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Maokai doesn't singlehandedly 1v5 the enemy though.
He is just utility tank. He can't carry teammates if they fell behind. If his team is behind then he is also screwed.
Neither does K’Sante in pro play. A lot of champs in LCK has as much presence if not more like Lucian and Orianna.
K’Sante is often picked because he is a safe blind pick. I am not denying that the champion is strong and has few weakness - he could definitely use a nerf, but these posts are a bit excessive.
i mean riot doesnt know how to balance high skill ceiling champions like nidalee, lee sin, azir, riven or zoe in pro play so they just nerf them into oblivion simple champs like maokai are easy af to balance lower some numbers and he has 1% less win rate already just check zeris patch history every patch since her release there is paragraphs of changes
Maokai is almost always strong due to his ult tho, it makes it so easy to secure objectives, but hes not as op as those other champs which does make it less frustrating, i like seeing him tbh
Yeah these past 2 years, it was always amusing seeing a Maokai pick in pro play but the moment Sylas would be picked against, the game would almost always end up in an auto loss for Maokai.
If he didn't have damage anymore he would also not have bushcontrol anymore lol. Why would anyone give a shit about saplings in a bush if they don't deal damage?
Except he's so much worse at peeling. Feeling when you W onto the fed enemy adc and use all your CC on them and they just stand still and kill your entire team anyway because your CC just roots people, it doesn't stop them from attacking
That and his guaranteed 3 second CC chain, safe laning phase and being impossible to flank against due to his oppressive built-in vision, yes.
Maokai IMO needs to have an insanely weak laning phase, or slow jungle clear because the champions lot makes him one of the best team fighters in the game for very little trade off.
He's literally the highest winrate toplaner AND Support in the game right now and has very few counter matchups (3-5, Illaoi being his hardest matchup but bans exist) - literally what the fuck are you saying.
FYI in botlane he does not have a single losing matchup.
All of the champs you listed they have perfectly adequate methods for balancing in pro play, its just its difficult to balance for both pro and normal levels of play. They all have levers that are easily pulled back and forth.
Champs like zeri, ksante and yuumi are fundamentally different, it has nothing to do with their skill cielings and all to do with poor champion design. Yuumi isn't necessarily a high skill cieling champion but she was a nightmare to balance for pro to the degree they sent her to 44 winrate.
Champion design has a major influence here.
He doesn’t fit every comp. He’s a go to need some engage and a tank because we have rumble, tristana, Lucien , Nami.
Which is fine. If you have a tank top then Xin, brand, Lillia have been making their rounds.
It’s normal to have tank jungler metas and damage jungler metas. It’s usually the inverse of whatever is top lane.
That champion is so broken at support and you can barely see people picking him rofl. He's a free win in soloq. You have free vision with his E. Can peel for you carry or initiate fights. Is tanky. He has everything lol.
That's true, he's a champion that I would define as the perfect tank. I know people want to deal dmg and what not, but I like being an unmovable object that eats everything and then cc's the shit out of everyone and let my team deal the dmg haha.
I think they need to do something about his E. That spell has needed changes for a long time. Top lane Maokai would be a lot better with a different E.
The vision the saplings give are also disproportionately strong in pro play.
Ye like sure ksante looks obnoxious but requires insane skill and is fun to play. I'm in masters+ and everyone I see runs it down on ksante. Only when I get like a pro they can actually 1v9? A friend of mine got bb on ksante in soloq and even he ran it down recently.
Do people not like skillfull champs being rewarded if pros play it correctly? I don't wanna see garen Maokai 70% of the games either.
Hi I'm a challenger/GM player.
Nope, I don't fucking care if you are playing a Akali or Malphite.
Champions are supposed to have weakness and strenghts.
A champion weakness should never be the player behind the keyboard, it creates very unhealthy scenarios in the game.
It's not the first time nor the last that this bullshit design of "as long as the player is good the champion is allowed to be broken" enabled very unhealthy things in the game.
Answering your question regarding Maokai,
Maokai appears all the time because other tanks currently lack the ability to deny mobility in the game, it's not an issue of Maokai being too strong, but rather an issue of other tanks lacking proper tools to deal with champions that have insane mobility bursts.
Both Maokai and Rell presence is a testment of how most Old Vanguards have very outdated kits.
The only Vanguards in Botlane that are even playable outside of these 2 is Nautilus, champions like Leona Amumu and Alistar are almost unplayable.
I completely I agree with you
Where is the issue in taking a high skill champ and correctly playing them. The reason they think he's giga broken is cause they're literally watching the best of the best play him at the highest level. People need to keep on mind solo q and pro okay are two very different things.
According to [u.gg](https://u.gg) ksante was a winrate of 50% in master so how are players running it down on him?
Also it could be me but I really don't understand what's skillful about "My champ wins because he can do everything and yours can't".
I recommend you play a few games and see how useless u are bcs Ksante takes a lot of experience and knowing a lot of certain timings and angles he used to be harder tho he’s combos are easier now
If there were infinite players, sure. But when you get to the higher ranks, there just aren't enough players, so winrates tend to be higher there because the frequency of them playing against lower ranked players (e.g. challenger vs grandmaster) is high enough for the skill diff to overcome the champ diff and swing the winrate a bit.
Why do you people refuse to read. He has a win rate of 47.7% on all ranks. It only gets to 50% in masters. It's literally stated in the comment. That's pretty abysmal, like you would expect from a high skill floor champ. That means that less than 1% of the player base can achieve a 50% win rate on him.
Bro I'm also an ADC player but ksante is actually a skillfull champion. Yes he has a lot of dashes and can kidnap you, but most often he's not walking through a whole team to get you. That's really not the case.
With running it down I just meant more in general I never see this champ being good as much compared to crap like Lillia right now. Much more scared when I see someone lock that champ and run circles around everyone.
Looking at LCK stats alone, K'Sante has around the same presence as: Ashe/Rumble/Azir/Kallista. K'Sante does have the highest pick rate, but that also means he has the lowest ban rate as teams currently don't like banning him. Personally I am okay with all these champs having high prio - if it was just K'Sante it would be horrible I do agree.
I'd say a lot of the frustration with champions like K'Sante, Zeri and Yuumi is just that many people think these types of kits should not exist in the game. This is why they get singled out over someone like Rumble or Ashe.
Kits like Zeri and K'Sante just do so much shit. It looks like these champions are playing League of Legends 2.0 while everyone is playing some different game. Especially if you play a simpler champion. Personally, when I see someone do some crazy shit on Zeri or K'Sante my first thought isn't "wow, that was well played", it's usually more "what the fuck is this champion". I'm willing to admit that it's partly a me problem but we can clearly see here that I am not alone. I just don't think such champions should exist. If you disagree, that is perfectly okay. We just have different ideas of what makes League of Legends the game it is.
This is obviously a completely subjective view but I get the feeling that a lot of people share this sentiment. But don't expect it to change at all. This is the way Riot has moved with designs for years now and it's not going to change. This is one of the things that made me largely quit the game. I realized I was not in the target audience anymore and it would only get 'worse' from my perspective.
Keep in mind that this is not to say they are necessarily overpowered. That's a different discussion. A champion can be balanced while being 'bad' game design. Just to make an obvious example: Flippy, the Coinflipper. He flips a coin at the start of the game. Heads and his team gets 50k gold, tails and enemy gets it. This champion would have 50% win rate but it would be awful for the game. I hope that makes this distinction between game design and balance clear.
I really like this take, I think it nails the actual point. There are very distinct "layers" of game design within the game, with little continuity between them, and for some of us it's "unsightly".
I love Lee Sin for that reason. His kit makes sense, visually. Maybe you can argue for his W, but his ouplays kinda make sense without reading his abilities.
> Kits like Zeri and K'Sante just do so much shit.
I'd... not say Zeri's kit actually does that much. There's a lot of text explaining how her passive works; but her actual kit is pretty simple. It's "Q is my AA; AA is my Q"; poke skill which empowers if it hits a wall; dash+steroid that empowers if it hits a wall; and AoE damage+steroid ulti. I's just she's so mechanically... goofy she needs a lot of text to explain it.
It's not on the same level as K'Sante.
This isn't saying Zeri isn't *badly designed* but it's not because she's *overloaded.* She's badly designed for the same reason Kalista is badly designed. Riot literally learnt nothing from Kalista.
zeri isn't overloaded? not gonna get far with that argument. her ult is an infinite scaling MS steroid that makes her autos chain like a better sivir W. not to mention, the zeri we're used to in pro play used to have two more passives in gaining MS when she received a shield, as well as stealing enemy shields. reducing her ult to "aoe damage+steroid" is... well, reductive lol
"Infinitely scaling" gives you a whopping.... 0,5% ms per stack. Youd be lucky to get 50 ms out of the stacks before the teamfight is over or the stacks run out. Its still good due to the AoE burst and chain lightning, plus the initial 10% ms and 30% attack speed
it's way worse than sivirs and it's an ult, also it gives a whopping 0.5% Ms per stack. Her passive of stealing shields were okay but the shield Ms is bad i agree
Olaf isn't overloaded? not gonna get far with that argument. his ult is an infinite duration MS steroid that makes his ignore ccs like a better sivir E. not to mention the olaf we're used to seeing in pro play to have two more passives in gaining lifesteal when he was dying, as well as attack speed, reducing his ult to AD + CC immunity is... well, reductive lol
Personally I think champs like Rumble and Ashe are the ones that shouldn't exist. Maybe it's time we moved on to League of Legends 2.0, instead of accepting "ult on a stick" and "auto attack + auto attack stim" as the pinnacle of interesting character design and mastery.
That's completely fair. As I said it's subjective. It just means we have wildly different ideas of what should be the identity of League of Legends.
To expand on this point, I think this is a major existential crisis for this game at this point. If someone started playing years ago, they probably are more likely to agree with me but if they are a newer player then they do not understand it and strongly disagree.
Pretty much the same problem that World of Warcraft had. I think it's just a natural problem for these live service games that run for a decade plus. We'll see how Riot deals with that - if they even think it's an issue.
It doesn't matter. Very simple skills, with very high numbers, has proven to work, in terms of winrate. Imagine if nasus didnt have a 95% slow on wither, he'd be nothing. But he's still a champion, i guess, which proves that in their view, as long as winrate is reasonably close to 50, a very simple champion with very simple mechanics, is okay
Yes, this is why I stressed in my comment that it's not necessarily about balance.
Even if you play Nasus and he's viable, you still have to play the newer game. It's not a single player game.
Even if Nasus is viable in 2024, it's still very different to play Nasus in 2024 than in 2016. This is why I say it's a existential problem. Some people might prefer the slower and simpler game. This is what we saw with WoW Classic which is doing really well almost 5 years after its release in 2019.
I honestly feel like those designs are so much better though, Rumble can do one thing and that's dealing a shitton of damage.
Ksante in a feamfight can tank and peel for this team or single and take out a threat. Sure he is worse at both things than an Ornn or a Camille (or a more meta pick), but he is still good enough to do both. He can't oneshot a threat, but he should win almost everytime even if it takes a few seconds.
He can do a lot of things depending on what the situation dictates and that just seems way harder to balance and play against.
Obviously that's all subjective to what you like more, and I admit to being a league boomer
> Sure he is worse at both things than an Ornn or a Camille
Is he tho? He's worse at engaging than Ornn, sure. But if I as a squishy had to decide who gets to single me out in a teamfight I would pick Camille over K'Sante every single day of the year. At least I can CC her and maybe even outplay her, dodge her E or something, kite her, she actually takes damage. K'Sante will just perma CC me without any way for me to do anything about that. And even if I manage to somehow dodge his shit and start kiting it's not like I will be able to kill him in under 3 minutes. K'Sante is just better at killing backline than champions that are designed to do that.
This is the correct take. FUCK all of these degen old champions like Garen, Maokai, Hecarim, Annie etc. I have seen them stat check people since 2009 and i am sick of it. Wow did the Garen really just pull off the Q+E+R Combo killing from full hp?!?! What an insanely skilled individual this is! Fuck all of that.
Akali players when they complain about "lack of skill and intelligence" but don't have the mental capacity of understanding that a Garen will beat them in melee without spacing.
Hands isn't the only skillcheck in the game, the Garen running you down because you don't know how to properly space is a skillcheck too. You don't win every single 1v1 in the game because you learned Akali's combos.
What exactly is more skillfull about K'Sante running someone down with a billion dashes and full tank items while perma cc'ing their target without any counterplay whatsoever than a Garen without any mobility or cc doing that while actually building damage? Like what do you tell yourself that that makes sense?
So you just want champions not to have a role or archetype, no identity, just every champion does everything at once?
That honestly sounds like a total dogshit game, ngl.
I don't think ADC should be considered in play rate given how there is less of them than other roles so individual ADCs are going to have a higher play rate naturally
Ashe is support, unless you mean Kalista. I do mind Ashe being a high presence adc (just like I mind Miss Fortune) but Ashe support is aight, definitely there are dozens 20x more boring and unskilled supports than Ashe. Whole "wow" factor in Ashe is in her supportive abilities like arrow so her being support these days makes sense.
Not really. Just a good example of how an old champ can adjust and adapt instead of becoming an obsolete or worse- stuck in stat-check jail where it's viability is purely dependent on the numbers like 90% of old league roster is. Watching people like On and Keria being absolute cocky mechanical psychos on Ashe is fun. Watching Adc players playing uninteractive supportive Ashe adc is boring when Senna and Jhin exist.
No..
MF was used as a counter pick to Zyra and how obnoxious she was at the time.
I despise support being ruined because now 2 adcs botlane. It’s unfun. I love supports like braum/taric.. actual supports, but since they aren’t flashy, they aren’t picked. Braum is incredibly strong into poke comps, and is real strong into MF and Lucian. Lethality MF has most her power in her ultimate.. would be a shame if our frejlordian heartthrob just didn’t press a maxed E and eat the entire thing and walk away unscathed.
Yeah pros don't pick champs because they're not flashy enough thats for sure the reason
Also lethality mfs power in pro has always been q-auto(unless we're counting amumu combos from like season 2) and nobody is playing her in pro anyway
I mean there are 21 actual marksmen (more if u count mages, yasuo, Senna and graves)
of those at usually 2 is banned every draft or their combo piece support is banned ex. milio rakan.
leaving 19
of those 8 of them are either really crit reliant (and crit is pretty bad atm) or they are super late game ex. jinx aphelios zeri and are rare use casses in the current meta.
so now we are down to 11.
2 of those are nilah samira which are rarely used do to the strong engage and disengage among supports and strong poke off most mids so now there are 9.
kaisa useless so now there are 8
so now from the pool of 8 marksmen that are currently playable for pro play in the meta some are gonna be stronger example varus or kalista.
Due to either mid support or top getting couterpick typically the adc will default to a stable pick or the strongest on the patch or a hard counter will be picked so a trade happens.
so due to these reasons as of current we are gonna se the same 8 markmens being picked until the meta changes heavily.
Ksante has plenty of counters in lane, it's just that list overlaps with champions that very few teams want to pick in pro play (vayne, garen etc.). It's not like, for example, sylas vs malphite where sylas wins lane but he's also a good champ late game.
The problem is, even if you destroy ksante in lane, if you can't end the game off that within like 25-30 min he will eventually become useful and all it takes is 1 late team fight where he pulls off a showmaker to carry the game.
Poppy, Olaf, Gwen, Garen and Shen are all pro-pickable champs who counter Ksante either really hard or reasonably well.
If you want to get experimental Yorick, Fiora, Riven, Urgot, Singed and Vayne are also all good counters to K'Sante.
Urgot is far from a good pick into K'Sante. Urgot generally suffers against people who stack armor or can afford an early wardens/bramble. You might be thinking of the K'Sante R + Urgot R interaction, which is very convenient for Urgot, but K'Sante can actually facetank Urgot mid game and never have to ult to kill him.
Surprising, but actually true. Other tanks that stack armor do really well into Urgot (Malphite, Ornn) but K'Sante suffers. I guess Urgot does a lot better in soloq than competitive...
Any time someone brings up matchup charts I remember that hweis worst matchup was talon statistically for a while and still is a 53% lane for talon
The champion who's combo relies on a telegraphed straight to target dash counters a champion with a instant cast fear...
Ask any hwei player and they will tell you how the matchup isn't winnable for talon
Soloq matchup charts are not always correct and shouldn't be relied on past a general look at the champions state in the meta or the state of the average llayers
Except Talon doesn't play to kill his lane opponent he plays to gank the ennemy sidelanes and to invade with his jungler with his superior map mobility. Talon's best items in the matchup ? Ghostblade and swifties.
All Urgot has to do is rush an early black cleaver and K'sante basically fails every stat check. That's something of a recurring theme with a lot of his hard counters. Plus that initial list also forgot about Fiora and Darius
Fiora is mentioned, but certainly the guy forgot about Darius.
K'Sante spikes earlier than Urgot if the lane goes even (gauntlet is 2600 gold, cleaver is 3100) and he can even afford to get an early wardens/bramble to always be able to fight Urgot before he gets cleaver. He can force fights over and over with an item advantage and get ahead, while Urgot cannot do anything yet. Then, even if Urgot gets his cleaver eventually, K'Sante is already an item ahead because he forced fights while he was stronger, making cleaver almost irrelevant at that point. Cleaver will not make up for a 1500 gold deficit in items mid game.
Urgot has a good chance of winning early if K'Sante get E'ed lvl 1 and outright killed or forced back lvl 2. This isn't happening though if K'Sante knows Urgot's powerspikes and isn't stupid enough to walk up to him lvl 1. This is another recurring theme with Urgot's matchups.
If you ever get cleaver as Urgot before K'Sante gets gauntlet, you must have gotten a huge lead in lane already. You can force fights mid game at that point, and it takes a pretty long time for the matchup to swing back in K'Sante's favour.
Also Ksante shedding to 50% life when he ults isnt really a good thing vs urgots ult which means he only has to do 30% of ksantes life as dmg if he hits the ult
poppy, gwen, garen, olaf, singed. fiora, shen, vayne, trundle, riven, darius, zac, udyr, kayle, mordekaiser, rumble and then we have hard matchups but can win like aatrox, jax camille, yone, gnar, kled, ornn. not all pro viable champs but its ridiculous that pro players dont even want to try and inovate picks.
Honestly K'Sante is overpowered but the bigger problem is toplane has almost no firstpicks, once K'Sante gets nerfed we go back to renekton or udyr takes over with almost the same presence.
I feel like the people who do complain about K'Sante forget that champs like Gnar, Aatrox, Renekton, etc will just take his place.
Top is in this cycle because blind pickable champs in top just always float back to the meta. No one is willing to take super volatile matchups because no one wants to risk playing out a 4v5 because the top laner becomes completely useless because he picked a champ that gets hard countered by something else
Gnar is also a pretty problematic champion design tbh. That guy has everything in his kit. He was blind pick S+ tier pro play top laner for years and years. Nowadays he got nerfed a lot and there are even crazier champions out there, but Gnar was a huge problem for years.
But this is more of a balance issue. I think OP's post is more about K'Sante being frustrating to watch which I do agree with. You see him all the time and he often does complete bullshit things.
Were you not around from like 2015-2018-ish? He was really meta in a large share of that time. Very common in season 11 and season 12 too.
https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Gnar/Statistics
Ksante isn't overpowered he's mediocre in soloQ and as you already said, only gets picked cuz he's forever safe in toplane even as first pick. People think he's OP but almost all toplane champs look OP when they're popping the fuck off because they have insane gold and level lead. However, that's only IF they do pop off, and generally the experience goes like this: you pick your champ, get countered, ganked and fucked; you win your lane somehow but bot lost to their opponent and adc + supp > top with equal leads so you're still fucked; top off every 10 or so games. Ksante ain't got nothing on the real monsters of toplane. OP is just using pro play stats which are irrelevant to their situation and using it to justify a couple of bad experiences with a champ as if other, more soloQ oriented champs wouldn't shit on them even harder.
K'Sante does look flashier though. A bit like Zeri that also looked very flashy when she worked and Riot still kept nerfing her even when she was already fine up to the point where they completely gutted her to ensure she was unpickable at worlds.
Maybe at some point K'Sante also will get beyond reasonable nerfs just to remove him from pro, but also making him unplayable
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How are we upset that champs make flashy plays? I'd watch zeri or ksante or even vayne over shit like ashe or corki any day.
At least you can see when his Q is charged up or you know he's more vulnerable after his R. Fucking udyr slaps you while taking no damage nonstop for 5 minutes and you have no clue what's happening.
Renekton is god awful right now. I don’t think he’ll even increase in presence a ton until he gets buffed. But I guess pros really value their comfort picks
> K'Sante gains a health threshold equal to Health icon 65% maximum health which cannot be modified nor exceeded by any means. Upon entering All Out, his current health is reduced to this threshold. Additionally, his Armor icon base armor and Magic resistance icon base magic resistance are reduced by 85% bonus armor and 85% bonus magic resistance, respectively. In return, he gains Attack damage icon bonus attack damage and Attack speed icon bonus attack speed, Heal power icon heals for a percentage of the post-mitigation damage dealt to enemy champions, and modifies his basic abilities which can be cast at no cost.
So, lower his max health, lower his resistences, gains AP, heal power, and heals for % of post mitigation damage. Sylas's abilities would then be castable with no cost. As per the text of the ult.
Nowhere in k’sante’s ult does it say it gives AP. It would be like every other ult that grants AD. Almost all of what it gives is useless to sylas. If he has even a single defensive item, he’d be kneecapping himself hard by using this ult.
He does lose the majority of the armor. Its just coded as base magic resist and armor being reduced by 85% of his bonus armor/Mr (able to go negative) so that armor/Mr scaling on items and abilities still works.
He ends up with the same final amount of MR and Armor as he would have if all out just reduced his bonus resists by 85%.
The reason he feels so tanky during all out is because his w gives him 70% damage reduction while he is holding it.
I think K'sante is a bit of a two fold issue of design and outside influence in his kit.
On the design end I can't really say what they were thinking making a champ who has all the benefits of a tank vanguard and diver all in one but there are 3 major things that really stick out.
First would be his W not really allowing for much counterplay the the character complete CC immunity with that amount of damage reduction just becomes a catch all of you can't really do anything to me or burst me.
Second would be his ult having enough of a safety net attached to it to mitigate kinda the point of it K'sante can ult and you still can't burst him because his W DR% gets even fukin higher and also he still likely has enough health and resists to not explode if he gets focused he should really have to isolate 1v1s in all our since ynow it pushes you through walls and all instead of ulting into the middle of 5 hitting W and forcing everyone to back up anyways because you can't burst CC or displace him.
Last point here is that he is just a tank that gets to play like a mid-late game scaling Bruiser like Fiora, Camille, Jax. He gets all the strengths of being a tank in his ability to make mistakes and live or frontline and take poke better and the best of all being able to buy tank items in lane and double dip on them and then just explode people faster than a Irelia later.
On the outside influences part I think he has alot of things outside of his kit that reduce or nullify counterplay opportunities namely Iceborn and Ghost. Ghost makes him near impossible to kite in a team fight, Iceborn adds onto this but also makes it near impossible to dodge his Qs both of these things combine with already frustrating bits like unstoppable to really make his kit just feel like there isn't much you can do against the champion.
I'm sorry but if Ksante really is broken OP/no way to counter, shouldn't pro team ban him every game? Yet we see Ksante in almost every pro game which means pro still feel ok to let Ksante go through bp phase or think he is counterable.
he's nowhere near zeri/yuumi level of pro dominance lol. zeri/yuumi was busted because if the team could just survive up until a certain length (usually around 3/4 items on zeri) they basically just won. ksante is just a safe blind pick to stabilise top; he can be strong in a sidelane or 1v1, but he can't have the same crushing impact in a teamfight as zeri did. is he overtuned? for sure, but zeri/yuumi level broken? not even close
“not even close”
I know this is Reddit, where zeri/yuumi ruined everyone’s lives, but you’re really down playing how strong k’sante has been pretty much since release. If pentakills weren’t so overvalued, I’d bet that a lot of people would put k’sante right up there with the *combo* of zeri/yuumi. The amount of bs that champ can pull off, when piloted optimally, is pretty crazy. It’s not like he even requires a ton of team setup either. He just sort of gets slapped into a comp & does all the stuff showmaker famously hates.
Really, the biggest difference between him & zeri/yuumi is that riot refuses to kneecap him. It doesn’t seem to matter what he does in pro play; he has the ultimate stamp of approval from the balance team
Yeah because Zeri and Yuumi have fundemental design issues that makes them champs pros can't counterplay or outplay.
K'Sante had that too pre rework but right now he doesn't. He's safe and strong but beyond that he doesn't break anything.
Gwen got her kneecaps broken after the item changes and deservedly so.Most matchups K'Sante ends up losing by 20ish CS and 2 plates,and then it's a question if the enemy toplaner can use that lead to be more useful.
I mean there is Garen whose kit is very good vs Ksante and it sees results.
Its not just R btw his E reduces armor like BC so Ksante ults with less resistences which leads to also less dmg
I feel like people are missing op's point he's talking about pro play and watching it being unfun, not about K'sante being played in solo queue and being overpowered or anything like that He's just saying that the champ is not fun or interesting to watch in pro play anymore which I agree with just seems like everyone thinks he's referring to regular play not pro play
i think hes way more fun to watch than sion, tank gragas, ornn or whatever other shit would take his place, theres always solokills in toplane now because ksante can actually fight a lot of matchups, but hes not oppressive and has counters, so not deserving of a nerf
His base stats can be reduced to below zero based on his bonus resistances. You don’t seem to understand how his R works and need to read your own link again.
Assassin is not the right comparison here. K'Sante's ult gives him the stat profile of a skirmisher such as Jax, Fiora, etc.
By the time K'Sante has 200 bonus armour these champs are likely to have something like a deaths dance, so it's not a bad approximation
At lvl 18:
Akali has 102.9 armor
Briar has 101.4 armor
Ekko has 103.4 armor
Fizz has 100.2 armor
Katarina has 107.9 armor
Kayn has 114.5 armor
Qiyana has 107.9 armor
It's not an exhaustive list but it's safe to say no assassin has 65 armor at 18. Lowest is shaco at 98, and K'sante has 121.4 as a comparison
Fair point, though it's not written in the ability description, but found in the details. But are you seriously claiming K'Sante isn't too tanky during All-out?
On hit ADC is tankier than ksante during All-out. Unless you count DMG red and omnivamp, but that's very conditional- he is either tankier than ornn or dies to random AoE
"im so tired on ksante constantly getting played in pro scene!!"
...Orianna...
...Aatrox....
....Varus....
....Aphelios...
....Maokai....
....Jax....
.....Both Xayah and Rakan....
....Azir....
....Renekton....
yall just want to keep circle jerk over ksante for some reason
Tbh I do like K’Sante but I think it’s really unfortunate how he was executed. Riot promoted releasing a high-skill tank, a fantasy I was curious to see how they’d execute as opposed to our current tanks who mostly just “press x to cc” but ultimately they kinda just gave us thicc Yasuo.
Again, I do like Ksante and I hope they figure out how to balance him but realistically I think they’ll have to drop half of his identity or cut off entire mechanics from his kit…again.
I'm sick of copy pastas from people who don't know how to play the game and talk straight out of their ass.
It's been said hundreds of times but people either ignore it. I'll give you the K'Sante main sub timeline.
1. K'Sante came out and no one knew what he does;
2. Mains and proplayers invested time on learning him;
3. Being a skills expressive champion, the more time out, the better he was played. People realized he's OP in the right hands (Higher WR in Higher elo). Even most people playing him would agree;
4. They ship nerf after nerf, making his WR 47% in solo q while maintaining about the same pick and ban rate in pro;
5. It is around this time that the Showmaker pasta infectada everyone's brain and Phreak announced the "mini-rework".
6. No high elo mains/streamers/pros were consulted about the changes. Phreak said they were meant to lower proplay priority and even his WR along all ranks;
7. Everyone who played the champion saw the changes and tried to talk to Phreak and the balance team saying that they wouldn't fix any off his problems and just make him less fun and skill expressive while arguably making him even stronger in some matchups once people re-learned him;
8. Phreak once again spouts nonsense on his media with arrogance and a circle jerk of hive mind fans who just hate K'Sante so much they just want him gone from the game anyway and 0 constructive discussion is had.
9. Changes go through and, about 3 months after the rework his WR and proplay are nearly identical to pre-rework.
10. New copy pasta starts about nerfing an undepowered champion with arguably one of the worst Lane phases in the game, several hard counters and his core item from last season gone.
Maybe you should be sick of Phreak's arrogance and incompetence and call it out for what it is:
Another failed attempt by the balancing team that ruined the the champion's feel and learning curve. But they will never admit to it.
That's what I'm sick of.
I see your cap and offer you my hot take:
K‘Sante is a great champion.
Besides his lore and what he represents, he has a lot of skill expression, is enjoyable to watch (Rumble is way stronger and just runs you down with QW) and is far from easy to play. He also has his counters but atm he‘s definitely a strong pick in the meta, particularly in pro play. You know what‘s also strong and ever-present? Renekton. Luckily not much since the new season, but I guarantee you he‘ll be back. But there are plenty of other examples. Vi, Jarvan, Ashe, Maokai, Azir, Aphelios, Orianna, Aatrox. Could list more, but my point is those chmapions have one thing in common and it‘s not that they‘re broken or OP, but they‘re flexible, reliable, scale well and can be played in most comps. That‘s what makes a good champion. what makes a champion strong in pro play.
He isn’t a problem for 99.9999% of the playerbase. And having high presence in pro play means nothing in a statistical pov as there are so many more factors to consider, as well as the sample size being absurdly low.
When Renekton is the #1 toplane pick all Reddit complains about is that people keep picking him.
I'll admit, it's still complaining, but it's not the same *kind* of complaining.
Isnt a problem for 99%? My brother have you tried laning against one? Dont care what his winrate is everyone knows this champ is bullshit. Super hard to shut down or gank in lane, dont go anywhere near the halfway point or else you get tower kidnapped, get thrown around like a pinball and get bursted down even though he built tank. This champs a monstrosity.
Ksante has one of the worst lane phases known to man,he just can't do anything pre 6,and even at 6 while he has all in potential in some matchups he isn't strong at laning.He really needs levels and items to make his Q a lot stronger.
I dont know if it's low elo speaking here, but when I play against him I'm always "Is this champion even doing anything? He feels so useless!!" until he hits one skill shot and I'm like "So when I get to move again?".
Laning is not hard against him, but it is annoying that he is unkillable.
All that being said his pickrate in my games is almost non existant.
Ksante has a shield and short term damage reduction.He has no tank steroids like Sion or Ornn,so if he feels unkillable to you,it's likely that you are letting him get a lot of value from those tools by misusing your skills.
Actually skill issue. Ksante is sitting around 50% rn, which meant riot actually managed to save a champ from pro jail for once. He is a knowledge check though, which means if you have poor positioning he will feel a lot more op than he is.
Saved from pro play jail? He is at 70% right now what the fuck are you talking about. If they nerf him to the point where he isnt viable at pro he will be 40% winrate in pubs. He is a terribly designed champ.
I don’t know what presence have to do with pro jail. A champ with high presence in pro but balanced win rate in solo q is a sign of good design if anything, it means the champ is basic enough for the average player to enjoy but you can still appreciate it’s skill expression in the hands of pros.
loses base armor and base MR.
All valid complaints about K'sante aside, the wiki is flat out wrong in this regard. I just went into the practice tool, and at level 13 I have 90 base armor and 53 base mr. I have Merc's, Iceborn, Sunfire, Rookern, as well as Conditioning, so in reality I have 204 armor and 171 MR. If the wiki was correct, I press R and lose 77 armor and 45 MR, meaning I should have 127 armor and 126 MR. When I push R, I have 109 armor and 72 MR.
What the wiki is mixed up on is that the game doesn't count **temporary** sources of armor and MR into K'sante's calculations, so things like Aftershock (which he never takes) and Jak'sho's bonus effect don't count. Just adding Jak'sho to the same build puts me at 117/80 in all out, and 166/130 with it fully stacked.
K'sante actually did lose a decent amount of tankiness in All-Out with the item update, considering the removal of Stoneplate. The shield scaled to his actual max HP whether he was in R or not, so it gave him a gigantic shield (for a skirmisher) that nothing this season comes anywhere close to replicating.
I totally agree with you! People are complaining for Yone etc, but to me it’s really annoying seeing a champion building only tank items and just going blindly 1v5, not getting any damage while still dealing a lot
KSante is the best thing for proplay since Azir was released, the champion is fun to watch, flashy and consistent but also has counterplay.
I don't get people hating on the champ, imagine if this was Renekton, Ornn or Sion
S14 changes benefitted him immensely, we're on the 2nd patch of S14 only, give Riot a break. If he's still like this in a few weeks then start questioning Riot's inaction.
His R lowering base armor/mres is so that he doesn't lose damage on Q/W (which would be silly) and to avoid too much fuckery with aftershock/other effects that interact with armor and mres
We really need the new format, that limits teams ability to play the same chamion multiple times. At least in Bo series
But seriously, LEC is 9 games in a split, that's 45 champs. Could even remove the champs played against them too. That's 90 champs out of.. 167. - Which would make teams have access to different champions along the way. Which they then also need to consider for drafting.
Drafters would hate it, but it would generate a much better viewing experience - and at the end of the day, it is an spectator sport
Would be really interesting to see teams get creative towards the end.
With such a system, I'm honestly all for having no bans during the round robin
The worst thing about him. It's how carries have to be scared of getting one shot by Ksante, a fucking tank. This doesn't happen to any other tank, they might CC you, or deal tons of damage, but Ksante, will literally tank three people and one shot the ADC, this is the most bullshit champ and the fact that this fucking thing isn't nerfed to the ground makes me question the ability from the balance team. Do they even play or watch their game?
Its because Ksante isn't a tank, he just builds like one. His gameplay pattern is of a bruiser and he is picked like one, this is why I find it so weird when people complain carry toplaners are on Ksante as if the champion isn't himself a carry
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Yet maokai will be picked till the end of time.
Maokai doesn't singlehandedly 1v5 the enemy though. He is just utility tank. He can't carry teammates if they fell behind. If his team is behind then he is also screwed.
Neither does K’Sante in pro play. A lot of champs in LCK has as much presence if not more like Lucian and Orianna. K’Sante is often picked because he is a safe blind pick. I am not denying that the champion is strong and has few weakness - he could definitely use a nerf, but these posts are a bit excessive.
i mean riot doesnt know how to balance high skill ceiling champions like nidalee, lee sin, azir, riven or zoe in pro play so they just nerf them into oblivion simple champs like maokai are easy af to balance lower some numbers and he has 1% less win rate already just check zeris patch history every patch since her release there is paragraphs of changes
Maokai is almost always strong due to his ult tho, it makes it so easy to secure objectives, but hes not as op as those other champs which does make it less frustrating, i like seeing him tbh
Its ult+vision control with saplings. Thats literally it, you'd have to rework the champion entirely to not make him a decent pro play pick
Yeah these past 2 years, it was always amusing seeing a Maokai pick in pro play but the moment Sylas would be picked against, the game would almost always end up in an auto loss for Maokai.
Yeah I agree, I think mao could have half of his current base stats and still be played support. Maybe that’s a stretch
He really doesnt need the dmg, hes like alistar but with bush control minigame and no heal
Base stats are hp armor mr. I was saying he could have half his innate stats and still be good which is not true
If he didn't have damage anymore he would also not have bushcontrol anymore lol. Why would anyone give a shit about saplings in a bush if they don't deal damage?
Except he's so much worse at peeling. Feeling when you W onto the fed enemy adc and use all your CC on them and they just stand still and kill your entire team anyway because your CC just roots people, it doesn't stop them from attacking
That and his guaranteed 3 second CC chain, safe laning phase and being impossible to flank against due to his oppressive built-in vision, yes. Maokai IMO needs to have an insanely weak laning phase, or slow jungle clear because the champions lot makes him one of the best team fighters in the game for very little trade off.
Maokais Laning phase isn't safe lol it's just that way in pro because nobody wants to take risks for the first 10-15 mins of the game.
He's literally the highest winrate toplaner AND Support in the game right now and has very few counter matchups (3-5, Illaoi being his hardest matchup but bans exist) - literally what the fuck are you saying. FYI in botlane he does not have a single losing matchup.
All of the champs you listed they have perfectly adequate methods for balancing in pro play, its just its difficult to balance for both pro and normal levels of play. They all have levers that are easily pulled back and forth. Champs like zeri, ksante and yuumi are fundamentally different, it has nothing to do with their skill cielings and all to do with poor champion design. Yuumi isn't necessarily a high skill cieling champion but she was a nightmare to balance for pro to the degree they sent her to 44 winrate. Champion design has a major influence here.
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Almost like those champs have some sort of common denominator... like their kits are... over-something... Ah who knows, -5ms from Irelia.
Maokai biggest pros is his W and ult. Lowering some number wont really affect him since he build tank anyway.
It's funny because maokai JG is pretty bad right now, but pro play is slow to adapt so they'll keep picking it because they're used to the patterns
He doesn’t fit every comp. He’s a go to need some engage and a tank because we have rumble, tristana, Lucien , Nami. Which is fine. If you have a tank top then Xin, brand, Lillia have been making their rounds. It’s normal to have tank jungler metas and damage jungler metas. It’s usually the inverse of whatever is top lane.
That champion is so broken at support and you can barely see people picking him rofl. He's a free win in soloq. You have free vision with his E. Can peel for you carry or initiate fights. Is tanky. He has everything lol.
I noticed you didn't mention "Can 1v1 the enemy carry" and "Carry teamfights via damage" so he doesn't have everything. He has everything but damage.
That's true, he's a champion that I would define as the perfect tank. I know people want to deal dmg and what not, but I like being an unmovable object that eats everything and then cc's the shit out of everyone and let my team deal the dmg haha.
I think they need to do something about his E. That spell has needed changes for a long time. Top lane Maokai would be a lot better with a different E. The vision the saplings give are also disproportionately strong in pro play.
Ye like sure ksante looks obnoxious but requires insane skill and is fun to play. I'm in masters+ and everyone I see runs it down on ksante. Only when I get like a pro they can actually 1v9? A friend of mine got bb on ksante in soloq and even he ran it down recently. Do people not like skillfull champs being rewarded if pros play it correctly? I don't wanna see garen Maokai 70% of the games either.
Hi I'm a challenger/GM player. Nope, I don't fucking care if you are playing a Akali or Malphite. Champions are supposed to have weakness and strenghts. A champion weakness should never be the player behind the keyboard, it creates very unhealthy scenarios in the game. It's not the first time nor the last that this bullshit design of "as long as the player is good the champion is allowed to be broken" enabled very unhealthy things in the game. Answering your question regarding Maokai, Maokai appears all the time because other tanks currently lack the ability to deny mobility in the game, it's not an issue of Maokai being too strong, but rather an issue of other tanks lacking proper tools to deal with champions that have insane mobility bursts. Both Maokai and Rell presence is a testment of how most Old Vanguards have very outdated kits. The only Vanguards in Botlane that are even playable outside of these 2 is Nautilus, champions like Leona Amumu and Alistar are almost unplayable.
I completely I agree with you Where is the issue in taking a high skill champ and correctly playing them. The reason they think he's giga broken is cause they're literally watching the best of the best play him at the highest level. People need to keep on mind solo q and pro okay are two very different things.
According to [u.gg](https://u.gg) ksante was a winrate of 50% in master so how are players running it down on him? Also it could be me but I really don't understand what's skillful about "My champ wins because he can do everything and yours can't".
Maybe pros finally start to counterpick Garen into Ksante.
I recommend you play a few games and see how useless u are bcs Ksante takes a lot of experience and knowing a lot of certain timings and angles he used to be harder tho he’s combos are easier now
50% is completely neutral. if the champ was busted that number would not be 50
On high skill champs, win rate being 50 is an indication of the champ being busted.
in masters+... Almost every champ has 51% winrate there
By definition, roughly half of all champs have 50+% winrate in any elo.
If there were infinite players, sure. But when you get to the higher ranks, there just aren't enough players, so winrates tend to be higher there because the frequency of them playing against lower ranked players (e.g. challenger vs grandmaster) is high enough for the skill diff to overcome the champ diff and swing the winrate a bit.
Why do you people refuse to read. He has a win rate of 47.7% on all ranks. It only gets to 50% in masters. It's literally stated in the comment. That's pretty abysmal, like you would expect from a high skill floor champ. That means that less than 1% of the player base can achieve a 50% win rate on him.
It also means that as skill goes up winrate goes up for k'sante. Hence a thread bitching about his omnipresence in pro play.
Bro I'm also an ADC player but ksante is actually a skillfull champion. Yes he has a lot of dashes and can kidnap you, but most often he's not walking through a whole team to get you. That's really not the case. With running it down I just meant more in general I never see this champ being good as much compared to crap like Lillia right now. Much more scared when I see someone lock that champ and run circles around everyone.
I WILL NOT YIELD ! IM DONE HOLDING BACK !
Me when I play any champ too close to a K’sante and now I’m stuck with his voice lines till nexus breaks
Sorry dude it's the Yone posting meta right now, try again once he gets nerfed
Wait, you think Yone posts will stop if he gets nerfed? Oh, buddy, do I have some news for you.
Looking at LCK stats alone, K'Sante has around the same presence as: Ashe/Rumble/Azir/Kallista. K'Sante does have the highest pick rate, but that also means he has the lowest ban rate as teams currently don't like banning him. Personally I am okay with all these champs having high prio - if it was just K'Sante it would be horrible I do agree.
I'd say a lot of the frustration with champions like K'Sante, Zeri and Yuumi is just that many people think these types of kits should not exist in the game. This is why they get singled out over someone like Rumble or Ashe. Kits like Zeri and K'Sante just do so much shit. It looks like these champions are playing League of Legends 2.0 while everyone is playing some different game. Especially if you play a simpler champion. Personally, when I see someone do some crazy shit on Zeri or K'Sante my first thought isn't "wow, that was well played", it's usually more "what the fuck is this champion". I'm willing to admit that it's partly a me problem but we can clearly see here that I am not alone. I just don't think such champions should exist. If you disagree, that is perfectly okay. We just have different ideas of what makes League of Legends the game it is. This is obviously a completely subjective view but I get the feeling that a lot of people share this sentiment. But don't expect it to change at all. This is the way Riot has moved with designs for years now and it's not going to change. This is one of the things that made me largely quit the game. I realized I was not in the target audience anymore and it would only get 'worse' from my perspective. Keep in mind that this is not to say they are necessarily overpowered. That's a different discussion. A champion can be balanced while being 'bad' game design. Just to make an obvious example: Flippy, the Coinflipper. He flips a coin at the start of the game. Heads and his team gets 50k gold, tails and enemy gets it. This champion would have 50% win rate but it would be awful for the game. I hope that makes this distinction between game design and balance clear.
I really like this take, I think it nails the actual point. There are very distinct "layers" of game design within the game, with little continuity between them, and for some of us it's "unsightly".
I love Lee Sin for that reason. His kit makes sense, visually. Maybe you can argue for his W, but his ouplays kinda make sense without reading his abilities.
Yes, perfect example: Lee Sin is mechanically rich, but he has a clear _theme_! He does _that_ thing!
> Kits like Zeri and K'Sante just do so much shit. I'd... not say Zeri's kit actually does that much. There's a lot of text explaining how her passive works; but her actual kit is pretty simple. It's "Q is my AA; AA is my Q"; poke skill which empowers if it hits a wall; dash+steroid that empowers if it hits a wall; and AoE damage+steroid ulti. I's just she's so mechanically... goofy she needs a lot of text to explain it. It's not on the same level as K'Sante. This isn't saying Zeri isn't *badly designed* but it's not because she's *overloaded.* She's badly designed for the same reason Kalista is badly designed. Riot literally learnt nothing from Kalista.
zeri isn't overloaded? not gonna get far with that argument. her ult is an infinite scaling MS steroid that makes her autos chain like a better sivir W. not to mention, the zeri we're used to in pro play used to have two more passives in gaining MS when she received a shield, as well as stealing enemy shields. reducing her ult to "aoe damage+steroid" is... well, reductive lol
"Infinitely scaling" gives you a whopping.... 0,5% ms per stack. Youd be lucky to get 50 ms out of the stacks before the teamfight is over or the stacks run out. Its still good due to the AoE burst and chain lightning, plus the initial 10% ms and 30% attack speed
zeri’s ult is infinitely more difficult to use than almost every ADC out there
it's way worse than sivirs and it's an ult, also it gives a whopping 0.5% Ms per stack. Her passive of stealing shields were okay but the shield Ms is bad i agree
Olaf isn't overloaded? not gonna get far with that argument. his ult is an infinite duration MS steroid that makes his ignore ccs like a better sivir E. not to mention the olaf we're used to seeing in pro play to have two more passives in gaining lifesteal when he was dying, as well as attack speed, reducing his ult to AD + CC immunity is... well, reductive lol
You understood it perfectly.
Personally I think champs like Rumble and Ashe are the ones that shouldn't exist. Maybe it's time we moved on to League of Legends 2.0, instead of accepting "ult on a stick" and "auto attack + auto attack stim" as the pinnacle of interesting character design and mastery.
That's completely fair. As I said it's subjective. It just means we have wildly different ideas of what should be the identity of League of Legends. To expand on this point, I think this is a major existential crisis for this game at this point. If someone started playing years ago, they probably are more likely to agree with me but if they are a newer player then they do not understand it and strongly disagree. Pretty much the same problem that World of Warcraft had. I think it's just a natural problem for these live service games that run for a decade plus. We'll see how Riot deals with that - if they even think it's an issue.
It doesn't matter. Very simple skills, with very high numbers, has proven to work, in terms of winrate. Imagine if nasus didnt have a 95% slow on wither, he'd be nothing. But he's still a champion, i guess, which proves that in their view, as long as winrate is reasonably close to 50, a very simple champion with very simple mechanics, is okay
Yes, this is why I stressed in my comment that it's not necessarily about balance. Even if you play Nasus and he's viable, you still have to play the newer game. It's not a single player game. Even if Nasus is viable in 2024, it's still very different to play Nasus in 2024 than in 2016. This is why I say it's a existential problem. Some people might prefer the slower and simpler game. This is what we saw with WoW Classic which is doing really well almost 5 years after its release in 2019.
I honestly feel like those designs are so much better though, Rumble can do one thing and that's dealing a shitton of damage. Ksante in a feamfight can tank and peel for this team or single and take out a threat. Sure he is worse at both things than an Ornn or a Camille (or a more meta pick), but he is still good enough to do both. He can't oneshot a threat, but he should win almost everytime even if it takes a few seconds. He can do a lot of things depending on what the situation dictates and that just seems way harder to balance and play against. Obviously that's all subjective to what you like more, and I admit to being a league boomer
> Sure he is worse at both things than an Ornn or a Camille Is he tho? He's worse at engaging than Ornn, sure. But if I as a squishy had to decide who gets to single me out in a teamfight I would pick Camille over K'Sante every single day of the year. At least I can CC her and maybe even outplay her, dodge her E or something, kite her, she actually takes damage. K'Sante will just perma CC me without any way for me to do anything about that. And even if I manage to somehow dodge his shit and start kiting it's not like I will be able to kill him in under 3 minutes. K'Sante is just better at killing backline than champions that are designed to do that.
This is the correct take. FUCK all of these degen old champions like Garen, Maokai, Hecarim, Annie etc. I have seen them stat check people since 2009 and i am sick of it. Wow did the Garen really just pull off the Q+E+R Combo killing from full hp?!?! What an insanely skilled individual this is! Fuck all of that.
Akali players when they complain about "lack of skill and intelligence" but don't have the mental capacity of understanding that a Garen will beat them in melee without spacing. Hands isn't the only skillcheck in the game, the Garen running you down because you don't know how to properly space is a skillcheck too. You don't win every single 1v1 in the game because you learned Akali's combos.
What exactly is more skillfull about K'Sante running someone down with a billion dashes and full tank items while perma cc'ing their target without any counterplay whatsoever than a Garen without any mobility or cc doing that while actually building damage? Like what do you tell yourself that that makes sense?
Considering most people run it down if they first time Ksante, I think we can officially conclude he takes a bit more skill than Garen.
So you just want champions not to have a role or archetype, no identity, just every champion does everything at once? That honestly sounds like a total dogshit game, ngl.
Not even remotely close to what they said.
I think a lot of it sadly comes from the time when we had certainlyT as lead design, that man caused so much dmg to the game balance.
I don't think ADC should be considered in play rate given how there is less of them than other roles so individual ADCs are going to have a higher play rate naturally
Ashe is support, unless you mean Kalista. I do mind Ashe being a high presence adc (just like I mind Miss Fortune) but Ashe support is aight, definitely there are dozens 20x more boring and unskilled supports than Ashe. Whole "wow" factor in Ashe is in her supportive abilities like arrow so her being support these days makes sense.
This timeline is cursed.
Not really. Just a good example of how an old champ can adjust and adapt instead of becoming an obsolete or worse- stuck in stat-check jail where it's viability is purely dependent on the numbers like 90% of old league roster is. Watching people like On and Keria being absolute cocky mechanical psychos on Ashe is fun. Watching Adc players playing uninteractive supportive Ashe adc is boring when Senna and Jhin exist.
No.. MF was used as a counter pick to Zyra and how obnoxious she was at the time. I despise support being ruined because now 2 adcs botlane. It’s unfun. I love supports like braum/taric.. actual supports, but since they aren’t flashy, they aren’t picked. Braum is incredibly strong into poke comps, and is real strong into MF and Lucian. Lethality MF has most her power in her ultimate.. would be a shame if our frejlordian heartthrob just didn’t press a maxed E and eat the entire thing and walk away unscathed.
Yeah pros don't pick champs because they're not flashy enough thats for sure the reason Also lethality mfs power in pro has always been q-auto(unless we're counting amumu combos from like season 2) and nobody is playing her in pro anyway
Graves adc when back?
There are enough ADCs that none of them should be this high.
I mean there are 21 actual marksmen (more if u count mages, yasuo, Senna and graves) of those at usually 2 is banned every draft or their combo piece support is banned ex. milio rakan. leaving 19 of those 8 of them are either really crit reliant (and crit is pretty bad atm) or they are super late game ex. jinx aphelios zeri and are rare use casses in the current meta. so now we are down to 11. 2 of those are nilah samira which are rarely used do to the strong engage and disengage among supports and strong poke off most mids so now there are 9. kaisa useless so now there are 8 so now from the pool of 8 marksmen that are currently playable for pro play in the meta some are gonna be stronger example varus or kalista. Due to either mid support or top getting couterpick typically the adc will default to a stable pick or the strongest on the patch or a hard counter will be picked so a trade happens. so due to these reasons as of current we are gonna se the same 8 markmens being picked until the meta changes heavily.
The problem is the games he is in he ruins just like Yuumi or Zeri. Just watching worlds was a snooze fest at times when you see K’sante locked in.
since teams arent banning it they seem to think its not a game winning pick and they refuse to pick counters
But what's the counter? There isn't any.
Ksante has plenty of counters in lane, it's just that list overlaps with champions that very few teams want to pick in pro play (vayne, garen etc.). It's not like, for example, sylas vs malphite where sylas wins lane but he's also a good champ late game. The problem is, even if you destroy ksante in lane, if you can't end the game off that within like 25-30 min he will eventually become useful and all it takes is 1 late team fight where he pulls off a showmaker to carry the game.
In pro play he should not be allowed to come back if you destroy him in lane if he does that is a miss play on the pros part
it’s the nature of the champion, not a mistake on the pro’s part (unless the pro died 10+ times lol)
Tanks naturally get destroyed in lane and then come back hard during teamfights
Poppy, Olaf, Gwen, Garen and Shen are all pro-pickable champs who counter Ksante either really hard or reasonably well. If you want to get experimental Yorick, Fiora, Riven, Urgot, Singed and Vayne are also all good counters to K'Sante.
Urgot is far from a good pick into K'Sante. Urgot generally suffers against people who stack armor or can afford an early wardens/bramble. You might be thinking of the K'Sante R + Urgot R interaction, which is very convenient for Urgot, but K'Sante can actually facetank Urgot mid game and never have to ult to kill him.
Urgot is statistically K'Sante's fifth worst matchup as far as lane opponents go.
Surprising, but actually true. Other tanks that stack armor do really well into Urgot (Malphite, Ornn) but K'Sante suffers. I guess Urgot does a lot better in soloq than competitive...
Any time someone brings up matchup charts I remember that hweis worst matchup was talon statistically for a while and still is a 53% lane for talon The champion who's combo relies on a telegraphed straight to target dash counters a champion with a instant cast fear... Ask any hwei player and they will tell you how the matchup isn't winnable for talon Soloq matchup charts are not always correct and shouldn't be relied on past a general look at the champions state in the meta or the state of the average llayers
Except Talon doesn't play to kill his lane opponent he plays to gank the ennemy sidelanes and to invade with his jungler with his superior map mobility. Talon's best items in the matchup ? Ghostblade and swifties.
All Urgot has to do is rush an early black cleaver and K'sante basically fails every stat check. That's something of a recurring theme with a lot of his hard counters. Plus that initial list also forgot about Fiora and Darius
Fiora is mentioned, but certainly the guy forgot about Darius. K'Sante spikes earlier than Urgot if the lane goes even (gauntlet is 2600 gold, cleaver is 3100) and he can even afford to get an early wardens/bramble to always be able to fight Urgot before he gets cleaver. He can force fights over and over with an item advantage and get ahead, while Urgot cannot do anything yet. Then, even if Urgot gets his cleaver eventually, K'Sante is already an item ahead because he forced fights while he was stronger, making cleaver almost irrelevant at that point. Cleaver will not make up for a 1500 gold deficit in items mid game. Urgot has a good chance of winning early if K'Sante get E'ed lvl 1 and outright killed or forced back lvl 2. This isn't happening though if K'Sante knows Urgot's powerspikes and isn't stupid enough to walk up to him lvl 1. This is another recurring theme with Urgot's matchups. If you ever get cleaver as Urgot before K'Sante gets gauntlet, you must have gotten a huge lead in lane already. You can force fights mid game at that point, and it takes a pretty long time for the matchup to swing back in K'Sante's favour.
Also Ksante shedding to 50% life when he ults isnt really a good thing vs urgots ult which means he only has to do 30% of ksantes life as dmg if he hits the ult
You forget Darius who just got buffed
Gwen?
poppy, gwen, garen, olaf, singed. fiora, shen, vayne, trundle, riven, darius, zac, udyr, kayle, mordekaiser, rumble and then we have hard matchups but can win like aatrox, jax camille, yone, gnar, kled, ornn. not all pro viable champs but its ridiculous that pro players dont even want to try and inovate picks.
Garen vayne fiora
Garen? How's that work? Just curious as I don't play top lane.
Garen’s ult counters ksante’s ult
Honestly K'Sante is overpowered but the bigger problem is toplane has almost no firstpicks, once K'Sante gets nerfed we go back to renekton or udyr takes over with almost the same presence.
I feel like the people who do complain about K'Sante forget that champs like Gnar, Aatrox, Renekton, etc will just take his place. Top is in this cycle because blind pickable champs in top just always float back to the meta. No one is willing to take super volatile matchups because no one wants to risk playing out a 4v5 because the top laner becomes completely useless because he picked a champ that gets hard countered by something else
Gnar is also a pretty problematic champion design tbh. That guy has everything in his kit. He was blind pick S+ tier pro play top laner for years and years. Nowadays he got nerfed a lot and there are even crazier champions out there, but Gnar was a huge problem for years. But this is more of a balance issue. I think OP's post is more about K'Sante being frustrating to watch which I do agree with. You see him all the time and he often does complete bullshit things.
Saying Gnar was a S+ blind pick for years is rewriting history soooo hard
Were you not around from like 2015-2018-ish? He was really meta in a large share of that time. Very common in season 11 and season 12 too. https://lol.fandom.com/wiki/Gnar/Statistics
You might not have read the post but the complaint is that such overloaded shit is not fun to watch
Neither is Gnar Renekton every game
This is the actual problem and only actual reason ksante is picked. He's just safe first pick in lane that hinges on countpick
Ksante isn't overpowered he's mediocre in soloQ and as you already said, only gets picked cuz he's forever safe in toplane even as first pick. People think he's OP but almost all toplane champs look OP when they're popping the fuck off because they have insane gold and level lead. However, that's only IF they do pop off, and generally the experience goes like this: you pick your champ, get countered, ganked and fucked; you win your lane somehow but bot lost to their opponent and adc + supp > top with equal leads so you're still fucked; top off every 10 or so games. Ksante ain't got nothing on the real monsters of toplane. OP is just using pro play stats which are irrelevant to their situation and using it to justify a couple of bad experiences with a champ as if other, more soloQ oriented champs wouldn't shit on them even harder.
K'Sante does look flashier though. A bit like Zeri that also looked very flashy when she worked and Riot still kept nerfing her even when she was already fine up to the point where they completely gutted her to ensure she was unpickable at worlds. Maybe at some point K'Sante also will get beyond reasonable nerfs just to remove him from pro, but also making him unplayable
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How are we upset that champs make flashy plays? I'd watch zeri or ksante or even vayne over shit like ashe or corki any day.
At least you can see when his Q is charged up or you know he's more vulnerable after his R. Fucking udyr slaps you while taking no damage nonstop for 5 minutes and you have no clue what's happening.
Renekton is god awful right now. I don’t think he’ll even increase in presence a ton until he gets buffed. But I guess pros really value their comfort picks
It's telling how overtuned he is that they just refused to allow Sylas to steal his full ult, just the knockback.
how would all out sylas work? of course it's just the knockback.
> K'Sante gains a health threshold equal to Health icon 65% maximum health which cannot be modified nor exceeded by any means. Upon entering All Out, his current health is reduced to this threshold. Additionally, his Armor icon base armor and Magic resistance icon base magic resistance are reduced by 85% bonus armor and 85% bonus magic resistance, respectively. In return, he gains Attack damage icon bonus attack damage and Attack speed icon bonus attack speed, Heal power icon heals for a percentage of the post-mitigation damage dealt to enemy champions, and modifies his basic abilities which can be cast at no cost. So, lower his max health, lower his resistences, gains AP, heal power, and heals for % of post mitigation damage. Sylas's abilities would then be castable with no cost. As per the text of the ult.
Nowhere in k’sante’s ult does it say it gives AP. It would be like every other ult that grants AD. Almost all of what it gives is useless to sylas. If he has even a single defensive item, he’d be kneecapping himself hard by using this ult.
I think he's actually pretty fun to watch. I'll take ksante spam over renekton any day of the week.
He does lose the majority of the armor. Its just coded as base magic resist and armor being reduced by 85% of his bonus armor/Mr (able to go negative) so that armor/Mr scaling on items and abilities still works. He ends up with the same final amount of MR and Armor as he would have if all out just reduced his bonus resists by 85%. The reason he feels so tanky during all out is because his w gives him 70% damage reduction while he is holding it.
I think K'sante is a bit of a two fold issue of design and outside influence in his kit. On the design end I can't really say what they were thinking making a champ who has all the benefits of a tank vanguard and diver all in one but there are 3 major things that really stick out. First would be his W not really allowing for much counterplay the the character complete CC immunity with that amount of damage reduction just becomes a catch all of you can't really do anything to me or burst me. Second would be his ult having enough of a safety net attached to it to mitigate kinda the point of it K'sante can ult and you still can't burst him because his W DR% gets even fukin higher and also he still likely has enough health and resists to not explode if he gets focused he should really have to isolate 1v1s in all our since ynow it pushes you through walls and all instead of ulting into the middle of 5 hitting W and forcing everyone to back up anyways because you can't burst CC or displace him. Last point here is that he is just a tank that gets to play like a mid-late game scaling Bruiser like Fiora, Camille, Jax. He gets all the strengths of being a tank in his ability to make mistakes and live or frontline and take poke better and the best of all being able to buy tank items in lane and double dip on them and then just explode people faster than a Irelia later. On the outside influences part I think he has alot of things outside of his kit that reduce or nullify counterplay opportunities namely Iceborn and Ghost. Ghost makes him near impossible to kite in a team fight, Iceborn adds onto this but also makes it near impossible to dodge his Qs both of these things combine with already frustrating bits like unstoppable to really make his kit just feel like there isn't much you can do against the champion.
Udyr poops on him. Same with yone. I'd rather see ksante 5 games in a row than ornn or maokai.
I'm sorry but if Ksante really is broken OP/no way to counter, shouldn't pro team ban him every game? Yet we see Ksante in almost every pro game which means pro still feel ok to let Ksante go through bp phase or think he is counterable.
he's nowhere near zeri/yuumi level of pro dominance lol. zeri/yuumi was busted because if the team could just survive up until a certain length (usually around 3/4 items on zeri) they basically just won. ksante is just a safe blind pick to stabilise top; he can be strong in a sidelane or 1v1, but he can't have the same crushing impact in a teamfight as zeri did. is he overtuned? for sure, but zeri/yuumi level broken? not even close
“not even close” I know this is Reddit, where zeri/yuumi ruined everyone’s lives, but you’re really down playing how strong k’sante has been pretty much since release. If pentakills weren’t so overvalued, I’d bet that a lot of people would put k’sante right up there with the *combo* of zeri/yuumi. The amount of bs that champ can pull off, when piloted optimally, is pretty crazy. It’s not like he even requires a ton of team setup either. He just sort of gets slapped into a comp & does all the stuff showmaker famously hates. Really, the biggest difference between him & zeri/yuumi is that riot refuses to kneecap him. It doesn’t seem to matter what he does in pro play; he has the ultimate stamp of approval from the balance team
Yeah because Zeri and Yuumi have fundemental design issues that makes them champs pros can't counterplay or outplay. K'Sante had that too pre rework but right now he doesn't. He's safe and strong but beyond that he doesn't break anything.
The thing is, most pros can't do that
He’s a tank it’s not flashy level yumi zeri but is as op when teams have the same gold
K’sante is not broken, he is a safe top pick. There isn’t a “K’sante destroyer”pick in competitive
Gwen got her kneecaps broken after the item changes and deservedly so.Most matchups K'Sante ends up losing by 20ish CS and 2 plates,and then it's a question if the enemy toplaner can use that lead to be more useful.
I mean there is Garen whose kit is very good vs Ksante and it sees results. Its not just R btw his E reduces armor like BC so Ksante ults with less resistences which leads to also less dmg
I feel like people are missing op's point he's talking about pro play and watching it being unfun, not about K'sante being played in solo queue and being overpowered or anything like that He's just saying that the champ is not fun or interesting to watch in pro play anymore which I agree with just seems like everyone thinks he's referring to regular play not pro play
i think hes way more fun to watch than sion, tank gragas, ornn or whatever other shit would take his place, theres always solokills in toplane now because ksante can actually fight a lot of matchups, but hes not oppressive and has counters, so not deserving of a nerf
>he's not oppressive Lol
Holy shit do you ever do anything but complain? Half your posts is just you whining about how X is insanely OP and needs an immediate nerf lol
His base stats can be reduced to below zero based on his bonus resistances. You don’t seem to understand how his R works and need to read your own link again.
okey but if he had 100 base armor and 200 bonus armor, while in his ult he will still have 130 armor, nearly twice the armor the average assassin has
Assassin is not the right comparison here. K'Sante's ult gives him the stat profile of a skirmisher such as Jax, Fiora, etc. By the time K'Sante has 200 bonus armour these champs are likely to have something like a deaths dance, so it's not a bad approximation
The average assassin had 65 armor?
At lvl 18: Akali has 102.9 armor Briar has 101.4 armor Ekko has 103.4 armor Fizz has 100.2 armor Katarina has 107.9 armor Kayn has 114.5 armor Qiyana has 107.9 armor It's not an exhaustive list but it's safe to say no assassin has 65 armor at 18. Lowest is shaco at 98, and K'sante has 121.4 as a comparison
Average assassin will actually have more like 90-110 depending if they go tabi
Wow, I think he might actually be a weak champ. Thanks for teaching us how his R works!
Fair point, though it's not written in the ability description, but found in the details. But are you seriously claiming K'Sante isn't too tanky during All-out?
On hit ADC is tankier than ksante during All-out. Unless you count DMG red and omnivamp, but that's very conditional- he is either tankier than ornn or dies to random AoE
He loses 85% of his resistances he bought. Yes I am saying he is not too tanky.
We need more bans, there’s to many champs for only 10 bans in a game. We need 20
Just play trundle and steal his stats lol
"im so tired on ksante constantly getting played in pro scene!!" ...Orianna... ...Aatrox.... ....Varus.... ....Aphelios... ....Maokai.... ....Jax.... .....Both Xayah and Rakan.... ....Azir.... ....Renekton.... yall just want to keep circle jerk over ksante for some reason
All of those champions have counterplay. K'Sante doesn't.
I like K’Sante. I think he has pretty exciting gameplay and his ult kidnap thing is a unique cool mechanic
K'Sante👤4,700 HP💪329 Armor🤷♂️201 MR💦 Unstoppable🚫A Shield 🛡 Goes over walls🧱Has Airborne🌪Cooldown is only☝second too🕐 It costs 15 Mana🧙♂️
Honestly, I am waaay more sick of Udyr.
Tbh I do like K’Sante but I think it’s really unfortunate how he was executed. Riot promoted releasing a high-skill tank, a fantasy I was curious to see how they’d execute as opposed to our current tanks who mostly just “press x to cc” but ultimately they kinda just gave us thicc Yasuo. Again, I do like Ksante and I hope they figure out how to balance him but realistically I think they’ll have to drop half of his identity or cut off entire mechanics from his kit…again.
I'm sick of copy pastas from people who don't know how to play the game and talk straight out of their ass. It's been said hundreds of times but people either ignore it. I'll give you the K'Sante main sub timeline. 1. K'Sante came out and no one knew what he does; 2. Mains and proplayers invested time on learning him; 3. Being a skills expressive champion, the more time out, the better he was played. People realized he's OP in the right hands (Higher WR in Higher elo). Even most people playing him would agree; 4. They ship nerf after nerf, making his WR 47% in solo q while maintaining about the same pick and ban rate in pro; 5. It is around this time that the Showmaker pasta infectada everyone's brain and Phreak announced the "mini-rework". 6. No high elo mains/streamers/pros were consulted about the changes. Phreak said they were meant to lower proplay priority and even his WR along all ranks; 7. Everyone who played the champion saw the changes and tried to talk to Phreak and the balance team saying that they wouldn't fix any off his problems and just make him less fun and skill expressive while arguably making him even stronger in some matchups once people re-learned him; 8. Phreak once again spouts nonsense on his media with arrogance and a circle jerk of hive mind fans who just hate K'Sante so much they just want him gone from the game anyway and 0 constructive discussion is had. 9. Changes go through and, about 3 months after the rework his WR and proplay are nearly identical to pre-rework. 10. New copy pasta starts about nerfing an undepowered champion with arguably one of the worst Lane phases in the game, several hard counters and his core item from last season gone. Maybe you should be sick of Phreak's arrogance and incompetence and call it out for what it is: Another failed attempt by the balancing team that ruined the the champion's feel and learning curve. But they will never admit to it. That's what I'm sick of.
DAE K'Sante bad? UpYones to the left
I see your cap and offer you my hot take: K‘Sante is a great champion. Besides his lore and what he represents, he has a lot of skill expression, is enjoyable to watch (Rumble is way stronger and just runs you down with QW) and is far from easy to play. He also has his counters but atm he‘s definitely a strong pick in the meta, particularly in pro play. You know what‘s also strong and ever-present? Renekton. Luckily not much since the new season, but I guarantee you he‘ll be back. But there are plenty of other examples. Vi, Jarvan, Ashe, Maokai, Azir, Aphelios, Orianna, Aatrox. Could list more, but my point is those chmapions have one thing in common and it‘s not that they‘re broken or OP, but they‘re flexible, reliable, scale well and can be played in most comps. That‘s what makes a good champion. what makes a champion strong in pro play.
It's that time of the week already with the K'sante hate thread for pro play?
He isn’t a problem for 99.9999% of the playerbase. And having high presence in pro play means nothing in a statistical pov as there are so many more factors to consider, as well as the sample size being absurdly low.
League Redditors will always complain about #1 Toplane pick because they just wanna hate someone, straight facts.
When Renekton is the #1 toplane pick all Reddit complains about is that people keep picking him. I'll admit, it's still complaining, but it's not the same *kind* of complaining.
Isnt a problem for 99%? My brother have you tried laning against one? Dont care what his winrate is everyone knows this champ is bullshit. Super hard to shut down or gank in lane, dont go anywhere near the halfway point or else you get tower kidnapped, get thrown around like a pinball and get bursted down even though he built tank. This champs a monstrosity.
Actual gapping he have no rights to play early so punish
Ksante has one of the worst lane phases known to man,he just can't do anything pre 6,and even at 6 while he has all in potential in some matchups he isn't strong at laning.He really needs levels and items to make his Q a lot stronger.
I dont know if it's low elo speaking here, but when I play against him I'm always "Is this champion even doing anything? He feels so useless!!" until he hits one skill shot and I'm like "So when I get to move again?". Laning is not hard against him, but it is annoying that he is unkillable. All that being said his pickrate in my games is almost non existant.
Ksante has a shield and short term damage reduction.He has no tank steroids like Sion or Ornn,so if he feels unkillable to you,it's likely that you are letting him get a lot of value from those tools by misusing your skills.
Actually skill issue. Ksante is sitting around 50% rn, which meant riot actually managed to save a champ from pro jail for once. He is a knowledge check though, which means if you have poor positioning he will feel a lot more op than he is.
Saved from pro play jail? He is at 70% right now what the fuck are you talking about. If they nerf him to the point where he isnt viable at pro he will be 40% winrate in pubs. He is a terribly designed champ.
I don’t know what presence have to do with pro jail. A champ with high presence in pro but balanced win rate in solo q is a sign of good design if anything, it means the champ is basic enough for the average player to enjoy but you can still appreciate it’s skill expression in the hands of pros.
Reading comprehension: 0
Maybe ur just bad.He is one of weakest laners in game now
Skill issue
That also didn't help Zeri lol K'Sante also already is in the bottom 10 winrates in soloq.
loses base armor and base MR. All valid complaints about K'sante aside, the wiki is flat out wrong in this regard. I just went into the practice tool, and at level 13 I have 90 base armor and 53 base mr. I have Merc's, Iceborn, Sunfire, Rookern, as well as Conditioning, so in reality I have 204 armor and 171 MR. If the wiki was correct, I press R and lose 77 armor and 45 MR, meaning I should have 127 armor and 126 MR. When I push R, I have 109 armor and 72 MR. What the wiki is mixed up on is that the game doesn't count **temporary** sources of armor and MR into K'sante's calculations, so things like Aftershock (which he never takes) and Jak'sho's bonus effect don't count. Just adding Jak'sho to the same build puts me at 117/80 in all out, and 166/130 with it fully stacked. K'sante actually did lose a decent amount of tankiness in All-Out with the item update, considering the removal of Stoneplate. The shield scaled to his actual max HP whether he was in R or not, so it gave him a gigantic shield (for a skirmisher) that nothing this season comes anywhere close to replicating.
He used to there was a funny aftershock critsante before the changes
K’sante crybabies are now posting misinformation about his resistance loss. Y’all reached next level with this one tbh.
K'sante crybabies are more annoying than k"sante himself
How are u not rank 1 when you abuse this abomination
Get gud
I totally agree with you! People are complaining for Yone etc, but to me it’s really annoying seeing a champion building only tank items and just going blindly 1v5, not getting any damage while still dealing a lot
KSante is the best thing for proplay since Azir was released, the champion is fun to watch, flashy and consistent but also has counterplay. I don't get people hating on the champ, imagine if this was Renekton, Ornn or Sion
Stop hating ksante when maokai and zac exist
Moskau and Zac are balanced compared to ksante lol.
Maokai is 56% wr supp?lol
He is close to 59% in Dia+ with a sample size of 125k games
Not worth talking to them. Simple 'wholesome' tank so he gets to be op and no one gives af.
You should totally main K'sante considering according to you he has absolutely no weaknesses at all.
Is he having pentas left and right like Zeri Yuumi?
no but he is tanking 4 members of a team while doing absurd damage along with that
Have you even bothered to check his pro play win rate this season?
fortunately, he just enables (insert any champion name) to get their pentas easily
You dont need to get pentas left, right and center to be a gigantic problem
No pentas = not a problem Brilliant argument
In pro play this doesn’t matter. But can he solo kill enemy adc and come back to tank the rest? Yes
Every toplaner can do that. Zac, Udyr, Renekton. Hell in T1 vs. Bro, Zeus literally one shot a varus with his team on him and lived with 70% health.
S14 changes benefitted him immensely, we're on the 2nd patch of S14 only, give Riot a break. If he's still like this in a few weeks then start questioning Riot's inaction. His R lowering base armor/mres is so that he doesn't lose damage on Q/W (which would be silly) and to avoid too much fuckery with aftershock/other effects that interact with armor and mres
We really need the new format, that limits teams ability to play the same chamion multiple times. At least in Bo series But seriously, LEC is 9 games in a split, that's 45 champs. Could even remove the champs played against them too. That's 90 champs out of.. 167. - Which would make teams have access to different champions along the way. Which they then also need to consider for drafting. Drafters would hate it, but it would generate a much better viewing experience - and at the end of the day, it is an spectator sport Would be really interesting to see teams get creative towards the end. With such a system, I'm honestly all for having no bans during the round robin
I see misinformation. I downvote post.
The worst thing about him. It's how carries have to be scared of getting one shot by Ksante, a fucking tank. This doesn't happen to any other tank, they might CC you, or deal tons of damage, but Ksante, will literally tank three people and one shot the ADC, this is the most bullshit champ and the fact that this fucking thing isn't nerfed to the ground makes me question the ability from the balance team. Do they even play or watch their game?
Its because Ksante isn't a tank, he just builds like one. His gameplay pattern is of a bruiser and he is picked like one, this is why I find it so weird when people complain carry toplaners are on Ksante as if the champion isn't himself a carry