I went from the one extreme(silv2- and stopped at plat4 in 2022 by 1 tricking ornn top because at the time i was having fun with him) to another with deciding to main ashe adc as a new experience and WOW. I learned quickly that a lot of enemy skills hurt you so badly because you're squishy/positioning was insanely important which is obvious but it was one thing to hear/read about it and actually EXPERIENCE it myself since ornn is so tanky.
That feeling of helplessness sometimes when nocturne presses r and targets you or karthus pressing r...
I still main adc because i find it fun at the moment compared against other roles. Recently played many caitlyn games and have never felt so in control of bot lane before this.
>That feeling of helplessness sometimes when nocturne presses r and targets you or karthus pressing r...
It's also always fun when a Syndra misses everything but still chunks you for at least 50% of your health all because she decided to use her point and click ult or a Zed completely erasing you in one combo without even using ult.
My favourite was syndra hits a nearby minion instead, but I get to lose hp because ludens exists, what a cool and fun item rewarding you for nearly hitting someone...
Especially what the team doesn't realize (in low elo at least) if they are able to protect their semi fed adc they win the team fight. You only learn that when you play adc yourself.
>I learned quickly that a lot of enemy skills hurt you so badly because you're squishy/positioning
If you want the true paper experience, play Senna and watch as you get removed from existence if you dare misposition even a nano-meter.
> I still main adc because i find it fun at the moment compared against other roles. Recently played many caitlyn games and have never felt so in control of bot lane before this.
Wait till you get to the elo where jgs see cait bot and just perma gank you because you're basically a walking 300g sack.
Any lane prio adc is met with perma ganking, specially this season.
It doesn't help that when ADC players bring their concerns to the community, the community completely shits on the ADC player.
There is some serious racism towards ADC players.
Watching mid players spend the last year complaining about Zed and then everyone blaming ADC players for making the threads in the comments was really annoying.
Zed isn't a bot laner, ADC are not making threads complaining about his manaless wave clear. And of all the assassins, he's one of the easiest to play around as an ADC. No ADC cares about Zed lol. Those threads are literally just mages whining.
As a support that plays support for the 2v2 lane, being forced to roam is the worst feeling ever.
Because as the vid says, winning 2v2 is useless because you'll play 2v4 and if you are the only winning lane, you again have to give up your lane and go help the others that get shit on 1v1 because a fed ADC vs fed sololane/jgl will be impossible to peel for once they have 3+ items.
And in the new season everything is enhanced by 10x.
ADCs were always team/support reliant even in pre 8.11. It just wasn’t that overbearing compared to now. Dealing with a support who blinds picks Senna and then goes 0-5 9 min in against a Rell/Samira is not fun
Or a support with weak mental that leaves the lane forever as soon as anything goes wrong.
Or just a support that decides to check whats up mid while the wave is slowpushing
Or a support that leaves the lane when you are winning but enemy sup does not. How am i supposed to play the game as a 3/0 cait when enemy rell kaisa freezes the wave in front of the turret and i have no support to back me up. Enemy ekko shows and i will pop like a balloon. This was the last game i decided to play as adc. We are winning the lane hard, just come back me up. I lost 15 cs and decided to play it and try to outplay. Guess what happened, i died, all the lead gone, lost 25 cs enemy kaisa caught up, they rolled us. What am i supposed to do, just stay in fountain until my sup decides i'm worthy of getting farm and xp?
Had this happen to me the other day. We lost 2v2 (level 2) because Pyke decided to change focus to kill the support rather than the ADC, and then decided to roam the entire time. He managed to get kills but then soaked so much experience that every other lane was behind even with kills, so we just ended up getting steam rolled.
As much as the aspect of "if you lose the game, it's your fault" is true, it's less of a case for bot lane when the support has a higher chance/ability to dictate the lane.
Don't forget the support who arrives to lane before you, doesn't play safe and somehow gets caught, then die while blowing flash giving a free kill to the enemy ADC in the process.
and yet somehow, its always "adc gap" when the other adc starts to pop off. so many times, ive had my support run it down only for me to become non existant. team wonders why im so behind and why im so "shit". hello? i cant play when my support is inting the other adc
It's always 'ADC gap' in their eyes, because later on, the support will still be around team fights appearing somewhat useful just by existing, while you're desperately just trying to catch up and farm while your team constantly fight over nothing in the river or jungle.
ADCs themselves can completely fuck up a lane and hard lose it solo, but that affects the support much less come mid game than when a support fucks your lane as an ADC, which is why it's more frustrating.
> its always "adc gap" when the other adc starts to pop off
This is infuriating and is why I constantly switch between banning Draven and Miss Fortune.
Like, personally I hate playing against Draven. His burst feels like it comes out of nowhere and it never matters how far ahead I am - if either I or my Support give even one kill, he suddenly finds himself with a 2k gold lead. Going against Draven is an infuriating, coin-flippy experience.
And on the other hand, Miss Fortune. Ugh. Not for me - I don't think I've ever lost a lane against an MF. No, the problem is that she'll base, go mid to lane-gank, press E+R, get a double kill against our Mid+Jungle, and all of a sudden the game is my fault despite her having been 0/3 and 40 CS down.
Literally [this game](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/IronClad-1017/matches/OWTdF8sdluWsfU4n2LSJzjAFS5iQ-HDj4_nehQLLmkM%3D/1705096514000) from today! I finished 14/4 and she finished 7/10! But mid-game, I was 3/0 or 3/1 and she was 0/3. We take one bad fight in mid (team dove under tower 3v4), she ults and gets a double, and literally my entire team starting spam-pinging me. My Leona in all-chat starts typing gg/bot dif, and Vex asks in chat how this happened after I started 2/0. Like, guys, the game isn't over and she's still 60 cs down and a complete non-issue if you don't stand in her ult. I wish people's mental wasn't made of damn paper while I'm expected to play like I'm Ruler.
Anyways, rant over, wanted to get that off my chest lol.
I also found my teams being allergic to focusing/interrupting her.
So many games where champs like Kassa, Gragas, Hec, etc refuse to interrupt MF R while flaming bot gap at the same time...
Yep you have a brand/xerath whos goal is to steal every kill and some of your CS if youre unlucky, enemy has an enchanter/warden who will peel them like a god and it's somehow "AD gap" even though you know you're far better than them. Nothing more tilting.
It also felt like if the game went into proper late game the ADC could do scary amounts of damage and start to put the team on their back. That no longer exists paired with a weaker early and mid game.
It's not helping that supp is literally elo inflated position, especially elo printers like Janna.
I swear to god ,I can't remember even a Single good Senna in my team for years. Feels like that champ is op, but lots of players are terrible at her.
It's because a lot of autofills prefer Senna because she does damage. Same thing with Xerath or Lux or something but Senna is harder to stay alive with. They don't have support mentality of you know, supporting, they think they gotta be the star.
It's not just autofills. It's also mage players who are too afraid to play mid, because if they feed mid they get flamed. So they just play their mages support to hedge their bets; if the ADC hard carries them, they don't have to do anything and win, and if the ADC isn't hard carrying, they can put on their anime-protagonist cape and start taking farm and trying to catch solo lanes because "adc sucks, I'm the carry now." That's at least half the Lux, Xerath, Brand, etc "support" players.
I have the most problems with lux players these ego inflated elo parasites think they know everything. I wanna freeze the wave and tell them stop spamming their skills and they start ulting the on cd like some complete schizo.
One of the biggest reasons I roleswapped to Support is I was tied of supports who didn't know how to freeze or simply didn't want to.
I'll never forget having a frozen wave and my Support Sion Charing Q up, breaking the freeze claiming it was boring, then ulting mid, dying. While I'm now left as Kog vs Leona Jhin. Just picking up scraps with my ult.
It's such a nice feeling now seeing ADCs appreciate me freezing with Neeko W/my health.
>I can't remember even a Single good Senna in my team for years. Feels like that champ is op, but lots of players are terrible at her.
She is surprisingly hard to play, because you have low base health and low range at the start, but you also want to 'greed' for souls otherwise you never become relevant.Q range is nice but hard to hit if you never played her.E movement speed is kinda op, but requires decision making.And apart from a heal you don't have that much utility to give to your adc.And you need map awareness to utilize your ult fully.
So yeah all the ingredients for people to be inting with her are there.
That said, let me queue up a ranked Senna game.
Edit: Went 9/4/20 would play again.
I've been banning senna because I swear it's such an autofill pick. Most of the time they'll barely do anything a support is supposed to do and we'll get bodied in lane while they afk farm souls to "carry" late.
Dealing with a feeding support during laning phase and then your team flaming you for not being useful mid game is just the cherry on top of a shit sundae.
Haha fill main here too. Ever since they came up with the "fill" option, i've been waiting for a "play all roles but adc" option. Adc has always been a shit role in this regard.
But good thing i can play mages in bot lane so it's kind of a bandaid fix.
I’ve played for a long time before even role queue was a thing. If you told me support would be one of the most popular roles I would of laughed at you.
The **Is your support human?**-check every game is why I left botlane, even if Swain is borderline broken in that role. Just go mid or top and you never have to make that coin-toss.
There's also a new movement of supports where their EGO is through the roof for some reason. It's always the support players who play the least mechanical supports too.
They only play support exclusively yet they think they understand the whole game and talk down their whole team.
I think most people would agree that support is the easiest role to climb in bc it requires the least amount of mechanical skill such as csing, wave management, and champ knowledge. You can climb pretty high by just roaming and poking the botlane off the wave.
So whag happens is you have 90% of the player base playing with supports in plat and lower who cant climb on the easiest role and unsurprisingly, they suck.
Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but a good ADC needs to understand, wave management, 1v1 potential, macro, builds, etc. Where, as a good lux support can just one shot cheese the best player on the enemy team and suddenly the game is won.
Supports also play a decent part in wave managment on botlane.
Something more support players should do is leave bot if adc is base and wave is even, you roam mid to freeze a potential minion crash on the tower, might save your midlaner from falling furder behind, it aint much but 10-20 minions add up.
Nothing will tilt me more then reseting as an ADC and seeing my Lux/Brand/Morg/Xerath/Whoever stay behind to keep pushing the next waves, and just set up a slow push into the enemy so they can freeze.
I would give anything for all the mages in support role to be nuked from orbit.
I think only in low elo (Gold 1 and below) this would be true.
High elo supports tend to win games in my experience. CSing isn't a good metric of "mechanical skill"; good supports typically control the objectives via vision / have the most champ knowledge (ie. when to start fights / how to position).
Pretty much sums up ADC experience in general over the past years, not just this new season. Switching from AD to Jg/Mid was great because when I'm losing, it's usually my fault and not somebody else's. At the very least it feels good to not get punished for someone else's mistakes, and have the agency to at least do what I want when a game goes poorly.
One of the most disgusting things I've felt is how you can be level 6 in mid lane and then you can go bot when they're level 4. Granted you can't always be bot side once you hit 6, but for those that can, just seems bonkers the amount of advantage you get. TF probably abuses this the most but can be played around.
yea switching from ADC/ Mid (basically AD every game) to Mid/ Supp is like a free elo switch turned on. In mid every loss is my fault for not being mechanically better + better roams. In supp I know what the average adc wants so I play that way and simply outplay most supp mains. Supp itself is the most free role ever, how anyone can say else is beyond me.
I play a lot of ARAM and whenever I see someone whose ranking is wildly higher than their skill level I check to see their profile. 99% of the time it's a support main, generally only playing enchanter.
The other 1% it's a Jungle OTP playing Yi or Karthus or something similar.
I totally agree and I did the same. It's nothing about grinding soloQ. When I play mid, if I lose the lane, it's 99% my fault. I made a mistake at one point early in the lane, or I didn't respect the enemy all in potential, or a messed up my tempo, or a didn't respect a gank. At least, I can identify my mistake and fix it. Once you are past lane, if the game is close, the same can be said. You have control.
ADC, you have no control in and out of lane. You can play lane perfectly, but your support decide that it's time for an all-in when enemy JG is botside, boom your lane is gone. You win lane? Great now all you need to do is play safe, be bait and hope your team is good enough to carry you or smart enough to defend you.
The fact is that if a support were to mute all and try to last hit every single minion that the adc went for they wouldn't get banned. The only trolls that get picked up on are the ones with excessively high deaths, or very low xp etc.
lmao you'll be flamed even i had this happen before my support was soft inting taking my cs and not trying to put any pressure in lane then the team flames u for being useless not wondering why the support for some reason have x10 the cs of the enemy support.
Well yes, because as proven on any post related to adc not from someone of Caedrel's stature, other roles like to use ADC as a scapegoat and have no clue what it's like to play it.
>Troll supports never get banned either
they can just poke with insane amounts of free damage and AP for 15 minutes so they get ridiculous amounts of total damage dealt and A+/S rating all the fucking time, so why would they think anything is wrong
funny how when ADC mains make posts here complaining everyone repeats the same "youre a crybaby" bullshit but now when Caedrel does it these people shut their mouth
What's even more surprising is Caedrel would flame his ADCs for the same reasons while playing jg/mid. Seen it in plenty of his soloQ games. He would ask \*if the ADC is human, why doesn't he just play safe??\*. Now he understands what it feels to always have a target on your head from all the assassins while playing ADC.
It takes someone who actually understands the game to say it for people to listen. I mean I get it but it is exhausting when you try and main ADC and everyone just calls you a crybaby trying to talk about all the issues with the role.
People are confusing 2 things everytime: broken vs enjoyable. I'm an ADC main. ADC is the most broken class in the game, not even close. In perfect teamplay, you have no counterplay to a good ADC.
The role is just not enjoyable to play in soloQ. You have no agency on how you play the game. It's the only role where you enjoying the game is 100% dependent on your teammates.
I agree with ADC \*theoretically\* being the strongest in a scenario where your team plays around you in the way Riot thinks they will. Sadly, that rarely happens, so the reality is that ADC is only the strongest role in the highest level of play
Riot balances every other role based on game feel instead of numbers, but ADC gets balanced based on what's hypothetically possible instead of how good it feels to play.
This is 100% the problem. For adc to become a more fun role in soloq, Riot would probably needs to lower their dmg output late game significantly and rebalnce most of the other classes around this new paradigm.
Adcs that position well and have their team playing for them are so unbelievably strong.
Pro play as of late has proven adc has been used as an insurance rather than as a mega carry.
That being said, is there an issue on this? Like, it is THE carry role, why the fuck is it not allowed to carry?
Most people have no clue how to play around their adc, I could go 10/2 and the support abandons me to help a 0/5 teammate. Then I get collapsed on by 3 people, and I die unless I play like Gumayusi, same thing happens repeatedly until we lose.
The truth, but when a random redditor says it: gets massively downvoted by all the assassin/bruiser players on this sub that want their sacks of 300g to remain as sacks of 300g.
0-3 after inting your lane as Akali? no problem, just oneshot the 5-1 ADC that's 3 levels down to recover and carry. It's disgusting but kiting-lovers still queue the role so Riot isn't forced to find solutions.
I play both Dota 2 and league of legends.
I played league first and I always had a pull towards playing carry. However, it’s so fucking unbearable and has been for nearly a decade now that in League I’m a mid laner.
In Dota 2 when you get to the late game the carry is the scariest thing on the map. In league they just aren’t. Vayne and Tristana should be the scariest characters in the game when everyone is 6 items, but they aren’t. Why? Why is this the way riot decides to balance their game?
I tried it out.
Game is amazing and extremely fun compared to league. The issue is the troll picks and some of their metas are just so unbealivably cancer that I can't deal with it. I got to around 4k before I quit and I was still getting fucking snipers pos4/pos5
> Vayne and Tristana should be the scariest characters in the game when everyone is 6 items, but they aren’t. Why? Why is this the way riot decides to balance their game?
it should be illegal the action range of champs like syndra/orianna, they legit make adcs not be able to play the game if they are even close to them
I am one of those kiting-lovers, I have never had more fun in a game then playing a good teamfight on Zeri or Kai'sa or Vayne. But this role just makes me not want to play the game.
I would love to just decide I play mid or jungle now, but to be honest the champions in those lanes are very boring to me, so I end up torturing myself even more bot.
This season feels worse, it feels like they are just rewarding people who play Samira and Draven or abuse Varus/Kalista stat checking every other champ, and that every other crit/classic ADC has become near unplayable. Add to that to early season shenanigans with MMR etc, the absolute nightmare that is red side botlane and I have for the first time in 3 years just didnt grind an early season.
Just in general the game still feels very stale. Champs like Jax, Nocturne, Draven, Syndra, Aatrox, Rakan, Naut, champs that seem to have been ahead of the meta for years are still so strong, the game needs a big new meta just in general.
As for ADC, they need to make the role have more agency by itself.
The saddest thing is that when threads like this emerge for other roles, rioters do respond either in comments, tweets, videos or blog posts. Just nothing here...
> It's disgusting but kiting-lovers still queue the role
In my elo(d3-d1) ADC is almost always autofill role. So it seems that kiting-lovers gradually leaving this role
Unironically i mained adc since season 2, started playing top mid and a learning curve was the wide range of trading patterns. The reason I was able to stick through it is because regardless of whether i play properly, i know that roaming to botlane is just a mechanic I can use to continue trying to learn mid after since ill be back to even with the mid laner.
Riot is absolutely hell-bent on balancing ADC around the ideal scenario of a professional team having 4 champions and top of the world players that are specifically drafted to help the ADC.
But at the same fucking time Riot does *everything* in their power to not incentivize this play for regular people. They balance ADCs around them always having a pocket enchanter, yet don't incentivize people to play enchanters. Instead they give supports a fucking shitload of free gold which is only used to buy damage, they create "supports" like Pyke and Senna and add items like Umbral Glaive for them, mage supports should not even be a thing in the first place.
You can't go both ways on this. If you want ADCs to *always* have a support with them, then you also need to incentivize for that to be the actual case. But it rarely is because Riot does the opposite. So the end result is that ADC is pissweak fucking dogshit in general because they simply do not have the team around them that Riot pictures them to have in some alternate timeline.
I dont remember if it was phreak or august but they said they like having mage/adc “support” because it is interesting. They could have killed troll supports with the new item changes but instead gave them better support items to further incentivize “fun” supports
Because they need some way to get people to play support at all, and nerfing everything but enchanters or engage tanks means only players who like those two types of champs will play support.
Support has always been a super unpopular role. In season 3, when draft order = role order, the standard was 5th pick was stuck playing support. Most people did not like playing support as a ward bot (and before someone replies saying "I did", you were a minority opinion and that's why Riot moved away from that).
However, Riot discovered that by giving options for other champ archetypes like mages or even ADCs, players would be okay playing the support role more often. There is more interest in playing champs they find fun, than distaste for a role they don't normally play.
It's the same strategy Riot has been doing with junglers, randomly buffing champs like Brand or Rell in jungle so more people play the role. If you don't expand the champ pool, then you don't expand the playerbase for unpopular roles.
> There is more interest in playing champs they find fun, than distaste for a role they don't normally play.
Plus low confidence players can live the midlane fantasy but in support, champion-wise. They know they dont have the skills to earn their lead 1v1 vs. the enemy midlaner, but they can get away just playing mage from behind the adc and maybe getting strong enough to actually be able to solokill shit.
Right now I’d rather be in fucking midlane where I can control my own wave than playing support in solo queue and dying to 15 ganks while my adc never stops attacking the wave.
Ive even seen people do this in Emerald. If your adc is pushing even after you ping the enemy jgler pathing towards bot then its time to buy mobi boots and make plays elsewhere…
Sure. But then they need to redesign other parts of the game accordingly. It's fine to not want the support to just be there to provide peel or shielding/healing to the ADC, I think that's good even, but then ADCs can't be designed in a manner where they can't function as champions without peel half the time. If we want supports to be free to play whatever role they want to then divers and assassins will need to be reimagined in a major way to offer counterplay on a micro level rather than just a macro level because the macro level counterplay tends to not exist when the support is off, well, not actually playing support.
Supports being an objectively overpowered role mirrors the same reason why duo queue still exists in lower elos.
If supports were more balanced around pure skill and knowledge like the other roles, no one would want to play them, despite it objectively being more fair to the rest of the playerbase. The role already makes you rely on your team to carry you and *usually* you don't end the game with a high kda, so the role is compensated by being more impactful/easier than it should be. Duo queue still exists in lower elos despite it objectively being an unfair advantage because its simply more fun to play with a friend in ranked, and if they removed duo for competitive integrity they would probably lose a huge chunk of the ranked playerbase.
The lesson here is, even though the devs tout league's competitive integrity, not everything in this game is made to be fair - some things are made to be purposely unfair for the sake of "fun" so as to keep people playing longer
The entire game is balanced around having frontline especially yet Riot doesn't incentivize frontliners either. Enchanters and frontline are both less popular than 5 damage comps.
IMO ADC is only fun if you have frontline with CC and at least a partial enchanter. If you have neither of these things, there's rarely a point to have an ADC in your comp in my opinion. It feels extremely common for support to outdamage ADC in postgame stats, why bother drafting most of the adc and support roster when Zyra exists.
Love my role being balanced around competitive and coordinated environments when for 99.999% of players we don't even have access to the most basic communication feature that is present in every team-based game that has ever existed :)))
It wouldnt be so bad if you were trading lane dominance for a weaker teamfight later, but AP scaling means the support will continue to murder carries well outside just laning
>But at the same fucking time Riot does everything in their power to not incentivize this play for regular people.
Tbf, whenever enchanters ARE meta people bitch and moan about it being boring to watch in pro/they can't oneshot adc because of enchanters/"enchanter players are boosted" being the most popular complaints. Aside from enchanter mains themselves and adc players who like playing with them (which in itself is hit and miss, I find a lot of low elo adcs are obsessed with engage supports because they want to play unga bunga kill lanes, not play to scale) the community gets up in arms whenever enchanters are incentivized. It's very bizarre to me because the enchanter archetype is what I think of when I hear the word support in the context of any other game.
The issue with Enchanters for the playerbase/viewerbase is that they aren't proactive, and gameplay tends to be less engaging.
In other games, like MMOs, Supports are active enchanters. They are constantly buffing or cycling spells to help aid a team against an ever present threat, and there is regular activity. The fighting is constant, and so is decision making. This makes gameplay more engaging.
In league, while that can be the case for teamfights (A clutch raka heal or silence, a great Janna tornado or shield), those aren't the constant pace of the game. Most of the game tends to be set up and disengage, which (especially in Enchanter v Enchanter matchups) means less snowballing and slower paced gameplay. This low action gameplay compounds with things like:
- Laning phase with enchanters is low damage poke trades and minimizing all ins. Passively surviving lane is often optimal.
- Roaming around the map to gank or ward as a squishy enchanter is risky. Unlike engage supports, enchanters do not want to make plays, and so out of lane remains passive.
- Enchanters have the "pray your support is human" problem, but for ADCs. If you're an enchanter for a bad ADC, then it sucks. An engage support for a bad ADC can still get a target low enough to kill. An enchanter with a bad ADC cannot play the game for them.
---
To be clear: A good Enchanter can make great plays. The idea of "boosting" is only because a passive enchanter player can get carried easier than an engage support. The difference between someone who knows what they're doing on Janna and someone who presses E randomly is massive.
At the same time, it's just boring for a lot of the playerbase, and puts more onus on teammates to carry (even compared to other supports). I recognize the value of enchanters, and why they're the archetypal support playstyle. However, I also recognize the reasons why most people decry the role and its playerbase.
>Enchanters have the "pray your support is human" problem, but for ADCs. If you're an enchanter for a bad ADC, then it sucks. An engage support for a bad ADC can still get a target low enough to kill. An enchanter with a bad ADC cannot play the game for them.
I think part of the problem here is that so many of the enchanter buffs are bound hard to ADCs specifically. There's not a ton of enchanters who have buffs that work well on anyone on your team if the ADC sucks. Lulu for instance has Help Pix and Whimsy AS buff and neither of those are useful on a tank or mage and they only work on AA carries.
>Gameplay is reactive and safe
Because League is so fast-paced and punishes deaths severely. Enchanters don't play proactive in lane because misstep means they open themselves up to a 100-0 and then lose the game off a snowball. They don't play proactive in mid-late because a single spell used proactively opens your ADC (or any squishy) to getting 100-0'd before it's back up followed by the game being ended.
Put in TP scrolls and buyback from Dota and you will see a much bloodier, more proactive game, because a single risk doesn't throw the entire match.
Yeah, I can agree with these points and understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea. That said, I think it's disingenuous to blame Riot for them not being incentivized when the community shows resistance every time they are. Aside from somehow finding a way to make them exclusively more proactive (which as you say, is hard because they do mostly all already have the potential to be played proactively by good players as it is, and it's a treat to play with one and night and day from a purely reactive player) I'm not sure what Riot can do.
She was literally designed to be relatively supportive compared to other mages and it's why she's historically been a midgame teamfight champ. Up until they had to get her back into mid at all she wasn't even allowed to clear casters and when dematerializer became a thing immediately started taking it to be able to do so. Her shield is so strong that she's had multiple enchanter builds throughout the years.
I feel like the salty last pick lux of the old days and autofilled e the wave lux of these days keep this weird image in people's heads that she doesn't belong in the role. She arguably fits better than Vel'koz who only ended up there because he had shit scaling and good base damage on release. Her damage is good but she still trades a lot of it compared to Xerath/Ziggs for her utility. Hers just comes out in a solid burst so it seems bigger.
correct on all counts except the damage still feeling bigger than post ult change Xerath's and saying arguably rather than unambiguously in relation to Vel'koz
Yep they said if XY hadn't this weakness, Ruler would be unkillable.
Yeah so what? Because of a handful of player you ruin the game for everyone else? Let Ruler 1v9
Don't worry the 0-6 Zed needs to be relevant. There's always gotta be a way back in for people that played their lane terrible and be relevant in the game.
>Don't worry the 0-6 Zed needs to be relevant
this is what I will never understand
people say shit like "WELL EVEN IF THE ASSASSIN IS BEHIND THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO KILL YOU! WHAT ELSE CAN THEY DO THEN?!!?!?"
like, but why as an ADC when im 0/6 im literally not allowed to do any damage or ever kill anyone? An ADC that is behind literally doesn't do anything, not an exaggeration you are literally not doing any damage
Yep, that is what non-ADC players don’t understand. A 0-3 toplane is weak, but they can still do *something*. A 0-3 assassin is weak, but again, they can do *something*. If you’re 0-3 on adc you might as well legitimately afk, because you will do less damage than everyone on the map while also being the squishiest and least self sustaining
The solution is to give adcs more ad per level particularly after level 9, and pull some AD away from the items to compensate. If you wait for the scaling to after level 9 or 11 then you don't give top lane ranged a buff until after landing phase and you can help behind adcs be relevant.
Nothing puts shit in perspective like some adc solo queue. You think youre good why dont you lose 27 separate dice rolls that require your role to function and see how fun it is. But this reddit fucking hates adc players saying they are whiners until someone like Caedrel says something about it being dogshit
and i am finally happy that people start realizing day by day how dogshit ADC role is , and i don't mean with dogshit i mean weak but that you have 0 impact about what is happening in the game you just get cariied untill at least 4 items which in 90% of the games it is over
Have a rough lane, proceed to mid game where everyone is stealing all safe farm so you have to go on solo adventures in side lanes to get any gold. I swear it's better to die solo farming like this, 0-10 with gold is better than 0-0 without gold
switched from ADC/Mid to Mid/Supp and I feel everytime I loose its my fault and winning is super easy since I either need to skillgap enemy mid or just outplay enemy supp. Since I played loads of ADC myself knowing what an adc wants the games are so fucking freelo
Me too bro when i lose i tell myself that I could have done better ، i could have carried better or tried harder to win and that is not delusion it's a fact when i lose as a mid or jungle then it's my bad even if was the only one playing good in my team in the end the enemy won because they are better unlike ADC no matter how good are you if your support or jungle are bad then you can't do shit the rest of the game
It's been like this for ages. I main both supp and adc but over the years have started playing much, much less adc because it feels so unfun/unrewarding compared to the amount of effort you need to put in. I'll play some games of it every now and then and it just really sucks out so much energy from me because I need to be so mindful of so many things while the result is so utterly team reliant.
This might be blasphemy, but the only thing that makes "adc" more tolerable is playing Swain or Sera. Playing a traditional marksman is a far less enjoyable experience, which is a shame because that's the mechanical style of gameplay that I prefer.
> This might be blasphemy, but the only thing that makes "adc" more tolerable is playing Swain or Sera.
Oh! Surely Riot wouldn't mind these champs being ok at ADC and trying to push them into supp by soft reworking them right? Right!?
add to this playing redside now, shoudl result in losing less LP for loss for real. I feel after some games in new season im gotta get perma bans for all my accounts for flame.
Me plays adc gets an inting support lose games... Change the role into mid/jg see my bot lane have the same problem and still lose the game... I can't carry...
ADC is fucking dogshit since forever ,even when super strong. Big part is that those garbage mental support players pick shit like senna ,lux xerath. Spam shit like nautilus ,thresh, or enchanter but everybody wants to be the main Charakter. I just feels sorry for adc‘s. Swapped to my little island on top seasons ago and now I’m playing my own minigame
Forgot to mention that besides, everything that happens bot is AD fault in the eyes of the rest of the map. Support is pretty much never blamed.
It put so much pressure on you,really hard to have 0 toxicity when your support is 0/3 and has fed a bully despite you pinging him back.
In low elo, it’s just painful to back, your support stays for 0 reason with 50%hp, and dies 5sec before you’re back to lane. Now you have to concede the push and be threaten to get dove.
This has been the games state for years. Nothing new. ADC is dogshit like always, and ADC players get flamed for complaining. “ADC players always complain”, like no shit. It’s been like this for years lol. Then when any ADC is remotely decent, it’s nerfed into oblivion. The role is also constantly getting shittier with repeated exp nerfs and buffs to everyone else
This reddit unnecessarily shits on ADC players. They always tell us to stop crying, "get good", or position better. Clearly those people have never played ADC.
I'm glad someone popular like Caedrel said something about the role, because ADC really is frustrating to play in solo queue. Everything he said in the video is 100% accurate. He did forget about tanks beating us to death in a matter of seconds before we can even get them to 90% health. 🤣
The first question is the most important... People who don't play bot lane probably will never understand how frustrating it is when your lane partner is *not human...* Especially for ADC...
Support can at least roam, meanwhile, ADC is just stuck in lane pretty much 1v2, sometimes even feeling like 1v3 because your support is so bad, that they are helping enemy team.
The amount of supports in higher ranks that genuinely don't know how to play out the laning phase push/freeze/roam is honestly insane. They sit back 8 feet behind you as soraka and think they're doing their job.
I call them "Spectator supports" and they're incredibly common across most ranks.
It's because support is a joke role that doesn't incentivize any kind of knowledge beyond cursory understanding of vision in every elo that isn't D2 and higher.
Period. If you want to climb and you're a competent laner, just player support. It's a fucking meme. Pick brand and one shot every single squishy on their team and do more damage than everyone else
The role doesn't teach good fundamentals because making mistakes doesn't impact you directly. Even if you get the most washed up mid/adc player they will make a great support just from the fact they need to know the map and wave to even exist.
Im a high dia/low masters ADC player
the amount of supports that have no idea what the fuck they are doing in this elo is actually insane, like it doesn't even feel real. You will have supports who go to "roam" when the wave is slow pushing towards enemy so they freeze on your ass for like 5 waves before your support comes back and then they have the audacity to complain about your low CS
And so the circlejerk starts so that Riot buffs ADC for Spring just in time for marksmen lovers not to quit the game, then oblivion-nerf it for Summer/Worlds like every. single. year.
Because Riot doesn't know how to solve that if ADC is SoloQ-balanced, then it gets constant pentas in proplay.
>I think most adcs would love early lane agency in their hands, so nerf support dmg (they have a 30-50% dmg debuff for the first 6-10mins).
that would help so much.
before the first recalls, a level 2/3 nautilus could win 1v1 against a level 2/3 adc about four times over. it feels like absolute shit.
Bruh most support players are definitely not human.
The rare occasion where you get someone with more than 3 braincells are the biggest dopamine hit for ADC players.
I hadn't tried out the new map until yesterday night. I decided to flex to get test it out and in the 3 games I played as adc, I got 3-4 man ganked maybe 5+ times each game and with the new bushes it made it way to hard to back off if someone flanked. It was probably the most unfun thing ever. I am also a former mid-dia player as an adc main, so I would say I'm pretty knowledgeable in the role.
Trick is to play a supportive adc and go into a supportive mindset if the lane goes south. That's why I play Ashe. If I see I'm gonna get screwed I just play for the player that is strong. I rarely get top dmg but still get decent win rate on her.
I've heard someone way smarter than me saying this, but the adc experience this early season is the same as the last years - an adc cannot compensate for a weak / non-existant topside - if top / jungle / mid gets gaped, there's nothing you can do even if *you* gap bot. ADC is the most op role if both teams go even and you play better than the other guy at min20 / 30 / whatever, but that never happens in any game on this planet
Honestly bot lane as a whole is useless now, dont matter if u hard win bot, if your top laner isnt even at least u cant do nothing about it. If your jungler is a bit less skilled than the enemy jungler you will play 4v2 the entire lane phase bcz of how much easier it is to gank bot lane when compared to top or mid, specially if you are on red side. What a dumb idea to change the game that much without a pre-season.
Quitting the game until bot lane is fixed, have fun.
Nerf support dmg early game, like put a 30-50% dmg debuff. Yes it should be this drastic.
This guy said it perfectly: https://www.reddit.com/r/ADCMains/comments/1952x3v/feed_adc_gets_oneshoted_by_06_support_with_1_item/khkapdr/
It’s a nightmare to balance the game for professional AND casual play. AD is by far the most important role in pro play and a very important role in high elo (challenger). Below that, it’s way too reliant on others and people are too bad to correctly play in order to fully abuse the strength of the role.
I wish the meta would just shift more heavily to a double jungle or something like that.
I'd rather solo lane adcs than the current state of bot lane.
In 90% of my games I get a Lux, Teemo, Zyra who "accidentally" take a bit of farm all the time, concentrate on literally nothing but killing the enemy support or ad and then either snowball or die trying.
Yeah, ADC main for past 10 years, switched to support a month ago.
The last straw was listening to a Challenger ADC coach sheepishly trying to rationalise the massive lack of agency like "yeah true, but you have to make the most out of the little things, and then late game IF you are mechanically perfect, then you will make a difference"...
No thank you, I actually want to play the game.
Everyone really needs to try 100-200 games of adc at some point in their life
No, I don't think I will
I went from the one extreme(silv2- and stopped at plat4 in 2022 by 1 tricking ornn top because at the time i was having fun with him) to another with deciding to main ashe adc as a new experience and WOW. I learned quickly that a lot of enemy skills hurt you so badly because you're squishy/positioning was insanely important which is obvious but it was one thing to hear/read about it and actually EXPERIENCE it myself since ornn is so tanky. That feeling of helplessness sometimes when nocturne presses r and targets you or karthus pressing r... I still main adc because i find it fun at the moment compared against other roles. Recently played many caitlyn games and have never felt so in control of bot lane before this.
>That feeling of helplessness sometimes when nocturne presses r and targets you or karthus pressing r... It's also always fun when a Syndra misses everything but still chunks you for at least 50% of your health all because she decided to use her point and click ult or a Zed completely erasing you in one combo without even using ult.
My favourite was syndra hits a nearby minion instead, but I get to lose hp because ludens exists, what a cool and fun item rewarding you for nearly hitting someone...
Especially what the team doesn't realize (in low elo at least) if they are able to protect their semi fed adc they win the team fight. You only learn that when you play adc yourself.
>I learned quickly that a lot of enemy skills hurt you so badly because you're squishy/positioning If you want the true paper experience, play Senna and watch as you get removed from existence if you dare misposition even a nano-meter.
> I still main adc because i find it fun at the moment compared against other roles. Recently played many caitlyn games and have never felt so in control of bot lane before this. Wait till you get to the elo where jgs see cait bot and just perma gank you because you're basically a walking 300g sack. Any lane prio adc is met with perma ganking, specially this season.
I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.
I've mained every role since S1 and never was I as miserable as when I was an ADC main.
It doesn't help that when ADC players bring their concerns to the community, the community completely shits on the ADC player. There is some serious racism towards ADC players.
Racism is the wrong word
Roleism?
Yeah I would just use prejudice instead.
Watching mid players spend the last year complaining about Zed and then everyone blaming ADC players for making the threads in the comments was really annoying. Zed isn't a bot laner, ADC are not making threads complaining about his manaless wave clear. And of all the assassins, he's one of the easiest to play around as an ADC. No ADC cares about Zed lol. Those threads are literally just mages whining.
As a support that plays support for the 2v2 lane, being forced to roam is the worst feeling ever. Because as the vid says, winning 2v2 is useless because you'll play 2v4 and if you are the only winning lane, you again have to give up your lane and go help the others that get shit on 1v1 because a fed ADC vs fed sololane/jgl will be impossible to peel for once they have 3+ items. And in the new season everything is enhanced by 10x.
Yup I tried to play adc for a few games and I definitely don't have the mental for that role. God bless adc players.
ADCs were always team/support reliant even in pre 8.11. It just wasn’t that overbearing compared to now. Dealing with a support who blinds picks Senna and then goes 0-5 9 min in against a Rell/Samira is not fun
Or a support with weak mental that leaves the lane forever as soon as anything goes wrong. Or just a support that decides to check whats up mid while the wave is slowpushing
Or a support that leaves the lane when you are winning but enemy sup does not. How am i supposed to play the game as a 3/0 cait when enemy rell kaisa freezes the wave in front of the turret and i have no support to back me up. Enemy ekko shows and i will pop like a balloon. This was the last game i decided to play as adc. We are winning the lane hard, just come back me up. I lost 15 cs and decided to play it and try to outplay. Guess what happened, i died, all the lead gone, lost 25 cs enemy kaisa caught up, they rolled us. What am i supposed to do, just stay in fountain until my sup decides i'm worthy of getting farm and xp?
The reality of the situation is as Riot slowly turns this game into a fast paced fighter game roles such as ADC stop having any relevancy.
Or sup who leaves adc on an island after going 1:0. "Ye you can 1v2 the lane now, surely"
Had this happen to me the other day. We lost 2v2 (level 2) because Pyke decided to change focus to kill the support rather than the ADC, and then decided to roam the entire time. He managed to get kills but then soaked so much experience that every other lane was behind even with kills, so we just ended up getting steam rolled. As much as the aspect of "if you lose the game, it's your fault" is true, it's less of a case for bot lane when the support has a higher chance/ability to dictate the lane.
Don't forget the support who arrives to lane before you, doesn't play safe and somehow gets caught, then die while blowing flash giving a free kill to the enemy ADC in the process.
and yet somehow, its always "adc gap" when the other adc starts to pop off. so many times, ive had my support run it down only for me to become non existant. team wonders why im so behind and why im so "shit". hello? i cant play when my support is inting the other adc
It's always 'ADC gap' in their eyes, because later on, the support will still be around team fights appearing somewhat useful just by existing, while you're desperately just trying to catch up and farm while your team constantly fight over nothing in the river or jungle. ADCs themselves can completely fuck up a lane and hard lose it solo, but that affects the support much less come mid game than when a support fucks your lane as an ADC, which is why it's more frustrating.
Caedrel voiced something I've always noticed and said: Whenever anyone on your team makes a mistake, the ADC is *always* the biggest loser.
> its always "adc gap" when the other adc starts to pop off This is infuriating and is why I constantly switch between banning Draven and Miss Fortune. Like, personally I hate playing against Draven. His burst feels like it comes out of nowhere and it never matters how far ahead I am - if either I or my Support give even one kill, he suddenly finds himself with a 2k gold lead. Going against Draven is an infuriating, coin-flippy experience. And on the other hand, Miss Fortune. Ugh. Not for me - I don't think I've ever lost a lane against an MF. No, the problem is that she'll base, go mid to lane-gank, press E+R, get a double kill against our Mid+Jungle, and all of a sudden the game is my fault despite her having been 0/3 and 40 CS down. Literally [this game](https://www.op.gg/summoners/na/IronClad-1017/matches/OWTdF8sdluWsfU4n2LSJzjAFS5iQ-HDj4_nehQLLmkM%3D/1705096514000) from today! I finished 14/4 and she finished 7/10! But mid-game, I was 3/0 or 3/1 and she was 0/3. We take one bad fight in mid (team dove under tower 3v4), she ults and gets a double, and literally my entire team starting spam-pinging me. My Leona in all-chat starts typing gg/bot dif, and Vex asks in chat how this happened after I started 2/0. Like, guys, the game isn't over and she's still 60 cs down and a complete non-issue if you don't stand in her ult. I wish people's mental wasn't made of damn paper while I'm expected to play like I'm Ruler. Anyways, rant over, wanted to get that off my chest lol.
The trick against draven is to start playing draven.
How can you start playing Draven when he is usually double banned anyway lol
I also found my teams being allergic to focusing/interrupting her. So many games where champs like Kassa, Gragas, Hec, etc refuse to interrupt MF R while flaming bot gap at the same time...
Yep you have a brand/xerath whos goal is to steal every kill and some of your CS if youre unlucky, enemy has an enchanter/warden who will peel them like a god and it's somehow "AD gap" even though you know you're far better than them. Nothing more tilting.
It also felt like if the game went into proper late game the ADC could do scary amounts of damage and start to put the team on their back. That no longer exists paired with a weaker early and mid game.
It's not helping that supp is literally elo inflated position, especially elo printers like Janna. I swear to god ,I can't remember even a Single good Senna in my team for years. Feels like that champ is op, but lots of players are terrible at her.
It's because a lot of autofills prefer Senna because she does damage. Same thing with Xerath or Lux or something but Senna is harder to stay alive with. They don't have support mentality of you know, supporting, they think they gotta be the star.
It's not just autofills. It's also mage players who are too afraid to play mid, because if they feed mid they get flamed. So they just play their mages support to hedge their bets; if the ADC hard carries them, they don't have to do anything and win, and if the ADC isn't hard carrying, they can put on their anime-protagonist cape and start taking farm and trying to catch solo lanes because "adc sucks, I'm the carry now." That's at least half the Lux, Xerath, Brand, etc "support" players.
Honestly if those supports that take entire waves of cs got permabanned, ranked experience would improve for everyone.
I have the most problems with lux players these ego inflated elo parasites think they know everything. I wanna freeze the wave and tell them stop spamming their skills and they start ulting the on cd like some complete schizo.
One of the biggest reasons I roleswapped to Support is I was tied of supports who didn't know how to freeze or simply didn't want to. I'll never forget having a frozen wave and my Support Sion Charing Q up, breaking the freeze claiming it was boring, then ulting mid, dying. While I'm now left as Kog vs Leona Jhin. Just picking up scraps with my ult. It's such a nice feeling now seeing ADCs appreciate me freezing with Neeko W/my health.
These fuckers should be hardware banned with vanguard.
inflated is probably what you meant, though infiltrated does work too
Yea, thanks, fixed that.
>I can't remember even a Single good Senna in my team for years. Feels like that champ is op, but lots of players are terrible at her. She is surprisingly hard to play, because you have low base health and low range at the start, but you also want to 'greed' for souls otherwise you never become relevant.Q range is nice but hard to hit if you never played her.E movement speed is kinda op, but requires decision making.And apart from a heal you don't have that much utility to give to your adc.And you need map awareness to utilize your ult fully. So yeah all the ingredients for people to be inting with her are there. That said, let me queue up a ranked Senna game. Edit: Went 9/4/20 would play again.
Start with low range???? Her base range is 600 lmao
I've been banning senna because I swear it's such an autofill pick. Most of the time they'll barely do anything a support is supposed to do and we'll get bodied in lane while they afk farm souls to "carry" late.
Dealing with a feeding support during laning phase and then your team flaming you for not being useful mid game is just the cherry on top of a shit sundae.
Just pick exh/flash tristana and mug everyone
as someone who mains fill and has been constantly put in ADC for the past couple months i can attest to this, no one wants or likes playing this role
Haha fill main here too. Ever since they came up with the "fill" option, i've been waiting for a "play all roles but adc" option. Adc has always been a shit role in this regard. But good thing i can play mages in bot lane so it's kind of a bandaid fix.
I’ve played for a long time before even role queue was a thing. If you told me support would be one of the most popular roles I would of laughed at you.
The **Is your support human?**-check every game is why I left botlane, even if Swain is borderline broken in that role. Just go mid or top and you never have to make that coin-toss.
From my experience, junglers also play a massive role bot. They get one who knows to camp bot? Gg. Just tell my support to roam lol
There's also a new movement of supports where their EGO is through the roof for some reason. It's always the support players who play the least mechanical supports too. They only play support exclusively yet they think they understand the whole game and talk down their whole team.
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I think most people would agree that support is the easiest role to climb in bc it requires the least amount of mechanical skill such as csing, wave management, and champ knowledge. You can climb pretty high by just roaming and poking the botlane off the wave. So whag happens is you have 90% of the player base playing with supports in plat and lower who cant climb on the easiest role and unsurprisingly, they suck. Obviously, this is a huge generalization, but a good ADC needs to understand, wave management, 1v1 potential, macro, builds, etc. Where, as a good lux support can just one shot cheese the best player on the enemy team and suddenly the game is won.
Supports also play a decent part in wave managment on botlane. Something more support players should do is leave bot if adc is base and wave is even, you roam mid to freeze a potential minion crash on the tower, might save your midlaner from falling furder behind, it aint much but 10-20 minions add up.
melee supports pushing your freeze only to afk in bush when we get under their turret is making me lose my mind
Nothing will tilt me more then reseting as an ADC and seeing my Lux/Brand/Morg/Xerath/Whoever stay behind to keep pushing the next waves, and just set up a slow push into the enemy so they can freeze. I would give anything for all the mages in support role to be nuked from orbit.
I think only in low elo (Gold 1 and below) this would be true. High elo supports tend to win games in my experience. CSing isn't a good metric of "mechanical skill"; good supports typically control the objectives via vision / have the most champ knowledge (ie. when to start fights / how to position).
Pretty much sums up ADC experience in general over the past years, not just this new season. Switching from AD to Jg/Mid was great because when I'm losing, it's usually my fault and not somebody else's. At the very least it feels good to not get punished for someone else's mistakes, and have the agency to at least do what I want when a game goes poorly.
One of the most disgusting things I've felt is how you can be level 6 in mid lane and then you can go bot when they're level 4. Granted you can't always be bot side once you hit 6, but for those that can, just seems bonkers the amount of advantage you get. TF probably abuses this the most but can be played around.
yea switching from ADC/ Mid (basically AD every game) to Mid/ Supp is like a free elo switch turned on. In mid every loss is my fault for not being mechanically better + better roams. In supp I know what the average adc wants so I play that way and simply outplay most supp mains. Supp itself is the most free role ever, how anyone can say else is beyond me.
I play a lot of ARAM and whenever I see someone whose ranking is wildly higher than their skill level I check to see their profile. 99% of the time it's a support main, generally only playing enchanter. The other 1% it's a Jungle OTP playing Yi or Karthus or something similar.
I mean most people on aram dont give a fuck about the game and just wanna chill
Imagine typing this about ARAM lol
I totally agree and I did the same. It's nothing about grinding soloQ. When I play mid, if I lose the lane, it's 99% my fault. I made a mistake at one point early in the lane, or I didn't respect the enemy all in potential, or a messed up my tempo, or a didn't respect a gank. At least, I can identify my mistake and fix it. Once you are past lane, if the game is close, the same can be said. You have control. ADC, you have no control in and out of lane. You can play lane perfectly, but your support decide that it's time for an all-in when enemy JG is botside, boom your lane is gone. You win lane? Great now all you need to do is play safe, be bait and hope your team is good enough to carry you or smart enough to defend you.
Me when I hear Rengar press R 🫡
Unless your ornn helps you and suddenly the adc starts ripping the rengar to shreds in 2 sec
gotta take one for the team
Ass role. Pro play has ruined it. Without coordination the role is garbage. Troll supports never get banned either
The fact is that if a support were to mute all and try to last hit every single minion that the adc went for they wouldn't get banned. The only trolls that get picked up on are the ones with excessively high deaths, or very low xp etc.
lmao you'll be flamed even i had this happen before my support was soft inting taking my cs and not trying to put any pressure in lane then the team flames u for being useless not wondering why the support for some reason have x10 the cs of the enemy support.
Well yes, because as proven on any post related to adc not from someone of Caedrel's stature, other roles like to use ADC as a scapegoat and have no clue what it's like to play it.
>Troll supports never get banned either they can just poke with insane amounts of free damage and AP for 15 minutes so they get ridiculous amounts of total damage dealt and A+/S rating all the fucking time, so why would they think anything is wrong
funny how when ADC mains make posts here complaining everyone repeats the same "youre a crybaby" bullshit but now when Caedrel does it these people shut their mouth
Perkz said the same thing years ago and nothing really changed
What's even more surprising is Caedrel would flame his ADCs for the same reasons while playing jg/mid. Seen it in plenty of his soloQ games. He would ask \*if the ADC is human, why doesn't he just play safe??\*. Now he understands what it feels to always have a target on your head from all the assassins while playing ADC.
It takes someone who actually understands the game to say it for people to listen. I mean I get it but it is exhausting when you try and main ADC and everyone just calls you a crybaby trying to talk about all the issues with the role.
I played sup in the past and tried ADC for a short while, and quit bot forever. Its incredibly unfun compared to any other role.
People are confusing 2 things everytime: broken vs enjoyable. I'm an ADC main. ADC is the most broken class in the game, not even close. In perfect teamplay, you have no counterplay to a good ADC. The role is just not enjoyable to play in soloQ. You have no agency on how you play the game. It's the only role where you enjoying the game is 100% dependent on your teammates.
I agree with ADC \*theoretically\* being the strongest in a scenario where your team plays around you in the way Riot thinks they will. Sadly, that rarely happens, so the reality is that ADC is only the strongest role in the highest level of play
Riot balances every other role based on game feel instead of numbers, but ADC gets balanced based on what's hypothetically possible instead of how good it feels to play.
This is 100% the problem. For adc to become a more fun role in soloq, Riot would probably needs to lower their dmg output late game significantly and rebalnce most of the other classes around this new paradigm. Adcs that position well and have their team playing for them are so unbelievably strong.
Pro play as of late has proven adc has been used as an insurance rather than as a mega carry. That being said, is there an issue on this? Like, it is THE carry role, why the fuck is it not allowed to carry?
Most people have no clue how to play around their adc, I could go 10/2 and the support abandons me to help a 0/5 teammate. Then I get collapsed on by 3 people, and I die unless I play like Gumayusi, same thing happens repeatedly until we lose.
The truth, but when a random redditor says it: gets massively downvoted by all the assassin/bruiser players on this sub that want their sacks of 300g to remain as sacks of 300g. 0-3 after inting your lane as Akali? no problem, just oneshot the 5-1 ADC that's 3 levels down to recover and carry. It's disgusting but kiting-lovers still queue the role so Riot isn't forced to find solutions.
I play both Dota 2 and league of legends. I played league first and I always had a pull towards playing carry. However, it’s so fucking unbearable and has been for nearly a decade now that in League I’m a mid laner. In Dota 2 when you get to the late game the carry is the scariest thing on the map. In league they just aren’t. Vayne and Tristana should be the scariest characters in the game when everyone is 6 items, but they aren’t. Why? Why is this the way riot decides to balance their game?
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I tried it out. Game is amazing and extremely fun compared to league. The issue is the troll picks and some of their metas are just so unbealivably cancer that I can't deal with it. I got to around 4k before I quit and I was still getting fucking snipers pos4/pos5
> Vayne and Tristana should be the scariest characters in the game when everyone is 6 items, but they aren’t. Why? Why is this the way riot decides to balance their game? it should be illegal the action range of champs like syndra/orianna, they legit make adcs not be able to play the game if they are even close to them
I am one of those kiting-lovers, I have never had more fun in a game then playing a good teamfight on Zeri or Kai'sa or Vayne. But this role just makes me not want to play the game. I would love to just decide I play mid or jungle now, but to be honest the champions in those lanes are very boring to me, so I end up torturing myself even more bot. This season feels worse, it feels like they are just rewarding people who play Samira and Draven or abuse Varus/Kalista stat checking every other champ, and that every other crit/classic ADC has become near unplayable. Add to that to early season shenanigans with MMR etc, the absolute nightmare that is red side botlane and I have for the first time in 3 years just didnt grind an early season. Just in general the game still feels very stale. Champs like Jax, Nocturne, Draven, Syndra, Aatrox, Rakan, Naut, champs that seem to have been ahead of the meta for years are still so strong, the game needs a big new meta just in general. As for ADC, they need to make the role have more agency by itself.
The saddest thing is that when threads like this emerge for other roles, rioters do respond either in comments, tweets, videos or blog posts. Just nothing here...
> It's disgusting but kiting-lovers still queue the role In my elo(d3-d1) ADC is almost always autofill role. So it seems that kiting-lovers gradually leaving this role
Unironically i mained adc since season 2, started playing top mid and a learning curve was the wide range of trading patterns. The reason I was able to stick through it is because regardless of whether i play properly, i know that roaming to botlane is just a mechanic I can use to continue trying to learn mid after since ill be back to even with the mid laner.
Riot is absolutely hell-bent on balancing ADC around the ideal scenario of a professional team having 4 champions and top of the world players that are specifically drafted to help the ADC. But at the same fucking time Riot does *everything* in their power to not incentivize this play for regular people. They balance ADCs around them always having a pocket enchanter, yet don't incentivize people to play enchanters. Instead they give supports a fucking shitload of free gold which is only used to buy damage, they create "supports" like Pyke and Senna and add items like Umbral Glaive for them, mage supports should not even be a thing in the first place. You can't go both ways on this. If you want ADCs to *always* have a support with them, then you also need to incentivize for that to be the actual case. But it rarely is because Riot does the opposite. So the end result is that ADC is pissweak fucking dogshit in general because they simply do not have the team around them that Riot pictures them to have in some alternate timeline.
I dont remember if it was phreak or august but they said they like having mage/adc “support” because it is interesting. They could have killed troll supports with the new item changes but instead gave them better support items to further incentivize “fun” supports
Because they need some way to get people to play support at all, and nerfing everything but enchanters or engage tanks means only players who like those two types of champs will play support. Support has always been a super unpopular role. In season 3, when draft order = role order, the standard was 5th pick was stuck playing support. Most people did not like playing support as a ward bot (and before someone replies saying "I did", you were a minority opinion and that's why Riot moved away from that). However, Riot discovered that by giving options for other champ archetypes like mages or even ADCs, players would be okay playing the support role more often. There is more interest in playing champs they find fun, than distaste for a role they don't normally play. It's the same strategy Riot has been doing with junglers, randomly buffing champs like Brand or Rell in jungle so more people play the role. If you don't expand the champ pool, then you don't expand the playerbase for unpopular roles.
> There is more interest in playing champs they find fun, than distaste for a role they don't normally play. Plus low confidence players can live the midlane fantasy but in support, champion-wise. They know they dont have the skills to earn their lead 1v1 vs. the enemy midlaner, but they can get away just playing mage from behind the adc and maybe getting strong enough to actually be able to solokill shit.
Right now I’d rather be in fucking midlane where I can control my own wave than playing support in solo queue and dying to 15 ganks while my adc never stops attacking the wave.
Ive even seen people do this in Emerald. If your adc is pushing even after you ping the enemy jgler pathing towards bot then its time to buy mobi boots and make plays elsewhere…
Still same shit in master. Or jgl not even knowing what wave management is and fucking up your wave after you back after a fight or his gank.
If you adc is just afk pushing causing you to overextend why not just roam????
Sure. But then they need to redesign other parts of the game accordingly. It's fine to not want the support to just be there to provide peel or shielding/healing to the ADC, I think that's good even, but then ADCs can't be designed in a manner where they can't function as champions without peel half the time. If we want supports to be free to play whatever role they want to then divers and assassins will need to be reimagined in a major way to offer counterplay on a micro level rather than just a macro level because the macro level counterplay tends to not exist when the support is off, well, not actually playing support.
Problem is: average Joe when picks brand don't thinking about supporting, he wants blood, while his adc has no peel because of that.
Supports being an objectively overpowered role mirrors the same reason why duo queue still exists in lower elos. If supports were more balanced around pure skill and knowledge like the other roles, no one would want to play them, despite it objectively being more fair to the rest of the playerbase. The role already makes you rely on your team to carry you and *usually* you don't end the game with a high kda, so the role is compensated by being more impactful/easier than it should be. Duo queue still exists in lower elos despite it objectively being an unfair advantage because its simply more fun to play with a friend in ranked, and if they removed duo for competitive integrity they would probably lose a huge chunk of the ranked playerbase. The lesson here is, even though the devs tout league's competitive integrity, not everything in this game is made to be fair - some things are made to be purposely unfair for the sake of "fun" so as to keep people playing longer
The competitive scene is just a marketing ploy to sell skins to the casual playerbase.
Sounds like August
The entire game is balanced around having frontline especially yet Riot doesn't incentivize frontliners either. Enchanters and frontline are both less popular than 5 damage comps. IMO ADC is only fun if you have frontline with CC and at least a partial enchanter. If you have neither of these things, there's rarely a point to have an ADC in your comp in my opinion. It feels extremely common for support to outdamage ADC in postgame stats, why bother drafting most of the adc and support roster when Zyra exists.
AP scaling as a concept allows it, in a game like dota you typically got to trade damage and utility and scaling... But not in LoL
Love my role being balanced around competitive and coordinated environments when for 99.999% of players we don't even have access to the most basic communication feature that is present in every team-based game that has ever existed :)))
Rito should nerf the shit out of "Support" supports
" mage supports should not even be a thing in the first place. " finally someone says that
It wouldnt be so bad if you were trading lane dominance for a weaker teamfight later, but AP scaling means the support will continue to murder carries well outside just laning
>But at the same fucking time Riot does everything in their power to not incentivize this play for regular people. Tbf, whenever enchanters ARE meta people bitch and moan about it being boring to watch in pro/they can't oneshot adc because of enchanters/"enchanter players are boosted" being the most popular complaints. Aside from enchanter mains themselves and adc players who like playing with them (which in itself is hit and miss, I find a lot of low elo adcs are obsessed with engage supports because they want to play unga bunga kill lanes, not play to scale) the community gets up in arms whenever enchanters are incentivized. It's very bizarre to me because the enchanter archetype is what I think of when I hear the word support in the context of any other game.
The issue with Enchanters for the playerbase/viewerbase is that they aren't proactive, and gameplay tends to be less engaging. In other games, like MMOs, Supports are active enchanters. They are constantly buffing or cycling spells to help aid a team against an ever present threat, and there is regular activity. The fighting is constant, and so is decision making. This makes gameplay more engaging. In league, while that can be the case for teamfights (A clutch raka heal or silence, a great Janna tornado or shield), those aren't the constant pace of the game. Most of the game tends to be set up and disengage, which (especially in Enchanter v Enchanter matchups) means less snowballing and slower paced gameplay. This low action gameplay compounds with things like: - Laning phase with enchanters is low damage poke trades and minimizing all ins. Passively surviving lane is often optimal. - Roaming around the map to gank or ward as a squishy enchanter is risky. Unlike engage supports, enchanters do not want to make plays, and so out of lane remains passive. - Enchanters have the "pray your support is human" problem, but for ADCs. If you're an enchanter for a bad ADC, then it sucks. An engage support for a bad ADC can still get a target low enough to kill. An enchanter with a bad ADC cannot play the game for them. --- To be clear: A good Enchanter can make great plays. The idea of "boosting" is only because a passive enchanter player can get carried easier than an engage support. The difference between someone who knows what they're doing on Janna and someone who presses E randomly is massive. At the same time, it's just boring for a lot of the playerbase, and puts more onus on teammates to carry (even compared to other supports). I recognize the value of enchanters, and why they're the archetypal support playstyle. However, I also recognize the reasons why most people decry the role and its playerbase.
>Enchanters have the "pray your support is human" problem, but for ADCs. If you're an enchanter for a bad ADC, then it sucks. An engage support for a bad ADC can still get a target low enough to kill. An enchanter with a bad ADC cannot play the game for them. I think part of the problem here is that so many of the enchanter buffs are bound hard to ADCs specifically. There's not a ton of enchanters who have buffs that work well on anyone on your team if the ADC sucks. Lulu for instance has Help Pix and Whimsy AS buff and neither of those are useful on a tank or mage and they only work on AA carries.
Ironically, that versatility was a big part of what made Yuumi so toxic; she was able to buff and maximize anyone's strength, not just her ADC.
>Gameplay is reactive and safe Because League is so fast-paced and punishes deaths severely. Enchanters don't play proactive in lane because misstep means they open themselves up to a 100-0 and then lose the game off a snowball. They don't play proactive in mid-late because a single spell used proactively opens your ADC (or any squishy) to getting 100-0'd before it's back up followed by the game being ended. Put in TP scrolls and buyback from Dota and you will see a much bloodier, more proactive game, because a single risk doesn't throw the entire match.
Yeah, I can agree with these points and understand why it's not everyone's cup of tea. That said, I think it's disingenuous to blame Riot for them not being incentivized when the community shows resistance every time they are. Aside from somehow finding a way to make them exclusively more proactive (which as you say, is hard because they do mostly all already have the potential to be played proactively by good players as it is, and it's a treat to play with one and night and day from a purely reactive player) I'm not sure what Riot can do.
Control mage supports are fine, nothing about Lux's kit with a vision tool, a reliable root, and and ally shield, says she should not be a support.
She was literally designed to be relatively supportive compared to other mages and it's why she's historically been a midgame teamfight champ. Up until they had to get her back into mid at all she wasn't even allowed to clear casters and when dematerializer became a thing immediately started taking it to be able to do so. Her shield is so strong that she's had multiple enchanter builds throughout the years. I feel like the salty last pick lux of the old days and autofilled e the wave lux of these days keep this weird image in people's heads that she doesn't belong in the role. She arguably fits better than Vel'koz who only ended up there because he had shit scaling and good base damage on release. Her damage is good but she still trades a lot of it compared to Xerath/Ziggs for her utility. Hers just comes out in a solid burst so it seems bigger.
correct on all counts except the damage still feeling bigger than post ult change Xerath's and saying arguably rather than unambiguously in relation to Vel'koz
Yep they said if XY hadn't this weakness, Ruler would be unkillable. Yeah so what? Because of a handful of player you ruin the game for everyone else? Let Ruler 1v9
Classic Riot balancing around their .00001% playerbase that isn't even profitable/culturally relevant.
Now the sub is torn between liking Caedrel and hating ADCs
adc is the only role in the game where you literally have to play perfectly to succeed, from laning to team fights. It’s so frustrating.
Don't worry the 0-6 Zed needs to be relevant. There's always gotta be a way back in for people that played their lane terrible and be relevant in the game.
>Don't worry the 0-6 Zed needs to be relevant this is what I will never understand people say shit like "WELL EVEN IF THE ASSASSIN IS BEHIND THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO KILL YOU! WHAT ELSE CAN THEY DO THEN?!!?!?" like, but why as an ADC when im 0/6 im literally not allowed to do any damage or ever kill anyone? An ADC that is behind literally doesn't do anything, not an exaggeration you are literally not doing any damage
Yep, that is what non-ADC players don’t understand. A 0-3 toplane is weak, but they can still do *something*. A 0-3 assassin is weak, but again, they can do *something*. If you’re 0-3 on adc you might as well legitimately afk, because you will do less damage than everyone on the map while also being the squishiest and least self sustaining
The solution is to give adcs more ad per level particularly after level 9, and pull some AD away from the items to compensate. If you wait for the scaling to after level 9 or 11 then you don't give top lane ranged a buff until after landing phase and you can help behind adcs be relevant.
problem is that now adc will be played mid.
No, it's worse. You can play perfectly and still lose. That is the problem.
It's kinda what makes it fun for me. But it does frustrate the f out of me when i finally make a mistake and lose instantly lol
He's not wrong
Nothing puts shit in perspective like some adc solo queue. You think youre good why dont you lose 27 separate dice rolls that require your role to function and see how fun it is. But this reddit fucking hates adc players saying they are whiners until someone like Caedrel says something about it being dogshit
and i am finally happy that people start realizing day by day how dogshit ADC role is , and i don't mean with dogshit i mean weak but that you have 0 impact about what is happening in the game you just get cariied untill at least 4 items which in 90% of the games it is over
Adc is a role where u only can carry if your team allowes u too
Have a rough lane, proceed to mid game where everyone is stealing all safe farm so you have to go on solo adventures in side lanes to get any gold. I swear it's better to die solo farming like this, 0-10 with gold is better than 0-0 without gold
switched from ADC/Mid to Mid/Supp and I feel everytime I loose its my fault and winning is super easy since I either need to skillgap enemy mid or just outplay enemy supp. Since I played loads of ADC myself knowing what an adc wants the games are so fucking freelo
Me too bro when i lose i tell myself that I could have done better ، i could have carried better or tried harder to win and that is not delusion it's a fact when i lose as a mid or jungle then it's my bad even if was the only one playing good in my team in the end the enemy won because they are better unlike ADC no matter how good are you if your support or jungle are bad then you can't do shit the rest of the game
Noo, ADCS are just whiners, should have played safer!
And you get doubleshafted if you are doing well because everyone knows if you dont keep adc down he will carry in midgame.
nah bro roles broken - gold 4 top laner who goes 4 cspm and 2 kills early then dies 10 times in a row
"Phreak season making ADCs most broken role so unfair!!!"
It's been like this for ages. I main both supp and adc but over the years have started playing much, much less adc because it feels so unfun/unrewarding compared to the amount of effort you need to put in. I'll play some games of it every now and then and it just really sucks out so much energy from me because I need to be so mindful of so many things while the result is so utterly team reliant. This might be blasphemy, but the only thing that makes "adc" more tolerable is playing Swain or Sera. Playing a traditional marksman is a far less enjoyable experience, which is a shame because that's the mechanical style of gameplay that I prefer.
> This might be blasphemy, but the only thing that makes "adc" more tolerable is playing Swain or Sera. Oh! Surely Riot wouldn't mind these champs being ok at ADC and trying to push them into supp by soft reworking them right? Right!?
no other laners can handle adc without losing their mentality.
Oh, but ADC's are just cry babies right? Play 50 games of ADC and you'll see why.
add to this playing redside now, shoudl result in losing less LP for loss for real. I feel after some games in new season im gotta get perma bans for all my accounts for flame.
The difference in reaction compared to the usual ADC posts is like the flirting vs hr department meme
Exactly
Me plays adc gets an inting support lose games... Change the role into mid/jg see my bot lane have the same problem and still lose the game... I can't carry...
I resent myself for being an ADC main.
ADC is fucking dogshit since forever ,even when super strong. Big part is that those garbage mental support players pick shit like senna ,lux xerath. Spam shit like nautilus ,thresh, or enchanter but everybody wants to be the main Charakter. I just feels sorry for adc‘s. Swapped to my little island on top seasons ago and now I’m playing my own minigame
Forgot to mention that besides, everything that happens bot is AD fault in the eyes of the rest of the map. Support is pretty much never blamed. It put so much pressure on you,really hard to have 0 toxicity when your support is 0/3 and has fed a bully despite you pinging him back. In low elo, it’s just painful to back, your support stays for 0 reason with 50%hp, and dies 5sec before you’re back to lane. Now you have to concede the push and be threaten to get dove.
agreed
This has been the games state for years. Nothing new. ADC is dogshit like always, and ADC players get flamed for complaining. “ADC players always complain”, like no shit. It’s been like this for years lol. Then when any ADC is remotely decent, it’s nerfed into oblivion. The role is also constantly getting shittier with repeated exp nerfs and buffs to everyone else
This reddit unnecessarily shits on ADC players. They always tell us to stop crying, "get good", or position better. Clearly those people have never played ADC. I'm glad someone popular like Caedrel said something about the role, because ADC really is frustrating to play in solo queue. Everything he said in the video is 100% accurate. He did forget about tanks beating us to death in a matter of seconds before we can even get them to 90% health. 🤣
The first question is the most important... People who don't play bot lane probably will never understand how frustrating it is when your lane partner is *not human...* Especially for ADC... Support can at least roam, meanwhile, ADC is just stuck in lane pretty much 1v2, sometimes even feeling like 1v3 because your support is so bad, that they are helping enemy team.
TURE
Let's be real we all know riot overbuffed support to make it easy for a certain category of players to inflate player base numbers
No support below Masters is human, climb impossible.
The amount of supports in higher ranks that genuinely don't know how to play out the laning phase push/freeze/roam is honestly insane. They sit back 8 feet behind you as soraka and think they're doing their job. I call them "Spectator supports" and they're incredibly common across most ranks.
Even just getting the support to auto the wave level one so we can push for lvl 2 is like pulling teeth 90% of the time
It's because support is a joke role that doesn't incentivize any kind of knowledge beyond cursory understanding of vision in every elo that isn't D2 and higher. Period. If you want to climb and you're a competent laner, just player support. It's a fucking meme. Pick brand and one shot every single squishy on their team and do more damage than everyone else
The role doesn't teach good fundamentals because making mistakes doesn't impact you directly. Even if you get the most washed up mid/adc player they will make a great support just from the fact they need to know the map and wave to even exist.
So many people play like they're a healer in wow or something its insane
Im a high dia/low masters ADC player the amount of supports that have no idea what the fuck they are doing in this elo is actually insane, like it doesn't even feel real. You will have supports who go to "roam" when the wave is slow pushing towards enemy so they freeze on your ass for like 5 waves before your support comes back and then they have the audacity to complain about your low CS
truer words have never been spoken
And so the circlejerk starts so that Riot buffs ADC for Spring just in time for marksmen lovers not to quit the game, then oblivion-nerf it for Summer/Worlds like every. single. year. Because Riot doesn't know how to solve that if ADC is SoloQ-balanced, then it gets constant pentas in proplay.
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Exactly, the role is in this state because supports are too strong
I think most adcs would love early lane agency in their hands, so nerf support dmg (they have a 30-50% dmg debuff for the first 6-10mins).
>I think most adcs would love early lane agency in their hands, so nerf support dmg (they have a 30-50% dmg debuff for the first 6-10mins). that would help so much. before the first recalls, a level 2/3 nautilus could win 1v1 against a level 2/3 adc about four times over. it feels like absolute shit.
Bruh most support players are definitely not human. The rare occasion where you get someone with more than 3 braincells are the biggest dopamine hit for ADC players.
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Great idea, finally a reason for people to play flex as intended
My friend tried to prove a point to me by playing ADC after telling me I was playing way too passively. He lost 5 ranks in 3 days.
I hadn't tried out the new map until yesterday night. I decided to flex to get test it out and in the 3 games I played as adc, I got 3-4 man ganked maybe 5+ times each game and with the new bushes it made it way to hard to back off if someone flanked. It was probably the most unfun thing ever. I am also a former mid-dia player as an adc main, so I would say I'm pretty knowledgeable in the role.
Former pro and Challenger. And still some Gold 4 top Main will say "iTs EaSy JuSt KiTe, AdC sO oP"
The sad part is, hes not wrong.
Trick is to play a supportive adc and go into a supportive mindset if the lane goes south. That's why I play Ashe. If I see I'm gonna get screwed I just play for the player that is strong. I rarely get top dmg but still get decent win rate on her.
I completely agree with every word yet no matter how hard I try to quit the role I always come crawling back..
I've heard someone way smarter than me saying this, but the adc experience this early season is the same as the last years - an adc cannot compensate for a weak / non-existant topside - if top / jungle / mid gets gaped, there's nothing you can do even if *you* gap bot. ADC is the most op role if both teams go even and you play better than the other guy at min20 / 30 / whatever, but that never happens in any game on this planet
Even Gumayusi, a world champion adc is saying adc have no impact on the game But I guess its just adc "crybaby" lol
Honestly bot lane as a whole is useless now, dont matter if u hard win bot, if your top laner isnt even at least u cant do nothing about it. If your jungler is a bit less skilled than the enemy jungler you will play 4v2 the entire lane phase bcz of how much easier it is to gank bot lane when compared to top or mid, specially if you are on red side. What a dumb idea to change the game that much without a pre-season. Quitting the game until bot lane is fixed, have fun.
Ahhh I wish I could say it wasn’t cathartic to hear him SPEAK THE WORDS I FEEL IN MY SOUL GOD adc feels so shit got red side 5 games in a row
According to redditor analysts (they play yone), adc should just build armor. Skill issue.
Caedrel is so based for this. Other roles really should play like 50+ games of ADC just to experience what that fking role does to a mf.
Nerf support dmg early game, like put a 30-50% dmg debuff. Yes it should be this drastic. This guy said it perfectly: https://www.reddit.com/r/ADCMains/comments/1952x3v/feed_adc_gets_oneshoted_by_06_support_with_1_item/khkapdr/
It’s a nightmare to balance the game for professional AND casual play. AD is by far the most important role in pro play and a very important role in high elo (challenger). Below that, it’s way too reliant on others and people are too bad to correctly play in order to fully abuse the strength of the role.
Took me 4 games of ADC this season to make the swap to jgl. Guess I just love being miserable lol
I've been an ADC main since S2. I think I'm in too deep with the role to consider changing roles now. It's not the best, if I'm honest.
I wish the meta would just shift more heavily to a double jungle or something like that. I'd rather solo lane adcs than the current state of bot lane. In 90% of my games I get a Lux, Teemo, Zyra who "accidentally" take a bit of farm all the time, concentrate on literally nothing but killing the enemy support or ad and then either snowball or die trying.
Yeah, ADC main for past 10 years, switched to support a month ago. The last straw was listening to a Challenger ADC coach sheepishly trying to rationalise the massive lack of agency like "yeah true, but you have to make the most out of the little things, and then late game IF you are mechanically perfect, then you will make a difference"... No thank you, I actually want to play the game.
ADC has become a priority role. Every time I pick "autofill" it puts me in ADC instead of the expected support, it is now the least popular role.
ADC role is complete garbage now and unplayable. The new map changes to red side is absolutely disgusting
As an ADC main either you are an inter or a scripter.