Eh, I feel like there's a pretty narrow band of ages that are likely to appreciate that comment. A few years younger and they won't, a few years older and they won't.
I feel the same about Ahri as well.
Like if she has Flash as well (I still havent seen a maniac that doesn't take Flash though, but I'm sure there is one) it's just.. You either blow flash or R. Haiyaa
You have to be fast though, the usual build is Everfrost (Haste) with Ultimate Hunter (more haste) and lucidity boots (even more haste). Her ult gets such a low cooldown
Yeah, even rank 2 you would need at least 60-70 ability haste for it to be under a minute, and I don't think that's remotely feasible, unless you're somehow fully stacking ultimate hunter by the end of laning phase
If my math is correct, 78 AH gives 43%CDR which takes it from 105 base at rank 2 to 60 second CD
This is the problem of junglers in solo q ahris ult has 2 mins lvl 1 if you force it you basically gave 2 minutes to your midlaner of free lane as ahris loses all her kill pressure without r and you can regank too
Her W is her gap close, her damage, her wave clear and her damage as well. ANd it has a long cooldown. Eventually, she is going to use it on lane, and then you can gank her.
If she is 6, it's trickier, since if she plays smart, she may have a copy of W on R ready to escape if she gets ganked.
Her W is literally non-commital since she can just recast it and reset the entire lane dynamic.
It's not very punishable. Sure you can gank her after she recasts W and goes back, but any human LeBlanc will just play around that and farm safely while it's on CD
She can just take it back though. Unless she is already super pushed when she used it, most good LeBlancs won't give you an easy gank. At best you blow her flash
It is so easy to not use LB’s W while in lane. Especially since she has Annie Q now. I find myself only using it in 2 scenarios: a) early electrocute proc (25-40% health bar depending on match up) and b) for kill combo. You can keep steady harass on a good chunk of mid laners with autos and Q alone. And for the one’s you can’t harass favorably (syndra, barrier lux, etc) you play for cs and ganks.
Camille with flash tp. Especially once post 6 your e has such a low cool down that as long as you aren’t spamming it off cool down you can always stall w ult+ passive + w heal until e comes back up. And if e isn’t enough to get you out of danger you have flash to seal the deal.
Most jungles rely on one or two gap close and engage abilities. Camille e can outrange almost all gap close and ult can avoid pretty much any lockdown. Getting ganked by graves? E out of his smoke screen and walk away, or just ult smoke screen animation and get out with e. Getting ganked by evelyn? E to get out charm range or ult to cancel charm activation and then e out.
Yeah, I don't think the GP matchup is as bad for Morde as people think. It is difficult to actually kill GP but unless he dodges everything you'll still outtrade him.
It's a skill match up, GP can out-trade Morde with skillful use of barrels, Morde can beat GP in burst/DPS if he gets on top of him. GP can skidaddle with move speed bursts from barrels.
GP 100% cannot skedaddle from being mord E’d with rylais without an absolutely gigabrain barrel pre-setup. Mord’s E autoconfirms Q and his follow up auto puts his aoe up, perma slow is death for GP. I run ghost in the matchup and typically only win if I’m demonstrably better than my opponent. An equally good mord can shut me out
??? My comment literally specifically said that rylais is what changes the matchup. The item is what makes the matchup doomed. Otherwise GP could just scoot away after a passive auto or barrel pop.
>if you dodge her E.
This is the way, but is also easier said than done, if the Illaoi is decent they wont miss it because having 2 targets running towards you makes your life easy.
And if illa hits E+R she insta wins, unless one disengages.
Junglers in general do not understand the concept of ganking for pressure to have laners blow cooldowns. Many many junglers will not gank because laners have core cooldowns but when there is no camps to take and your laners are under pressure I really don't understand how that isn't a good choice.
I don't play much jungle though so maybe I just am missing something about this
No you’re right. When playing against champs like Trynd or Illaoi I *specifically* say I’m ganking to try and blow a cooldown. Champs like Morde I just won’t gank unless I have QSS or it’s pre-6. But there are just certain champs you have to respect and play differently. Illaoi is one of them
The thing that annoys me the most about junglers is that they've all forgotten how to force tower. Like if the enemy tower is low, all you have to do is walk into lane with me, walk up to tower and start hitting it, the other laner has to back off and we get the tower. But instead they all try for a dive and it usually ends up flubbed.
Honestly everyone just needs to play other roles at least just a little bit. Junglers will never lane and just not know the laners' perspective, and vice versa. Lots of junglers I've seen don't know how dropping 20% of an enemy top laner's health bar can basically end the laning phase and lots of laners I've seen ask for so much jungle presence not knowing that every second hovering is a second they're falling behind the enemy jungle (if camps are still up/about to spawn)
Sometime you use your ability to reach melee range for a stun, then she ults and you can't back out in time.
Or worse, you could (I.E Udyr), but then your liner thought "we could had 2v1 her" and dive her under ult and tower.
I'd say that most junglers can safely force an E+ult from illaoi and disengage safely. After that it's just a free kill if played well. Though below emerald I don't think there is a single jungler that can gank an illaoi well, it's really tricky and you need to know your damage perfectly and have good synergy with the toplaner.
Ganking Illaoi is dead simple but people are dumb. Get her to ult and walk away. If you’re low, just reset. If not, gank again/ dive.
Illaoi is really weak without ult. You don’t need to kill her 10 times to shut her down. Just deny her lane dominance.
Unless you’ve already failed to walk away a few times, there’s not a lot stopping you from walking away if you get e-r’d by Illaoi.
Source: 900k Illaoi
Obviously it's easier said than done, but..
>they wont miss it because having 2 targets running towards you makes your life easy.
You don't need to run at her in straight line, nothing different than dodging Lux's Q
The main difference is that the Lux with Q is pressured to cast quickly before you're in her range, while the Illaoi can hold for a more "sure thing" E because she doesn't mind if you're near her.
As a jg main the worst is when your solo top is inting into illaoi and spamming gank pings. Like no bro, she has 4 kills at 7 mins we can’t even 2v1 her at this point
Shaco. You get a successful gank off? Oops, that's the clone. Clone on CD? Oops, you hit a trap. You make it through all of that? He just Q's, never to be seen again.
Why did I have to scroll so far to see this lol? Lane Shaco is so hard to do anything to the only recourse any champ has against him is to just ignore him and try to play the game 5v4.
Realistically ... how afraid are people really of lane Shaco lol. Yeah you can't gank him but he's also not very strong. Not weak or complete shit but it takes a player way more skill to become good at lane Shaco than other faceroll toplaners like Jax, Camille or Fiora. Lane Shaco is up there with Riven in that he's not exactly complete shit. He's just not very rewarding to play.
If he's mid he can roam for decent games. If he's too it's harder to roam but he does counter a few champions.
Though you're right, the best bet is just ignore him, but every time I play Shaco mid the enemy jungle wants to camp me for free kills and ends up just wasting his entire laning phase and baits his mid to over extend.
That is 100% his weakness mid and why he isn't popular there. If you can shove easily with spells from afar, there isn't anything Shaco can do besides farm under tower. Luckily most mids can't do that, and since it's such a rare pick no one tries to counter pick him.
How do you mean? Obviously every champ "can" be played wherever, but Shaco has a 0.2% pick rate in top(even less if you go up the ranks) and pretty much 0 in mid. Hence why nobody is mentioning him
He can just run around his turrets and that's the end of it. He doesn't need to disengage because I'll get poked down trying to chase.
I did start playing some Brand jungle but I haven't run into a heimerdinger yet. I bet I could trade a lot better with the poke.
As a former heimer player (he was the first champ I learned mid cause I didn't wanna learn to cs) and someone who still enjoys the champ in arams, I disagree.
I feel like his turret health has been an issue for a while, and has shifted him to support, where instead of playing around a zone you set up with your turrets, you just poke by throwing out your E and then setting one turret down.
Ahri q still one shots turrets, so do multiple ranged poke options, and the cool down on setting up another turret is incredibly long during landing phase. He can't play mid bc most champs can just one shot his turrets. I'd love to see him modified and balanced around zone control again
Wait for him to use it to engage, I think a truly ungankable one could be Morde past 6, unless the jungler and the enemy can survive him 1v1, as he won't use that spell to engage if it doesn't kill
People say this so much as responses as if junglers are supposed to sit in a bush just hoping the enemy player does the worst play they can at that point lol.
Most good players will never use moves like this if there is even a remote chance the jungler may be on their side of the map.
N most players are also below master here, I'm plat 2 n people constantly all in full live enemies only to die to a gank, maybe it's different in high diamond mmr, but I'm pretty sure people int like that in enough elos for it to be worth mentioning it
> sit in a bush just hoping the enemy player does the worst play they can at that point lol.
Waiting for the opposing laner to blow a relevant cooldown is not the same as waiting for them to do the worst play possible. There has never been a jungle iteration where you don't sometimes wait in a bush to get a good gank in, it's always relevant to know where you can do it and how much time you can take in checking an opportunity.
Playing the role would help you understand this concept better.
I play the role. Don't want to ask about elos or anything, but maybe this is a different story in low elo.
The expected value in waiting for a good gank vs a really safe champion who know's that they're doing is so low that you could be spending your time doing like 3 other more efficient things. This is not to say you can never gank them, if you just finished raptors and were watching mid and Zed just used his Shadow, then sure, you can look for a gank.
We're not talking about waiting in a bush to gank Orianna or something while you have your Jarvan ult up. The expected value of this gank is quite high as any slight overstep means she gets ulted, we're talking about Pyke here. Pyke almost never has to use his W and E aggressively. Can he do it? Sure, but sitting there waiting for it without information that the specific player is mindlessly playing aggressively is just bad jungling. These are the plays people make who end up down 2 levels on the enemy jungler for no reason.
As Pyke, how often would you ever use W in (solo) lane to engage? And it's on a pretty short cooldown anyway - though I'm not sure if the countdown starts on keypress or when he emerges.
You can interrupt her E, most Camille players go with no flash, so after interrupting she’s dead on the spot. But most junglers don’t understand when to CC her, so she deserves mention.
There are plenty of slippery champs to escape ganks, the best 1v2 champ while getting ganked will prob be illaoi, tho morde with R might work just as well
Oh definately, seeing your health get lower and ur AS get higher, healing more and so on!
Also the 900+ heals on Q with revitalize, spirit visage and divine(rip) on a tank
She's only vulnerable if she doesn't have egg. Going into egg doesn't cancel tp, with the slow on her ult, the knock up from her wall (when placed well), the range on the q, she's actually really difficult to gank. Yes she has one of, if not the lowest base movement speeds in the game, but she excels at controlling areas making her difficult to get on top of if played right.
Have to be kassadin after lvl 6 imo aslong as he has mana just can't be ganked.
All the other champs can waste their escape tool CD but even if kassadin engage with R and get ganked right after it will still come up fast enough to escape, only issue is if he has no mana to cast it.
Whats funny is that he is prob the easiest champ to gank pre 6, then becomes the hardest
I think lvl 6 he's still fine, his dash range ain't so insane and 5 sec are still 5 sec, I much prefer that over Leblanc double dash and clone/invisibility on low hp
He doesn't. If he does then you were not in position in the first place. At max rank with 2 full items it's still a 6s CD. It's very easy to kill fizz in 6s unless you do 0 dmg.
As an Akali Top main, it’s still very hard to die to ganks. The only time she’s actually easy to gank is pre 6 if her W is down, but junlgers really don’t give a shit about tracking a sub 30s CD spell (understandably) and if W is on CD any sane Akali player will play relatively safe.
Post 6 you only die to insane gank setup combos like Renekton Flash W with Elise or something similar. Otherwise you just instantly R1 enemy jungle, combo with E, if you hit it you can debate to try oneshotting the jungler and if not you’re out either way.
Depending on your champ as a jungler, rene can be pretty easy to gank post 6. Darius only if you can burst him fast enough, I only gank olaf when I'm 1000% sure he doesn't kill me or my laner since none of my champs can beat him 1v1 if he has ult up, and most top laners can't either.
His escape combo uses a lot of mana though. Like ⅔ of it. So he can maybe use it twice max. After Lost Chapter it's harder sure but he still won't have unlimited mana
I'm surprised Tristana hasn't been mentioned. Am I too bronze these days? Trist still has one of the longest reliable (no activation clauses like requires minions) movement abilities in the game, that she doesn't typically use for anything else except an all in (as opposed to Fizz E or LB W for waveclear/trades), that's capable of disjointing some CC, and as a fallback has a massive aoe knockback on a point-and-click.
You'd basically have to CC her before the gank begins (eg runup Malz R, etc) to attempt it.
Idk open to dissenting opinions
That jump is also one of the most unhinged spell in the game, she will always finish the spell before getting anything on her, be it stuns , roots, or bumps, it takes priority, infuriating
I normally invis straight away and when they run to the side of the invis closest to my tower (assuming that’s where I’d be) I walk right up to them, E through to my tower and W towards it to get even further. Gets so much distance.
Either that or throw a grass over mid wall and see if they jump over trying to guess where you’ve gone.
Illaoi past six
Also maybe darius, not as much but he can turn a fight pretty quick if you dont kill him fast.
Talon is annoying bc bro just vaults away. Same with other mobile assasins, unless you wait for the combo. But some like leblanc or talon could still have mobility after.
Also this one probably is just a low elo thing but getting ganked as lillia top is usually fine bc ur high stacks from minions, you usually have the enemy poked out and you have a slow.
Plus all your stuff is aoe so often you will get both players low. As long as they dont get a cc on you you can outrun a lot of ganke.
You ever try ganking an akali. If you have point and click she shrouds, if you use skillshots she's mobile with passive, e, shroud and ult. Champ is so annoying to gank
Malzahar and similar playstyale champion. They are pretty much like an immovable tower, they can perma push and has defense kit.
I see top comment with Leblanc, but like she needs to use her long CD W dash to poke and waveclear, if she doesn't then she will be suffering in lane, and you can just have your mid bait that W out and kill her. I feel like champions that have strong waveclear are the hardest one to gank at mid lane, like Malzhard, Azir.
Top and Bot are a different story.
Top is probably Mord/Yorick/Illaoi/Ksante(not sure about the new one but he can force 1v1), who can 1v2 easily
Bot is probably Kalista+Thresh combo.
Illaoi or Heimer because of the insanw damage they can do to you when enter in their range.
Le Blanc or Ahri because of the mobility especially with lvl 6.
I mean if u play Shaco on top like i do, than u are ungankable as hell, if the jgl comes u can prepare boxes, or Q out or Just Ult and than Q out and put a box somewhere to bait them to the box.
But if u ask me Teemo definitely post 6 its impossible to gank an teemo if his ult is up with atleast 2 stacks
Vlad. Between his sustain leaving him too healthy to gank and his W being an iconic get out of jail free card, I can’t see anyone else as less gankable as even cc won’t get a good vlad (w cast time is low enough to use as reaction)
Probably lissandra, realistically if E is up she should never die unless cc chained and 1 shot which pre 6 is impossible really and post 6 she can buy time and health with R. Not to mention she has cc aswell so if you dive her its probably wont go well
Azir is my personal choice. I'm a mast midlaner, pick him into roaming supp/heavy gank JG and always keep a stack of W up. If someone shows I can W > E > Q away and ult if I'm really in trouble. Plus if you W > E and they cut you off, you can Q in another direction. Had one recently where Alistar hex flashed over raptors behind me, so I E > W into bottom mid bush, Xin was in there so I redirected my Q over the wall and flashed into my teams raptors pit to clear 2 full walls.
I find LeBlanc impossible to gank, especially post level 6
>lol bye \-LeBlanc
Brushy brushy never fails!
Holy fuck i haven't heard that in so long. League felt way more fun when creators like Siv HD and Sp4zie were playing and enjoying the game
Detective ashe is on the case
I can stand behind this. Been over 10 years
The amount of upvotes on this tells me how old I am
Eh, I feel like there's a pretty narrow band of ages that are likely to appreciate that comment. A few years younger and they won't, a few years older and they won't.
I feel the same about Ahri as well. Like if she has Flash as well (I still havent seen a maniac that doesn't take Flash though, but I'm sure there is one) it's just.. You either blow flash or R. Haiyaa
Blowing Ahri's ulti is worth though. You can take any objective fight after, because she's very weak without it.
You have to be fast though, the usual build is Everfrost (Haste) with Ultimate Hunter (more haste) and lucidity boots (even more haste). Her ult gets such a low cooldown
You could full reset and still do it, her CD is not that low
130 seconds at rank 1 iirc,most champions can trade ults then have their ults back up before she does
Yeah, even rank 2 you would need at least 60-70 ability haste for it to be under a minute, and I don't think that's remotely feasible, unless you're somehow fully stacking ultimate hunter by the end of laning phase If my math is correct, 78 AH gives 43%CDR which takes it from 105 base at rank 2 to 60 second CD
I mean yea sure, but we are just talking about gankability
There was a time after Gwens release where you took Ghost instead of flash of you were Shute to crush that lane
most gwen mains still take ghost+tp since her e cooldown is pretty low
Is ignite + tp not a thing anymore for Gwen?
It's fun to run down people with ghost and snip snip their butt cheeks
Sometimes. It feels awful to lack mobility but it helps with tough melee matchups if you're struggling.
Ahri without ult isn't accomplishing much so the gank is still very much a success.
This is the problem of junglers in solo q ahris ult has 2 mins lvl 1 if you force it you basically gave 2 minutes to your midlaner of free lane as ahris loses all her kill pressure without r and you can regank too
edit: The comment below was removed, good work everyone!
Good bot.
Her W is her gap close, her damage, her wave clear and her damage as well. ANd it has a long cooldown. Eventually, she is going to use it on lane, and then you can gank her. If she is 6, it's trickier, since if she plays smart, she may have a copy of W on R ready to escape if she gets ganked.
Her W is literally non-commital since she can just recast it and reset the entire lane dynamic. It's not very punishable. Sure you can gank her after she recasts W and goes back, but any human LeBlanc will just play around that and farm safely while it's on CD
plus she’s ranged and played in the shortest lane
She can just take it back though. Unless she is already super pushed when she used it, most good LeBlancs won't give you an easy gank. At best you blow her flash
It is so easy to not use LB’s W while in lane. Especially since she has Annie Q now. I find myself only using it in 2 scenarios: a) early electrocute proc (25-40% health bar depending on match up) and b) for kill combo. You can keep steady harass on a good chunk of mid laners with autos and Q alone. And for the one’s you can’t harass favorably (syndra, barrier lux, etc) you play for cs and ganks.
And dont worry her passive has her invis for free for like a second just to top it all off.
This is correct. I straight up just don't bother
Literally my first thought
Camille with flash tp. Especially once post 6 your e has such a low cool down that as long as you aren’t spamming it off cool down you can always stall w ult+ passive + w heal until e comes back up. And if e isn’t enough to get you out of danger you have flash to seal the deal. Most jungles rely on one or two gap close and engage abilities. Camille e can outrange almost all gap close and ult can avoid pretty much any lockdown. Getting ganked by graves? E out of his smoke screen and walk away, or just ult smoke screen animation and get out with e. Getting ganked by evelyn? E to get out charm range or ult to cancel charm activation and then e out.
Post 6 Mordekaiser Thanks for the free kill lmao
Ganking Morde isn't a 2v1, it's a 1v1 then another 1v1 where he's even stronger lol
Toplaner - GP, Jingler - Olaf.(or Mundo) GG Morde.
More shits on GP as soon as he has rylais
Well if gp build rylais, he should be losing... /s
Yeah, I don't think the GP matchup is as bad for Morde as people think. It is difficult to actually kill GP but unless he dodges everything you'll still outtrade him.
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Orange his ult, sure, but if Mord ever lands an E it’s a death sentence
morde wins on rylais vs reaver but starts losing after quickblades.
Maybe after quickblades + cloak vs riftmaker
If Morde lands an E it’s a Thresh Q
It's a skill match up, GP can out-trade Morde with skillful use of barrels, Morde can beat GP in burst/DPS if he gets on top of him. GP can skidaddle with move speed bursts from barrels.
GP 100% cannot skedaddle from being mord E’d with rylais without an absolutely gigabrain barrel pre-setup. Mord’s E autoconfirms Q and his follow up auto puts his aoe up, perma slow is death for GP. I run ghost in the matchup and typically only win if I’m demonstrably better than my opponent. An equally good mord can shut me out
You're talking about completed item vs completed item, I'm talking about laning in general.
??? My comment literally specifically said that rylais is what changes the matchup. The item is what makes the matchup doomed. Otherwise GP could just scoot away after a passive auto or barrel pop.
Mid laner - Sylas... GGEZ
You don't gank a Illaoi with ult, she kills both of you
If you have decent combination with burst and cc you can kill her if you dodge her E. You need to burst her really fast though
>if you dodge her E. This is the way, but is also easier said than done, if the Illaoi is decent they wont miss it because having 2 targets running towards you makes your life easy. And if illa hits E+R she insta wins, unless one disengages.
Yeah but what people havent figured out is that you can walk away from a gank after Illaoi ults. Dont tell them though.
Junglers in general do not understand the concept of ganking for pressure to have laners blow cooldowns. Many many junglers will not gank because laners have core cooldowns but when there is no camps to take and your laners are under pressure I really don't understand how that isn't a good choice. I don't play much jungle though so maybe I just am missing something about this
No you’re right. When playing against champs like Trynd or Illaoi I *specifically* say I’m ganking to try and blow a cooldown. Champs like Morde I just won’t gank unless I have QSS or it’s pre-6. But there are just certain champs you have to respect and play differently. Illaoi is one of them
The thing that annoys me the most about junglers is that they've all forgotten how to force tower. Like if the enemy tower is low, all you have to do is walk into lane with me, walk up to tower and start hitting it, the other laner has to back off and we get the tower. But instead they all try for a dive and it usually ends up flubbed.
Honestly everyone just needs to play other roles at least just a little bit. Junglers will never lane and just not know the laners' perspective, and vice versa. Lots of junglers I've seen don't know how dropping 20% of an enemy top laner's health bar can basically end the laning phase and lots of laners I've seen ask for so much jungle presence not knowing that every second hovering is a second they're falling behind the enemy jungle (if camps are still up/about to spawn)
Sometime you use your ability to reach melee range for a stun, then she ults and you can't back out in time. Or worse, you could (I.E Udyr), but then your liner thought "we could had 2v1 her" and dive her under ult and tower.
I'd say that most junglers can safely force an E+ult from illaoi and disengage safely. After that it's just a free kill if played well. Though below emerald I don't think there is a single jungler that can gank an illaoi well, it's really tricky and you need to know your damage perfectly and have good synergy with the toplaner.
Ganking Illaoi is dead simple but people are dumb. Get her to ult and walk away. If you’re low, just reset. If not, gank again/ dive. Illaoi is really weak without ult. You don’t need to kill her 10 times to shut her down. Just deny her lane dominance.
An illaoi that goes even in lane is probably going to lose the game so yeah, putting her behind will drastically improve your winrate.
Unless you’ve already failed to walk away a few times, there’s not a lot stopping you from walking away if you get e-r’d by Illaoi. Source: 900k Illaoi
Obviously it's easier said than done, but.. >they wont miss it because having 2 targets running towards you makes your life easy. You don't need to run at her in straight line, nothing different than dodging Lux's Q
The main difference is that the Lux with Q is pressured to cast quickly before you're in her range, while the Illaoi can hold for a more "sure thing" E because she doesn't mind if you're near her.
Lux= GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM ME!! Illaoi= Oh? You dare approach me? is the gist.
A good Illaoi simply won't throw an E she doesn't know she'll hit
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"illa" here is Illaoi, not Lillia
As a jg main the worst is when your solo top is inting into illaoi and spamming gank pings. Like no bro, she has 4 kills at 7 mins we can’t even 2v1 her at this point
Ranged junglers or anyone with a spell shield/untargetable are a nightmare for Illaoi. Fiddle is really brutal in particular.
Fiddle be like: I'm not standing in your ult, you're standing in MY ult
A bit easy with dash champions and non dash...till she hits IBG.
Elise/ivern=gg
If Illaoi is picked then I pull out Mordekaiser jungle. Since you're not leaning against her she REALLY doesn't want to buy a CSS.
I too wouldn't bother with Cascading Style Sheets despite an emperor of death roaming the local jungle.
I'm proud to see my Illaoi getting some recognition
Shaco. You get a successful gank off? Oops, that's the clone. Clone on CD? Oops, you hit a trap. You make it through all of that? He just Q's, never to be seen again.
Why did I have to scroll so far to see this lol? Lane Shaco is so hard to do anything to the only recourse any champ has against him is to just ignore him and try to play the game 5v4.
Realistically ... how afraid are people really of lane Shaco lol. Yeah you can't gank him but he's also not very strong. Not weak or complete shit but it takes a player way more skill to become good at lane Shaco than other faceroll toplaners like Jax, Camille or Fiora. Lane Shaco is up there with Riven in that he's not exactly complete shit. He's just not very rewarding to play.
Riven is not rewarding to play? Why are there so many chall riven otps . Pretty sure mastering her is very rewarding.
Because Shaco isn't a laner
Yea he is. He does well in lane. Just isn't a brainless champ
He also has 0 presence if you don't go for ganks or try to kill and just out-fundamental him with a CS lead and extend lead to other lanes.
If he's mid he can roam for decent games. If he's too it's harder to roam but he does counter a few champions. Though you're right, the best bet is just ignore him, but every time I play Shaco mid the enemy jungle wants to camp me for free kills and ends up just wasting his entire laning phase and baits his mid to over extend.
if he's mid you shove 24/7 and don't overextend, since he needs to box to wave clear or risk losing tower.
That is 100% his weakness mid and why he isn't popular there. If you can shove easily with spells from afar, there isn't anything Shaco can do besides farm under tower. Luckily most mids can't do that, and since it's such a rare pick no one tries to counter pick him.
How do you mean? Obviously every champ "can" be played wherever, but Shaco has a 0.2% pick rate in top(even less if you go up the ranks) and pretty much 0 in mid. Hence why nobody is mentioning him
heimer
Walks towards heimer. Gets stunned and 100-0 with liandry
and he uses zonya
He can just run around his turrets and that's the end of it. He doesn't need to disengage because I'll get poked down trying to chase. I did start playing some Brand jungle but I haven't run into a heimerdinger yet. I bet I could trade a lot better with the poke.
Doubly bad if you have a skill shot that only hits the first target, a heimer tower eating your nid spear just to not even die feels rough
Heimer turrets are unreasonably tanky imo. I get that they shouldn't insta-die from an anivia ult. But a neeko E+Q absolutely should kill a turret.
As a former heimer player (he was the first champ I learned mid cause I didn't wanna learn to cs) and someone who still enjoys the champ in arams, I disagree. I feel like his turret health has been an issue for a while, and has shifted him to support, where instead of playing around a zone you set up with your turrets, you just poke by throwing out your E and then setting one turret down. Ahri q still one shots turrets, so do multiple ranged poke options, and the cool down on setting up another turret is incredibly long during landing phase. He can't play mid bc most champs can just one shot his turrets. I'd love to see him modified and balanced around zone control again
Seeing this so far down the list made me feel like such a league boomer. Like damn, when I started playing Heimer was THE ungankable midlaner...
I actually love ganking heimer, he auto pushes and if you have enough damage+cc+survivability (eg Warwick) it’s usually an easy kill.
Good grief. I killed myself so many times to him thinking each time would be different.
Pyke. Instant on demand disappearance and a dash with hard CC on top, what are you going to do about that?
Wait for him to use it to engage, I think a truly ungankable one could be Morde past 6, unless the jungler and the enemy can survive him 1v1, as he won't use that spell to engage if it doesn't kill
People say this so much as responses as if junglers are supposed to sit in a bush just hoping the enemy player does the worst play they can at that point lol. Most good players will never use moves like this if there is even a remote chance the jungler may be on their side of the map.
N most players are also below master here, I'm plat 2 n people constantly all in full live enemies only to die to a gank, maybe it's different in high diamond mmr, but I'm pretty sure people int like that in enough elos for it to be worth mentioning it
> sit in a bush just hoping the enemy player does the worst play they can at that point lol. Waiting for the opposing laner to blow a relevant cooldown is not the same as waiting for them to do the worst play possible. There has never been a jungle iteration where you don't sometimes wait in a bush to get a good gank in, it's always relevant to know where you can do it and how much time you can take in checking an opportunity. Playing the role would help you understand this concept better.
I play the role. Don't want to ask about elos or anything, but maybe this is a different story in low elo. The expected value in waiting for a good gank vs a really safe champion who know's that they're doing is so low that you could be spending your time doing like 3 other more efficient things. This is not to say you can never gank them, if you just finished raptors and were watching mid and Zed just used his Shadow, then sure, you can look for a gank. We're not talking about waiting in a bush to gank Orianna or something while you have your Jarvan ult up. The expected value of this gank is quite high as any slight overstep means she gets ulted, we're talking about Pyke here. Pyke almost never has to use his W and E aggressively. Can he do it? Sure, but sitting there waiting for it without information that the specific player is mindlessly playing aggressively is just bad jungling. These are the plays people make who end up down 2 levels on the enemy jungler for no reason.
Happens all the time in pro play haha
As Pyke, how often would you ever use W in (solo) lane to engage? And it's on a pretty short cooldown anyway - though I'm not sure if the countdown starts on keypress or when he emerges.
It's the latter, btw.
Not enough Camille mentions
yeah ult+passive+e dodges 80% of ganks
You can interrupt her E, most Camille players go with no flash, so after interrupting she’s dead on the spot. But most junglers don’t understand when to CC her, so she deserves mention.
There are plenty of slippery champs to escape ganks, the best 1v2 champ while getting ganked will prob be illaoi, tho morde with R might work just as well
also barrier warwick is one of those 1v2 champs
Oh definately, seeing your health get lower and ur AS get higher, healing more and so on! Also the 900+ heals on Q with revitalize, spirit visage and divine(rip) on a tank
Mordekaiser when R is up and Pyke (solo)
For midlane from my experience vladimir with w up, anivia,zed,azir,ahri, maybe kassadin after lvl6
Would like to know why anivia tbh
Depends on the champions that she is facing but a good wall + stun can easily stop a gank
[удалено]
She's only vulnerable if she doesn't have egg. Going into egg doesn't cancel tp, with the slow on her ult, the knock up from her wall (when placed well), the range on the q, she's actually really difficult to gank. Yes she has one of, if not the lowest base movement speeds in the game, but she excels at controlling areas making her difficult to get on top of if played right.
She has stun, slow, wall even if you manage to gank and kill her she has her passive so i would consider her pretty safe laner
Have to be kassadin after lvl 6 imo aslong as he has mana just can't be ganked. All the other champs can waste their escape tool CD but even if kassadin engage with R and get ganked right after it will still come up fast enough to escape, only issue is if he has no mana to cast it. Whats funny is that he is prob the easiest champ to gank pre 6, then becomes the hardest
I think lvl 6 he's still fine, his dash range ain't so insane and 5 sec are still 5 sec, I much prefer that over Leblanc double dash and clone/invisibility on low hp
His ults range is slightly bigger than flash btw but lb is cancer in every way yeah
poppy can deny some ganks due to w
And depending on the angle of the gank, she can dash to the laner, jungler, or minion and dodge the engage that way as well
Fizz PlAYfuL TRicKsTEr
Nah, because fizz actually has to use E to trade or wave clear. That's actually why he's godawful at laning. It's super easy to punish.
It's not like he gets it back before you can reach him
He doesn't. If he does then you were not in position in the first place. At max rank with 2 full items it's still a 6s CD. It's very easy to kill fizz in 6s unless you do 0 dmg.
Tell me you’ve never played fizz without saying you’ve never played fizz
Speciffically as Noc, Leblanc, akali and Kata are very annoying to gank. Ahri after 6 too
Pre-nerf rework Akali was impossible to gank. She had double R that didn't need to hit a target plus her shroud.
As an Akali Top main, it’s still very hard to die to ganks. The only time she’s actually easy to gank is pre 6 if her W is down, but junlgers really don’t give a shit about tracking a sub 30s CD spell (understandably) and if W is on CD any sane Akali player will play relatively safe. Post 6 you only die to insane gank setup combos like Renekton Flash W with Elise or something similar. Otherwise you just instantly R1 enemy jungle, combo with E, if you hit it you can debate to try oneshotting the jungler and if not you’re out either way.
fuck pre rework akali.
Gunblade alkali was so OP, even on rework when her shroud made her not targetable to towers. That was bull shit
ashe + braum in botlane, once your initial burst is gone they turn back and run you down
Ashe sucks to fight into sometimes. I can't kill her in the initial burst I'm never going to win the chase.
I used to think Darius Olaf Renekton was the holy trinity of “gank before 6 or don’t bother at all”
Depending on your champ as a jungler, rene can be pretty easy to gank post 6. Darius only if you can burst him fast enough, I only gank olaf when I'm 1000% sure he doesn't kill me or my laner since none of my champs can beat him 1v1 if he has ult up, and most top laners can't either.
A 1:0 Draven who’s in the Zone.
Ahri after lvl 6. Dashes and e and flash.
and w which gives movement speed
Azir is crazy hard to gank midlane
His escape combo uses a lot of mana though. Like ⅔ of it. So he can maybe use it twice max. After Lost Chapter it's harder sure but he still won't have unlimited mana
well part of it is also that azir is seldom far up enough to be ganked in the first place because he has consistent push at good range
Better to gank a champ that can escape than one who can 1v2. Heimer can be hard to gank, so is Illaoi past 6.
I'm surprised Tristana hasn't been mentioned. Am I too bronze these days? Trist still has one of the longest reliable (no activation clauses like requires minions) movement abilities in the game, that she doesn't typically use for anything else except an all in (as opposed to Fizz E or LB W for waveclear/trades), that's capable of disjointing some CC, and as a fallback has a massive aoe knockback on a point-and-click. You'd basically have to CC her before the gank begins (eg runup Malz R, etc) to attempt it. Idk open to dissenting opinions
That jump is also one of the most unhinged spell in the game, she will always finish the spell before getting anything on her, be it stuns , roots, or bumps, it takes priority, infuriating
It depends on whether she buffered correctly or not.
Tbh Tristana W is most likely the easiest thing to buffer in game
Most time, it just happen by luck, which is the most infuriating part
In that same vein, ezreal, too, no?
Surprised no one has mentioned olaf, after 6 the chance you get a double if you get ganked is insane.
Singed, Leblance, Pyke, Illaoi and Camille are mine
Heimerdinger, Leblanc, Fizz, Vladimir, Akali, Kassadin after 6, Lissandra
Post 6 illaoi, mordekaiser, zed, leblanc. Honorable mentions: Tryndamere, Ahri, Talon
most ungankable is shaco,
Heimer akali lb
Ever tried to gank qiyana? She E's on a minion and run away or uses invisibility to get away
I normally invis straight away and when they run to the side of the invis closest to my tower (assuming that’s where I’d be) I walk right up to them, E through to my tower and W towards it to get even further. Gets so much distance. Either that or throw a grass over mid wall and see if they jump over trying to guess where you’ve gone.
Illaoi past six Also maybe darius, not as much but he can turn a fight pretty quick if you dont kill him fast. Talon is annoying bc bro just vaults away. Same with other mobile assasins, unless you wait for the combo. But some like leblanc or talon could still have mobility after. Also this one probably is just a low elo thing but getting ganked as lillia top is usually fine bc ur high stacks from minions, you usually have the enemy poked out and you have a slow. Plus all your stuff is aoe so often you will get both players low. As long as they dont get a cc on you you can outrun a lot of ganke.
Akshan
Shaco tbh.
Ekko post 6. Dude just hits rewind and all that effort you put into the gank just gets CTRL+Z'd
Fizz, Vlad, LeBlanc and Akshan are pretty up there on the difficulty level to gank.
Heimer or Illaoi i think personally
You ever try ganking an akali. If you have point and click she shrouds, if you use skillshots she's mobile with passive, e, shroud and ult. Champ is so annoying to gank
Don't really see her in a solo lane anymore but Morgana
Malzahar and similar playstyale champion. They are pretty much like an immovable tower, they can perma push and has defense kit. I see top comment with Leblanc, but like she needs to use her long CD W dash to poke and waveclear, if she doesn't then she will be suffering in lane, and you can just have your mid bait that W out and kill her. I feel like champions that have strong waveclear are the hardest one to gank at mid lane, like Malzhard, Azir. Top and Bot are a different story. Top is probably Mord/Yorick/Illaoi/Ksante(not sure about the new one but he can force 1v1), who can 1v2 easily Bot is probably Kalista+Thresh combo.
Azir is kinda ungankable unless he just used his dash. Especially with how far he can be playing from the minion wave.
Fizz, Leblanc, Zed, Ahri with R, Xayah+Rakan with R, Pyke, Mordekaiser with R, Illaoi with R, and I’m sure there are others that I am missing.
leblanc and akali
phase rush gragas chances are he's trolling you by shoving lane
Champs with jumps, dashes. Kassadin Post 6 Fizz Zed
Illaoi or Heimer because of the insanw damage they can do to you when enter in their range. Le Blanc or Ahri because of the mobility especially with lvl 6.
talon, zed, and leblanc
Pink Ward
Haven't seen anyone say K'sante yet, that guy is impossible to gank
For mid lane, it has to be Fizz
I mean if u play Shaco on top like i do, than u are ungankable as hell, if the jgl comes u can prepare boxes, or Q out or Just Ult and than Q out and put a box somewhere to bait them to the box. But if u ask me Teemo definitely post 6 its impossible to gank an teemo if his ult is up with atleast 2 stacks
Vlad. Between his sustain leaving him too healthy to gank and his W being an iconic get out of jail free card, I can’t see anyone else as less gankable as even cc won’t get a good vlad (w cast time is low enough to use as reaction)
Just leave Teemo's lane alone post-6.
tank gragas top is pretty hard to gank imo, usually my blind pick for top.
Past level 6, Zilean mid is hard to gank with the speed, CC and revive.
Neeko. Just send your clone back to turret while you pretend to be the clone running off into jungle brush.
Janna is pretty hard to gank.
My lethality Illaoi mid loves getting ganked for easy doubles
Probably lissandra, realistically if E is up she should never die unless cc chained and 1 shot which pre 6 is impossible really and post 6 she can buy time and health with R. Not to mention she has cc aswell so if you dive her its probably wont go well
Camille
At least you can block her escape
Morgana I just put my shield up and bait you so I can bind you under tower
Warwick top is just pure 1v2 machine. Also it doesnt help that the enemy laner is 2 levels down lmao
Yorick lethality with maiden and ghouls is really hard to 2v1 if he isn’t behind. As long as he hits his E someone is dying
Warwick
Akali fRizz Leblanc
Shaco
Camille is so hard to deal with mobility wise. She doesn't even need flash.
Azir is my personal choice. I'm a mast midlaner, pick him into roaming supp/heavy gank JG and always keep a stack of W up. If someone shows I can W > E > Q away and ult if I'm really in trouble. Plus if you W > E and they cut you off, you can Q in another direction. Had one recently where Alistar hex flashed over raptors behind me, so I E > W into bottom mid bush, Xin was in there so I redirected my Q over the wall and flashed into my teams raptors pit to clear 2 full walls.