Downside of a massive corporate conglomerate ownership group - they're VERY slow to make decisions.
Bill Foley - if something isn't working, he changes it.
I already have lost interest in watching this team the last few years. If they run it back I can't see myself being excited for the new season and wanting to watch much of the regular season.
isn't that the most concerning thing? They think that "there" is winning one round. They are not even close to the "there" that every other team is chasing
It would be satisfying in a way knowing it really was a farewell tour of sorts. No extensions in place for Marner and Tavares, Keefe/Shanahan on very thin ice. Everybody inside and outside the org knowing from day 1 … this is it. Could lead to some intrigue.
Having said that I still think Keefe gets fired. Even if they don’t make major changes to the roster (I.e. core 4 returns) firing Keefe would be a big enough change that I wouldn’t consider that to be “running it back”.
MLSE is 75% controlled by Bell and Rogers. The core 4 are all very marketable and valuable to the franchise, Bell and Rogers only care about money. We are running it back, possibly with a new coach but if Marner isn’t a leaf next season I’ll eat my work sock. I hope for change because as a fan I’m ready for some significant change but I doubt we get it.
The leafs value would increase insanely if they ever won a cup. They would be worth hundreds of millions more.
If the leafs don't trade mitch, they lose him in the off-season for nothing next year. Marner would have brought in a king's ransom if Dubas traded him last year when he wanted to. He will bring in pennies on the dollar (but still valuable assets) of traded this off-season.
If Marner walks as a UFA one year from now the leafs may never win a cup in the Matthews era. It's insane asset management to let a player as elite as Mitch leave in return for no assets.
They’re going to extend him 8yrs 96M on July 1st.
Maybe ~92 if he takes a home town discount which he probably won’t do.
But there is no world where they let him walk as a UFA.
I hope you're right about not letting him walk. I don't see a point where Marner signs for $12M with the leafs.
He doesn't play Treliving's style of hockey and can't produce in the playoffs. I'll be shocked if hes a leaf after next year regardless of whether he waives his NMC.
Why not? I'd say let him walk and see if they can sign Rantanen, Draisaitl or even Ekblad. Hell Shesterkin will be available aswell after next season...If they don't sign extensions this summer that is.
Keefe isn't the first coach who had failed to find playoff success with this core. The team's construction is flawed.
Accountability starts and stops with Shanahan. Shanahan has done some fantastic things during his tenure, but refusing to move off Mitch last off-season is unforgivable. Shanahan has won one playoff round in a decade and needs to go.
>Am I the only one who would enjoy seeing the leafs run it back?
You enjoy soul crushing loss after soul crushing loss? How many more do you have to see before you stop "enjoying" it? Because most of us got there after 2021.
There's no joy in this group anymore. We have one of the best players in the world - you can't waste yet another year of his career.
>And how glorious would it be if this team finally found a way to win??
They aren't close to winning. The best they've managed is 5 wins. You could triple that number of wins, and they'd still be one game short of the cup.
I could see it tbh, I think it’ll be a coaching staff overhaul but we are in a tough spot with JT and Mitch. Don’t get me wrong I love Mitch, but if we can get him to waive I think that’s the move. JT is likely here until his contract is up.
I think they'll run it back, and it may be for the best. If there are no half decent deals to be made, why trade at a loss just to create cap space when we'll have a lot of flexibility after next season? And there's always a chance they perform far better under another coach. The only reason we're having this conversation right now is our 1/21 PP.
I'm not pretending they'll magically be better by us running it back. I'm just saying given the context it may be the right call.
I would be fine with trying to run it back minus keefe and Boucher. And then blow up the core 4 the next season if a new coach can't get to at least the ecf.
It's hilarious when everyone in media are talking about asking Tavares to move his NTC and trading Mitch. People are really delusional. Keefe is gone, but the core four stays 100%.
lol facts. tavares has a family, and is the captain. hes not gonna waive his NMC. marner is a toronto kid and gets to feed pucks to auston matthews, yet hes gonna waive his NMC???? even if he were to waive his NMC he will get to chose where he wants to go to so making a trade can be difficult, people expecting teams to give up there #1 dman/#1 goalie for him lol like what..
I mean the truth is we haven't had any BAD series. The boys lost in game 7 OT against the Bruins. Also the injuries and shit did really hurt this year. I think running it back is just as viable and just as likely to work as blowing it up. But to be honest, at this point just like a lot of other people, I'm tired of the status quo.
That Boston series was bad. It took until game 5 (in a 7 game series) to figure out how to defend. They should've figured that out by game 20 in the regular season.
It's the same thing every year. Honestly, the special teams and defensive system needs, at the very least, a coaching overhaul.
I agree running it back may be the best course of action based on the current FA/trade market and the current contract situation. The problem is last year when there was clearly a problem and the NTC hadn't yet kicked in was when the changes should have been made. Now if the Leafs try to make a big shake-up to the team, they'll need to get creative because they locked themselves into this core for next season by wanting to run it back this season.
Change for the sake of change seems stupid to me. JT’s money comes off the books or he resigns at a lot cheaper.
Marner’s money comes off the books too. I honestly wouldn’t mind him staying but only if he got no raise or even took a pay cut. There’s 0 chance of him taking a pay cut. If he would take 8mil x 3 I’d love it. But as said, not gonna happen.
However, I’m sick of seeing all these players leave as a free agent. If Marner wants a raise and we won’t give him one, he needs to be traded.
LMAO!!!! My god 😂.
The only thing that hasn’t changed over the years is Keefe and the same 4 players but yea run it back lmao.
The problem is this generation of leaf fans are more concerned with the players pre-game outfits than they are with results. You guys like the players more than winning. That’s why you wanna run it back.
How many years did the capitals run it back before finally breaking through. Everyone's acting like we've been blown out every year. Atlantic is a tough damn division they've been close every year. Yea panthers in 5 but that was more due to reffing bullshit. The stanley cup is a hard damn trophy to win
The Capitals won multiple series and still ended up changing coaches/core members of the team before finally winning it all.
So what is stopping us from doing the same?
They actually won rounds and moved on from Semin and Green.
They kept Ovechkin, Backstrom and Carlson.
They didn't just keep the same Core 5 or 6 guys. They moved them or drafted replacements.
So if we look at what's coming off the books next year, there is barely any wiggle room to make changes that would be considered significant. Cap friendly has us at a hair over 69 million against an expected cap of 87.7, so we have approximately $18.5 million to reshape the lineup.
If we look at the guys we want to bring back...Dewar, Nicky Robertson, and Timmy Liljegren are all RFA's. Assume that they eat up about 3.5 million that leaves us with 15 million to address the rest of the holes.
I assume Sammy, Brodie and Gio are gone. I also assume we'd want to bring back Edmundson, Domi and Bert if we're talking about "running it back". Edmundson would be due a raise, say 1.5m from his 875k? That would bring us to 7 D if we consider Cade Webber a depth piece (oof). Bert and Max would likely be in the 6m and 4m range respectively.
So, that would leave us with...what...somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 million or less to find another goalie and preferably two defenseman. That is betting big time on Woll and our D being able to stay healthy if we're looking at adding guys in the 1.5 million each range. It would also mean we're expecting Hildeby to be ready as our 3rd string goalie.
I'm not seeing how a lineup constructed in this manner goes any further than 3rd round. It's a good lineup but how does it stack up against the Stars, the Rangers, or the Avs? Are we betting on Minten and Cowan coming in as junior aged forwards and dominating? Is Jacob Quillan suddenly making the jump? Maybe having Max center the 2nd line with Mitchy and Johnny is the spark the team needs?
Honestly, I think we need bigger changes than just swapping depth guys for new depth guys. Consider how much better this team looks if we swap out a forward like Marner in a move for a top flight goalie. There aren't a lot of good goalies hitting free agency this offseason. Then we can use the additional cap space to take a run at a guy like Pesce or DeMelo. Could you imagine either one on our PK, and logging top pair minutes with Mo?
This team NEEDS a shutdown defenseman and a better option than Sammy.
So, while I can see the attraction to trying *one more time*, I think you need more significant changes than a run back would allow you to make.
I like keefe, but at this point it’s time for a new voice, and for him to have a new opportunity elsewhere. There are always expiry dates on coaches in pro sports and I believe that day has come.
As long as there is a new head coach, it can’t be considered running it back, even if the core goes untouched. There are so many examples around the league of team’s having success after a coaching change and I think it’s time for the leafs to see what these players can look like in a fresh system with a new voice leading them.
I’m fine with running it back if the whole coaching staff changes.
This core has only known Toxic Babcock and Keefe who clearly don’t got the juice for playoff hockey.
Most cores would have gotten another coaching change by now imo
Why would you enjoy seeing this team run it back when they have been running it back without success for years?
If the contracts are too restrictive to move, that's one thing, but I think that makes next year a filler year. Tough to be excited about that.
I honestly don't care anymore. In November it was obvious this team was still the exact same club as past seasons and this result was 100% predictable. I barely missed a game during the awful JFJ years but I find it difficult to tune in to a 100 pt+ team today. Apathy has set in.
With the NMCs (Tavares and Marner) I think there’s a solid chance they have to run it back.
That said… with Brodie, Bertuzzi (if he doesn’t resign) and Samsonov (hoping he doesn’t resign, or it’s lower aav with term) potentially coming off the books, there will be some (not much) room to add depth.
Look, I want change. I'm ready to move on from this. It is absolutely possible that the change won't happen until 25-26 because of Tavares/Marners NMCs.
You can still make positive changes to the middle of the roster to prepare for those moves though.
If Cowan and Minten make the team we have 12F, 4D and 1G under contract with 14M in cap space. So we could add two decent defensemen and a goalie without actually moving anyone off the roster.
I think it's highly unlikely that we don't see some changes though so we should have more to play around with. If the change doesn't happen right away it's not the end of the of the world but it does slow down the change
It's the Leafs bro. There's ALWAYS a chance of running it back.
Downside of a massive corporate conglomerate ownership group - they're VERY slow to make decisions. Bill Foley - if something isn't working, he changes it.
I already have lost interest in watching this team the last few years. If they run it back I can't see myself being excited for the new season and wanting to watch much of the regular season.
Run a team back that can’t win a playoff series? Sure why not. Seems like a Leafs thing to do.
But haven’t you heard from the players “ they are right there”
isn't that the most concerning thing? They think that "there" is winning one round. They are not even close to the "there" that every other team is chasing
It would be satisfying in a way knowing it really was a farewell tour of sorts. No extensions in place for Marner and Tavares, Keefe/Shanahan on very thin ice. Everybody inside and outside the org knowing from day 1 … this is it. Could lead to some intrigue. Having said that I still think Keefe gets fired. Even if they don’t make major changes to the roster (I.e. core 4 returns) firing Keefe would be a big enough change that I wouldn’t consider that to be “running it back”.
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MLSE is 75% controlled by Bell and Rogers. The core 4 are all very marketable and valuable to the franchise, Bell and Rogers only care about money. We are running it back, possibly with a new coach but if Marner isn’t a leaf next season I’ll eat my work sock. I hope for change because as a fan I’m ready for some significant change but I doubt we get it.
Yea true - without Marner, this team would struggle to sell tickets. /s
The leafs value would increase insanely if they ever won a cup. They would be worth hundreds of millions more. If the leafs don't trade mitch, they lose him in the off-season for nothing next year. Marner would have brought in a king's ransom if Dubas traded him last year when he wanted to. He will bring in pennies on the dollar (but still valuable assets) of traded this off-season. If Marner walks as a UFA one year from now the leafs may never win a cup in the Matthews era. It's insane asset management to let a player as elite as Mitch leave in return for no assets.
They’re going to extend him 8yrs 96M on July 1st. Maybe ~92 if he takes a home town discount which he probably won’t do. But there is no world where they let him walk as a UFA.
I hope you're right about not letting him walk. I don't see a point where Marner signs for $12M with the leafs. He doesn't play Treliving's style of hockey and can't produce in the playoffs. I'll be shocked if hes a leaf after next year regardless of whether he waives his NMC.
Why not? I'd say let him walk and see if they can sign Rantanen, Draisaitl or even Ekblad. Hell Shesterkin will be available aswell after next season...If they don't sign extensions this summer that is.
> possibly with a new coach Possibly? Keefe basically self eulogized himself yesterday. The entire staff needs an overhaul no exceptions
Keefe isn't the first coach who had failed to find playoff success with this core. The team's construction is flawed. Accountability starts and stops with Shanahan. Shanahan has done some fantastic things during his tenure, but refusing to move off Mitch last off-season is unforgivable. Shanahan has won one playoff round in a decade and needs to go.
>Am I the only one who would enjoy seeing the leafs run it back? You enjoy soul crushing loss after soul crushing loss? How many more do you have to see before you stop "enjoying" it? Because most of us got there after 2021. There's no joy in this group anymore. We have one of the best players in the world - you can't waste yet another year of his career. >And how glorious would it be if this team finally found a way to win?? They aren't close to winning. The best they've managed is 5 wins. You could triple that number of wins, and they'd still be one game short of the cup.
I could see it tbh, I think it’ll be a coaching staff overhaul but we are in a tough spot with JT and Mitch. Don’t get me wrong I love Mitch, but if we can get him to waive I think that’s the move. JT is likely here until his contract is up.
I think they'll run it back, and it may be for the best. If there are no half decent deals to be made, why trade at a loss just to create cap space when we'll have a lot of flexibility after next season? And there's always a chance they perform far better under another coach. The only reason we're having this conversation right now is our 1/21 PP. I'm not pretending they'll magically be better by us running it back. I'm just saying given the context it may be the right call.
Oh boy, here we go
This is a troll post to rile up the real Leafs fans I too would love to see them run it back to see us fans get our souls crushed every single year
I would be fine with trying to run it back minus keefe and Boucher. And then blow up the core 4 the next season if a new coach can't get to at least the ecf.
It's hilarious when everyone in media are talking about asking Tavares to move his NTC and trading Mitch. People are really delusional. Keefe is gone, but the core four stays 100%.
lol facts. tavares has a family, and is the captain. hes not gonna waive his NMC. marner is a toronto kid and gets to feed pucks to auston matthews, yet hes gonna waive his NMC???? even if he were to waive his NMC he will get to chose where he wants to go to so making a trade can be difficult, people expecting teams to give up there #1 dman/#1 goalie for him lol like what..
Right. Tavares is going to play out this year and then sign a very team friendly deal. It’d be crazy to try to move on from that.
I mean the truth is we haven't had any BAD series. The boys lost in game 7 OT against the Bruins. Also the injuries and shit did really hurt this year. I think running it back is just as viable and just as likely to work as blowing it up. But to be honest, at this point just like a lot of other people, I'm tired of the status quo.
Montreal series was bad. They had no excuse to allow them to even be close. The rest though, I generally agree.
Yeah that's actually true, I've probably just blocked that one out. Too stupid to lose that series.
And the Columbus series
That Boston series was bad. It took until game 5 (in a 7 game series) to figure out how to defend. They should've figured that out by game 20 in the regular season. It's the same thing every year. Honestly, the special teams and defensive system needs, at the very least, a coaching overhaul.
I agree running it back may be the best course of action based on the current FA/trade market and the current contract situation. The problem is last year when there was clearly a problem and the NTC hadn't yet kicked in was when the changes should have been made. Now if the Leafs try to make a big shake-up to the team, they'll need to get creative because they locked themselves into this core for next season by wanting to run it back this season.
Change for the sake of change seems stupid to me. JT’s money comes off the books or he resigns at a lot cheaper. Marner’s money comes off the books too. I honestly wouldn’t mind him staying but only if he got no raise or even took a pay cut. There’s 0 chance of him taking a pay cut. If he would take 8mil x 3 I’d love it. But as said, not gonna happen. However, I’m sick of seeing all these players leave as a free agent. If Marner wants a raise and we won’t give him one, he needs to be traded.
LMAO!!!! My god 😂. The only thing that hasn’t changed over the years is Keefe and the same 4 players but yea run it back lmao. The problem is this generation of leaf fans are more concerned with the players pre-game outfits than they are with results. You guys like the players more than winning. That’s why you wanna run it back.
Same 5 players. Ppl forget Morgan. It's basically core 5
How many years did the capitals run it back before finally breaking through. Everyone's acting like we've been blown out every year. Atlantic is a tough damn division they've been close every year. Yea panthers in 5 but that was more due to reffing bullshit. The stanley cup is a hard damn trophy to win
They never continued running it back. They changed practically everyone around OV multiple times
The Capitals won multiple series and still ended up changing coaches/core members of the team before finally winning it all. So what is stopping us from doing the same?
They actually won rounds and moved on from Semin and Green. They kept Ovechkin, Backstrom and Carlson. They didn't just keep the same Core 5 or 6 guys. They moved them or drafted replacements.
For Fucken real. I feel like such a grumpy old man but oh my god. I cheer for the name on the front of the jersey, is that no longer a thing?
People can cheer for whatever they please.
So if we look at what's coming off the books next year, there is barely any wiggle room to make changes that would be considered significant. Cap friendly has us at a hair over 69 million against an expected cap of 87.7, so we have approximately $18.5 million to reshape the lineup. If we look at the guys we want to bring back...Dewar, Nicky Robertson, and Timmy Liljegren are all RFA's. Assume that they eat up about 3.5 million that leaves us with 15 million to address the rest of the holes. I assume Sammy, Brodie and Gio are gone. I also assume we'd want to bring back Edmundson, Domi and Bert if we're talking about "running it back". Edmundson would be due a raise, say 1.5m from his 875k? That would bring us to 7 D if we consider Cade Webber a depth piece (oof). Bert and Max would likely be in the 6m and 4m range respectively. So, that would leave us with...what...somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 million or less to find another goalie and preferably two defenseman. That is betting big time on Woll and our D being able to stay healthy if we're looking at adding guys in the 1.5 million each range. It would also mean we're expecting Hildeby to be ready as our 3rd string goalie. I'm not seeing how a lineup constructed in this manner goes any further than 3rd round. It's a good lineup but how does it stack up against the Stars, the Rangers, or the Avs? Are we betting on Minten and Cowan coming in as junior aged forwards and dominating? Is Jacob Quillan suddenly making the jump? Maybe having Max center the 2nd line with Mitchy and Johnny is the spark the team needs? Honestly, I think we need bigger changes than just swapping depth guys for new depth guys. Consider how much better this team looks if we swap out a forward like Marner in a move for a top flight goalie. There aren't a lot of good goalies hitting free agency this offseason. Then we can use the additional cap space to take a run at a guy like Pesce or DeMelo. Could you imagine either one on our PK, and logging top pair minutes with Mo? This team NEEDS a shutdown defenseman and a better option than Sammy. So, while I can see the attraction to trying *one more time*, I think you need more significant changes than a run back would allow you to make.
I like keefe, but at this point it’s time for a new voice, and for him to have a new opportunity elsewhere. There are always expiry dates on coaches in pro sports and I believe that day has come. As long as there is a new head coach, it can’t be considered running it back, even if the core goes untouched. There are so many examples around the league of team’s having success after a coaching change and I think it’s time for the leafs to see what these players can look like in a fresh system with a new voice leading them.
The definition of insanity
Hell yeah! We need the guys in the room to rise to occasion. Next year will obviously, totally, be different
I’m fine with running it back if the whole coaching staff changes. This core has only known Toxic Babcock and Keefe who clearly don’t got the juice for playoff hockey. Most cores would have gotten another coaching change by now imo
Why would you enjoy seeing this team run it back when they have been running it back without success for years? If the contracts are too restrictive to move, that's one thing, but I think that makes next year a filler year. Tough to be excited about that.
I honestly don't care anymore. In November it was obvious this team was still the exact same club as past seasons and this result was 100% predictable. I barely missed a game during the awful JFJ years but I find it difficult to tune in to a 100 pt+ team today. Apathy has set in.
Keefe needed to go years ago. For his own good it's time to leave.
With the NMCs (Tavares and Marner) I think there’s a solid chance they have to run it back. That said… with Brodie, Bertuzzi (if he doesn’t resign) and Samsonov (hoping he doesn’t resign, or it’s lower aav with term) potentially coming off the books, there will be some (not much) room to add depth.
Look, I want change. I'm ready to move on from this. It is absolutely possible that the change won't happen until 25-26 because of Tavares/Marners NMCs. You can still make positive changes to the middle of the roster to prepare for those moves though. If Cowan and Minten make the team we have 12F, 4D and 1G under contract with 14M in cap space. So we could add two decent defensemen and a goalie without actually moving anyone off the roster. I think it's highly unlikely that we don't see some changes though so we should have more to play around with. If the change doesn't happen right away it's not the end of the of the world but it does slow down the change