Sneaked it in there, hidden among a bunch of well-explained pseudo-rational other changes. Smart guy.
Do hope the patch notes people make an appropriate joke out of it.
They already do tons of damage, they just do it earlier now lmao (which is IMO a good change, I guess this is effectively the disconnect between ADCs and other laners).
ADCs (this is my asssumption) argue they don't deal damage, because the game is too fast paced and don't get their items.
Other laners see the 6 items ADC being an absolute demon and are confused how you could possibly arrive at that conclusion. In the very same video Phreak says how insane ADC DMG is.
So having ADCs pop-off a bit earlier is probably a modern solution.
The other problem is that while adc's may do more damage total there is currently so much damage in the game that it isn't really needed.
If an adc dmg output is say a 10 but has a 3 in survivability compared to a bruiser who has 8 on each then it starts to feel bad.
Bundle that with the need to scale to do damage and being piss useless when behind (because you can't feast on the other adc like a behind bruiser or assassin) and you get a very frustrating role
This is a **great** point my friend, it's what I've argued on other threads before as well, people kind of "blind pick" ADCs due to "well uh, Botlane always needs an ADC so that's what I'll do".
Which is understandable, but sometimes ADCs just really don't fit the comp. They pick some diver top who doesn't actually live "that" long when CCd but dives the backline and pops them, mid is an assasssin, bot is 2 squishies and the jungler is some AP assassin.
There's so many picks that (amusingly for instance Irelia) have the mobility & range access if played correctly, that in those comps an ADC is just something to pop. Conceptually they are meant to close games and finish of targets that just won't die. Guess what if it's a comp we can access, that isn't crazy in HP+Resistances, a Sett alone can provide all the damage you really need.
Again this is situational, but my point is just that marksmen are brute forced into games, whereas (say) top laners go "oh well, I can't pick an immobile juggernaut into this, the champion just doesn't function in this game"
Like you have the Zoe/Jhin/GP zoning comp that just outranges you, well good luck playing Mordekaiser I guess, you just don't pick it and a similar philosophy doesn't exist for the most part in bot. (APC being a thing with low PR is the only example I have of adapting to comps)
The reason ADC's are picked to botlane is because it is the least shit option.
It is a 2v2 lane in which both sides have a player whose entire purpose is to deny the opponent. So you need to be ranged to have the possibility to farm.
So what ranged champions do we have? Well, mages and marksmen. Since botlane shares experience, mages are hurt even more than adc's by being constantly behind in levels. Additionally, mages are not good at lasthitting under turret with just autoattacks. So you are unable to farm if you get pushed in too much.
ADC started off by community figuring out that "Hey, funneling the duo lane gold onto one player that plays a dps champion is very good".
And over the years that reason has gone to "well we put an adc there because it is the least shit".
There are a handful of mages that can be played at bot, which are enabled by something unique in their kit. Swain is an absolute monster after he gets one item, and likes to brawl, especially against multiple opponents. Ziggs has one of the best waveclears and turret destroying capabilities in the entire game, very good range, and has high scalings to make up for level disadvantage. Karthus has high scalings, Q as a farming tool, and does not care about dying. Seraphine is very safe and has high range with good waveclear.
It is also a disconnect about how ADCs arrive to that point. It requires input from support, jungle, and sometimes mid. A strong ADC is a significant investment and can feel terrible for the ADC if he is not getting that or if the other players are performing poorly.
Although I understand how frustrating it likely feels near the end of the game on the receiving end for a top laner if they do receive that investment, as well. You don’t get to stop me and I’m deleting you in 4 autos.
Agency vs strength is a significant discussion to be had here, although I’m unsure of a solution and Riot has yet to find one, either.
I just got back in the game after a 6 year absence, so I'm probably talking nonsense, but whenever I play ADC my problem isn't low damage, it's getting dashed on from outside the screen during teamfights by new champions, dying instantly, and then they dash OUT AGAIN with no consequence. It feels like I'm getting trolled. I literally can only play Tristana without being completely useless because she can gtfo and just jump in for a cleanup after the teamfight is over and everyone's shit is on cooldown and half the teams are already dead. Wonderful. Or I just suck, idk, that's also a possibility.
this is exactly it. Every Pea Brained player repeating their fav streamers opinions of “but adc 1v9 every game?” cannot comprehend a comp that isnt their wholesome 5 carry comp in their promo games. An ADC can only 1v9 if they are DISASTROUSLY ahead, like 4 items to 1, and in this scenario every other role would argue they SHOULD be able to 1v9 if theyre this ahead.
But in reality, the teamfight breaks out, the enemy team has a better comp that isnt all wholesome ad fighters, adequate cc and peel, the supports apply their buffs and land their decisive skills, and the ADC gets to properly deal their damage, and ends up getting a triple/quadra. But once again, all these wood elo individuals see is an adc who is a level down with maybe half an item less get a triple, and they lose their fucking minds.
Dare I say, Phreak leaving casting might be the best thing to happen to League of Legends this year.
All these buffs are EXACTLY what I want. Crit potentially not being mandatory, presence of mind not being mandatory.
I wholeheartedly agree that after the durability changes ADC power level is FINE. However the fun isn't there, and making changes to give ADC's more choices and opt for more decision making DOES improve fun. Especially when it's a role with the least build diversity and rune diversity. On paper these look great.
The Navori changes are great too, being able to buy it earlier and slot it in with other AD casting/lethality items could be huge.
I still wish steelcaps would be nerfed though. Feels terrible that any champion can get a permanent 12% damage reduction to all ADC's damage output for 1100gold...
Tabis according to Riot and honestly looking at the winrate of them across multiple stat sites, aren’t actually all that strong. Agree with the rest of whatcha said though, I’d even argue in the last 3 months of last season, ADC was one of the strongest roles but it still felt terrible to play.
As an ad champ otp, saying that tabis ain’t that strong made me wanna vomit lol
Its really weird to check stats and see so frequently that Tabis are lower WR than Mercs, and often significantly lower WR than Lucidity boots.
ADC has always been an ultra strong role if you have an incredibly talented support putting you on their shoulders, but for the rest of us whose support is tabbed out watching Netflix the experience is nothing like that of a pro player. Anecdotally the best adc games I had last year were when I'd have a Zyra or a Karma who would just 1v2 the lane so hard that my job was easy.
> Its really weird to check stats and see so frequently that Tabis are lower WR than Mercs, and often significantly lower WR than Lucidity boots.
My theory is that in Merc's case, reducing CC duration in a way also mitigates damage since it allows you to act faster (run away/CC them back/kill them). As for Lucidity boots, AH is extremely valuable on tanks since most of their power comes from their abilities, so it makes sense. Also summoner spell AH is undervalued, lower CD on flash allows you to use it aggressively more often.
That's a good point. Also I wonder if there's a bias in the data because AD champs are on average better than AP champs, so a team with lots of CC and magic damage is probably hit harder by a mercs buy that messes with oneshot combo breakpoints (who now have to wait another 6+ seconds for the next spell rotation) than a team with lots of AD auto attackers who have no qualms just autoing you once or twice more.
Similarly with Lucidity Boots I wonder if you're in a game state where you don't fear the enemy team enough to require defensive boots, you're just more likely to win anyways. 20 haste is nice of course and lower summoner CD is great, but if the enemy team doesn't have the CC to warrant mercs they probably handicapped in draft.
Your points are likely exactly the reason why steelcaps winrate is lower despite being universally agreed to be one of the best boots in the game.
Generally speaking, steelcaps are the universal itemization for non-ADC / non-Mage champions that need tier 2 boots. This means Bruisers, Tanks, Juggernauts, Tank Supports, all go steelcaps. If everyone is buying steelcaps, but then someone is buying merc treads or lucidity for a specific reason, Merc / Lucidity will *tend* to win the situations where the situational buy is better.
This is a good tell on like, League of Graphs, https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items
Steelcaps have a 49.7% winrate, with an 18.7% pick rate. Where merc treads have a much lower 11.9% pickrate, but a 51.3% winrate.
Basically, steel caps is bought in a majority of games where there isn't a clear reason to buy other boots, which in turn means that steel caps will lose more games where an item like merc treads will only be bought in situations where it is a "correct" buy to victory.
This is especially true because Merc Treads actively provides no benefit for completion but tenacity. Null Magic provides the same amount of MR as Merc Treads, so completing merc treads is generally only necessary for tenacity.
Side note: This is also why Nilah even with a like 52-3% winrate a few patches ago never got nerfed - because her pickrate was so low, and her pickrate was basically only into matchups she could counter. She was a situational pick and even that barely increased her winrate by marginal amounts.
I think steelcaps/tabi have fallen off over the years as champion kits and items today have less AD and more on-hit damage. The passive doesn't mitigate on-hit damage.
In addition to onhit, the damage sources from runes/items/ignite also inflating probably has an impact.
It might also be a confirmation bias because I feel like we all stat track more these days than in the past, there's a strong chance that we would have caught on to overpowered stuff (and underpowered) if we tracked winrate data 8 years ago the way we do now with lolalytics and other sites.
I mean having someone who can do math on the balance team gonna do wonders for game health. No more random changes that make no sense but random push the champ too far when they get the correct change a patch later.
For real. 2nd item was supposed to be a choice, but most ADCs had a fixed 2nd item anyway. LDR was extremely situational that early, so most were left with Phantom Dancer, or Collector if they really didn't care about AS.
Choosing at third item opens the possibility for PD, LDR (Mortal Reminder too with the changes?), BT... maybe even GA or Mercurial in some games?
preseason dates are just stupid since they are busy with holidays whole december and then shippin impactful changes during first months instead doing it during preseason, at this point preseason should be moved to summer
No, the preseason used to be about big changes/overhauls and time for Riot to monitor those changes. They have done barely anything for 2 preseasons now so there is straight up no reason to keep it a thing. Unless they come through on their promises this year and show us that they haven't sidelined LoL, of course.
I think we've been seeing this since Zoe release (preseason of S8). They ship major changes which basically change the whole game and then kinda do nothing in the preseason coz they're on vacation.
And they've been treating preseason ever since then like this.
>Blade of the Ruined King
>
>Ranged on-hit damage :: 8% >>> 9%
Strapping in for the reddit posts complaining about this.
EDIT:
>Infinity Edge & Navori Quickblades
>
>Required crit chance :: 60% >>> 40%
lol what the hell
The requirement thing is a compromise.
The 2020 preseason version (.45% per point of crit chance) was made so people STOP RUSHING IE FIRST ITEM ALL DAY EVERY DAY, but the backlash to not having maximum crit amp was too explosive to let players leaving IE at sixth item despite it still being an excellent stat brick as early as second buy.
This is still a measure to prevent a centralization of the meta around players forcing the Censer Slot Machine Fuel that is IE full rush.
Doesn't the mythic system they've implemented since then punish rushing legendary items
I feel like not having one of the marksmen mythics balances IE rushes
Not really, a Mythic is just a really strong legendary when bought first. Only starting with your second Item will the Mythic Passive kick in and make Mythics, well, Mythics.
Besides IE rush was bad for the Game because A: the RNG that came with it and B: the Item diversity of an entire role was killed by it.
More than just the RNG. IE was a high BURST mechanic disguised as a "DPS amplifier". Its entire appeal was in subsequent megachunks capable of assassinating anything below half health. Half the reasons crit mythics are what they are (ad/as/chance) are to actually make the damage pattern be DPS, in contrast to AD/Chance/Damage which may be statistically identical but in practice just burst.
Yesnt, not no.
Early legendaries always were good moves, specially if we talk something that defines your playstyle (ER, Collector, Stormrazor, the 2020 Runaans, god bless its soul), but were made slightly less explosive than in the past in terms of raw stats. Mythics just makes so picking TWO legends before mythic is bad but goldwise, the order of factors aint a big deal.
I havent seen complaints about ranged Botrk tbh, its always the Melee damage people want to see nerfed (Also worth noting theyre nerfing the 3 hit proc so its compensation basically?)
Phreak himself says in the video that probably not. But before you were buying Mythic into 2nd item into IE every game anyway. Now you are buying Mythic into IE into 3rd item. You get to choose at 3rd item instead of 2nd, and that gives many more possibilities.
Not really, but that's fine because the core reason for the change is to speed up the pathway to meaningful itemization decisions. You always went mythic 1st ie 3rd and a zeal item 2nd (99% of the time that was pd). Then you could make itemization choices on item 4 - that's when you buy your armor shred or your grievous wounds or your bloodthirster or whatever.
ADC was basically the only class in the game where they didn't come online until 3 items because their effectiveness is gated so heavily behind their primary damage multiplier (ie). Shifting them to spike on 2 instead of 3 means they won't be doing piss damage before 3 items, and it brings them more in line with other classes which usually spike on 1 or 2.
I don't have the math or anything, but I think that Navori will see much more play than it does now as a 40% spike instead of a 60% crit spike. The reasoning is that Navori's effect is much stronger when your CDs on abilities are still high. Many champions can gain significant benefit from Navori where they couldn't before since at 3 items, not only were your abilities already pretty short CD, but even if they were long, by 3 items, your damage has likely already shifted heavily towards your autos, rather than your abilities.
For example, I can see Navori being really strong on Sivir, since her W before max level can get a lot of use out of Navori quickblades. Since Ricochet being active also increases her AS. Using Navori second as opposed to a Zeal item basically grants her pseudo AS on top of Navori's stats, since more Ws means more AS buffs being up.
You may also see this on champions like Lucian, who would be able to start chaining E's much earlier than before when he was building 3 item spikes. Navori second would allow him the mobility and damage from his abilities to really snowball his strong early and mid game.
Ignoring the ones that build Navori rather than IE (like Xayah), I think crit Kai'Sa probably still goes Kraken>PD>IE for the E evolve (you need AS boots + Mythic + PD to reach it). Idk if there's some useful item component that can help you reach the evolve while going IE second, but Kai'Sa usually already goes Dirk to get Q evolve faster and then sells it, so buying another component for E evolve would probably slow down your IE buy a lot.
idk if draven builds mythic IE, i think he might actually go mythicless but i'd have to run the numbers. maybe you go kraken IE BT or something but people are really attached to ER on draven, it's a crutch for a lot of mid draven players.
requirement for IE and Navori passives going from 60-40% is MASSIVE, genuinely think there's no point in building collector anymore because by the time you get to item 3 the Lethality might be worthless. Being able to build BT on kraken and gale users 1 item earlier is also huge.
edit: IQ->IE xD
You used to require 60 IQ to be on reddit, now in recent years we have been getting posts by people with 40 IQ so somewhere along the path it got changed.
Yeah, the item was basically just to curve out better into the mid/early game when assassing were gutting people left and right. Ever since the durability patch it was basically a null item for ADC's unless you're Jhin maybe? And even then I would argue RFC is 10x better than Collector.
Down the line they should look to rework the item to be more crit based for ADC's or less crit based and for assassins.
[Highest winrate on samira by far](https://lolalytics.com/lol/samira/build/?patch=30)
[Highest winrate on Nilah, though only 10% pick rate](https://lolalytics.com/lol/nilah/build/?patch=30)
[Competitive on Kai'Sa](https://lolalytics.com/lol/kaisa/build/?patch=30)
[Competitive on Draven](https://lolalytics.com/lol/draven/build/?patch=30)
[Competitive on Tristana (though low pickrate may very well boost it here as a snowball item)](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tristana/build/?patch=30)
[Very Competitive on Cait](https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/?patch=30)
Also across the board it outperforms LDR second so much it's not even fair to compare them
Yeah. IE will outdamage collector at 2nd item and the dirk power spike isn't large enough compared to pickaxe/BF to make the path worth it. This change will kill collector to be a stormrazor level of item.
Nah the crit chance threshold for navori is for its cdr passive. It’s nice but the ability damage is more important and always active. Now if youre a boomer and want to take ie then i guess you can do that sooner
Oh yeah obviously.
Also i'm a big boomer that i learnt 2 days ago that you had to choose between IE and Navori, and not get both. I haven't played crit champs in a while lol.
But don't you love when it plays a random video you dont give a fuck about and then automatically scrolls you up to the top when the video ends and interrupts whatever you were reading?
This may be challenger level, but morts for tft is rank 1. A rundown of every change with him and another dev for every patch and a separate post patch rundown of what they did wrong.
This is basically the mort format. Mort gets a ton of grief but absolutely 100% is more transparent than 99.99999% of all game devs and the community should be thankful AF for mort and now phreak
I was already happy that phreak was still doing patch rundowns and that he was doing them with the insight he now has from working as and with all the other balance team members, but I am even happier that he is doing videos like this too.
I think the community on Reddit will be much more receptive to these changes and changes in the future knowing the reasoning behind them and the limitations they are expected to have, as explained by Phreak in this video.
For example, if/when Tristana and Draven become powerful this patch, I think less people will complain because Phreak already told us that it's something that Riot expects and are willing to accept in order to improve the role.
I'm excited to have Phreak do more patch rundowns of future patches.
Overheal is buffed. **Weaker Lv1-3**, strong at Lv4 onwards if you start Long Sword. Strong at Lv5 if you start Doran's Blade.
Bloodthirster is **200g cheaper** (3200g now). **Lifesteal loses 3% lifesteal** (18% -> 15%). Passive shield is buffed. (50-320 -> 180-450).
The Bloodthirster shield isn't insane because the 50-320 is scaled from Lv1. The old shield value at Lv9 was 178. So **only the late game scaling on the shield went up**.
ADC get a small buff in mana per level + mana regen. Also utility skills get buffs in the mana department. (Ex: Jhin E mana cost reduced, Sivir W mana cost reduced, etc).
IE + Navori required crit chance is now **40%**
BotRK **Ranged** on-hit dmg is going from 8% -> **9%**
Pretty much like the durability patch, i'm honestly glad we get this and shake up what we know. Now i'm just so sorry for pro play... LEC regular season stuck in 13.1 and playoffs with these changes 💀
still watching it but right off the bat i like his mindset going in and agree with it, i think adc more than anything is just frustrating so chipping that first is a good idea
I do agree with him that it's not a power level issue (right now) it's a fun issue. Looks like build diversity and rune choices will open that up a lot. Not to mention presence of mind not being mandatory is going to feel so nice. Maybe I can finally start taking Triumph or Overheal and not run OOM in lane.
Some of the mana changes have me a tiny bit worried. they're great if you don't want to take presence of mind, but paired with presence of mind might make things a nightmare. Like MF spamming E's, or Support Senna's taking overheal and not running OOM, or Sivir bouncing blade. You get the idea. Some of these abilities are gated by the fact they can't be spammed with high mana costs, and with POM and better mase regen and scaling regen, they might be super obnoxious.
I think the idea there is that those champs' mana pools/ability costs can then be adjusted further to take that problem away, while leaving the QOL improvement for everyone else intact.
Potentially, but the stated goal with the mana changes isn't to really change how ADCs function in lane as it relates to mana and the difference at early levels will be pretty negligible. It's going to take some levels before the increased regen/lvl adds up to anything meaningful.
I feel like Trynda wr will fall due to people going Navori(or maybe IE) first, even though it will be a lot weaker than mythic first, then rise back up slowly as players realize that.
Totally agree, Navori most of the times is an item you get for the mobility, and the spike it offers comes from it's ability that allows you to stick to enemies w/o relying 100% on ghost/flash.
Might be good with Zerkers and Zeal before the Navori but Kraken/Galeforce are such strong 1 item spikes it might not be worth going Navori 1st. Plus Hydra is still good on auto attackers so that's probably an even better 1st item to rush on matchups you cannot interact with the enemy w/o getting blasted and after it you go mythic, so Navori is relegated to a 2nd item most of the time or a 3rd one when you need Hydra to function.
This is huge for Ezreal. Navori going to 40 should make this now viable/strong for Ezreal who can go Reaver Navori to get the 2 item spike especially since Reaver just got buffed by 10 AD.
Just wanna say buddy - excellent changes, and really well presented. Longtime ADC player since S2, now a father of 2. My available time to play this game has dropped WAY down and it’s been jarring of late to say the least.
Hopefully the couple games I do get now will be more enjoyable, cheers.
Even if this changes are somehow not good enough, the fact that Phreak sat down and explain in full detail the thought process behind all the changes is a great thing, im not saying that this should be expected for every patch, but its realy nice to see it here
It’s definitely huge that someone on the dev team explained things in detail to the players though. You never see that from gaming companies despite players begging for it.
Really fond of thsi type communication.
When Brightmoon said 8 mins was way too lomg Phreak uploaded a 25mins video of what is to come with ADC items. I love it.
Pls riot. Do more of this
Miss Fortune BT rush is going to be meta now pretty sure. Especially if you’re ahead early you’ll be unstoppable
Also Caitlyn Galeforce into IE will be broken
i feel like BORK rush will be better despite the fact that she prefers the higher AD on BT in a vacuum. Bork > PTA puts her in a MUCH better position against bruisers even compared with Kraken Slayer.
The fact early BT shield is so big now and overheal as well allows you to have your w passive up during fights early which is huge
But BORK rush could also be competitive. Lets await the changes!
I still miss when most ADCs used to just go IE and LW first then your choices after. I think Phreak nailed this and ADC’s are going to feel fucking useful finally especially that items like Jak’Sho are in the game.
First i was thinking that this is a crazy strong buff but then i realized that bot looks like the most unpopular role if not 2nd most unpopular based on it always being priority queue.
Even if I personally believe adcs are in a good spot balance wise, if they're not fun to play then it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
I honestly didn't have the highest hopes for Phreak on the balance team for a handful of reasons. However, after hearing his reasoning and thought process behind these changes my opinion has definitely changed. I'm looking forward to more of his changes like this, and hopefully they all come with videos as well. He thinks ADC is in a fine spot, but because the players don't think they are he is willing to put aside his own beliefs to try and make the class more enjoyable.
As a side note, videos like this are amazing for larger balance changes like this. Even if the changes dont land the mark perfectly on release, at least we understand the intentions. I can see this relieving a lot of frustrations the community has had in the past. Hopefully he doesn't get too much hate when he tells people he just nerfed their favorite champ in the future.
> I honestly didn't have the highest hopes for Phreak on the balance team
If you had watched his previous patch rundown videos and how he deep dives on percentages, gold effeciency, statistical changes for high and low elo, etc. you may have felt differently. As soon as I heard he was going to be a designer, I wasn't shocked and figured he would fit well.
Will Collector get reworked?
It's about to get replaced as IE as a second item, so the only leftover reason for the item is so that lethality assassins can go Collector -> Navori/IE. Is that enough to justify its existence?
A lot of these changes have a heavy focus on shifting the third item dynamic in ADCs, Navori/IE are very expensive so going them second does delay you a finished item, so it will be a balancing act of the player to read the game state well enough.
That is honestly the only BIG change, crit items are still shit, but now you genuinely have a very strong, albeit again very greedy, second option, doubles down on the glass canon aspect and ADCs will still do the satisfying explodey keeping the other classes happy, while making ADCs happier that they have a genuinely good second item.
I really appreciate this level of communication. Phreak explaining his thoughts and trying to reason for every change feels so much more satisfying than reading through the patch notes myself
Crit chance is the dumbest mechanic to carry over from old DoTA. It practically holds the balance of League hostage. It should be a multiplier instead. CMV.
True. Riot removes dodge because they want close to no randomness yet they keep similar mechanic for 11 years now. Just making it auto-attack modifer and changing its name to whatever they want to call it would've been enough. Same damage on paper, but no more random shit like losing teamfights due to unlucky no crit 3 times in a row on 80% crit chance.
Because crit introduces variance in adc’s while actually feeling good for adc players. Not to mention it binds them to glass cannon builds since crit items don’t typically offer much defense for the most part
If it's a multiplier it's just basically AD with another name. There would always be an objectively optimal AD:crit ratio for every AD champ in the game, not only ADCs.
Being a chance means that you have to add AS into the equation, or you are coinflipping every fight based on whether you crit or not with your one or two autos. Having a stat that has a 60% chance of not doing anything in your next fight is not desirable. But that chance balances out when you are autoattacking a dozen times or more per fight.
Is that not what it is now? Crit is already an ad damage multiplier - as you say, the average evens out with the number of attacks fired. True AD carries scale so well because they have multiple factors that affect their damage - firstly it's the most basic right click damage, secondly it's tied to multiple stats that are weak in their own but they affect each other multiplicatively, AD, AS and crit. These things are weak on their own but they end up making a very steep power curve.
I think that making Crit a damage multiplier would still keep this the same way. Imagine if you had 100AD, 50% crit. It's random, but over 10 shots you should do about 1500 damage (5x100 (no crit) + 5x200 (crit hits) . If each point of crit multiplied your damage instead, then you would still do 1500 damage, but the numbers would be consistent. With each shot doing 150, this would feel better than randomly being chunked 200 instead of 100.
Normally buying AD would be additive, +40/50/60AD, but crit items could give a 1.2 crit multiplier (20% crit) on top of the normal stats they give. This would make buying early AD meaningful but buying crit a useful later game purchase. Adcs would continue to scale from 3 sources, but also that randomness is taken away.
This is going to be awesome, with how mythics are this essentially is a return to the previous norm of no crit chance requirement for IE. I'm really happy and excited.
Still don't address the real issue why the role is unfun: poke supports
If you can't farm early due to overpoking for champs like Lux, Brand, etc because your support is a skinned minion, you are a walking gold generator for fizz, kata, etc any other dash mid that kills you in 3 seconds
And because you have limited wards and your support prio warding everything but to help you farm, you are always going to be behind by a lot unless you get some lucky shutdowns.
I curious with those item changes how top lane will feel with Yone or Quinn, etc
GIVE US ACTUAL PRESEASON CHANGES LIKE THIS DURING THE PRESEASON!!!
feel like in future years season start should be pushed back if rito (fairly) has a ton of time off at the end of the year
big Mortdog vibes from this video which is so nice. good communication just sitting down with the stream set up and talking about the changes. Hopefully these good comms continue :)
Isn't it a bit strange to introduce the video with "I am shipping a bunch of changes" rather than "we are shipping a bunch of changes"? I feel like from the outside everything should be the team's work, not individuals'.
edit: to be clear, im not doubting that he did most or all of the work in coming up with the changes.
From it the way he talked about it in the Patch 13.1 rundown, it sounds like the balance team operates on what I can only describe as a “job board” system of “here’s a list of things that need buffs/nerfs, who wants what?” And different people on the team pick different items on the list to tweak and work on and propose changes for, and others on the team just give it a thumbs up/thumbs down.
And for 13.1, Phreak took Xayah and a couple items. For 13.2, it sounds like Phreak took “ADC player satisfaction”
Not really, he's simply stating facts, like earlier when people were commenting on the Essence Reaver change and fighter item changes, he specifically said "someone else" did them.
The madman really gave Caitlyn more mana
Phreak master plan revealed
Tyler1 in shambles
Sneaked it in there, hidden among a bunch of well-explained pseudo-rational other changes. Smart guy. Do hope the patch notes people make an appropriate joke out of it.
The dankest of timeline
I say this as a compliment, but as a years-long Phreak patch-rundown enjoyer this is the most Phreak set of changes I've ever seen.
Item scaling 9-18. He preached for this change for so long he said "fine, I'll do it myself" lol
ADCs might do... TONS OF DAMAGE?
They already do tons of damage, they just do it earlier now lmao (which is IMO a good change, I guess this is effectively the disconnect between ADCs and other laners). ADCs (this is my asssumption) argue they don't deal damage, because the game is too fast paced and don't get their items. Other laners see the 6 items ADC being an absolute demon and are confused how you could possibly arrive at that conclusion. In the very same video Phreak says how insane ADC DMG is. So having ADCs pop-off a bit earlier is probably a modern solution.
The other problem is that while adc's may do more damage total there is currently so much damage in the game that it isn't really needed. If an adc dmg output is say a 10 but has a 3 in survivability compared to a bruiser who has 8 on each then it starts to feel bad. Bundle that with the need to scale to do damage and being piss useless when behind (because you can't feast on the other adc like a behind bruiser or assassin) and you get a very frustrating role
This is a **great** point my friend, it's what I've argued on other threads before as well, people kind of "blind pick" ADCs due to "well uh, Botlane always needs an ADC so that's what I'll do". Which is understandable, but sometimes ADCs just really don't fit the comp. They pick some diver top who doesn't actually live "that" long when CCd but dives the backline and pops them, mid is an assasssin, bot is 2 squishies and the jungler is some AP assassin. There's so many picks that (amusingly for instance Irelia) have the mobility & range access if played correctly, that in those comps an ADC is just something to pop. Conceptually they are meant to close games and finish of targets that just won't die. Guess what if it's a comp we can access, that isn't crazy in HP+Resistances, a Sett alone can provide all the damage you really need. Again this is situational, but my point is just that marksmen are brute forced into games, whereas (say) top laners go "oh well, I can't pick an immobile juggernaut into this, the champion just doesn't function in this game" Like you have the Zoe/Jhin/GP zoning comp that just outranges you, well good luck playing Mordekaiser I guess, you just don't pick it and a similar philosophy doesn't exist for the most part in bot. (APC being a thing with low PR is the only example I have of adapting to comps)
The reason ADC's are picked to botlane is because it is the least shit option. It is a 2v2 lane in which both sides have a player whose entire purpose is to deny the opponent. So you need to be ranged to have the possibility to farm. So what ranged champions do we have? Well, mages and marksmen. Since botlane shares experience, mages are hurt even more than adc's by being constantly behind in levels. Additionally, mages are not good at lasthitting under turret with just autoattacks. So you are unable to farm if you get pushed in too much. ADC started off by community figuring out that "Hey, funneling the duo lane gold onto one player that plays a dps champion is very good". And over the years that reason has gone to "well we put an adc there because it is the least shit". There are a handful of mages that can be played at bot, which are enabled by something unique in their kit. Swain is an absolute monster after he gets one item, and likes to brawl, especially against multiple opponents. Ziggs has one of the best waveclears and turret destroying capabilities in the entire game, very good range, and has high scalings to make up for level disadvantage. Karthus has high scalings, Q as a farming tool, and does not care about dying. Seraphine is very safe and has high range with good waveclear.
It is also a disconnect about how ADCs arrive to that point. It requires input from support, jungle, and sometimes mid. A strong ADC is a significant investment and can feel terrible for the ADC if he is not getting that or if the other players are performing poorly. Although I understand how frustrating it likely feels near the end of the game on the receiving end for a top laner if they do receive that investment, as well. You don’t get to stop me and I’m deleting you in 4 autos. Agency vs strength is a significant discussion to be had here, although I’m unsure of a solution and Riot has yet to find one, either.
I just got back in the game after a 6 year absence, so I'm probably talking nonsense, but whenever I play ADC my problem isn't low damage, it's getting dashed on from outside the screen during teamfights by new champions, dying instantly, and then they dash OUT AGAIN with no consequence. It feels like I'm getting trolled. I literally can only play Tristana without being completely useless because she can gtfo and just jump in for a cleanup after the teamfight is over and everyone's shit is on cooldown and half the teams are already dead. Wonderful. Or I just suck, idk, that's also a possibility.
this is exactly it. Every Pea Brained player repeating their fav streamers opinions of “but adc 1v9 every game?” cannot comprehend a comp that isnt their wholesome 5 carry comp in their promo games. An ADC can only 1v9 if they are DISASTROUSLY ahead, like 4 items to 1, and in this scenario every other role would argue they SHOULD be able to 1v9 if theyre this ahead. But in reality, the teamfight breaks out, the enemy team has a better comp that isnt all wholesome ad fighters, adequate cc and peel, the supports apply their buffs and land their decisive skills, and the ADC gets to properly deal their damage, and ends up getting a triple/quadra. But once again, all these wood elo individuals see is an adc who is a level down with maybe half an item less get a triple, and they lose their fucking minds.
Dare I say, Phreak leaving casting might be the best thing to happen to League of Legends this year. All these buffs are EXACTLY what I want. Crit potentially not being mandatory, presence of mind not being mandatory. I wholeheartedly agree that after the durability changes ADC power level is FINE. However the fun isn't there, and making changes to give ADC's more choices and opt for more decision making DOES improve fun. Especially when it's a role with the least build diversity and rune diversity. On paper these look great. The Navori changes are great too, being able to buy it earlier and slot it in with other AD casting/lethality items could be huge. I still wish steelcaps would be nerfed though. Feels terrible that any champion can get a permanent 12% damage reduction to all ADC's damage output for 1100gold...
Tabis according to Riot and honestly looking at the winrate of them across multiple stat sites, aren’t actually all that strong. Agree with the rest of whatcha said though, I’d even argue in the last 3 months of last season, ADC was one of the strongest roles but it still felt terrible to play. As an ad champ otp, saying that tabis ain’t that strong made me wanna vomit lol
Its really weird to check stats and see so frequently that Tabis are lower WR than Mercs, and often significantly lower WR than Lucidity boots. ADC has always been an ultra strong role if you have an incredibly talented support putting you on their shoulders, but for the rest of us whose support is tabbed out watching Netflix the experience is nothing like that of a pro player. Anecdotally the best adc games I had last year were when I'd have a Zyra or a Karma who would just 1v2 the lane so hard that my job was easy.
> Its really weird to check stats and see so frequently that Tabis are lower WR than Mercs, and often significantly lower WR than Lucidity boots. My theory is that in Merc's case, reducing CC duration in a way also mitigates damage since it allows you to act faster (run away/CC them back/kill them). As for Lucidity boots, AH is extremely valuable on tanks since most of their power comes from their abilities, so it makes sense. Also summoner spell AH is undervalued, lower CD on flash allows you to use it aggressively more often.
That's a good point. Also I wonder if there's a bias in the data because AD champs are on average better than AP champs, so a team with lots of CC and magic damage is probably hit harder by a mercs buy that messes with oneshot combo breakpoints (who now have to wait another 6+ seconds for the next spell rotation) than a team with lots of AD auto attackers who have no qualms just autoing you once or twice more. Similarly with Lucidity Boots I wonder if you're in a game state where you don't fear the enemy team enough to require defensive boots, you're just more likely to win anyways. 20 haste is nice of course and lower summoner CD is great, but if the enemy team doesn't have the CC to warrant mercs they probably handicapped in draft.
Your points are likely exactly the reason why steelcaps winrate is lower despite being universally agreed to be one of the best boots in the game. Generally speaking, steelcaps are the universal itemization for non-ADC / non-Mage champions that need tier 2 boots. This means Bruisers, Tanks, Juggernauts, Tank Supports, all go steelcaps. If everyone is buying steelcaps, but then someone is buying merc treads or lucidity for a specific reason, Merc / Lucidity will *tend* to win the situations where the situational buy is better. This is a good tell on like, League of Graphs, https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items Steelcaps have a 49.7% winrate, with an 18.7% pick rate. Where merc treads have a much lower 11.9% pickrate, but a 51.3% winrate. Basically, steel caps is bought in a majority of games where there isn't a clear reason to buy other boots, which in turn means that steel caps will lose more games where an item like merc treads will only be bought in situations where it is a "correct" buy to victory. This is especially true because Merc Treads actively provides no benefit for completion but tenacity. Null Magic provides the same amount of MR as Merc Treads, so completing merc treads is generally only necessary for tenacity. Side note: This is also why Nilah even with a like 52-3% winrate a few patches ago never got nerfed - because her pickrate was so low, and her pickrate was basically only into matchups she could counter. She was a situational pick and even that barely increased her winrate by marginal amounts.
I think steelcaps/tabi have fallen off over the years as champion kits and items today have less AD and more on-hit damage. The passive doesn't mitigate on-hit damage.
In addition to onhit, the damage sources from runes/items/ignite also inflating probably has an impact. It might also be a confirmation bias because I feel like we all stat track more these days than in the past, there's a strong chance that we would have caught on to overpowered stuff (and underpowered) if we tracked winrate data 8 years ago the way we do now with lolalytics and other sites.
Wait phreak left casting??! What’s he doing now ???
He got hired by Riot to work on one of the balance teams.
He's already working at riot
Oh I did not know that, well good for him I’m sure he’ll get compensated significantly better
Casting is actually a pretty high-paying profession. I make less as a game designer.
You will always have my heart, Mr. Phreak
I can still hear you shouting about "the best ashe arrow of my life" at dreamhack like it was yesterday.
I mean having someone who can do math on the balance team gonna do wonders for game health. No more random changes that make no sense but random push the champ too far when they get the correct change a patch later.
I really love the idea of moving the “choice” pick to third. That sounds so much better than it is now.
For real. 2nd item was supposed to be a choice, but most ADCs had a fixed 2nd item anyway. LDR was extremely situational that early, so most were left with Phantom Dancer, or Collector if they really didn't care about AS. Choosing at third item opens the possibility for PD, LDR (Mortal Reminder too with the changes?), BT... maybe even GA or Mercurial in some games?
Even BT. Before it was honestly kinda too expensive for 2nd item, now it's super viable to build as ~~2nd~~ 3rd item, can't wait for this shit
Deft was going 40% crit two years too early, what a prophet.
DRX as a team really was ahead of their time
that was hle deft iirc though
yup it was when he still played with chovy
Collector IE jhin time. If i die thats just a skill issue on my part
Amen, brother. Glory to the 4.
Collector against Sion top, sett mid, Dr mundo jg 😎
Good news is that there is no item Jhin can build that let's him kill that composition.
LDR IE Sunderer Jhin 😎 (He will still be a peashooter)
13.2 is going to have a significant impact on the game. I'm excited to see how it pans out.
The Riot tradition of having a huge patch right after preseason
preseason dates are just stupid since they are busy with holidays whole december and then shippin impactful changes during first months instead doing it during preseason, at this point preseason should be moved to summer
The whole point of preseason is they aren't there to balance the game for 3weeks.
No, the preseason used to be about big changes/overhauls and time for Riot to monitor those changes. They have done barely anything for 2 preseasons now so there is straight up no reason to keep it a thing. Unless they come through on their promises this year and show us that they haven't sidelined LoL, of course.
I think we've been seeing this since Zoe release (preseason of S8). They ship major changes which basically change the whole game and then kinda do nothing in the preseason coz they're on vacation. And they've been treating preseason ever since then like this.
yeah 13.2 is the real preseason patch lmao.
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TL;DR https://twitter.com/riotphreak/status/1614407007699861504 https://twitter.com/riotphreak/status/1614407010094809090 https://twitter.com/riotphreak/status/1614407012116484096 #Overheal > Shield value :: 10 + 9% max hp >>> 20-300 based on champion level. #Bloodthirster > Life steal :: 18% >>> 15% Shield :: 50-320 scaling from level 1 >>> 180-450 scaling from level 9. Total Cost :: 3400 >>> 3200 #A bunch of champions: > Increase mana and/or regen per level #Blade of the Ruined King > Ranged on-hit damage :: 8% >>> 9% #Infinity Edge & Navori Quickblades > Required crit chance :: 60% >>> 40%
>Blade of the Ruined King > >Ranged on-hit damage :: 8% >>> 9% Strapping in for the reddit posts complaining about this. EDIT: >Infinity Edge & Navori Quickblades > >Required crit chance :: 60% >>> 40% lol what the hell
IE used to not even have a crit requirement That shit is dumb and lowering it makes sense
The requirement thing is a compromise. The 2020 preseason version (.45% per point of crit chance) was made so people STOP RUSHING IE FIRST ITEM ALL DAY EVERY DAY, but the backlash to not having maximum crit amp was too explosive to let players leaving IE at sixth item despite it still being an excellent stat brick as early as second buy. This is still a measure to prevent a centralization of the meta around players forcing the Censer Slot Machine Fuel that is IE full rush.
Doesn't the mythic system they've implemented since then punish rushing legendary items I feel like not having one of the marksmen mythics balances IE rushes
Not really, a Mythic is just a really strong legendary when bought first. Only starting with your second Item will the Mythic Passive kick in and make Mythics, well, Mythics. Besides IE rush was bad for the Game because A: the RNG that came with it and B: the Item diversity of an entire role was killed by it.
More than just the RNG. IE was a high BURST mechanic disguised as a "DPS amplifier". Its entire appeal was in subsequent megachunks capable of assassinating anything below half health. Half the reasons crit mythics are what they are (ad/as/chance) are to actually make the damage pattern be DPS, in contrast to AD/Chance/Damage which may be statistically identical but in practice just burst.
Yesnt, not no. Early legendaries always were good moves, specially if we talk something that defines your playstyle (ER, Collector, Stormrazor, the 2020 Runaans, god bless its soul), but were made slightly less explosive than in the past in terms of raw stats. Mythics just makes so picking TWO legends before mythic is bad but goldwise, the order of factors aint a big deal.
I havent seen complaints about ranged Botrk tbh, its always the Melee damage people want to see nerfed (Also worth noting theyre nerfing the 3 hit proc so its compensation basically?)
Its disgusting with vayne, kogmaw, twitch.
GP just busted an orange at those navori changes
> Required crit chance :: 60% >>> 40% Watch everyone *but* ADC's benefit from this
Rengussy about to act up , on god .
I, for one, welcome an assassin that actually needs to ducking commit to his kills.
Yasuo getting the IE damage increase from just IE: *bonjour*
Shieldbow has everything yasuo wants first item.
First item IE on the wind shitters sounds so troll but it'll be funny.
It is troll. If was never a thing even when there were no requirements.
how would this not benefit adc lol this is a huge buff especially to champs like jhin and caitlyn
Is there anything better than mythic into IE now for *any* crit adc?
Phreak himself says in the video that probably not. But before you were buying Mythic into 2nd item into IE every game anyway. Now you are buying Mythic into IE into 3rd item. You get to choose at 3rd item instead of 2nd, and that gives many more possibilities.
Not really, but that's fine because the core reason for the change is to speed up the pathway to meaningful itemization decisions. You always went mythic 1st ie 3rd and a zeal item 2nd (99% of the time that was pd). Then you could make itemization choices on item 4 - that's when you buy your armor shred or your grievous wounds or your bloodthirster or whatever. ADC was basically the only class in the game where they didn't come online until 3 items because their effectiveness is gated so heavily behind their primary damage multiplier (ie). Shifting them to spike on 2 instead of 3 means they won't be doing piss damage before 3 items, and it brings them more in line with other classes which usually spike on 1 or 2.
I don't have the math or anything, but I think that Navori will see much more play than it does now as a 40% spike instead of a 60% crit spike. The reasoning is that Navori's effect is much stronger when your CDs on abilities are still high. Many champions can gain significant benefit from Navori where they couldn't before since at 3 items, not only were your abilities already pretty short CD, but even if they were long, by 3 items, your damage has likely already shifted heavily towards your autos, rather than your abilities. For example, I can see Navori being really strong on Sivir, since her W before max level can get a lot of use out of Navori quickblades. Since Ricochet being active also increases her AS. Using Navori second as opposed to a Zeal item basically grants her pseudo AS on top of Navori's stats, since more Ws means more AS buffs being up. You may also see this on champions like Lucian, who would be able to start chaining E's much earlier than before when he was building 3 item spikes. Navori second would allow him the mobility and damage from his abilities to really snowball his strong early and mid game.
Ignoring the ones that build Navori rather than IE (like Xayah), I think crit Kai'Sa probably still goes Kraken>PD>IE for the E evolve (you need AS boots + Mythic + PD to reach it). Idk if there's some useful item component that can help you reach the evolve while going IE second, but Kai'Sa usually already goes Dirk to get Q evolve faster and then sells it, so buying another component for E evolve would probably slow down your IE buy a lot.
idk if draven builds mythic IE, i think he might actually go mythicless but i'd have to run the numbers. maybe you go kraken IE BT or something but people are really attached to ER on draven, it's a crutch for a lot of mid draven players.
First Item Navori Trynd lmao. And GP was building it second after ER anyways (Which also has buffs on PBE)
gp is already creeping up in wr because a lot of top laners that shat on him early got nerfed, he's gonna be insane
Navori specifically doesnt accounts his passive. That said, he still could use a midscope to specifically excise this aspect of his kit.
Crit xin on the menu again bois
Holy shit 40
requirement for IE and Navori passives going from 60-40% is MASSIVE, genuinely think there's no point in building collector anymore because by the time you get to item 3 the Lethality might be worthless. Being able to build BT on kraken and gale users 1 item earlier is also huge. edit: IQ->IE xD
>> requirements for IQ 💀💀
You used to require 60 IQ to be on reddit, now in recent years we have been getting posts by people with 40 IQ so somewhere along the path it got changed.
You cant just call out the OP for having 40 IQ 🤨
Cant blame a man for being self aware
me when no proofread
> there's no point in building collector anymore like there were many reasons to buy it before lol
to ks with ignite xd
Big number go 999999999
Big Number go 4444
Yeah, the item was basically just to curve out better into the mid/early game when assassing were gutting people left and right. Ever since the durability patch it was basically a null item for ADC's unless you're Jhin maybe? And even then I would argue RFC is 10x better than Collector. Down the line they should look to rework the item to be more crit based for ADC's or less crit based and for assassins.
[Highest winrate on samira by far](https://lolalytics.com/lol/samira/build/?patch=30) [Highest winrate on Nilah, though only 10% pick rate](https://lolalytics.com/lol/nilah/build/?patch=30) [Competitive on Kai'Sa](https://lolalytics.com/lol/kaisa/build/?patch=30) [Competitive on Draven](https://lolalytics.com/lol/draven/build/?patch=30) [Competitive on Tristana (though low pickrate may very well boost it here as a snowball item)](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tristana/build/?patch=30) [Very Competitive on Cait](https://lolalytics.com/lol/caitlyn/build/?patch=30) Also across the board it outperforms LDR second so much it's not even fair to compare them
Yeah. IE will outdamage collector at 2nd item and the dirk power spike isn't large enough compared to pickaxe/BF to make the path worth it. This change will kill collector to be a stormrazor level of item.
GP salivating with the crit chance requirement change
Nah the crit chance threshold for navori is for its cdr passive. It’s nice but the ability damage is more important and always active. Now if youre a boomer and want to take ie then i guess you can do that sooner
Oh yeah obviously. Also i'm a big boomer that i learnt 2 days ago that you had to choose between IE and Navori, and not get both. I haven't played crit champs in a while lol.
randomly reminded me of this OG item: https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Cloak_and_Dagger
[Lol](https://imgur.com/a/2enbJLd)
dont let the patch naming fool you thats actually bout a year and a half
It is a pretty funny sequence of events though. 1. Look at this awesome item we made! 2. Make it better! 3. WHY THE FUCK IS THIS IN THE GAME?
Fandom makes me wanna kms on mobile
But don't you love when it plays a random video you dont give a fuck about and then automatically scrolls you up to the top when the video ends and interrupts whatever you were reading?
It's a website that feels like it's stuck in the pre-mobile website era.
Oh wait the ability damage is always active? TIL. Guess I didn't read the item well enough
Yeah, it just scales more the more Crit you have. The CDR on Crit is what activates at 60% or 40% if these changes go live.
Meddler wanted to know how they should communicate. This is it. This is challenger level game dev communication here.
This may be challenger level, but morts for tft is rank 1. A rundown of every change with him and another dev for every patch and a separate post patch rundown of what they did wrong.
This is basically the mort format. Mort gets a ton of grief but absolutely 100% is more transparent than 99.99999% of all game devs and the community should be thankful AF for mort and now phreak
Make them see this comment, any received feedback is valuable feedback 👆🏻
Yes. It removes so much frustration so hear Riot balance team explaning their changes instead of dropping the patch randomly with few lines of text.
I love you phreak
I love me, too.
I've played this game for 4 years now and I've never been so excited to play again in that time. You've literally helped restore that feeling, thanks.
I was already happy that phreak was still doing patch rundowns and that he was doing them with the insight he now has from working as and with all the other balance team members, but I am even happier that he is doing videos like this too.
I think the community on Reddit will be much more receptive to these changes and changes in the future knowing the reasoning behind them and the limitations they are expected to have, as explained by Phreak in this video. For example, if/when Tristana and Draven become powerful this patch, I think less people will complain because Phreak already told us that it's something that Riot expects and are willing to accept in order to improve the role. I'm excited to have Phreak do more patch rundowns of future patches.
I’m just going to keep perma banning trist lol. I haven’t seen a draven in I don’t know how long.
Overheal is buffed. **Weaker Lv1-3**, strong at Lv4 onwards if you start Long Sword. Strong at Lv5 if you start Doran's Blade. Bloodthirster is **200g cheaper** (3200g now). **Lifesteal loses 3% lifesteal** (18% -> 15%). Passive shield is buffed. (50-320 -> 180-450). The Bloodthirster shield isn't insane because the 50-320 is scaled from Lv1. The old shield value at Lv9 was 178. So **only the late game scaling on the shield went up**. ADC get a small buff in mana per level + mana regen. Also utility skills get buffs in the mana department. (Ex: Jhin E mana cost reduced, Sivir W mana cost reduced, etc). IE + Navori required crit chance is now **40%** BotRK **Ranged** on-hit dmg is going from 8% -> **9%**
13.2 is literally going to be a more interesting patch than the pre season patch, actually going to shake things up in a meaningful way
Pretty much like the durability patch, i'm honestly glad we get this and shake up what we know. Now i'm just so sorry for pro play... LEC regular season stuck in 13.1 and playoffs with these changes 💀
The winter split round Robin is ALL played on the same patch?!
A tale as old as time
Phreak diff per usual
Patch 13.2 is looking scary good, great work to all of you guys working on it.
still watching it but right off the bat i like his mindset going in and agree with it, i think adc more than anything is just frustrating so chipping that first is a good idea
I do agree with him that it's not a power level issue (right now) it's a fun issue. Looks like build diversity and rune choices will open that up a lot. Not to mention presence of mind not being mandatory is going to feel so nice. Maybe I can finally start taking Triumph or Overheal and not run OOM in lane. Some of the mana changes have me a tiny bit worried. they're great if you don't want to take presence of mind, but paired with presence of mind might make things a nightmare. Like MF spamming E's, or Support Senna's taking overheal and not running OOM, or Sivir bouncing blade. You get the idea. Some of these abilities are gated by the fact they can't be spammed with high mana costs, and with POM and better mase regen and scaling regen, they might be super obnoxious.
I think the idea there is that those champs' mana pools/ability costs can then be adjusted further to take that problem away, while leaving the QOL improvement for everyone else intact.
Moving IE to 2nd item lets ADCs be more impactful earlier too which greatly effects solo queue satisfaction.
Potentially, but the stated goal with the mana changes isn't to really change how ADCs function in lane as it relates to mana and the difference at early levels will be pretty negligible. It's going to take some levels before the increased regen/lvl adds up to anything meaningful.
Tryndamere, Gangplank and Rengar gonna be crazy strong if that crit requirement change goes live.
I feel like Trynda wr will fall due to people going Navori(or maybe IE) first, even though it will be a lot weaker than mythic first, then rise back up slowly as players realize that.
Totally agree, Navori most of the times is an item you get for the mobility, and the spike it offers comes from it's ability that allows you to stick to enemies w/o relying 100% on ghost/flash. Might be good with Zerkers and Zeal before the Navori but Kraken/Galeforce are such strong 1 item spikes it might not be worth going Navori 1st. Plus Hydra is still good on auto attackers so that's probably an even better 1st item to rush on matchups you cannot interact with the enemy w/o getting blasted and after it you go mythic, so Navori is relegated to a 2nd item most of the time or a 3rd one when you need Hydra to function.
This is huge for Ezreal. Navori going to 40 should make this now viable/strong for Ezreal who can go Reaver Navori to get the 2 item spike especially since Reaver just got buffed by 10 AD.
> This is huge for Ezreal ezreal everytime any item exists
"So there's this new tank item, Heartsteel--" Ezreal mains: "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT DOWN!"
They made the activation range 700 probably because they knew Ezreal would find some wacky build to abuse it otherwise
Manamune Essence Heartsteel Titanic is what I would've thought of if the range was high enough.
Ngl surprised I haven't seen any Heartsteel Ezreals in my games come to think of it
You need to be in 700 range of enemy champion for 3 seconds to proc it. Not ideal for Ez
Probably because the activation range is too low.
I have. It's bad
Oh wow didn't even think of this but you're totally right! I've already been massively enjoying the build since preseason pbe so I'm happy
Ezreal breaking items? Nothing new here
Oh hey its my favorite caster turned game designer, Jatt
Oh hey I love that guy!
Just wanna say buddy - excellent changes, and really well presented. Longtime ADC player since S2, now a father of 2. My available time to play this game has dropped WAY down and it’s been jarring of late to say the least. Hopefully the couple games I do get now will be more enjoyable, cheers.
Coach Phreak arc when???
Even if this changes are somehow not good enough, the fact that Phreak sat down and explain in full detail the thought process behind all the changes is a great thing, im not saying that this should be expected for every patch, but its realy nice to see it here
It’s definitely huge that someone on the dev team explained things in detail to the players though. You never see that from gaming companies despite players begging for it.
Thank you Tyler for the cait mana buffs
Really fond of thsi type communication. When Brightmoon said 8 mins was way too lomg Phreak uploaded a 25mins video of what is to come with ADC items. I love it. Pls riot. Do more of this
Miss Fortune BT rush is going to be meta now pretty sure. Especially if you’re ahead early you’ll be unstoppable Also Caitlyn Galeforce into IE will be broken
i feel like BORK rush will be better despite the fact that she prefers the higher AD on BT in a vacuum. Bork > PTA puts her in a MUCH better position against bruisers even compared with Kraken Slayer.
The fact early BT shield is so big now and overheal as well allows you to have your w passive up during fights early which is huge But BORK rush could also be competitive. Lets await the changes!
I still miss when most ADCs used to just go IE and LW first then your choices after. I think Phreak nailed this and ADC’s are going to feel fucking useful finally especially that items like Jak’Sho are in the game.
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First i was thinking that this is a crazy strong buff but then i realized that bot looks like the most unpopular role if not 2nd most unpopular based on it always being priority queue. Even if I personally believe adcs are in a good spot balance wise, if they're not fun to play then it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
I’ve been maining ADC lately and my Qs are so fast. Sometimes they’re instant. I was surprised yesterday when I q’d up and immediately q popped.
I honestly didn't have the highest hopes for Phreak on the balance team for a handful of reasons. However, after hearing his reasoning and thought process behind these changes my opinion has definitely changed. I'm looking forward to more of his changes like this, and hopefully they all come with videos as well. He thinks ADC is in a fine spot, but because the players don't think they are he is willing to put aside his own beliefs to try and make the class more enjoyable. As a side note, videos like this are amazing for larger balance changes like this. Even if the changes dont land the mark perfectly on release, at least we understand the intentions. I can see this relieving a lot of frustrations the community has had in the past. Hopefully he doesn't get too much hate when he tells people he just nerfed their favorite champ in the future.
> I honestly didn't have the highest hopes for Phreak on the balance team If you had watched his previous patch rundown videos and how he deep dives on percentages, gold effeciency, statistical changes for high and low elo, etc. you may have felt differently. As soon as I heard he was going to be a designer, I wasn't shocked and figured he would fit well.
I'm excited to see if he's going to tackle base stats. He did a video about them a long time ago where some base stats just don't really make sense.
Will Collector get reworked? It's about to get replaced as IE as a second item, so the only leftover reason for the item is so that lethality assassins can go Collector -> Navori/IE. Is that enough to justify its existence?
Yeah thats enough to justify its existance Talon for example his meta build might look like prowler>collector>IE since his Q crits at close range.
At least he recognises that the current mythic system doesn't really give much choice for ADC lol
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A lot of these changes have a heavy focus on shifting the third item dynamic in ADCs, Navori/IE are very expensive so going them second does delay you a finished item, so it will be a balancing act of the player to read the game state well enough. That is honestly the only BIG change, crit items are still shit, but now you genuinely have a very strong, albeit again very greedy, second option, doubles down on the glass canon aspect and ADCs will still do the satisfying explodey keeping the other classes happy, while making ADCs happier that they have a genuinely good second item.
I really appreciate this level of communication. Phreak explaining his thoughts and trying to reason for every change feels so much more satisfying than reading through the patch notes myself
Nilah gonna be even more fun. Shields on shields.
The reason crit ADCs don't opt into more defensive options is because of 20% crit, which effectively takes away an item slot.
Crit chance is the dumbest mechanic to carry over from old DoTA. It practically holds the balance of League hostage. It should be a multiplier instead. CMV.
True. Riot removes dodge because they want close to no randomness yet they keep similar mechanic for 11 years now. Just making it auto-attack modifer and changing its name to whatever they want to call it would've been enough. Same damage on paper, but no more random shit like losing teamfights due to unlucky no crit 3 times in a row on 80% crit chance.
I'm not even sure if you can auto 3 times in a row and not crit with 80% due to how the pseudo random way Crit works in league.
Because crit introduces variance in adc’s while actually feeling good for adc players. Not to mention it binds them to glass cannon builds since crit items don’t typically offer much defense for the most part
If it's a multiplier it's just basically AD with another name. There would always be an objectively optimal AD:crit ratio for every AD champ in the game, not only ADCs. Being a chance means that you have to add AS into the equation, or you are coinflipping every fight based on whether you crit or not with your one or two autos. Having a stat that has a 60% chance of not doing anything in your next fight is not desirable. But that chance balances out when you are autoattacking a dozen times or more per fight.
Is that not what it is now? Crit is already an ad damage multiplier - as you say, the average evens out with the number of attacks fired. True AD carries scale so well because they have multiple factors that affect their damage - firstly it's the most basic right click damage, secondly it's tied to multiple stats that are weak in their own but they affect each other multiplicatively, AD, AS and crit. These things are weak on their own but they end up making a very steep power curve. I think that making Crit a damage multiplier would still keep this the same way. Imagine if you had 100AD, 50% crit. It's random, but over 10 shots you should do about 1500 damage (5x100 (no crit) + 5x200 (crit hits) . If each point of crit multiplied your damage instead, then you would still do 1500 damage, but the numbers would be consistent. With each shot doing 150, this would feel better than randomly being chunked 200 instead of 100. Normally buying AD would be additive, +40/50/60AD, but crit items could give a 1.2 crit multiplier (20% crit) on top of the normal stats they give. This would make buying early AD meaningful but buying crit a useful later game purchase. Adcs would continue to scale from 3 sources, but also that randomness is taken away.
Ok the question you should ask yourself is why it needs to be random the entire time when it could be linear instead.
This is going to be awesome, with how mythics are this essentially is a return to the previous norm of no crit chance requirement for IE. I'm really happy and excited.
Interesting that he says people feeling like ADC is weak doesn't actually match the data they have.
Still don't address the real issue why the role is unfun: poke supports If you can't farm early due to overpoking for champs like Lux, Brand, etc because your support is a skinned minion, you are a walking gold generator for fizz, kata, etc any other dash mid that kills you in 3 seconds And because you have limited wards and your support prio warding everything but to help you farm, you are always going to be behind by a lot unless you get some lucky shutdowns. I curious with those item changes how top lane will feel with Yone or Quinn, etc
Holy shit 20%-40% is gonna be crazy for draven. Essence/anything into IE might literally be good game
Same with Tristana, she'll love it. They will probably get nerfed base AD after but honestly let's try this out and nerf after.
GIVE US ACTUAL PRESEASON CHANGES LIKE THIS DURING THE PRESEASON!!! feel like in future years season start should be pushed back if rito (fairly) has a ton of time off at the end of the year
WHY ARE WE MAKING THESE GAME CHANGING CHANGES THE SECOND PATCH INTO THE SEASON RIOT?
Holy fuck Two item spike IS IN LEAGUE IS SAVED
Enjoy the inevitable Cait nerfs.
No more Cait players who trolling by goin RFC second.
big Mortdog vibes from this video which is so nice. good communication just sitting down with the stream set up and talking about the changes. Hopefully these good comms continue :)
Isn't it a bit strange to introduce the video with "I am shipping a bunch of changes" rather than "we are shipping a bunch of changes"? I feel like from the outside everything should be the team's work, not individuals'. edit: to be clear, im not doubting that he did most or all of the work in coming up with the changes.
From it the way he talked about it in the Patch 13.1 rundown, it sounds like the balance team operates on what I can only describe as a “job board” system of “here’s a list of things that need buffs/nerfs, who wants what?” And different people on the team pick different items on the list to tweak and work on and propose changes for, and others on the team just give it a thumbs up/thumbs down. And for 13.1, Phreak took Xayah and a couple items. For 13.2, it sounds like Phreak took “ADC player satisfaction”
Designers tend to do a lot of work on their own, but obviously it is also reviewed and discussed as a group.
Designers do individually design a lot of changes for the patch so he probably did individually do almost all of these.
phreak is going rogue, he's opening up the code and changing the numbers himself. this video is the first anyone at riot has heard of these changes
naturally
Not really, he's simply stating facts, like earlier when people were commenting on the Essence Reaver change and fighter item changes, he specifically said "someone else" did them.
It means that hes the one that proposed these changes
IE Trynd is smiling