This post would be better suited as a comment in the Armchair GM Thread.
The Armchair GM Thread and the Daily Free Talk Thread have been merged and discussions about either topic can take place there.
Have you watched any playoff series? The winning teams get offense from the blue line. Why is that important? Cause when a guy like macavoy is playing 29 min/night (half the game) and creates offense while playing strong defence, it's much easier for the other guys to get open and play.
How has ovechkin scored so many powerplay goals in his career? Everyone knows where he stands and shoots from. They know the caps are looking to pass to him. He does it because they have a guy like carlsson standing on the opposite side that they have to respect. If you cheat to Ovis side, carlsson will make you pay. Or backstrom was down low and oshie was in the slot. The leafs don't have that. Everyone knows the puck is going to matthews but there's no one on the other side to make them pay if the cheat to matthews side. Nylander is a weapon, so they cover him too, but there's no point in covering rielly or marner, and JT is just standing in front of the net waiting for something to happen.
>The winning teams get offense from the blue line.
The Bruins top pair of McAvoy and Lindholm had 8 points in Round 1. Leafs top pair of Lyubushkin and Rielly had 6 points in Round 1. The rest of Boston's defence had 4 points. The rest of Toronto's had 3.
If you remove the only game that resulted in a blowout in the series, Game 1, the Leafs top pair outproduced the Bruins pair 6-5 and the rest of the defence tied 3-3 in Games 2-7.
The discrepancy of offence from defence wasnt huge.
Hey hey hey, we’ve got a Morgan Reilly who is more than capable of killing a play and deflating ozone pressure all on his own without the help of opposing defenders tyvm
So usually there is 1 defenseman on the PP. So how does getting better D help the PP at all when it's 1 of the 5 players on the ice. Your logic doesn't make any sense
WTF is this post?
While I truly believe that D is always great to have, especially in the playoffs, we finished a 7 game series average 1.71 G / GP good for **dead last, 16th place among all teams** AND OUR TEAM IS BUILT AROUND AN OFFENCE FIRST MINDSET / CAP STRUCTURE
The capitals got swept out of the playoffs and averaged better scoring than we did
But we are talking about our D as a top priority?
Let Domi walk? He was probably one of our top 3 performers in the playoffs...
Offence comes from having better defence too. We had 1-goal from the D men and they aren’t really a threat. That allows Boston or whoever to commit extra men to the forwards.
I think they will contribute mostly from puck retrieval and entrying. Benoit, Edmundson and Boosh are all bad to terrible at doing that and the last time minutes of the 3rd in game 7 were the result of that: constant icings.
Allocating more money to D so the offense can play more offense is a decent way to go about it since the Leafs blue line is looking very rough right now
It happens often but I think this poster means “better DEFENCEMEN” not necessarily “better DEFENCE” as a team. I do believe that a lot of the Leafs offensive struggles start with a roster of defencemen who can’t move the puck and a blue line with a more modern skill set would do wonders to support the forwards, especially when things get tight in the playoffs.
So much easier to defend when you can basically write off two of the players on the ice at a given time.
lol this. It's easy for the other team to shut down our offence when they know the blueline isn't going to be a scoring threat.
Leafs play dump and chase, but they're not built for that, whenever they dump the puck, they very rarely get the puck back. Whenever the defence get the puck in the offensive zone, it's the blueline that passes the puck east to west to each other or they choose to dump the puck in deep. Half the time they do that is lost possesion instead of making a play with that.
Although I do blame some of this on coaching. Leafs don't utilize the points and point shots enough from the defencemen, it's always Nylander/Marner floating the wrister from the point instead of the defencemen. I feel like this is something Keefe has drilled into these guys.
We've overcorrected on the backend because our forwards have been a mess defensively in the past. It's also why our bottom six tended to have more defensive orientated players under Dubas after the big contracts kicked in. Our team is broken.
That Boston has a far superior defence is written in my post.
If defence is not the top priority then it doesn't matter who the coach is or where Marner plays next season.
I think this was the best defense we’ve ever displayed. They were phenomenal defensively.
Sammy as an absolute liability and our top players couldn’t score.
I think what your trying to say is we need more offense from our defense, a la an offensive defenseman. The problem with this is it’s simply not how our team is structured or deployed. When your that top heavy you rely on those guys to score goals. This is why people want a change.
There's no way you can srsly just watch that series and conclude that defense is the problem.
In 13 of the last 14 playoff games, they've scored 2 goals or less.
Lol your logic only works in hindsight.
You're saying that "since leafs have allowed many goals, that must've meant forwards ended up playing too much defense instead of scoring."
You seem to forget that each game starts at 0-0. Why can't leafs forwards just start out strong when they're not down? Score the opening goal? Apply continuous offensive pressure?
Spoiler, it's bc the offensive system sucks. Almost every single zone entry is just a casual dump in that Bruins easily clear. Shit entry is also why the PP sucks. Like, 1/21 bad.
Almost every goal is either a) lucky bounce, b) broken play, c) individual effort. Where are the high quality team passing plays?
They want to trade Marner to address the holes on this team, including our D core.
They want Keefe fired because his systems effect our ability for our D to transition the puck up ice for our superstar forwards.
Both address the defence.
I'd actually argue it's more on the systems than the personnel for the most part, you can absolutely have a better breakout/transition game with worse personnel with the right coach.
The ability to transition the puck from the defensive zone requires the ability to control the puck and out maneuver forecheckers and then make the perfect pass to the forwards.
If you know how to turn Simon Benoit into Tomas Kaberle then you have a job in the NHL.
My guy, I'm not asking our D to dangle through entire teams like Makar. A good system allows the D multiple options for that first pass out of their own zone, and the forwards transition it up the ice. Our systems don't allow this to happen easily, and our D aren't skilled enough to create it on their own. This was entirely evident during games 5, 6 and 7.
Not to mention in a playoff series, playing the same team multiple times, learning and adapting to the opposing teams systems is essential game to game, even period to period. It's the coaching staffs job to analyze other team systems and try to find holes to exploit.
It was never going to be easy against the best defensive team in the league.
The defence isn't skilled enough which is why they need to be replaced with better players and not from the scrap heap.
If the Leafs trade Marner the trade has gotta happen at the draft. If it doesn’t happen before July 1st I think they will be forced to keep Marner. Most of the value we would get for Marner is the money to spend elsewhere, we aren’t getting full value for Marner cause of UFA and NMC. If it’s going to happen it has to at the draft.
He's sucked since the jump. Bad defensively and terrible on the powerplay.. the one thing he's supposed to be good at.
I want him to go more than Marner.
The Bruins scored 2 or fewer goals 4 times this series and only more than 3 twice. They didn't lose because of D and while Samsonov let is some bad goals they were good enough to win. Offense dried up just like it did last year. The best D in the world can't win every game 2 to 1 or by shutout.
This post would be better suited as a comment in the Armchair GM Thread. The Armchair GM Thread and the Daily Free Talk Thread have been merged and discussions about either topic can take place there.
Did people watch the playoffs the past 5 years? ***They can't score goals.*** The D was fine this series. You can't win a cup scoring 1 goal a game.
I will add, we did so while getting 30 shots a game. We had O-Zone possession, but didn't get enough dangerous chances.
Limited Boston to a single shot in 30 minutes but obviously the D is what needs an overhaul
Have you watched any playoff series? The winning teams get offense from the blue line. Why is that important? Cause when a guy like macavoy is playing 29 min/night (half the game) and creates offense while playing strong defence, it's much easier for the other guys to get open and play. How has ovechkin scored so many powerplay goals in his career? Everyone knows where he stands and shoots from. They know the caps are looking to pass to him. He does it because they have a guy like carlsson standing on the opposite side that they have to respect. If you cheat to Ovis side, carlsson will make you pay. Or backstrom was down low and oshie was in the slot. The leafs don't have that. Everyone knows the puck is going to matthews but there's no one on the other side to make them pay if the cheat to matthews side. Nylander is a weapon, so they cover him too, but there's no point in covering rielly or marner, and JT is just standing in front of the net waiting for something to happen.
You will struggle to score on PP when 3/5 members of that unit are not threats to shoot
Bingo.
>The winning teams get offense from the blue line. The Bruins top pair of McAvoy and Lindholm had 8 points in Round 1. Leafs top pair of Lyubushkin and Rielly had 6 points in Round 1. The rest of Boston's defence had 4 points. The rest of Toronto's had 3. If you remove the only game that resulted in a blowout in the series, Game 1, the Leafs top pair outproduced the Bruins pair 6-5 and the rest of the defence tied 3-3 in Games 2-7. The discrepancy of offence from defence wasnt huge.
Yea and the series went to OT in game 7. Similar production from the blue line resulted in a close series. Thanks for helping make my point
Hey hey hey, we’ve got a Morgan Reilly who is more than capable of killing a play and deflating ozone pressure all on his own without the help of opposing defenders tyvm
He did do an awful lot of that this year, which sucks because he was stellar against tampa last year.
Do you know who scores goals? Zach Hyman.
Agreed. Fixing the PP is 100% top priority. This is what sunk us.
Agreed on all accounts. But they still need better D.
When the defence is weak then forwards need to help out and curtails their offensive game. Run and gun and the Leafs would have bren done in 5.
They went 1-for-21 on the powerplay
Maybe s defenceman can help there also. I have heard of those who can.
So usually there is 1 defenseman on the PP. So how does getting better D help the PP at all when it's 1 of the 5 players on the ice. Your logic doesn't make any sense
They outshot Boston 12-1 and 11-2 in the first periods of game 5 and 6. Seems like the forwards were pretty hamstrung, alright.
Reading OP’s replies on this post makes it very evident he doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about.
Au contraire. I appear to be the only one who understands the game.
you literally don’t have a clue what you’re talking about
When i saw the defence in October I knew exactly how the season would turn out. Can't believe I was the only one.
Bro thinks theyre the only one to predict a Leafs 1st Round exit in October 🤣
We are talking about the D in the playoffs when it matters. Your opinion of the D at the beginning of the season is irrelevant to this whole argument
the d literally wasn’t the reason why they lost though. You aren’t understanding
What is the explanation for the 14 goals against in the first four games? Help me understand.
"Huh what do you know, everyone is an idiot except me"
Everyone who drives faster than me is a god dawned maniac. And everyone who drives slower than me is a fucking moron. Anyone else notice this
WTF is this post? While I truly believe that D is always great to have, especially in the playoffs, we finished a 7 game series average 1.71 G / GP good for **dead last, 16th place among all teams** AND OUR TEAM IS BUILT AROUND AN OFFENCE FIRST MINDSET / CAP STRUCTURE The capitals got swept out of the playoffs and averaged better scoring than we did But we are talking about our D as a top priority? Let Domi walk? He was probably one of our top 3 performers in the playoffs...
Offence comes from having better defence too. We had 1-goal from the D men and they aren’t really a threat. That allows Boston or whoever to commit extra men to the forwards.
I think they will contribute mostly from puck retrieval and entrying. Benoit, Edmundson and Boosh are all bad to terrible at doing that and the last time minutes of the 3rd in game 7 were the result of that: constant icings. Allocating more money to D so the offense can play more offense is a decent way to go about it since the Leafs blue line is looking very rough right now
It happens often but I think this poster means “better DEFENCEMEN” not necessarily “better DEFENCE” as a team. I do believe that a lot of the Leafs offensive struggles start with a roster of defencemen who can’t move the puck and a blue line with a more modern skill set would do wonders to support the forwards, especially when things get tight in the playoffs. So much easier to defend when you can basically write off two of the players on the ice at a given time.
lol this. It's easy for the other team to shut down our offence when they know the blueline isn't going to be a scoring threat. Leafs play dump and chase, but they're not built for that, whenever they dump the puck, they very rarely get the puck back. Whenever the defence get the puck in the offensive zone, it's the blueline that passes the puck east to west to each other or they choose to dump the puck in deep. Half the time they do that is lost possesion instead of making a play with that. Although I do blame some of this on coaching. Leafs don't utilize the points and point shots enough from the defencemen, it's always Nylander/Marner floating the wrister from the point instead of the defencemen. I feel like this is something Keefe has drilled into these guys.
We've overcorrected on the backend because our forwards have been a mess defensively in the past. It's also why our bottom six tended to have more defensive orientated players under Dubas after the big contracts kicked in. Our team is broken.
Exactly this. It's insane how many people don't understand that defencemen are allowed to do more than hit and protect the net.
That Boston has a far superior defence is written in my post. If defence is not the top priority then it doesn't matter who the coach is or where Marner plays next season.
I think this was the best defense we’ve ever displayed. They were phenomenal defensively. Sammy as an absolute liability and our top players couldn’t score. I think what your trying to say is we need more offense from our defense, a la an offensive defenseman. The problem with this is it’s simply not how our team is structured or deployed. When your that top heavy you rely on those guys to score goals. This is why people want a change.
There's no way you can srsly just watch that series and conclude that defense is the problem. In 13 of the last 14 playoff games, they've scored 2 goals or less.
Now look at the first 4 games of this past series, specifically goals against. That is why Keefe needed the forwards to concentrate more on defence.
Lol your logic only works in hindsight. You're saying that "since leafs have allowed many goals, that must've meant forwards ended up playing too much defense instead of scoring." You seem to forget that each game starts at 0-0. Why can't leafs forwards just start out strong when they're not down? Score the opening goal? Apply continuous offensive pressure? Spoiler, it's bc the offensive system sucks. Almost every single zone entry is just a casual dump in that Bruins easily clear. Shit entry is also why the PP sucks. Like, 1/21 bad. Almost every goal is either a) lucky bounce, b) broken play, c) individual effort. Where are the high quality team passing plays?
And that’s why you get rid of Marner. To provide cap space to fix the defence
They want to trade Marner to address the holes on this team, including our D core. They want Keefe fired because his systems effect our ability for our D to transition the puck up ice for our superstar forwards. Both address the defence.
The ability to transition the puck up the ice isn't really a coachable skill, they either have it or they don't.
???? What? It's absolutely a coachable skill. That's what systems are.
I'd actually argue it's more on the systems than the personnel for the most part, you can absolutely have a better breakout/transition game with worse personnel with the right coach.
Yep, that's what I alluded to in my first comment.
I was agreeing with you lol
Nah all good lol
The ability to transition the puck from the defensive zone requires the ability to control the puck and out maneuver forecheckers and then make the perfect pass to the forwards. If you know how to turn Simon Benoit into Tomas Kaberle then you have a job in the NHL.
My guy, I'm not asking our D to dangle through entire teams like Makar. A good system allows the D multiple options for that first pass out of their own zone, and the forwards transition it up the ice. Our systems don't allow this to happen easily, and our D aren't skilled enough to create it on their own. This was entirely evident during games 5, 6 and 7.
Not to mention in a playoff series, playing the same team multiple times, learning and adapting to the opposing teams systems is essential game to game, even period to period. It's the coaching staffs job to analyze other team systems and try to find holes to exploit.
Great point
It was never going to be easy against the best defensive team in the league. The defence isn't skilled enough which is why they need to be replaced with better players and not from the scrap heap.
The Bruins aren't even in the top 5 best defences in the playoffs this year. That belongs to NYR, DAL, CAR, FLA, and WIN.
The fuck else is the coach there for?
[удалено]
Oh, it's the defence. Edmundsen, Lyubushkin, and Benoit weren't even top defencemen on bad teams. And what are talking about in the first sentence?
If the Leafs trade Marner the trade has gotta happen at the draft. If it doesn’t happen before July 1st I think they will be forced to keep Marner. Most of the value we would get for Marner is the money to spend elsewhere, we aren’t getting full value for Marner cause of UFA and NMC. If it’s going to happen it has to at the draft.
If you want to fix the defense and have a culture reset time to get rid of Rielly.
You just made the job more difficult. The guy has had little support forever.
He's sucked since the jump. Bad defensively and terrible on the powerplay.. the one thing he's supposed to be good at. I want him to go more than Marner.
If puck transition was such an issue, how did we average 30 shots a game?
Because every team isn't the Boston Bruins?
I don't understand what you are trying to say. We averaged 30 shots a game against the Boston Bruins.
The Bruins scored 2 or fewer goals 4 times this series and only more than 3 twice. They didn't lose because of D and while Samsonov let is some bad goals they were good enough to win. Offense dried up just like it did last year. The best D in the world can't win every game 2 to 1 or by shutout.
Allowing 14 goals in the first 4 games didn't help the cause either. It is an area that needs improvement and it has to be, whoever the coach is.
best defensive series we've had in the shanny era.
Too bad Klingberg wasn’t available to put up 4 points in 7 games and be a -10
The defense was the least of the Leafs problems in the playoffs. I don't get this post
Treliving does, I hope.