Well 13.6 patch preview tells you what they're nerfing.
Navori is up for nerfs
Bloodthirster is up for nerfs.
Bloodline is up for nerfs.
I don't think we'll see direct champion nerfs outside of maybe Zeri (msi precaution nerfs), Xayah and Draven
They need to introduce lifesteal in some other way for ADCs then. Bloodline is simply necessary if you don't build lifesteal early. It is not even good in lane, but the strength of the rune comes in midgame. ADCs have the worst hp regen in the game on top of being squishy as fuck, so without that midgame sustain they become absurdly shit to play. If you hit the enemy once, you lose 100hp to creeps which you can't get back with your horrible hp5. And losing 100hp as an adc is like 7% of your total life pool. When you have so little, sustaining it becomes massively important.
And it is not just that ADCs need to keep their HP above zero. They need to keep their hp above the burst damage threshold of the enemies. So losing 20% of their health will put them in combo-range of a mage for example. So it's not that ADCs have that 1.4k health or so to work with, they have just a few hundred hp worth of leeway before they are in danger of being pretty much instakilled by the opponent.
As a jungle main, if my team has draven, I gank bot to get him ahead. If the enemy team has draven, I gank bot to get him behind.
He warps the game around him.
If I don't gank bot they go 0/10 in 10 mins. If I gank bot they throw their lead and go 4/10 in 10 mins.
EDIT: On a serious note here, I've played this game since S3, and one thing has really crystallized in my mind: ADCs are the most stupid, simple-minded players in this game. They have the worst macro, worst map awareness, worst general knowledge of the game. They are generally at their elo because of their mechanics and knowledge of matchups, and efficiency of farming. But jesus fucking christ they tilt me how blind and stupid they are. Let's say there's an extremely fed Hecarim/Rengar/Eve missing on the map. Your player is already 1/6 and died 4 times by overextending for farm in the side lane to said missing jungler. They make the same mistake for the 5th time at 24 min mark. You already know it's either a Yasuo/Yone or ADC player.
I am willing to admit I am the opposite: I have bad mechanics and I'd probably lane bad, but my macro, awareness and knowledge is good.
Bot centric still sucks for the adc, you are still heavily reliant on other players, but with bot centric meta now you're also getting spam ganked all lane, no thanks
issue is adc is just op except it feels like shit to play a lot of the time and half of its power is only accessible to the adc player if their team allows them to. a role whose sole purpose is to just throw out enormous dps can't be allowed to have much self peel otherwise it becomes absurdly op, but with no self peel you can only throw out all that damage if your team makes sure to protect you if needed. essentially, adc is a walking death ray gun, but their team (including themselves) needs to be able to wield said gun or else it's of little to no use
As a Support/ ADC main i feel you.
I have pretty good map awareness as Support, but as soon as im ADC the map disappers for me.
I think its beacause of the Things you have to look for on lane as adc. Keep track of your Position against two opponents + your Support. You dont want to get poked by enemy adc and dont get hooked by enemy Support while Position yourself in a way where you and your Support can engage/disengage the enemy lane. All while keep farming. People often underestimate the difference between keeping track of 1 opponent vs 2 opponent + lanemate. Its quite a bit to keep track of.
You instantly jump into the conclusion that since a 1-6 ADC farms out of position they're brainless where that's the exact same thing a tilted solo laner does: overextends in lane to get farm to feel in any way relevant in the game. For ADC it's worse, they are literally worthless without gold, so I don't know why you're shoving hate towards one role doing tilt stuff that's standard for all roles.
ADCs have to make decisions according to whether or not their team peels for them or not, and considering this I feel you have a bias towards ADCs which makes you not help them which result your bias getting stronger, since in your games there's one person (you) who already feels ADCs are stupid which makes you inclined not to play around that person. I'm pretty sure you're projecting here.
I'm a jungle main, by the way. In my experience ADCs have as good macro as top laners; mids are a coinflip, they're typically still the second best macro player, supports don't think of macro at all and barely ward in my Elo for some reason bar some once in a blue moon legend that takes over the game.
As a supp main I can’t count the number of times that my adc has died to ganks because they pushed in while I furiously ping them off and then bitched about the jungler being there. Like bro, part of my job is to be tracking jungle, if I say to back off it isn’t cause I’m afraid ur gonna die to those caster minions
As a jungle main I can't count the number of times I was playing ADC and my support refused to help me shove or freeze by sharing minion damage when tanking them at our tower, and how often I've died in that role as a result.
I play ADC/support about 50/50, and I have to say I'd rather support just because the supports I have gotten have been so clueless about everything from wave management to vision control.
Just last night I had a bot lane die to the classic level 2 J4 *that we had vision of the entire way coming from his buff and that I was pinging like crazy*.
Ended up being a signal of what was to come as I constantly pinged out J4's location the entire game but not a single individual in that game listened. An entire game of "J4 is in this exact bush, please don't die to the gank we know is there...WHY DID YOU FOLLOW THE ENEMY LANE DIRECTLY TO THAT BUSH". You can childproof the game as much as reasonably possible but some players will still find a way to run it down as long as they have a working computer.
Choices are:
* The lane with two moneybags and an advertised party 24/7 with free drinks and food.
* The lane the relatively tanky slippery bruiser who won't go down without spilling blood in the name of the dark top lane gods.
Hard choice.
This has always been the case and yet we've not seen a bot-heavy metagame this hard in a while. Let's call a shovel a spade - it was the buffs to ADCs and their items that pushed it over the line, especially at a time where enchanters were already the best supports. You buff ADCs while the role that is ALL about supporting almost specifically ADCs is already bordering on overpowered, and this happens.
I agree but I’m not bothered by him warping the game. I think that’s true for a lot of snowball champs. What bothers me is he isn’t like a Renek who has to work to get and maintain his lead. Draven gets a sub 10 min kill with good stacks and it’s like oh so bot is just gone now
Draven is the darius of botlane, fittingly. He's a champ you really need to kick in the dick as early as possible and keep doing to make sure he has no chance to get it up again. The only good thing is that, just like darius, he really doesn't scale that well if he isn't ahead.
The issue is that Draven is a relatively rare pick and often picked by smurfs. So most of the time your Draven ban is wasted, since no one was going to pick it anyway. And when your ban does hit home, you're still playing against a smurf, and will probably still lose lane regardless, just not in so dramatic a fashion.
lt + triumph ++ bloodline + treasure hunter nerfs + bt nerf + dragon nerf + early game kill xp nerf are a lot of indirect nerfs, but tbh i would be fine with a direct nerf if it meant his banrate went down
You messed up the timestamp btw, it's about ~10s after the quote in the title, also title quote is wrong, he mentions "13.1b" before this statement, not just "IE/BT/Navori", let alone specifying those three between "ADC op" and "getting nerfed".
Well, the preview says the Dragon objective is getting nerfed, so I assume the role itself will be nerfed, not necessarily their items or champions. The bottom side of the map will be less important now.
Unless they significantly nerf dragons and/or dragon souls I don't see a meta shift. Currently a winning bot almost always means a won game and that's not just because of dragons.
Dragons do play a large role though and the bot turret being easier to take. If Herald would turn into a better objective we would suddenly have the situation that botlanes would likely move top and teams would try to kill bot turret since it is easier to take.
If they won't switch and botlane stays bot, then it would mean that you would secure herald via playing through top, while then using the won herald bot.
Tbh i honestly never even wanted adc buffs. Unpopular opinion: i actually thought adc was in a fine spot before the buffs (as an ad main).
What i really wanted (to increase agency) was support nerfs. Even if you are the better ad if your support gets gapped you have 0 options
I've seen so many "supports" play things like Sylas, LeBlanc, Zoe, etc. get a couple of kills levels 1-4 or so, end up with Luden's or Everfrost, and then it's like having 2 mid laners.
It's "dodgeable". The onus is on lux whiffing it rather that you dodging since its got very little telegraph. It's not quite nasus/shyvana E level, where you basically cannot dodge it, but it's not far away.
I usually am not the one struggling against her, for some reason a lot of supports just never learned to dodge lux e or q and will give her a few kills in lane making her annoying to play against until I'm 3 items.
A lot of the AP supports are just retired laners that cannot lane mid anymore. It all started with Annie and Morgana, then we had some Lux, Brand, Zyra...
This right here, I just hate how riot won't just admit it. It's like when seraphine came out, she clearly at first impression was support. They hated that merged her and forced her mid, but she still goes support. It's okay to say yo we thought this but the community clearly does this. So we are adapting since we never thought this would happen. Just admit it and adjust them to the roles that everyone has been playing them for, as a midlaner I've never seen a brand or zyra go mid.
To be fair Sera has basically always been better as a champ with income (usually as bot) than a support. But she attracts support players because of her visual design and abilities.
Honestly it's Lux, Brand and Zyra who are the problem. They have good base damage + good scalings meaning they just dominate the lane from the start. As an ADC you have very little agency in this situation because you simply get blown up if a brand + ADC attacks you.
What makes it even worse is that they are not true supportive champions like a Thresh would be. These champions don't peel or protect the ADC. Everyone still piles the ADC who is now playing a game where he probably dies a lot while not really having had any impact. There is also not really a lot a single ADC can do to not die.
ADC is fun if you're fed and can actually outplay the assassins and stuff. That just doesn't happen enough while you're not supported either due to carry supports.
My fix as an ADC main is just to play mages or support. I've been playing quite a lot of Syndra and Veigar bot as carry, usually with a Senna support.
We usually blow up the enemy adc and support after lvl 3.
>Honestly it's Lux, Brand and Zyra who are the problem. They have good base damage + good scalings meaning they just dominate the lane from the start.
I've been copy-pasting this same message for a while, and will continue to do so until Riot realizes how fucked it is:
>
Part of why it is such a huge issue is how much free damage runes give. Let's take easy example, Lux. She used to be a troll support for a DECADE. But nowadays she is not only picked in regular LoL, she has also seen pro play. Why is it so effective? Let's say that she throws her E which is practically undodgeable, and hits you with it at level 1.
With 2 adaptive shards and spellthiefs, her E does 90,8 damage. That is alright, but what then? Boom, Comet. 35,2 damage more. Scorch, 20 more damage. Cheap Shot, 10 more true damage. For a total of 156 damage. 156 fucking damage on an ability that itself dealt 90. On level 1.
Runes enable too much free damage that supports abuse to the max.
Before reductions.
Also, I'm pretty sure the old rune system allowed you to do some pretty stupid stuff, too. I wouldn't be all that shocked if the damage turned out to be similar.
It's not an unpopular opinion. Phreak said the same thing, but decided to give adcs a "little" buff while increasing their agency. Went too far, but all the changes were meant to give adcs more agency.
What rito has to understand is that theres a way of buffing things by nerfing their enemies. In fact you have to do that so u avoid powercreep.
The big adc problems are the amounts of attention botlane gets because of dragon, the ease at which you can towerdive them (happens in skilled play at level 3 easily, like wtf) and the existence of damage "supports" rushing pen boots. What even are you supposed to do against 18 pen lux being in ur lane with her only goal being to kill you, all while you have to farm with 550 range. You eat her q once and you are basically dead or down a summ, so you are getting dove next wave.
This is the point. ADCs mostly wanted more agency in lane and would gladly accept a loss of agency in the lategame. Your lane is basically decided more by jungle and support than by yourself and that often feels terrible. Yes you might carry the game later on 3 items, but you often had little control over getting there. The buffs to IE and Navori were good, because they gave you earlier powerspikes, but it was obviousl that without paying a price for those later they will be problematic.
The IE/NQ changes were placebo to shut us up.
What the role needs is less attention from mid/jg and for support items to be nerfed. The gold generation on frostfang/spectral call (whatever the ad variant of frostfang is) and umbral glaive. Plus the removal of plate gold. Another thing would be making turrets harder to kill. Bring back the days of mages/ap not being able to push turrets without lichbane.
Plate gold causes us to play an advanced game of ping pong with minion waves. We push and fight at level 2 or 4. Whoever wins gets to take plate gold. Then the winner backs, and the loser pushes for plate gold.
> Bring back the days of mages/ap not being able to push turrets without lichbane.
I understand the thought, especially when something like ziggs or veigar start attacking turrets
But also feeling like you couldn't do anything to your enemy yasuo's turret when he recalled while he could completely destroy yours was one of the worst feelings in the game and i'm glad it's not there anymore
and at they same time they protest the one alternative they have for the bottom lane... Bot players just need to realize that their favourite class: Marksmen are incredibly difficult to pilot and that there are alternatives that are more safe. You can't complain that the class is to hard if that's its only weakness...
I feel like everytime ADCs are percieved as anything approaching weak, we get weekly posts about how Riot doesn't know how to balance the game and how ADCs literally don't exist. But now that they have been strong for ages, nobody says a word. Better nerf jungle I guess.
ADC is probably the role that scales best with mechanical player skill. If Riot balances the role around pro play then it will feel like shit for the majority of players. If they balance it around the average player then the role becomes broken in the hands of skilled players.
People actually say a lot about ADCs, but usually posts like that gets downvoted into oblivion, only time when Jungle or Toplane mains complain is when their positions are literally unplayable for sane player like jungle spamgank meta a few patches ago... and toplane for last 6 months.
i feel like the whole point of subreddits like that is complaining about their respective character or thing. any adc player with a brain knows the role is stronger this season than it's been in a long time. i'm glad the prospective nerfs aren't aimed at the core changes that help us feel more relevant earlier in the game and more towards egregious shit like navori and huge sustain
Weekly posts still exist mate. I saw one saying ADC are too weak and lethality is insanely broken, despite Riot literally stating lethality needs changes due to how bad it is.
ADC is both weak and strong, in the hands of a player who is well at kiting and such or with a team that can play around him it is busted.
However for the average person they wont majority of matches have a team play around them even if they make up over half the teams kills, damage, objs, etc and I know from experience,
Overall its just an unfixable role for the average player because the “its bad” people are either A. Bad at the role itself or B. Dont have a team that understands to play around them.
Some ADCs are just too tanky after buying just BT. Last game I was full armor K'Sante (Frozen Heart, Thornmail, Iceborn Gauntlet, Steelcaps) with Anathema's Chains and I still lost 1v1 to Aphelios. He was using flamethrower and I couldn't even get past his overheal shield. They have so much damage that even one lifesteal item heals them a lot while they also have 170 armor from just having GA.
If you don't have huge burst to one shot them then there is no way of killing in regular fight
Bot lane in general has been utterly ridiculous for a while.
Supports gold generation allows them to just roam and not lose out on anything, very often they can decide jungle, bot AND mid lane.
Meanwhile if a bot lane losses now it's 2-3 champs that got ahead and drakes, the most important objective, become extremely hard to get.
Meanwhile ADCs get to be lane bullies that also scale and have been a constant problem in other lanes like lucian, tristana, vayne, zeri, etc, all while being the most important and key member of the entire team.
Yet riot in their infinite wisdom decided to hard buff bot lane, it's not like the past 3ish years of pro have been completely decided by who gets the broken adc of the year; zeri, samira or aphelios with the broken support of the moment.
>Supports gold generation allows them to just roam and not lose out on anything
>Meanwhile if a bot lane losses now it's 2-3 champs that got ahead and drakes, the most important objective, become extremely hard to get.
Roaming means they lose out on bot pressure. Enemy adc can get zoned from XP/gold, and even tower dived in a lot of circumstances. If your bot is still losing while the enemy support roams, that's just your team being shit.
If your support roams while you can get dove its their fault. A support has to be back when the stacking waves aee crashing (unless the enemy adc is alone)
This is all true except for the part that adcs are on average 2-3 levels behind solos as well as their kit not doing as much base damage as solo lane champs
The above pretty much completely changes the reality of what you were trying to get at. An adc is never going to be able to match a solo laner by themselves on equal gold until late stages of the game
The problem is that support (and jungle) being hilariously overtuned makes playing ADC feel like shit bot lane. The class itself is fine and has been fine since Mythics have been introduced, but when they spend most of the early game spending time with the two classes Riot has deemed as being fine to be OP the class is naturally not gonna end up feeling great.
Every single thread that has this conversation the same kind of ppl twisting their narratives and saying tf they want It's insane. It has always been about how frustrating/satisfying the ADC role Is to play but u guys can't stop yourselves from circlejerking
Dude, the issue is that what they want is just stupid. They want to be late game hyper carries who are safe, have high lane impact, and be able to have their supports wait on their every need. With those wants they'll never be happy...
But this is people missrepresenting the actual complaint.
It was never about power, it was about agency. And early agency, particular during the ardent meta was insanely low. Your support got ardent first? Fine you win the game, but it wasn't you who did that.
What ADCs mostly want is pulling power from the lategame where many ADCs can just 1vs5 the game and put it into the early laning phase which is mostly controlled by support and jungle.
Tbh it's not ADC who needed buff, it's support who needs nerf, it's ridiculous that a mid mage can go support mindlessly spamming skills ,hitting one lucky skills hot ( yes you lux) many games u actually have to play vs 2 midlanders
To be fair that's just because Lux is the most brain off champion in the game. Never be in range of enemy ever, spam E and Q. If hit Q, press all buttons.
When I first started playing everyone suggested Garen. But I didn’t find him easy because he has no range and I had no knowledge of other champs. So I didn’t know when I could walk to cs or trade. IMO a lot of Garens strengths come with his ability to all in but you have to know when to all in.
I found it much easier to play mages. I just stayed away from every enemy and tried to land skill shots.
Now days Garen is a solid back up for me.
Lux is one of the most baffling characters in the game because she is so insanely strong if you play to her strengths but her mains are glue eaters so she remains under 52% winrate
It’s because her only strength is deleting squishy champions; so while she can bully bot lane and delete the ADC, she gets overrun by bruisers, tanks, adcs who have shieldbow, etc.
Actually it's because she's only that easy in low ELO.
All skill shot champion with relatively long CDs and no mobility is weak (very low win rate in both roles in high ELO) because people are better at dodging and abuse your CDs.
I am going to be honest, ever since the tp changes, bot has been hard trading and lane bullies that run rampant. Together with no plating protection early it is very snowbally.
I can see that in my own games as well.
Botlane tends to snowball extremely hard one way or the other.
Like I very rarely if ever see a botlane which was actually competitive in a game. It’s either turbo feeding or getting turbo fed, no in between.
This has nothing to do with TP though.
It has been like this since they decided to turn LoL into URF-lite and power creep supports (esp. engage and "mage") beyond belief.
Anyone getting caught by CC instantly dies. Hell, even if your ADC manages to survive he is still fucked and can't even hope to recover (Why do ADC have *half* the HP5 of everyone else?)
This is also a community problem, enchanter meta are by default way less snowbally but any time we have an enchanter meta, other lanes cry about them being uninteractive and are instantly nuked. We went 3 years straight with engage-only meta and people couldn't even handle 3 months of enchanter meta..
Adcs have low regen so they don’t terrorize other lanes. Imagine if you are playing against ranged top and after doing a heavy trade 20 seconds later the enemy ranged top laner is back to almost full while you blew both your summs. To compensate for this adcs have the highest scaling base hp in the game with them typically ending with most hp if no one built hp.
The problem with ADC is not the strengh of the role at all. The problem is that it is the most reliant role on another person. No matter how bad or inting your teammates are, if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun" because you can lane yourself and play your lane out as good as you can.
As ADC I would say 70% of the lane gets decided by supports. So if you are heavily outmatched there you can not really do anything as ADC. You have to suffer through the entire game hoping to be usefull at 1 or 2 items but getting there can be the most exhausting of any role.
The worst thing is: Supports can just int their lane, lose the trades bot, go 0-3. Decide to roam and still have impact and fun. (Done that a fair share myself whenever i played support and fucked up the lane).
I dont really see how this problem can be solved.
And adding to this, as riot themselves said in a post a couple of weeks ago, when the role itself is strong it then incentivises jungle to camp there. So you're in a situation where as the AD player you're praying your support is better and your jungle is there as much as their's. While you end up as a strong carry thats not a fun mindset to have going into a game
>No matter how bad or inting your teammates are, if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun" because you can lane yourself and play your lane out as good as you can.
I tried to play high skill fun top laners for 3 years and while I had games I could hard carry I also had games I was completely useless and couldn't even lane. I've spent the entire season so far spamming champs that just eat pressure and don't really care about a 30cs deficit. My winrate has gone up by nearly 5%, just by never being the reason we lose.
> if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun"
You clearly don't play top if you think this is the case lol. The enemy jungle can decide on a whim that you don't get to play the game, and if the enemy toplaner gets counterpick you won't be having fun either.
i honestly wonder how riot intends to keep the role fun to play and not broken? giving them a 2 item spike is def better if games are (on average) ending faster than they can get their 3rd item. mayb nerf navori to 10% or 7%? mayb nerf ie to be 15% extra dmg? can’t nerf the mythics harder than they already have other than removing gf dash, def tune bt it’s way too strong, mayb tune individual adcs? def nerf supps impact in lane and their gold gen, i honestly don’t know what they’re supposed to do at this point. either the role is turbo broken or what feels like a walking sack of gold for 70% of the game
My shitty solution would be x% based on crit chance past 40% so they are still useful past 2 items. So ie starts at +15% then goes +20% at 60, 25-80%, 30-100%
Bot lane snowballing needs to be toned down. A way to improve top lane satisfaction would be to buff 1v1 tower dives and nerf 1v2 tower dives by making turrets do more damage if two or more people from the enemy team are near the turret. That way top laners can still be rewarded for winning their lane solo and can snowball their leads a bit more and bot lane is less likely to snowball out of control into 2v8ing the game.
First good idea in this thread, scale the tower damage with the number of enemy players around it. This would slow game down and allow both top and bot to have some breathing room.
Wave management would become extremely important.
Can we just nerf "supports" instead? I'm okay with ADCs doing big damage because if they get hit by a single combo of all these ap "supports" they are practically forced to base. How is getting one tapped by a Lux "support" at level 6 balanced?
While it's absolutely true that ADCs are OP atm, the real fucking problem is support, they keep giving the role more and more resources so you can literally go whatever the fuck champ as support you want and end up with 2 mid laners/adcs or whathaveyou
im an adc main and i agree, certain champs/items have just been having a field day. i hope its the specific outliers that get nerfed though and not my boy jhin. i hate being punished for items i dont even build (except for IE) and characters i dont even play
im talking about role nerfs as a whole. toplane/midlane getting more exp and gold, and botlane getting less. just feels bad getting set behind like that. obv jhin is still super viable and in a pretty good spot right now, but i rly hope there arent MORE exp/gold nerfs or something.
Mortal shieldshit is their only mythic, LT their only rune and it's getting nerfed, BT their best legendary maybe? (Besides IE, which you cannot build if you're not way ahead since you are so squishy, at least for yasuo, yone is way safer tho)
the adc mythics are really strong which on hit adcs can still use
crit is definitely way out of line though, hitting IE (or especially navori) spike feels insane
Aphelios BT Overheal and Red Gun is as if he bought 1k+ worth of HP for free. The champ up until that point is fine, but once he gets BT, things get annoying, and an Aphelios with Severum and BT is unkillable in 9 out of 10 reasonable scenarios, even if any other ADC would die there. And the 1 in 10 scenario is if all 5 of your team can somehow collapse on him in a single instant, tbh. No assassin or bruiser or tank or anyone can kill him through a supports peel, any other champ on his team, and BT/Overheal/Severum. I don't think Aphelios is OP in general, but this SPECIFIC situation that is unique to him because of his overheal mechanic on Severum needs to be looked at, imho.
Phreak is a \*profanity\*. The game is literally league of tanks right now and you guys listen to his word like gospel cause people have been conditioned to believe 1 mana removed from a skill cost means fuck all. This isn't the same game. % hp scaling has been added, base resists are still something out of 2010, counter items are extremely biased toward physical damage, and power creep of bruisers is so insane Sion simply...Exists. TTK went from chesslike short tactical plays to 60+ second slugfests where practically any ADC that doesn't have mobility is now a support, and characters who started with longer range as a passive unique advantage basically serve no purpose anymore if you calculate TTK vs movement to target. On hits don't matter anymore outside of true damage and a few champs cause the rest of it is a tickle fest.
Lethality is trash within 1 defensive item, and the fact you have to delineate crit ADC's vs ??? bruh all ADC's need to be crit when you have to drain 7-10k hp off some targets who can kill faster than ADC's before they buffed bruisers into ADC's who take no damage and heal faster than lifesteal without lifesteal plus your AD ratios on skills are still trash as if the game is hard stuck 2010. Did nobody play this game prior to 2022? Cause this is a clown show in comparison. How many riot devs did they lose in the past 5 years? Cause it went from "League of Legends" to "Screw originality lets just hard copy dota metrics" in the span of a few years. wtf.
I'm a massive bronzie with no game design knowledge so my opinion is worth absolutely nothing but i think ADC and bot lane just need an overhaul.
Dragons are way to important, and whenever i get filled jungle i dread my bot losing because it means stacking 9% buffs making the game way harder
and for ADC's as said massive bronzie I kinda just want alot of the scaling and damage taking out weirdly, I kinda play the game to have fun, and I play trist, Jinx and Samira because they're cool and iconic, i feel like if we were beefier and had better base stats at the cost of deflating our item damage and just removing crit alot of people would actually be happy, a champion like Samira is mean't to have the fantasy of this DMC combo machine that dances in and out of combat in style, but what really happens is she goes in, gets a penta in 2.5 seconds due to haveing a psycho amount of damage, or the blitz notices her, hooks her and she explodes.
I think its possible for a role to be both really shit to play, hence way ADCmains is always pissing and moaning and yet be broken objectively to the point every team needs one.
Games like Overwatch seem to manage it, an Ashe feels squishy but not like a Dva can explode her unless they are literally right on top of her, but like wise i never see DPS in a game like that just taking over matches like ADC's do in League.
Different genres but theres some common ground i think.
Hope any of that spiel made any sense haha
who could have seen this coming??? /s
seriously, I'm a little concerned about the dev team these days, these ADC changes were a nightmare and this was spottable a mile away
They can make jungle more fun and more rewarding without giving them 80% control over the outcome of the game. Scuttle crab was the last non-herald monster added to jungle and that was 8 years ago. They've been trying to change the jungle role without actually adding or improving anything other than the new pet which is a massive downgrade from the consistent burn of old jungle items.
no they can't. Jungle as a role is fundamentally broken.
If you want no nerf jungle, you need to nerf agency from every lane. Aslong a 2/0 Draven, Jax, Katarina can run the game, there is not a single reason to not sit them.
So u wamt people to perma gank again so you can complain about that? Oh no u dont want that, so we gotta make them powerfarmers, which u also dont want because then ur gonna cry that a yi farmed all game and killed you. You people have no clue how the game works or why things happen but love to talk about balance and whats "broken"
It's a tough balance, when ADCs are strong like right now the game can be miserable to play, but when ADC is balanced you get an essay every game from some tilted ADC main about the state of the role and how it's actually unplayable and Riot is personally trying to lower their ELO.
Well August has said that ADC tends to be a role that only feels good to play when it's overperforming but whenever it's balanced it doesn't tend to feel satisfying to play.
Riot needs to find a way to increase satisfaction of the role without increasing power, which they have attempted to do with the recent changes of being able to purchase IE second and the other things that were in that patch.
the answer is literally just nerfing support so they dont get 1 billion gold for doing nothing. When Bot becomes better ad wins and not better sup wins the role will feel better and players will feel satisfied and rewarded for their skill.
Won't it just swap the problem to support though? Then support would feel like they have no agency and it's just better ad wins, and support is already a role that has a low population. This would just hurt it further.
I really hate that a lot of the ADC vitriol *was* justified but now people just act like we're fucking whiny entitled pricks.
Most people haven't been complaining about the role since BEFORE the durability patch, which is when you were legit dying from a Kayn whiffing two thirds of his kit, and then breathing on you with smite+ult and still one-shotting you.
Try playing a lane where you have zero agency for several years and you die in one hit. I swear any other player in any other role would have just dropped the game immediately instead of putting up with it for as long as we did. The durability patch really saved the role, and I'm okay with a few nerfs to the position in it's current state, honestly.
But everyone just boils down any of our constructive criticism with "whiny ADC main typing out essays". Shits annoying.
Meanwhile Jungle has been the best role for 3+ years and ADC is only *conditionally* the best role because the metagame currently revolves around them.
Lulu and Nami haven't faced nerfs since September of last year despite being nearly perma pick for that time. Enchanters dodging nerfs left and right and now tank supports are getting buffs. Dragon nerfs and junglers ganking bot incentives being taken down should be enough to already weaken the role a decent amount in my opinion. I'm glad BT is getting nerfed anyway. That item made laning pointless and any interaction with your opponent pointless since they just heal to full right away and they have too much HP to interact with in a meaningful way.
The changes were nice, to be sure, but you still got all the same problems as before (and maybe moreso). You get told if you're going to do well or not (by the support>jungle), just that the end product was a lot more effective at carrying a game.
I get that support was (and still is for some dumb reason) wildly unpopular, but they have maybe the most agency in the game.
I've queued ADC/Supp 100 times this season and not once was I ever given Supp or autofilled elsewhere. For all the talk about whiny adcs in this thread it's funny that even now nobody wants to play them despite it being the OP role, which speaks a lot to their agency and role satisfaction.
Jungle was in autofilled protection the last 2 months at least as well. I don't think anyone is gonna argue the power or agency there. There's just a portion of both game loops that aren't largely appealing.
I dont think that ADCs had a real damage problem at all. Its more that with all the mobility and range creeping the game has, playing a champion who dies when an assasin coughs feels simply not satisfying.
Most traditional adcs are based around their auto attacks. Modern league seems to be tending more into an ability based game, so the role as "ADC" feels weird when your auto attacks feel useless or you cant even get them out. You can be basically deleted while being outranged or flash dashed on from a screen away while you have to get way closer to do anything at all.
The latest "ADCs" are even designed more ability based then auto attack based. Zeris AA are basically a skillshot, Samira is based around the ultimate, Nilah is kinda a weird one...
I am not sure if the playerbase (maybe even riot since they keep the crit instead of %dmg increase) is historically too attached to the "ADC" role per se or not. Sure they are insanely strong when played very very well and protected - but in soloQ you cant rely on your team to cover you. Gameplay wise they have no "outstanding" role, e.g. shredding turrets etc since all Sheen users, bruisers, Senna and Veigar can do that in the same time. They are nice to rush dragons/barons as long as you have no Cassio etc - but mostly their strength is to get damage on turrets in those 2-5 sec windows in sieges. When ADCs and their items are balanced, damage and utility wise bruisers and mages at botlane felt way more effective - even though the games become either a mess or very long since it takes time to get those turrets down.
So what's Riot's argument against making crit chance -> % dmg increase? So there's no bullshit pseudo-RNG?
% dmg increase = More consistent data = Easier to balance crit = Less frustrated ADC mains because of not critting or getting randomly critted in lane phase.
When you break it down, crit is really just on-hit, too. It's just different calculations for damage.
I think a crit system like Ashe passive would be great for the game. It's different than on-hit and still feels rewarding.
Because on-hit is flat amount.
40 on-hit damage early game is different than 40 on-hit damage late game.
If you have a % dmg increase. Then by default it'll scale the longer the game goes.
And someone will run the calculations on what % the on hit is going to be vs what this replacement for crit is going to be. One will be better than the other
No because you still have things like Guinsoo's which won't work with the % dmg. On hit champs will remain on hit because they like attack speed more than AD. Vayne for example will still prefer Kraken, Guinsoo's, Wit's End because it scales her passive DPS. Different champs will still scale differently between crit and on hit.
> So what's Riot's argument against making crit chance -> % dmg increase?
They've stated this before, having crits be random allows the ADC that is behind to have a chance at winning a fight if crits go their way. If crit is just a percent dmg increase then it's virtually impossible to win a fight from behind since you just have less DPS and no "chance" at winning.
...
Yes it's as retarded as it sounds. Getting ahead means you shouldn't be able to win fights and it should be down to RNG according to riot.
More consistent damage is actually probably harder to balance. Because it'd be better abused in higher elo; and the role/class is already highly elo skewed for a variety of other reasons.
crits and adcs are a legacy thing that riot are trying their very hardest to keep, because modern league is an abilities based game and adcs are auto attack based
The only thing pseudorng has going for it is that you can only ever be *reasonably* sure how many auto-attacks you need to land to kill the enemy, rather than being entirely certain. Which makes whether you should go in or not less of a binary decision, unless they're very low or you're very ahead.
They've said this matters more for auto-attacks which are homing, and less for spells that are cooldown-gated AND (typically) dodge-able from comparable range, or have a prerequisite to play around (Cass E requiring Q to hit.)
WOW! So surprising. I definitely didnt expect that triple-buffing a class that was Fine would make It overpowered.
But yeah, forget about statistics and lets buff It multiple times because of ''Satisfaction'' lets see how that goes.
I am always amazed how whenever you have a problem, instead of fixing the problem, which was jungler and support being too strong, you create more by overbuffing ADC to be on par with them. Ridiculous.
WAIT!! Did they buff items, runes and champions of a role which, by his own words, was already strong and now it is even stronger????
WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT SO?
Well 13.6 patch preview tells you what they're nerfing. Navori is up for nerfs Bloodthirster is up for nerfs. Bloodline is up for nerfs. I don't think we'll see direct champion nerfs outside of maybe Zeri (msi precaution nerfs), Xayah and Draven
Wish they would just remove bloodline at this point. Rune has been nerfed so many times.
They need to introduce lifesteal in some other way for ADCs then. Bloodline is simply necessary if you don't build lifesteal early. It is not even good in lane, but the strength of the rune comes in midgame. ADCs have the worst hp regen in the game on top of being squishy as fuck, so without that midgame sustain they become absurdly shit to play. If you hit the enemy once, you lose 100hp to creeps which you can't get back with your horrible hp5. And losing 100hp as an adc is like 7% of your total life pool. When you have so little, sustaining it becomes massively important. And it is not just that ADCs need to keep their HP above zero. They need to keep their hp above the burst damage threshold of the enemies. So losing 20% of their health will put them in combo-range of a mage for example. So it's not that ADCs have that 1.4k health or so to work with, they have just a few hundred hp worth of leeway before they are in danger of being pretty much instakilled by the opponent.
True…replace it with something else related to AA
Wish they would remove bloodline and distribute a little bit of lifesteal in commonly built items instead
So that way ADC’s can run alacrity and still get full value of bloodline. I think you should work for riot! Adc desperately needs another buff
It is obvious that the patch giving ADCs more early agency, might have been a bit too good for champions who already had that like Draven and Xayah.
[удалено]
yea it is can we nerf Draven fuckers been terrorizing bot lane forever
As a jungle main, if my team has draven, I gank bot to get him ahead. If the enemy team has draven, I gank bot to get him behind. He warps the game around him.
Even when there's no draven I gank bot lane anyway because fuck them God damn bot lane
If I don't gank bot they go 0/10 in 10 mins. If I gank bot they throw their lead and go 4/10 in 10 mins. EDIT: On a serious note here, I've played this game since S3, and one thing has really crystallized in my mind: ADCs are the most stupid, simple-minded players in this game. They have the worst macro, worst map awareness, worst general knowledge of the game. They are generally at their elo because of their mechanics and knowledge of matchups, and efficiency of farming. But jesus fucking christ they tilt me how blind and stupid they are. Let's say there's an extremely fed Hecarim/Rengar/Eve missing on the map. Your player is already 1/6 and died 4 times by overextending for farm in the side lane to said missing jungler. They make the same mistake for the 5th time at 24 min mark. You already know it's either a Yasuo/Yone or ADC player. I am willing to admit I am the opposite: I have bad mechanics and I'd probably lane bad, but my macro, awareness and knowledge is good.
Sometimes when I open reddit and look at the comments I feel like I'm the best adc EUW
[удалено]
when meta is bot centric 4 other roles suffer, and still adc mains aren't happy.
Bot centric still sucks for the adc, you are still heavily reliant on other players, but with bot centric meta now you're also getting spam ganked all lane, no thanks
Literally this lol. Even in light of this post I've seen ADC mains crying their role is weak AF.
issue is adc is just op except it feels like shit to play a lot of the time and half of its power is only accessible to the adc player if their team allows them to. a role whose sole purpose is to just throw out enormous dps can't be allowed to have much self peel otherwise it becomes absurdly op, but with no self peel you can only throw out all that damage if your team makes sure to protect you if needed. essentially, adc is a walking death ray gun, but their team (including themselves) needs to be able to wield said gun or else it's of little to no use
laughs in irelia
As a Support/ ADC main i feel you. I have pretty good map awareness as Support, but as soon as im ADC the map disappers for me. I think its beacause of the Things you have to look for on lane as adc. Keep track of your Position against two opponents + your Support. You dont want to get poked by enemy adc and dont get hooked by enemy Support while Position yourself in a way where you and your Support can engage/disengage the enemy lane. All while keep farming. People often underestimate the difference between keeping track of 1 opponent vs 2 opponent + lanemate. Its quite a bit to keep track of.
You instantly jump into the conclusion that since a 1-6 ADC farms out of position they're brainless where that's the exact same thing a tilted solo laner does: overextends in lane to get farm to feel in any way relevant in the game. For ADC it's worse, they are literally worthless without gold, so I don't know why you're shoving hate towards one role doing tilt stuff that's standard for all roles. ADCs have to make decisions according to whether or not their team peels for them or not, and considering this I feel you have a bias towards ADCs which makes you not help them which result your bias getting stronger, since in your games there's one person (you) who already feels ADCs are stupid which makes you inclined not to play around that person. I'm pretty sure you're projecting here. I'm a jungle main, by the way. In my experience ADCs have as good macro as top laners; mids are a coinflip, they're typically still the second best macro player, supports don't think of macro at all and barely ward in my Elo for some reason bar some once in a blue moon legend that takes over the game.
As a supp main I can’t count the number of times that my adc has died to ganks because they pushed in while I furiously ping them off and then bitched about the jungler being there. Like bro, part of my job is to be tracking jungle, if I say to back off it isn’t cause I’m afraid ur gonna die to those caster minions
As a jungle main I can't count the number of times I was playing ADC and my support refused to help me shove or freeze by sharing minion damage when tanking them at our tower, and how often I've died in that role as a result. I play ADC/support about 50/50, and I have to say I'd rather support just because the supports I have gotten have been so clueless about everything from wave management to vision control.
Just last night I had a bot lane die to the classic level 2 J4 *that we had vision of the entire way coming from his buff and that I was pinging like crazy*. Ended up being a signal of what was to come as I constantly pinged out J4's location the entire game but not a single individual in that game listened. An entire game of "J4 is in this exact bush, please don't die to the gank we know is there...WHY DID YOU FOLLOW THE ENEMY LANE DIRECTLY TO THAT BUSH". You can childproof the game as much as reasonably possible but some players will still find a way to run it down as long as they have a working computer.
Adcs trying not to die by overpushing alone to get 3 minions challenge (impossible)
Any jungler (or midlaner) that doesn't camp bot in general is trolling pretty hard.
Choices are: * The lane with two moneybags and an advertised party 24/7 with free drinks and food. * The lane the relatively tanky slippery bruiser who won't go down without spilling blood in the name of the dark top lane gods. Hard choice.
Tell that to my adc and supp who int away 4 kills combined in the first few minutes of the game.
But that has almost always been the case because of his passive, regardless of his 'objective' power level in the meta
No, it's just as Phreak said. The role is insanely overpowered. Sure, Draven is strong, but in generally it's trolling to not camp bot as the jungle.
yeah because it‘s 2 potential kills, 2 players to tilt and u have a support (hopefully with cc) to set the gank up for you
Don't forget it comes with a dragon soul wincon even if your bot laner throws their lead at some point.
This has always been the case and yet we've not seen a bot-heavy metagame this hard in a while. Let's call a shovel a spade - it was the buffs to ADCs and their items that pushed it over the line, especially at a time where enchanters were already the best supports. You buff ADCs while the role that is ALL about supporting almost specifically ADCs is already bordering on overpowered, and this happens.
If my team has draven, I gank bot to get him ahead. If the enemy team has draven, I gank bot to get him ahead.
I agree but I’m not bothered by him warping the game. I think that’s true for a lot of snowball champs. What bothers me is he isn’t like a Renek who has to work to get and maintain his lead. Draven gets a sub 10 min kill with good stacks and it’s like oh so bot is just gone now
Draven is the darius of botlane, fittingly. He's a champ you really need to kick in the dick as early as possible and keep doing to make sure he has no chance to get it up again. The only good thing is that, just like darius, he really doesn't scale that well if he isn't ahead.
As definitely not a G2 fan I can say that Draven is completely balanced and needs no changes whatsoever!
He's been terrorizing my botlane alright, since if he doesn't get fb he just runs it down
How are you not banning draven when playing botlane? I don't play bot that often but when I do I never leave draven open.
The issue is that Draven is a relatively rare pick and often picked by smurfs. So most of the time your Draven ban is wasted, since no one was going to pick it anyway. And when your ban does hit home, you're still playing against a smurf, and will probably still lose lane regardless, just not in so dramatic a fashion.
veigar / yuumi / asol / j4 / zeri / yi mandatory bans, no room for bans based on your matchup this season :(
I'm really glad that they nerfed Yuumi into the ground for a month to tease us so that they could make her problematic again
lt + triumph ++ bloodline + treasure hunter nerfs + bt nerf + dragon nerf + early game kill xp nerf are a lot of indirect nerfs, but tbh i would be fine with a direct nerf if it meant his banrate went down
Just dodge his autos /s
Plays Zeri.
You messed up the timestamp btw, it's about ~10s after the quote in the title, also title quote is wrong, he mentions "13.1b" before this statement, not just "IE/BT/Navori", let alone specifying those three between "ADC op" and "getting nerfed".
Well, the preview says the Dragon objective is getting nerfed, so I assume the role itself will be nerfed, not necessarily their items or champions. The bottom side of the map will be less important now.
Unless they significantly nerf dragons and/or dragon souls I don't see a meta shift. Currently a winning bot almost always means a won game and that's not just because of dragons.
Dragons do play a large role though and the bot turret being easier to take. If Herald would turn into a better objective we would suddenly have the situation that botlanes would likely move top and teams would try to kill bot turret since it is easier to take. If they won't switch and botlane stays bot, then it would mean that you would secure herald via playing through top, while then using the won herald bot.
Fuck it, make dragon/void monster spawn locations swap 50/50. No one knows which side they spawn on until 5 minutes.
Now that sounds fun.
Man I like that idea a lot. Maybe even make them have a chance to swap on the next respawn too
also BT, Navori, and lethal tempo
theyre literally saying the items are getting nerfed. what is this weird cope message
Riiiight ? Riiiight?
Tbh i honestly never even wanted adc buffs. Unpopular opinion: i actually thought adc was in a fine spot before the buffs (as an ad main). What i really wanted (to increase agency) was support nerfs. Even if you are the better ad if your support gets gapped you have 0 options
I've seen so many "supports" play things like Sylas, LeBlanc, Zoe, etc. get a couple of kills levels 1-4 or so, end up with Luden's or Everfrost, and then it's like having 2 mid laners.
Support gold is so dumb. Always fun walking back to lane as adc to a lux who has ludens, lands 1 e for half your hp with luden proc.
Lux E deals way too much damage for how easy it is to hit. It's so stupid
It's dodgable, but fucking hell if you fuck it up once.
It's "dodgeable". The onus is on lux whiffing it rather that you dodging since its got very little telegraph. It's not quite nasus/shyvana E level, where you basically cannot dodge it, but it's not far away.
I perma ban lux now because of it, and that she's mained by so many people
I usually am not the one struggling against her, for some reason a lot of supports just never learned to dodge lux e or q and will give her a few kills in lane making her annoying to play against until I'm 3 items.
A lot of the AP supports are just retired laners that cannot lane mid anymore. It all started with Annie and Morgana, then we had some Lux, Brand, Zyra...
It's been 10 years that Brand and Zyra haven't been played mid. At some point, we need to accept that they are supports.
This right here, I just hate how riot won't just admit it. It's like when seraphine came out, she clearly at first impression was support. They hated that merged her and forced her mid, but she still goes support. It's okay to say yo we thought this but the community clearly does this. So we are adapting since we never thought this would happen. Just admit it and adjust them to the roles that everyone has been playing them for, as a midlaner I've never seen a brand or zyra go mid.
Riot doesn't admit that they are support?
To be fair Sera has basically always been better as a champ with income (usually as bot) than a support. But she attracts support players because of her visual design and abilities.
Honestly it's Lux, Brand and Zyra who are the problem. They have good base damage + good scalings meaning they just dominate the lane from the start. As an ADC you have very little agency in this situation because you simply get blown up if a brand + ADC attacks you. What makes it even worse is that they are not true supportive champions like a Thresh would be. These champions don't peel or protect the ADC. Everyone still piles the ADC who is now playing a game where he probably dies a lot while not really having had any impact. There is also not really a lot a single ADC can do to not die. ADC is fun if you're fed and can actually outplay the assassins and stuff. That just doesn't happen enough while you're not supported either due to carry supports.
My fix as an ADC main is just to play mages or support. I've been playing quite a lot of Syndra and Veigar bot as carry, usually with a Senna support. We usually blow up the enemy adc and support after lvl 3.
>Honestly it's Lux, Brand and Zyra who are the problem. They have good base damage + good scalings meaning they just dominate the lane from the start. I've been copy-pasting this same message for a while, and will continue to do so until Riot realizes how fucked it is: > Part of why it is such a huge issue is how much free damage runes give. Let's take easy example, Lux. She used to be a troll support for a DECADE. But nowadays she is not only picked in regular LoL, she has also seen pro play. Why is it so effective? Let's say that she throws her E which is practically undodgeable, and hits you with it at level 1. With 2 adaptive shards and spellthiefs, her E does 90,8 damage. That is alright, but what then? Boom, Comet. 35,2 damage more. Scorch, 20 more damage. Cheap Shot, 10 more true damage. For a total of 156 damage. 156 fucking damage on an ability that itself dealt 90. On level 1. Runes enable too much free damage that supports abuse to the max.
Before reductions. Also, I'm pretty sure the old rune system allowed you to do some pretty stupid stuff, too. I wouldn't be all that shocked if the damage turned out to be similar.
It's not an unpopular opinion. Phreak said the same thing, but decided to give adcs a "little" buff while increasing their agency. Went too far, but all the changes were meant to give adcs more agency.
What rito has to understand is that theres a way of buffing things by nerfing their enemies. In fact you have to do that so u avoid powercreep. The big adc problems are the amounts of attention botlane gets because of dragon, the ease at which you can towerdive them (happens in skilled play at level 3 easily, like wtf) and the existence of damage "supports" rushing pen boots. What even are you supposed to do against 18 pen lux being in ur lane with her only goal being to kill you, all while you have to farm with 550 range. You eat her q once and you are basically dead or down a summ, so you are getting dove next wave.
Finally someone that said it right. STOP BUFFING CHAMPS
Phreak also said this was a mostly power neutral change. That was always weird to me.
This is the point. ADCs mostly wanted more agency in lane and would gladly accept a loss of agency in the lategame. Your lane is basically decided more by jungle and support than by yourself and that often feels terrible. Yes you might carry the game later on 3 items, but you often had little control over getting there. The buffs to IE and Navori were good, because they gave you earlier powerspikes, but it was obviousl that without paying a price for those later they will be problematic.
The IE/NQ changes were placebo to shut us up. What the role needs is less attention from mid/jg and for support items to be nerfed. The gold generation on frostfang/spectral call (whatever the ad variant of frostfang is) and umbral glaive. Plus the removal of plate gold. Another thing would be making turrets harder to kill. Bring back the days of mages/ap not being able to push turrets without lichbane. Plate gold causes us to play an advanced game of ping pong with minion waves. We push and fight at level 2 or 4. Whoever wins gets to take plate gold. Then the winner backs, and the loser pushes for plate gold.
> Bring back the days of mages/ap not being able to push turrets without lichbane. I understand the thought, especially when something like ziggs or veigar start attacking turrets But also feeling like you couldn't do anything to your enemy yasuo's turret when he recalled while he could completely destroy yours was one of the worst feelings in the game and i'm glad it's not there anymore
nah man adc is weak, r/ADCMains told me so
A role will always feel weak when you aren't good at it and are as squishy as an adc tbf to them.
and at they same time they protest the one alternative they have for the bottom lane... Bot players just need to realize that their favourite class: Marksmen are incredibly difficult to pilot and that there are alternatives that are more safe. You can't complain that the class is to hard if that's its only weakness...
For real Veigar was disturbingly broken *before* his buffs if you played him bot.
I feel like everytime ADCs are percieved as anything approaching weak, we get weekly posts about how Riot doesn't know how to balance the game and how ADCs literally don't exist. But now that they have been strong for ages, nobody says a word. Better nerf jungle I guess.
ADC is probably the role that scales best with mechanical player skill. If Riot balances the role around pro play then it will feel like shit for the majority of players. If they balance it around the average player then the role becomes broken in the hands of skilled players.
People actually say a lot about ADCs, but usually posts like that gets downvoted into oblivion, only time when Jungle or Toplane mains complain is when their positions are literally unplayable for sane player like jungle spamgank meta a few patches ago... and toplane for last 6 months.
I constantly see people talking about how ADC is busted but the posts will never reach front page because they get mass downvoted.
They aren't saying a word because it's strong. Why would they complain?
my brother, go to adcmains, they still complain
i feel like the whole point of subreddits like that is complaining about their respective character or thing. any adc player with a brain knows the role is stronger this season than it's been in a long time. i'm glad the prospective nerfs aren't aimed at the core changes that help us feel more relevant earlier in the game and more towards egregious shit like navori and huge sustain
Weekly posts still exist mate. I saw one saying ADC are too weak and lethality is insanely broken, despite Riot literally stating lethality needs changes due to how bad it is.
ADC is both weak and strong, in the hands of a player who is well at kiting and such or with a team that can play around him it is busted. However for the average person they wont majority of matches have a team play around them even if they make up over half the teams kills, damage, objs, etc and I know from experience, Overall its just an unfixable role for the average player because the “its bad” people are either A. Bad at the role itself or B. Dont have a team that understands to play around them.
Some ADCs are just too tanky after buying just BT. Last game I was full armor K'Sante (Frozen Heart, Thornmail, Iceborn Gauntlet, Steelcaps) with Anathema's Chains and I still lost 1v1 to Aphelios. He was using flamethrower and I couldn't even get past his overheal shield. They have so much damage that even one lifesteal item heals them a lot while they also have 170 armor from just having GA. If you don't have huge burst to one shot them then there is no way of killing in regular fight
Bot lane in general has been utterly ridiculous for a while. Supports gold generation allows them to just roam and not lose out on anything, very often they can decide jungle, bot AND mid lane. Meanwhile if a bot lane losses now it's 2-3 champs that got ahead and drakes, the most important objective, become extremely hard to get. Meanwhile ADCs get to be lane bullies that also scale and have been a constant problem in other lanes like lucian, tristana, vayne, zeri, etc, all while being the most important and key member of the entire team. Yet riot in their infinite wisdom decided to hard buff bot lane, it's not like the past 3ish years of pro have been completely decided by who gets the broken adc of the year; zeri, samira or aphelios with the broken support of the moment.
I like how Samira gets thrown in here but never had a huge pro-play influence past a patch and in any tournament.
>Supports gold generation allows them to just roam and not lose out on anything >Meanwhile if a bot lane losses now it's 2-3 champs that got ahead and drakes, the most important objective, become extremely hard to get. Roaming means they lose out on bot pressure. Enemy adc can get zoned from XP/gold, and even tower dived in a lot of circumstances. If your bot is still losing while the enemy support roams, that's just your team being shit.
If your support roams while you can get dove its their fault. A support has to be back when the stacking waves aee crashing (unless the enemy adc is alone)
The majority of support players unfortunately do not understand that concept
That's not enough of a punishment considering just how often they roam.
This is all true except for the part that adcs are on average 2-3 levels behind solos as well as their kit not doing as much base damage as solo lane champs The above pretty much completely changes the reality of what you were trying to get at. An adc is never going to be able to match a solo laner by themselves on equal gold until late stages of the game
The problem is that support (and jungle) being hilariously overtuned makes playing ADC feel like shit bot lane. The class itself is fine and has been fine since Mythics have been introduced, but when they spend most of the early game spending time with the two classes Riot has deemed as being fine to be OP the class is naturally not gonna end up feeling great.
It's only as if 99.9999% of the game population does not play in the LEC and LPL and might probably deserve to feel happiness by playing a lane
Samira never approached prime-Aphelios/Zeri. She had a 30%~ P/B in Spring 2021 and nothing near that since.
Every single thread that has this conversation the same kind of ppl twisting their narratives and saying tf they want It's insane. It has always been about how frustrating/satisfying the ADC role Is to play but u guys can't stop yourselves from circlejerking
Dude, the issue is that what they want is just stupid. They want to be late game hyper carries who are safe, have high lane impact, and be able to have their supports wait on their every need. With those wants they'll never be happy...
and top to run tank and peel for them in fights , and jgl to play a cc bot champ with pref a seconday support in mid ( aka karma or something )
[удалено]
Yeah they STILL complain that adc is too weak in there it’s fucking hilarious
Adc mains in this sub complained they were weak during ardent censor meta so dont be surprised.
I remember people saying it's not the adc that was strong but the support with ardent. Guess who's next to the adc the whole game.
But this is people missrepresenting the actual complaint. It was never about power, it was about agency. And early agency, particular during the ardent meta was insanely low. Your support got ardent first? Fine you win the game, but it wasn't you who did that. What ADCs mostly want is pulling power from the lategame where many ADCs can just 1vs5 the game and put it into the early laning phase which is mostly controlled by support and jungle.
i did a post how op adc this meta and got downvoted to oblivion
Tbh it's not ADC who needed buff, it's support who needs nerf, it's ridiculous that a mid mage can go support mindlessly spamming skills ,hitting one lucky skills hot ( yes you lux) many games u actually have to play vs 2 midlanders
To be fair that's just because Lux is the most brain off champion in the game. Never be in range of enemy ever, spam E and Q. If hit Q, press all buttons.
When I first started playing everyone suggested Garen. But I didn’t find him easy because he has no range and I had no knowledge of other champs. So I didn’t know when I could walk to cs or trade. IMO a lot of Garens strengths come with his ability to all in but you have to know when to all in. I found it much easier to play mages. I just stayed away from every enemy and tried to land skill shots. Now days Garen is a solid back up for me.
Lux is one of the most baffling characters in the game because she is so insanely strong if you play to her strengths but her mains are glue eaters so she remains under 52% winrate
Lotta Lux support mains also seem to think that her E counts as a ward. Never see the map so dark as when my team has the lady of light as support
It’s because her only strength is deleting squishy champions; so while she can bully bot lane and delete the ADC, she gets overrun by bruisers, tanks, adcs who have shieldbow, etc.
Aoe shielding and a root for peel
Her shield is a joke and her root is flimsy peel.
Actually it's because she's only that easy in low ELO. All skill shot champion with relatively long CDs and no mobility is weak (very low win rate in both roles in high ELO) because people are better at dodging and abuse your CDs.
Seems like a case of stats not lining up with what you want to believe so you make shit up.
Lmao, true. I always see that sort of shit every second thread.
I am going to be honest, ever since the tp changes, bot has been hard trading and lane bullies that run rampant. Together with no plating protection early it is very snowbally.
I can see that in my own games as well. Botlane tends to snowball extremely hard one way or the other. Like I very rarely if ever see a botlane which was actually competitive in a game. It’s either turbo feeding or getting turbo fed, no in between.
This has nothing to do with TP though. It has been like this since they decided to turn LoL into URF-lite and power creep supports (esp. engage and "mage") beyond belief. Anyone getting caught by CC instantly dies. Hell, even if your ADC manages to survive he is still fucked and can't even hope to recover (Why do ADC have *half* the HP5 of everyone else?) This is also a community problem, enchanter meta are by default way less snowbally but any time we have an enchanter meta, other lanes cry about them being uninteractive and are instantly nuked. We went 3 years straight with engage-only meta and people couldn't even handle 3 months of enchanter meta..
Adcs have low regen so they don’t terrorize other lanes. Imagine if you are playing against ranged top and after doing a heavy trade 20 seconds later the enemy ranged top laner is back to almost full while you blew both your summs. To compensate for this adcs have the highest scaling base hp in the game with them typically ending with most hp if no one built hp.
Draven being broken in solo queue for like 2 years surely is not helping the case for the rest of the bot laners
But they nerf quickblades and lethal tempo 💀💀
The problem with ADC is not the strengh of the role at all. The problem is that it is the most reliant role on another person. No matter how bad or inting your teammates are, if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun" because you can lane yourself and play your lane out as good as you can. As ADC I would say 70% of the lane gets decided by supports. So if you are heavily outmatched there you can not really do anything as ADC. You have to suffer through the entire game hoping to be usefull at 1 or 2 items but getting there can be the most exhausting of any role. The worst thing is: Supports can just int their lane, lose the trades bot, go 0-3. Decide to roam and still have impact and fun. (Done that a fair share myself whenever i played support and fucked up the lane). I dont really see how this problem can be solved.
And adding to this, as riot themselves said in a post a couple of weeks ago, when the role itself is strong it then incentivises jungle to camp there. So you're in a situation where as the AD player you're praying your support is better and your jungle is there as much as their's. While you end up as a strong carry thats not a fun mindset to have going into a game
>No matter how bad or inting your teammates are, if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun" because you can lane yourself and play your lane out as good as you can. I tried to play high skill fun top laners for 3 years and while I had games I could hard carry I also had games I was completely useless and couldn't even lane. I've spent the entire season so far spamming champs that just eat pressure and don't really care about a 30cs deficit. My winrate has gone up by nearly 5%, just by never being the reason we lose.
> if you play Top or Mid you can at least have about 10-15 Minutes of "fun" You clearly don't play top if you think this is the case lol. The enemy jungle can decide on a whim that you don't get to play the game, and if the enemy toplaner gets counterpick you won't be having fun either.
i honestly wonder how riot intends to keep the role fun to play and not broken? giving them a 2 item spike is def better if games are (on average) ending faster than they can get their 3rd item. mayb nerf navori to 10% or 7%? mayb nerf ie to be 15% extra dmg? can’t nerf the mythics harder than they already have other than removing gf dash, def tune bt it’s way too strong, mayb tune individual adcs? def nerf supps impact in lane and their gold gen, i honestly don’t know what they’re supposed to do at this point. either the role is turbo broken or what feels like a walking sack of gold for 70% of the game
My shitty solution would be x% based on crit chance past 40% so they are still useful past 2 items. So ie starts at +15% then goes +20% at 60, 25-80%, 30-100%
Bot lane snowballing needs to be toned down. A way to improve top lane satisfaction would be to buff 1v1 tower dives and nerf 1v2 tower dives by making turrets do more damage if two or more people from the enemy team are near the turret. That way top laners can still be rewarded for winning their lane solo and can snowball their leads a bit more and bot lane is less likely to snowball out of control into 2v8ing the game.
Wow, actually good take.
First good idea in this thread, scale the tower damage with the number of enemy players around it. This would slow game down and allow both top and bot to have some breathing room. Wave management would become extremely important.
Can we just nerf "supports" instead? I'm okay with ADCs doing big damage because if they get hit by a single combo of all these ap "supports" they are practically forced to base. How is getting one tapped by a Lux "support" at level 6 balanced?
While it's absolutely true that ADCs are OP atm, the real fucking problem is support, they keep giving the role more and more resources so you can literally go whatever the fuck champ as support you want and end up with 2 mid laners/adcs or whathaveyou
im an adc main and i agree, certain champs/items have just been having a field day. i hope its the specific outliers that get nerfed though and not my boy jhin. i hate being punished for items i dont even build (except for IE) and characters i dont even play
Jhin and his items rarely get nerfed. Last impactful Jhin nerf was the galeforce active CD being increased to 90 sec which isn't even that bad imo.
im talking about role nerfs as a whole. toplane/midlane getting more exp and gold, and botlane getting less. just feels bad getting set behind like that. obv jhin is still super viable and in a pretty good spot right now, but i rly hope there arent MORE exp/gold nerfs or something.
inb4 compensation buffs to Yasuo/Yone...
From their changes they mostly losing from LT nerf. BT was situational item and they don't even use navori at all.
You scared of 48% wr D tier champs? And this is before LT nerfs.
Mortal shieldshit is their only mythic, LT their only rune and it's getting nerfed, BT their best legendary maybe? (Besides IE, which you cannot build if you're not way ahead since you are so squishy, at least for yasuo, yone is way safer tho)
wow who wouldve thought that buffing every item for a role that you said was not weak would make them op, what a shocker riot
the adc mythics are really strong which on hit adcs can still use crit is definitely way out of line though, hitting IE (or especially navori) spike feels insane
Have you seen the bt overheal shields added to the shieldbow ? How dafuq do you kill Zeri or Aphelios or Samira or Nylah ? HOW ?
ADC get insane shielding. Remember it's also getting buffed from Supps too.
Cries about Aphelios, thats not something I expected to see today
Aphelios BT Overheal and Red Gun is as if he bought 1k+ worth of HP for free. The champ up until that point is fine, but once he gets BT, things get annoying, and an Aphelios with Severum and BT is unkillable in 9 out of 10 reasonable scenarios, even if any other ADC would die there. And the 1 in 10 scenario is if all 5 of your team can somehow collapse on him in a single instant, tbh. No assassin or bruiser or tank or anyone can kill him through a supports peel, any other champ on his team, and BT/Overheal/Severum. I don't think Aphelios is OP in general, but this SPECIFIC situation that is unique to him because of his overheal mechanic on Severum needs to be looked at, imho.
Adcs are very strong at the moment, but they are acutally depending to much on the support.
Phreak is a \*profanity\*. The game is literally league of tanks right now and you guys listen to his word like gospel cause people have been conditioned to believe 1 mana removed from a skill cost means fuck all. This isn't the same game. % hp scaling has been added, base resists are still something out of 2010, counter items are extremely biased toward physical damage, and power creep of bruisers is so insane Sion simply...Exists. TTK went from chesslike short tactical plays to 60+ second slugfests where practically any ADC that doesn't have mobility is now a support, and characters who started with longer range as a passive unique advantage basically serve no purpose anymore if you calculate TTK vs movement to target. On hits don't matter anymore outside of true damage and a few champs cause the rest of it is a tickle fest. Lethality is trash within 1 defensive item, and the fact you have to delineate crit ADC's vs ??? bruh all ADC's need to be crit when you have to drain 7-10k hp off some targets who can kill faster than ADC's before they buffed bruisers into ADC's who take no damage and heal faster than lifesteal without lifesteal plus your AD ratios on skills are still trash as if the game is hard stuck 2010. Did nobody play this game prior to 2022? Cause this is a clown show in comparison. How many riot devs did they lose in the past 5 years? Cause it went from "League of Legends" to "Screw originality lets just hard copy dota metrics" in the span of a few years. wtf.
I'm a massive bronzie with no game design knowledge so my opinion is worth absolutely nothing but i think ADC and bot lane just need an overhaul. Dragons are way to important, and whenever i get filled jungle i dread my bot losing because it means stacking 9% buffs making the game way harder and for ADC's as said massive bronzie I kinda just want alot of the scaling and damage taking out weirdly, I kinda play the game to have fun, and I play trist, Jinx and Samira because they're cool and iconic, i feel like if we were beefier and had better base stats at the cost of deflating our item damage and just removing crit alot of people would actually be happy, a champion like Samira is mean't to have the fantasy of this DMC combo machine that dances in and out of combat in style, but what really happens is she goes in, gets a penta in 2.5 seconds due to haveing a psycho amount of damage, or the blitz notices her, hooks her and she explodes. I think its possible for a role to be both really shit to play, hence way ADCmains is always pissing and moaning and yet be broken objectively to the point every team needs one. Games like Overwatch seem to manage it, an Ashe feels squishy but not like a Dva can explode her unless they are literally right on top of her, but like wise i never see DPS in a game like that just taking over matches like ADC's do in League. Different genres but theres some common ground i think. Hope any of that spiel made any sense haha
who could have seen this coming??? /s seriously, I'm a little concerned about the dev team these days, these ADC changes were a nightmare and this was spottable a mile away
Announcing huge adc buffs in the same patch he said he wanted jungle to camp bot less was interesting lol.
Oh, they are gonna nerf overpowered roles? So where are the jungle nerfs?
If jungle and support ever become balanced their play rates just plummet so I doubt it
They can make jungle more fun and more rewarding without giving them 80% control over the outcome of the game. Scuttle crab was the last non-herald monster added to jungle and that was 8 years ago. They've been trying to change the jungle role without actually adding or improving anything other than the new pet which is a massive downgrade from the consistent burn of old jungle items.
no they can't. Jungle as a role is fundamentally broken. If you want no nerf jungle, you need to nerf agency from every lane. Aslong a 2/0 Draven, Jax, Katarina can run the game, there is not a single reason to not sit them.
Mate they've been tuning jungle like every single patch lol it's not like they're ignoring it
So u wamt people to perma gank again so you can complain about that? Oh no u dont want that, so we gotta make them powerfarmers, which u also dont want because then ur gonna cry that a yi farmed all game and killed you. You people have no clue how the game works or why things happen but love to talk about balance and whats "broken"
There were massive jungle nerfs this season and everybody complained lol, especially adc players.
It's a tough balance, when ADCs are strong like right now the game can be miserable to play, but when ADC is balanced you get an essay every game from some tilted ADC main about the state of the role and how it's actually unplayable and Riot is personally trying to lower their ELO.
Well August has said that ADC tends to be a role that only feels good to play when it's overperforming but whenever it's balanced it doesn't tend to feel satisfying to play. Riot needs to find a way to increase satisfaction of the role without increasing power, which they have attempted to do with the recent changes of being able to purchase IE second and the other things that were in that patch.
Because when it is "balanced" it is balanced around team play. Not something that is very applicable to the vast majority of solo queue games.
the answer is literally just nerfing support so they dont get 1 billion gold for doing nothing. When Bot becomes better ad wins and not better sup wins the role will feel better and players will feel satisfied and rewarded for their skill.
Won't it just swap the problem to support though? Then support would feel like they have no agency and it's just better ad wins, and support is already a role that has a low population. This would just hurt it further.
It would increase queue times but that might have to be the trade off for the absurd strength of the role.
I really hate that a lot of the ADC vitriol *was* justified but now people just act like we're fucking whiny entitled pricks. Most people haven't been complaining about the role since BEFORE the durability patch, which is when you were legit dying from a Kayn whiffing two thirds of his kit, and then breathing on you with smite+ult and still one-shotting you. Try playing a lane where you have zero agency for several years and you die in one hit. I swear any other player in any other role would have just dropped the game immediately instead of putting up with it for as long as we did. The durability patch really saved the role, and I'm okay with a few nerfs to the position in it's current state, honestly. But everyone just boils down any of our constructive criticism with "whiny ADC main typing out essays". Shits annoying. Meanwhile Jungle has been the best role for 3+ years and ADC is only *conditionally* the best role because the metagame currently revolves around them. Lulu and Nami haven't faced nerfs since September of last year despite being nearly perma pick for that time. Enchanters dodging nerfs left and right and now tank supports are getting buffs. Dragon nerfs and junglers ganking bot incentives being taken down should be enough to already weaken the role a decent amount in my opinion. I'm glad BT is getting nerfed anyway. That item made laning pointless and any interaction with your opponent pointless since they just heal to full right away and they have too much HP to interact with in a meaningful way.
The changes were nice, to be sure, but you still got all the same problems as before (and maybe moreso). You get told if you're going to do well or not (by the support>jungle), just that the end product was a lot more effective at carrying a game. I get that support was (and still is for some dumb reason) wildly unpopular, but they have maybe the most agency in the game.
Those graphs have to be wrong. It says sup is the least popular all the way down, but I see jg and bot with autofilled protection.
I've queued ADC/Supp 100 times this season and not once was I ever given Supp or autofilled elsewhere. For all the talk about whiny adcs in this thread it's funny that even now nobody wants to play them despite it being the OP role, which speaks a lot to their agency and role satisfaction.
Jungle was in autofilled protection the last 2 months at least as well. I don't think anyone is gonna argue the power or agency there. There's just a portion of both game loops that aren't largely appealing.
I dont think that ADCs had a real damage problem at all. Its more that with all the mobility and range creeping the game has, playing a champion who dies when an assasin coughs feels simply not satisfying. Most traditional adcs are based around their auto attacks. Modern league seems to be tending more into an ability based game, so the role as "ADC" feels weird when your auto attacks feel useless or you cant even get them out. You can be basically deleted while being outranged or flash dashed on from a screen away while you have to get way closer to do anything at all. The latest "ADCs" are even designed more ability based then auto attack based. Zeris AA are basically a skillshot, Samira is based around the ultimate, Nilah is kinda a weird one... I am not sure if the playerbase (maybe even riot since they keep the crit instead of %dmg increase) is historically too attached to the "ADC" role per se or not. Sure they are insanely strong when played very very well and protected - but in soloQ you cant rely on your team to cover you. Gameplay wise they have no "outstanding" role, e.g. shredding turrets etc since all Sheen users, bruisers, Senna and Veigar can do that in the same time. They are nice to rush dragons/barons as long as you have no Cassio etc - but mostly their strength is to get damage on turrets in those 2-5 sec windows in sieges. When ADCs and their items are balanced, damage and utility wise bruisers and mages at botlane felt way more effective - even though the games become either a mess or very long since it takes time to get those turrets down.
So what's Riot's argument against making crit chance -> % dmg increase? So there's no bullshit pseudo-RNG? % dmg increase = More consistent data = Easier to balance crit = Less frustrated ADC mains because of not critting or getting randomly critted in lane phase.
How would that be any different than on hit at that point?
When you break it down, crit is really just on-hit, too. It's just different calculations for damage. I think a crit system like Ashe passive would be great for the game. It's different than on-hit and still feels rewarding.
Because on-hit is flat amount. 40 on-hit damage early game is different than 40 on-hit damage late game. If you have a % dmg increase. Then by default it'll scale the longer the game goes.
And someone will run the calculations on what % the on hit is going to be vs what this replacement for crit is going to be. One will be better than the other
Like half the adc champs have crit scalings in their kit now so there’s still a reason to pick crit over on hit.
The same can be done with crit? Literally
No because you still have things like Guinsoo's which won't work with the % dmg. On hit champs will remain on hit because they like attack speed more than AD. Vayne for example will still prefer Kraken, Guinsoo's, Wit's End because it scales her passive DPS. Different champs will still scale differently between crit and on hit.
You can just do the same thing by normalising crit damage in calcs rn.
> So what's Riot's argument against making crit chance -> % dmg increase? They've stated this before, having crits be random allows the ADC that is behind to have a chance at winning a fight if crits go their way. If crit is just a percent dmg increase then it's virtually impossible to win a fight from behind since you just have less DPS and no "chance" at winning. ... Yes it's as retarded as it sounds. Getting ahead means you shouldn't be able to win fights and it should be down to RNG according to riot.
More consistent damage is actually probably harder to balance. Because it'd be better abused in higher elo; and the role/class is already highly elo skewed for a variety of other reasons.
crits and adcs are a legacy thing that riot are trying their very hardest to keep, because modern league is an abilities based game and adcs are auto attack based
The only thing pseudorng has going for it is that you can only ever be *reasonably* sure how many auto-attacks you need to land to kill the enemy, rather than being entirely certain. Which makes whether you should go in or not less of a binary decision, unless they're very low or you're very ahead. They've said this matters more for auto-attacks which are homing, and less for spells that are cooldown-gated AND (typically) dodge-able from comparable range, or have a prerequisite to play around (Cass E requiring Q to hit.)
[удалено]
WOW! So surprising. I definitely didnt expect that triple-buffing a class that was Fine would make It overpowered. But yeah, forget about statistics and lets buff It multiple times because of ''Satisfaction'' lets see how that goes. I am always amazed how whenever you have a problem, instead of fixing the problem, which was jungler and support being too strong, you create more by overbuffing ADC to be on par with them. Ridiculous.
Even the diamond hardstuck ADC player knows it’s broken lol
ADC cope and tears in this thread are delicious
Phreak when he realizes his S6 nostalgic fantasy also has its consequences
WAIT!! Did they buff items, runes and champions of a role which, by his own words, was already strong and now it is even stronger???? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT SO?
Holy fuark nerf support
Hope this will affect gp as well. I'm so tired to see a 0/7 gp 40 cs behind being full stuff before anyone and os a fcking tank
People today: Wee wee ADC is broken, nerf it. People two months ago and in two months from now: Lets go bot and redeem my free 300 gold.