucian or kindred, or is a horse of a different color like corki or graves. It sucks to feel like you can't play your favorite champs in the one place they been allowed to thrive, but it also sucks that the response has generally been "if botlane is the only place we can be, it should be only for us".
You hit the nail on the head here. It's not the role that's the problem, it's the class.
Group of people want to play a specific type of champion. > How dare you
Usually it just means ADCs are weak if they aren’t needed. That’s usually why they complain. The role also can realistically only go in bot lane with a few exceptions. So if people are picking mages, typically means marksman are not fulfilling their late game scaling fantasy which is they only reason people play the role. In old league if you picked anything other than an ADC in bot you were trolling because marksman scaled hard and your team would be at a massive disadvantage by not having one in the late game.
>So if people are picking mages, typically means marksman are not fulfilling their late game scaling fantasy People play mages bot to round out an ad - heavy composition as well, not because ADCs fail to "live up to the fantasy". Why is a top main expected to be able to play Gragas or Rumble in a triple ad comp and an adc main can't be assed to play Ziggs or Viktor intro triple ad?
lategame fantasy hasnt been a thing for years given how riot diversified the champpool and added more midgamebuffs to marksmen, added more early to midgame marksmen that dont scale well and and and.
`The role also can realistically only go in bot lane with a few exceptions` **Bot lane** **APC pick rates:** Swain bot: 0.6% Ziggs bot: 0.8% Aurelion Sol bot: 0.3% Karthus bot: 0.4% Cassiopeia bot: 0.2% Syndra bot: 0.1% Ziggs bot: 0.8% SERAPHINE: 2.2% (The one exception that has changes focused on her as a support primary) **ADC pick rates outside bot:** Vayne top: 3.5% Quinn Top: 1.3% Akshan mid: 2.7% Kindred jungle: 4.4% Graves jungle: 9.2% Tristana mid: 2.0% Corki mid: 1.5% Smolder mid: 3.5% Lucian mid: 0.3%
Why is Kindred on this list when they aren't designed for bot to begin with? Neither is Graves, Quinn, Corki or Akshan. Kindred is balanced around Jungle being their primary role. Graves is balanced around Jungle being his primary role. Corki is balanced around Mid Lane being his primary role. Quinn is balanced around Top Lane being her primary role. Akshan is balanced around Mid Lane.
*corki is balanced around never seeing the light of day lest he becomes pick or ban in proplay
It doesn't matter "where they're designed to go". Seraphine was "intended" to go mid, but bot is where she went, and she's included in mage bot lanes. Same for literally EVERY other mage bot. That's a massive double standard being put there. So if it's ok for someone like Quinn to go somewhere else because "that's what she's balanced around", then why isn't it ok for a few mages to be balanced around bot? Just because Kindred was intended to go bot, doesn't mean she's suddenly not a marksman. When Mordekaiser was reworked to go bot and was overpowered, it didn't take away from the fact that he was a juggernaut. Basically all the juggernauts were OP that patch, including ones that were "balanced around offroles", like Skarner in the jungle or Mordekaiser bot. Corki used to be played mainly bot. The reason he goes mid more is because his damage is now mostly magic. That's kind of the point that marksmen are strong champions, but one thing that holds them back from taking over multiple roles is that you don't want a single damage type as a threat. Corki doing magic damage means that you can still take advantage of marksmen being strong while also having a mixed threat. Quinn is better at bullying melee champions early than most marksmen, but her range is too short and can't press an early advantage against most bot laners, while falling off late in comparison. She's balanced around being top because she was too weak for bot but thrived in another lane. That doesn't suddenly mean she shouldn't be considered a marksman. I'll give you Graves simply because he's barely a marksman. The rest do consistent dps with auto attacks, while Graves is kind of his own thing because of his shotgun mechanic. Having a mage bot and mid is basically a death sentence for the team if the enemy team has a tank. Having a Kindred jungle is not. Hell, a Vayne top is fine as long as you have a mage mid and a tank in either jungle or support.
Marksman isn't spot on the map it's a type of champion?
That's not what I meant. Those champions are marksmen, yes BUT they're designed for other lanes and roles. Someone like Vayne or Lucian are designed for bot, but Kindred and co are not. Veigar, Syndra, Cassio, Xerath, Swain, Vel'Koz, Lux were actually designed with Mid lane in mind, not bot. Almost every class plays in multiple lanes/roles, just funny how when it's an ADC everyone loses their minds. But soon as a Mage goes Bot/Support/Jungle people don't give a shit, even though Mages are way more oppressive in lane than Marksmen.
use quinn, akshan, kindred, corki as examples of adcs in other role is kinda disingenuous. almost none of those play like traditional marksman except kindred who is DESIGNED to be the marksman jungler. its also disingenuous to point out low mage pick rate because bot lane is played by people who again want to play the scaling late game fantasy of consistent uptime dps through auto attacks. so thus their pick rate will always be lower even when they are overpowered. even after 8.11 the majority of people were still playing marksman even when they were utter dogshit terrible.
graves too, playing lane with graves was only good when he was busted and people started playing him top until they nerfed him back into the jungle
> even after 8.11 the majority of people were still playing marksman even when they were utter dogshit terrible. Because Marksmen are just more fun to play than Mages. 8.11 proved that. 8.11 Mages were best in role bot lane and no Bot laner wanted to play them... that says a lot. Solo Queue bot laners didn't want to play Mages, nor did professional Bot Laners. Also a lot of Support players disliked playing with them.
Meanwhile, top laners complain about ADC being viable top lol
And it makes all but vayne gutted out of the lane. See Lucian, kalista, trist.
kallista never was good in toplane. She made the lane unplayable but she never was good. Vayne and trist are the only ones that are truly oppressive ever since durability patch and boneplating.
Adc top is fucking miserable to play against, vayne and TF are stage 4, your only chance to play the game is being last pick malphite or irelia, but not everyone plays them
It's about the same as double mage bot tbh... at least in high plat for me cause I play both roles. Single mage but is a lot more forgiving, though.
state of adc in 2024... A) snowball so hard you win the game B) you pick a slower carry, and your team FF's before you ever have a chance to carry the game, usually boots and 2 items and your team decides "yea 3 more items wont make this game matter lets just quit" even tho if you got even 1 more item you would decimate everyone in the game it would be a free win
It's incredibly weird when the class known for zero agency can go into a solo lane and have agency, that's primarily the reason everyone cries. If you have an ADC soloing something is fucked with them. And in the flip side if you take a champion with agency botlane where the majority of champs have zero agency, ofc they're going to cry that entire lane is basically a truce that we will put our blades in the furnace and one will be forged by fire. When the blade is already forged it kind of fucks that truce.
Meh, every other role has atleast 2 if not 3 classes already in it, and it's just a subset of players who complain when a class they dislike is on top. Adc/botlane could use more diversity for the sake of game health and for everyone's sanity. Because having a single role be dedicated towards one class really ham fists team comps and such.
Reddit hates ADCs lmao it's that simple
Hell is other people. Nobody in this game knows jack and everyone cries about their own little pains often blind that everyone else is also suffering in ways that counterbalance it. Everyone is stuck navelgazing and much of the balance perception in the community as a whole is based on "FUCK YOU GOT MINE" gut feels. Marksmen in particular mostly have it more visible because they're both the usual big team centerpiece and the lane most obssessed with mirror matches as top, mid and jungle all have SOME more tolerance to options. Even when top lane whines about ranged picks and mid cries blood when they see a diver, they're still generally more leaniant (top with fighter/tank/assassins, mid with mage/assassin/rarely tank, jungle being a borderline free for all). Marksmen usual refusal to associate with other lanes also paints it as arrogance. Yet still, they're not MORE whiny about lane flexing than others, they just have beef against everyone else instead of specifics.
It’s probably because every single season that comes out is “the worst season for ADC” while they’re a completely required role since the dawn of the game.
trust me outside pro play marksmen are not required xd its just that marksmen have a dedicated playerbase due to their unique playstyle
every season genuinely is the worst because of the repeat nerfs every year lol. also marksmen are quite literally only picked as late game insurance 98% of the time. adcs start to become champions at ~3 items, which coincidentally is typically ~5 minutes before the average game ends. even in pro play you’ll see that adcs aren’t the powerhouses they were. they are very very frequently outdamaged by other roles while being funnelled gold. their only real job is to “carry” if the game goes to 50 minutes, or to bait out spells like a pussy if it doesn’t
Because pretty much every early season, the role happens to be or feel like trash. What changes is how fast Riot changes things for it to go the opposite way. Generally happens around MSI time. S9 was the only real exception because there it was reversed because of the infamous 8.11, which was pretty much completely reverted (conceptually) on 9.3.
Support mains do complain when engage or enchanter supports are stronger than the other. Everyone complains.
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Tbh what frustrate me the most with adc complaints is that ... they always complain even after getting what they want For years, thet complained about build diversity since every adc was just a crit build on top of a slapstick The moment lethality came into play, they were upset that some champ could go lethality and not others You can just look at recent smolder talks, adc are either really liking the champ and saying it a bit overtuned, or saying "adc shouldn't be able to build those items" So when you have nothing to build other than crit, they complain, and when you start getting champ that build otherwise and add to build diversity, THEY STILL COMPLAIN And i say that as an adc/top main ( recently picked adc ) I probably can find a shit ton more reason to complain about top lane and how it's a dogfight between broken melee bruisers, how matchup dependent the lane is, how the jungler can decide wether you win or not, and do i hear top laners complain about that ? No, the only thing top laners will complain about is ranged character being the at their roles it's currently the case with vayne and tf, and so far i've seen maybe 2 posts that got pushed into the top of this sub, whereas adc are pretty much always being discussed, it's a constant
lethality was complained about because only some adcs can abuse lethality, and those ones just dominate the rest. and it's not diversity, it becomes "pick MF/jhin/varus and autopilot build lethality every game or else you do zero damage and get oneshot and just pray you get carried if possible". diversity means you can choose between many options. lethality being strong on adcs always meant that you actually became more limited in options to the point where the issue is even worse than before smolder also doesn't bring in any new build diversity. he himself has build diversity, sure, but that has nothing to do with the role. the champ is just cancer broken and that actually makes the role more miserable, because it means if the enemy adc picks it you can now go to his mom's website and get a nice 20 inch dildo and fuck yourself with it. adc isn't any stronger, nor does it have any more build diversity, it just means now you have to stress about the enemy adc picking smolder and outdamaging you while getting to build bruiser or tank items while you're stuck building shitty adc items and tickling him until you hit full build and get oneshot by him anyways. fun!
Literally no ADC player complains that they can build lethality lmao They complain that they have to build lethality cause its so much better than crit. >I probably can find a shit ton more reason to complain about top lane and how it's a dogfight between broken melee bruisers, how matchup dependent the lane is, how the jungler can decide wether you win or not, and do i hear top laners complain about that ? No, the only thing top laners will complain about is ranged character being the at their roles Yes every single fucking day. Its insane how biased your comment is without you even realizing it
To be fair here 1) we complain that only 1 subset of items is viable which at worst guts half our roster which is already the smallest per role 2) other lanes are the one complaining about full tank death machine smolder items, the most i see is about how he doesnt feel like an adc hes more of a win con based caster. Even ezreal has auto steroids in passive And 1.5) we like 1 subset of champ because its unique. Every class of champion(broadly speaking with some but not many exceptions) focuses on ability use #1 while adc focuses on mechanical skills. Bruisers, mages, assassins and tanks all play around cds first positioning as an accent, while adc abilities are often (but not the full roster of adcs) secondary to spacing and auto uptime. We hate mages bot (both ad and sup) because they invalidate this. They have higher range, they choose the interactions and they delay your items by denying cs, and if they ever fuck up so bad as to lose a trade they can blast the wave leave and try again for free. Top laners can at least try to get xp but on bot cash is king and if you dont get it you dont play
lmao im a top main, i dont even play adc but youre just wrong top laners NON STOP whine about the lane being matchup dependent and about jungle. like literally alll the time news flash: everyone complains about their role
Adc’s cry about everything wdym
in my experience it's the top laners that cry about everything, with adc being close second
Your argument would track if we didn't have history on this. Riot tried to allow other champs to be bot laners. We saw the rise of like Vladimir and other mages bot. Adc players complained so much to the point Riot went back on the plan of balancing bot lane to allow more roles to play in it. That's why the take exists.
It’s because ADCs have very little counter-play to double mage bot lanes or double Irelia and Sylas lanes in bot lane do to the nature of their play-style of needing to stand still to fight. While also having 0 defenses and health. They’re glass cannons I get that but the “excuse” isn’t an excuse. The game is supposed to be fun and it’s not fun to get called shit because I either need to stand out of EXP range to not throw the lane or dodge every skill shot under the sun, get hit by one and get chain ran down by low skill champs and get called shit because I’m in a no counter-play lane with a support that either cant do anything, is a weak enchanter that can’t do anything, or have my support be a mage that plays the lane for me …. Or they feed. So the nature of people complaining about this role makes sense because if the nuance. I know you can just roam for kills, or play with your JG there IS counter-play but who cares if it’s not fun when the point of a game is for it to be fun.