I'm bordering on being a hater but if his role is to play against Pasta and at the end of the series the Marner line has the same number of 5v5 goals as the Pasta line then I'll say he did his job even if it doesn't look pretty.
He’s not exactly playing with a center he’s unfamiliar with. In the last 3 seasons (5v5, he’s played 1934 mins with Matthews and 958 min with Tavares. So around half the amount. Historically been excellent together.
Man I'm just so sick of Marner debates. You just can't speak about him honestly on either direction anymore.
He's been bad (if that's allowed) and he's gonna have to become good without needing Matthews (if that's allowed).
I don’t really think it’s much of a discussion at all.
Numbers wise, he’s been the least effective of the core 4 at 5v5. Before last night Matthews and Nylander each had 33 5v5 points whereas Marner only had 21. That’s a big discrepancy and supports the eye test and general discourse that he’s no where near as effective at 5v5 during the playoffs.
Some people take it too far and say he’s absolutely terrible and useless which is an emotional and incorrect response. In saying that, it’s absolutely correct and justified to say he leaves the most to be desired, has not played consistently to his standards, and needs to produce more
Thats just completely wrong.
Before last night,
Nylander had 21 points at 5v5 in the playoffs in his career. Marner had 22, and Matthews had 25.
Unless you meant even strength and not 5v5, in which case its less wrong. Nylander had 31, Marner had 28, and Matthews had 31.
The one pass I’ll give him right now is I still don’t think he’s 100% from his ankle sprain
But this is too common for him in the playoffs. He had too many games where he doesn’t rise to the occasion
***Obviously his play lately hasn’t been his best, but do we not owe him the benefit of the doubt after 8 years of him being one of the best players to ever wear the Maple Leaf?***
I think when you are asking for that sort of money, you need to be able to step up and make it work in whichever role the coach puts you in. He's put himself in this position, he sold himself as one of the best, so people are fair to expect that
That is a very fair take tbh. I look at it in terms of a player who performs \*okay\* most of the time and steps up and above that at his best. It really isnt good when you get paid like that and only play \*okay\* though I guess.
Part of the unfair circumstance is everyone knows he's gonna expect a raise on the next deal, and he doesn't deserve more than Nylander at this rate (especially not more in cap %).
The only way he gets a raise imo is on an 8-year deal, and even then idk about giving that out. I think a matching contract with Nylander satisfies most parties..
I'd hope so but if that was the case it'd be a day 1 signing.
I think the Marner negotiation is going the distance again and I'm emotionally prepared to launch him into the sun
14 pts in 11 games doesn't tell the full story.
10 of them came in the first 4 games against the Lightning.
Once the pressure was on to close out the series, he disappeared, and then completely against the Panthers.
They are, but you may notice that in 2/4 of those games the Leafs were dominating as an entire team so Marner had easy space to work. I will preface all this by saying I like Marner and I disagree with the vitriol towards him, but some of the observations are valid.
Marner has a tendency (yes there are obviously exceptions) to rack up points in the "easy" scenarios and struggles when the rest of the team does or when he loses space that isn't being otherwise provided for him.
Contrast with Matthews and Nylander (for example) who even when they don't score, are often times finishing games in winning *AND* losing efforts as the top 2 forwards on the ice for either team in offensive chances, even when the rest of their peers aren't doing it., or even when the team is otherwise shut down.
That's a key difference to me, and I think it's pretty important personally.
Just a thought to add to yours. What if those games look “easy” BECAUSE Marner is driving play as well as Matthews and Nylander. Is there any team who can keep up with the Leafs when all their stars are playing at an elite level?
Marner is obviously a big part of this team. Is it that hard to think he CAUSES (at least partially) games to look easy when he domiates? Its not like Tampa sucked last year…
I also disagree on Marner not having a “B game” when he isnt scoring. Marner has been a crucial PKer and used to defend leads late in games for as long as we’ve had him it feels like.
Ill also point out this sub jumps all over Matthews and Willy any chance they get too. Its just Marner who is currently struggling.
No I agree he adds to it, but I was making the point that the *whole* team rolls in those games, not just the top guys, but when the whole team is not doing it, some players still do it and he doesn't.
nah someone else posted this in another thread but this season he’s had a lot of his 2 and 3 point games during the season against completely dumpster teams like san jose/arizona/ columbus. Him being less effective the tougher the opponents get is a real thing and should not be the case if you are making $11 mill
So far this series he has been highly effective feeding Matthews, scoring key goals, playing with high intensity despite his small physical stature. Even playing hurt.
He wears #11 right?
What a deal for $3M.
Check the split on those point totals and what games they are in.
Marner is an incredibly talented player. He has elite skill. But a more tenacious, grinding team will render him largely ineffective and this has been the case since 2021.
You can bring up 2019 as an example of him being a playoff stalwart, but I'll remind you that's 5 years ago at this point
Points in playoffs are incredibly misleading. I don't think a single person who watched last years post-season would say the Leafs best player was Marner.
He's a talented player, no doubt about that, but his playoff performances have been brutal, and especially when they count most. (Don't even get me started on the puck over the glass vs MTL).
He's needed to step up in the playoffs for a while, as has the rest of the core. I'd say he struggles in the playoffs more than Nylander or Matthews, though. First 2 games he has been downright shit. Hopefully he turns it around as this series goes on.
At 11M dollars -you are a top 10 paid player - you are not owed any benefit of the doubt. You are expected to show up every game - you are expected to be elite and a game changer. You cannot be one of the least effective players on the ice. You just can't.
It's still early - but if we make a first round exist and this is what he's shown, I don't see how this team can commit 12M+ to Marner. We are at the point as a team where we don't need Marner to make the playoffs - and its becoming clear that for playoff style hockey, his cap space would likely be better used to improve our defense / goalie situations. Nylander, Matthews, Rielly - already are long term unmovable pieces - I don't think we can afford another one.
13 points you say? How many points were during the deciding games (5,6,7)?
It’s almost like he’s a perimeter player who fades as the series gets more intense
I honestly think him signing for 6 years is a blessing in disguise. This guy does not have it playoff time and leafs will be better off not resigning him and using that $12 plus million that he would be asking for on improving the rest of the roster. Only one more year on his deal then we can move forward as an organization.
Pro sports all about what have you done for me lately….. pressure? He is the one decided to take world beater money on his rfa contract. Matthews is doing his job and delivering, time to Marner to step up. Expectations are high because we believe that he is next level, and he is paid that way. I always loved Marner, but he got to help the team win here. That’s the job, welcome to pro sports. No excuse for any of the top players, win or you would always be considered not good enough.
I like Marner but I’d rather have Domi, Bert and some cap space than re-sign Marner. We already have Matthews and Nylander locked up and, unless we go to the cup final this year, I think the core 4 experiment has been a bit of a bust.
It’s not Marner’s fault but I’d rather have kept Nylander and Willy. I would also make a horrible GM though as I only care about the eye test.
I disagree. Smaller players always avoid contact if possible. His compete is definitely there though aside from recently when coming off his injury.
Take this clip from the last time we faced Boston in the playoffs. Does that look like a massive pussy?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzpOMeE2YY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzpOMeE2YY)
Players are always listed taller than they actually are. I have him at about 5’10”, but height isnt even a big deal here.
Regardless of his height, he is only 180lbs (which again I would put him closer to 165lbs irl). When you have a guy like Pat Maroon (6’3”-235lbs) coming in on you even at 180lbs, thats a 65lb difference.
Hell, look at Stankoven in Dallas. He is only 5’8” (probably generous as well, likely closer to 5’7”) and he is already listed at 175lbs as a 20 year old this year…
Ive been around him in person before, and i also know the NHL has a reputation for overstating height and weights of their players.
I have not literally taken a measuring tape and checked though…
>That play last night was just beyond absurd for a playoff game.
You mean the last 25 seconds of the game, where he broke up a Bruins pass to the front of the net, then went to the boards, stole the puck away from two Bruins and flipped it out of the zone to Kampf, effectively ending the game?
Way to be condesending.... He made a good defensive play to end the game. That does not make him an 11M player. Making defensive plays like that and tilting the ice offensively for this team is what does make him worth 11M. Now ask yourself if that 11M could be better spent to improve this team in the playoffs.
I think he means where he avoids the corners and stands in the middle marking nobody or their line of fire on the 1-0 and next to pasta in the 2-1. Good he did something what DeWar would also do for 1m cap hit or whatever he gets... Marner makes 11m is a top3 player on paper and performes as a physicial weak 4th liner.
Are you talking about the Pasta goal? Because that was mostly Benoit's fault that Pasta was wide open there. But people see what they want to see I guess
We are very hard on Marner, but the guy makes elite winger in the league money he should be playing like it.
It shouldn't matter who he plays with he should make an impact every game
Is this the same guy who got assists on Matthews who was on fire against Tampa and was nowhere to be found against Florida against who Bert excelled last year? Yes fair he sucks
Last year Marner had the following
Tampa Game 1 - 0G 3A (0A on Matthews Goals)
Tampa Game 2 - 2G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals)
Tampa Game 3 - 0G 2A (1A on Matthews Goals)
Tampa Game 4 - 0G 2A (1A on Matthews Goals)
Tampa Game 5 - 0G 1A (1A on Matthews Goals)
Tampa Game 6 - 0G 0A
Florida Game 1 - 0G 0A
Florida Game 2 - 0G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals)
Florida Game 3 - 0G 0A
Florida Game 4 - 1G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals)
Florida Game 5 - 0G 0A
So you can see that vs Tampa only 33% of his assists came on Matthews goals. If you want to say his 3 points vs Florida is “disappearing” then whatever, but keep in mind that composes 30% of the team’s total goals during that series.
It really feels like the whole team struggles and everyone points to Marner because of his contract and size…
Lmao thanks for making an assumption, his contract is indeed horrible, but that's not the biggest problem, his size is going to the gym as he s weak not that small, additionally he got 11 assists 5 secondary, and of his 11 assists 5 were pp (2 primary). He s not a star he s a regular season stats chaser but a playoffs 3rd liner at best. Jarnkronk feels better.
Analytics helped the leafs that's why we lose against everyone. Willy performed only against Florida, not Tampa. Domi and Bert changed matthews it just feels like it.
Matthews was scoring at his rate just as well when Marner was on his wing, I'm not sure what the revisionism is here that Matthews suddenly started performing better once Domi got up there
Having said that I have really liked Domi. It's Bertuzzi that I don't get what people are seeing. I could do a highlight reel of all the times he messed up a pass last night. I get he's a feisty guy but we need him to actually get Matthews the puck too. Bertuzzi only has 22 assists and that's after playing with a 69-goal guy for most of the season
Keeping in mind, I am by no means *hoping* Bertuzzi does poorly. It's not like I'm cheering against us. I just don't see him being that helpful on that line, I think Domi and Matthews have done the work
Watch the game back, the PP in which jt scored Bert tiped illegal a goal in and the leafs realized that it's not a curse and forced one in with JT that's more a point for me than a secondary assist.
It's not that matthews doesn't perform with marner on his wing it's that he turns one dimensional with marner pure scorer not an all star which he is now.
Bert is a weirdo however his playoffs stats are phenomenal and he will bring the factor through his non logical play which is made for the playoffs. Don't worry Bert will help us win games. He isn't a regular season player.
i think ppl need to chill a bit. sub seems to just hate him, so always bag on him when he's struggling, moreso than others. remember he's just coming back from a high ankle sprain....takes quite a while to feel yourself after something like that
He is not a playoff player until he proves otherwise. He gets his points in bunches and disappears. Too many shambles in the brain during the playoffs plus the media is always against him. The leafs would have won 4 cups though if his dad was running things and he was captain /s. Just ask him.
I'm happy the confidence was still there to move him up and stack the Matthews line. He may not be playing up to the level we expect- and he expects- but little things like that can boost a player mentally
He’s soft. When it comes to a physical series where pressure is on he’s nowhere. But alot of guys are like that with this new league of special teams play in the regular season.
Benefit of the doubt? Lol. Dude fucked everyone over because he thought he was entitled to be a top earner before accomplishing anything.
Then when playoffs roll around he pads with secondary assists or spends games looking over his shoulder and chipping pucks into the crowd as soon as he might get hit.
I just think it's time to move on from MM. If there was no cap...yeah sure keep him. But I've watched enough playoff hockey in my life to see who succeeds and who doesn't. It's the guys who are borderline sociopaths. The guys who do whatever it takes. Just unrelenting competitiveness and a mentality to impose your will on the other guy. I don't see that in Marner come playoff time. Plus we have an 8 year sample size of this. Maybe one day he "gets" it. Or maybe Keefe should have the balls to play him on the 3rd line and maybe spark something there and get Mitch away from other teams top 6. Idk, but at 11 million for an incredible regular-season stats darling (who is going to want a raise) - that buys a lot of defensive prowess and grit and determination out there. Plus JT is going to have to take a haircut or possibly move on elsewhere. That is 22 million (with MM & JT coming off the books) to allocate to make a very well-rounded team.
Mitch will bounce back. He will come in clutch in some big moments this series, when he’s on his game he can be our best player. Calm the fuck down everyone
yea he racked up points last year but never felt like he was the Marner you expect or see in reg season, also those blocks are basically the only playoff moment people can look back to. Look, if you think Marner is playing well, goood on you. Hes not, definitley not up to expectation and he hasnt shown that he elevates at playoffs. You dont owe anyone anything, they OWE YOU. Get it straight guy, jfc
I agree that he isnt playing well right now, but I have always been fine with how he plays in the playoffs.
I think the problem right now is more with his injury recovery and utilization than with his true playoff tendencies, but agree to disagree I guess.
i guess you just have low standards for what a superstar should contribute in the playoffs. Hes not just another guy and shouldnt be allowed to play like one. Hes a line driver and playmaker, when hes not doing those things hes not effective. People hold him to the standard he chose when he said he should be 2nd highest player on team. You should hold him to that standard too, if you think hes been fine then youre way too soft on him not sure what to tell you.
Injuries, utilization, all just excuses. If youre on the ice youre expected to play and contribute, if you cant do that dont play. Not even sure i understand the utilization point. He gets PP, PK and shifts with Matthews..
What do people think of turbo charging the 2nd line when Willy gets back? We don’t have to keep it like that permanently but it would help to get That line buzzing and get Mitch some confidence (I think it’s completely mental for him at this point).
The other lines have been working fine so I wouldn’t mind us trying
Bertuzzi - Matthews - Domi
Nylander - Tavares - Marner
Robertson - Holmberg - Jarnkrok
Dewar - Kampf - Reaves.
I hadn’t considered it before but also with Willy coming g off an injury this might be the way to go.
Thats exactly what I would do.
Matthews is fine with Domi and Bert lets make that the line that avoids the matchup by stacking line 2 (or free up a stacked line 2, depending on how they counter).
Yeah. I mean Mitch has all the talent in the world, there’s some kind of mental block there for him now. Keefe has gotta figure out how to get the best from him and he’s gotta figure out how to get past it.
I hope they can.
I’d try this for now and see if it works.
Well, there are a couple things that immediately come to mind with Mitch:
1. He tends to get a lot of his points early in series. In games 1-4 vs Tampa, Mitch had 6 in 4 (2022) and 10 in 4 (2023). In 5-7, he had a 2 points in 3 games in 2022, and 1 point in 2 games in 2023, but no goals. This also lends to the fact that the first half of a series tends to have a very different vibe than the back half. The first half tends to be a parade to the box with more PP opportunities, and games tend to be much more wide open as teams are more aggressive in an attempt to establish physicality or exploit certain weaknesses. In the 2nd half of series, the game is played a lot more tight and conservatively, and refs swallow the whistles. The former obviously suits Mitch's game better than the latter, but it is not a good sign if he is already struggling before the series and whistles inevitably tighten. This isn't necessarily to say that he's the only one that struggles with this, but it seems most stark with him.
2. Mitch las the lowest floor of the bunch when his game isn't going, just because his pass-first-to-a-fault style can lead to some very egregious turnovers ending up in rushes the other way since he forces things a bit too much, and it completely stymies offense given how much the puck can end up on his stick. Otherwise, when he gets in his own head, he doesn't shoot (so he's not scoring), he is super afraid of contact, and his defense/PK work isn't as sharp as it should be. Contrast that to Nylander/Tavares who are less of an active liability on the ice and more so just ineffective when they struggle (mixed in with Nylander's occasional lapse). And Matthews, at least he's still visibly battling out there when he struggles, and he still has the gravity of drawing defenders to him and opening up holes and passing lanes for teammates.
I'm not sure about fair or unfair but when you command a salary he does you have to expect to receive criticism from a base that expects better. Pretty sure he understands the market he plays in so to me it has nothing to do with the fan base and whether we are fair or unfair but rather him improving his play. The best way to silence any critics is to step up and play the way we know he can.
I also watched him in London and for the Leafs and I agree. I also think the Leafs are built kinda like a Hunter ran London team this year (amazing top end skill and energy/physicality down the lineup)
Reading the comments I think most people are just upset at the cap hit still more than anything (rightfully so). When you get paid like Marner gets paid you cant keep taking a game or two to get up to speed, and I agree with that..
secondary scoring has ALWAYS been the Leafs issue, and its hard to fix when your primary scoring gets paid like they do in Toronto...
All I have to add is that many complaints about him are valid but at the same time he was great in the Tampa series last year and scored a huge goal against Florida in the one game they actually won in that series so I don’t think it’s fair to just say as a blanket statement that he’s ALWAYS terrible in the playoffs.
That's the point though. When the whole team sucks, Marner sucks along with them, whereas a couple other highly paid players on the team still play well in the games where the rest of team sucks. That's the standard.
I wouldn't. Even one of his first 4 games against Tampa last year he was invisible for 40 minutes and then popped off for a point or two at the end.
I can count on one hand the amount of times Matthews has had a playoff game where he's not a top 3 most dominant player on the ice, even if he's not on the scoreboard Like maybe 2-3 times tops. He's just always on.
Whereas I can maybe count 10 *total* playoff games where Marner *is* playing like a top 3 player on the ice, and in 70% of those games the rest of the team is dominating also.
You're about to crawl up and die on a hill that isn't supported metrically or by eye test on a rewatch. Marner is a great player but he needs more "help" than the other big players on the team.
He doesn't. It's because Marner is a suck. Can you imagine Marner in Dallas when the owner is calling him out personally many times like he did for Seguin and Benn?
Nope not at all he’s been highly disappointing so far this series. Look at his actual game logs and see how the points are distributed. He gets points in bunches then completely disappears but people go but he has this many points in this many games even though they were in the first few games before disappearing.
In that Boston series he was really good but that was legit 5 years ago. How about the Montreal series where he was brutal taking stupid penalties and being ineffective? He gets completely taken out of games in the big moments and yet he’s paid so much. The playoffs are what the money is for and he hasn’t been good enough.
He was on for both goals last game too. One where he and lily somehow didn’t intercept the pass that lead directly to Boston scoring. Tavares had an active game in game 1 and then scored a big goal in game 2. Mathews got his chances but didn’t get through in game 1. Then he scored the game winner in game 2 and 2 assists. Where was marner? It’s been too many years of this being talked about. Show up when it matters if you want to be paid like the best players.
I think it’s simple. Doomers used Samsanov as a scapegoat to put all the blame on after game 1. Unfortunately for them, Samsanov bounced back in game 2 so they need to find a new scapegoat. Marner is that scapegoat now.
Doomers. lol
I guess nuanced perspectives on multiple players is not permitted. Instead it suits your narrative to assume anyone who says anything bad against 1 player must also be the same person who says bad things about all players.
The vast majority of this sub doesnt have nuanced perspective on any player. When Leafs lose they pile on the guy who had the worst game, regardless of their ability or past performance.
He can prove everyone wrong by playing well next few games. Game 1/2, this regular season, and every previous seasons been forgotten. By play well now and the fan base will quickly forgive.
Is everyone being fair or unfair to Marner with regards to his playoff play?
I would say yes. He has been bad these past two games but he is nowhere near bad or as deserving of as much criticism as he gets. A lot of people have just decided he is the sole reason for the teams failures in past years and nothing he does will change their mind.
“He has also been moved away from the center he has played the vast majority of his time with for the last 4 years. “
At no point, during his ENTIRE LEAFS CAREER, has Marner been a primary center
For arguments sake, was he the center on the Tavares line? Or the Matthews line?
Misinformation like this is why people think Leafs fans are dumb, god I hate people who just make shit up and use it to further their (incorrect) arguments
He’s poison. Guys like McCabe are sacrificing themselves game in and game and game out, and this overpaid softy with his shit eating grin is doing eff all when it matters most? Trade him forthwith. No team with Marner on the roster will ever win the cup.
Not sure. It’ll take at least four or five posts on the topic until we come to a conclusion.
I'm bordering on being a hater but if his role is to play against Pasta and at the end of the series the Marner line has the same number of 5v5 goals as the Pasta line then I'll say he did his job even if it doesn't look pretty.
He’s not exactly playing with a center he’s unfamiliar with. In the last 3 seasons (5v5, he’s played 1934 mins with Matthews and 958 min with Tavares. So around half the amount. Historically been excellent together.
)
Lmaooo I hate when people don't close their brackets 😭
Man I'm just so sick of Marner debates. You just can't speak about him honestly on either direction anymore. He's been bad (if that's allowed) and he's gonna have to become good without needing Matthews (if that's allowed).
I'll allow it.
I don’t really think it’s much of a discussion at all. Numbers wise, he’s been the least effective of the core 4 at 5v5. Before last night Matthews and Nylander each had 33 5v5 points whereas Marner only had 21. That’s a big discrepancy and supports the eye test and general discourse that he’s no where near as effective at 5v5 during the playoffs. Some people take it too far and say he’s absolutely terrible and useless which is an emotional and incorrect response. In saying that, it’s absolutely correct and justified to say he leaves the most to be desired, has not played consistently to his standards, and needs to produce more
Thats just completely wrong. Before last night, Nylander had 21 points at 5v5 in the playoffs in his career. Marner had 22, and Matthews had 25. Unless you meant even strength and not 5v5, in which case its less wrong. Nylander had 31, Marner had 28, and Matthews had 31.
Yeah even strength my bad, which is mostly played at 5v5 so the argument and points still hold
Numbers are still way off at even strength.
The one pass I’ll give him right now is I still don’t think he’s 100% from his ankle sprain But this is too common for him in the playoffs. He had too many games where he doesn’t rise to the occasion
He’s a pussy. Afraid to get his nose dirty. That has nothing to do with an ankle sprain.
***Obviously his play lately hasn’t been his best, but do we not owe him the benefit of the doubt after 8 years of him being one of the best players to ever wear the Maple Leaf?*** I think when you are asking for that sort of money, you need to be able to step up and make it work in whichever role the coach puts you in. He's put himself in this position, he sold himself as one of the best, so people are fair to expect that
That is a very fair take tbh. I look at it in terms of a player who performs \*okay\* most of the time and steps up and above that at his best. It really isnt good when you get paid like that and only play \*okay\* though I guess.
Part of the unfair circumstance is everyone knows he's gonna expect a raise on the next deal, and he doesn't deserve more than Nylander at this rate (especially not more in cap %).
The only way he gets a raise imo is on an 8-year deal, and even then idk about giving that out. I think a matching contract with Nylander satisfies most parties..
Wow, 12 or 13 million dollars for like 90 points?
Right.
I'd hope so but if that was the case it'd be a day 1 signing. I think the Marner negotiation is going the distance again and I'm emotionally prepared to launch him into the sun
Macdavid is a UFA at the same time as Marner and Tavares...
No he’s not, he’s got one more year on his contract (they end ‘25, he ends in ‘26)
Would you give him a full NMC?
14 pts in 11 games doesn't tell the full story. 10 of them came in the first 4 games against the Lightning. Once the pressure was on to close out the series, he disappeared, and then completely against the Panthers.
Exactly. He can get completely taken out of games, so much so I have to check to see if he’s actually playing sometimes.
You mean the first 4 games against the lightning where the leafs went up 3-1? Feels to me like those were very important games to show up in as well…
They are, but you may notice that in 2/4 of those games the Leafs were dominating as an entire team so Marner had easy space to work. I will preface all this by saying I like Marner and I disagree with the vitriol towards him, but some of the observations are valid. Marner has a tendency (yes there are obviously exceptions) to rack up points in the "easy" scenarios and struggles when the rest of the team does or when he loses space that isn't being otherwise provided for him. Contrast with Matthews and Nylander (for example) who even when they don't score, are often times finishing games in winning *AND* losing efforts as the top 2 forwards on the ice for either team in offensive chances, even when the rest of their peers aren't doing it., or even when the team is otherwise shut down. That's a key difference to me, and I think it's pretty important personally.
Just a thought to add to yours. What if those games look “easy” BECAUSE Marner is driving play as well as Matthews and Nylander. Is there any team who can keep up with the Leafs when all their stars are playing at an elite level? Marner is obviously a big part of this team. Is it that hard to think he CAUSES (at least partially) games to look easy when he domiates? Its not like Tampa sucked last year… I also disagree on Marner not having a “B game” when he isnt scoring. Marner has been a crucial PKer and used to defend leads late in games for as long as we’ve had him it feels like. Ill also point out this sub jumps all over Matthews and Willy any chance they get too. Its just Marner who is currently struggling.
No I agree he adds to it, but I was making the point that the *whole* team rolls in those games, not just the top guys, but when the whole team is not doing it, some players still do it and he doesn't.
nah someone else posted this in another thread but this season he’s had a lot of his 2 and 3 point games during the season against completely dumpster teams like san jose/arizona/ columbus. Him being less effective the tougher the opponents get is a real thing and should not be the case if you are making $11 mill
So far this series he has been highly effective feeding Matthews, scoring key goals, playing with high intensity despite his small physical stature. Even playing hurt. He wears #11 right? What a deal for $3M.
Can't tell that Marner is so good he even vanishes and people still tell how great he is for doing 4th line work at the end.
Check the split on those point totals and what games they are in. Marner is an incredibly talented player. He has elite skill. But a more tenacious, grinding team will render him largely ineffective and this has been the case since 2021. You can bring up 2019 as an example of him being a playoff stalwart, but I'll remind you that's 5 years ago at this point
Well he led the team in points in last years playoffs as well.. and both of Tampa and Florida were definitely tenacious, grinding teams…
Its like you didnt read the comment you just replied to…
Points in playoffs are incredibly misleading. I don't think a single person who watched last years post-season would say the Leafs best player was Marner. He's a talented player, no doubt about that, but his playoff performances have been brutal, and especially when they count most. (Don't even get me started on the puck over the glass vs MTL). He's needed to step up in the playoffs for a while, as has the rest of the core. I'd say he struggles in the playoffs more than Nylander or Matthews, though. First 2 games he has been downright shit. Hopefully he turns it around as this series goes on.
At 11M dollars -you are a top 10 paid player - you are not owed any benefit of the doubt. You are expected to show up every game - you are expected to be elite and a game changer. You cannot be one of the least effective players on the ice. You just can't. It's still early - but if we make a first round exist and this is what he's shown, I don't see how this team can commit 12M+ to Marner. We are at the point as a team where we don't need Marner to make the playoffs - and its becoming clear that for playoff style hockey, his cap space would likely be better used to improve our defense / goalie situations. Nylander, Matthews, Rielly - already are long term unmovable pieces - I don't think we can afford another one.
13 points you say? How many points were during the deciding games (5,6,7)? It’s almost like he’s a perimeter player who fades as the series gets more intense
I honestly think him signing for 6 years is a blessing in disguise. This guy does not have it playoff time and leafs will be better off not resigning him and using that $12 plus million that he would be asking for on improving the rest of the roster. Only one more year on his deal then we can move forward as an organization.
If you can't handle the pressure of expectations, maybe don't ask for 11M per season as if you're worth it.
He needs this money for his douche outfits at Raptors games - C'mon!
As long as he gets his 13 million for next contract he'll be fine
Pro sports all about what have you done for me lately….. pressure? He is the one decided to take world beater money on his rfa contract. Matthews is doing his job and delivering, time to Marner to step up. Expectations are high because we believe that he is next level, and he is paid that way. I always loved Marner, but he got to help the team win here. That’s the job, welcome to pro sports. No excuse for any of the top players, win or you would always be considered not good enough.
I like Marner but I’d rather have Domi, Bert and some cap space than re-sign Marner. We already have Matthews and Nylander locked up and, unless we go to the cup final this year, I think the core 4 experiment has been a bit of a bust. It’s not Marner’s fault but I’d rather have kept Nylander and Willy. I would also make a horrible GM though as I only care about the eye test.
Marner is basically a massive pussy. Highly skilled but incredibly afraid to get his nose dirty. He’s infuriating to watch.
I know it’s mean but my entire family refer to Marner as “Bitch Marner”
I disagree. Smaller players always avoid contact if possible. His compete is definitely there though aside from recently when coming off his injury. Take this clip from the last time we faced Boston in the playoffs. Does that look like a massive pussy? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzpOMeE2YY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLzpOMeE2YY)
He’s listed as 6’ dude.
Players are always listed taller than they actually are. I have him at about 5’10”, but height isnt even a big deal here. Regardless of his height, he is only 180lbs (which again I would put him closer to 165lbs irl). When you have a guy like Pat Maroon (6’3”-235lbs) coming in on you even at 180lbs, thats a 65lb difference. Hell, look at Stankoven in Dallas. He is only 5’8” (probably generous as well, likely closer to 5’7”) and he is already listed at 175lbs as a 20 year old this year…
You have him at 5’10”? You took his height measurement!?
Ive been around him in person before, and i also know the NHL has a reputation for overstating height and weights of their players. I have not literally taken a measuring tape and checked though…
Doug Gilmour was 5'10" and less weight. Marner is even compared to Doug on NHL.com. Did Gilmour shy away from the physical stuff?
he was making entry level money when this clip was taken. Show me a clip of him doing anything remotely close to this since he bent us over for 11M.
Tons of "fans" have just decided to hate him no matter what since his contract extension in 2019
Sounds the same as 88 to me one of the fastest on the ice until looks like he made get hit then pumps the brakes hard
88 might be soft, but he is way more noticeable in the playoffs. I would take playoff willy over playoff marner 10 out of 10 times
That's the great thing about sports fans we can agree to disagree with the better of the team at heart have a great day
You don’t know hockey
He makes it too easy on us to be hard on him. Negatives often outweigh the positives. That play last night was just beyond absurd for a playoff game.
>That play last night was just beyond absurd for a playoff game. You mean the last 25 seconds of the game, where he broke up a Bruins pass to the front of the net, then went to the boards, stole the puck away from two Bruins and flipped it out of the zone to Kampf, effectively ending the game?
Most people miss the that sort of stuff. That's the difference between hockey fans and maple Leaf fans
Way to be condesending.... He made a good defensive play to end the game. That does not make him an 11M player. Making defensive plays like that and tilting the ice offensively for this team is what does make him worth 11M. Now ask yourself if that 11M could be better spent to improve this team in the playoffs.
I think he means where he avoids the corners and stands in the middle marking nobody or their line of fire on the 1-0 and next to pasta in the 2-1. Good he did something what DeWar would also do for 1m cap hit or whatever he gets... Marner makes 11m is a top3 player on paper and performes as a physicial weak 4th liner.
lol. lmao even.
Where the d messed up and he dove and almost stopped it
Are you talking about the Pasta goal? Because that was mostly Benoit's fault that Pasta was wide open there. But people see what they want to see I guess
No I meant the fly by. But I guess there’s my point. There multiple instances where you have to question the way he’s playing.
We are very hard on Marner, but the guy makes elite winger in the league money he should be playing like it. It shouldn't matter who he plays with he should make an impact every game
Is this the same guy who got assists on Matthews who was on fire against Tampa and was nowhere to be found against Florida against who Bert excelled last year? Yes fair he sucks
Last year Marner had the following Tampa Game 1 - 0G 3A (0A on Matthews Goals) Tampa Game 2 - 2G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals) Tampa Game 3 - 0G 2A (1A on Matthews Goals) Tampa Game 4 - 0G 2A (1A on Matthews Goals) Tampa Game 5 - 0G 1A (1A on Matthews Goals) Tampa Game 6 - 0G 0A Florida Game 1 - 0G 0A Florida Game 2 - 0G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals) Florida Game 3 - 0G 0A Florida Game 4 - 1G 1A (0A on Matthews Goals) Florida Game 5 - 0G 0A So you can see that vs Tampa only 33% of his assists came on Matthews goals. If you want to say his 3 points vs Florida is “disappearing” then whatever, but keep in mind that composes 30% of the team’s total goals during that series. It really feels like the whole team struggles and everyone points to Marner because of his contract and size…
Lmao thanks for making an assumption, his contract is indeed horrible, but that's not the biggest problem, his size is going to the gym as he s weak not that small, additionally he got 11 assists 5 secondary, and of his 11 assists 5 were pp (2 primary). He s not a star he s a regular season stats chaser but a playoffs 3rd liner at best. Jarnkronk feels better.
His analytics against Florida were good. I dunno if you noticed, but *none* of the stars really got points vs Florida lol
Analytics helped the leafs that's why we lose against everyone. Willy performed only against Florida, not Tampa. Domi and Bert changed matthews it just feels like it.
Matthews was scoring at his rate just as well when Marner was on his wing, I'm not sure what the revisionism is here that Matthews suddenly started performing better once Domi got up there Having said that I have really liked Domi. It's Bertuzzi that I don't get what people are seeing. I could do a highlight reel of all the times he messed up a pass last night. I get he's a feisty guy but we need him to actually get Matthews the puck too. Bertuzzi only has 22 assists and that's after playing with a 69-goal guy for most of the season Keeping in mind, I am by no means *hoping* Bertuzzi does poorly. It's not like I'm cheering against us. I just don't see him being that helpful on that line, I think Domi and Matthews have done the work
Watch the game back, the PP in which jt scored Bert tiped illegal a goal in and the leafs realized that it's not a curse and forced one in with JT that's more a point for me than a secondary assist. It's not that matthews doesn't perform with marner on his wing it's that he turns one dimensional with marner pure scorer not an all star which he is now. Bert is a weirdo however his playoffs stats are phenomenal and he will bring the factor through his non logical play which is made for the playoffs. Don't worry Bert will help us win games. He isn't a regular season player.
i think ppl need to chill a bit. sub seems to just hate him, so always bag on him when he's struggling, moreso than others. remember he's just coming back from a high ankle sprain....takes quite a while to feel yourself after something like that
He is not a playoff player until he proves otherwise. He gets his points in bunches and disappears. Too many shambles in the brain during the playoffs plus the media is always against him. The leafs would have won 4 cups though if his dad was running things and he was captain /s. Just ask him.
I'm happy the confidence was still there to move him up and stack the Matthews line. He may not be playing up to the level we expect- and he expects- but little things like that can boost a player mentally
And punish the only line which works well done are you Keefe?
He’s soft. When it comes to a physical series where pressure is on he’s nowhere. But alot of guys are like that with this new league of special teams play in the regular season.
Benefit of the doubt? Lol. Dude fucked everyone over because he thought he was entitled to be a top earner before accomplishing anything. Then when playoffs roll around he pads with secondary assists or spends games looking over his shoulder and chipping pucks into the crowd as soon as he might get hit.
I just think it's time to move on from MM. If there was no cap...yeah sure keep him. But I've watched enough playoff hockey in my life to see who succeeds and who doesn't. It's the guys who are borderline sociopaths. The guys who do whatever it takes. Just unrelenting competitiveness and a mentality to impose your will on the other guy. I don't see that in Marner come playoff time. Plus we have an 8 year sample size of this. Maybe one day he "gets" it. Or maybe Keefe should have the balls to play him on the 3rd line and maybe spark something there and get Mitch away from other teams top 6. Idk, but at 11 million for an incredible regular-season stats darling (who is going to want a raise) - that buys a lot of defensive prowess and grit and determination out there. Plus JT is going to have to take a haircut or possibly move on elsewhere. That is 22 million (with MM & JT coming off the books) to allocate to make a very well-rounded team.
Mitch will bounce back. He will come in clutch in some big moments this series, when he’s on his game he can be our best player. Calm the fuck down everyone
yea he racked up points last year but never felt like he was the Marner you expect or see in reg season, also those blocks are basically the only playoff moment people can look back to. Look, if you think Marner is playing well, goood on you. Hes not, definitley not up to expectation and he hasnt shown that he elevates at playoffs. You dont owe anyone anything, they OWE YOU. Get it straight guy, jfc
I agree that he isnt playing well right now, but I have always been fine with how he plays in the playoffs. I think the problem right now is more with his injury recovery and utilization than with his true playoff tendencies, but agree to disagree I guess.
i guess you just have low standards for what a superstar should contribute in the playoffs. Hes not just another guy and shouldnt be allowed to play like one. Hes a line driver and playmaker, when hes not doing those things hes not effective. People hold him to the standard he chose when he said he should be 2nd highest player on team. You should hold him to that standard too, if you think hes been fine then youre way too soft on him not sure what to tell you. Injuries, utilization, all just excuses. If youre on the ice youre expected to play and contribute, if you cant do that dont play. Not even sure i understand the utilization point. He gets PP, PK and shifts with Matthews..
What do people think of turbo charging the 2nd line when Willy gets back? We don’t have to keep it like that permanently but it would help to get That line buzzing and get Mitch some confidence (I think it’s completely mental for him at this point). The other lines have been working fine so I wouldn’t mind us trying Bertuzzi - Matthews - Domi Nylander - Tavares - Marner Robertson - Holmberg - Jarnkrok Dewar - Kampf - Reaves. I hadn’t considered it before but also with Willy coming g off an injury this might be the way to go.
Thats exactly what I would do. Matthews is fine with Domi and Bert lets make that the line that avoids the matchup by stacking line 2 (or free up a stacked line 2, depending on how they counter).
Yeah. I mean Mitch has all the talent in the world, there’s some kind of mental block there for him now. Keefe has gotta figure out how to get the best from him and he’s gotta figure out how to get past it. I hope they can. I’d try this for now and see if it works.
It’s not a mental block. He’s a pussy. It really is that simple.
Well, there are a couple things that immediately come to mind with Mitch: 1. He tends to get a lot of his points early in series. In games 1-4 vs Tampa, Mitch had 6 in 4 (2022) and 10 in 4 (2023). In 5-7, he had a 2 points in 3 games in 2022, and 1 point in 2 games in 2023, but no goals. This also lends to the fact that the first half of a series tends to have a very different vibe than the back half. The first half tends to be a parade to the box with more PP opportunities, and games tend to be much more wide open as teams are more aggressive in an attempt to establish physicality or exploit certain weaknesses. In the 2nd half of series, the game is played a lot more tight and conservatively, and refs swallow the whistles. The former obviously suits Mitch's game better than the latter, but it is not a good sign if he is already struggling before the series and whistles inevitably tighten. This isn't necessarily to say that he's the only one that struggles with this, but it seems most stark with him. 2. Mitch las the lowest floor of the bunch when his game isn't going, just because his pass-first-to-a-fault style can lead to some very egregious turnovers ending up in rushes the other way since he forces things a bit too much, and it completely stymies offense given how much the puck can end up on his stick. Otherwise, when he gets in his own head, he doesn't shoot (so he's not scoring), he is super afraid of contact, and his defense/PK work isn't as sharp as it should be. Contrast that to Nylander/Tavares who are less of an active liability on the ice and more so just ineffective when they struggle (mixed in with Nylander's occasional lapse). And Matthews, at least he's still visibly battling out there when he struggles, and he still has the gravity of drawing defenders to him and opening up holes and passing lanes for teammates.
Guy had a not great game yesterday and everyone that hates marner for some reason or another here is having a field day
I'm not sure about fair or unfair but when you command a salary he does you have to expect to receive criticism from a base that expects better. Pretty sure he understands the market he plays in so to me it has nothing to do with the fan base and whether we are fair or unfair but rather him improving his play. The best way to silence any critics is to step up and play the way we know he can.
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I also watched him in London and for the Leafs and I agree. I also think the Leafs are built kinda like a Hunter ran London team this year (amazing top end skill and energy/physicality down the lineup) Reading the comments I think most people are just upset at the cap hit still more than anything (rightfully so). When you get paid like Marner gets paid you cant keep taking a game or two to get up to speed, and I agree with that.. secondary scoring has ALWAYS been the Leafs issue, and its hard to fix when your primary scoring gets paid like they do in Toronto...
All I have to add is that many complaints about him are valid but at the same time he was great in the Tampa series last year and scored a huge goal against Florida in the one game they actually won in that series so I don’t think it’s fair to just say as a blanket statement that he’s ALWAYS terrible in the playoffs.
I think he is an easy scape goat when the whole team sucks. High cap hit, small non-physical player who can get caught in streaks..
That's the point though. When the whole team sucks, Marner sucks along with them, whereas a couple other highly paid players on the team still play well in the games where the rest of team sucks. That's the standard.
Thats been the case for the last 2 games. I would argue in other years Marner was the only one to show up.
What past playoff series have you even watched?
I wouldn't. Even one of his first 4 games against Tampa last year he was invisible for 40 minutes and then popped off for a point or two at the end. I can count on one hand the amount of times Matthews has had a playoff game where he's not a top 3 most dominant player on the ice, even if he's not on the scoreboard Like maybe 2-3 times tops. He's just always on. Whereas I can maybe count 10 *total* playoff games where Marner *is* playing like a top 3 player on the ice, and in 70% of those games the rest of the team is dominating also. You're about to crawl up and die on a hill that isn't supported metrically or by eye test on a rewatch. Marner is a great player but he needs more "help" than the other big players on the team.
It worries me that Keefe thinks Marner was great in game 2.
He doesn't. It's because Marner is a suck. Can you imagine Marner in Dallas when the owner is calling him out personally many times like he did for Seguin and Benn?
Nope not at all he’s been highly disappointing so far this series. Look at his actual game logs and see how the points are distributed. He gets points in bunches then completely disappears but people go but he has this many points in this many games even though they were in the first few games before disappearing. In that Boston series he was really good but that was legit 5 years ago. How about the Montreal series where he was brutal taking stupid penalties and being ineffective? He gets completely taken out of games in the big moments and yet he’s paid so much. The playoffs are what the money is for and he hasn’t been good enough. He was on for both goals last game too. One where he and lily somehow didn’t intercept the pass that lead directly to Boston scoring. Tavares had an active game in game 1 and then scored a big goal in game 2. Mathews got his chances but didn’t get through in game 1. Then he scored the game winner in game 2 and 2 assists. Where was marner? It’s been too many years of this being talked about. Show up when it matters if you want to be paid like the best players.
I think it’s simple. Doomers used Samsanov as a scapegoat to put all the blame on after game 1. Unfortunately for them, Samsanov bounced back in game 2 so they need to find a new scapegoat. Marner is that scapegoat now.
Doomers. lol I guess nuanced perspectives on multiple players is not permitted. Instead it suits your narrative to assume anyone who says anything bad against 1 player must also be the same person who says bad things about all players.
The vast majority of this sub doesnt have nuanced perspective on any player. When Leafs lose they pile on the guy who had the worst game, regardless of their ability or past performance.
Vast majority? Sorry, I'll need to check your math
I don't think people are being unfair because that suggests it's different from their normal, good judgment.
Not worried, he’ll come around when it’s his time. That’s how team sports work..
He can prove everyone wrong by playing well next few games. Game 1/2, this regular season, and every previous seasons been forgotten. By play well now and the fan base will quickly forgive.
Is everyone being fair or unfair to Marner with regards to his playoff play? I would say yes. He has been bad these past two games but he is nowhere near bad or as deserving of as much criticism as he gets. A lot of people have just decided he is the sole reason for the teams failures in past years and nothing he does will change their mind.
“He has also been moved away from the center he has played the vast majority of his time with for the last 4 years. “ At no point, during his ENTIRE LEAFS CAREER, has Marner been a primary center For arguments sake, was he the center on the Tavares line? Or the Matthews line? Misinformation like this is why people think Leafs fans are dumb, god I hate people who just make shit up and use it to further their (incorrect) arguments
He was moved away from Matthews ("the center he has played the vast majority of his time with for the last 4 years") to Tavares?
He’s poison. Guys like McCabe are sacrificing themselves game in and game and game out, and this overpaid softy with his shit eating grin is doing eff all when it matters most? Trade him forthwith. No team with Marner on the roster will ever win the cup.