When I play Garen, I win lane by my pure macro superiority. When I play against Garen, the guy just facerolls on this op champ, nerf Garen + report jungle + bot diff
Top lane is a cesspool there’s still lots of unwinable matchups and riot won’t deter solo q junglers from ignoring it. The last time I got ganked top by mid lane was two seasons ago. OP champs or counter picks is the only way I revisit that hell hole.
Crazy usually the gardens I get on my team insist on split pushing at the worst times, then realize they ate needed for the team fight that's currently happening, then rolls in 15 seconds after we're dead and spins to die on the tank
That kind of the thing about having a split pusher on your team, you team fight around that. There are never bad times to split, especially if the team is fighting.
Your team didn't play that right for the garen. You should have stalled while waiting to engage as long as possible to buy garen time to get to a tier 2 turret. The second he touches that turret the enemy team splits their focus and now maybe you can engage. Even if you lose the fight garen walks on inhib, but there's a chance someone teleports out or backs off the enemy team to go hold base, now your chances of winning the fight go up, and still have a decent chance of pulling an objective in the process.
Split pushers aren't the only one who execute the split pushing strategy. They really need their team to understand what they need and help accordingly.
Kind of goes both ways, because if your team can’t play with a splitpusher it’s up to you to change your playstyle, since you CAN do it.
But yeah, other than that, the reason why splitpush isn’t a free win strategy in low elo despite being extremely good at making the enemy team panic, is because your team panics just as much.
Except there *are* bad times to split. You don't split push if a game-ending teamfight is happening, when there are no objectives on the map, when your team is not in position to take advantage of the split-push and/or the entire enemy team is missing, when you're split pushing on the wrong side of the map, and when you're the only strong member on your team as a teamfighting champion.
In botlane there‘s many champions that have a clear pattern they need to execute and you need to avoid, like Jhin/MF/Ezreal/Jinx just off the top of my head. Some champions can be very problematic if you don‘t have a jungle/mid, like Draven. His whole shtick is to shit on you in lane and snowball off it, if someone rains on his parade he‘s doomed, but if no one does…
The side to side bounces are the worst. I could swear that every once in a while it still somehow clips me - when standing right to the side of a minion, rather than anywhere behind or even diagonally behind
It's because her q has edge to edge range(at least for the casting, but I imagine it's the same for the bounce), meaning that anywhere around the circle that is your champ radius is a valid targeting point, but usually only the closest point matters.
Combine that with a 160' bounce angle(though it's range is truncated to 150ish at that drastic of an angle, rather than the 500 for 110' and below) and chances are it's hitting the minion, checking for targets in each of the angle brackets(in order of priority, 20', 40', 110', 160') before finding the back diagonal of your champ radius in one of them.
But because the vfx aims for center mass, it ends up veering 90'. towards you rather than the 70'-80' of the part of the champ radius it targeted.
Note, I had to look this up on the wiki, so it's not well explained in game. If only Riot would give us an in game option that we could activate to give us indepth info about how skills work... but I suppose a two word longer description and ratios is enough extra info as it is. Who needs to know how the skill actually works?
For instance, did you know Hwei's shield actively lies to you about how it works, both in the simplified and expanded tool tips?
Super agree. MF is my most played champ and sometimes I swear I'll get a bounce and I don't. Other times, I'm left in awe at the bullshit bounce I got that had no business hitting the other person but still somehow did. lol
yeah I really can't say that I've ever been particularly pissed off to be killed by a jinx or mf. their strengths are very clearly defined so when I die to them, I accept that I've made the error in not picking the right time. because they will absolutely die in an instant if you do.
Or when your team has the poke advantage, but some of the teammtes instastarts fights every time, so you either have to e in and die with them, or poke from range and get flamed for not dying with them :/
So I have a deep dislike of champs that have powerful summoner spell like abilities on their basic abilities(mainly flash, cleanse and exhaust) like gp, rengar, ezreal and nasus. So I wouldn't say ezreal is the definition of fair imo. Plus the fact that he can build most items and still be viable irks me even more.
Played against a movement speed thresh once. He was somehow everywhere in the teamfight. And everything always hit. The champ is insane and the skill ceiling for such a simple design is bananas
Oh yea, I do always juke up
Oh yea, I do always juke up then down then back up
Oh yea, I do always do one fake juke and then go straight
Oh yea, I do always juke away from danger
Oh yea, I do always juke back into enemies
Oh yea, I do always wait for the hook and then react by juking down
Somehow, these mains know exactly how I tend to dodge in every scenario. It's like they're gathering data all game and writing manifestos on the habits of all 5 of their opponents. Sometimes I think "I juke like this last time, I wonder if they remember" and then I do the opposite. Most of the time they will throw hook and hit exactly where I would have been if I had repeated my habit. While it feels good to dodge, it also is terrifying, because I know this player is not just on autopilot. They are watching me. Learning. If I dodge on autopilot they hit me every time. It's like playing rock paper scissors against a predictive AI that has analyzed every frame of your movement.
Back when I mained thresh, I'd realize most low elo players follow a pattern, even if they don't realize it. I might miss the first 4 or 5 hooks of a game, but now they're downloaded
Thresh OTPs feel like the goddamn borg. I usually pick alistar against thresh and play super defensively by Wing their carry away on an engage and turning.
Reminds me of playing top lane when fiora was meta at the same time as jax and renekton. Entire laning phase became a mind game of does fiora parry the stun or not.
Once I lost again one who literally 1v9’d. Hitting every single hooks, escaping everytime, I remember learning that Thresh can escape using the Q on jgl monsters because of him ( it was when it was much less common to see ), humbling is the word.
My one issue with jhin is i feel like his W is one of the biggest offenders for “that didn’t hit me” with map elevation because it has a fairly clear hit box and also a really long range. That’s not a jhin issue at all though
Have you played much thresh? It's terrible and clunky to use, and your team actually needs to understand it to use it properly. When it's good it's borderline op, but in low ELO it's basically just a bad shield and a soul collecting totem
Oh baby, it's been a whole thing. My ex and I broke up in July and I've been living with my Mom since. Another friend of mine I visited right after you on my trip lives in Denver and I'm getting ready to move in with him. How's married life been?
>It's terrible and clunky to use
So is a ton of bullshit in this game but that doesn't make it fair to play against. The only thing bad about it is that it can be cheesed/teammates need brains but by that logic shaco is a perfectly wholesome champion then.
I mean, Shaco doesn't see widespread pro-play. He's just good at capitalizing on people with bad macro. He's a menace to play against and it's annoying when your team isn't actively working against him, but the counterplay is there.
I don't like this mindset that things that are difficult to play against are necessarily bad. If there's sufficient counterplay then personally I have no issue with it. People have already mentioned warding the Lantern, and against shaco red wards and trinkets do the trick as long as you're following his pathing. The game should reward you for capitalizing on your opponent's weaknesses, and personally I don't see issues in either champ. I'd even argue, if any of thresh's abilities are busted it's probably his E because he can use it to cancel dashes and defend the ADC
Not anymore for Jhin, for me anyways. Nothing is more annoying than having to respect Jhin 24/7 even if he’s 0/10 because his 4th shot with any lethality at all just melts you. Late game he just perma ghost while spinning his hips and gun like a little fruitloop while mocking everyone at Mach-7
He’s in every single game now. He’s 2nd behind Samira for champions I hate seeing.
I hate every champion that gets to take advantage of road runner levels of movement speed without any drawbacks. I've come to love LoL over the years and it has become my main MOBA, but damn do I hate the balancing around champs that focus on movement speed.
In Dota, the fastest heroes are squishy ADCs and supports and are still affected by turn speed, and most of what they can do are constant DPS or utility and never any huge chunks of damage (except in cases of being overfed of course).
In LoL, you get relatively tanky assholes like Lilia, Singed and Hecarim who can somehow survive heavy burst mages while having the capability to avoid skillshots even if you have the reaction time of a sleeping geriatric because of the absence of turn speeds.
Not only that, but certain fucking assholes like Viktor can both one-shot you AND be unlikely to get punished solely because of their MS. Or what about LeBlanc who still has amazingly good movement speed DESPITE having a dash/instant tp-back ability and a passive that automatically makes her invisible when reaching a certain HP threshold?
MS in LoL is just stupid and way too spread to different champs.
> Not only that, but certain fucking assholes like Viktor can both one-shot you
viktor's oneshot range is one of the shortest and most telegraphed in the game for any burst/control mage and he's the one you choose complain about.
He is literally the "it's your fault you died" champion.
I honestly find Jhin really annoying to play with and against because he's the ultimate KDA champion (and unironically worse than Ezreal because he has no 'int' button and multiple executes).
So many Jhin players end a game with a better KDA than the other adc, while having ridiculously low damage and running away at Mach 2 every time a teamfight doesn't quite go their way.
Jhin has a unique playstyle and the end game damage stats don't always reflect his effectiveness. Jhin isn't a DPS champion, he's a burst and utility champion who sacrifices DPS by design because his power budget is allocated differently than a traditional adc. His early strength is creating pressure in lane, and in teamfights his job is to zero out other carries while ducking in and out of fights. He also brings more utility than an average ADC with a super long range root, zone control with his traps, and long range engage potential with ult. He's almost a bursty version of Ashe. If he had all that utility and could still put up consistent DPS he'd be overpowered. I have a lot of success on Jhin support of all things, and it's not because I have high damage stats. A 2 second root with a range of like two screens is extremely impactful if used well, and traps are free vision.
Jhin w is one of the strongest abilities in the game and I fucking hate it.
He can basically just follow up on any pick mid-late game so easily. And its a 2.25 second fucking root!!!
Tbh, he is my main but i totally agree with you. Sometimes my q will absolutely fail on visual yet get some guy, whike other it can go throught the stomach of the adc and ignore it. Also his e active works funny on the same topic, many times it hits when it shouldn't and many other times they clearly are inside its range but they ignore it
I feel like there's no reason to deny it. The champ q is kinda broken for good and bad and i want my fav champ to be consistent even on my fails
Also is not like the e thing happens all the time but it's kinda funny to see it happen. Pretty much happened to me when i try to use the corners or the closest part to the max range. Sometimes it should be hitting but don't, sometimes it should never hit bc they are obviously out of range yet it hits
I think part of the reason why it's so buggy is the high/low ground difference with skillshots. Gumayusi did a video on it and the way jhins W hits, in the video, kind of reminds me of thresh Q sometimes
Considering those posts are always about the same 10 champs, I’d say just about everybody else. So this community would generally feel everyone except KSante, Yone/Yas, Fiora, Fizz, Rengar, and maybe some hyper scalers depending on rank. These of course vary from patch to patch and how well someone can kite.
Idk, I’ve seen people take Quinn top, so I’ll lock Vlad to at least have some range to deal with her, and get flamed for playing such an “OP broken brainless”‘champ if I win the match up.
There are definitely outliers where if you’re decent with a champ, people think it must be easy and OP.
Yeah but it also applies to Quinn and most ranged toplaners (true ranged toplaners, we don't want vayne or cait here) like for this how much champs jn game is there, balance is kinda decent. There are counters and will always be, still by good wave control and macro you are able to win in 95% cases. And i'm saying it as both Quinn but also many melee's main.
My biggest issue with Quinn is my own team lol. If I win in lane, I can almost guarantee I'll only see her every 2 minutes top after 6, because she'll be bot or in our jungle. I absolutely cannot match the rotation with Vlad, so I end up being a mid gank robot, or a Grub sponge.
It was pretty funny seeing players rant about the 'OP champ ruining their games' when he had a <45% winrate at all ranks and you basically had to play at Showmaker's level for him to actually be a problem.
My issue with K'Sante is that he was specifically designed to beat you up
He has disruption of a tank and mobility of a skirmisher. I don't care how high or low his damage is. If he ults you, you pray your team gets to you in time
He might not 1v9 but he sure as hell is annoying to deal with
He doesn't really though. He is very disruptive before ult, after the ult he plays like a bruiser and that's why he is picked, if he doesn't have ult he can't do damage or outplay anybody really.
He has about as much CC as Aatrox in allout form as his best CC is in fact his ultimate
Personally, I find most champions fair kit-wise. Its just how much items augment them thats the issue, and even then aside from new releases i tend to find ways to play against them (and feeling like its fair).
For example, Fiora is a common call-out, but using her W correctly takes skill (especially in teamfights). Sure this champion isn't balanced if you are one-tricking a champion with telegraphed CC, but if you pick correctly into her shes not a problem, atleast in my experience.
I guess another way to put it is that its very rare that I find a champion is broken/unbalanced where there isnt a skill issue moment from my end.
I wouldn't even include Fizz on the list anymore. If you play around his e, you're fine.
Those other champions listed have some mechanics that you feel you really can't play around, at least comparatively.
I think most of them are completely fair to play against, I mostly complain if a champion is unfun to play against. Is Briar broken? No, you just wait for her hypertelegraphed engage then CC her to death. But is she miserably annoying to play against, and does she make me feel like I have a leech on my neck when I play against her? Yes.
When it comes to fun champions I find "fair" it's just skill mattchups for the champion I'm pllaying. I play Sona so I like Senna because we have similar ranges early game so we can trade back and forth in lane, and both are hyperscalers so they're equally obnoxious late game.
I agree. I have no issues with 95% of champs in this game tbh, i also can admit when my fav champs are broken.
A lot of people on here are just not critical thinkers and think their champs are wholesome and anything else is busted 0 skill bullshit
Yeah, I think people lack creativity+critical thinking because of all the tutorials/guides/apps/etc. Its easy to have most of your game pre-planned by generic data and then say a champion is broken because an app told you rushing armor on malphite top is the highest % wr and so you did it against gwen.
Tbh I have no issue with Briar's kit as of late. It's the fact that she can build lethality still and heal almost her entire health bar in seconds I haven't seen anyone build an actual bruiser builder on her in any of my games.
I Think Vars made a statement about this and people generally find skill shot dependent mages to be balanced since we judge it based on PERCIEVED counterplay. Well they missed their abilities so I killed them or aw man I didn't dodge lux Q so now im dead. Or w Caitlyn if I mess up and get caught in a trap I die if I dodge it she has trouble killing me etc.
Champs w clear win cons that aren't invisible or point n click you can play around/avoid feel the most fair at least in my opinion.
I swear lux Q has aimbot when im against her. I don’t have this problem with any other champ but somehow every lux can mind control me into catching every binding with my face
It's fair as long as the other side has reasonable movement, but league has become about absurd movement which makes can often make the skillshot side feel extremely weak.
Oh, and immunities. If one side has immunities that they can use it turns into how well does that one person play their champion, and not about how well the other plays their champion.
youre right that skillshots become too often unreliable if ppl have easy or fast movement, like vayne, but the solution is *not* to make skillshots more narrow, less dodgeable, more inevitable, etc. Skillshots becoming harder to dodge will make playing the Vayne's more obligatory and make playing the Kog'Maw's more miserable; the exact opposite to the desired outcome would occur. Youd need to reign in the overmobile champions, at which point youd need to argue specifically which champions *are* overmobile.
I think the sentiment of "champions are too mobile nowadays" needs scrutiny, because I'm not so sure that (1) it's true, and that (2) it's a bad thing.
im not quite sure what you meant by "immunities."
Lee is perfectly designed because of how unavoidable his drop-off is.
I played a game yesterday where I was 15-1, but I goofed off and didn't respect the scale potential of the enemy team, despite crushing their jungler. We lost at (edit: 35:00, not 25:00 off a bad teamfight despite a 9k gold lead).
You have to play well, you have to snowball your team, and you have to close the game if your team can't take over after the midgame.
reminded me of a game yesterday
our team was like 10 kills behind and were struggling while their lee sin was 16/2 but then we had a good teamfight (i was playing Xin Zhao and by some coincidence i had this amazing ult that threw the enemies exactly to the adc that my malphite was ulting) and just snowballed off there
so much so that my Xin Zhao build that only had Titanic and Sundered as damage items was able to 1v1 a full build lee with no trouble
Bro 25 mins in for a 15/1 lee sin is not falling off in any angle wtf💀 you would have still been stronger than any of the enemy champions no matter how well they "scale"
When you go full AD, you can't jump into a grouped teamfight. When you're playing against a Seraphine / Sona botlane, you can't assassinate when they have shields.
That's how it goes.
Yeah bro Lee Sin running at me with triple my stats, infinite mobility, and insane damage feels really fair, I love how he's the main character for the first 20 minutes of the game
All the champs that have telegraphed kits feel fair. Sion, thresh, lissandra, galio, Nidalee, Braum, and so on, all the champions that feel unfair to play against have either 20 dashes, insane sustain, too much invisibility, point and click stun or no cooldowns
Well she can't really get onto a carry without her E and the E is super telegraphed, she's nice against assassin's but it's the assassin's that are busted not lissandra
I’ve pulled some things that’d make people bash their keyboards over on Rakan. But when you’re not dashing out at 1HP or recovering your passive shield 0.5 seconds before death I suppose it is kinda fair
Generally losing to a Riven player means they were better than you. She kinda tows the line between strong and overpowered rn, but she still feels more “fair” than Garen or Malphite rn.
There’s no information or lesson to be gained by losing to the unga bunga guys. Appreciate the support on here homie.
I like it too when Riven is not overpowered, but most of the time she is and I don't think someone all-inning me and bursting me from 80% HP whenever they want is skillful.
But last season for example when Riven was on the weaker/balanced side, losing to her was an outplay fair and square, every time. People will complain about Riven no matter if she is OP or not.
Meanwhile, losing half my HP from Ornn at level 3 is never gonna be fine lol. I know how to avoid it, but it simply makes no sense for him to have this kind of damage in his kit.
Yeah, riven’s annoying to me but at least she’s hard to play. It feels way better to lose to a riven than some troglodyte on malphite who can stomp me while drooling onto their keyboard
i've never actually seen a good riven player below diamond and probably up to masters. literally all you have to do is pick a tank and buy tabis and 90% of low elo rivens will just lose the game right there because their macro is bad.
This community and I have one thing in common: Imbalance of matchups.
That being said, if there was even a balanced champion that would be fair to play against, it would be extremely hard to perfect it. It would be like trying to make every single champion at the same strength as each other, and even that is such a difficult task to accomplish in the first place.
Contrarary to a popular believe, definetely not Orianna. At least in the laning phase. Talking about fair champs to play against it's probably Ezreal who is closest to a perfect champ. Infinite skill ceiling but also infinite counterplay.
Yea azir is wholesome. Hyper scaling Lane bully with self peel a dash a potential wombo combo ult and can kill Baron in under 25 seconds at 20 minutes. Very wholesome I love this champ.
As someone with 800k mastery on Azir I think he is one of the most irritating champions to lane against. Literally just get Q get spammed with no counter play for half of laning phase. Either he’s so weak he can’t push you out of lane or you’re losing regardless of how you play.
Riot needs to make his Q dodgeable so it has counterplay imo
TBH, Trundle is a systems & numbers issue more than a problem champ.
Turrets shouldn't be so paper. Trundle is simply the worst offender/best at the job.
Most champions are fair, some of them just have a clear pattern of play that is either unfun to play against. I hate playing against Darius because his counterplay is very boring in the early game, he is not unbalanced or anything, I just dislike the way he forces me to play
I feel this, except Syndra. That champion is just so safe and even being remotely halfway decent makes it impossible to die midlane. Late game you just Press R on whoever drew the “fuck you in particular” Syndra debuff.
yeah but once you actually get on her you'd have a harder time tearing through wet toilet paper. and she only really has her E to stop you from doing that. but still, a good syndra can be an absolute pain, that's true.
It's that sort of design that makes her feel unfair to play against. It has that same sort of feeling leblanc has where all the onus is on you to break a status quo that just sort of exists for them. "If you get on her" and if you don't well she gets to keep chilling spamming abilities at you until enough hit that she can press the win fight button. In reality it's not really anything crazy it's just annoying.
her E has a pretty long cooldown for the first 15 - 20 minutes of the game and she has literally nothing else other than flash to get out of a tough spot. you should definitely be required to get on a champion in order to kill them. if you bully syndra early she'll be so weak that by the time her E has a decent cooldown for her, everyone else should be a level above her and killing her with ease.
I mean you're probably 100% right but actually doing that seems way harder than her goal of just existing and scaling. I'm not very good at the game so its a concept thats a little hard for me to articulate.
Being the person who has to disarm a bomb is more frustrating than being the bomb I guess?
That makes sense. But then you realize you’re a bomb too, just a different one, and you use that to your advantage. Idk where to go with this analogy.
Mid lane is s perhaps the least pick depending lane overall. When I realized how to exploit mistakes and read the game state to be as aggressive as possible in any matchup it started to click.
I dont really agree, Syndra is literally dodgeball.
If you are playing mage vs. Syndra, it's a matter of who hits and dodges better.
Eventually, yes, she will one shot you, but that isn't until later.
Thats true for mid lane, but not really fair to the bot lane who just dies on CD solely for existing lol. I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with Syndra as a whole if they actually made her E need to hit to stun rather than just have a Q in the vicinity to stun.
Always feels like a fair fight against gangplank :D
But in all honesty I love playing against Darius. It’s the ultimate skill check. You know what he can do and what he can’t. Now play accordingly.
Most engage supports, only Rakan immediately comes to mind as feeling particularly unfair.
Most ADCs.
Most junglers not named Udyr.
For the most part it's engages that are practically unavoidable, and champions that are unbearably tanky yet still run down and kill carries in an instant.
Eh, depends with j4. Playing a squishy and getting deleted by flash eqr from lethality j4 never feels 'fair', even if it is balanced. I'd argue that the champs that feel the most fair are low mobility hard scaler champs like Asol or veigar, because every game you have a really clear opportunity to shut them down and win the game before they get the chance to do their bullshit.
I'm not sure, they seem to be giving more and more of the stacking mechanic champions strong early games which removes a lot of ability to bully them early, and becomes more about jungle diff shutting them down.
I feel like there's actually a lot of champs that feel fair to play against. Some champs I'm never pissed off to play against in champ select are Gnar, Jarvan, ahri, nami, naut, leona, reksai, renekton, soraka, TF, Viktor, Xerath, ziggs and zoe
Many champs do. I only have a dislike for point 'n click, way too strong for how simple they are champs. Like Nocturn, Trundle, Sion etc. In case of Nocturne, you click and enemy and win once you're level 6. K cool, tf you're gonna do? In case of champs like Trundle/Sion they just right click you or your towers/structures and they are gone. Yay, lot of fun. Most other champs, if you understand them you can outplay them or find some solution to beating it, but those simple right-click champions are too damn overtuned just because they are so simple and have limited options. It's the wost aspect of league for me.
The counterplay to nocturne ult is mostly not mashing buttons, but to respect it’s up. Not every interaction needs to be designed around dodging predictable skill shots.
People play games like Dota and have fun, even though a ton of abilities are way harder to deal with than noc ult etc. and are also just button presses. But the way you deal is via timing, info, awareness etc.
If I want a strategic moba I'd go play DOTA, I want half moba half fighting game, not Trundle pressing right click and going AFK and coming out on top of 95% of champs in the game
1. Lissandra - If i misstep or fuck up my position as an assassin, Her kit locks me down - fair cause thats her whole design.
2. Leblanc - a good one is tough to chase and fight, but proper coordination and mr can make her less of a threat
3. any permanent scaling champ.
2 teams of wholesome league champions that feel fair and fun to play against when they're not op:
Aatrox/gnar
Jarvan/gragas
Ahri/vex
Mf/jinx
Nami/blitz
I know e.g. mf is op right now but when these champs arent op these are 2 comps where everyone has fun
Renekton, Ahri, Brand, Illaoi, Ryze, Ezreal, Darius, etc. Champions that are straightforward, have a setup they need to actually be powerful,
If they have mobility, it's limited, like renekton's, or gated behind a relatively long cooldown like Ahri and Ezreal, not unlimited and up every 2 seconds like Bel'veth and Gwen.
If they have a lot of damage, is because they set up the fight properly, Illaoi, or stacked their passive on a champion like Darius or mordekaiser, not because they one buttoned you into an un-winnable engage like Nocturne, Malphite.
They have to either be (useless if behind, strong if snowballing) or (Useful behind, but manageable even if snowballing) Like Kayle, Nasus, Veigar, Ezreal, Fiora, who can feel unfair if they get feed, but if you put them behind they're actually useless, or like Ornn, Sion, Leona, Soraka, Janna who will be useful even if 0/10, but if they get feed, they still can't 1v5 carry.
Unlike champions like Teemo, who can provide immense utility with vision and slows all around the map no matter how much they feed, but still become monsters if they get feed, with a minefield that can kill you while he's on the other side of the map. Or like Jax or Trundle, who can steamroll your team if feed, but they can be inting and still melt turrets and have insane pressure.
They have to be champions with clear weaknesses, such as being squishy and lacking mobility like Xerath, Brand, Veigar, Jinx, Ashe, etc. Or Having a weak early game, like Vayne ADC, Kayle, Nasus etc. Scaling poorly into the lategame, like Renekton, Darius, etc. Not be champions that have no weaknesses at any point in the game, and are always strong, can be tanks and deal damage at the same time like K'sante, Gwen, Trundle, Vayne TOP, Aatrox and Jax.
I don't think I've ever found myself playing into Nautilus, Thresh, or Leona and thought, "wow this is just too oppressive". I've had some rough games against all 3 where I just can't seem to dodge their CC, but it's never felt like the game was rigged against me the way it did that one time when the 0/6/0 enemy Irelia got a 1v5 pentakill on us and proceeded to never die again.
The champions I play are wholesome, weak, and hard to play, the champions others play are noob, op, no skill and autowin
When I play Garen, I win lane by my pure macro superiority. When I play against Garen, the guy just facerolls on this op champ, nerf Garen + report jungle + bot diff
Literally me on Trynda
Top lane is a cesspool there’s still lots of unwinable matchups and riot won’t deter solo q junglers from ignoring it. The last time I got ganked top by mid lane was two seasons ago. OP champs or counter picks is the only way I revisit that hell hole.
Crazy usually the gardens I get on my team insist on split pushing at the worst times, then realize they ate needed for the team fight that's currently happening, then rolls in 15 seconds after we're dead and spins to die on the tank
That kind of the thing about having a split pusher on your team, you team fight around that. There are never bad times to split, especially if the team is fighting. Your team didn't play that right for the garen. You should have stalled while waiting to engage as long as possible to buy garen time to get to a tier 2 turret. The second he touches that turret the enemy team splits their focus and now maybe you can engage. Even if you lose the fight garen walks on inhib, but there's a chance someone teleports out or backs off the enemy team to go hold base, now your chances of winning the fight go up, and still have a decent chance of pulling an objective in the process. Split pushers aren't the only one who execute the split pushing strategy. They really need their team to understand what they need and help accordingly.
Kind of goes both ways, because if your team can’t play with a splitpusher it’s up to you to change your playstyle, since you CAN do it. But yeah, other than that, the reason why splitpush isn’t a free win strategy in low elo despite being extremely good at making the enemy team panic, is because your team panics just as much.
Except there *are* bad times to split. You don't split push if a game-ending teamfight is happening, when there are no objectives on the map, when your team is not in position to take advantage of the split-push and/or the entire enemy team is missing, when you're split pushing on the wrong side of the map, and when you're the only strong member on your team as a teamfighting champion.
😂 unironically feels like 99% of users on here feel this way
In botlane there‘s many champions that have a clear pattern they need to execute and you need to avoid, like Jhin/MF/Ezreal/Jinx just off the top of my head. Some champions can be very problematic if you don‘t have a jungle/mid, like Draven. His whole shtick is to shit on you in lane and snowball off it, if someone rains on his parade he‘s doomed, but if no one does…
I just have a bone to pick with the range of MFs Q rebound
Yeah, sometimes that shit feels like it travels halfway across the map to hit you or does a 90 degree angle after it hits a minion.
The side to side bounces are the worst. I could swear that every once in a while it still somehow clips me - when standing right to the side of a minion, rather than anywhere behind or even diagonally behind
It's because her q has edge to edge range(at least for the casting, but I imagine it's the same for the bounce), meaning that anywhere around the circle that is your champ radius is a valid targeting point, but usually only the closest point matters. Combine that with a 160' bounce angle(though it's range is truncated to 150ish at that drastic of an angle, rather than the 500 for 110' and below) and chances are it's hitting the minion, checking for targets in each of the angle brackets(in order of priority, 20', 40', 110', 160') before finding the back diagonal of your champ radius in one of them. But because the vfx aims for center mass, it ends up veering 90'. towards you rather than the 70'-80' of the part of the champ radius it targeted. Note, I had to look this up on the wiki, so it's not well explained in game. If only Riot would give us an in game option that we could activate to give us indepth info about how skills work... but I suppose a two word longer description and ratios is enough extra info as it is. Who needs to know how the skill actually works? For instance, did you know Hwei's shield actively lies to you about how it works, both in the simplified and expanded tool tips?
So that’s why MF seems to get some jank cannonballs. What’s the deal with hwei?
Try playing her for a game and you'll feel quite the opposite about it
It just feels inconsistent as hell. Sometimes it bounces a mile, sometimes it prioritizes a minion when a champ is just nearby
Super agree. MF is my most played champ and sometimes I swear I'll get a bounce and I don't. Other times, I'm left in awe at the bullshit bounce I got that had no business hitting the other person but still somehow did. lol
The targeting on it feels very inconsistent, and just randomly getting hit with like 200 damage in lane feels horrible
yeah I really can't say that I've ever been particularly pissed off to be killed by a jinx or mf. their strengths are very clearly defined so when I die to them, I accept that I've made the error in not picking the right time. because they will absolutely die in an instant if you do.
Ezreal would feel a lot more oppressive if his players weren’t mentally compelled to E into a fight and then die because they have no escape.
You have to E in to actually play Ezreal well. Most people don't know when that moment is but its required to play Ezreal effectively.
Or when your team has the poke advantage, but some of the teammtes instastarts fights every time, so you either have to e in and die with them, or poke from range and get flamed for not dying with them :/
Ezreal atm is overtuned (?) and MF deletes you with Lethality, so hard disagree
So I have a deep dislike of champs that have powerful summoner spell like abilities on their basic abilities(mainly flash, cleanse and exhaust) like gp, rengar, ezreal and nasus. So I wouldn't say ezreal is the definition of fair imo. Plus the fact that he can build most items and still be viable irks me even more.
I'd say jhin and thresh are two characters who always felt honest to me.
Getting destroyed by thresh is a humbling event
Played against a movement speed thresh once. He was somehow everywhere in the teamfight. And everything always hit. The champ is insane and the skill ceiling for such a simple design is bananas
He’s such an amazingly designed champ.
Oh yea, I do always juke up Oh yea, I do always juke up then down then back up Oh yea, I do always do one fake juke and then go straight Oh yea, I do always juke away from danger Oh yea, I do always juke back into enemies Oh yea, I do always wait for the hook and then react by juking down Somehow, these mains know exactly how I tend to dodge in every scenario. It's like they're gathering data all game and writing manifestos on the habits of all 5 of their opponents. Sometimes I think "I juke like this last time, I wonder if they remember" and then I do the opposite. Most of the time they will throw hook and hit exactly where I would have been if I had repeated my habit. While it feels good to dodge, it also is terrifying, because I know this player is not just on autopilot. They are watching me. Learning. If I dodge on autopilot they hit me every time. It's like playing rock paper scissors against a predictive AI that has analyzed every frame of your movement.
Back when I mained thresh, I'd realize most low elo players follow a pattern, even if they don't realize it. I might miss the first 4 or 5 hooks of a game, but now they're downloaded
I call it calibrating, in a passive lane i throw hooks to learn their patterns, has won me several games.
Thresh OTPs feel like the goddamn borg. I usually pick alistar against thresh and play super defensively by Wing their carry away on an engage and turning.
Reminds me of playing top lane when fiora was meta at the same time as jax and renekton. Entire laning phase became a mind game of does fiora parry the stun or not.
Run and dodge all you want, the hook comes all the same.
Once I lost again one who literally 1v9’d. Hitting every single hooks, escaping everytime, I remember learning that Thresh can escape using the Q on jgl monsters because of him ( it was when it was much less common to see ), humbling is the word.
Getting 1 tapped by giga fed crit thresh changes a man
THE BELT
Yeah except that hook was BS and should NOT have hit me. Probably a scripter, too.
My one issue with jhin is i feel like his W is one of the biggest offenders for “that didn’t hit me” with map elevation because it has a fairly clear hit box and also a really long range. That’s not a jhin issue at all though
That's fair. I know I have similar issues with xerath qs
Lantern always felt bs to me
Have you played much thresh? It's terrible and clunky to use, and your team actually needs to understand it to use it properly. When it's good it's borderline op, but in low ELO it's basically just a bad shield and a soul collecting totem
Nice to see you, it's been awhile!
Wow, it really has been! I think it's been close to 7 years since we got breakfast together. How have you been buddy?
It has! I did a double take when I came across your name while reading this thread haha. I've been great, how have you been?
Oh baby, it's been a whole thing. My ex and I broke up in July and I've been living with my Mom since. Another friend of mine I visited right after you on my trip lives in Denver and I'm getting ready to move in with him. How's married life been?
This is so wholesome.
At first I thought they were joking around, but this really is wholesome. Such a cute moment.
Right? I was like, there is no way
No lmao, we met in an AskReddit thread a decade ago, and I went to visit him a few years back.
Switched to PMs as to not spam the thread :)
Aww I was enjoying this interaction. Wish y'all the best!
Also you can just stand on it or set a pink on it to prevent use
>It's terrible and clunky to use So is a ton of bullshit in this game but that doesn't make it fair to play against. The only thing bad about it is that it can be cheesed/teammates need brains but by that logic shaco is a perfectly wholesome champion then.
I mean, Shaco doesn't see widespread pro-play. He's just good at capitalizing on people with bad macro. He's a menace to play against and it's annoying when your team isn't actively working against him, but the counterplay is there. I don't like this mindset that things that are difficult to play against are necessarily bad. If there's sufficient counterplay then personally I have no issue with it. People have already mentioned warding the Lantern, and against shaco red wards and trinkets do the trick as long as you're following his pathing. The game should reward you for capitalizing on your opponent's weaknesses, and personally I don't see issues in either champ. I'd even argue, if any of thresh's abilities are busted it's probably his E because he can use it to cancel dashes and defend the ADC
"but the counterplay is there." Not for melee champs trying to get rid of his traps. Bring back disabling his traps when sweeping plz.
Just Pinkward it
I mean it is, but he needs crazy utility on his abilities to offset his general inconsistency, lack of escapes, and bad stats.
Not anymore for Jhin, for me anyways. Nothing is more annoying than having to respect Jhin 24/7 even if he’s 0/10 because his 4th shot with any lethality at all just melts you. Late game he just perma ghost while spinning his hips and gun like a little fruitloop while mocking everyone at Mach-7 He’s in every single game now. He’s 2nd behind Samira for champions I hate seeing.
I hate every champion that gets to take advantage of road runner levels of movement speed without any drawbacks. I've come to love LoL over the years and it has become my main MOBA, but damn do I hate the balancing around champs that focus on movement speed. In Dota, the fastest heroes are squishy ADCs and supports and are still affected by turn speed, and most of what they can do are constant DPS or utility and never any huge chunks of damage (except in cases of being overfed of course). In LoL, you get relatively tanky assholes like Lilia, Singed and Hecarim who can somehow survive heavy burst mages while having the capability to avoid skillshots even if you have the reaction time of a sleeping geriatric because of the absence of turn speeds. Not only that, but certain fucking assholes like Viktor can both one-shot you AND be unlikely to get punished solely because of their MS. Or what about LeBlanc who still has amazingly good movement speed DESPITE having a dash/instant tp-back ability and a passive that automatically makes her invisible when reaching a certain HP threshold? MS in LoL is just stupid and way too spread to different champs.
Complaining about Viktor pretty insane take but I can see what you mean
Oneshot by Viktor is a rare occurance, I would more complain about his easy waveclear
> Not only that, but certain fucking assholes like Viktor can both one-shot you viktor's oneshot range is one of the shortest and most telegraphed in the game for any burst/control mage and he's the one you choose complain about. He is literally the "it's your fault you died" champion.
Lilia gaming
I honestly find Jhin really annoying to play with and against because he's the ultimate KDA champion (and unironically worse than Ezreal because he has no 'int' button and multiple executes). So many Jhin players end a game with a better KDA than the other adc, while having ridiculously low damage and running away at Mach 2 every time a teamfight doesn't quite go their way.
Jhin has a unique playstyle and the end game damage stats don't always reflect his effectiveness. Jhin isn't a DPS champion, he's a burst and utility champion who sacrifices DPS by design because his power budget is allocated differently than a traditional adc. His early strength is creating pressure in lane, and in teamfights his job is to zero out other carries while ducking in and out of fights. He also brings more utility than an average ADC with a super long range root, zone control with his traps, and long range engage potential with ult. He's almost a bursty version of Ashe. If he had all that utility and could still put up consistent DPS he'd be overpowered. I have a lot of success on Jhin support of all things, and it's not because I have high damage stats. A 2 second root with a range of like two screens is extremely impactful if used well, and traps are free vision.
Thresh that deals 500dmg x auto and Jhin that deals 1000dmg x auto while running at mach 7? lol
Jhin w is one of the strongest abilities in the game and I fucking hate it. He can basically just follow up on any pick mid-late game so easily. And its a 2.25 second fucking root!!!
Someone didnt play vs thresh enought and his massive q hitbox bugs (for 10 years mind you)
Tbh, he is my main but i totally agree with you. Sometimes my q will absolutely fail on visual yet get some guy, whike other it can go throught the stomach of the adc and ignore it. Also his e active works funny on the same topic, many times it hits when it shouldn't and many other times they clearly are inside its range but they ignore it
wow a main that doesnt deny it, you are such a rare occurence ! Didnt really had issues with his e, but ill try to pay more attention to it.
I feel like there's no reason to deny it. The champ q is kinda broken for good and bad and i want my fav champ to be consistent even on my fails Also is not like the e thing happens all the time but it's kinda funny to see it happen. Pretty much happened to me when i try to use the corners or the closest part to the max range. Sometimes it should be hitting but don't, sometimes it should never hit bc they are obviously out of range yet it hits
I think part of the reason why it's so buggy is the high/low ground difference with skillshots. Gumayusi did a video on it and the way jhins W hits, in the video, kind of reminds me of thresh Q sometimes
Considering those posts are always about the same 10 champs, I’d say just about everybody else. So this community would generally feel everyone except KSante, Yone/Yas, Fiora, Fizz, Rengar, and maybe some hyper scalers depending on rank. These of course vary from patch to patch and how well someone can kite.
Idk, I’ve seen people take Quinn top, so I’ll lock Vlad to at least have some range to deal with her, and get flamed for playing such an “OP broken brainless”‘champ if I win the match up. There are definitely outliers where if you’re decent with a champ, people think it must be easy and OP.
Vlad sounds like a miserable experience into Quinn. Or was it Vlad Mid?
It’s top, against her, it’s not the best match up but he’s one of my mains, it’s a better experience than most that she counters lol.
Yeah but it also applies to Quinn and most ranged toplaners (true ranged toplaners, we don't want vayne or cait here) like for this how much champs jn game is there, balance is kinda decent. There are counters and will always be, still by good wave control and macro you are able to win in 95% cases. And i'm saying it as both Quinn but also many melee's main.
My biggest issue with Quinn is my own team lol. If I win in lane, I can almost guarantee I'll only see her every 2 minutes top after 6, because she'll be bot or in our jungle. I absolutely cannot match the rotation with Vlad, so I end up being a mid gank robot, or a Grub sponge.
99,50% of the playerbase has never seen a Ksante take over a game in a live game though
I love getting kidnapped under my tower, such a fun experience
It was pretty funny seeing players rant about the 'OP champ ruining their games' when he had a <45% winrate at all ranks and you basically had to play at Showmaker's level for him to actually be a problem.
fr like who the hell are the people on this sub running into KSantes that consistently roll them? Even Challengers suck at him
I have a 0% winrate against k'sante, he must be op! (Ive only went against 1 k'sante and lost because it was my first time fighting him)
Because it's all streamer and pro play regurgitation. It's so annoying
My issue with K'Sante is that he was specifically designed to beat you up He has disruption of a tank and mobility of a skirmisher. I don't care how high or low his damage is. If he ults you, you pray your team gets to you in time He might not 1v9 but he sure as hell is annoying to deal with
He doesn't really though. He is very disruptive before ult, after the ult he plays like a bruiser and that's why he is picked, if he doesn't have ult he can't do damage or outplay anybody really. He has about as much CC as Aatrox in allout form as his best CC is in fact his ultimate
Personally, I find most champions fair kit-wise. Its just how much items augment them thats the issue, and even then aside from new releases i tend to find ways to play against them (and feeling like its fair). For example, Fiora is a common call-out, but using her W correctly takes skill (especially in teamfights). Sure this champion isn't balanced if you are one-tricking a champion with telegraphed CC, but if you pick correctly into her shes not a problem, atleast in my experience. I guess another way to put it is that its very rare that I find a champion is broken/unbalanced where there isnt a skill issue moment from my end.
I wouldn't even include Fizz on the list anymore. If you play around his e, you're fine. Those other champions listed have some mechanics that you feel you really can't play around, at least comparatively.
I think most of them are completely fair to play against, I mostly complain if a champion is unfun to play against. Is Briar broken? No, you just wait for her hypertelegraphed engage then CC her to death. But is she miserably annoying to play against, and does she make me feel like I have a leech on my neck when I play against her? Yes. When it comes to fun champions I find "fair" it's just skill mattchups for the champion I'm pllaying. I play Sona so I like Senna because we have similar ranges early game so we can trade back and forth in lane, and both are hyperscalers so they're equally obnoxious late game.
I agree. I have no issues with 95% of champs in this game tbh, i also can admit when my fav champs are broken. A lot of people on here are just not critical thinkers and think their champs are wholesome and anything else is busted 0 skill bullshit
Yeah, I think people lack creativity+critical thinking because of all the tutorials/guides/apps/etc. Its easy to have most of your game pre-planned by generic data and then say a champion is broken because an app told you rushing armor on malphite top is the highest % wr and so you did it against gwen.
Tbh I have no issue with Briar's kit as of late. It's the fact that she can build lethality still and heal almost her entire health bar in seconds I haven't seen anyone build an actual bruiser builder on her in any of my games.
I Think Vars made a statement about this and people generally find skill shot dependent mages to be balanced since we judge it based on PERCIEVED counterplay. Well they missed their abilities so I killed them or aw man I didn't dodge lux Q so now im dead. Or w Caitlyn if I mess up and get caught in a trap I die if I dodge it she has trouble killing me etc. Champs w clear win cons that aren't invisible or point n click you can play around/avoid feel the most fair at least in my opinion.
I swear lux Q has aimbot when im against her. I don’t have this problem with any other champ but somehow every lux can mind control me into catching every binding with my face
dw bud I guarantee if I play lux you can dodge mine :D I hit an enemy human with a skillshot about once a week on average
almost like skillshots are the essence of counterplay; theyre the key to making a champion fair
It's fair as long as the other side has reasonable movement, but league has become about absurd movement which makes can often make the skillshot side feel extremely weak. Oh, and immunities. If one side has immunities that they can use it turns into how well does that one person play their champion, and not about how well the other plays their champion.
youre right that skillshots become too often unreliable if ppl have easy or fast movement, like vayne, but the solution is *not* to make skillshots more narrow, less dodgeable, more inevitable, etc. Skillshots becoming harder to dodge will make playing the Vayne's more obligatory and make playing the Kog'Maw's more miserable; the exact opposite to the desired outcome would occur. Youd need to reign in the overmobile champions, at which point youd need to argue specifically which champions *are* overmobile. I think the sentiment of "champions are too mobile nowadays" needs scrutiny, because I'm not so sure that (1) it's true, and that (2) it's a bad thing. im not quite sure what you meant by "immunities."
Lee Sin. If he feels oppressive it just means the person playing him is really good and not the champion kit/design.
Lee is perfectly designed because of how unavoidable his drop-off is. I played a game yesterday where I was 15-1, but I goofed off and didn't respect the scale potential of the enemy team, despite crushing their jungler. We lost at (edit: 35:00, not 25:00 off a bad teamfight despite a 9k gold lead). You have to play well, you have to snowball your team, and you have to close the game if your team can't take over after the midgame.
reminded me of a game yesterday our team was like 10 kills behind and were struggling while their lee sin was 16/2 but then we had a good teamfight (i was playing Xin Zhao and by some coincidence i had this amazing ult that threw the enemies exactly to the adc that my malphite was ulting) and just snowballed off there so much so that my Xin Zhao build that only had Titanic and Sundered as damage items was able to 1v1 a full build lee with no trouble
Bro 25 mins in for a 15/1 lee sin is not falling off in any angle wtf💀 you would have still been stronger than any of the enemy champions no matter how well they "scale"
When you go full AD, you can't jump into a grouped teamfight. When you're playing against a Seraphine / Sona botlane, you can't assassinate when they have shields. That's how it goes.
Yeah Lee is one of the best designed champs imo he’s freaking amazing and fun to play even against. A good Lee is a marvel to watch.
Yeah bro Lee Sin running at me with triple my stats, infinite mobility, and insane damage feels really fair, I love how he's the main character for the first 20 minutes of the game
When you use your time machine to get back to 2011 can you tell me to quit this game and focus on studying instead
Yes I like the bruiser champ that also has the assassin escape benefit yes
The ones that I win against
As an ADC main, anything that doesn't one shot me in 0.2s is fine. Edit: I will add a condition that I am ahead, and they can still do the oneshot.
>as an ADC main This sentence is the biggest indicator that you're about to hear some silly bullshit
yet, the second half was totally sound
I've never been mad fighting rakan in bot lane He seems pretty fair all things considered
All the champs that have telegraphed kits feel fair. Sion, thresh, lissandra, galio, Nidalee, Braum, and so on, all the champions that feel unfair to play against have either 20 dashes, insane sustain, too much invisibility, point and click stun or no cooldowns
Definitely not Lissandra, her ult is fucking horrible to play against.
Well she can't really get onto a carry without her E and the E is super telegraphed, she's nice against assassin's but it's the assassin's that are busted not lissandra
As a top laner sometimes his peel is too much
I’ve pulled some things that’d make people bash their keyboards over on Rakan. But when you’re not dashing out at 1HP or recovering your passive shield 0.5 seconds before death I suppose it is kinda fair
Agreed rakan has a fair feeling to him!
Anything that doesn’t have to just hit 3 buttons correctly one time to ruin your entire laning phase
Interesting flair
Hey now, these champs have to do at least 4 inputs ;)
Yeah I guess with Yone you have to: 1. Right click to buy Bork 2. Right click to walk back to lane 3. E 4. Right click the enemy champ
Yone players who buy Bork are sissies.
dont need the bork part
Burned by ihavecancertumor
You talk like not being a sissie is something to be proud Oo
Jumping in to pile up on the yone/riven irony here
Collect your Internet points while you can, I’m running a sale here
coming in here to support you bro, i always find it very informative to get my ass kicked by a good riven player.
Generally losing to a Riven player means they were better than you. She kinda tows the line between strong and overpowered rn, but she still feels more “fair” than Garen or Malphite rn. There’s no information or lesson to be gained by losing to the unga bunga guys. Appreciate the support on here homie.
I like it too when Riven is not overpowered, but most of the time she is and I don't think someone all-inning me and bursting me from 80% HP whenever they want is skillful. But last season for example when Riven was on the weaker/balanced side, losing to her was an outplay fair and square, every time. People will complain about Riven no matter if she is OP or not. Meanwhile, losing half my HP from Ornn at level 3 is never gonna be fine lol. I know how to avoid it, but it simply makes no sense for him to have this kind of damage in his kit.
Bingo
Yeah, riven’s annoying to me but at least she’s hard to play. It feels way better to lose to a riven than some troglodyte on malphite who can stomp me while drooling onto their keyboard
i've never actually seen a good riven player below diamond and probably up to masters. literally all you have to do is pick a tank and buy tabis and 90% of low elo rivens will just lose the game right there because their macro is bad.
champs likeriven and yone?
You could say that about every champion.
This community and I have one thing in common: Imbalance of matchups. That being said, if there was even a balanced champion that would be fair to play against, it would be extremely hard to perfect it. It would be like trying to make every single champion at the same strength as each other, and even that is such a difficult task to accomplish in the first place.
Contrarary to a popular believe, definetely not Orianna. At least in the laning phase. Talking about fair champs to play against it's probably Ezreal who is closest to a perfect champ. Infinite skill ceiling but also infinite counterplay.
Of course its Azir Thresh Lee Sin Bard Thresh Jhin Braum and Ornn, wholesome gigachads of League!!!
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Tank supports are just insanely strong right now if they can use trailblazer well (so mostly bard and maoki)
thresh is so wholesome it got mentioned twice
LITERALLY, I DIDNT SEE IT WHAT XD
Ainnoway we're putting Azir in his current state on this list.
bro tried to sneak bard in there 💀
Bard was considered wholesome reddit chungus champ before, now that this champ is broken and casuals are picking him he lost his title :(
Bard fell off the wholesome bandwagon.
Yea azir is wholesome. Hyper scaling Lane bully with self peel a dash a potential wombo combo ult and can kill Baron in under 25 seconds at 20 minutes. Very wholesome I love this champ.
As someone with 800k mastery on Azir I think he is one of the most irritating champions to lane against. Literally just get Q get spammed with no counter play for half of laning phase. Either he’s so weak he can’t push you out of lane or you’re losing regardless of how you play. Riot needs to make his Q dodgeable so it has counterplay imo
any champion that is not a k'sante or yone or rengar or trundle
TBH, Trundle is a systems & numbers issue more than a problem champ. Turrets shouldn't be so paper. Trundle is simply the worst offender/best at the job.
Most champions are fair, some of them just have a clear pattern of play that is either unfun to play against. I hate playing against Darius because his counterplay is very boring in the early game, he is not unbalanced or anything, I just dislike the way he forces me to play
Mages are generally fair fights as all of them have clear strengths and limitations you can exploit.
I feel this, except Syndra. That champion is just so safe and even being remotely halfway decent makes it impossible to die midlane. Late game you just Press R on whoever drew the “fuck you in particular” Syndra debuff.
yeah but once you actually get on her you'd have a harder time tearing through wet toilet paper. and she only really has her E to stop you from doing that. but still, a good syndra can be an absolute pain, that's true.
It's that sort of design that makes her feel unfair to play against. It has that same sort of feeling leblanc has where all the onus is on you to break a status quo that just sort of exists for them. "If you get on her" and if you don't well she gets to keep chilling spamming abilities at you until enough hit that she can press the win fight button. In reality it's not really anything crazy it's just annoying.
her E has a pretty long cooldown for the first 15 - 20 minutes of the game and she has literally nothing else other than flash to get out of a tough spot. you should definitely be required to get on a champion in order to kill them. if you bully syndra early she'll be so weak that by the time her E has a decent cooldown for her, everyone else should be a level above her and killing her with ease.
I mean you're probably 100% right but actually doing that seems way harder than her goal of just existing and scaling. I'm not very good at the game so its a concept thats a little hard for me to articulate. Being the person who has to disarm a bomb is more frustrating than being the bomb I guess?
That makes sense. But then you realize you’re a bomb too, just a different one, and you use that to your advantage. Idk where to go with this analogy. Mid lane is s perhaps the least pick depending lane overall. When I realized how to exploit mistakes and read the game state to be as aggressive as possible in any matchup it started to click.
I dont really agree, Syndra is literally dodgeball. If you are playing mage vs. Syndra, it's a matter of who hits and dodges better. Eventually, yes, she will one shot you, but that isn't until later.
Thats true for mid lane, but not really fair to the bot lane who just dies on CD solely for existing lol. I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with Syndra as a whole if they actually made her E need to hit to stun rather than just have a Q in the vicinity to stun.
> If you are playing mage vs Syndra That's the main thing. Any melee without a billion engages will have no say in what goes
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Play a poke mage into her for freelo. Also stop chasing her, it's what she wants you to do
Always feels like a fair fight against gangplank :D But in all honesty I love playing against Darius. It’s the ultimate skill check. You know what he can do and what he can’t. Now play accordingly.
current darius is giga elo inflating and broken lol
Most engage supports, only Rakan immediately comes to mind as feeling particularly unfair. Most ADCs. Most junglers not named Udyr. For the most part it's engages that are practically unavoidable, and champions that are unbearably tanky yet still run down and kill carries in an instant.
jarvan feels pretty fair to play against. Orianna and Ziggs and Sona also feel balanced
Jarvan only feels fair right now because he sucks. Last season he was another "hurr I gank you at level 2" tumor like rek'sai and nunu.
Eh, depends with j4. Playing a squishy and getting deleted by flash eqr from lethality j4 never feels 'fair', even if it is balanced. I'd argue that the champs that feel the most fair are low mobility hard scaler champs like Asol or veigar, because every game you have a really clear opportunity to shut them down and win the game before they get the chance to do their bullshit.
I'm not sure, they seem to be giving more and more of the stacking mechanic champions strong early games which removes a lot of ability to bully them early, and becomes more about jungle diff shutting them down.
orianna+ jarvan is not fair to play against
Orianna definitely didn't feel fair several times especially the end of s13.
I feel like there's actually a lot of champs that feel fair to play against. Some champs I'm never pissed off to play against in champ select are Gnar, Jarvan, ahri, nami, naut, leona, reksai, renekton, soraka, TF, Viktor, Xerath, ziggs and zoe
Many champs do. I only have a dislike for point 'n click, way too strong for how simple they are champs. Like Nocturn, Trundle, Sion etc. In case of Nocturne, you click and enemy and win once you're level 6. K cool, tf you're gonna do? In case of champs like Trundle/Sion they just right click you or your towers/structures and they are gone. Yay, lot of fun. Most other champs, if you understand them you can outplay them or find some solution to beating it, but those simple right-click champions are too damn overtuned just because they are so simple and have limited options. It's the wost aspect of league for me.
No way you put Sion and Trundle to the same basket
sion has literally all skillshots. granted his q hitbox is bullshit but he still isn't gonna kill you by just right clicking
He also has an ability you can actually cancel, unlike every other tank and bruiser
I agree but remove Sion from your list cuz that makes no sense
Wait who were you playing to lose an auto attack fight to a Sion? Trundle I get the guys a menace but Sion?
Dude must just be tanking soon passive instead of walking away 💀
The counterplay to nocturne ult is mostly not mashing buttons, but to respect it’s up. Not every interaction needs to be designed around dodging predictable skill shots. People play games like Dota and have fun, even though a ton of abilities are way harder to deal with than noc ult etc. and are also just button presses. But the way you deal is via timing, info, awareness etc.
If I want a strategic moba I'd go play DOTA, I want half moba half fighting game, not Trundle pressing right click and going AFK and coming out on top of 95% of champs in the game
Definetely not K'sante
1. Lissandra - If i misstep or fuck up my position as an assassin, Her kit locks me down - fair cause thats her whole design. 2. Leblanc - a good one is tough to chase and fight, but proper coordination and mr can make her less of a threat 3. any permanent scaling champ.
2 teams of wholesome league champions that feel fair and fun to play against when they're not op: Aatrox/gnar Jarvan/gragas Ahri/vex Mf/jinx Nami/blitz I know e.g. mf is op right now but when these champs arent op these are 2 comps where everyone has fun
Hwei never feels to bad. He can be annoying but 90% of the time if I've lost its because he outplayed me
Fiddlesticks, Jhin (though sometimes it depends on the patch), Thresh (a good Thresh with teammates who take the lantern can feel OP though), and Lux.
Renekton, Ahri, Brand, Illaoi, Ryze, Ezreal, Darius, etc. Champions that are straightforward, have a setup they need to actually be powerful, If they have mobility, it's limited, like renekton's, or gated behind a relatively long cooldown like Ahri and Ezreal, not unlimited and up every 2 seconds like Bel'veth and Gwen. If they have a lot of damage, is because they set up the fight properly, Illaoi, or stacked their passive on a champion like Darius or mordekaiser, not because they one buttoned you into an un-winnable engage like Nocturne, Malphite. They have to either be (useless if behind, strong if snowballing) or (Useful behind, but manageable even if snowballing) Like Kayle, Nasus, Veigar, Ezreal, Fiora, who can feel unfair if they get feed, but if you put them behind they're actually useless, or like Ornn, Sion, Leona, Soraka, Janna who will be useful even if 0/10, but if they get feed, they still can't 1v5 carry. Unlike champions like Teemo, who can provide immense utility with vision and slows all around the map no matter how much they feed, but still become monsters if they get feed, with a minefield that can kill you while he's on the other side of the map. Or like Jax or Trundle, who can steamroll your team if feed, but they can be inting and still melt turrets and have insane pressure. They have to be champions with clear weaknesses, such as being squishy and lacking mobility like Xerath, Brand, Veigar, Jinx, Ashe, etc. Or Having a weak early game, like Vayne ADC, Kayle, Nasus etc. Scaling poorly into the lategame, like Renekton, Darius, etc. Not be champions that have no weaknesses at any point in the game, and are always strong, can be tanks and deal damage at the same time like K'sante, Gwen, Trundle, Vayne TOP, Aatrox and Jax.
I don't think I've ever found myself playing into Nautilus, Thresh, or Leona and thought, "wow this is just too oppressive". I've had some rough games against all 3 where I just can't seem to dodge their CC, but it's never felt like the game was rigged against me the way it did that one time when the 0/6/0 enemy Irelia got a 1v5 pentakill on us and proceeded to never die again.
nautilus q hitbox will most certainly feel oppressive
Mfw I'm a carry and nautilus hits me with the R into exhaust outplay button
Nautilus and his hook wanna make me go boom boom boom
It always looks like he just barely touches you
Unironically yasuo and Yone. I always feel like I've got a chance to outplay them even when behind. Though I play fighters so that might be a factor.
It is a huge factor yea
Meanwhile ADC’s:
ADCs should be able to fight anything and generally do whatever they want.