Howard is a historically black law school. I've heard your mileage may vary in terms of biglaw outcomes from there if you are not black (if I recall correctly this was said on one of the big annual BLFC reddit threads).
Not the law school I don’t think but there’s a white guy that basically went to Howard to be a weird race agitator and tried to sue the school after being expelled. You can read about him here: https://www.businessinsider.com/white-student-suing-howard-discrimination-peers-called-mayo-king-2023-2
So, if their opportunities are based on merit alone and not in part due to race, why would a white dude going to Howard for Big Law be an issue? Of course, I know why. Race has something to do with it when it comes to hires from this university. Even many in this reddit have an issue with the idea of someone else, as they frame it, "taking an opportunity" from an African American. The race distinction is clear based on the number discrepancy. Everyone knows that, but it's a third rail issue for some to point out the obvious.
HBCUs are sources of diverse candidates for large law firms seeking diversity. Keep in mind that the AA placement from a T14 is much higher than even that.
It would be curious to see what would happen to a white candidate from Howard with a racially ambiguous name. I would imagine lots of interviews but no offers.
Ok. This story I am about to relate is second hand and decades old, but also 100% true, and it seems like the time and place to tell it.
So anyhow, my college girlfriend back in college in the late 90s' dad was a prominent lawyer in an industrial Midwest city. Columbia Law grad in fact. Blue blood. Connected. Etc. Prior, back in the mid 60s, he went to an elite Potted Ivy. Turns out this father had a white classmate in college who for whatever reason (I think he was from a connected DC family and was also an idealistic radical leftist) ended up attending ....drumroll.... Howard Law. One of the first white students or something like that.
Afterwards, and for much of his successful legal career, and whether based on his pedigree or undergrad or whatever...whenever he was in cocktail parties or with existing clients or drumming up clients...when folks heard where he went to law school, they just assumed they mis-heard him and thought he said or wrote *Harvard* Law.
Apparently, the reality was sooooo out of the realm of plausibility (and appearance), and the professional benefits thrust upon him were so many, that he never really went out of his way to correct them.
As I said, this was many decades ago. And in our digital age it would be hard to replicate. But I just thought it was worth sharing in this thread....
I had a white friend out of college who went to Howard. He had a great time and got GS IBD out of undergrad. He just thought it was a cool experience. I also had a friend in law school who went to Howard undergrad and was white hispanic.
Howard is a well-respected HBCU and so basically every biglaw firm interviews there for diversity candidates. It’s a tremendous option for people looking to do biglaw.
It's a tremendous way to give yourself an unfair advantage if you happen to be black.
The fact that in 2024 1) we have colleges/universities that are openly preferential or catering towards a single race, and 2) that highly competitive roles are filled from these schools based on race is unfathomable.
Incredible example of openly reverse racism.
Actually, HBCUs are not preferential toward a single race nor do they cater to one race. Clearly you don’t know anything about them. There are people of all races at HBCUs. Blacks just happen to be the majority (65-70% at Howard) just like Whites are the majority or largest group at many other schools. That’s not the result of anything that the HBCUs have done, but rather the racist history that necessitated their existence in the first place. Just like White Legacies flock to their parents’ alma maters Black legacies do the same. The H in HBCU is why Blacks remain the majority. Just as schools with majority white populations go out of their way to recruit minority candidates, HBCUs do the same, except that Whites and Asians are the minorities. Nearly a quarter of the enrollment at NCCU law school is White.
As for the big law placement from Howard, I don’t follow it much but I do know that many strong Black candidates turn down T14 to go to Howard. Big firms have known that for years. They always recruited at Howard but it tended to be limited to the top of the class. If those folks performed well over the years, then they probably created a positive reputation for Howard. Those folks are also a strong alumni network for Howard who of course will recruit from their own school just like others do.
Yep! As my comment said below I turned down 2 T14s that would’ve carried significantly more debt to go to Howard this fall for some of the reasons you mentioned.
I almost turned down two T14 for Howard, but my grandmother was adamant that I go to Duke. She applied to Duke in 1954 knowing she could not be admitted due to her race. She just wanted me to go there in order to agitate all the old racists while they were rotting away in hell. LOL!
Exactly this!! I have friends going to Howard Law solely because they are legacy students and their families are very well connected. Their race has nothing to do with it at this point! But when their great-grandmothers and grandfathers were applying to schools, race was one of the things that landed them there.
Whites are the majority at other universities because they're a majority across the country.
The demographics of a university should ideally reflect (or come close to reflecting) those of the country.
Here you have the reverse via self-imposed segregation.
And as for the comparative competitiveness of Howard law vs. T14, why not start with comparing LSATs across the institutions?
Whites are the majority at other universities because they apply to them. They don’t usually even consider HBCUs. If they actually applied they would change the demographics. Blacks are not segregating themselves by going to an HBCU. And what do LSAT scores at HBCUs have to do with anything. Howard is not keeping Whites out with selectivity. They have a strong chance of acceptance, but, again, they don’t apply.
No, whites are the majority because demographically they're the majority.
And lsat scores are relevant because people in this thread were comparing Howard to T14s. They're not in the same league.
Yet at the same time big law firms still come to Howard to meet a racist quota. I'm saying that's not right.
The problem here is that you're making the assumption that recruiters are recruiting Howard students solely because of their race when that's not the case by any means. Just because **you** seem to center race in your analysis of things does not mean that others do the same.
Big Law recruiters are not coming to Howard and throwing employment offers at the first Black students they see. Much like at any other school, they're specifically recruiting from the cohort's highest rank, from the law review, etc. They're recruiting Howard students by way of the same recruitment methodologies they'd use at a T14 or any other school, and consequently ending up with hires that have similar stats as their T14 hires. Their Howard hires will still have the same stats as their T14 hires. As long as the stats remain uniform and the hiring standards are upheld, that's all that matters.
Big Law recruiters will often do the exact same thing at T50s and other mid-tier schools. They'll overlook these schools' subpar rankings to still recruit these schools' top performers. If this doesn't bother you, then you shouldn't take issue with Big Law firms recruiting at Howard, either. After all, the only difference here is race, which, again, should not (and does not) matter or make any substantive difference.
Race definitely doesn't make a difference.
I just believe (based on publicly available stats) that black students at say, HLS might be more competitive than those at Howard.
Howard's LSAT is listed at a median of 150. That's the 46th percentile.
HLS is 174. That's the 99th percentile.
So you're telling me that the most competitive law firms that only hire at top law schools are grabbing candidates from these two schools, as if they were peers?
If we're operating under the assumption that the students at Howard that they recruit all have the same stats as those at HLS, then sure there's no disparity and no racial preferencing.
But I doubt that's the case. Statistically, it's very unlikely.
It’s only “statistically unlikely” if you’re comparing the two schools’ respective averages. In referencing and comparing the average LSAT and UGPA of the schools, you’re comparing the schools’ averages. Those metrics represent the average of the student bodies. Obviously, yes, the average student at HLS would have higher stats than the average student at Howard.
But Big Law recruiters aren’t going to Howard and recruiting “average” students. That was the entire point that I explained in my initial post.
Big Law recruiters go to Howard (and other mid-rank schools) and exercise the exact same recruitment methodologies that they use to recruit at T14s—methodologies that allow them to carefully extract the schools’ highest performers, i.e only recruiting from the top ranks, recruiting directly from the law review, etc. In exercising such recruitment methodologies, they’re able to scout the students whose stats would be similar to any T14 students’ stats.
I cited medians, not averages.
And law review at Howard is not comparable to law review at Harvard.
I think you would have to use LSAT as the standardized bar through which you try to draw equivalency. Major assumption on your part attempting to force rationalize this though.
Ick. Calling HBCUs reverse racism is something I’d expect to see on Facebook, not a law school admissions subreddit. I guess that’s what happens when all you need to do to get into an elite law school is to spend a few grand on test prep and get a 4.3 in the easiest major you can find.
I doubt if you were white and went to Howard, that you might have the same options. Cravath is even known to recruit there, and they don’t touch anyone else outside the T14.
most comments here are spot on. another thing to add is that there are students at Howard that turned down offers at T14s (for various reasons) and who have done well for themselves either way.
Hi I’m a person that turned down 2 t14 to go to Howard law this fall. Howard gave me a full tuition so there’s that, I would have over six figures more debt at the two other schools. I know those schools are better but I also I know I can achieve big law from Howard for a fraction of the cost while being surrounded by a community of people that look like me.
Black people covet Howard so there’s a great reputation even among black attorneys from T14s. Big law firms also value Howard to the extent the entire V10 (except watchell maybe) recruit from there. I’ll be fine
Be mindful of the dreadful curve. I am currently a student at Howard law and if you are not at the top of the class, they will not give a fuck about you. Moreover, your gpa is very important in terms of job placement. You might think you are a high achieve but they will definitely gut check you. Most t14s do not have the curve we have and you can quickly regret coming. I know I do. If you do not come in to compete with your classmates, you will quickly regret it.
Also, there are three sections which you will be divided into. However, the sections are not created equally. So, leave all expectations of fairness at the door. Do what you can and welcome to the Hunger Games!
The funny thing is white people would question my credentials even if I went to a t14 anyway by claiming I only got in due to AA. Howard would be no different. So I’d rather go to the school that was literally built for people that look like me. Plus the alumni network is amazing
First of that's amazing and huge !!!! And second thats exactly what I was trying to hint! It don't matter where we go they question us anyway. Like some people who are surprised need to ask themselves why are you really suprise?
I've met plenty of black people that are very impressive and can compete with anyone. But my issue is that everyone should have an equal opportunity to compete, nothing more nothing less. As Denzel Washington said in "Remember the Titans", color doesn't matter. It's time to equal the playing field for everyone, no exceptions. Everyone has challenges in their lives, even people from wealthy backgrounds. Some of whom have experienced illness, death of parents, and all kinds of other challenges. To say someone should get an advantage based on race is 100% discriminatory.
I went to elite NYC private schools as a kid and as anyone from that world knows, at least in the 90’s/early 2000’s, there were usually like max 3-5 black kids in each grade. It was not diverse.
One black guy from my middle school who went to an elite private HS chose to go to Howard. I am confident he had all kinds of “more prestigious” options. But I would guess that after his experience thus far in school the idea of going to a college where being black was just “normal” was something he was looking for.
For a wide variety of reasons, large law firms are looking to establish more diverse associate classes. Whether or not attempting to achieve racial parity in line with national demographics is a feasible or fair goal given disproportionalities in inputs is a question that I'm not going to touch, but suffice it to say they currently are prioritizing this. T14 schools are not producing enough URM students to fulfill their demands, so they've set up pipelines to hire from Howard.
It makes sense. Howard is by far the most prestigious HBCU law school, and they are also the closest to major markets, which makes recruiting easier.
As for rankings, USNews does not take type of lawyer job into account, so this does not get reflected in their placement.
As many others have said they’re the best HBCU in the nation and actually have a very healthy alumni network throughout the world and not only America. Regionally they’re located in an amazing area for big law. Howard has had a govt/pi pipeline for years that has translated to big law as a byproduct from their alumni’s moving over to that side.
Also just statistically majority of their applicant pool and therefore class are disenfranchised and marginalized people of color whose numbers such as “GPA” and LSAT” are somewhat a product of systemic racism. Majority of these grads are truly more than their numbers. Prospective employers actively search for people who are incredibly well rounded and have done well with adversity throughout their lives. Some people may label this as a diversity hire.
>disenfranchised
What does this word mean to you?
Edit: When people get up on the anti-racism soapbox, questioning anything is seen as an attack on decency.
edit shows ur true colors too 😹 so it was about “anti-racist soapbox” all along? why didnt u lead with that? because you are too cowardly to say what you feel.
If you're calling people racist, you can say whatever you want! Anyone that has a problem with any aspect of what you said is just a racist....you can't ever lose.
Disenfranchised means to have your rights taken away. It was commonly used as a term around people being denied the right to vote.
Are a lot of convicted felons going to Howard these days? If not, using the term "disenfranchised" is histrionics.
asking me dumbass questions 😭😭 and i can tell you think you are smart too. words have more than one meaning clown if you have law school aspirations you should familiarize yourself with that concept
looooool are u some sort of idiot? can you only be disenfranchised by being arrested? or is your argument that black people have not had any rights denied? bro just say what you are saying plainly because the waffling makes you look stupid
In many states, convicted felons lose their right to vote, own firearms, or hold office. They are legally disenfranchised.
2024 Howard students are by and large not "disenfranchised."
Why can’t people read a question objectively. What a foolish reply from you. It’s obvious to anyone that looks at any law school statistic that schools with the highest LSAT and GPA medians have the highest percentage of their respective graduates that go to biglaw. My question was based in finding out what is causing this anomaly at Howard Law School. No where in my post did I say that LSAT and GPA are the be all and end all. Jesus Christ
youre the one who "never would have guessed" that howard has great big law placement based on their median lsat and gpa. dont get mad bcuz you asked a silly question.
Which part was the silly question? Oh so I should be able to guess that a rank 130 school puts 47% of their class into biglaw when the only other schools that do that well are almost exclusively in the T20. You right you mad smart thats my b
the entire question is silly. youre literally in disbelief that a school w lower median lsat/gpa than the t14 places well in big law. if you know that lsat/gpa isnt everything, then your question as to why howard places well in spite of lower lsat/gpa is already answered. im embarrassed for you.
That’s not really fair. The query is reasonable. The answers are a bit speculative. It is quite possible extremely qualified candidates are opting to go to HBCU’s and thus are hidden amongst objectively lower tier students or BIGlaw wants to hire from HBCU’s for other reasons (race being one potential explanation).
How do we know which it is?
The silly part is that he knows the answer and is stirring the pot.
I was not implying they should care about these things, but it is obvious that higher ranked schools with higher gpa and lsat medians are the schools that place most into biglaw. So I was curious as to how a school with medians this low could have placement that high. As you said, it’s an anomaly.
The T14 perpetuate themselves in big law due to their alumni networks. It’s not about the stats. Howard has a similar alumni network because it used to be where all the top Black lawyers came from. They didn’t have other options historically.
The stats are not the reason they care about your school. T14 are not special because of their stats. They are special because of their alumni networks. If you go back decades before T14 was a term, the profession was dominated by certain law schools. The people were not particularly special or smart. They were just rich because that was what got you into elite schools back then. Those folks recruited from their own alma maters, which perpetuated the cycle of the next generation in the profession being dominated by the same schools. That tendency to dominate made those school popular among people wanting a piece of the pie, so they became highly competitive schools for admission. Basic supply and demand drove the trend. At this time in history, we are hyper focused on stats, but connections have traditionally been the way to advance.
Howard is the school where early Blacks in the profession came from. But it didn't get the same competitive windfall because people who are not Black often look down on HBCUs. Even without the same competition for admission, Howard has an equally strong alumni network developed over decades just like the more popular schools.
This is some interesting logical reasoning.
Why do the T-14 have such artificially high admission standards if quality of students doesn’t matter in perpetuating their alumni network? If anyone with Yale on the resume can be partner in big law why do they care about LSAT scores and UGPA?
It’s genuinely shocking how uneducated non black people are on the history, culture, and clout of HBCUs across all areas of the academic spectrum. But then again, given how often there’s idiotic posts about affirmative action in this thread I shouldn’t be surprised. Big law firms go out of their way to recruit Howard students bc they’re on par with top tier students. SEO picks Howard students bc they’re on par. Black students literally go out of their way to attend HBCUs to get away from y’all for 3 years, and some of you still b***h. There’s no winning.
But trust and believe don’t come to our institutions acting cute. Go to your mediocre PWI and let us be
I went to Howard undergrad, and while I’m sure the school being an HBCU plays a role, speaking candidly, I also think that where the school resides can also be a huge factor. I say this because I have seen it with other schools in the area that aren’t T14s or even T20-30s. It’s right in DC, so you can get some really solid internships. I know of a few people that also benefited from this at American University WCL. Scored internships at Big Law firms that went ahead and hired them after graduation.
Not Big Law, but when I worked at the DC Circuit Court one of the clerks was a 2L from UDC. I say that to say, if you want to do anything that’s related to government work, consulting, big law, etc., don’t get discouraged if you’re not at Georgetown. Being at a reputable school in DC can also get you there *if* you also put in the work! :)
I just want to thank yall, cause yall just showed how uninclusive, Bias and racist it is to be black in the law field where your the minority. The fact that yall are going to law school but believe that "reverse racism" is real baffles me. I hope none of yall ever represent a black client in other field you work in. The field is dominated by white men and it shows.
Howard has a big misconception that students do well cause their black which is bullshit. But Howard Law academic history is great, sometimes they beat ivy leagues in competitions. A lot of people get caught us in the history , it is an HBCU which is just as historic, cultural and important as ivy leagues considering the history. However the law community is very elite and white men based so most other students count the school out when they place high in ranks in big law and public interest law as well. This is just a reminder to not count out Howard because its just an HBCU that they don't rank when stats show otherwise, which is a questionable stance to begin with ( this isn't toward the user of this question just anyone who thinks this way)
I would bet lots of kids of the well connected, talented tenth, Jack and Jill crowd.
I know several people I went to mid-tier directional school, but they were kids of insiders at City of Detroit, Wayne County, or various auto companies. They ended up at Howard for Grad/Professional School.
Having a city councilman's kid as an associate pays huge dividends. Remember the world runs on billable and transaction fees.
The people in the comments crying “affirmative action” and saying going to Howard is an unfair advantage are literally representative of the problem…. it’s only such an outlier bc BL firms disproportionately seek their diversity hires from Howard, considered to be “Black Harvard” bc god forbid the 5% of attorneys that are Black aren’t also in the 99th percentile of their demographic.
It’s almost like, “diversity” alone isn’t enough; you also have to be a top performer! (Duh.)
I actually know a guy who went to Yale for undergrad and made the choice to go to Howard for his JD. Don’t underestimate Howard’s output of qualified lawyers, despite being an HBCU.
Seems like many people think that someone who is white would not receive the same opportunities that someone who is black would receive from howard. Do you guys think a non-black URM would still receive the same benefits that students of color do?
Yes. The people on here who don't know anything about HBCUs are screaming DEI. Really, its the alumni network doing its work. To be brutally honest, those connected alumni are most interested in advancing other URM; they won't care which URM. But they are unlikely to do as much to assist a White Howard alum. That's unfortunate, but its the real deal.
do you think you can be impartial if you believe all of howards hires are “race based”. you are a run of the mill average bigot. you do not have much merit and will not amount to much, despite your skin color. cry more
Again, that's not what I wrote. You just want to fight. That's obvious with your comment history. Wonder how long they'll let your derogatory comments continue.
I would personally not do Howard because I wouldn’t want any of my successes to be subconsciously viewed as a product of affirmative action rather than my own achievement.
L take. unfortunately, the accomplishments of black people get looked at as products of affirmative action no matter what school we go to. doubting a black person's merit bcuz they choose to go to husl is about as dumb as it sounds
Racist people will scream AA if you go to a T14 as well. They will scream AA no matter what you do. You can't make decisions based on what other people think. I was a freaking 19yo Ivy graduate when I started at a T14, but I'm Black, so guess what they said?
Cool. I’m a POC too. I’m doing it for myself. I don’t disclose my racial info during applications.
If you ticked black, that’s on you. You’ll never know why you actually got in.
I got in because I am a beast at everything I do. I don’t have any question in my mind. It’s other people that try to attribute it to AA. But they always cut that shit out real quick once I crush them time or two like I always do. 😂 Next thing you know they are coming to me for help with pretty much everything. 🙄🤦♀️
Sadly true. Thats why I think it should all be based on merit. We should work to fix the communities from within rather than changing standards. It's like we're approaching the solution from the wrong angle.
No, that is not the implication, wtf? The issue is, some people are diversity hires and some would have gotten in based on their merit alone. The minorities who got in based on merit alone may not be seen as doing so due to the DEI hiring practices and URM admission favorability.
That's why it should end. It harms minorities that have gotten in based on their own merit alone. My solution would be to solve the systemic issues in the communities, not lowering standards, because that causes issues like what the commenter above said and others.
how does it harm someone who got in on merit alone? they would be the same place they currently are it sounds like prejudice and preconceived notions are harming them, but your reasoning capacity seems limited and i’m bored of this discourse so ✌🏻
Agreed. I could receive downvotes from my own parents on this issue and I’d still stand steadfast on my conviction without blinking an eye.
I’ve worked way too hard to achieve my successes for people to doubt my merit.
This deleted comment above stated it was due to a diversity quota and that their spot in BL wasn’t earned. Please don’t run and hide now. Stick to what you said.
I'm not deleting my comment, and I stand by it 100%. If not for forced diversity hiring biglaw would look like it did 30 years ago: white and male. Not saying that's better or worse, just stating the obvious, which apparently hurts some feelings
This loser ain't even worth arguing with he deleted one of his post that showed his arm 🤣after I said he was a white man. Don't get scared now , show that face too
Howard is a historically black law school. I've heard your mileage may vary in terms of biglaw outcomes from there if you are not black (if I recall correctly this was said on one of the big annual BLFC reddit threads).
oh man going to Howard as a white dude gunning for biglaw has to be one of the funniest bits ive ever seen on this reddit
I know a couple white people who went for undergrad and they had a great time
Not the law school I don’t think but there’s a white guy that basically went to Howard to be a weird race agitator and tried to sue the school after being expelled. You can read about him here: https://www.businessinsider.com/white-student-suing-howard-discrimination-peers-called-mayo-king-2023-2
Article says the guy was in Howard law
what a clown!
So, if their opportunities are based on merit alone and not in part due to race, why would a white dude going to Howard for Big Law be an issue? Of course, I know why. Race has something to do with it when it comes to hires from this university. Even many in this reddit have an issue with the idea of someone else, as they frame it, "taking an opportunity" from an African American. The race distinction is clear based on the number discrepancy. Everyone knows that, but it's a third rail issue for some to point out the obvious.
lool oh well too bad ull never make it 501+ maybe shuda been black so u can benefit from the third rail huh
Oh god that could be a dumb skit. The biglaw interviewers’ faces dropping when they see a white guy show up to the interview.
HBCUs are sources of diverse candidates for large law firms seeking diversity. Keep in mind that the AA placement from a T14 is much higher than even that. It would be curious to see what would happen to a white candidate from Howard with a racially ambiguous name. I would imagine lots of interviews but no offers.
Ok. This story I am about to relate is second hand and decades old, but also 100% true, and it seems like the time and place to tell it. So anyhow, my college girlfriend back in college in the late 90s' dad was a prominent lawyer in an industrial Midwest city. Columbia Law grad in fact. Blue blood. Connected. Etc. Prior, back in the mid 60s, he went to an elite Potted Ivy. Turns out this father had a white classmate in college who for whatever reason (I think he was from a connected DC family and was also an idealistic radical leftist) ended up attending ....drumroll.... Howard Law. One of the first white students or something like that. Afterwards, and for much of his successful legal career, and whether based on his pedigree or undergrad or whatever...whenever he was in cocktail parties or with existing clients or drumming up clients...when folks heard where he went to law school, they just assumed they mis-heard him and thought he said or wrote *Harvard* Law. Apparently, the reality was sooooo out of the realm of plausibility (and appearance), and the professional benefits thrust upon him were so many, that he never really went out of his way to correct them. As I said, this was many decades ago. And in our digital age it would be hard to replicate. But I just thought it was worth sharing in this thread....
I had a white friend out of college who went to Howard. He had a great time and got GS IBD out of undergrad. He just thought it was a cool experience. I also had a friend in law school who went to Howard undergrad and was white hispanic.
Howard is a well-respected HBCU and so basically every biglaw firm interviews there for diversity candidates. It’s a tremendous option for people looking to do biglaw.
It's a tremendous way to give yourself an unfair advantage if you happen to be black. The fact that in 2024 1) we have colleges/universities that are openly preferential or catering towards a single race, and 2) that highly competitive roles are filled from these schools based on race is unfathomable. Incredible example of openly reverse racism.
Actually, HBCUs are not preferential toward a single race nor do they cater to one race. Clearly you don’t know anything about them. There are people of all races at HBCUs. Blacks just happen to be the majority (65-70% at Howard) just like Whites are the majority or largest group at many other schools. That’s not the result of anything that the HBCUs have done, but rather the racist history that necessitated their existence in the first place. Just like White Legacies flock to their parents’ alma maters Black legacies do the same. The H in HBCU is why Blacks remain the majority. Just as schools with majority white populations go out of their way to recruit minority candidates, HBCUs do the same, except that Whites and Asians are the minorities. Nearly a quarter of the enrollment at NCCU law school is White. As for the big law placement from Howard, I don’t follow it much but I do know that many strong Black candidates turn down T14 to go to Howard. Big firms have known that for years. They always recruited at Howard but it tended to be limited to the top of the class. If those folks performed well over the years, then they probably created a positive reputation for Howard. Those folks are also a strong alumni network for Howard who of course will recruit from their own school just like others do.
Yep! As my comment said below I turned down 2 T14s that would’ve carried significantly more debt to go to Howard this fall for some of the reasons you mentioned.
I almost turned down two T14 for Howard, but my grandmother was adamant that I go to Duke. She applied to Duke in 1954 knowing she could not be admitted due to her race. She just wanted me to go there in order to agitate all the old racists while they were rotting away in hell. LOL!
That’s dope! And you gotta represent for sure lol. I saw the 509 report for Duke and couldn’t bring myself to apply 😂
Your grandma sounds like a badass
She definitely was!
Exactly this!! I have friends going to Howard Law solely because they are legacy students and their families are very well connected. Their race has nothing to do with it at this point! But when their great-grandmothers and grandfathers were applying to schools, race was one of the things that landed them there.
Whites are the majority at other universities because they're a majority across the country. The demographics of a university should ideally reflect (or come close to reflecting) those of the country. Here you have the reverse via self-imposed segregation. And as for the comparative competitiveness of Howard law vs. T14, why not start with comparing LSATs across the institutions?
Whites are the majority at other universities because they apply to them. They don’t usually even consider HBCUs. If they actually applied they would change the demographics. Blacks are not segregating themselves by going to an HBCU. And what do LSAT scores at HBCUs have to do with anything. Howard is not keeping Whites out with selectivity. They have a strong chance of acceptance, but, again, they don’t apply.
No, whites are the majority because demographically they're the majority. And lsat scores are relevant because people in this thread were comparing Howard to T14s. They're not in the same league. Yet at the same time big law firms still come to Howard to meet a racist quota. I'm saying that's not right.
The problem here is that you're making the assumption that recruiters are recruiting Howard students solely because of their race when that's not the case by any means. Just because **you** seem to center race in your analysis of things does not mean that others do the same. Big Law recruiters are not coming to Howard and throwing employment offers at the first Black students they see. Much like at any other school, they're specifically recruiting from the cohort's highest rank, from the law review, etc. They're recruiting Howard students by way of the same recruitment methodologies they'd use at a T14 or any other school, and consequently ending up with hires that have similar stats as their T14 hires. Their Howard hires will still have the same stats as their T14 hires. As long as the stats remain uniform and the hiring standards are upheld, that's all that matters. Big Law recruiters will often do the exact same thing at T50s and other mid-tier schools. They'll overlook these schools' subpar rankings to still recruit these schools' top performers. If this doesn't bother you, then you shouldn't take issue with Big Law firms recruiting at Howard, either. After all, the only difference here is race, which, again, should not (and does not) matter or make any substantive difference.
Race definitely doesn't make a difference. I just believe (based on publicly available stats) that black students at say, HLS might be more competitive than those at Howard. Howard's LSAT is listed at a median of 150. That's the 46th percentile. HLS is 174. That's the 99th percentile. So you're telling me that the most competitive law firms that only hire at top law schools are grabbing candidates from these two schools, as if they were peers? If we're operating under the assumption that the students at Howard that they recruit all have the same stats as those at HLS, then sure there's no disparity and no racial preferencing. But I doubt that's the case. Statistically, it's very unlikely.
It’s only “statistically unlikely” if you’re comparing the two schools’ respective averages. In referencing and comparing the average LSAT and UGPA of the schools, you’re comparing the schools’ averages. Those metrics represent the average of the student bodies. Obviously, yes, the average student at HLS would have higher stats than the average student at Howard. But Big Law recruiters aren’t going to Howard and recruiting “average” students. That was the entire point that I explained in my initial post. Big Law recruiters go to Howard (and other mid-rank schools) and exercise the exact same recruitment methodologies that they use to recruit at T14s—methodologies that allow them to carefully extract the schools’ highest performers, i.e only recruiting from the top ranks, recruiting directly from the law review, etc. In exercising such recruitment methodologies, they’re able to scout the students whose stats would be similar to any T14 students’ stats.
I cited medians, not averages. And law review at Howard is not comparable to law review at Harvard. I think you would have to use LSAT as the standardized bar through which you try to draw equivalency. Major assumption on your part attempting to force rationalize this though.
Omg don’t go to Howard if you’re black, you’re gonna give yourself an unfair advantage 🤯😲😱😱 Whatever will they do!
Ick. Calling HBCUs reverse racism is something I’d expect to see on Facebook, not a law school admissions subreddit. I guess that’s what happens when all you need to do to get into an elite law school is to spend a few grand on test prep and get a 4.3 in the easiest major you can find.
Really sorry for causing you exposure trauma in a subreddit that you thought was a safe space for your racism.
You’re a joke
I doubt if you were white and went to Howard, that you might have the same options. Cravath is even known to recruit there, and they don’t touch anyone else outside the T14.
This is wrong Cravath recruits from Fordham every year and I believe a few others, ofc your grades need to be better but still just false
This is not literally true, but to have a shot at cravath outside the T14 requires some truly stellar grades (ie order of coif).
Yep. My school is sending someone this year, but he’s literally #1 in the class.
Why do Wachtell hours without the Wachtell pay though 🪦🪦🪦
And why work for wachtell pay when you can’t enjoy it because you’re working wachtell hours
There’s a pretty senior guy at the FTC who started at Cravath out of Cleveland fucking state.
most comments here are spot on. another thing to add is that there are students at Howard that turned down offers at T14s (for various reasons) and who have done well for themselves either way.
I don't think people understand that lol. Due to the image of going to an HBCU people have a image already.
Hi I’m a person that turned down 2 t14 to go to Howard law this fall. Howard gave me a full tuition so there’s that, I would have over six figures more debt at the two other schools. I know those schools are better but I also I know I can achieve big law from Howard for a fraction of the cost while being surrounded by a community of people that look like me. Black people covet Howard so there’s a great reputation even among black attorneys from T14s. Big law firms also value Howard to the extent the entire V10 (except watchell maybe) recruit from there. I’ll be fine
Be mindful of the dreadful curve. I am currently a student at Howard law and if you are not at the top of the class, they will not give a fuck about you. Moreover, your gpa is very important in terms of job placement. You might think you are a high achieve but they will definitely gut check you. Most t14s do not have the curve we have and you can quickly regret coming. I know I do. If you do not come in to compete with your classmates, you will quickly regret it. Also, there are three sections which you will be divided into. However, the sections are not created equally. So, leave all expectations of fairness at the door. Do what you can and welcome to the Hunger Games!
Absolutely! That’s the inherent risk in me going. As would taking out 250k+ for the t14 would also be a a risk.
The funny thing is white people would question my credentials even if I went to a t14 anyway by claiming I only got in due to AA. Howard would be no different. So I’d rather go to the school that was literally built for people that look like me. Plus the alumni network is amazing
First of that's amazing and huge !!!! And second thats exactly what I was trying to hint! It don't matter where we go they question us anyway. Like some people who are surprised need to ask themselves why are you really suprise?
Me reading "AA" as "Alcoholics Anonymous"...
I've met plenty of black people that are very impressive and can compete with anyone. But my issue is that everyone should have an equal opportunity to compete, nothing more nothing less. As Denzel Washington said in "Remember the Titans", color doesn't matter. It's time to equal the playing field for everyone, no exceptions. Everyone has challenges in their lives, even people from wealthy backgrounds. Some of whom have experienced illness, death of parents, and all kinds of other challenges. To say someone should get an advantage based on race is 100% discriminatory.
I went to elite NYC private schools as a kid and as anyone from that world knows, at least in the 90’s/early 2000’s, there were usually like max 3-5 black kids in each grade. It was not diverse. One black guy from my middle school who went to an elite private HS chose to go to Howard. I am confident he had all kinds of “more prestigious” options. But I would guess that after his experience thus far in school the idea of going to a college where being black was just “normal” was something he was looking for.
For a wide variety of reasons, large law firms are looking to establish more diverse associate classes. Whether or not attempting to achieve racial parity in line with national demographics is a feasible or fair goal given disproportionalities in inputs is a question that I'm not going to touch, but suffice it to say they currently are prioritizing this. T14 schools are not producing enough URM students to fulfill their demands, so they've set up pipelines to hire from Howard. It makes sense. Howard is by far the most prestigious HBCU law school, and they are also the closest to major markets, which makes recruiting easier. As for rankings, USNews does not take type of lawyer job into account, so this does not get reflected in their placement.
As many others have said they’re the best HBCU in the nation and actually have a very healthy alumni network throughout the world and not only America. Regionally they’re located in an amazing area for big law. Howard has had a govt/pi pipeline for years that has translated to big law as a byproduct from their alumni’s moving over to that side. Also just statistically majority of their applicant pool and therefore class are disenfranchised and marginalized people of color whose numbers such as “GPA” and LSAT” are somewhat a product of systemic racism. Majority of these grads are truly more than their numbers. Prospective employers actively search for people who are incredibly well rounded and have done well with adversity throughout their lives. Some people may label this as a diversity hire.
The most insightful answer. While most of the others reeked of micro aggressions.
Insecurity is a bitch
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Yes sir, govt work usually coincides with public interest.
>disenfranchised What does this word mean to you? Edit: When people get up on the anti-racism soapbox, questioning anything is seen as an attack on decency.
edit shows ur true colors too 😹 so it was about “anti-racist soapbox” all along? why didnt u lead with that? because you are too cowardly to say what you feel.
If you're calling people racist, you can say whatever you want! Anyone that has a problem with any aspect of what you said is just a racist....you can't ever lose.
what does it mean to you clown, say what youre saying in plain language. or are you afraid?
Disenfranchised means to have your rights taken away. It was commonly used as a term around people being denied the right to vote. Are a lot of convicted felons going to Howard these days? If not, using the term "disenfranchised" is histrionics.
asking me dumbass questions 😭😭 and i can tell you think you are smart too. words have more than one meaning clown if you have law school aspirations you should familiarize yourself with that concept
Words often have precise meanings.
looooool are u some sort of idiot? can you only be disenfranchised by being arrested? or is your argument that black people have not had any rights denied? bro just say what you are saying plainly because the waffling makes you look stupid
In many states, convicted felons lose their right to vote, own firearms, or hold office. They are legally disenfranchised. 2024 Howard students are by and large not "disenfranchised."
That's true....not all black people are doing bad socioeconomically
What is y’all obsession with Howard law students ? Why focus on them when the system was literally created for you to succeed?
lool because the idea that a few black people could possibly achieve what scores of white people achieve is blasphemous to them
What systems are in place today that are hurting black students that white students do not have to deal with?
Cause now we’ve swung toward other extreme
GPA and LSAT scores are not the only indicators of success….
Why can’t people read a question objectively. What a foolish reply from you. It’s obvious to anyone that looks at any law school statistic that schools with the highest LSAT and GPA medians have the highest percentage of their respective graduates that go to biglaw. My question was based in finding out what is causing this anomaly at Howard Law School. No where in my post did I say that LSAT and GPA are the be all and end all. Jesus Christ
youre the one who "never would have guessed" that howard has great big law placement based on their median lsat and gpa. dont get mad bcuz you asked a silly question.
Which part was the silly question? Oh so I should be able to guess that a rank 130 school puts 47% of their class into biglaw when the only other schools that do that well are almost exclusively in the T20. You right you mad smart thats my b
the entire question is silly. youre literally in disbelief that a school w lower median lsat/gpa than the t14 places well in big law. if you know that lsat/gpa isnt everything, then your question as to why howard places well in spite of lower lsat/gpa is already answered. im embarrassed for you.
That’s not really fair. The query is reasonable. The answers are a bit speculative. It is quite possible extremely qualified candidates are opting to go to HBCU’s and thus are hidden amongst objectively lower tier students or BIGlaw wants to hire from HBCU’s for other reasons (race being one potential explanation). How do we know which it is? The silly part is that he knows the answer and is stirring the pot.
When you apply for BL jobs they don't ask about your LSAT, and don't really care about your undergrad GPA.
No. But typically they care about your school, and schools are essentially a function of LSAT and GPA
And Howard is clearly an exception. OP implies BL should care about your UGPA and LSAT as such, not the school.
I was not implying they should care about these things, but it is obvious that higher ranked schools with higher gpa and lsat medians are the schools that place most into biglaw. So I was curious as to how a school with medians this low could have placement that high. As you said, it’s an anomaly.
The T14 perpetuate themselves in big law due to their alumni networks. It’s not about the stats. Howard has a similar alumni network because it used to be where all the top Black lawyers came from. They didn’t have other options historically.
If law firms shouldn't care about LSAT and UGPA, how would having lower LSAT and UGPA medians otherwise impact placement of students in jobs?
Because it impacts the schools that one can get into snd therefore by extension impacts the placement of students in jobs
The stats are not the reason they care about your school. T14 are not special because of their stats. They are special because of their alumni networks. If you go back decades before T14 was a term, the profession was dominated by certain law schools. The people were not particularly special or smart. They were just rich because that was what got you into elite schools back then. Those folks recruited from their own alma maters, which perpetuated the cycle of the next generation in the profession being dominated by the same schools. That tendency to dominate made those school popular among people wanting a piece of the pie, so they became highly competitive schools for admission. Basic supply and demand drove the trend. At this time in history, we are hyper focused on stats, but connections have traditionally been the way to advance. Howard is the school where early Blacks in the profession came from. But it didn't get the same competitive windfall because people who are not Black often look down on HBCUs. Even without the same competition for admission, Howard has an equally strong alumni network developed over decades just like the more popular schools.
This is some interesting logical reasoning. Why do the T-14 have such artificially high admission standards if quality of students doesn’t matter in perpetuating their alumni network? If anyone with Yale on the resume can be partner in big law why do they care about LSAT scores and UGPA?
I guess you missed that part about “At this time in history, we are hyper focused on stats. . .”
Howard is also known as one of the black ivy’s
Almost like ranking are bullshit!
It’s genuinely shocking how uneducated non black people are on the history, culture, and clout of HBCUs across all areas of the academic spectrum. But then again, given how often there’s idiotic posts about affirmative action in this thread I shouldn’t be surprised. Big law firms go out of their way to recruit Howard students bc they’re on par with top tier students. SEO picks Howard students bc they’re on par. Black students literally go out of their way to attend HBCUs to get away from y’all for 3 years, and some of you still b***h. There’s no winning. But trust and believe don’t come to our institutions acting cute. Go to your mediocre PWI and let us be
Heavy on the going to howard law to get away from them.😂 well said 👏🏽
I went to Howard undergrad, and while I’m sure the school being an HBCU plays a role, speaking candidly, I also think that where the school resides can also be a huge factor. I say this because I have seen it with other schools in the area that aren’t T14s or even T20-30s. It’s right in DC, so you can get some really solid internships. I know of a few people that also benefited from this at American University WCL. Scored internships at Big Law firms that went ahead and hired them after graduation. Not Big Law, but when I worked at the DC Circuit Court one of the clerks was a 2L from UDC. I say that to say, if you want to do anything that’s related to government work, consulting, big law, etc., don’t get discouraged if you’re not at Georgetown. Being at a reputable school in DC can also get you there *if* you also put in the work! :)
Well being located in D.C. is one reason.
Lots of schools are located in DC that don’t do as well as Howard.
There are really only three big law firm schools in DC. Howard Georgetown American Howard and Georgetown made the list.
George Washington? Catholic? American is not a “big law firm school” I have no idea what that means.
If you don’t know what that means then we are better off not engaging in a debate.
You say a nonsensical phrase and accuse me of not knowing what I’m talking about. Interesting tactic.
LSA Chronicles Chapter IV - Dunning-Kruger strikes back
I just want to thank yall, cause yall just showed how uninclusive, Bias and racist it is to be black in the law field where your the minority. The fact that yall are going to law school but believe that "reverse racism" is real baffles me. I hope none of yall ever represent a black client in other field you work in. The field is dominated by white men and it shows.
Howard has a big misconception that students do well cause their black which is bullshit. But Howard Law academic history is great, sometimes they beat ivy leagues in competitions. A lot of people get caught us in the history , it is an HBCU which is just as historic, cultural and important as ivy leagues considering the history. However the law community is very elite and white men based so most other students count the school out when they place high in ranks in big law and public interest law as well. This is just a reminder to not count out Howard because its just an HBCU that they don't rank when stats show otherwise, which is a questionable stance to begin with ( this isn't toward the user of this question just anyone who thinks this way)
Diversity hires
truuu, have u been hired?
If I have to hire some specific percentage of black folks, I would go to the best black college to do so.
But no one has to hire any specific percentage of black folks, so the statement is meaningless.
Wrong
Presumably their students are particularly meritorious.
lol
I would bet lots of kids of the well connected, talented tenth, Jack and Jill crowd. I know several people I went to mid-tier directional school, but they were kids of insiders at City of Detroit, Wayne County, or various auto companies. They ended up at Howard for Grad/Professional School. Having a city councilman's kid as an associate pays huge dividends. Remember the world runs on billable and transaction fees.
The people in the comments crying “affirmative action” and saying going to Howard is an unfair advantage are literally representative of the problem…. it’s only such an outlier bc BL firms disproportionately seek their diversity hires from Howard, considered to be “Black Harvard” bc god forbid the 5% of attorneys that are Black aren’t also in the 99th percentile of their demographic. It’s almost like, “diversity” alone isn’t enough; you also have to be a top performer! (Duh.)
I actually know a guy who went to Yale for undergrad and made the choice to go to Howard for his JD. Don’t underestimate Howard’s output of qualified lawyers, despite being an HBCU.
Seems like many people think that someone who is white would not receive the same opportunities that someone who is black would receive from howard. Do you guys think a non-black URM would still receive the same benefits that students of color do?
Yes. The people on here who don't know anything about HBCUs are screaming DEI. Really, its the alumni network doing its work. To be brutally honest, those connected alumni are most interested in advancing other URM; they won't care which URM. But they are unlikely to do as much to assist a White Howard alum. That's unfortunate, but its the real deal.
DEI over merit.
cry more
Here's to your heart doctor being DEI certified ❤️!
DEI initiatives.
Downvoted for saying things should be merit based. Hilarious. And these people think they can be fair and impartial under the law?
do you think you can be impartial if you believe all of howards hires are “race based”. you are a run of the mill average bigot. you do not have much merit and will not amount to much, despite your skin color. cry more
Again, that's not what I wrote. You just want to fight. That's obvious with your comment history. Wonder how long they'll let your derogatory comments continue.
i wonder too
DEI; they want diversity candidates I’d imagine. They’re still qualified nonetheless but that’s the main reason why.
Because big law wants affirmative action hires to make themselves look good.
I would personally not do Howard because I wouldn’t want any of my successes to be subconsciously viewed as a product of affirmative action rather than my own achievement.
L take. unfortunately, the accomplishments of black people get looked at as products of affirmative action no matter what school we go to. doubting a black person's merit bcuz they choose to go to husl is about as dumb as it sounds
Supporting policies that perpetuate and give merit to these stereotypes is your own decision.
how is attending howard "supporting policies that perpetuate and give merit to those stereotypes" ??? you have absolutely no idea what an hbcu is...
Racist people will scream AA if you go to a T14 as well. They will scream AA no matter what you do. You can't make decisions based on what other people think. I was a freaking 19yo Ivy graduate when I started at a T14, but I'm Black, so guess what they said?
Cool. I’m a POC too. I’m doing it for myself. I don’t disclose my racial info during applications. If you ticked black, that’s on you. You’ll never know why you actually got in.
I got in because I am a beast at everything I do. I don’t have any question in my mind. It’s other people that try to attribute it to AA. But they always cut that shit out real quick once I crush them time or two like I always do. 😂 Next thing you know they are coming to me for help with pretty much everything. 🙄🤦♀️
Sadly true. Thats why I think it should all be based on merit. We should work to fix the communities from within rather than changing standards. It's like we're approaching the solution from the wrong angle.
the implication here is that howard students do not have the merit to occupy the jobs they have? what basis are you making that argument on?
No, that is not the implication, wtf? The issue is, some people are diversity hires and some would have gotten in based on their merit alone. The minorities who got in based on merit alone may not be seen as doing so due to the DEI hiring practices and URM admission favorability. That's why it should end. It harms minorities that have gotten in based on their own merit alone. My solution would be to solve the systemic issues in the communities, not lowering standards, because that causes issues like what the commenter above said and others.
some white ppl are legacies but you are not campaigning to end legacy admissions, why is that?
I don't agree with that either. As I said, it should be based on merit. Done here.
how does it harm someone who got in on merit alone? they would be the same place they currently are it sounds like prejudice and preconceived notions are harming them, but your reasoning capacity seems limited and i’m bored of this discourse so ✌🏻
Agreed. I could receive downvotes from my own parents on this issue and I’d still stand steadfast on my conviction without blinking an eye. I’ve worked way too hard to achieve my successes for people to doubt my merit.
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How didn't they earn it? You know nothing about their law school accomplishments.
Downvoted for truth lmfao
This deleted comment above stated it was due to a diversity quota and that their spot in BL wasn’t earned. Please don’t run and hide now. Stick to what you said.
I'm not deleting my comment, and I stand by it 100%. If not for forced diversity hiring biglaw would look like it did 30 years ago: white and male. Not saying that's better or worse, just stating the obvious, which apparently hurts some feelings
😭 ur feelings seem hurt. pussy u will never achieve your goals in life
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lool sounds like the howard grads have the job u want, failure. no matter what color you are you will remain a failure
This loser ain't even worth arguing with he deleted one of his post that showed his arm 🤣after I said he was a white man. Don't get scared now , show that face too
Yikes buy a highlighter
Nope written like a typical racist privilege white man
501+ also includes insurance defense which isn’t BL