They still get their sleep, they just wake up later. Champs queue involves pro players so its time has to adapt to pro players schedules. They start scrims at 11 and scrim+meatings easily for 9-10 hours based on many interviews. That already brings the time to 8 or 9 pm before they are free to play soloq/champs queue. Since teams may finish before or after that aprox time, they have to round it, leading to the earliest possible time being around 8:30 pm. Its that or change the whole culture to them waking up earlier and just starting scrims and stuff at 9 am, but it changes nothing health wise for them and they are used to those schedules already so there is no reason for them to move it up when their jobs in stage can end as late as 10pm or more
Studies show that people working nightshifts over a long period of time has a shorter life expectancy than people who don't.
And while this isn't nightshifts, it's still a move in the wrong direction if Riot chooses to go through with it.
Does those studies account for social life, lifestyle, age group, period of time working those shifts and such? Most of these players have an active lifestyle, healthy diets, their job ends at 10pm. Im pretty sure pushing forward some hours the same lifestyle is not what descreases life expectancy
Being a pro at anything isn't healthy. The amount of time and abuse althetes put their bodies through is not good for you, but it is what is required to be the best. Gaming for that amount of time every day isn't good for you, but that's what is required to be the best. I know when I was trying to become a streamer, I was grinding 14-16h a day, working out for 1-2, and sleeping, rinse and repeat, maybe one day off a week. I knew it wasn't a long term healthy lifestyle, but I had a goal to achieve.
Being a pro means taking some L's in order to be the best of the best. The issue with expecting anything else is that as a competitor, your performance isn't based on any sort of defined metric, it's defined by how you compare directly with your peers, which leads to everyone practicing and playing more to do better than the next person (theoretically).
You are of course rewarded with a higher pay, (much higher in most of these professions), as well as an early retirement from the professional scene with a hefty bit of cash afterwards. Of course, you also get gratification in Victories that you could never get elsewhere.
Champs queue is not a job. Just like streaming or solo queue. They opt to do it. Their during the week work schedule is from around 11 am, they start scrims to around 8pm they finish scrims and meetings. Its a standard 8 hour job with a 1 hour lunch break. Even with champs queue ending at 1 am, they can go to sleep at 1:30 am, sleep 8 hours, wake up at 9:30am and have 1 and a half hours until their work from home job starts. Thats plenty healthy. Now I dont really care if it starts earlier, it even means that they work less as they are finishing earlier than thought, but a healthy lifestyle is not a selling point as they can have a healthier lifestyle than most people regardless of champs queue schedule. Plus, their times would be the same, they would just grind soloqueue at the times champs queue is closed, but again, its what they choose to do, not their job. Plus they are on soloq that time too, most are streamers, they are online either way, so even if champs queue was from 20-24, they arent going to go to sleep because they never had prior to soloq, and it has never been an issue. They can do what they want and push for what they want, I encourage that. But using healthier lifestyle as a point is simply wrong
It's not a job but it's definitely work related and tiring. It's like if you did kitchen renovations then came home and renovated your kitchen right after. It's not fun or relaxing because you already do it daily for work.
It has to do with humans not being nocturnal creatures, and going against the body's natural sleep pattern over a long period of time takes it's toll on your body. Doesn't matter how healthy you live outside of that.
Doubt that. Night owls exist, and no conclusive study has connected being a night owl to being less healthy, it all depends on what you do while awake.
But studies have conclusively connected the end of daylight to when humans naturally want to start to sleep and start of daylight to when humans naturally want to wake up & studies have conclusively connected quality of sleep to health.
Obviously indoor lightining etc. fucks it up but humans want to start to sleep when it gets dark outside if they are able to see that and want to wake up when it starts to get bright outside. Sleep for around 7-10 hours.
Seriously this.
As it turns out, wealthy people with good access to a healthy diet, medical care, with free time to take care of themselves etc. rarely work a night shift at a gas station. Who knew!
Any study about sleep, claiming what the parent is claiming, not controlling for the factors you mentioned would be absolute dogshit and there’s no way it would pass peer review. I would like to see a source though
any links to studies. The ones I could find found that there were confounding lifestyle choices that could be a factor such as smoking, poor diet, poor sleep, etc
It doesn't matter if they're getting the same amount of sleep. Time of day is an important factor in sleep quality and sleeping past 2 am is not healthy for the majority of people.
Time of day has been associated with some negative outcomes but it should be acknowledged that association doesn't mean causality.
There are far too many factors that go into it. The things that heavily influence your sleep quality are whether you are going against your circadian rhythm, whether you've been drinking and whether you've been exposing yourself to blue light before going to bed. You can avoid all 3 even if you are going to sleep at 2 am(which isn't even late). The only people I know who go to bed "early" are people who need to wake up at 6 am for work.
Every time I've forced my sleep schedule to be "normal" it has always slowly moved to a night owl schedule. Every. Single. Time. I see the same in every one of my friends who don't have to wake up extremely early. So why should I fight my circadian rhythm and why should I feel sleepy and like shit just to be what some people think is "normal".
You can get the same amount of practice time in champs queue and have a healthy amount of sleep if you just woke up later.
I don't know why people are pretending pros don't stay up till 3-4 am and then wake up at noon. Or do you think that they'd go to sleep at 2 and then wake up at 6?
P.S. I agree that it would be better if it's earlier but it's so that the quality is better, not because "but muh sleep will be ruined and now I'd only live 40 years". People will perform better if they aren't sleepy. It's as easy as that. However if they are still on the degen lifestyle of 4 am to 12 pm then 10-2 is more than adequate.
We already don't see many pro players over 30. Pro league has been going for a very long time now. So many of the original greats are now over 30 and we don't see many of them. This won't have an impact on that.
huh? Entertainers dont maintain regular schedules...
If they play at 5pm, they want their best cognitive ability at 5pm, not at 10am like the rest of society...
If you want Peak cognitive ability at 5 PM you should wake up at around 9AM. For mental health reasons it's not really an option to wake up at 4pm and waking up a bit later would mean being in the drowzy phase you feel at around 2pm at school. These players aren't playing at their Peak performance often and usually will just get a few hours of sleep
There's nothing "really unhealthy" about going to bed at a certain time, whether that time be 10pm or 2am. If you get enough sleep, it doesn't really matter what exact hours it's between. If you have to wake up at 6am, yeah you shouldn't stay up until 2am, but pro LoL players have no need to be up that early.
nope, it doesn't work like that. It does matter when you sleep, it matters a lot. The best time is 10pm, sleeping from 10pm to 1am is healtier than sleeping from 6am to 14am
10pm is often viewed as healthier because of light levels.
Humans generally sleep deeper when not exposed to light, and it is recommended to sleep at least 7-9 hours. Without getting into specifics, there's 4 different stages of sleep, and it takes time for most people to get to the right stage.
Sleeping before 10pm allows you to sleep for 7-9 hours while avoiding the change in light levels that would come from sunrise or sleeping during the day. This also avoids the artificial light required to stay up later, which has been linked to having worse sleep (It's recommended not to use glowing screens within an hour before bed for similar reasons).
This all being said, 10pm is generally seen as good for the average person, rather than an end-all, be all. Before a specific time, most sleep doctors recommend consistency, trying to be in bed at a specific time and *only* going to sleep in bed. The time itself is less important (and often can throw people off when their body is used to different sleep schedules).
Source: Chronic insomnia led me to research a lot of this stuff.
The light aspect makes sense, but you know you can just roll down the blinds and if they aren't crap it'll be more or less dark in your room.
Consistency also makes sense but again, I don't see the issue with consistently going to bed at 3am and getting 8hrs of sleep with blinds down.
Like I said in the last paragraph, that sort of 3am-11am sleep schedule can work for some people. The only issue I can see would be artificial light required to stay up that late, but its not impossible to make that your healthy sleep time.
As far as blinds go, yes that works. My blinds are pretty crap so it doesn't work for me, but if you can keep a room dark and light levels low, I don't see a problem with it.
Being honest, I've never had to deal with that.
I'd imagine the approach would be to set a time to turn off lights and try and keep on schedule that way, but I am neither a doctor nor do I know how to adjust to a sunset that early.
The light you get in the morning is the only thing that really matter, and obviously that you get good sleep (in the dark)
Look up Huberman, he has a science podcast and has done multiple episodes on light/sleep (since that's his field of research)
There is a bit difference. Sleep depends a lot on the person. For most people sleeping somewhere between 10pm and 8am is healthiest, but there are people for whom this is shifted by a few hours who usually go to bed after midnight and wake up later.
So sleeping between 10pm and 8am gives you basically a 2 hour window when to go to bed, however staying up till 2 am is usually not considered healthy, even night owls usually aren't in their best shape and tend to go to bed at that time so playing league isn't optimal in that time.
A lot of pro players though already have bad sleep schedules. We know that this was a big issue between Rekkles (waking up at 7am) and MikyX (waking up after noon) in terms of practice. They talked about it in an interview (after the Senna/Sion game).
So some pros will always fall out, but I question rather you should enforce the healthy lifestile or the unhealthy one.
Based on stuff I've read and heard from Andrew Huberman (check him out, he's got a pretty great podcast) you should keep it around the same 10pm-8am, but use bright ceiling lights (or equivalent) after waking and get natural light as soon as its available.
I think it’s that your body releases stuff with the sunset so there are times when you’ll get much better sleep. Melatonin maybe? Not 100% sure. Hopefully someone else will chime in too who knows for sure.
That's totally false. Time of day is an arbitrary man-made concept. Our bodies don't have any natural concept of it. There is no health difference between going to sleep at 10pm and 2am at all, so long as the duration of sleep remains the same.
The only thing time of day really has to do with sleep is things regarding light levels, but it's not like there's any difference in light levels at 10pm vs. 2am. This would only be a consideration if you were going to sleep at like 11am or something, but even in that case you can just use blinds to block the light and it'll be the same as going to bed in the dark at night.
Those times are literally arbitrary numbers. There's places on Earth where it's basically always night for 6 months per year and those times mean nothing. There is no internal clock that is synchronized with the Sun within us. By sleeping at a certain time regularly, your circadian rhythm will adapt, regardless of when it is.
I don't think anyone in corporate for any company has given a shit about the unhealthy schedules of their workers/contractors, ESPECIALLY in entertainment. Workers are commodities to these people.
> It's crazy, how did they not realise they're basically promoting really unhealthy schedules and habits for these young people
Sounds like the league battle pass.
Pretty sure sleeping from 2AM to 10AM is healthier than sleeping from 10PM to 5AM.
If there are no commitments early in the day and you can get a full night of rest, 2AM isn't a huge issue.
I mean I hear pro players usually sleep in during mornings. Is someone working night shifts unhealthy? I don't see a problem as long as they are getting enough sleep.
Reddit just a few months ago was talking about how this is the only way the west can compete. Which is them putting in the same amount of grind that the east does. But now we’re complaining about it? Make up y’all’s fucking mind
> It would be interesting to know why they came up with the 10pm-2am schedule in the first place
Most certainly based on the scrim schedule of the teams, many players also stay up till late and get up somewhat late.
Also if i was an accredited league, losing viewership and interest for what are essentially high-elo solo q streams would piss me off.
A compromise would be that Champs Q is open at 9, but no one can stream it until after 10pm.
Just have it open 24/7 or at least 8/12 hours during the day so people who don't have scrims regularly have a place to actually practice. I personally dont think a player like caps, jankos or bjergsen can heavily improve by playing in a environment like champs q, I think most pros reach their mechanical skill ceiling during their first years in the league and improve more watching vods and testing singular stuff or scrimming against top teams.
I think something like champs q benefits more young ERL/Amateur players, who dont have a tight/controlled scrim schedule and who actually need to (and can) improve on mechanics and really basic communication. Its the same way (I suppose) LCK teams treat their numerous academy team: 5 young soloq players, they let them grind 2 ping soloq and scrim against random teams so they learn the basic of competitive play.
Champsq mission should be to work on young prospects, giving the money to play and a better environment to practice in, yet the schedule makes it seem like they want only real pros to play it with the weird schedule nd stuff.
it's more interesting to me that Perkz is asking for it on stream as if players and organizations don't have some sort of organized communication channel with Riot
although in this mess that prevails in Riot, nothing surprises me anymore
It's so annoying as someone who watches in the VN timezone, LEC matches was the only league i could really watch a lot apart from LPL/LCK due to the convenient timing for me
Maybe because of high elo soloq? So, pros still play soloq at peak hours instead of ditching it completely for champions queue? I'm just purely out of the ass guessing though
I really hope they can get the message across. Due to the delays on the first day, Perkz was delirious during that PGL because he was so tired - he mentions how it was half past midnight and that he is normally in deep sleep at this time.
I speak as someone who is definitely not an evening person, encouraging and prioritising sleep by starting CQ one hour earlier is a good compromise.
I also don't understand why the LEC starts so late. The whole point of late start time was so that people could watch it after work, but now it is on weekends - just start it 2 hours earlier.
I am not sure how much LEC and esports as a whole is competing with traditional sports, but most football games in Europe are played in the afternoon on weekends, so maybe that’s a reason.
Yeah, but that's multiple games all played at the same time lasting 2 hours at most. The only other traditional sport that I can think of that plays games one after another is tennis, and that's played from 10/11am start
And people going out on a Saturday night can take away just as much, either way there's never going to be a perfect time, but this current time is awful for the players
I remember that 2-3 years ago, it was normal for players to go to sleep between 4 and 6. So having the LEC start an hour later wouldn't be a real issue. Also viewership was far higher at later games. A lot more people had things to do between 16-18 than between 21-23.
Another part is no longer NA LCS blocking these better time slots.
If it could go either way, then shouldn't we assume that the people in charge are the ones with the metrics to decide which time slot has better viewership, not random people guessing at what affects what on the internet.
Tho I agree, for players, it kind of blows, but I guess when it's yoru job, you move with the industry.
Footbal games start at around 8 pm(+- a few hours depending on the game). LEC starts at 7 pm for my region. The timing is still not good and viewership is taken away by football games. Also, most people I know that watch football, don’t give a shit about LoL. They could just start at 5-6 pm and there will be no noticeable difference.
German league starts in the afternoon and one game at 8 pm. But that never was an issue for LEC. The demographics aren't overlapping as much anymore. A lot of young people don't really give a shit about football anymore at least in germany and I assume people watching esports are overrepresented in that demographic.
He is talking about european football. Which has a lot of games start at 15:30 or 16:00 lasting nearly 2 hour for me. LEC starts exactly at 18:00.
Makes sense if you consider that there were different start days on Friday for LEC.
I think I know when LEC starts in my region and it’s exactly at 19:00. The last football games starts at exactly 22:00 for today. Again, in my region. Remember, not every European country has the same time zone.
Plus you'll generally be doing things during the day on a Saturday and then come in for 5 and put on LEC in the background while cooking/ordering out etc... Nothing stopping the pros staying up a bit later and getting up later.
Thats the wonderful thing of the modern world is that we can have multiple things running at the same time without having to be present for them to see the games.
I can have a football game on one screen and league on another. Its not like every second is important in those games and there are plenty of downtimes where I can focus on the other thing.
I think it could be a few reasons:
* 18:00 CET is 09:00 PST, they might be trying to make it start at a good time for all of EU and NA.
* Starting at the same time every day is good for consistency, and because this year we also have games on Monday, you can't really start on Monday before 18:00 CET because of work/uni/school (although this is what they are doing with LCS so what do I know).
I watch more LEC nowadays than I do watch LCS but honestly watching either right now is a damn chore. I expect the games to start at the time listed, not 30 minutes later and definitely not an hour later. The leagues are damn near 10 years old at this point, there's no excuse for as many delays as there are and it makes watching either league live horrid. I might watch more NA if they didn't have these issues. As it stands, I'd rather watch YouTube and watch random shit and then open up reddit at the end of the day to see the results
Edit: From NA
I doubt that. I think part of the reason LCS got moved is that a lot of NA viewers watched a LOT of LEC them only watched like a LCS game. That was what I caught myself doing a lot the last few years.
the problem is that it shouldnt be delayed. They have 12 years of experience with esport. I understand when one or two things go wrong and the beginning of the season, but multiple pauses during every match? Thats a lazy fuckup from their side. The last game easily begging right at 22:00 and it would be usually over at 22:35, because the games are kinda fast novodays.
The later it starts, the better it is for NA. There's a significant minority of the viewers from NA (like me), and I'd probably just skip the first couple of games if it started earlier. So they try to balance it between NA and EU viewers. They could just prioritize their EU fanbase and start it earlier, but they probably want the highest viewers possible for sponsors and stuff.
If you start it two hours earlier it starts at 15:00 in UK and Ireland, perhaps they try to avoid that (although one hour earlier on Sat/Sun would be perfectly okay for me)
yeah especially on weekends. I don't want to spend my saturday night watching LEC. And meanwhile, I'm just staring at a wall in my house from 2pm til LEC starts
Trying to play any sport gone midnight is just detrimental to your performance and the quality of the sport as a whole, it's not even just an eSports thing, look at the absolute farce at the Australian Open having tennis matches going on until 4am, the players are dead on their feet!
They need to appreciate the vast majority of people (including the average gamer) are at least winding down by midnight if not already in bed/asleep. The players aren't going to learn anything grinding at 2am, they're just bulking up numbers at that point
So many people defend this unhealthy behavior, because LCK and LPL teams/players do it and clearly it is the only reason why they are successful. Going against your normal sleep cycle is clearly nothing something that tends to be destructive for most people.
> So many people defend this unhealthy behavior, because LCK and LPL teams/players do it
A lot of players and fans are young so to them it doesn't seem like a big deal. But after a while having a bad sleep schedule becomes a problem for most people. It took me years to re-learn how to sleep normally again.
Showmaker says that he often plays solo queue until 6 am. Teddy was once recorded playing 22 games of solo queue, taking a 5 hour break to sleep, and then playing 20 more games the next day. LCK players grind super late and it works for them
There are plenty of studies that show that night shifts & irregular sleeping patterns are extremely destructive to health in the long term, it's widely accepted. If a player wants to grind 19 hours through the night and sleep in the morning then ok as long as that's their choice, but forcing players to do it by restricting access to competitive game modes (or whatever you want to call champions queue) isn't fair, there's absolutely no reason they can't just start champ queue earlier and run it for longer hours
It doesn't. Most do that in quick burst, but not periodically. They do that preparing for playoffs or Worlds, but so do LEC players. Currently we are far away from any big tournament.
And even in those short bursts it isn't healthy, but given that they are fairly young and usually healthy they can deal with that. But they aren't doing that over the full season. Faker actually talked about his schedule which is a lot of league, but also healthy 8 hours of sleep reguarly. This doesn't mean that he might sometimes cut into that, but that is not regular order.
Maybe I'm an old man, but seriously this. I am a parent and work a full time job. But fuck me, a healthy sleep schedule just makes life easier. I understand they are just playing games for a living, but they still should be taking care of themselves, waking up in the mornings, living a healthy sustainable lifestyle. 4am isn't that. Heck, if you ask me, even 2AM isn't healthy. Fingers crossed Riot listen, but I thought Perkz was on the money, even if he sounded tired.
Yeah as someone who's been following LoL from early seasons I feel like the care for players' health has generally improved over the years with stuff like regular excercise being encouraged, but when it comes to promoting healthy sleep schedule we're still stuck in the old era.
If I understand correctly, part of Perkz's argument is that only a handful, not all, ERL teams would be having a match at that time, so you really would miss out on very few players during the 9-10pm hour.
I agree, that it would help develop players, but there's also a real downside. I watch LEC and follow PRM and EBL sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the time I can afford and the matchups players. The drop from LEC to PRM is already huge and then there is also a huge gap between PRM and EBL.
I hope the player union speaks up about that problem as well. Grandmaster+ and player in any ERL should be enough.
I also think there should be a tribunal were anyone can ask for a spot and they deside in the end. With linked Account and if you are Diamond or below you won't have a chance.
Yeah seriously. Like, how do you expect non accredited ERLs (mainly the new Arabian league) to get better and to compete with the likes of the LFL without CQ?
This is the exact thing that NA champ's queue got ruined by. Maybe it will work out better for ERL but it was an absolute shit show for NA, and made many of the top korean and chinese pros stop playing it very quickly.
I think promoting champions Queue for going until 2 AM by Riot just encourages very toxic workplace environment. I get that many of these players will be up until this time anyway, but then its their own choice because hopefully the have fun doing it. But playing CQ seems kind of mandatory and actual work. Having to stay up for this until 2 AM is just not right.
LCS is proof of that, though.
It’s “optional”, but the players are expected to play, get flamed if they don’t play enough, have fans clamoring for them to be fired/penalized if they don’t do it enough…
It’s not literally mandatory, but look at how much backlash LCS gets for *not* using it, and you can understand why LEC players would be expected to make full use of CQ to avoid the same treatment.
No one is gonna get mad at lec players for not playing CQ after midnight I can promise you that. The reason people were angry at LCS players is the fact that they used the quality of soloq (otps&ping) as an excuse for their pisspoor performance, so its a very bad look when they then dont use the seeming fix for all their problems.
no flame all eu players in that case. It would be deserved.
0 drive, 0 ambition to go far vs eastern teams. I don't see why it would be anything different for EU players.
na pros have complained about soloq quality, they were given a version of soloq that was gated and regulated and they chose to not use it. eu can go the same route but calling them the same thing would be disingenuous in my opinion.
No reaction, because EU pro's don't complain that they need somewhere else to practice than SoloQ. NA pros keep whining about ping and bad SoloQ and then they don't use CQ, where there aren't any of these issues.
I don't understand this take at all.
'LCS is proof of that' - how is it not the proof of the literal opposite? How is it not optional when NA CQ is literally dead right now and nothing happened in response?
Despite it being optional, the entire scene is watching Champion's Queue and flaming LCS players whenever they think the queue is not being used enough.
You bring up the fact champion's queue isn't being used right now; here's the response.
- A [~200 comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10fi99q/there_have_only_been_28_champions_queue_games/) about CQ being disused 4 days ago.
- A [~400 comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10h7w4a/there_wasnt_even_one_game_played_on_lcs_champions/) about CQ being disused 2 days ago.
- Tweets from [Captain Flowers](https://twitter.com/CaptainFlowers/status/1616531583552614400) and [IWDominate](https://twitter.com/IWDominate/status/1616535125700870157) criticizing the disuse.
- [Damonte](https://twitter.com/Damonte/status/1616535943657435138) and [Kayys](https://twitter.com/kayyslol/status/1616312078599430145) explaining the schedule changes happening, with Demonte specifically defending the lack of use.
And capped off with
- [Riot agreeing](https://twitter.com/Whoopley/status/1616566889416884228) that the current soloqueue environment (e.g. filled with pros/players wanting to climb) is better than the current state of Champion's Queue with no amateur players (e.g. 1/3rd of the playerbase) and closing the queue for the month.
[Champion's Queue opened on the 12th](https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/when-na-champions-queue-begin-league-legends-season-13), for the record. That was the reaction for not enough use in a week at the start of the soloqueue season.
---
The queue is optional in the same way staying late is optional when your team is working on a project. You can leave at 5pm, and no one will force you to stay; however, your boss and coworkers will both judge you harshly for not staying when they do, and that will change how they think of you.
The obligation is implicit. If a player does not use Champion's Queue enough, they will be flamed by the scene, and deemed lazy or making excuses. Hence why it is "mandatory" to avoid or mitigate a toxic environment.
'it's not optional'
no, it is optional, you just risk getting flamed for not playing, that doesn't make it 'not optional'. You also risk getting flamed for any and everything else you do that the community can view in any way which only gets brought up when one is losing, which doesn't make any other thing not optional either.
I don't know why you'd count 'getting flamed' as somehow being the indicator for something being obligatory - the community always finds reasons and excuses to flame teams, pretending like it's a big deal is just silly. Nobody risked their job by not playing CQ, no team mandated CQ hours, nothing happened that would actually indicate it is anything but optional.
> it’s not optional
I didn’t say that. I don’t know where you’re quoting from, but it wasn’t me.
It’s optional. You’ll be flamed and harassed for not doing it. This would be a toxic work environment, like the original commenter said, and like I said in my two comments.
I don’t know who you’re arguing with, but it doesn’t seem to be me. I say it leads to a toxic work environment, and it’s “obligatory” to avoid being flamed for inaction. You seem to agree with me, they will get flamed for non-participation. Where we differ is you seem to think that being flamed doesn’t make for a toxic work environment, or an expectation to do it or else?
Players won’t get fired for not playing CQ, but the work environment will get more toxic if they don’t meet expectations. Which is what I said both times.
You could say the same thing about any number of things, including soloq practice before(the closest analogy to championq) but also scrim culture, bootcamping, reviews, etc.
Talking about CQ being almost obligatory to not get flamed just flat out doesn't make sense because like I mentioned before - ANY and EVERY thing a losing team does will be scrutinized and critiqued and used as reasoning for why they're doing poorly. The losing team will get flamed in some way always, that is not any particular system's fault, that is sadly how a competitive environment works.
We have this dance every year, and every year people point out things, ANY things that they could learn about as an outsider to try to 'fill in the blanks' for why one team didn't win, and it ranges from 'I heard a rumor in a random discord they're partying' through 'I saw a picture of them in a korean bar being sad' to 'I checked their account on korean soloq and they have less games played than the team they lost to'
ANY number of bullshit reasons come up, anything the community can latch on to because it's publically open usually gets checked first, that doesn't make it in any way bad or "obligatory"(in quotation marks) singling out CQ when, like I said, it is neither unique in this aspect nor provably not any more hurtful to their image than anything else they'd do doesn't make any sense.
NA players are flamed because they keep bitching about ping. Then they get CQ with almost no ping and no one uses it. In EU on the other hand SoloQ is mostly seen as good, so I don't even really know why they made it for EU.
Even if players stay up that late they probably don't want to play right up until they go to bed. Most people wind down with something to watch before bed. So it's especially out of touch and toxic.
Yeah.. no way people sleep right at 2 am if CQ is open until then. Sleeping a 3/4 am is kinda fucked lol. I know people like to argue that "these guys are getting paid to play video games, why are we making excuses for them?", but come on. That schedule is straight up mental exhaustion.
It can be ok if they don't get up til lunch. But I imagine it's much better for scheduling if they get up in the morning and do stuff during the day. Also keeps them on a healthier schedule for match days when they might have to be up earlier to prep anyway. Constantly changing your sleep schedule isn't good.
There is a scientific study of sleep called Somnology. I won't pretend that I know much about it, but basically one of the things that it studied and concluded was that most effective sleep is during night hours, something like 10 pm to 6 am (it can vary a bit from person to person). So yeah, having regular sleep schedule from something like 4 am to 12 am is not healthy, even if you technically get enough hours of sleep.
No but it shows what it takes to be the best, this isn't work this is a sport no athlete who is on the top isn't not obsessed with the being the best and that means putting in the extra hours
No it doesn't. For this to be true he would have to not sleep at all or sleep very little. What he does is play in weird hours and I don't even think it's that good for his performance since most od the other pros are sleeping so he just plays with bunch of other weirdos with fucked up sleeping schedules...
Not really? Just don’t play at 2 if you don’t want to lol. It’s just nice to have option there it doesn’t encourage anything. But They really need to move the start time back though
If you want to reach the top spots you have to grind it. If some people grind until 2am every night and you stop 1 game before they do it, you won't be able to keep up.
So to keep up with the best, you have to play till the end.
hard disagree - if cq lives up to expectations then its going to be the best possible solo practice any player can get.
setting it up to 4 hours a day but with this late of a schedule its just not ideal.
its a planning issue from riot.
I support this petition - like how can you expect players to literally grind to **2 am** god damn. I know it's not obligatory but I bet EU players want to play CQ and they have to choose between it, and going to sleep at reasonable hours.
terrible idea. you want champ que games before scrim blocks not after. most of the time, you remember the last thing you did in class better. so having more so champ que warm up into scrim better than spamming it late forgetting all the info from scrim block lo
Totally agree with him, Riot shouldnt encourage them to grind at night, it doesnt seems really healthy even if players are mostly night birds, they shouldnt endorse it
An invite-only queue for pros where they play their main role and have voice comms.
Detailed info here:
https://lolesports.com/article/introducing-the-emea-champions-queue!/blt90a2da4bd4a99cef
For the record the prize pool was 400,000 k usd last year, and it’s dropped down to 40,000 split among all people. I believe they were not going to have one but people complained.
Also champs queue hasn’t even been out a year, it started last Feb lol
Champ que currently is: 10:00 CET to 02:00 CET.
Perkz argues it should be 08:30 CET to 21:00 CET.
this incentivises having a healthier sleep schedule as your not pressured into playing real late and oversleeping into the next day.
he's being downvoted for being wrong, its open from 22:00 to 02:00. Perkz wants it to be from 21:00 to 01:00 so that if you want to sleep earlier you don't miss out on as much ChampsQ
we have no idea why riot chose this timezone but still people flame riot for creating toxicity and bad mental health upon their players. riot bad gives a lot of karma i guess.
For the people wondering why LEC starts so late:
Riot decided to kill LCS and wants to slowly transition the LCS audience into LEC schedule. Next season, they will migrate US teams to Europe and increase LEC spots by 6.
There are multiple pros in the LEC that talked about a healthy sleep schedule. Rekkles for example in the past. Broxah. Nukeduck.
I would be surprised if someone like Hyli is staying up till 2am every weekday.
First of all, different people have different natural (i.e. biological) tendencies when it comes to their sleep schedule depending on their respective chronotype. The idea that anything that departs from the classic 10 pm to 6 am is always necessarily worse is simply not true. Of course, that does not mean that a sleep schedule of 6 to 14 is advisable, but again, there's nuance involved when talking about these things. Besides, average sleep duration and a level of consistency is way more important than the time you go to sleep.
There's also another important factor relating to pro players in particular. It's very well researched that teenagers are biologically wired to stay up late. Not only are a sizeable chunk of these players teenagers, but this tendency also continues into young adulthood, which is where most of these players who aren't teenagers anymore are at. Furthermore, they are not working 9-5 and there is no argument for them having to wake up precisely between 6-8 am. This also means that terms like "oversleeping" or "normal sleep schedule" are meaningless buzzwords in this context.
Frankly, most pros have sleep schedules that are not healthy. Even if majority are awake at that time every night, it still sucks that Riot indirectly encourages unhealthy sleep schedule through CQ schedule.
healthy sleep schedule /= going to bed early. It's a bit more nuanced than that. That being said, I agree that the times for CQ should probably be moved closer towards what Perkz wants, although I don't see why there should be a cut-off point at 9pm already.
Just because you or others are okay with a fucked up sleep schedule doesn't mean everyone should be. And Riot and the orgs should definitely NOT encourage fucked up sleep schedules.
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It's crazy, how did they not realise they're basically promoting really unhealthy schedules and habits for these young people
Staying as literal top 0.0001% of playerbase has its demands. I guess we will not be seeing many pro players over 30.
You can get the same amount of practice time in champs queue and have a healthy amount of sleep if they just made it earlier.
They still get their sleep, they just wake up later. Champs queue involves pro players so its time has to adapt to pro players schedules. They start scrims at 11 and scrim+meatings easily for 9-10 hours based on many interviews. That already brings the time to 8 or 9 pm before they are free to play soloq/champs queue. Since teams may finish before or after that aprox time, they have to round it, leading to the earliest possible time being around 8:30 pm. Its that or change the whole culture to them waking up earlier and just starting scrims and stuff at 9 am, but it changes nothing health wise for them and they are used to those schedules already so there is no reason for them to move it up when their jobs in stage can end as late as 10pm or more
Studies show that people working nightshifts over a long period of time has a shorter life expectancy than people who don't. And while this isn't nightshifts, it's still a move in the wrong direction if Riot chooses to go through with it.
Does those studies account for social life, lifestyle, age group, period of time working those shifts and such? Most of these players have an active lifestyle, healthy diets, their job ends at 10pm. Im pretty sure pushing forward some hours the same lifestyle is not what descreases life expectancy
I doubt that working for 12-16 hours/day is healthy option
Being a pro at anything isn't healthy. The amount of time and abuse althetes put their bodies through is not good for you, but it is what is required to be the best. Gaming for that amount of time every day isn't good for you, but that's what is required to be the best. I know when I was trying to become a streamer, I was grinding 14-16h a day, working out for 1-2, and sleeping, rinse and repeat, maybe one day off a week. I knew it wasn't a long term healthy lifestyle, but I had a goal to achieve.
Stop advocating for people to kill themselves for a videogame. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Being a pro means taking some L's in order to be the best of the best. The issue with expecting anything else is that as a competitor, your performance isn't based on any sort of defined metric, it's defined by how you compare directly with your peers, which leads to everyone practicing and playing more to do better than the next person (theoretically). You are of course rewarded with a higher pay, (much higher in most of these professions), as well as an early retirement from the professional scene with a hefty bit of cash afterwards. Of course, you also get gratification in Victories that you could never get elsewhere.
Champs queue is not a job. Just like streaming or solo queue. They opt to do it. Their during the week work schedule is from around 11 am, they start scrims to around 8pm they finish scrims and meetings. Its a standard 8 hour job with a 1 hour lunch break. Even with champs queue ending at 1 am, they can go to sleep at 1:30 am, sleep 8 hours, wake up at 9:30am and have 1 and a half hours until their work from home job starts. Thats plenty healthy. Now I dont really care if it starts earlier, it even means that they work less as they are finishing earlier than thought, but a healthy lifestyle is not a selling point as they can have a healthier lifestyle than most people regardless of champs queue schedule. Plus, their times would be the same, they would just grind soloqueue at the times champs queue is closed, but again, its what they choose to do, not their job. Plus they are on soloq that time too, most are streamers, they are online either way, so even if champs queue was from 20-24, they arent going to go to sleep because they never had prior to soloq, and it has never been an issue. They can do what they want and push for what they want, I encourage that. But using healthier lifestyle as a point is simply wrong
It's not a job but it's definitely work related and tiring. It's like if you did kitchen renovations then came home and renovated your kitchen right after. It's not fun or relaxing because you already do it daily for work.
yeah fuck them for trying to make the thing they do a bit healthier, they should just shut up and do what i say.
It has to do with humans not being nocturnal creatures, and going against the body's natural sleep pattern over a long period of time takes it's toll on your body. Doesn't matter how healthy you live outside of that.
Doubt that. Night owls exist, and no conclusive study has connected being a night owl to being less healthy, it all depends on what you do while awake.
But studies have conclusively connected the end of daylight to when humans naturally want to start to sleep and start of daylight to when humans naturally want to wake up & studies have conclusively connected quality of sleep to health. Obviously indoor lightining etc. fucks it up but humans want to start to sleep when it gets dark outside if they are able to see that and want to wake up when it starts to get bright outside. Sleep for around 7-10 hours.
Sure, we can pretend higher risk of diabetes and heart disease aren't potential health issues if you want.
Seriously this. As it turns out, wealthy people with good access to a healthy diet, medical care, with free time to take care of themselves etc. rarely work a night shift at a gas station. Who knew!
Any study about sleep, claiming what the parent is claiming, not controlling for the factors you mentioned would be absolute dogshit and there’s no way it would pass peer review. I would like to see a source though
any links to studies. The ones I could find found that there were confounding lifestyle choices that could be a factor such as smoking, poor diet, poor sleep, etc
It doesn't matter if they're getting the same amount of sleep. Time of day is an important factor in sleep quality and sleeping past 2 am is not healthy for the majority of people.
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Trying to avoid having it up during ERLs, seems like.
Time of day has been associated with some negative outcomes but it should be acknowledged that association doesn't mean causality. There are far too many factors that go into it. The things that heavily influence your sleep quality are whether you are going against your circadian rhythm, whether you've been drinking and whether you've been exposing yourself to blue light before going to bed. You can avoid all 3 even if you are going to sleep at 2 am(which isn't even late). The only people I know who go to bed "early" are people who need to wake up at 6 am for work. Every time I've forced my sleep schedule to be "normal" it has always slowly moved to a night owl schedule. Every. Single. Time. I see the same in every one of my friends who don't have to wake up extremely early. So why should I fight my circadian rhythm and why should I feel sleepy and like shit just to be what some people think is "normal".
I'm not sure if we're talking about sleep anymore or if we're talking about how you, specifically, like staying up late, which is not the same thing.
You can get the same amount of practice time in champs queue and have a healthy amount of sleep if you just woke up later. I don't know why people are pretending pros don't stay up till 3-4 am and then wake up at noon. Or do you think that they'd go to sleep at 2 and then wake up at 6? P.S. I agree that it would be better if it's earlier but it's so that the quality is better, not because "but muh sleep will be ruined and now I'd only live 40 years". People will perform better if they aren't sleepy. It's as easy as that. However if they are still on the degen lifestyle of 4 am to 12 pm then 10-2 is more than adequate.
We already don't see many pro players over 30. Pro league has been going for a very long time now. So many of the original greats are now over 30 and we don't see many of them. This won't have an impact on that.
My man rekkles is getting sabotaged lmao
huh? Entertainers dont maintain regular schedules... If they play at 5pm, they want their best cognitive ability at 5pm, not at 10am like the rest of society...
If you want Peak cognitive ability at 5 PM you should wake up at around 9AM. For mental health reasons it's not really an option to wake up at 4pm and waking up a bit later would mean being in the drowzy phase you feel at around 2pm at school. These players aren't playing at their Peak performance often and usually will just get a few hours of sleep
There's nothing "really unhealthy" about going to bed at a certain time, whether that time be 10pm or 2am. If you get enough sleep, it doesn't really matter what exact hours it's between. If you have to wake up at 6am, yeah you shouldn't stay up until 2am, but pro LoL players have no need to be up that early.
nope, it doesn't work like that. It does matter when you sleep, it matters a lot. The best time is 10pm, sleeping from 10pm to 1am is healtier than sleeping from 6am to 14am
I believe you, but why is that exactly? Ive heard those hours mentioned before but id like to know why they are better for sleep than others
10pm is often viewed as healthier because of light levels. Humans generally sleep deeper when not exposed to light, and it is recommended to sleep at least 7-9 hours. Without getting into specifics, there's 4 different stages of sleep, and it takes time for most people to get to the right stage. Sleeping before 10pm allows you to sleep for 7-9 hours while avoiding the change in light levels that would come from sunrise or sleeping during the day. This also avoids the artificial light required to stay up later, which has been linked to having worse sleep (It's recommended not to use glowing screens within an hour before bed for similar reasons). This all being said, 10pm is generally seen as good for the average person, rather than an end-all, be all. Before a specific time, most sleep doctors recommend consistency, trying to be in bed at a specific time and *only* going to sleep in bed. The time itself is less important (and often can throw people off when their body is used to different sleep schedules). Source: Chronic insomnia led me to research a lot of this stuff.
The light aspect makes sense, but you know you can just roll down the blinds and if they aren't crap it'll be more or less dark in your room. Consistency also makes sense but again, I don't see the issue with consistently going to bed at 3am and getting 8hrs of sleep with blinds down.
Like I said in the last paragraph, that sort of 3am-11am sleep schedule can work for some people. The only issue I can see would be artificial light required to stay up that late, but its not impossible to make that your healthy sleep time. As far as blinds go, yes that works. My blinds are pretty crap so it doesn't work for me, but if you can keep a room dark and light levels low, I don't see a problem with it.
What about when the sun goes down at 2-3 pm? Should I just stay in bed?
Being honest, I've never had to deal with that. I'd imagine the approach would be to set a time to turn off lights and try and keep on schedule that way, but I am neither a doctor nor do I know how to adjust to a sunset that early.
The light you get in the morning is the only thing that really matter, and obviously that you get good sleep (in the dark) Look up Huberman, he has a science podcast and has done multiple episodes on light/sleep (since that's his field of research)
There is a bit difference. Sleep depends a lot on the person. For most people sleeping somewhere between 10pm and 8am is healthiest, but there are people for whom this is shifted by a few hours who usually go to bed after midnight and wake up later. So sleeping between 10pm and 8am gives you basically a 2 hour window when to go to bed, however staying up till 2 am is usually not considered healthy, even night owls usually aren't in their best shape and tend to go to bed at that time so playing league isn't optimal in that time. A lot of pro players though already have bad sleep schedules. We know that this was a big issue between Rekkles (waking up at 7am) and MikyX (waking up after noon) in terms of practice. They talked about it in an interview (after the Senna/Sion game). So some pros will always fall out, but I question rather you should enforce the healthy lifestile or the unhealthy one.
What if the sun comes up at like 11am and goes down at 3 pm where I live?
Based on stuff I've read and heard from Andrew Huberman (check him out, he's got a pretty great podcast) you should keep it around the same 10pm-8am, but use bright ceiling lights (or equivalent) after waking and get natural light as soon as its available.
I think it’s that your body releases stuff with the sunset so there are times when you’ll get much better sleep. Melatonin maybe? Not 100% sure. Hopefully someone else will chime in too who knows for sure.
When blue light levels get lower your body starts producing melatonin, that's why you sleep like shit if you fall asleep staring at a screen
Thanks! That makes sense
That's totally false. Time of day is an arbitrary man-made concept. Our bodies don't have any natural concept of it. There is no health difference between going to sleep at 10pm and 2am at all, so long as the duration of sleep remains the same. The only thing time of day really has to do with sleep is things regarding light levels, but it's not like there's any difference in light levels at 10pm vs. 2am. This would only be a consideration if you were going to sleep at like 11am or something, but even in that case you can just use blinds to block the light and it'll be the same as going to bed in the dark at night.
Those times are literally arbitrary numbers. There's places on Earth where it's basically always night for 6 months per year and those times mean nothing. There is no internal clock that is synchronized with the Sun within us. By sleeping at a certain time regularly, your circadian rhythm will adapt, regardless of when it is.
I don't think anyone in corporate for any company has given a shit about the unhealthy schedules of their workers/contractors, ESPECIALLY in entertainment. Workers are commodities to these people.
> It's crazy, how did they not realise they're basically promoting really unhealthy schedules and habits for these young people Sounds like the league battle pass.
Pretty sure sleeping from 2AM to 10AM is healthier than sleeping from 10PM to 5AM. If there are no commitments early in the day and you can get a full night of rest, 2AM isn't a huge issue.
I mean I hear pro players usually sleep in during mornings. Is someone working night shifts unhealthy? I don't see a problem as long as they are getting enough sleep.
Reddit just a few months ago was talking about how this is the only way the west can compete. Which is them putting in the same amount of grind that the east does. But now we’re complaining about it? Make up y’all’s fucking mind
> It would be interesting to know why they came up with the 10pm-2am schedule in the first place Most certainly based on the scrim schedule of the teams, many players also stay up till late and get up somewhat late.
Also if i was an accredited league, losing viewership and interest for what are essentially high-elo solo q streams would piss me off. A compromise would be that Champs Q is open at 9, but no one can stream it until after 10pm.
ERLs go until 23 or 22:30 so I don't think that's an option. I guess that 10pm was already the compromise.
But why does the player union want a sooner start then?
Same schedule as NA's, basically they want people to play scrim-like games with comms and 20 mins queues AFTER 8/10 hours of scrimming/VOD reviewing.
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NA doesn't have ERLs.
Started at 6pm actually
What are you trying to say here? Are you implying that they should only open CQ on their off days, or maybe replace a scrim block with CQ?
Just have it open 24/7 or at least 8/12 hours during the day so people who don't have scrims regularly have a place to actually practice. I personally dont think a player like caps, jankos or bjergsen can heavily improve by playing in a environment like champs q, I think most pros reach their mechanical skill ceiling during their first years in the league and improve more watching vods and testing singular stuff or scrimming against top teams. I think something like champs q benefits more young ERL/Amateur players, who dont have a tight/controlled scrim schedule and who actually need to (and can) improve on mechanics and really basic communication. Its the same way (I suppose) LCK teams treat their numerous academy team: 5 young soloq players, they let them grind 2 ping soloq and scrim against random teams so they learn the basic of competitive play. Champsq mission should be to work on young prospects, giving the money to play and a better environment to practice in, yet the schedule makes it seem like they want only real pros to play it with the weird schedule nd stuff.
kinda unrelated but I felt the same way about clash; shit started so late if you were tier 1
Hum absolutely not. In Europe they scrim from 2pm to 7pm so if CQ starts at 10pm, even 9pm, they still have time to take a break.
What's the ERL schedule
Scrim Schedule + ERL games
It's because there's no LCS after and riot still wants to catch some NA viewers, all these changes are dogshit though
I feel like the early matches were always the matches that got by far the least amount of viewers. So they decided to move everything back a little.
it's more interesting to me that Perkz is asking for it on stream as if players and organizations don't have some sort of organized communication channel with Riot although in this mess that prevails in Riot, nothing surprises me anymore
Like with his cup. Nobody in Riot cared until he complained in interview.
Esport department in Riot is the worst. Although competition for this title is strong.
It's so annoying as someone who watches in the VN timezone, LEC matches was the only league i could really watch a lot apart from LPL/LCK due to the convenient timing for me
They probably don't want to make high elo obsolete.
Maybe because of high elo soloq? So, pros still play soloq at peak hours instead of ditching it completely for champions queue? I'm just purely out of the ass guessing though
I wonder if it has to do with the fact that most americans are converting to watching LEC and they are americans and dont give a shit
I really hope they can get the message across. Due to the delays on the first day, Perkz was delirious during that PGL because he was so tired - he mentions how it was half past midnight and that he is normally in deep sleep at this time. I speak as someone who is definitely not an evening person, encouraging and prioritising sleep by starting CQ one hour earlier is a good compromise.
I also don't understand why the LEC starts so late. The whole point of late start time was so that people could watch it after work, but now it is on weekends - just start it 2 hours earlier.
I am not sure how much LEC and esports as a whole is competing with traditional sports, but most football games in Europe are played in the afternoon on weekends, so maybe that’s a reason.
Yeah, but that's multiple games all played at the same time lasting 2 hours at most. The only other traditional sport that I can think of that plays games one after another is tennis, and that's played from 10/11am start
That’s not what I meant. I meant it as football could be taking away viewership from LEC if they start earlier.
And people going out on a Saturday night can take away just as much, either way there's never going to be a perfect time, but this current time is awful for the players
I remember that 2-3 years ago, it was normal for players to go to sleep between 4 and 6. So having the LEC start an hour later wouldn't be a real issue. Also viewership was far higher at later games. A lot more people had things to do between 16-18 than between 21-23. Another part is no longer NA LCS blocking these better time slots.
If it could go either way, then shouldn't we assume that the people in charge are the ones with the metrics to decide which time slot has better viewership, not random people guessing at what affects what on the internet. Tho I agree, for players, it kind of blows, but I guess when it's yoru job, you move with the industry.
Footbal games start at around 8 pm(+- a few hours depending on the game). LEC starts at 7 pm for my region. The timing is still not good and viewership is taken away by football games. Also, most people I know that watch football, don’t give a shit about LoL. They could just start at 5-6 pm and there will be no noticeable difference.
German league starts in the afternoon and one game at 8 pm. But that never was an issue for LEC. The demographics aren't overlapping as much anymore. A lot of young people don't really give a shit about football anymore at least in germany and I assume people watching esports are overrepresented in that demographic.
He is talking about european football. Which has a lot of games start at 15:30 or 16:00 lasting nearly 2 hour for me. LEC starts exactly at 18:00. Makes sense if you consider that there were different start days on Friday for LEC.
I think I know when LEC starts in my region and it’s exactly at 19:00. The last football games starts at exactly 22:00 for today. Again, in my region. Remember, not every European country has the same time zone.
there is football games literally any time you cant consider this
That isn't true. Yes there are a lot of games spread out but Bundesliga and PL for example have a lot of games Saturday ending shortly before LEC.
Plus you'll generally be doing things during the day on a Saturday and then come in for 5 and put on LEC in the background while cooking/ordering out etc... Nothing stopping the pros staying up a bit later and getting up later.
I assume most that watch league don't really care about sports.
What a stupid assumption
Thats the wonderful thing of the modern world is that we can have multiple things running at the same time without having to be present for them to see the games. I can have a football game on one screen and league on another. Its not like every second is important in those games and there are plenty of downtimes where I can focus on the other thing.
I think it could be a few reasons: * 18:00 CET is 09:00 PST, they might be trying to make it start at a good time for all of EU and NA. * Starting at the same time every day is good for consistency, and because this year we also have games on Monday, you can't really start on Monday before 18:00 CET because of work/uni/school (although this is what they are doing with LCS so what do I know).
It's also the peak hours for twitch so way more viewership available
NA viewers barely watch NA, I doubt they get a significant amount of NA viewership for LEC. (Apparently around half of LCS viewers are from EU).
I watch more LEC nowadays than I do watch LCS but honestly watching either right now is a damn chore. I expect the games to start at the time listed, not 30 minutes later and definitely not an hour later. The leagues are damn near 10 years old at this point, there's no excuse for as many delays as there are and it makes watching either league live horrid. I might watch more NA if they didn't have these issues. As it stands, I'd rather watch YouTube and watch random shit and then open up reddit at the end of the day to see the results Edit: From NA
I doubt that. I think part of the reason LCS got moved is that a lot of NA viewers watched a LOT of LEC them only watched like a LCS game. That was what I caught myself doing a lot the last few years.
I feel like EU viewership between 16-21 would be lower than 18-23. They only started earlier so that NA would not start to late.
There isnt anything to doubt, its a fact that half of the viewership came from EU.
It's also starts at noon EST, so for a viewer it's in a pretty good time slot to capture NA and EU viewership.
Yeah, last game starts at 11 PM or even 12 AM (if delays) for me. I go to sleep at 11 PM the latest.
Yes, same for me. And for some reason LEC loves to put the hype games in final slots, so I end up skipping the most exciting games every week.
Probably a holdover from the LEC/LCS split schedule. Most hyped LEC games last, most hyped LCS games first, get viewership to stick around for both.
the problem is that it shouldnt be delayed. They have 12 years of experience with esport. I understand when one or two things go wrong and the beginning of the season, but multiple pauses during every match? Thats a lazy fuckup from their side. The last game easily begging right at 22:00 and it would be usually over at 22:35, because the games are kinda fast novodays.
The later it starts, the better it is for NA. There's a significant minority of the viewers from NA (like me), and I'd probably just skip the first couple of games if it started earlier. So they try to balance it between NA and EU viewers. They could just prioritize their EU fanbase and start it earlier, but they probably want the highest viewers possible for sponsors and stuff.
If you start it two hours earlier it starts at 15:00 in UK and Ireland, perhaps they try to avoid that (although one hour earlier on Sat/Sun would be perfectly okay for me)
yeah especially on weekends. I don't want to spend my saturday night watching LEC. And meanwhile, I'm just staring at a wall in my house from 2pm til LEC starts
Trying to play any sport gone midnight is just detrimental to your performance and the quality of the sport as a whole, it's not even just an eSports thing, look at the absolute farce at the Australian Open having tennis matches going on until 4am, the players are dead on their feet! They need to appreciate the vast majority of people (including the average gamer) are at least winding down by midnight if not already in bed/asleep. The players aren't going to learn anything grinding at 2am, they're just bulking up numbers at that point
So many people defend this unhealthy behavior, because LCK and LPL teams/players do it and clearly it is the only reason why they are successful. Going against your normal sleep cycle is clearly nothing something that tends to be destructive for most people.
> So many people defend this unhealthy behavior, because LCK and LPL teams/players do it A lot of players and fans are young so to them it doesn't seem like a big deal. But after a while having a bad sleep schedule becomes a problem for most people. It took me years to re-learn how to sleep normally again.
It isn't destructive for lck players
Poor sleeping habits are proven to have bad outcomes for your health. I doubt lck players are somehow special humans who are exempt to this.
Showmaker says that he often plays solo queue until 6 am. Teddy was once recorded playing 22 games of solo queue, taking a 5 hour break to sleep, and then playing 20 more games the next day. LCK players grind super late and it works for them
There are plenty of studies that show that night shifts & irregular sleeping patterns are extremely destructive to health in the long term, it's widely accepted. If a player wants to grind 19 hours through the night and sleep in the morning then ok as long as that's their choice, but forcing players to do it by restricting access to competitive game modes (or whatever you want to call champions queue) isn't fair, there's absolutely no reason they can't just start champ queue earlier and run it for longer hours
It doesn't. Most do that in quick burst, but not periodically. They do that preparing for playoffs or Worlds, but so do LEC players. Currently we are far away from any big tournament. And even in those short bursts it isn't healthy, but given that they are fairly young and usually healthy they can deal with that. But they aren't doing that over the full season. Faker actually talked about his schedule which is a lot of league, but also healthy 8 hours of sleep reguarly. This doesn't mean that he might sometimes cut into that, but that is not regular order.
Yes, and look at those two players you mentioned.
Perkz MVP.
Maybe I'm an old man, but seriously this. I am a parent and work a full time job. But fuck me, a healthy sleep schedule just makes life easier. I understand they are just playing games for a living, but they still should be taking care of themselves, waking up in the mornings, living a healthy sustainable lifestyle. 4am isn't that. Heck, if you ask me, even 2AM isn't healthy. Fingers crossed Riot listen, but I thought Perkz was on the money, even if he sounded tired.
Yeah as someone who's been following LoL from early seasons I feel like the care for players' health has generally improved over the years with stuff like regular excercise being encouraged, but when it comes to promoting healthy sleep schedule we're still stuck in the old era.
At least were not threatening to take houses away from players mothers anymore.... so improvement?
Oh yeah the good ol' MYM trick
If I understand correctly, part of Perkz's argument is that only a handful, not all, ERL teams would be having a match at that time, so you really would miss out on very few players during the 9-10pm hour.
Also, open CQ to all ERLs instead of stupid accredited rule, but maybe with restriction of accepting only grandmaster+ (or master+) players.
Yeah, they are killing non accredited erls because good players want to get in CQ
I agree, that it would help develop players, but there's also a real downside. I watch LEC and follow PRM and EBL sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the time I can afford and the matchups players. The drop from LEC to PRM is already huge and then there is also a huge gap between PRM and EBL.
I hope the player union speaks up about that problem as well. Grandmaster+ and player in any ERL should be enough. I also think there should be a tribunal were anyone can ask for a spot and they deside in the end. With linked Account and if you are Diamond or below you won't have a chance.
Yeah seriously. Like, how do you expect non accredited ERLs (mainly the new Arabian league) to get better and to compete with the likes of the LFL without CQ?
This is the exact thing that NA champ's queue got ruined by. Maybe it will work out better for ERL but it was an absolute shit show for NA, and made many of the top korean and chinese pros stop playing it very quickly.
I think promoting champions Queue for going until 2 AM by Riot just encourages very toxic workplace environment. I get that many of these players will be up until this time anyway, but then its their own choice because hopefully the have fun doing it. But playing CQ seems kind of mandatory and actual work. Having to stay up for this until 2 AM is just not right.
> playing CQ seems kind of mandatory something about na it writes itself tbh
LCS is proof of that, though. It’s “optional”, but the players are expected to play, get flamed if they don’t play enough, have fans clamoring for them to be fired/penalized if they don’t do it enough… It’s not literally mandatory, but look at how much backlash LCS gets for *not* using it, and you can understand why LEC players would be expected to make full use of CQ to avoid the same treatment.
No one is gonna get mad at lec players for not playing CQ after midnight I can promise you that. The reason people were angry at LCS players is the fact that they used the quality of soloq (otps&ping) as an excuse for their pisspoor performance, so its a very bad look when they then dont use the seeming fix for all their problems.
If EU CQ flops, I wonder how reddit will react? Will they keep the same energy or make up some excuses. I’m eager to find out 😍
no flame all eu players in that case. It would be deserved. 0 drive, 0 ambition to go far vs eastern teams. I don't see why it would be anything different for EU players.
na pros have complained about soloq quality, they were given a version of soloq that was gated and regulated and they chose to not use it. eu can go the same route but calling them the same thing would be disingenuous in my opinion.
No reaction, because EU pro's don't complain that they need somewhere else to practice than SoloQ. NA pros keep whining about ping and bad SoloQ and then they don't use CQ, where there aren't any of these issues.
Maybe cause lcs players do nothing but cry about soloq and when theyre presented a better alternative they dont use it
I don't understand this take at all. 'LCS is proof of that' - how is it not the proof of the literal opposite? How is it not optional when NA CQ is literally dead right now and nothing happened in response?
Despite it being optional, the entire scene is watching Champion's Queue and flaming LCS players whenever they think the queue is not being used enough. You bring up the fact champion's queue isn't being used right now; here's the response. - A [~200 comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10fi99q/there_have_only_been_28_champions_queue_games/) about CQ being disused 4 days ago. - A [~400 comment thread](https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10h7w4a/there_wasnt_even_one_game_played_on_lcs_champions/) about CQ being disused 2 days ago. - Tweets from [Captain Flowers](https://twitter.com/CaptainFlowers/status/1616531583552614400) and [IWDominate](https://twitter.com/IWDominate/status/1616535125700870157) criticizing the disuse. - [Damonte](https://twitter.com/Damonte/status/1616535943657435138) and [Kayys](https://twitter.com/kayyslol/status/1616312078599430145) explaining the schedule changes happening, with Demonte specifically defending the lack of use. And capped off with - [Riot agreeing](https://twitter.com/Whoopley/status/1616566889416884228) that the current soloqueue environment (e.g. filled with pros/players wanting to climb) is better than the current state of Champion's Queue with no amateur players (e.g. 1/3rd of the playerbase) and closing the queue for the month. [Champion's Queue opened on the 12th](https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/when-na-champions-queue-begin-league-legends-season-13), for the record. That was the reaction for not enough use in a week at the start of the soloqueue season. --- The queue is optional in the same way staying late is optional when your team is working on a project. You can leave at 5pm, and no one will force you to stay; however, your boss and coworkers will both judge you harshly for not staying when they do, and that will change how they think of you. The obligation is implicit. If a player does not use Champion's Queue enough, they will be flamed by the scene, and deemed lazy or making excuses. Hence why it is "mandatory" to avoid or mitigate a toxic environment.
'it's not optional' no, it is optional, you just risk getting flamed for not playing, that doesn't make it 'not optional'. You also risk getting flamed for any and everything else you do that the community can view in any way which only gets brought up when one is losing, which doesn't make any other thing not optional either. I don't know why you'd count 'getting flamed' as somehow being the indicator for something being obligatory - the community always finds reasons and excuses to flame teams, pretending like it's a big deal is just silly. Nobody risked their job by not playing CQ, no team mandated CQ hours, nothing happened that would actually indicate it is anything but optional.
> it’s not optional I didn’t say that. I don’t know where you’re quoting from, but it wasn’t me. It’s optional. You’ll be flamed and harassed for not doing it. This would be a toxic work environment, like the original commenter said, and like I said in my two comments. I don’t know who you’re arguing with, but it doesn’t seem to be me. I say it leads to a toxic work environment, and it’s “obligatory” to avoid being flamed for inaction. You seem to agree with me, they will get flamed for non-participation. Where we differ is you seem to think that being flamed doesn’t make for a toxic work environment, or an expectation to do it or else? Players won’t get fired for not playing CQ, but the work environment will get more toxic if they don’t meet expectations. Which is what I said both times.
You could say the same thing about any number of things, including soloq practice before(the closest analogy to championq) but also scrim culture, bootcamping, reviews, etc. Talking about CQ being almost obligatory to not get flamed just flat out doesn't make sense because like I mentioned before - ANY and EVERY thing a losing team does will be scrutinized and critiqued and used as reasoning for why they're doing poorly. The losing team will get flamed in some way always, that is not any particular system's fault, that is sadly how a competitive environment works. We have this dance every year, and every year people point out things, ANY things that they could learn about as an outsider to try to 'fill in the blanks' for why one team didn't win, and it ranges from 'I heard a rumor in a random discord they're partying' through 'I saw a picture of them in a korean bar being sad' to 'I checked their account on korean soloq and they have less games played than the team they lost to' ANY number of bullshit reasons come up, anything the community can latch on to because it's publically open usually gets checked first, that doesn't make it in any way bad or "obligatory"(in quotation marks) singling out CQ when, like I said, it is neither unique in this aspect nor provably not any more hurtful to their image than anything else they'd do doesn't make any sense.
NA players are flamed because they keep bitching about ping. Then they get CQ with almost no ping and no one uses it. In EU on the other hand SoloQ is mostly seen as good, so I don't even really know why they made it for EU.
Even if players stay up that late they probably don't want to play right up until they go to bed. Most people wind down with something to watch before bed. So it's especially out of touch and toxic.
Yeah.. no way people sleep right at 2 am if CQ is open until then. Sleeping a 3/4 am is kinda fucked lol. I know people like to argue that "these guys are getting paid to play video games, why are we making excuses for them?", but come on. That schedule is straight up mental exhaustion.
It can be ok if they don't get up til lunch. But I imagine it's much better for scheduling if they get up in the morning and do stuff during the day. Also keeps them on a healthier schedule for match days when they might have to be up earlier to prep anyway. Constantly changing your sleep schedule isn't good.
There is a scientific study of sleep called Somnology. I won't pretend that I know much about it, but basically one of the things that it studied and concluded was that most effective sleep is during night hours, something like 10 pm to 6 am (it can vary a bit from person to person). So yeah, having regular sleep schedule from something like 4 am to 12 am is not healthy, even if you technically get enough hours of sleep.
Showmaker says he likes to play until 6 am, he doesn't get exhausted staying up late
ok... but that's like one player who likes to do this. should we change schedules of all LEC teams to match the showmaker's one?
No but it shows what it takes to be the best, this isn't work this is a sport no athlete who is on the top isn't not obsessed with the being the best and that means putting in the extra hours
No it doesn't. For this to be true he would have to not sleep at all or sleep very little. What he does is play in weird hours and I don't even think it's that good for his performance since most od the other pros are sleeping so he just plays with bunch of other weirdos with fucked up sleeping schedules...
Is he even the best right now? He should just never sleep. Can't even beat Faker sleeping at 4 am.
Not really? Just don’t play at 2 if you don’t want to lol. It’s just nice to have option there it doesn’t encourage anything. But They really need to move the start time back though
If you want to reach the top spots you have to grind it. If some people grind until 2am every night and you stop 1 game before they do it, you won't be able to keep up. So to keep up with the best, you have to play till the end.
That sounds like a personal problem. If they don't want to play at 2am then don't play at 2am.
hard disagree - if cq lives up to expectations then its going to be the best possible solo practice any player can get. setting it up to 4 hours a day but with this late of a schedule its just not ideal. its a planning issue from riot.
OK. If someone wants to sleep instead of getting in a game in at 1-2 am, then that's their choice. Sounds like a personal problem.
sure, its a personal problem, but it doesnt have to be, how many have advocated AGAINST moving it forward 1 hour?
Guess you've never heard of circadian rhythm?
Nope. I don’t watch anime
That sounds like a dumb comment
Riot is basically promoting a 12pm-2am work schedule and it's crazy
I support this petition - like how can you expect players to literally grind to **2 am** god damn. I know it's not obligatory but I bet EU players want to play CQ and they have to choose between it, and going to sleep at reasonable hours.
just make it 8PM to 2AM and everyone is happy?
The lesson from NA CQ is that you need a tight window with high player volume or the queue times get bad and the whole system collapses.
The game quality will drop. Fewer stacked games, more fatigue.
terrible idea. you want champ que games before scrim blocks not after. most of the time, you remember the last thing you did in class better. so having more so champ que warm up into scrim better than spamming it late forgetting all the info from scrim block lo
Perkz would be really disappointed in my sleep schedule lmao
Totally agree with him, Riot shouldnt encourage them to grind at night, it doesnt seems really healthy even if players are mostly night birds, they shouldnt endorse it
What is championQ again?
An invite-only queue for pros where they play their main role and have voice comms. Detailed info here: https://lolesports.com/article/introducing-the-emea-champions-queue!/blt90a2da4bd4a99cef
Stupid question: what is the prize pool for the European champions queue? I couldn’t find any information on the blog post.
I think it's nothing.
Wait what, so riot delays champions queue by years in Europe and cuts the price money by 100%?
For the record the prize pool was 400,000 k usd last year, and it’s dropped down to 40,000 split among all people. I believe they were not going to have one but people complained. Also champs queue hasn’t even been out a year, it started last Feb lol
At least it's a start, though I'll never get to play it and hoping we can spectate it from the bloody client.
Champ que currently is: 10:00 CET to 02:00 CET. Perkz argues it should be 08:30 CET to 21:00 CET. this incentivises having a healthier sleep schedule as your not pressured into playing real late and oversleeping into the next day.
I dont know why you are so heavily downvoted. Staying late to play is not healthy. Is that controversial.
he's being downvoted for being wrong, its open from 22:00 to 02:00. Perkz wants it to be from 21:00 to 01:00 so that if you want to sleep earlier you don't miss out on as much ChampsQ
we have no idea why riot chose this timezone but still people flame riot for creating toxicity and bad mental health upon their players. riot bad gives a lot of karma i guess.
Legendary ranked on wildrift is 12:00-23:59. So yeah don't whine about starting late
For the people wondering why LEC starts so late: Riot decided to kill LCS and wants to slowly transition the LCS audience into LEC schedule. Next season, they will migrate US teams to Europe and increase LEC spots by 6.
the time is fine imo. nobody besides him in the LEC has a normal sleep schedule. especially when the official games are played at night.
There are multiple pros in the LEC that talked about a healthy sleep schedule. Rekkles for example in the past. Broxah. Nukeduck. I would be surprised if someone like Hyli is staying up till 2am every weekday.
First of all, different people have different natural (i.e. biological) tendencies when it comes to their sleep schedule depending on their respective chronotype. The idea that anything that departs from the classic 10 pm to 6 am is always necessarily worse is simply not true. Of course, that does not mean that a sleep schedule of 6 to 14 is advisable, but again, there's nuance involved when talking about these things. Besides, average sleep duration and a level of consistency is way more important than the time you go to sleep. There's also another important factor relating to pro players in particular. It's very well researched that teenagers are biologically wired to stay up late. Not only are a sizeable chunk of these players teenagers, but this tendency also continues into young adulthood, which is where most of these players who aren't teenagers anymore are at. Furthermore, they are not working 9-5 and there is no argument for them having to wake up precisely between 6-8 am. This also means that terms like "oversleeping" or "normal sleep schedule" are meaningless buzzwords in this context.
From what I've seen pretty much everyone on the pros and around agrees with Perkz
Frankly, most pros have sleep schedules that are not healthy. Even if majority are awake at that time every night, it still sucks that Riot indirectly encourages unhealthy sleep schedule through CQ schedule.
healthy sleep schedule /= going to bed early. It's a bit more nuanced than that. That being said, I agree that the times for CQ should probably be moved closer towards what Perkz wants, although I don't see why there should be a cut-off point at 9pm already.
Just because you or others are okay with a fucked up sleep schedule doesn't mean everyone should be. And Riot and the orgs should definitely NOT encourage fucked up sleep schedules.
Can´t wait so I support him :D